Room Conversation

February 18, 1977, Mayapura
Prabhupada: ...the words of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Do not forget. What He has said about the Western people?
Hari-sauri: The further West you go, the more demoniac they become.
Prabhupada: You cannot speak? Pascimera loka saba mudha anacara. Find out this verse, where it is.
Jayapataka: Western are all are like asses?
Prabhupada: No, not asses. Yes, mudhas. (chuckles) And anacara, misbehaved.
Jayapataka: Anacara, misbehaved.
Prabhupada: Misbehaved. So this is the words of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. From India, the more you go to the Western side, you'll find all fools, rascals, and misbehaved. Pascimera loka saba mudha anacara. If you become impartial, you'll understand Him. Not clean, eating all, everything nonsense, they do not..., have no brain to understand spiritual life. Are they not mudha anacara? Hm? What do you think?
Jayapataka: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is wrongly said by...? So you should be convinced that the Western people, they have no brain. Now this is brain-giving movement, para-upakara. They have no brain, and we have to educate them. Brain there is. The human brain is meant for that purpose. Even one is an ass, dull, he can be educated. That is their facility. Animals cannot be educated, but human being, even he is born like animal... Just like these children. If you don't educate them, they will remain like that, fools and rascals. If you educate, they'll be nice. So they require to cleanse their brain. Why they are...? That we have to prove. This is the opportunity. They should admit honestly that they have no brain. Now this movement is brain-giving movement. Hm? You are Tripurari. Tripura was the place for the demon, and ari, ari means enemy. You should know very well. The Western people are very much proud of manufacturing very complicated machines. They sometimes report, "We have manufactured this. We have manufactured this." Do they not say?
Hari-sauri: All the time.
Prabhupada: But why not understand this complicated machine? Can they manufacture this machine? It is machine. Bhagavad-gita says. Bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61]. It is machine. Now understand this machine. Produce. They are trying. What is they call? Brain, artificial brain. They have no brain, and they are manufacturing brain. What is that brain? Nobody can say? They have artificial man just like...
Jayapataka: Frankenstein.
Prabhupada: Frankenstein.
Satsvarupa: They themselves have no brain; they can't produce a brain.
Prabhupada: But they are trying, such brainless. They have no brain, and they're trying to make another brain.
Hari-sauri: Svarupa Damodara mentioned about that place he went to in that university in Boston.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: They have a whole department called "artificial intelligence."
Prabhupada: Spending millions and millions in America. You know that? Where it is being done?
Hari-sauri: I think he said it was in Boston.
Prabhupada: In M.I.T.
Hari-sauri: Yeah. And when he asked them, "What was the purpose?" they said, "Well, it's fun." He asked what the purpose was, they said, "Well, it's fun."
Prabhupada: Fun?
Hari-sauri: Fun.
Satsvarupa: Amusement.
Hari-sauri: It's amusement.
Prabhupada: But they unnecessarily spending money. So they have spent unnecessarily for the moon expedition. Money, if you do not know, you'll spend it for unnecessary purpose. That is they are doing. So give them brain, and this money can be spent for Krsna consciousness. They have got money. Why they are trying to manufacture artificial intelligence? What is the purpose?
Tamala Krsna: They want to be able to imitate God.
Prabhupada: Then God is there. (laughs) You have to accept. If you want to imitate God, then God is there. That is our propaganda, not his.
Tamala Krsna: If they say artificial intelligence, it means that there is a real intelligence. And if they're trying to make artificial intelligence, someone must have made real intelligence.
Prabhupada: Real intelligence you see in the flower. How intelligently colorful it is made. Every nature study. Study this machine, how intelligent. And just the hand, coming up, this finger, because we have to capture something, the nail is required. If it would have been all skin, you could not capture. How... And every machine is coming automatically. You study your body. And if the same machine, you producing a machine like that, automatically coming out, one thing, male machine, one female machine, and they'll bring another machine. Where is that? And here God has made such a nice machine. He says, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani [Bg. 18.61]. That is also not made by God. It is made by God's agent, maya. Now, see how God is intelligent. God's servant maya, God says, "Give him a machine like that." Immediately she gives, supplies. Clearly says, bhramayan sar... "He wants to still travel in this material world, bhramayan. He wants to go there. Then all right, give him a machine." He's so kind. He's sitting within your heart. You want to do something. And He's so kind, because you are son, beloved, He says, "These are not required. Better come back. Live peacefully." You'll not hear. "No. I..." Just like naughty child. "All right, Maya, give him. Give him." This is meaning. Hm? What is that? Read it.
"The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy."
