February, 1977
Morning Walk

February 1, 1977, Bhuvaneśvara
Prabhupāda: ...matter and spirit. Why these scientists cannot understand?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're somehow confused.
Prabhupāda: Hm? That means less intelligent.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We need to show the alternative.
Prabhupāda: No, a child can see there are two things, that what is the difference between a living man and dead man. So my father was living one moment before. Now he is dead. The something is missing. The two things are there. Where is the difficulty? And these big, big scientists, they cannot understand. How less intelligent they are. Immediately understood two things, but something is missing.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Somehow they have developed this false understanding that everything can be reduced to atoms and molecules.
Prabhupāda: That is still less intelligence, still less intelligence. Kartāham iti manyate.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because life is something which is beyond experimental knowledge...
Prabhupāda: That means they do not know. Say that, "beyond experimental knowledge" or "beyond your capacity."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Still, they are hesitant to say that.
Prabhupāda: That is their poor fund of knowledge. A gentleman will accept, "Yes, we do not know." But they, in round about way, in order to keep their position, they'll bluff. That is most dangerous, bluffing.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's the difficulty.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, that is the... If one wants to be cheated and wants to cheat others, you cannot... Sarpaḥ krūraḥ khalaḥ krūraḥ. There are crooked living entities; one who is snake, and one is man. So you can control the snake, but you cannot control this rascal crooked man. That is very difficult. Khalaḥ kena nivāryate. He'll remain crooked, however you say. I told you that story? Scissor? Scissor? Yes. Because he's human being, he'll persist, and the other one, the animal, you can bring her, bring that animal under control. But because he is human being, you cannot bring him under control. He will persist.
Gurukṛpā: What was that story of Caesar?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Tell him.
Satsvarūpa: Scissors. Two men were arguing...
Gurukṛpā: Oh, the scissors.
Prabhupāda: Scissor logic.
Devotee: What is that?
Satsvarūpa: One man said a knife was used...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: ...and the other said, "No, it was a scissor that was used." And they began arguing back and forth, and finally one man who held that it was a knife, he threw the other man in the river...
Prabhupāda: That "You accept that it is done by scissor." So he said, "No, I won't tolerate." Then he pushed him in the water. Then he was doing like this. (laughter) Scissor logic.
Bhāgavata: Argumentum vaculam.
Prabhupāda: That was used. He was put in the water. "Either you accept or I shall push you in the water." "No, I'll not accept." (laughter) So these rascals are like that. They are failure. They cannot. Still, they'll do, (laughter) the so-called scientists.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have an international society for doing that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They must combine. Otherwise there is no place for them. As soon as they accept that there is something beyond physical, then they'll have to accept God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Just like when we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, then they're very amused.
Prabhupāda: That is...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "What is it? If it is nonphysical nonchemical, then what it is?" They inquire.
Prabhupāda: Spiritual.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, but...
Prabhupāda: That means they have to accept two things—material and spiritual. [break] ...little difficult. Therefore we have to understand from the authority. The same argument, that you have to understand who is your father from the mother. There is no other... [break] ...Kṛṣṇa says in the beginning, tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: [Bg. 2.13] "The real living being is within this body, and he's changing." We have to accept. There is no experimental... [break] Because they are not sober... A sober man does not hesitate. Accept. Dhīras tatra... Therefore this word has been used. Rascal cannot understand. So indirectly one who does not understand, he's a rascal number one. That's all.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They have the demoniac mentality.
Prabhupāda: Just like mother says, "He is your father." Still, he'll not accept. Rascal number one. There is no other way. Huh? He is searching after his father. Mother says, "My dear boy, here is your father." "No, I don't believe. No." He's a rascal number one.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They're obstinate.
Prabhupāda: Obstinate. That scissors philosophy. There is no other way to understand it, but he'll not accept. That is his misfortune. Mūḍha. Bokā. And our problem is that these bokās, rascals, they are leading the society. And they are suffering. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. He's blind. We are also blind. And they're leading us. What will be our consequence? And we are losing the chance of human body to understand what is spirit, what is matter, what is God. We're losing everything. Very precarious condition. These rascals will not allow to understand real thing. That is the position. Otherwise what we have got to do with these rascals? But because they are taking some position, the whole populace is misguided. Means they are losing the chance of this human body. Suicided. [break]
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Amongst the scientists, there are many who are actually against this concept that life is something chemical or physical. But they are somehow afraid of speaking outside...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...even among their colleagues.
Prabhupāda: Because these rascals will boycott them.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Once they speak out, then maybe they'll not get grant from the government.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So somehow they are hesitant to speak out.
Prabhupāda: That is the position. And I have heard that among the scientists' society, if somebody speaks of God he's immediately rejected.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. Just like, for example, NASA this, what is it? Aeronautics and Space Institute, they are applying a lot of grants especially to the study of the origin of life from chemicals and all these research schemes. They are spending billions of dollars. But once...
Prabhupāda: See. How foolish. Billions of dollars they are spending for a false thing, and they are educating. Durāśayā bahir-artha-māninaḥ. (chuckling) It is stated in the SB.. They're proposing something which is not the fact, which will never be possible. still, they'll do.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In fact, there's one member from here from India, he's in Bombay, that Atomic Research Institute. He's one of the (indistinct) members in this study of the origin of life from chemicals. And if it's possible we would like to give a lecture there in the...
Prabhupāda: He is talking nonsense also?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: All of them.
Prabhupāda: A nonsense society. "International Society of Nonsense."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Their theory is that they know this much...
Prabhupāda: I think, perhaps, we have detected first that these are rascals.
Gurukṛpā: You have detected.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Gurukṛpā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Nobody before tried to... (chuckling) So...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Nobody's saying as boldly as Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: So if I would not have students like you, they would have taken me as crazy man. But now I have engaged you to prove them rascals. That is my ambition. [break] ...life from matter.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Before 1828 in the history of chemistry, there was these scientists. They thought that something, what happens in the body, in the living body, is different than chemistry in the physics. That is called vital theory.
Prabhupāda: No, Bhagavad-gītā says, nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ [Bg. 2.23]. So what is there within the physical world that is not burned by fire? Where is that thing? But these rascals have no knowledge. It is clearly said indirectly. This is called negative definition: "It is not this." And because he has no brain to understand, so therefore Kṛṣṇa is explaining in the negative way that "You cannot cut by any weapon; you cannot burn it; it is never dried up." Because any physical thing, it can be cut, it can be dried up, it can be burned, it is just opposite. So many ways He has described, but the rascal will not accept. Find out what is that which is never burned. Anything you take, even big, big iron ore, they're burning. And it is clearly said, "It is not burned." Therefore they are thinking there is no living being in the sun planet. Kṛṣṇa says, imaṁ vivasvate yogam. I told... This is nonbeliever class, rascal class.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then in 1828 this German chemist whose name is Frederick Muller, he synthesized, it is called urea. Urea is a chemical that comes out of urine. It's normally in urine from..., called inorganic compounds. So he announced that there's nothing strange about the organic world that happens in the living system. So from that time onwards they thought that life can be studied in terms of chemistry. But it is already 150 years since that theory but nothing happened. Nothing's understood.
Prabhupāda: That I have already discussed, that from orange tree you can get that acid, citric acid?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Citric acid.
Prabhupāda: But from citric acid, you cannot get orange tree. That is not possible. A living tree can produce citric acid chemical, but citric acid cannot produce a living... Therefore chemical comes from living being, not the living being comes from the chemical. This is the conclusion.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Now we are in a better position because this Khorana, he just synthesized this gene last month. So now, with the synthesis of this gene, nothing is happening. Because this is what they thought: once they synthesize this, they will be able to understand life in terms of chemistry. But nothing is understood, though it has been synthesized.
Prabhupāda: Failure.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So it has been completely failed. So now they are thinking about something else, that "Maybe what we thought was all wrong."
Prabhupāda: All wrong. Prove that. This is all wrong.
Gurukṛpā: They won't speak up or they'll lose their jobs.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: No. So they're coming around. When we say life is nonphysical and nonchemical, this is very touchy word which they don't like to hear in the beginning.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, "nonphysical." Nainaṁ chindanti śastrāṇi nainaṁ dahati pāvakaḥ, nainaṁ śoṣayati āpaḥ [Bg. 2.23]. Everything, five elements, material... It has nothing to do with these five elements, clearly said in the Bhagavad-gītā. It is beyond this. Here whatever you find is kṣitir āpaḥ tejaḥ marud vyomā: earth, water, air, fire. That's all. But beyond that, it is not physical. And at last, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. Everything is there. So I was confident in the statement of Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore I strongly stressed, "This is all wrong." I believed completely in the words of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. I never experimented. But I know what Kṛṣṇa says is completely right.
Yaśodānandana: Yasmād kṣaram atito 'ham akṣarād atito 'ham.(?) One who knows Kṛṣṇa knows everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. If you simply study Kṛṣṇa, then you'll study everything. Janma karma ca me divyaṁ yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes immediately liberated. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. He becomes competent to enter in the spiritual world and associate with Kṛṣṇa.
Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, just like that story with the scissors, how can we force the scientists to accept Kṛṣṇa and the Bhagavad-gītā. How can we force the scientists to accept Bhagavad-gītā? The problem seems to be...
Prabhupāda: No, if it is a fact, you can force, if it is a fact. And if it is not fact, then it is obstinacy. If it is reality, you can force, just like the father forces the child, "Go to school." Because he knows without education his life will be frustrated, so he can force. I was forced. I was not going to school. Yes. My mother forced. My father was very lenient. My mother forced me. She kept one man especially to drag me to the school. So force is required.
Gurukṛpā: But that is the authority. Your parents were your authority.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gurukṛpā: But they don't accept us as authority. They say, "I'm equal to you. Actually..."
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness, another foolishness. Father-mother, natural guardian, they can force.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have to show that, the higher understanding...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...the higher part of knowledge.
Prabhupāda: The child may be foolish but father-mother cannot see that their child will remain a fool. He can force. Government also, why there is military force? Why there is police force? If you want to be outlaw, then you'll be forced to accept the law. Force is required.
Devotee (1): But first the child has to see that there is some benefit from going to school.
Prabhupāda: Child cannot see. He's a rascal. He should be beaten with shoes. Then he will see. The child cannot see. Putraṁ ca śiṣyaṁ ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet: "Sons and disciples should be always chastised." That is Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. "Never pat them. Lālane bahavo doṣās tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ... "If you pat, then he'll be spoiled. And if you chastise him, he'll come out a very nice person. Therefore, either disciple or son, they should be always chastised." This is the injunction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. There is no question of patting them.
Gurukṛpā: People want to be flattered. They don't want to be told very strongly.
Prabhupāda: And that is the position of disciples. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, guru more mūrkha dekhi' [Cc. Ādi 7.71]. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was God Himself, and He said that "My Guru Mahārāja saw me a fool rascal number one." Chastisement. That is required. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, a great moral instructor. He has advised, tāḍayen na tu lālayet: "Always chastise them. Otherwise they'll be spoiled."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: The intelligent boy knows that, that chastisement is mercy.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Devotee (2): The scientists are saying that instead of everything coming from the micro organism, instead of that happening now, that it's coming from man. Life is created from man.
Prabhupāda: Then life is life. Life coming from life.
Devotee (2): But they're afraid to tell everybody publicly because it is in all the history books and the children will be effected by it. So they say it will be at least ten more years before the truth is out, that actually Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme in the textbooks in the schools.
Prabhupāda: No, if they are afraid of putting the real truth, how they are scientists?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They are cheaters.
Prabhupāda: Cheaters. Here a scientist said that. That is more valuable.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's another aspect they call logical positivism...
Prabhupāda: So you know all these things. Dedicate your life to turn over all these rascals. You can do that. You are in a position. And present this life is from life to the..., they have Nobel Prize. Yes. You challenge. Will it not be a great challenge?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Even the greatest challenge...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...in science. Everybody's saying the other, and we are saying, very small fraction, almost insignificant.
Prabhupāda: Yes, so that is in every science. When you speak the truth there is small section, and then gradually it develops, seed and then big tree, and not immediately big tree.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Among the professors, see, there is a question, this logical positivism, saying that something, life, is beyond experimental knowledge. Then he said according to logical positivism, whatever we cannot see or whatever we cannot find out by experiment is not science.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is not science. That I am always speaking, that science means not to observe but to make experiment. And that is science, observation and experiment. If you cannot make experiment, it is all logic. Therefore they say, "theory, theory." The Darwin is careful. He says, "theory." He doesn't say, "science," because he knows that he is talking all nonsense. So this is "theory."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They also say that you cannot prove this ātmā by experiment.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, then it is not science. You cannot prove; then why do you say it can be made by chemical combination.
Satsvarūpa: He's saying that they say our position is we can't prove. We can't prove our...
Prabhupāda: No, we can prove. Just that... Our argument is that this is beyond our experimental. Therefore you have to hear from the authority. That is our proof. Just like you cannot make an experiment who is your father, but you have to hear from your mother. That is the only way. There is no second alternative.
Satsvarūpa: Śabda-pramāṇa.
Prabhupāda: Śabda-pramāṇa. Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There is another very strange statement in this regard saying that though we cannot prove something by experiment, but sometimes it is convenient to assume that way.
Prabhupāda: No, that is foolishness. How you assume?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is logical positivism, saying that... How, there's a house. Let's say there is a temple there, but since I don't see the temple there, but I don't know that the temple is existing or not, but it is convenient to assume that there is a temple.
Prabhupāda: No, no. When there is a possibility of getting proof, why shall I assume?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Because they say they cannot see.
Prabhupāda: Now, just the same example: You cannot see. You cannot see your father because the father was before your birth. Only mother can see. How you can refute this argument? Therefore she is the only proof.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have a small chapter on this in the book this logical positivism.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Very interesting and very strange.
Prabhupāda: It is quite logical that without father, nobody is born. So I do not know who is my father, but the mother is the evidence. That's all. You cannot make this theory that "I was born without father." That is not possible. That is not the laws of nature. But there must be father. You can say, "I have not him." And that is not proof that there is no father. One who has seen, go. Tattva-darśinaḥ. Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says,
Go to mother who has seen your father. That is only proof. Tattva-darśinaḥ. She has seen your father. So you submit, praṇipātena, to mother. "Mother, tell me who is my father." And she'll say, "Yes, he is." Tattva... She has seen. Tattva-darśinaḥ. It is not that mother is blindly indicating somebody as father. She has seen, and you have to learn from your mother by submission. That's all. There is no other way.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually we use this theory.
Gurukṛpā: So they ask us, "Have you seen God?" They ask us, "So you say you have seen God."
Prabhupāda: No, I have not seen. God personally comes, and I see Him. Kṛṣṇa came. A fortunate person saw him. Just like Arjuna saw. He accepted, paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān, puruṣam: [Bg. 10.12] "Oh You are person," śāśvatam, "eternally." He has seen. We have to take knowledge from Arjuna. That is called paramparā system. He has seen God, and he is giving a statement. You take Arjuna's statement and see God. That is the way. We are not blindly accepting Kṛṣṇa, but one who has seen Kṛṣṇa, his statement is there; we accept.
Devotee (1): No one has seen the scientist create life yet, so why should we accept from matter... The scientists are saying life can be made from matter.
Prabhupāda: What is this? What does he say?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: He's saying that no one has seen science has created life.
Prabhupāda: So why...? Therefore?
Devotee (1): Therefore we should not accept.
Prabhupāda: We should not accept.
Devotee (1): An intelligent man will not accept
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another argument, yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually we can utilize these theories...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...to disprove their own theories.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's very convenient. Like this logical positivism...
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is very good argument, that these rascals have never produced life, and why do they say like that? It's good argument because they say that "We have not seen; therefore we don't believe." They're experimental. But you have not experimented. Why you push? Why you brainwash my brain?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: According to this logical positivism, you can say that it is convenient to say that man has arisen from apes, but that is not the truth.
Prabhupāda: There is no experiment.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: There's no experiment, but it is convenient to assume according to this logic, but that's not a fact.
Prabhupāda: But why the modern ape is not producing any human being?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They say that's a long time ago...
Prabhupāda: Long time.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Millions of years ago.
Prabhupāda: But why man is producing man? Not the ape? Just see how they lunatic they are.
Bhāgavata: Why does the process of evolution stop?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's convenient to assume that way, but that's not a fact.
Gurukṛpā: Convenient means for your sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: So we have to discuss so many things, immense field. Go out... [break] At least you have to accept that "I am blind." So how you can show others the path? You are blind.
Jayapatākā: By distributing your books, Śrīla Prabhupāda, then the people begin to realize that the scientists are blind. Once they begin to disbelieve and doubt the scientists, then the scientists themselves will also...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: ...be able to come out with the truth.
Prabhupāda: When a common man will challenge them that "You are rascal. You are blind. You are showing us road?" Then it will be. I refuse to accept it.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Also, first of all, we have to show that their theory...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara:...is wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Then give an alternative view and see which one is based on more real knowledge. Then they'll accept. Otherwise they will not.
Prabhupāda: So that duty is now entrusted to you, in your hands. Do it very nicely. Kṛṣṇa will help you. [break]
Jayapatākā: ...to disprove them. But we have the true fact, but they cannot... Then let them disprove that.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: When the people all understand our philosophy then they'll have to disprove us. Otherwise they won't stand. Why we should disprove their nonsense? They haven't proved it yet.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Well, at the moment they're the majority. So majority carries the vote. That's the slogan. But if they're open-minded, if they are honest... We say, "Be honest, be frank, and be open-minded. Why you confine your small theory?"
Prabhupāda: No, they are not open-minded. They have to be pushed within the water. (laughs)
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's our first remark, "Please let's be open-minded. We are not dogmatic. We're not presenting something religious, fanatic. But let's discuss in open platform, see which one is..."
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our argument. Just like this plant is coming out of the womb of mother. Everything comes from the mother. So there must be father. Anything you see, it is coming from earth. Earth is the mother. Dhenu-dhātrī. So where is the father? "I cannot see." You cannot see? That does not mean there is no father. There must be father. And the father says, "Yes!" Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]. The answer is there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It's a very subtle subject. We try to present this bhakti-yoga among scientists...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...and these physicists and biologists. We are thinking how to do it.
Prabhupāda: No, here is argument. Here is... A plant is coming. So yoni... The source of birth is called yoni. So yoni is there, the earth. But who begotten this? There must be father. Because we, our experience, without father and mother there is no generation. You prove that, that here is the mother; there is the child. And where is the father? And the father says, "Yes, I am father." Ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā [Bg. 14.4]. Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. That's all. There must be father. "You do not see." This is not logic. There must be father. So there must be God; otherwise how they are coming? By whose arrangement? Now, the exact fruit and flower will come from this. You bring another tree. Not it will resemble like. Varieties of life. You cannot say it is accident. Huh? Why not accident—the red flower comes here and the white flower comes there? Accident? They're standing for years. Why there is not a single accident? And accident. You say, "accident."
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This is a nonsense theory.
Prabhupāda: Simply rascals. And because we have become rascals, we accept them, "Oh, here is scientist."
Gurukṛpā: They find it convenient to accept what these scientists say.
Prabhupāda: No, accept, we accept, but we accept the real scientist, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we are triumphant. We understand.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in an audience like that, in, let's say, one hour lecture, we cannot say that "You go to the temple and chant and do all these things."
Prabhupāda: No, that is later on. First of all you have to accept that there is original father. That is God. Now, how to realize that God, that is another detail.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So we made an attempt... I made an attempt to show this, that bhakti-yoga is science, but it is a subtle science. But it has...
Prabhupāda: To understand God.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It needs to...
Prabhupāda: It is a science. It is the only science by which you can understand God. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55].
Svarūpa Dāmodara: It needs to change our thinking. So we approached like this, that...
Prabhupāda: But because they are not accepting the process, they cannot understand what is God. Therefore they are bewildered. This is the only process. So if they take to bhakti-yoga, they will see, "Yes, vāsudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Oh, everything is Vās... Kṛṣṇa is the origin." No, they are struggling to know the origin, but because they have not taken the right process, they are bewildered. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. By false ahaṅkāra, egotism, they are rejecting, that "There is no God," and they remain in the darkness. Mūḍha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. Birth after birth they remain in darkness. (pause) Mūḍha janmani janmani, birth after birth. [break]
Svarūpa Dāmodara: So when we started, saying that "Once we try to understand this fundamental part of knowledge, we should not be too arrogant with nature," that "Let's approach it in a harmonious, in a real humble mind."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: "Then knowledge can be understood in it's proper form."
Prabhupāda: And as soon as you become puffed-up, then lost.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's what scientists are. They say they'll be able to understand everything by their experimental knowledge. We say, "No, Let's think about it. Let's be honest. There are so many things which are beyond our experimental knowledge."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Avan(?) mānasa-gocara. Acintyāḥ khalu ye bhāvā na tāṁs tarkeṇa yoja... Which is beyond your knowledge, you don't argue. Accept the authority.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That is approach. Then we bring bhakti-yoga...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...saying these things.
Prabhupāda: That is the beginning, submission. Tad viddhi praṇipātena [Bg. 4.34]. That is the beginning of bhakti-yoga. And if you remain just like the scissor man, then you'll never learn.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And once we bring this bhakti-yoga, we can prove very easily that the Supreme Being, must be a person.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We have some relations.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is speaking as person. [break]
Devotee (1): ...possibility that there is a soul and that there is a God. But when... I showed them a Fifth Canto, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and they were reading about the structure of the universe in the Bhāgavatam, and this was completely opposite to all their experiments. So if this is actually a fact, then why can't it be proved experimentally that the Bhāgavatam statements on the origin of the universe and so on are correct?
Prabhupāda: It is correct. How they can prove it is incorrect?
Devotee (1): Well they say that by mathematics we can prove the position...
Prabhupāda: So we have got our mathematics also. [break] ...workers. In the beginning I was alone. Now we have got so many things. So we shall come out triumphant.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That's Prabhupāda's mercy.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This professor of mine, he was very much against at the beginning of the theory. Then, when I gave this lecture, he invited me for home, in his home, and his wife supported our theory, so he came around, saying that "Yes, science says earth is only 4.5 billion years old, and there are so many defects. So they have to accept that "No, we cannot be correct." So people are coming around slowly.
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] Kavirāja Gosvāmī says, śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanya-dayā karaha vicāra, vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra; [Cc. Ādi 8.15] "Just see what kind of merciful is Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu, and if you consider it perfectly, you'll see it it wonderful." Vicāra karile citte pābe camatkāra. "Oh, here is Caitanya." Caitanya. Caitanya means living force. He says, vicāra, "Just try to understand by logic, by philosophy, by argument." That is vicāra. We are not following Caitanya Mahāprabhu blindly. That is not our position. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna argued with Kṛṣṇa in so many ways. At last, he accepted, "Yes." Paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitram: [Bg. 10.12] "You are the Supreme Person. The rascals, they do not understand Your personality, but Vyāsadeva, Nārada, Asita, Devala, they have accepted, and I also see. Therefore, whatever you say, I agree. That's all" This is experiment. Arjuna did not accept Kṛṣṇa blindly. He knew, but for our sake he gave so many arguments. At last, he accepted. We have to follow Arjuna. Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare. [break]
Gurukṛpā: Great.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Gurukṛpā: He was great by admitting that he was also a thief, but a big one.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Gurukṛpā: So if the scientists admit that actually the are not right, that makes them great.
Prabhupāda: Yes, actually. He must be standing on truth. That is greatness. Because "to err is human." Anyone commits mistake. There is no doubt about it. But after committing mistake, if I stick to that mistake, that is foolishness. When it is detected that it is mistake, you must admit. That is greatness.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: We are bringing this law of nature which is a higher order law. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...thousandth part of the top tip of the hair. That is also given. Keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya śatadhā [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. In the Upaniṣads there is. The dimension of the ātmā is given. That small particle, atomic, is so powerful. And what about the Supreme?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They ask, "What is the force that combined matter and the ātmā, matter and life, matter and the jīva or ātmā? What is the force behind it?"
Prabhupāda: Force because ātmā is independent. He can live in the spiritual world or in the material world as he likes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: But is not correct, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Paramātmā is the...
Prabhupāda: Paramātmā is...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...is behind.
Prabhupāda: Yes, behind, yes. He's the origin of ātmā. Mamaivāṁśa. Kṛṣṇa said, "This ātmā is my small particle part." He says that. So Paramātmā is the origin, and these are fragmental parts of Paramātmā.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: That makes our statement very valid.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Ātmā... Super-ātmā is the source of ātmā.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They can explain everything, all..., but cannot explain by science.
Prabhupāda: That is the Bhagavad-gītā, Seventh Chapter, bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ bhinnā me prakṛtir aṣṭadhā: [Bg. 7.4] "They are also My energy, and beyond this, there is superior energy." Jīva-bhūtāṁ mahā-bāho [Bg. 7.5]. Both of them, energies, the material elements and the spiritual element, both of them are different energy of the supreme ātmā. So one is superior; another is inferior. Because we are superior, we are controlling the inferior energy, and by such control, from inferior energy matter, we have created this motor car. Therefore I am superior.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: In the West, Śrīla Prabhupāda, in Western philosophy...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: This subject matter is called "mind-body problem." The mind sometimes they compare as spirit or soul in some Western philosophical circles.
Prabhupāda: Because they are not yet advanced. Beyond the mind there is intelligence, and beyond the intelligence there is the soul.
indriyāṇi parāṇy āhur
indriyebhyaḥ paraṁ manaḥ
manasas tu parā buddhir
yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ
[Bg. 3.42]
They have come up to the mind, but above the mind there is intelligence, and above intelligence there is soul. So we can understand this very easily because we accept Bhagavad-gītā. It is easy for us. And for others, they are going step by step. It is very difficult. But we can understand immediately.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes. It's true that that theory that everything is material or everything beyond matter is false... (end)
Morning Walk

February 2, 1977, Bhuvaneśvara
Prabhupāda: The learned scholars, they used to live in the forest. Vyāsadeva was writing in śāmyaprāśa cottage. (chuckling) That is university. And no university can produce such scholar or student, not imperfect. They're all rascals. What are the values of these MA, Ph.D? [break] It is humbug. Māyā-sukhāya bharam udvahato vimūḍhān [SB 7.9.43]. Actually they're vimūḍhān. Mūḍha means rascal and vimūḍhān means special rascals. (laughs) Māyā-sukhāya, for some sense gratification-big, big arrangement. And next life he's going to be a dog. That's all. So Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am thinking of these rascals, vimūḍhān, especially rascals, that they are arranging so gorgeous thing for material happiness and forgetting their spiritual identity." Śoce: "I am simply thinking of these rascals. For me there is no problem." Tato vimukha-cetasaḥ. "Because they are bereft of God consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they are doing, engaged in these big, big projects, although (they) live for twenty years or fifty years utmost, perhaps. And eternal life? They do not know." Vimūḍhān: "specially rascal." The cats and dogs are rascals, but they are animals. They cannot know anything. But they got this human form of life, and still, they are acting as rascal. Therefore vimūḍhān, "specially rascal." Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. Such a rascal. [break] ...where charity is given, to be given, give him. That's all. Dātavyam. [break] "...by the people, for the people." And what is the people condition? They are naked. They have no good house, no food. And these men, they must have very good bungalow, very good, comfortable life. This is Kali-yuga, means "Plunder the citizens, take money from them, and live comfortably at the cost of the poor citizens."
Gargamuni: Most of these bungalows here are offices. Government offices.
Prabhupāda: That I said. They are living very comfortably, and the citizens... We have seen the other day, Cuttack, the marwan (?) shop, congested.
Gurukṛpā: Dirty.
Prabhupāda: Dirty. Actually they are earning for them. Taxation. They have got law, and they are advertising...
Satsvarūpa: "Don't cheat on your tax."
Prabhupāda: "Don't cheat..."