Prabhupada: Supplied by maya, the machine, this, that. He has nothing to do. Karan... This is also Vedic mantra. Na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate. Just like I am an ordinary man. If I want to do something, I ask one or two, "Do this." I ask somebody, "Bring some money." I ask somebody that "You do this." So if an ordinary man can do, why God should do anything? Na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate. He has nothing to do. Na tat-samas cabhyadhikas ca drsyate. He can do everything, because nobody is equal to Him, but still does not do anything. Why? Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport]. His energy are so mighty millions that simply by indicating the energy, it will do. This is God. This is God. Just like big man, big industrialist, he simply pushes his button, and the secretary comes: "I want this." Immediately. This is... Ordinary human being can do. So why God has to do? He'll simply dance with the gopis. That's all. That is God. He'll enjoy. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavita... That is God. Therefore everything is done by God's agent or His expansion. Otherwise God has nothing to do. Na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate. Simply indication. Here it is said that Isvara, the Lord, is situated everyone's heart. He can understand "What this rascal wants." He's so kind, He's living as friend. "My dear son, please come back. Why you are desiring so many nonsense things?" But the child will not hear. He wants. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. He wants sense gratification this way, that way, that way, that way. So He gives him facility: "All right." And all facility. He wants to become a tiger, "All fixed." Nails, jaws, fangs—"Become a tiger." Yantra. The body is yantra, perfect yantra. That is supplied by maya. Maya. Daiva-netrena. He wants this, to give up this body. This machine is dead. Now you simply think of a tiger, and you are carried to the womb of the tiger. And the mother gives the body of a tiger. He comes out, enjoys. This is transmigration. The art is so fine. (hammering sound) What is this sound?
Jayapataka: The electric cable from the generator, they're putting clamps on the building.
Prabhupada: Just try to understand how transmigration, that tyaktva deham. Tatha dehantara. How dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13] is... He has proposed or desired, "If I could have possessed such body... If I could have gone in heavenly planets... If I could have become tiger..." In this way he's desiring. Hana mayara dasa kari' nana abhilasa. That's all right. Let him work. Otherwise...
Jayapataka: I can have him do (indistinct), and other system.
Prabhupada: So maya means simply you are desiring one after another, one after another, one after another, one after another. Hm? Who will find out this verse? Hana mayara dasa kari' nana abhilasa. Where it is?
Jayapataka: A song?
Prabhupada: Caitanya-caritamrta. So we're desiring one after, one after, one after, one after... The last desire... Because if you become addicted to certain type of desire, that is prominent at the time of death. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6], sada tad-bhava-bhavitah. So maya's machine is immediately prepared. That mind—manah buddhih ahankara. Subtle. You cannot see. You see the body is burned, finished. Rascal, that is not finished. Na hanyate hanyamane [Bg. 2.20]. It is not finished. There is subtle body. The subtle body carries. The example is just like flavor of rose garden carries, similarly, the desire is carried, and he requires a machine to ride on, particular. So there are eighty-four million machines, and he's, karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1], by the supervision of maya, carried to this mother's womb. The soul is injected through the semina of the father, and he enters the womb of the mother, and mother gives the ingredients, develops his body, and as soon as it is complete, comes out. Where is the difficulty to understand this transmigration of the soul? These rascals have no brain. That verse I have explained this morning.
Hari-sauri: From the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: But they have no brain to understand this. No, no. Not this volume. The Tenth Canto I am explaining now. How nature is working, mayaya... They have no value. They are studying gross science. Actually science means how nature is working. But how nature is working, they do not know, and they are very much proud. "Nature's study..." They say they have studied nature, but they do not know how... Here it is said, bhramayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61]. This machine is made by nature. Do you know how it is made? So where is your brain? This is a machine. And everyone knows this machine is made by nature. So how...? Do you know how it is made? Then where is your brain? You are concerned with the typewriting machine—"cutacutacut." Study this machine. Produce a machine like this. Then where is your brain? What do they answer? What do they answer? They are trying?
Brahmananda(?): Future.
Prabhupada: So in our Back to Godhead these things should be demonstrated, not that imitating that tech position, like this. These things should be... If you have got intelligence, this description what I am giving you, that should be explained. This nonsense should be stopped. That means we are imitating them. Explain this, how, yantrarudhani mayaya [Bg. 18.61], how this machine is being made by maya. Then we shall give them brain. So be intelligent and try to give them brain. And if you remain dull-brained like that, then you'll say, "Yes, yes, you are right." You are not right. Every step we shall... "You are not right. You are wrong. You have no brain." That should be our idea.
Tamala Krsna: Very outspoken. Outspoken.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. "You are all rascals. Prepare a machine... This is machine, Bhagavad-gita. Prepare a machine. Make a female machine and male machine and produce innumerable machine. Then we shall understand that you have got brain." And actually you are seeing. How is that? A male machine and female machine combine together—another machine.
Satsvarupa: They have some machines that have better memories, that can do things that human mind can't do.
Prabhupada: Again you... Again we... How is that?
Satsvarupa: They could challenge that nature's machine is very wonderful, but they can make a machine out of metal and electronics...
Prabhupada: "They can make."
Satsvarupa: There are such machines that have better memory and can figure...
Prabhupada: What is that better memory?
Satsvarupa: Even a calculator can immediately multiply some...
Prabhupada: But calculator machine, another man is working, so where is brain, calculating? The machine is made by another man, and it is being worked by another man, so where is the brain in the calculator? That is... So you are misled immediately. Bluff.
Tamala Krsna: Word jugglery. Simply a word jugglery.