Satsvarūpa: "Or you'll be persecuted."
Prabhupāda: Who is cheating? They're cheating. Just see. They are working hard; they are cheating. And they, by taxation getting money and living very comfortable, they are not cheating.
Gargamuni: They are greater cheaters.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Kali-yuga.
dudha gali gali phire surā baitale vikāra
dhanya kali-yuga teri līlā duḥkha lāge haspar(?)
Tulasī dāsa has said, "In the Kali-yuga, dudha, milk—no customer. And surā, wine-baitale vikāra.(?) It is sitting down in one place, and customers are going there: "Give me. Give me one after another, one after..." Surā, wine, is so impure that it should not be touched. That is selling in one place very comfortably. Dudha? Gali gali phire: "Will you take milk? Will you take milk?" Dudha gali gali phire surā baitale vikāra, dhanya kali-yuga teri līlā. Kali-yuga dhanya tomāra.(?) "Your pastime..." Duḥkha lāge haspar, "I am very sorry, but at the same time, I am laughing." (laughs) "Although I am very sorry, but still, I am laughing." This is Kali-yuga.
dudha gali gali phire surā baitale vikāra
dhanya kali-yuga teri līlā duḥkha lāge haspar(?)
And in Vedic civilization, animal is being attempted to be killed—"Oh! Who are you?" "Kali-yuga." "Get out!" This is rāja, king. And there is nobody to protest. So many animals are being killed. This is Kali-yuga. Why? "They are my subject. You cannot touch." Kṛṣṇa is embracing gopīs and the calves also, not that He has selected only gopīs to be embraced. Sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. "Anyone who loves Me... Loves or not, I am protecting." Eko yo bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān. He's giving protection to everyone. And if he is a devotee, a special protection. This is God, and government means God's representative, God's, not people's representative. Government does not mean people's representative. Government means God's representative. That is government. Rājarṣi. Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Bhagavad-gītā is not meant for the loafer class. It is meant for the rājarṣi. Unless the kings and big, big stalwart leaders understand this science, how they will lead? Because these leaders, they do not understand Bhagavad-gītā, they make their own plan. Therefore so much catastrophe, chaotic condition. It is meant for the rājarṣi. Big, big government officer, big, big kings, presidents, ministers. They should understand it. And government is making law, "No Bhagavad-gītā in the school, college," because they do not know the value. [break] ...Kali-yuga. "Kali-yuga, thank you very much." Dhanya kali-yuga teri līlā. [break] Thank you.
Gargamuni: Sometimes these professional people accuse us of living at the cost of others.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But you are so rascal that you do not know who should be maintained at your cost. Those who are learned scholars, those who can give you good direction, they should be allowed to live very comfortably, without any want. That is Vedic civilization. Brāhmaṇas... Dātavyam iti yad dānam. Give them charity. All the big, big kings, they used to give charity. Give them cows, give them ornament, give them money, give them gold. Brāhmaṇa-bhojana. Invite the brāhmaṇas, give them sumptuous food. They never said, daridra-bhojana, daridra-nārāyaṇa-bhojana. They never said. And there was no daridra, because the brāhmaṇa was there. There was no question of daridra. Why do you pay the lawyers? Why do you say that "These people are living at our cost"? They're charging big, big fees. Why do you pay?
Gurukṛpā: Thousands of dollars.
Prabhupāda: Why do you pay? One man is earning ten rupees a day, but when there is some case he is paying fifty rupees a day or fifty rupees per standing a lawyer. Why does he pay? No, you say to them that "We are brāhmaṇas. The more you pay us, you'll be benefited." What do they say? That "You are living at the cost of others"?
Gurukṛpā: Yes. We are taking from the society.
Satsvarūpa: They don't recognize our activity as work, honest work.
Gurukṛpā: Think we're cheating. Many people interrupt our book sales, saying "These people are simply taking money."
Prabhupāda: Where do they say? In your country?
Gurukṛpā: Yes. They come, and they stop the sale: "Don't give him anything. He's cheating."
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Gurukṛpā: "He's stealing from you." That is a great problem. We lose so many sales because of envious people stopping.
Satsvarūpa: They say we're pretending to be a religion just to collect money, but our real aim is just to cheat, false propaganda. (horn beeps)
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Child: Prabhupāda ki jaya!
Prabhupāda: Jaya! Hare Kṛṣṇa.
Children: Prabhupāda ki jaya! Prabhupāda ki jaya! (end)
Room Conversation

February 2, 1977, Bhuvaneśvara
Satsvarūpa: So the men would not buy their lunch from the meat-eaters.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not our scheme. Our scheme is that pathya, auṣadha. Auṣadha means medicine, and pathya means diet. So in order to cure him from these material desires we shall give him medicine, hari-nāma, and diet, prasāda. We have no such program, to make him vegetarian. That is not our program.
Yugadharma: I had one more other scheme with Dhanañjaya dāsa from Vṛndāvana. Dhanañjaya is making with this Spanish devotee who's staying, making... I have just seen last week these beautiful, beautiful Gaura-Nitāi mūrti, these Gaura-Nitāi Deities that he is making. They are casting them in Vṛndāvana, and they are very, very beautiful. And Dhanañjaya has told me that you have encouraged him to sell mūrtis in the United States.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yugadharma: I would like to do also, set a large business up if the prasādam...
Prabhupāda: It will be very nice.
Satsvarūpa: Oh.
Yugadharma: That would... Yes.
Prabhupāda: So you teach them that before Gaura-Nitāi, let them chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam.
Yugadharma: Yes. I would like to do this in Laguna Beach on the highway.
Prabhupāda: And if you do this, it will be great service, great service. They can take Gaura-Nitāi at home. So let them offer vegetarian food to Gaura-Nitāi and then take it. If you can introduce home to home, it will be great service.
Yugadharma: Because it is a very arty community. They are very interested in art there and bogus impersonalism. There seems to be a lack of enthusiasm in the gṛhasthas in Laguna Beach.
Prabhupāda: No if they chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra...
Yugadharma: What I would like to do is make you very happy by doing this.
Prabhupāda: That is yajña. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi sumedhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. This is the way of delivering them: Let them worship Gaura-Nitāi by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra or Śrī Kṛṣṇa Caitanya Prabhu Nityānanda, if not two, but one, Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, and let them take prasādam. These two things will make them advance very quickly, the spiritual life.
Yugadharma: Because they are very interested in these little figures.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you can do that, it will be very nice.
Yugadharma: How about Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa also?
Prabhupāda: Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa not now.
Yugadharma: Not now.
Prabhupāda: No. When they have actually advanced and initiated and following strictly the Vaiṣṇava principles, then Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa. And Gaura-Nitāi, they can worship in any condition.
Yugadharma: I would like also to comprise with Gaura-Nitāi mūrtis the very pākā Indian artifacts.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Yugadharma: Very nice.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That will if they keep Gaura-Nitāi...
Yugadharma: Like nice chāñcas.(?)
Prabhupāda: At least if they see and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa that will make them advance. Chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra before Gaura-Nitāi will make them very quickly advanced in spiritual consciousness. Very quickly. There is no offense. He does not take any offenses. Whatever little service they do, it is accepted by Gaura-Nitāi. Pāpī tāpī yata chilo, hari-nāme uddhārilo. So if you can do this, it will be very nice. Let them at least keep Gaura-Nitāi there in their room. They'll see. That will be benefit. And if they offer little respect and offer prasādam and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, oh then what to...? It will be very nice. Otherwise, if they simply see the Gaura-Nitāi pair, they will advance.
Yugadharma: Because there is no one actually doing this as far as I know on the Western part of that country.
Prabhupāda: Therefore I have encouraged him to prepare Gaura-Nitāi and nicely dress. They can be sold.
Yugadharma: 'Cause Dhanañjaya and I get along very well. We are very good friends.
Prabhupāda: So they're already sending in foreign countries Gaura-Nitāi pair?
Satsvarūpa: Are they sending them yet?
Yugadharma: No they are making... They have twenty pairs made now, and I have bought them all. Also one who is interested is Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa?
Yugadharma: Yes. He has also has given $700 advanced order to Dhanañjaya also for San Francisco area.
Prabhupāda: Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa from...? Who was my secretary?
Satsvarūpa: Yes. He wants to help and come back a little.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Oh, that's nice.
Yugadharma: 'Cause there is no one actually doing this in Laguna Beach, and I would like to be a Vaiṣṇava, learn to be a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Oh, very good. Begin. Yes.
Yugadharma: In this way I will help supply the temple with lakṣmī. And this way will be first-class. Also, if next time you are in California, if you decide to come to Laguna Beach, we have a present for you.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if I go, I will...
Yugadharma: So this is good. Now I have some service.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You are seeking for service. That is your advancement. Kṛṣṇa is gracing you. Sevonmukhe hi jihvādau [Brs. 1.2.234]. The more we become inclined to render service we become advanced. You have seen our Bombay branch?
Yugadharma: No.
Prabhupāda: No. Not yet. Vṛndāvana you have been. And Māyāpura?
Yugadharma: Māyāpura, yes. I have family. I have one wife and two children, two daughters there.
Prabhupāda: Oh, where?
Yugadharma: In Māyāpura.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.
Yugadharma: They are very nice. They are very excited. In Vṛndāvana I was walking with my daughter on Raman Reti, and she was saying... She is four years old. Her name is Yaśodā. She gave herself the name.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Yugadharma: And she said, "Where is Kṛṣṇa?" I said, "If you have the eyes to see him, you will see him." So she was walking on the Raman Reti, and she stayed for a minute, and I said, "What is the matter Yaśodā?" She goes, "I have found Kṛṣṇa's footprints." It was very nice.
Prabhupāda: When you left Vṛndāvana?
Yugadharma: I left Vṛndāvana one week. It was...
Prabhupāda: So things are going nice?
Yugadharma: Yes, very nice. Everybody was very satisfied.
Prabhupāda: And building?
Yugadharma: Building is going on very well also. They say the front of the Gurukula will be finished by the time the devotees come, at least partial. Dhanañjaya will have one store opened so the devotees can buy, purchase paraphernalia so they won't go into town and make an array, a display of lakṣmī like that. They are setting it up very nicely.
Prabhupāda: The mūrtis are made nice?
Yugadharma: Oh, yes. Very nice. This Spanish artist is very, very first-class, very first-class.
Prabhupāda: It is locally molded?
Yugadharma: Yes.
Prabhupāda: And he is giving the finishing touch, polishing.
Yugadharma: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Yugadharma: He is doing what they call "quality control."
Prabhupāda: Hm. That's nice.
Yugadharma: He has three sizes. He has four inch, six inch, and nine inch.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Yugadharma: And they are mūrtis that slip off the base. They are very first-class. I went to mūrtiwālā in Navadvīpa, Gopal.
Prabhupāda: No, he's not good.
Yugadharma: No. I went and looked at his prices and his quality...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Don't deal with him. He's a great thief.
Yugadharma: Yes.
Prabhupāda: I don't like him. He has made the karatālas so third-class. He is simply cheating. Don't deal with him.
Yugadharma: Laguna Beach temple... Agnideva dāsa, he's doing very nicely, very first-class. Everything is going... Temple life now is very nice.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere there should be nicer because you are getting experience.
Satsvarūpa: I have the mail, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that Jayapatākā Mahārāja brought yesterday from Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes. Some book?
Satsvarūpa: Yes. These books were sent by Patita Uddhāraṇa. He's staying at the... [break]
Prabhupāda: Devotees, they have dedicated life to this. [break] Where you can get such worshiper by paid man? They are after money. They are not after God. So it will be nice if they hand it over to us. We can take charge. [break] ...eternal propaganda.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And now they're getting two vans for book distribution.
Prabhupāda: Yes. And now Gargamuni is asking to purchase this van and with that money they will purchase Indian van. That will solve the problem. Those who are coming... [break] Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī [Bg. 6.1]. Kṛṣṇa says. Anāśritaḥ, now you are working so hard not for your benefit, personal, and that is sannyāsī. That is sannyāsī. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryam. "Oh it is my duty to serve Kṛṣṇa." And he is sannyāsī. Anyone who has got this consciousness that "It is my duty to serve Kṛṣṇa. I must serve Him with my life and soul and everything," he's a sannyāsī. Not the dress. So you are doing that. Now fix up. Go on doing this. Life is successful. That's all. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalaṁ kāryaṁ karma karoti yaḥ, sa sannyāsī. Find out this verse. Anāśritaḥ karma-phalam. It is so nice to work for Kṛṣṇa without any personal profit. This is Vṛndāvana. The gopīs, they sacrificed everything for Kṛṣṇa, their position, their honor, their prestige. So do like that. I am very glad to see when you work so hard for Kṛṣṇa. That gives me much pleasure.
Prabhupāda: Cākriyaḥ. Read?
Hari-śauri: "The blessed Lord said: 'One who is unattached to the fruits of his work and who works as he is obligated is in the renounced order of life and he is the true mystic, not he who lights no fire and performs no work.' "
Prabhupāda: Purport.
Hari-śauri: "In this chapter the Lord explains that the process..." [break]
Prabhupāda: So this is sannyāsī. Sannyāsī is not the dress. This mentality, that is sannyāsa. So you have taken all prasādam? No.
Jayapatākā: Now you take rest, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So things are going nicely?
Prabhupāda: Thank you very much. (end)
Room Conversation

February 3, 1977, Bhuvaneśvara
Prabhupāda: ...India because the Japanese people, they were trying to expand. Two, three wars they tried, they could not. They wanted to take this advantage, Subash Bose's cooperation. But their motive was different. And therefore they killed Subash Bose. Subash Bose was... [break]
Svarūpa Dāmodara: ...in Manipur. So they wanted to construct some sort of memorial building but, somehow, India government is not granting them. So instead of doing that, they were just collecting the bones. They found out some bones by some... (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Bhūtejyā. This is called bhūtejyā.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: And they carried those bones along with them. Just in the village where I lived many Japanese bones were found. And they were coming very frequently to collect the bones.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Gargamuni: When we were in Dvārakā they also showed us some shells.
Prabhupāda: How these Japanese died? In Manipur?
Prabhupāda: How?
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They came. I think in the war.
Prabhupāda: Oh, they attacked Manipur, and they were killed.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Actually the main Second World War was in Manipur towards the end.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Towards the end. The Japanese were trying to enter India, and Subash Bose was there.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Yes, many people saw Subash Bose.
Prabhupāda: So Japanese planned that "Kill Subash Bose, and let us enter." Subash Bose wanted Japanese help to enter India. The Japanese took this opportunity that "We shall enter India and kill Subash Bose." That was their trick.
Bhāgavata: So then they killed him. They killed him in that plane crash.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The Japanese had no honesty, dishonest. You see? They thought "This is the opportunity that this Indian leader wants our help. So with his help we enter India. And this is the opportunity to occupy India." Because they are searching after land. They are very poor in land. They have no place, and very little land. Therefore they are now going to Hawaii to settle down. They have no place.
Bhāgavata: How did Subash Bose get from India to Germany?
Prabhupāda: That is also political. He was, what is called, interned at home.
Bhāgavata: By the British. Kept in his house.
Prabhupāda: Hm. So there was the minister Nizamuddin, I think, he helped him to go out. He was going for evening walk with police force and other. So it became accustomed. Police became lenient, in the meantime slipped. And in a dress of a Kābuli, Kābuli-wālā, Pāṭhan he crossed India. In this way he went there.
Bhāgavata: I heard he took the dress of a Muslim?
Prabhupāda: Yes, this is called... Yes. This is called pāṭhan. So after going outside India, he organized this INA, Indian National Army. And Hitler helped him. Tojo also wanted to help him, but he had a plan.
Bhāgavata: Different motive. So Hitler, he had no...
Prabhupāda: No Hitler actually helped him, all the soldiers. And then the Sikh soldiers and Gurkha soldiers voluntarily surrendered to join INA. And this information obliged the Britishers to go away. Then "Now the army is joining national movement, so there is no hope." The Gandhi's noncooperation, the clerks' noncooperation the, some of these teachers' noncooperation what do they care for? But when they saw that "The soldiers are now going to join this non..." Gandhi diagnosed the disease rightly, that "The Britishers are here on account of our cooperation. Without this cooperation, they'll go away." That's a fact. So his noncooperation movement was... It was a good trick, but actually he did not succeed. And this movement succeeded. That "Now he's organizing Indian soldiers for national movement. There is no chance."
Gargamuni: That Mrs. Lalita Bose, she compared you to Nethaji, that you went outside of India and organized an army, (laughter) then came back to India. She said that. She's the grand-daughter? That Lalita Bose?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Niece.
Gargamuni: She said, "Your Gurujī is just like Nethaji. He went outside of India and organized army of Vaiṣṇavas."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now it is in the right hand. Resourceful, you Americans. You can do this. There is scientist. So we have got the framework very nice. Now you can push on. It is a good movement for the benefit of the whole world. Kṛṣṇa will help you. Kṛṣṇa will recognize you. Go on pushing rightly. Our only mission is para-upakārawe don't want to exploit anyone—Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. The people in general, human being, they have got this opportunity of being out of the clutches of māyā and they are kept in darkness. What is this? Is that civilization? This is our mission. Here is opportunity for his getting out of the clutches of māyā, daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā [Bg. 7.14], and they are being misled, the so-called science and nasty philosophy and economics and making them, training them as demons and rākṣasas. What is this civilization? So our movement is against this demonic civilization. It is really para-upakāra.
And this is India's mission, Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission, para-upakāra. So... And Kṛṣṇa also confirms, ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ mad-bhakteṣv abhidhāsyati, na ca tasmād... [Bg 18.68]. You'll be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Simply go on sincerely working for this movement. Nobody can defeat you. Take all strategic point, fighting with māyā, and become victorious. From any point of view, come on. We shall fight with māyā. It is a great declaration of fight with māyā. Not with māyā. Our fight is with the demons. Māyā is servant, maidservant of Kṛṣṇa. She can withdraw by the order. But she cannot withdraw because people are demons. So this European opposition, American opposition is that the demons are now feeling the pressure. That is recognition that "Now it is a fight. We have to defend."
Nanda-kumāra: The outcome of the battle is already decided. Just like in Bhagavad-gītā, we've already won. We just have to keep, keep fighting.
Prabhupāda: They are now feeling the pressure of the opposite party. So fight is fight. When there is fight, my Guru Mahārāja used to say, "Some of our soldiers will die. It doesn't matter." You don't expect that not a single soldier of your party will not die. No, some of them will die. Still fight must go on. Fight cannot be stopped. So fight like brave soldiers, Kṛṣṇa will help you. Don't make any compromise. No truce with these demons. Fight must be. Our fighting weapon is Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. That's all. Sāṅgopāṅgāstra-pārṣadam. Astra. That astra is yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana, this saṅkīrtana, this astra weapon. They're now afraid of this astra more than atomic weapon. Is it not?
Gargamuni: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) So...
Svarūpa Dāmodara: Everybody knows. At least, everybody knows about Hare Kṛṣṇa, about this saṅkīrtana.
Prabhupāda: No it is more dangerous than the atomic weapon. They have accepted it.
Gargamuni: Yes. In many countries we are known to be very dangerous, this Hare Kṛṣṇa. They are afraid.
Svarūpa Dāmodara: They even write, the psychiatrists, that "These people are very dangerous." (Prabhupāda chuckles)
Bhāgavata: We are threatening their sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So go on with fighting. We are not the Vṛndāvana bābājīs: "No, we are so perfect we do not go out of Vṛndāvana, and chant... Chant or not chant, we have got three dozen widows." This is going on. Sahajiyā. Still they are better because they have accepted Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord, than these demons. Our Guru Mahārāja said that although we condemn these sahajiyās, but they are better than the Māyāvādīs because they accept Kṛṣṇa as Supreme Lord. Their character is not good. But still, because they accept Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Lord somehow or other, they are better than these Māyāvādīs.
Bhāgavata: Sahajiyā.
Prabhupāda: Sahajiyā means they have taken everything very easy. That's all.
Bhāgavata: Cheaply.
Gargamuni: Would you like to rest a little bit?
Prabhupāda: No. Why rest?
Bhāgavata: 9:20.
Gargamuni: 9:30.
Prabhupāda: So we go at ten?
Hari-śauri: 10:15.
Prabhupāda: 10:15, that's all.
Gargamuni: See how you're going to pack?
Hari-śauri: Yes. [break]
Prabhupāda: ...duty after all. Everyone is his son. Condemned maybe, but they must be supplied with food. [break] ...supplies food to the prisoners. [break] ...are kept as prisoners of māyā. We want to fight and release them. Who has got such good mission?
Hari-śauri: No one even understands actually what the problem is.
Prabhupāda: One does not understand—that does not mean the fact is not.
Hari-śauri: Yes. You said preaching is a thankless task.
Prabhupāda: Just see Jesus Christ-crucified. What was his fault? He was crucified. Of course, he was not crucified. Nobody can crucify him. But the people are so thankless...
Hari-śauri: That they wanted to do that.
Prabhupāda: Such a great personality, son of God. He wanted to deliver God consciousness. And return, he was crucified. We don't take Jesus Christ very insignificantly. We give him all honor. He's representative of God. He tried to preach according to the time, place, circumstances, country, people. Otherwise he is representative of God.
Hari-śauri: Yeah. He only preached for three years too.
Prabhupāda: He could not preach even but still, in three years what he did is wonderful.
Hari-śauri: Yes, He's world famous for the last two thousand years.
Prabhupāda: Yes, not joke. Unless he's God representative, how he can be so famous? That we know. I told in Melbourne, "What is your idea of Jesus Christ?" And "He's our guru," I told. You remember that?
Hari-śauri: I don't... That was at one of those...
Prabhupāda: The priest meeting.
Hari-śauri: Yes. I didn't attend that. I wasn't there.
Prabhupāda: They asked me. And, "He's our guru." They very much appreciated. He is preaching God's consciousness, so he is our guru, spiritual master. That's a fact. Don't take him otherwise. He's guru.
Hari-śauri: It's just his nonsense followers.
Prabhupāda: Guruṣu nara-matiḥ. Such person, great personality, why shall think of him as ordinary human being? That is nārakī-buddhi.
Hari-śauri: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Anyone who is preaching God's glories, he is guru. So how can I decry him? He is guru. Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Unless one is guru how he can preach about God?
Hari-śauri: Yes. Actually we have a much better appreciation of Jesus than anyone.
Prabhupāda: More yes. Oh, yes.
Hari-śauri: Because we actually understand the value of the guru.
Prabhupāda: We are the greatest Christian. We follow his instruction; we accept him as guru.
Hari-śauri: Yeah. Without following the guru's instructions, there's no question of appreciating who he is or his work.
Prabhupāda: And this word, Jesus, the Christ, it is not?
Hari-śauri: Well, originally they say it was "Jesus of the Christ."
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) Christ means...
Hari-śauri: God.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: So they... Originally it was "Jesus of the Christ," meaning he was son of God.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That Christ is Kṛṣṇa.
Hari-śauri: Yeah. Same word.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Krisht, Krisht. Christ means Krisht, Krisht. Krishta is vulgar expression of Kṛṣṇa. No, from his teaching, we can understand he is representative of God.
Hari-śauri: Oh, yes. What he was teaching is exactly in accord with what we're doing.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: I was reading some of his instructions, what he was giving to his original disciples. And he gave them examples, that "The birds, they are not worrying about their food. God is supplying. So you should not worry for your food. You should simply go out and preach."
Prabhupāda: He said like that?
Hari-śauri: Yes. He said, "So what should you worry if you go out and preach? Do you think that God will not give to you?"
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: "He is giving to the birds."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, our mission.
Hari-śauri: Yes. And he told them, "You should not worry for your food, for your clothing, for somewhere to stay. If you preach then God will look after all those things."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact.
Hari-śauri: And he had them give up everything. They had a common pool. Anyone that came to join him, they would pool all their resources and share it among them. Anybody who was with nothing, he would get something. They would get food and clothing, like that.
Prabhupāda: We are planning like that. "Come, take your food. Reside comfortably. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."
Hari-śauri: Yes. We have no objection for...
Prabhupāda: No.
Hari-śauri: ...feeding. He was an actual Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Hari-śauri: Teaching Vaiṣṇava principles.
Prabhupāda: If he has taken sometimes fish, there was no way. What can be done? Not for his sense gratification.
Hari-śauri: Even that's not certain, that he took fish anyway.
Prabhupāda: Sometimes it is said.
Hari-śauri: Well, it mentions that they distributed foodstuffs to a lot of people, fish and bread, 'cause that's all that was available.
Prabhupāda: Yes, what can be done?
Hari-śauri: And because it wasn't always easy to get good water, there's a very cheap kind of wine. It's not actually very alcoholic. It's very, very cheap. Then they used to drink that because there's no good water.
Prabhupāda: That is not plea that we shall drink bottle after bottle.
Hari-śauri: Yes. (laughs) Catholic priests, they have a big stock in their cabinets, so much wine.
Prabhupāda: If they want to be reformed, we can reform them. On the basis of Bible, we can reform them. There is no difficulty.
Hari-śauri: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Most of my disciples they are coming from the Christian group. They can reform. Chanting is also recommended in the Bible, the glories of the Lord. I do not know why these rascals, Protestant... That means... The Protestant means last class. Why they should protest against Jesus law? Protestant means that. They protested. Is it not?
Hari-śauri: I'm not sure about... I don't know much about the history of Protestants.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That King John, who started this Protestant movement? Some king in England.
Hari-śauri: Yes, it was started like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He was forbidden not to divorce his wife.
Hari-śauri: That was the Church of England, Henry the VIII.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, Henry the VIII. He started this Protestant.
Hari-śauri: He was excommunicated from the Catholic Church.
Prabhupāda: But this...
Hari-śauri: So he started the Church of England.
Prabhupāda: ...Protestant group was started by him.
Hari-śauri: I don't know anything about their history.
Prabhupāda: That is the history.
Hari-śauri: There's always been fighting between the Protestants and the Catholics though.
Prabhupāda: Well, fighting must be there. They protested.
Hari-śauri: There's so many Christian sects.
Prabhupāda: There are many. Means they don't want anything genuine. Something imitation. What is the cause of fighting, this Ireland? Unnecessarily. It is going on in Europe since long time. In France it was very terrible fight. I have seen that Church. They would bell, and they'll come and fight Protestant. You have been there? No. Concord. It is... That place is called Concord. So history there is a building, church. The Catholics would come and kill the Protestants. The Joan of Arc.
Hari-śauri: She was burnt.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: Europe has a big history of...
Prabhupāda: Fighting.
Hari-śauri: Religious fighting.
Prabhupāda: Crusade? Crusade?
Hari-śauri: Yes. The Crusades were against the Arabs, though.
Prabhupāda: That was a religious fight.
Hari-śauri: Yes. Christians against the Mohammedans. That article of Gurudāsa's was very nice.
Prabhupāda: Hm.
Hari-śauri: They asked him, "Do you think that another religion will help Ireland?" criticizing that "We've already got two religions and they're fighting. What do you think you're going to do?" So then he said, "Well, actually, it's another way of life, and Ireland could certainly use another way of life." It was a good point. We get a good reception there too, our devotees. People are very pious there because Ireland is still very simple.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere people are simple. That is my opinion. Mass people, they are simple. The leaders spoil them.
Hari-śauri: Yes. That's a fact. Most people are just... They're in ignorance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. The human psychology is the same for man, woman. That's all. Amongst the lower animals you see. The pigeons, they are the same. The sparrow, they are the same everywhere. The squirrels, the same, the same. So why men should be different?
Hari-śauri: It's artificial, the differences they've created themselves.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: On national basis.
Prabhupāda: In Russia I have seen. The people are the same.
Hari-śauri: Yes. Common mass of people are always...
Prabhupāda: Simple.
Hari-śauri: I think I'll see what's happening with the van.
Prabhupāda: Hm. (end)
Train Conversation

February 4, 1977, Calcutta
(Beginning of conversation takes place on the train at the station with cries of vendors etc.)
Prabhupāda: "...prefer that I do not see the face of nondevotee."
Hari-śauri: You quote that in the Nectar of Devotion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Actually yes. This society, modern, it is very painful to see even their face. They have fallen so much down that by seeing their face you become polluted. Last night they disturbed so much. And they are happy.
Hari-śauri: Actually they're not happy, but they make a show of happiness.
Prabhupāda: No, they think they're happy. They think they are very happy. They're enjoying life.
Satsvarūpa: But we have to take the risk to go and see their face, to preach to them.
Prabhupāda: Yes. But if you are engaged in preaching, you are not affected. [break] ...Himalaya just to avoid seeing the face of the vicious.
Satsvarūpa: In Bhagavad-gītā one of the items of knowledge is to go to a solitary place...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa: ...and avoid the congested...
Prabhupāda: Practice yoga—solitary place, sacred and solitary. What is this circle we see in morning? Simply "Cāi, cāi, cāi." And cigarette, biḍi, and talking nonsense, drinking, no arrangement. Vedic system, still in India in morning they take bath, in the villages. In the cities also, those who come from village, you'll find in Bombay this side, many poor men, they're taking early in the morning bathing. You have seen that?
Satsvarūpa: Yes, Juhu.
Prabhupāda: Not only Juhu. Olee(?). They'll wash their floor, take bath. In village also they'll go to the well and take water. (end)
Room Conversation Excerpt

February 4, 1977, Calcutta
Prabhupāda: ...lords, they are selling their property.
Devotee: Yes.
Bhāgavata: What did Mr. Bajoria say about the Purī house?
Prabhupāda: Practically he avoided.
Gargamuni: Yes, I saw that. When you asked that question, I could see in his face. (end)
Room Conversation

February 4, 1977, Calcutta
Prabhupāda: So to approach a puffed-up man, falsely puffed-up man. Just like sometimes father begs from the son, "Oh, my dear child, oh, you are very... Give me this hundred rupees' note. You'll spoil it." But the child does not know that father is not beggar. The child thinks, "My father is begging. All right. Take it." This is childish. We are not begging. It is a means to approach the rascal puffed-up men. We are not begging. And what is that? If I sell one book, is that begging?
Satsvarūpa: No.
Prabhupāda: Call them. Because people are falsely proud, therefore we approach them in a humble way... That also, we do not beg. We give something and take something, exchange, and give something which is appreciated by the greatest learned circle. And you are saying we are begging?
Satsvarūpa: Sometimes they don't give books. They just give a flower or...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That is also humble way. Unless...
Satsvarūpa: But mostly we do books.
Prabhupāda: Yes, mostly we do. Don't say about that flower. That may be. That is also not restricted. We can beg. In India still, high scholarly sannyāsīs, they beg. That is allowed. Bhikṣu. They like. Tridaṇḍī-bhikṣu. So begging in Vedic culture is neither illegal nor shameful—by the proper person. Begging is allowed to the brahmacārīs, to the sannyāsīs. And they like openly. Tridaṇḍī-bhikṣu. Bhikṣu means beggar.
Satsvarūpa: Tridaṇḍī-bhikṣu.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here, the Indian culture, brahmacārī, sannyāsī and brāhmaṇa, they are allowed to beg alms. That is the Vedic culture. And the householders treat them as their own children. This is the relationship.
Satsvarūpa: But what if it's done in a culture where this is entirely different?
Prabhupāda: Therefore there are hippies. This is your culture hippies and murderer in the name of religion. This is their culture. And abortion. Because there is no such culture, therefore the result is the abortion and killing and bombing, making the whole atmosphere abominable. This is your culture. Fighting between Protestant and Catholics, and bombing... People are terrified. They cannot go out in the street. This is your culture. And begging is bad. To keep the people, whole population, in terrified condition, that is very good, and if anyone in a humble way begs, that is bad. This is your culture. Vedic way allows the brahmacārī to beg just to learn humbleness, not beggar. Coming from very big, big family all family, they practice it. This is not begging. This is to learn how to become humble and meek. And Christ said, "To the humble and meek, God is available." It is not begging. You do not know what is this culture. You have your own culture, devil's culture, to kill even one's own child. How you'll understand what is this culture? Am I right or wrong?
Satsvarūpa: You're right.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Describe in letter. You have got fourth-class, tenth-class culture. How you'll understand the culture of becoming meek and humble?
Satsvarūpa: The District Attorney who was trying to prosecute us, Ādi-keśava, he reveals his strategy here because many lawyers say that we have a right to practice our religion. This is freedom of religion. He says...
Prabhupāda: Free... It is bona fide religion.
Satsvarūpa: He said "But it's not a question of religion." He said, "What we're..." He said, "Mind control has nothing to do with religion. It's a question of individual free will. I don't think an individual in his right state of mind would allow someone else to control his mind. Just think of it in terms of hypnosis."
Prabhupāda: Mind control is everything.
Satsvarūpa: Anything.
Prabhupāda: You are trying also. Now they are also trying mind control, our men kidnapping by force. This is another mind control. They have already given up their mind to us, and you are trying to control his mind by force-deprogramming, kidnapping. Is it not mind control? Here his mind is already in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and by force you are trying to deviate him. Is it not mind control? "And your mind control is good. My mind control is bad." That is your philosophy. So anyone, any rascal, will say, "My activities are good, and your activities are bad."
Satsvarūpa: Anyway, on the whole, this report, it's a little more in our favor than not, I noticed. The good things are...
Prabhupāda: No these things should be protested. They must publish. Answer.
Satsvarūpa: They had a nice statement in here by the president of Boston temple, Aja, Aja dāsa.
Prabhupāda: But the name Kṛṣṇa is there.
Satsvarūpa: Oh yes, everywhere. Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: (chuckling) That is our advertisement. What is the heading?
Satsvarūpa: "The Hare Kṛṣṇa Puzzle."
Prabhupāda: Bah, that's all. Kṛṣṇa is there, that's all. Hare Kṛṣṇa is there. That is our triumph. We don't mind what the nonsense is speaking. We don't mind.
Satsvarūpa: Even this one lady, she's chanting in reverse. She says, "They'll do anything for Kṛṣṇa. That's bad, a bad thing," she said.
Prabhupāda: That is mind control, Another mind control. You are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Since the rascals have taken up, he is speaking differently. That is mind control.
Satsvarūpa: So much for that.
Prabhupāda: Hm. That's all. Now, photograph ours? No.
Satsvarūpa: Yes. This is... (end)
Car Conversation

February 5, 1977, Calcutta
Jayapatākā: ...and you do little work and get more money. You can buy radio and tape recorder. And working in the field, that is not noble.
Prabhupāda: Just see how foolish leaders. In the field there is food. They will not work for the food. [break]
Jayapatākā: ...get a big staff after publishing our monthly magazine for some time. And I'm thinking we can... If there's... Like that editor of the Basumati, if they join us and help, we can bring a daily paper, and then these can be some of our...
Prabhupāda: If somebody came to see me, some editor...?
Jayapatākā: Yes. He wanted to... [break] ...the train station to catch the trains.
Prabhupāda: Going to Calcutta?
Jayapatākā: Most likely Calcutta and then different factories and workers. That Hitagar and Chamnagar and all those places.
Devotee: Calcutta. (end)
Morning Walk Excerpt

February 10, 1977, Māyāpura
Prabhupāda: You should always remember. Don't manufacture ideas. As you do...
Devotee: Should we change this one?
Prabhupāda: No, no. It is all right, but don't dare like that.
Devotee: Yes
Bhavānanda: Risky. (end)
Room Conversation

February 10, 1977, Māyāpura
Prabhupāda: ...how such gṛhastha. It is never recognized.
Jayapatākā: You are actually the only one preaching there. You're the only one who has showed any preaching capacity.
Prabhupāda: No self-interest—that is the difference. I wanted to serve. That is the difference. But now it is clear. None of them, they want to serve. They want to make one establishment so that they can eat and sleep. Of course, there is some preaching, but if, there is, preaching is the purpose, why they should separate? That is not the purpose. The purpose is that "I must have some separate establishment as ordinary karmīs they have got their separate establishment." Preaching is not that, neither they can preach with enviousness. So, what to do?
Jayapatākā: In any case, he has not yet accepted, and it will take sometime to build your house.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is not... On principle, I am talking on the principle. That is not yet. It will take some, at least two, three years or at least one year, but this is the position. This Dāmodara Mahārāja you have already experience about... (laughs)
Bhavānanda: Yes. And he is like an ant compared to them.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: He is like an ant. They are more envious.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: He has no intelligence.
Prabhupāda: They are like wasp.
Jayapatākā: Even yesterday, Madhusūdana Mahārāja, he was insulting Dāmodara to his face. He said, Dāmodara Mahārāja... His brahmacārī asked him, "Are you coming?" And he said, "No. I'll stay." And Madhusūdana said, "Yes, you have to stay and give all the reports to Śrīdhara Mahārāja. Getting all the information, now you have to give all the reports. You have much important things to discuss. You stay and give all these secret reports."
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? He was saying like that?
Jayapatākā: Yes. I was surprised.
Prabhupāda: When?
Jayapatākā: When you took rest and they were downstairs. So he said like that to Dāmodara.
Prabhupāda: Oh. He is appointed to take secret reports.
Jayapatākā: Yes. I guess he goes and gets the report.
Bhavānanda: Self-appointed.
Hari-śauri: That's his business. He goes from one place to another, gossiping.
Jayapatākā: Who appointed, that I don't know. But that's his business. And then Dāmodara was telling about his journey on the bus and train, but Madhusūdana Mahārāja didn't seem very interested. He criticized, "Why do you go to Kumbhamela? What is going for bathing? What is special about that bath?" And then he challenged that, "We go for preaching." "But what preaching you did there?" "No, I preached, gave lectures."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayapatākā: Dāmodara Mahārāja said, "I gave lecture at the mandira, Gauḍīya Maṭha."
Prabhupāda: In Allahabad.
Jayapatākā: One advantage is they don't know any... Of course now, we have so many Bengali devotees. They don't know much English. They can generally speak most only in Bengali, most of these Godbrothers.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, he's surrounded by these men. I don't think he'll come. I think they will...
Jayapatākā: They'll influence him not to come.
Bhavānanda: Yes. They are always there, around, around, around.
Prabhupāda: No, whatever they like, they do, but I think we shall not insist on this point because we cannot stop the association.
Jayapatākā: And if we hear anything against your Divine Grace it is more painful than death for us.
Prabhupāda: They are very envious.
Jayapatākā: There's one good news, Śrīla Prabhupāda. Gargamuni called last night. Mahendra had informed him that we're going to have our 747 jumbo jet land in Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jayapatākā: It will be the first commercial flight. They have 310 people coming on the flight.
Prabhupāda: So the government will receive.
Jayapatākā: Then the government will receive them. It will be publicized all over India.
Prabhupāda: Very good. When they are coming?
Jayapatākā: I'm going to call again today to find exact date. About 24th, 25th.
Prabhupāda: What is the date today?
Jayapatākā: Two weeks only.
Prabhupāda: So in the meantime, your, this thing will be finished or not?
Jayapatākā: They all say that it will be finished in about five days, the wiring, and five days the flooring. And the bathrooms are already finished on the first floor. They're putting the fittings, and half of them are put in.
Bhavānanda: The floors will not be polished, but...
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.
Bhavānanda: Water will be there, electricity, and clean.
Jayapatākā: So this morning you won't go..., be going on a walk. You're not feeling up to a walk this morning? It affected your kidney or your digestion?
Prabhupāda: That I cannot say. But the foodstuff is not digesting. That can I say. I am not feeling at all appetite.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda I haven't digested either from yesterday.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā? What is the reason?
Satsvarūpa: I don't know. Eating here was very nice, and now, since yesterday...
Hari-śauri: I digested all mine. (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Same digestion. (laughter—break)
Jayapatākā: Śrīdhara Swami is such a learned person... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...here is envious. So envious, upekṣā, means they should not be associated. Īśvare tad-adhīneṣu bāliśeṣu dviṣatsu ca. Four division: God, īśvara; and tad-adhīneṣu. Devotees, those who have accepted... [break] That is devotee. Bāliśa, those who are innocent. Preaching...
Jayapatākā: Like child, bāliśa.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They should be trained up. And dviṣatsu, envious. Four division. So four divisions you have to treat in different ways. Prema, Lord, prema, love. Maitrī, friendship with devotees. Kṛpā bāliśu, those who are innocent, the kṛpā. Let them learn. And upekṣā. As soon as come to the dviṣat, no cooperation. Keep aloof. So when we try to keep aloof from the envious, that is not our enviousness. That is just to avoid trouble for preaching work. Not that we hate them. But because... When you avoid a snake, it does not mean I hate the snake, but because he is harmful we have to take precaution. This is the statement of Bhāgavatam. And when you are in the mahā-bhāgavata stage, first-grade, that time, paramahaṁsa, nobody's enemy, nobody's friend. Everyone... That we cannot imitate. It is not... Preacher, even if he's mahā-bhāgavata, he comes to the second stage. Just like Guru Mahārāja. He's mahā-bhāgavata, but still he had to come to the second stage. He had to take precaution. That is natural. There are so many enemies of...
Jayapatākā: We were remembering how Nitāi had been poisoned, Nitāi and Yogānanda are your disciples. They were recently poisoned.
Prabhupāda: Hm. By whom?
Jayapatākā: By bad association. Nitāi?
Prabhupāda: Ah hah, ah, yes.
Jayapatākā: That... So many devotees are very innocent. They'll fall prey. They'll be impressed by some fancy talking and then can be misled.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: But Your Divine Grace is very expert in very carefully training them up stage by stage.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: But other, they like to go right to the higher philosophy.
Prabhupāda: Last night I could not work.
Arundhati: Pradyumna just gave me a tape. It must have been from the other night?
Prabhupāda: Ācchā?
Arundhati: So...
Jayapatākā: It's a very...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just to give them protection. So when we avoid envious persons, that is the injunction of the śāstras. This man wrote to the chief minister or prime minister complaining about them?
Jayapatākā: About his electric connection.
Prabhupāda: Who?
Jayapatākā: That Mahesh Pandit. You're talking about the man of Mahesh Pandit?
Prabhupāda: No, no. This Dāmodara Mahārāja.
Jayapatākā: The chief minister.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: Yes? He gave false name; he signed it false. He said that we're coming with banduka and chasing the sādhus and that we're harassing people, beating them. So many things he wrote, false. He said, "Most envious is Bhavānanda and just like him is Jayapatākā." Then he said that "Tapomaya, he is simply their lackey. He goes and harasses people," this and that. Then the police came, and they showed us the letter, and we both looked at each other and said, "This looks like something that Dāmodara Mahārāja would do." So we advised the police, "We think that he did it." So the police went over there and they said as soon as they had the letter he started shaking. They said, "Is this your letter?" He said, "No." He says, "You wrote this letter." Because they could see he was nervous. They are experienced. They said, "All right, you give your signature." And then he signed, and although he tried to change it, they said, "No. This is the same signature. Now we're going to take you to the thānā." [police station] "No, no. I am sometimes a little crazy." Āmi ekṭu pāgala. "I didn't mean this..." Then he admitted. But he sent that to the chief minister.
Prabhupāda: Just see. How envious.
Jayapatākā: Naturally, any letter to the chief minister, they...
Prabhupāda: Take action.
Jayapatākā: ...take action.
Prabhupāda: He is dangerous. He has proved dangerous in so many ways. (end)
Room Conversation

February 12, 1977, Māyāpura
Prabhupāda: For the time being, suspended?
Jayapatākā: I don't like to make opinion till I go and see.
Prabhupāda: Hm. What was their proposal?
Jayapatākā: Well, they come and... [break]
Prabhupāda: Our mission is to preach Gaurāṅga philosophy. Therefore we are taking. So why the municipal cannot give land for this public purpose?
Jayapatākā: That's what I mean, is that I think that if we saw actually what law that is and then we discuss it in a proper way it might be possible.
Prabhupāda: It is lying vacant. So...
Jayapatākā: There are so many places which are like that, where there is mandira being built and and sevā-pūjā is going on, and there is one sevāita or one organization has got the sevā responsibility, and that's under their charge. I think that that legality can be worked around, whatever it may be. Because our purpose is public.
Prabhupāda: The municipal means public.
Jayapatākā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So for public benefit why they shall not give?
Jayapatākā: Even that place at Calcutta, they never said it was illegal to give to us. They only said they didn't want to give. That Calcutta pukura, they never said it was illegal to give. So in this place, they said they want to give. So why they should...?
Prabhupāda: Where is illegality? For public, it is a historical place.
Jayapatākā: They might have come to see whether we would do... You have a light?
Prabhupāda: The light is outside. There is no lantern? No, one will do.
Jayapatākā: We never met this municipal executive. He might have just suggested that "Let's see if they'll do it without giving them."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Jayapatākā: This municipal executive we didn't meet. He's just appointed by the government. He might have just suggested something like "Let's see if they'll do the work without us being very firmly obligated," Just testing us. Exactly what... But we can't do anything like that. But maybe that Gargamuni didn't understand their English very well, or they didn't...
Prabhupāda: So tomorrow you'll go to see whom?
Jayapatākā: I was thinking to go Monday because tomorrow is Sunday.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jayapatākā: So many times they've come. I don't see that suddenly their story should change so drastically.
Prabhupāda: They came before also?
Jayapatākā: Oh yes. They came even to Māyāpura. They have shown some enthusiasm and now at the last minute, they'll change their story so much.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: It doesn't seem... It might be some misunderstanding.
Prabhupāda: And why they don't reply it? We have...
Jayapatākā: Yes, they have... They should give us, anyway, written reply. Why they are verbally saying? Whatever they say, they should say in writing. We have written. [break]
Prabhupāda: Yes. [break] ...milk, you get gobar.
Jayapatākā: One boy has come from Miami who has been trained to work with the cows, a gṛhastha, and he is considering seriously to stay and develop this...
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Jayapatākā: ...so we can have enough milk for all the devotees.
Prabhupāda: Name.
Jayapatākā: His name was...
Satsvarūpa: Janārdana? No.
Jayapatākā: Yes, I think so. Janārdana.
Prabhupāda: What is the name?
Jayapatākā: Janārdana.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Jayapatākā: And that gentleman you were just talking with this morning, he is the head of the department of veterinary, of tropical college of medicine on Chittaranjan.
Prabhupāda: What is his name?
Jayapatākā: Mr. Rao.
Prabhupāda: Raot?
Jayapatākā: Raot maybe, yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He's good man. He offered me obeisances flat. Hm. So he's a good man.
Jayapatākā: Last time he came he was chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa much.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So treat him nicely.
Jayapatākā: I offered that he should come at least once or twice a month. He can see the cows, and he can take prasāda, and we'll give him...
Prabhupāda: With family come. And he'll have good association of the devotees.
Jayapatākā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣi-go-rakṣya-vāṇijyam [Bg. 18.44]. The other day you were asking me about the wages, labor.
Jayapatākā: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So our point is the devotees shall work. So there is no program to pay wages.
Jayapatākā: Gradually, more and more, we're getting more devotees who can work in the agriculture. But to date, most of the people that join are either the handloomers or... We're getting mostly handloomers and to some extent some more learned, more educated boys.
Prabhupāda: Not labor class.
Jayapatākā: Not labor class. But we need them also for translation and other things. So to make up the gap them we had to hire. But that's lessened... Now we're getting also. Some labor class are joining.
Prabhupāda: So hire. That also he can become devotee. He can spare fifty percent of his income. Then he becomes a devotee. Hiring men and working, I don't think that will be very profitable. Then we can purchase from the market.
Jayapatākā: Even a lot of men are used for making the garden. In the beginning, converting the land to garden land for flowers requires a lot of labor. Because flowers require very...
Prabhupāda: Fertile.
Jayapatākā: ...fertile and particularly fine soil that has to be dug and chopped and cleaned out.
Prabhupāda: Ordinary soil flower does not grow?
Jayapatākā: No, it... Not so well. In our city project we are thinking that those laborers who would be devotees, mostly the labor class, they won't like to live separate from their families. So we were thinking that they could be paid something, and then they would give half of that, as you suggested, back. In this way they would be devotees, And they would eat prasāda with everyone and attend all the programs, but they'd buy their own cloth and things with the other half. But they would have to have separate quarters somewhere.
Prabhupāda: Where? Within our campus or outside?
Jayapatākā: That would be a separate area. Of course, in that vast city project there was enough room for different quarters where one place brahmacārīs could stay, other place, families. Just like now it's actually getting overcrowded for the handlooms. We should have a separate, one big handloom place. That would be more efficient.
Prabhupāda: Where you have?
Jayapatākā: Where... Just the place would have to be... Their place is a bit irregular. Seeing the ultimate plan, we have to find out one place. It would be in this area somewhere. Now they're keeping records of how much is spent on agriculture, and how much is received. So what is the profit or loss, that can be ascertained. And actually that's not such a threat because I know that many of the things he is doing by contract. If at some time we need outside laborer for, say, harvest time, we need to harvest—so we pay them ten rupees or twenty rupees to harvest one bighā. So there is no question of labor. That is the contract.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: In so many ways we can...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jayapatākā: ...go around that.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Jayapatākā: Envious people just trying to upset. The Western devotees that come, they are amazed that all of the devotees that are here, all the families are living separate from their wives. No temple has achieved that yet.
Prabhupāda: Everything can be done by practice.
Jayapatākā: The hari-nāma is purifying them because they are chanting so many hours. Now, when we give class, they also ask questions.
Prabhupāda: Life is coming.
Jayapatākā: Yes. Taking time. (laughs)
Prabhupāda: That is the fact.
Jayapatākā: You can put the life in the dead man Śrīla Prabhupāda. We were all practically dead but you are putting life in us.
Prabhupāda: I don't think in any other place there are so many activities.
Jayapatākā: No.
Prabhupāda: They come during that festival only.
Satsvarūpa: Every night many people come. (end)
Room Conversation
Varṇāśrama System
Must Be Introduced

February 14, 1977, Māyāpura
Satsvarūpa: ...thought they were suppressed.
Prabhupāda: Revolution means they are dissatisfied.
Satsvarūpa: French Revolution, Russian Revolution.
Prabhupāda: These things were not going nicely. Therefore gradually it broke. But if things are going nicely, people will be happy. They will not revolt. You have to keep the citizens satisfied in all respects. You must know the necessity how people are satisfied. You have to arrange the government in that way. Then there will be no revolution. Mass of people, if they are satisfied, they will not revolt. But they do not know the process. The "demoncracy," the common man is allowed to vote. He has no knowledge and he's voting. This is most condemned process. Camara-bhangi, a sweeper, he is voted to become Minister of Defense. His business is to cleanse the street, and now he's voted to become because he has got number of votes. So many bhangis, they vote, "Yes, he is our leader. He should be Defense Minister." You have to do that. This is democracy. His business is to sweep, and he's voted a defense minister.
Hari-śauri: But in, say in America, they argue that everybody's educated now. In America...
Prabhupāda: What educated? Educated means hippies. That's all. This is their education. They do not know what is meant by education. Education... University student was informed that "Next birth you may become a dog," so he said, "What is the wrong there?" This is education. Is that education, that he agrees to become a dog very happily? There is no education. Simply waste of time.
Satsvarūpa: But at least if there is extreme exploitation by a king or dictator it can't be changed. But the people...
Prabhupāda: There cannot be exploitation if things are made in order. Just like kṣatriya should be trained up as kṣatriya. Then he is king. Not that a bhangi by vote becomes a king. This is education.
He must be very powerful, very strong, strongly built. You have seen the picture, Rāmacandra? Sturdy body. You see. Lakṣmaṇa. Because kṣatriya. They should be trained up as kṣatriya. Therefore the varṇāśrama college is required to train people who is able to become a brāhmaṇa, who is able to become a kṣatriya, who is able to become... In this way division must be. And according to the quality and work there must be division for cooperation. There is a big scheme. They have lost. They do not know. All bhangis, camara, śūdras, they are simply given vote. That's all. Where is the training?
Hari-śauri: But what is the use of having big strong body if now they're using airplanes and tanks and guns.
Prabhupāda: That is your useless waste of time. Why? Therefore the war does not stop, unnecessary war, and such a big war, Kurukṣetra, in eighteen days it is finished. This is decision. And this is going on, continually war, strain, politics, diplomacy, lecture, Parliament. There is no finishing of war. There is no finishing. It will go on. Just like same example: If you keep the dogs as dogs, they'll going on barking. It will never finish. So this is the civilization of dog work. It is not human civilization. Therefore it is going on. War is not stopped. Where is stop? War is stopped? No. Going on. And it will go on because they are dogs. You cannot stop their barking. There are so many things. If we follow the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, then whole world will be... This is a fact. Now, how to implement it, that is another thing. It is a fact.
Hari-śauri: Because even the yavanas and mlecchas were following the kṣatriya system in Kṛṣṇa's time. Just like Jarāsandha. He had all the chivalrous respect of a kṣatriya even though he was a demon. But nowadays everybody's... No one is...
Prabhupāda: Everybody's śūdra. Nobody's brāhmaṇa, nobody's...
Prabhupāda: Śūdra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied.
Hari-śauri: If that's done then how will those who have some potential to be educated, how will we recognize them?
Prabhupāda: Either educate them or control them. Give them facility of education. But there is no education at all. Even for the whites there is no education. So we are stressing on the point of education. You educate certain section as brāhmaṇa, certain section as kṣatriya, certain section as vaiśya. In that education we don't discriminate because he's coming of a śūdra family. Take education. Be qualified. Then you talk. Not by votes.
Satsvarūpa: Lord Caitanya, when Rāmānanda Rāya brought this up He said it was not possible in this age to introduce this.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not... He did not say possible. Ihā bāhya. Caitanya Mahāprabhu was interested only on the spiritual platform. He had no idea of material side. He rejected material side.
Satsvarūpa: But don't we do that also?
Prabhupāda: No. Our position is different. We are trying to implement Kṛṣṇa consciousness in everything. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally took sannyāsa. He rejected completely material. Niṣkiñcana. But we are not going to be niṣkiñcana. We are trying to cement the troubled position of the... That is also in the prescription of Bhagavad-gītā. We are not rejecting the whole society. Caitanya Mahāprabhu rejected everything, ihā bāhya. Rejected meaning, "I do not take much interest in this." Bāhya. "It is external." He was simply interested in the internal, the spiritual. But our duty is that we shall arrange the external affairs also so nicely that one day they will come to the spiritual platform very easily, paving the way. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu, personality like that, they have nothing to do with this material world. But we are preaching. We are preaching. Therefore we must pave the situation in such a way that gradually they will be promoted to the spiritual plane, which is not required.
Satsvarūpa: Varṇāśrama is not required.
Prabhupāda: Not required. Caitanya Mahāprabhu denied, "I am not brāhmaṇa, I am not kṣatriya, I am not this, I am not this." He rejected. But in the Bhagavad-gītā, the cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam [Bg. 4.13]. So we are Kṛṣṇa..., preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It must be done.
Hari-śauri: But in Caitanya Mahāprabhu's practical preaching He only induced them to chant.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible for ordinary man.
Hari-śauri: What, to simply induce people to chant?
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Hari-śauri: He only introduced just the chanting.
Prabhupāda: But who will chant? Who'll chant?
Satsvarūpa: But if they won't chant, then neither will they train up in the varṇāśrama. That's the easiest.
Prabhupāda: The chanting will be there, but you cannot expect that people will chant like Caitanya Mahāprabhu. They cannot even chant sixteen rounds. (And) these rascals are going to be Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
Satsvarūpa: No. But if they at least will chant and take some prasāda...
Prabhupāda: Chanting will go on. That is not stopped. But at the same time the varṇāśrama-dharma must be established to make the way easy.
Hari-śauri: Well, at least my own understanding was that the chanting was introduced in the age of Kali because varṇāśrama is not possible.
Prabhupāda: Because it will cleanse the mind. Chanting will not stop.
Hari-śauri: So therefore the chanting was introduced to replace all of the systems of varṇāśrama and like that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, it can replace, but who is going to replace it? The... People are not so advanced. If you imitate Haridāsa Ṭhākura to chant, it is not possible.
Satsvarūpa: We tell them go on with your job but chant also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Thākaha āpanāra kāje, Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura. Āpanāra kāja ki. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended, sthāne sthitaḥ. And if they do not remain in the sthāna, then the sahajiyā's chanting will come. Just like the sahajiyās also have got the beads and..., but they have got three dozen women. This kind of chanting will go on. Just like our (name withheld). He was not fit for sannyāsa but he was given sannyāsa. And five women he was attached, and he disclosed. Therefore varṇāśrama-dharma is required. Simply show-bottle will not do. So the varṇāśrama-dharma should be introduced all over the world, and...
Satsvarūpa: Introduced starting with ISKCON community?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Brāhmaṇa, kṣatriyas. There must be regular education.
Hari-śauri: But in our community, if the..., being as we're training up as Vaiṣṇavas...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: ...then how will we be able to make divisions in our society?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava is not so easy. The varṇāśrama-dharma should be established to become a Vaiṣṇava. It is not so easy to become Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: No, it's not a cheap thing.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore this should be made. Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava, is not so easy. If Vaiṣṇava, to become Vaiṣṇava is so easy, why so many fall down, fall down? It is not easy. The sannyāsa is for the highest qualified brāhmaṇa. And simply by dressing like a Vaiṣṇava, that is... fall down.
Hari-śauri: So the varṇāśrama system is like for the kaniṣṭhas, Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha?
Hari-śauri: When one is only on the platform of neophyte.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, yes.
Hari-śauri: Varṇāśrama system is beneficial.
Prabhupāda: Kaniṣṭha-adhikārī means he must be a brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. The spiritual life, kaniṣṭha-adhikārī, means he must be a qualified brāhmaṇa. That is kaniṣṭha. What is esteemed as very high position in the material world, brāhmaṇa, that is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī.
The brāhmaṇa means from the material stage gradually he is elevated to the spiritual stage. And below the brāhmaṇa there is no question of Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: No question of?
Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇavism.
By becoming a brāhmaṇa, hearing, hearing, hearing... Or by hearing, hearing, hearing, he becomes a brāhmaṇa. The other qualities, śūdra quality, kṣatriya, vaiśya, means finished. So then next stage is, śṛṇvatāṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ puṇya-śravaṇa-kīrtanaḥ, hṛdy antaḥ... Naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. By this process, hearing... Without becoming a brāhmaṇa nobody is interested to hear. Then, by hearing, naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu, then abhadra, means the base qualities, means ignorance and passion... These are the base qualities. So naṣṭa-prāyeṣv abhadreṣu. When these base qualities are finished almost, not complete, nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, by hearing from Bhāgavata or by serving the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement-
Then he becomes fixed up in devotional... This devotional service is the first-grade quality of sattva-guṇa.
Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ [SB 1.2.19]. When one is situated as a devotee, then this base quality, rajas-tamaḥ, ignorance and passion, the symptoms: kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye. Kāma, lusty desires, and greediness. Sex desire, strong sex desire or satisfy the senses, eating too much, lobha, greediness—these things go. Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā bhagavaty uttama... When one is situated in devotional service, tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. These are rajas-tamo... These are the symptoms of rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ. Tadā rajas-tamo-bhāvāḥ kāma-lobhādayaś ca ye, ceta etair anāviddham [SB 1.2.19]. The mind is no more disturbed with all these things. Sthitaṁ sattve prasīdati. Then he is to be understood... He's in the sattva-guṇa. That is perfect brahminical life. Then he'll be pleased. Prasīdati. In this way, gradual step... So it is very difficult to bring, introduce varṇāśrama, but at least there must be some idea. Just like in the university, nobody is going to study higher mathematics, higher English literature. Nobody goes even in your country. The classes are almost vacant. But still, the government does not close it. The expenditure is high, but there is no student, no income. Therefore the professors coming to us, "Give us some student." You know that?
Satsvarūpa: Religion professors.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, higher studies...
Satsvarūpa: Yes. "Send us some of your men."
Prabhupāda: Nobody is interested with higher study. They want some technological understanding so that they can earn money. That's all. This is only interest.
Satsvarūpa: In our ISKCON, one becomes a brāhmaṇa after a year. It's not very hard. Everyone becomes a brāhmaṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is due to chanting. That lift very easily.
Hari-śauri: Where will we introduce the varṇāśrama system, then?
Prabhupāda: In our society, amongst our members.
Hari-śauri: But then if everybody's being raised to the brahminical platform...
Prabhupāda: Not everybody. Why you are misunderstanding? Varṇāśrama, not everybody brāhmaṇa.
Hari-śauri: No, but in our society practically everyone is being raised to that platform. So then one might ask what is...
Prabhupāda: That is... Everybody is being raised, but they're falling down.
Hari-śauri: So then we should make it more difficult to get...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: ...brahminical initiation. After four or five years.
Prabhupāda: Not necessary. You remain as a kṣatriya. You'll be ha...
Hari-śauri: No need for even any brāhmaṇa initiation, then...
Prabhupāda: No, no.
Hari-śauri: ...unless one is...
Prabhupāda: No, brāhmaṇa must be there. Why do you say, generalize?
Hari-śauri: Unless one is particularly...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hari-śauri: ...inclined.
Prabhupāda: Not that a śūdra man is by force become a brāhmaṇa. You cannot improve. That is not possible. But even if he remains a śūdra and does accordingly, he will get the same position as devotee. Sva-karmaṇā tam abhyarcya sam... [Bg. 18.46]. He'll get the perfection. At the present moment the idea is: if one remains a śūdra, then he cannot get perfection. No. Even a śūdra can get perfection provided he does the work of a śūdra perfectly.
Prabhupāda: Therefore why a śūdra artificially should be a brāhmaṇa? Let them, let him remain a śūdra, and if he follows strictly the rules and regulation of śūdra, he'll also be as good as a brāhmaṇa. The same example: Just like head is as important as my leg. It is not that because it is leg, it is less important than my head. And if you ask the head, "Do the work of a leg," it is impossible. And if you ask the leg to work as a brain, that is impossible. Let him remain brain, let him remain leg, and do your duty and you become perfect.
Satsvarūpa: Today you've been saying that the Vaiṣṇava is the highest, above the brāhmaṇa. But then we've also understood that everyone in ISKCON is a Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Vaiṣṇava everyone, even if he's not brāhmaṇa. Jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Cc. Madhya 20.108-109]. But you have to gradually bring him to that pure consciousness that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa." Here the bodily conception is going on, "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am this," "I am that."
Satsvarūpa: If in our society we say, "Śrīla Prabhupāda wants some to be śūdra..."
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. I don't want. I want everyone to become Vaiṣṇava. But because he's a śūdra, it is not possible to bring him immediately to the platform of brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava. Therefore falling down. Therefore system must be. But even if he remains a śūdra, he's a Vaiṣṇava.
Hari-śauri: So we'd have to completely revise the whole system that we have now.
Prabhupāda: No. Whatever we have, that is all right. But we see by experience that they're falling down. There must be systematic. Why falling down? Because he was not fit for the position, therefore he has fallen. Better remain in his position and become perfect. Why artificially bring them? There is no need. Kṛṣṇa says. Bring that Bhagavad-gītā. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ?
"By following his qualities of work, every man can become perfect. Now please hear from Me how this can be done."
Prabhupāda: Yes. He is śūdra, clerk. He can... As a śūdra, he can get the perfection. Why he should artificially become a brāhmaṇa and sannyāsī and fall down? This has to be checked.
Hari-śauri: So that depends upon our men who are giving recommendations.
Prabhupāda: So that recommendation is not good. Bible is giving so many recommendation. He's also not following them. (laughs)
Hari-śauri: Following them. So how will we implement? Right now we have... Every temple president can...
Prabhupāda: That is supposed. Where there is no tree, a castor seed tree is very big tree. That is going on.
Satsvarūpa: If there's no tree?
Prabhupāda: You know castor seed tree, a plant? it does not grow.
Satsvarūpa: Small.
Prabhupāda: Small. So there is no banyan tree. It is taken—"Oh, it is very big."
Hari-śauri: I don't follow the analogy.
Satsvarūpa: In the complete absence of trees, then a small tree is considered big.
Hari-śauri: Oh. (laughs) Well, say, like here in Māyāpura now we have a situation...
Prabhupāda: No, no. Why? Why one should stress to become big tree? Here it is clearly said even if you are small tree, you can get perfection. So we should take that.
Hari-śauri: So in Māyāpura here now we have that situation, that so many...
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, wherever, Māyāpura or anywhere. Question is that here it is clearly said, sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ. Brāhmaṇa has his duty, kṣatriya has his duty, vaiśya has his duty, śūdra has his duty. And if he performs his duty nicely, then he also becomes perfect. So why artificially he should be called a brāhmaṇa? Let them do, according to śāstra, the work of śūdra, or vaiśya. He'll get the perfect. Perfection is not checked. But why artificially he should be made a brāhmaṇa or he should be made a sannyāsī and fall down and become a ludicrous? That is the point. Better let him live in his position and become perfect. That's good. That looks very nice. And that is possible. That is possible. Varṇāśramācāravatā puruṣeṇa paraḥ pumān viṣṇur ārādhyate [Cc. Madhya 8.58]. Viṣṇu, Lord Viṣṇu, can be worshiped if you perfectly follow the rules and regulation of four varṇas and four āśramas. Here it is also said, sve sve karmaṇi. You work as a perfect brāhmaṇa or a perfect kṣatriya, perfect śūdra; you get perfection. The perfection is available in your natural life. Why should artificially you become unnatural and fall down and become ludicrous? Perfection is not checked.
Satsvarūpa: But in most of our temples, the duties are either Deity worship, brāhmaṇa...
Prabhupāda: Brāhmaṇas are available. Why you are bothering about this? Brāhmaṇas are also available, śūdras are also available. Why śūdra should be artificially become a brāhmaṇa?
Satsvarūpa: What will the śūdras do in the big city temple, in all the temples?
Prabhupāda: Why you are bringing our temples? I am talking of the principle.
Satsvarūpa: Oh.
Hari-śauri: The principle we follow. We're just thinking how it can be implemented. You were saying that it should be started in our society.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a very broad idea. Now we are speaking of some of them, training them. That is another thing. That is small scale.
Hari-śauri: The principle we're following.
Prabhupāda: Yes. In the... For the big scale, this is the required. In big scale you cannot make all of them as brāhmaṇas or sannyāsīs. No. That is not possible. This is a small scale. How many percentage of people of the world we are controlling? Very insignificant. But if you want to make the whole human society perfect, then this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement should be introduced according to the Kṛṣṇa's instruction, if you want to do it in a large scale for the benefit of the whole human society. Now we are picking up some of them, best. That is another thing. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu said para-upakāra. Why a certain section should be picked up? The whole mass of people will get the benefit of it. Then it is required, systematic. Sve sve karmaṇy abhirataḥ saṁsiddhiṁ labhate naraḥ. Para-upakāra means mass benefit, not there is certain section. Then we have to introduce this varṇāśrama-dharma. It must be done perfectly, and it is possible and people will be happy.
Satsvarūpa: It requires powerful influence in the society to...
Prabhupāda: Yes. If the leaders of the society, they agree. They are barking like dogs in the United Nation. They should take rightly the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. Then everything will be all right. They're simply barking like dogs. What benefit is there? What benefit people have derived from the United Nation? Nothing. So if they want actually world peace, world unity, they must take the formula given by Kṛṣṇa. That is our duty. Because we are preaching Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so our duty is to convince that "You are uselessly wasting your time for unity, for benefit of the human... You take this. You'll be happy." We are safe. We have taken to Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet shelter. There is no doubt. But... Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. He said that "I am quite happy. I have no problem. But I am thinking of these rascals." Tato vimūḍha-cetasa indriyārtha: "They have made the whole aim of life sense gratification." Indriyārtha. "And for that purpose, a few years, they're making huge arrangement, how we shall become happy?" And next life a dog. It is risky. So as Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we should try to save them. That is the duty. But this civilization as it is going on is very risky. They do not know how nature's law is working, how he's going to be a dog next life. He does not know. Mūḍho nābhijānāti. To save the mass people from falling down to the repetition of birth and death, that is welfare activity. To save them by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we have to keep this ideal at least, varṇāśrama, that "Here is the position."
Hari-śauri: At this time should we try to introduce it in our centers or not?
Prabhupāda: Always we shall try. Human society will be always there. We have to serve them, para-upakāra. We have to keep them in the right position.
Hari-śauri: I just remember two or three years ago there was a thing... A pamphlet came out about introducing the varṇāśrama system in the society, but actually nothing came of it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That time was not right. Now you can do something.
Satsvarūpa: That was the beginning of emphasis on farms when Prabhupāda said that, when more and more farms start, the idea of the vaiśya. But nothing else happened.
Prabhupāda: Every business is important. Brāhmaṇa business is important, kṣatriya... Just like the body. Head is important; the arm is important; the belly is important. They must be kept in order. Just like I am in trouble because my belly is not working. Digesting power is not good. So in spite of brain, hand, and leg, I am diseased. If any part of the society remains diseased, the whole society will suffer. Therefore they must be maintained in correct order. You cannot say if there is some trouble in the leg, "Neglect the leg. Take care of the brain." No. Brain will be taxed due to the pain in the leg. This is nature. Therefore everyone should be kept in order. Then things will go on. That is varṇāśrama. They do not know that. Sometimes they are giving stress... That communist is giving stress to the śūdra class, and the capitalist are giving to the belly class. And what about the head? What about the arms? And therefore topsy-turvied. Everything is disorder. There are two classes of men now-capitalist and communist. The communist is giving stress, "No. Simply the legs shall be taken care." What is called? Proly?
Hari-śauri: Proletariat.
Prabhupāda: What is that proletariat?
Satsvarūpa: The laborers.
Prabhupāda: That's all. These rascals are giving stress on the legs. And the capitalists, they are giving stress on production. And where is the kṣatriya and brāhmaṇa?
Hari-śauri: Well, they're all giving stress to accumulation of weapons. They're all giving stress to...
Prabhupāda: That is not kṣatriya's business. That is... That is... No, that is described. Kṛṣṇa said... He arranged the battlefield, because the kṣatriyas, they became very powerful by individual military strength as it is now...
Hari-śauri: Accumulation.
Prabhupāda: Ha. So Kṛṣṇa arranged: "All right, you come together and finish yourselves." So this arrangement will be done that all atomic bomb will come in warfield-one, next, third war, finished. All these, all these demons will be finished. That is not kṣatriya. This is demonic. Kṣatriyas' business is to see that the four orders of life are maintained properly, not increasing military strength only, overburdened. Everyone is spending 75% of the revenue for military. Huh? Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. So they are demons. Why so much money should be spent for military? They are not kṣatriyas. They are not kṣatriyas. They are demons. So demons... As soon as there will be number of demons increased, there will be war and finish all.
Hari-śauri: So at least if we successfully introduce the varṇāśrama system in our own society, then when all the demons finish themselves...
Prabhupāda: At least... At least... At least they will see, "This is the ideal."
Hari-śauri: Yes. Then if there is a war after that, it will be all right.
Prabhupāda: At least ideal must be there. That we are doing.
Hari-śauri: This will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers. If we introduce it, it will more or less revolutionize the way we're running our centers.
Prabhupāda: Why? Why revolution?
Hari-śauri: Because right now our only emphasis is just to simply produce brāhmaṇas.
Prabhupāda: So why you are taking "we"? Why not others? This is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. You are thinking of "we." That is kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. It is not that "we." Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. You have to think for others also.
Satsvarūpa: But the people are not at our disposal to organize.
Hari-śauri: We are thinking of "we" because actually we only have our own society at the moment to organize.
Satsvarūpa: We cannot approach the masses to organize.
Hari-śauri: It can't be implemented on such a big scale.
Prabhupāda: I do not follow what you say.
Satsvarūpa: Just like...
Prabhupāda: Ideal. We are giving the ideal.
Satsvarūpa: But no one's listening and no one's taking it up except a few...
Prabhupāda: But you take. You show them.
Hari-śauri: That's why we say, "we."
Prabhupāda: That "We said" means not we are going to take them, but we are simply giving the ideas. We are not going to be a śūdra. But to show the... Just like you play in a drama. You are playing the part of a king. You are not a king.
Prabhupāda: So similarly, just to give them idea, we have to play like that.
Hari-śauri: Well, again, that's...
Prabhupāda: Not necessarily that we are going to be śūdra. So that is it. That is the thing. We are servant of Kṛṣṇa. That's all. And as servant of Kṛṣṇa, we have to execute the order of Kṛṣṇa.
Satsvarūpa: So we can ideally organize ourselves and then for the rest of the people all we can do is hope that they'll follow it.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: Set the example.
Prabhupāda: Example. Just like Bhavānanda, when there was no commode here. He was taking my stool and urine. Does it mean he is a sweeper? He's a sannyāsī Vaiṣṇava. Similarly, āpani ācari' jīve śikhāilā. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "I am not a sannyāsī." But He took sannyāsa. Actually He is God, so what is the benefit of becoming a sannyāsī, for God? But He became that. [break] In order to serve the mass of people, to bring them to the ideal position, we should try to introduce this varṇāśrama, not that we are going to be candidates of varṇāśrama. It is not our business. But to teach them how the world will be in peaceful position we have to introduce. Now the days of wind will come from March.
Satsvarūpa: Winds begin?
Prabhupāda: And April this wind is...
Satsvarūpa: Winds begin now?
Bhavānanda: Yes. They'll start to come from the south. Vaikuṇṭha breezes.
Prabhupāda: Now here is a very nice institution for the benefit of the whole society human.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, in our preaching in Bengal, many times we come to villages and the people are very sincere. They say that "We have our village, but we need someone here to guide us."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: "If you could make one small little temple with Gaura-Nitāi and have someone here to tell us what to do..." They want to become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Bhavānanda: But there's no one there to guide them.
Prabhupāda: So you reply this, that "You come. I shall train you. You will guide. We are prepared to guide you, but it is not possible to, bring men outside to guide you. You come to us. I shall train you how to guide." This is the reply. And that is wanted. This Bon Mahārāja failed. Why? He wanted... Guru Mahārāja wanted that you start one temple in London. But he was thinking of bringing, taking men from India. Actually he had no.... [break] That is the fact. Therefore he failed. Instead of serving Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī, he wanted to serve Vivekananda. To become like Vivekananda and "I shall be very much eulogized in my country, second Vivekananda." That was his ambition. He never wished to defy Vivekananda and elevate Caitanya Mahāprabhu. He has introduced in his Oriental Institute, Gandhi philosophy, Vivekananda philosophy. Just see his position. He's appreciating... We are simply condemning Gandhi philosophy, and he's appreciating Gandhi. We are simply depreciating Vivekananda, and he's introducing Vivekananda. This is his position. He cannot understand even that where is philosophy in Vivekananda and Gandhi? Gandhi is nationalist. Again problem with your finger. Twenty-four hours, finger problem or nose problem. That I am observing. No attention. So where is philosophy in Vivekananda or Gandhi? He was nationalist. Nationalist means dehātma-buddhi. Dehātma-buddhi means sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13], cows and asses. He worked throughout his whole life for Indian people. In Africa also, he wasted twenty years, and India, thirty years. Fifty years. He lived for seventy-eight years. So twenty-seven years was for his education or something like that and fifty years wasted. This is his position. And he's a big man. Actually he wasted fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in... He started in 1917, and svarāja was, independence was given to India in '47. He had nothing... It is not due to him. It is that Subash Bose's INA. So twenty years there, thirty years-fifty years he wasted of his life. And balance, twenty-seven, education, sex with wife and so on, so on. He was so sexually inclined, he has written in his biography that when his father was dying he was enjoying sex life with his wife. Just see how he was sexually inclined. He could not take the serious illness of his father. He's going to die. He was enjoying his wife. We can... Just from one point we can understand. Everyone is sexual in young days. That is generally. But just see his position, that his father was going to die and he was enjoying sex.
Satsvarūpa: I read that. They called him, so he stopped having sex and went to the bedroom, but it was too late. His father was already dead. So he must have been actually having sex just at the moment his father died.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He has written. Not only that. Nowadays somebody has accused that even in his old age he was having sex with young girls. I do not know. But it is a fact, when he was coming in the meeting he would touch two young girls, granddaughter and granddaughter-in-law, and then come in the meeting. I have seen. One gentleman in our, the Mullick's Thakur Badhi, when we were there. He was attorney. So when there was some function, so all neighboring men were invited. So he was also invited. He would come with at least three, four prostitutes. And he was old man, blind. Asutosh Bhan. He became very rich man by cunning lawyer. He was a lawyer. So he would take a credit that "When I go to a friend's house to keep my invitation, I take some three, four prostitute and flatterer. Then..." And he'd be received very nicely. We have seen when, when we were boys, ten years, twelve years old. I have seen it. Formerly, in our father's time, it was aristocratic to keep one prostitute and keep one garden also. Then he'll get... So this man, dehātma-buddhi and sexually inclined, he is mahātmā. This is the standard of... Ramakrishna, he was worshiping goddess Kālī. It is condemned in the Bhagavad-gītā, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante 'nya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20], that "Anyone who is worshiping a demigod, he is lost of all sense." So this man, by losing his all senses, worshiping a demigod, he became God. People do not take reference from Bhagavad-gītā, that "A demigod worshiper has no sense, and he has become God?" What kind of God? Senseless God? And God's definition is aiśvaryasya samagrasya vīryasya yaśasaḥ śriyaḥ (Viṣṇu Purāṇa 6.5.47), jñāna. God means full in knowledge. And a man who has no sense, he has become God? From logic. Jñāna-vairāgyayaś caiva. God means he has got full knowledge. And this man is senseless and he has become God. Logic, how you can defy? And they're accepting: "Ramakrishna is God." How you defend it? I am giving this logic. Defend.
Satsvarūpa: I've given that argument, and people have said back, "Oh, he didn't say he was God." They say... He said that...
Prabhupāda: No, you are advertising, "Ramakrishna Avatara." "Bhagavan Ramakrishna." "Bhagavan Ramakrishna." Everyone is God—then why you are after God? You remain. You are servant of your wife, your prostitute. Then you are also devotee because everyone is God. A prostitute-hunter is also devotee because he's devoted to the prostitute and prostitute is God. Then why you search out another God? Hm? Everyone is God. Why you search out another God? Why you bring Ramakrishna God? Better remain satisfied with your prostitute, your dog. (pause-talking in background) That Dr. Sharma has given very good (indistinct)?
Satsvarūpa: Yes. Of all commentaries his is the best, including Rāmānuja and Madhva.
ye yathā māṁ prapadyante
tāṁs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
mama vartmānuvartante
manuṣyāḥ pārtha sarvaśaḥ
[Bg. 4.11]
"Everyone follows My path in all respects." So even if I worship the demigods, I am worshiping ultimately Bhagavān. Kṛṣṇa says, "Everyone follows my path in all respects."
Prabhupāda: That is not the meaning. The meaning is: "Everyone is searching after Me, but they, unless they come to Me, they will search one after another position." What is the purport?
Bhavānanda: "Everyone is searching for Kṛṣṇa in different aspects of His manifestations. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is partially realized in His impersonal brahmajyoti effulgence and as the all-pervading Supersoul dwelling within everything including the particles of atoms. But Kṛṣṇa is only fully realized by His pure devotees. Consequently Kṛṣṇa is the object of everyone's realization and thus anyone and everyone is satisfied according to one's desire to have him. In the transcendental..."
Prabhupāda: Brahman... Brahman is also Kṛṣṇa, and Paramātmā is also Kṛṣṇa. So if one is attached to Brahman, he's also worshiping Kṛṣṇa. That is the meaning.
Satsvarūpa: Or even a demigod.
Prabhupāda: Demigod. Everyone is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. But he's searching after real Kṛṣṇa.
Bhavānanda: But what is the harm? Durgā, she is in charge of... She is Kṛṣṇa's agent, so what is the harm in worshiping Durgā?
Prabhupāda: Harm means you remain with Durgā's province. Yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. You cannot expect to go to Kṛṣṇa's place. You have to satisfy yourself and remain within this material world. This is Durgā's place.
Bhavānanda: "Men in this world desire success in fruitive activities and therefore they worship the demigods. Quickly, of course, men get results from fruitive work in this world."
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Bhavānanda: So if I can become happy by worshiping Durgā in this material world...
Prabhupāda: But that... That is māyā. You'll never be happy. You are thinking like that. Who is in the material world happy? Nobody's happy. But because you are fool, you are thinking this is happiness.
Hari-śauri: He says the results are only temporary, anyway.
Prabhupāda: Temporary but it is miserable also. But you are eternal. Why you should be satisfied with temporary happiness? If you be satisfied, be satisfied. That is your business. But that is not real happiness. Why you should take repeated birth and death? If there is another life where there is no birth and death, why should you not take that? You are eternal. But because you are a fool, you think that "If I get ten thousand years of life and very comfortable life, that is happiness." That is mistake. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. That is also said. Why don't you refer to that...? "Such persons have lost that intelligence."
Satsvarūpa: I've heard that Ramakrishna said that even if by mistake one worships the wrong Deity, God won't hold that mistake against him. Even though he's worshiping a demigod and he thinks that's God, so that's a mistake, but God is not so...
Prabhupāda: But the Ramakrishna rascal saying. Kṛṣṇa says, yānti deva-vratā devān [Bg. 9.25]. If you worship demigod, you go to the demigod. You can say...
Satsvarūpa: God Himself says.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes. We have not to take the instruction of a man-made God. We have to take instruction of the real God.
Hari-śauri: The second half of that verse says that "As they surrender unto Me I reward accordingly," So it's not that everybody gets the same results.
Prabhupāda: Yes, accordingly, because nothing can happen without Kṛṣṇa's desire. Even if you want some benefit from the demigods, that must be sanctioned by Kṛṣṇa. That is stated. Mayaiva vihitān hi tān. Find out. Ye 'py anya-devatā. Ye 'py anya-devatā-bhaktāḥ. [break]
Bhavānanda: They also say that everything... They accept everything as part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Everything is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa and everyone has same qualities as Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not the fact. That is rascaldom.
Bhavānanda: One drop of the ocean contains all the qualities of the big ocean, the chemical components...
Prabhupāda: Then all the qualities, not the quantity. Then how it can be equal?
Bhavānanda: But absolute means that a part is also equal to the whole.
Prabhupāda: Equal to the whole in quality, not in quantity.
Bhavānanda: Then in quantity means universal form.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.
Bhavānanda: Not Kṛṣṇa. Not Kṛṣṇa but universal form.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa is... Kṛṣṇa is bigger than the universal form. Kṛṣṇa assumed the universal form, not that universal form made Kṛṣṇa.
Bhavānanda: No, but everyone taken together makes Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa... Arjuna wanted to see His universal form; then Kṛṣṇa assumed. Then Kṛṣṇa is the origin of the universal form. Ahaṁ sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ... [Bg. 10.8]. Even universal form is coming from Kṛṣṇa. These rascals, they do not know.
Bhavānanda: Their philosophy is that everyone taken together forms Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is their philosophy, but everything taken together means that is a partial manifestation of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is still greater.
Bhavānanda: If Kṛṣṇa says that "Everything material and spiritual is coming from Me."
Prabhupāda:"Coming from Me." Therefore He is greater than both material...

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