Prabhupada: That's all. Yes. What is the value of that? The machine is made by another brain, and it is being worked over by another brain. And who has made that brain who has made the machine? That is maya. Then ultimately you have to come to maya. And who is giving direction? Big brain, Krsna. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. He is making machine—caracaram. Yasyajnaya... Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva yasya bhuvanani vibharti durga [Bs. 5.44]. Maya is Durga, the superintending deity of this whole, whole universe. And she is Durga, therefore called. "Very difficult." Duh-ga. You can approach her very, with difficulty. Duh. Duh means duhkha.. You cannot understand even Durga, so what to speak of the Supreme Person who is giving directions to this...? Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva yasya... [Bs. 5.44], chayeva yasya bhuvanani vibharti durga. She has no independent intelligence. She is working like chaya. Just like here, chaya. This is moving; this is moving.
Tamala Krsna: Shadow.
Prabhupada: Shadow. The shadow has no power to move. Chayeva. How nice example. Although Durga, the material nature, is so powerful, she is powerful in that way, as much the shadow is powerful. Chayeva yasya bhuvanani vibharti. Again explained, icchanurupam api yasya ca cestate. "Whatever she is doing, she is doing according to the desire of the Supreme..." Govindam adi-purusam. "O Govinda, You are the Supreme." Everything is there. Everything is explained in Brahma-samhita. Ultimately, govindam adi-purusam.
Tamala Krsna: Generally in the court cases that we've had against our society, they only question our method of preaching. But this is the first case where they are questioning what we are preaching. It's the first time I have seen it. Usually they're simply arguing over "You should distribute books like this or not like this." But now they are questioning what is in the books.
Prabhupada: Explain. If you can explain Bhagavad-gita nicely, then his father will understand. Where is that impediment? Ask them that "You are very proud of manufacturing very subtle machine, but can you prepare a machine like this? It is..." What will be the possible answer? If you challenge, then what will be the possible answer?
Tamala Krsna: They avoid the issue. When they don't have an answer, they simply change the subject.
Prabhupada: So why you allow him to? "Why you change?"
Adi-kesava: They say you're talking about religion...
Prabhupada: It is not religion. It is... I'm talking of machine. Religion, you do not know what is religion. That we shall talk later on. First of all come to machine. Religion. What you will know about religion? You are animal. So what you will know? Animal has no religion.
Tamala Krsna: They'll take that as an insult.
Prabhupada: Yes, insult. The animals should be kicked with shoes and stick. Argumentum baculum. There is no argument for animals. Kick and stick. Beat him. That is the way of dealing with animal. You cannot request an animal very... "My dear dog, please do not bark. Sit down." Simply kick and give him stick. That is good. They're animals. Gentle behavior with gentleman, not with the animal. "You are so big, big animal, you are simply to be kicked and whipped. Then you'll come to your senses." Religion. Religion is farce. First of all explain why you cannot do this machine. You are very proud of machine-making, artificial. "Why artificial intelligence? Why not real intelligence?" Intelligence also material. Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhih [Bg. 7.4]. The buddhi. It is material, subtle form of material energy.
Tamala Krsna: "It is coming," they'll say. "In the future."
Prabhupada: Again "coming." "In future." You are misled by these rascal words. Even if you do in future, what credit is there? It is already there. Why I shall wait for the future? It is already there. If some... We are sannyasis, begging, so if you go to somebody—he says, "Yes, I'll pay you one hundred rupees in future. I am trying to get the money"—shall you wait for that?
Tamala Krsna: Means no payment.
Prabhupada: Yes. I'll go to a man who has got already. Why shall I wait for you? Even if you are so sure that in future you'll be able to manufacture a machine, a human body, so already you are trying to check the population. It is being produced so profusely that what will be credit for you even if you manufacture, (laughter) rascals? Even if you manufacture in future, then what is the credit for you? Here millions of machines coming automatically. You are trying to check it. What is the credit? Bhavananda, you...?
Satsvarupa: They say they're trying to do a better one than this.
Prabhupada: Oh, you cannot do. (Bengali)
Bhavananda: (Bengali)
Prabhupada: You know hele (Bengali). There is a snake in the water.
Jayapataka: The hele snake.
Prabhupada: Hellish? Hele, hele, hele (Bengali), hele snake.
Jayapataka: Hele snake. It doesn't have any poison.
Prabhupada: Yes. So one snake charmer, he cannot capture that hele snake, and he is expecting to capture cobra. (Bengali) I challenge them that "First of all make one egg, a small egg. (laughter) Make some chemicals and give it to the incubator and let the chicken come." The rascals, they cannot do that.
Adi-kesava: So they were saying, "I will not make an egg now. In twenty years I will make you a chicken." They say, "I can't make an egg now, but in twenty years I'll make you a chicken."
Prabhupada: Without egg where is chicken? Where is that example? Why you are talking again? Where (laughter) is that chicken made? Rascal. Without egg where is the chicken? So challenge them like that. Prove them that they have no brain. So there is immediately, automatically... "You have no brain. Where is the question of brainwash?"
Tamala Krsna: That's a good one. This will be... This will astound them. It will put them back twenty foot. They won't know what to reply. They're coming in one way, and you're giving them a whole other...
Brahmananda: It's not a defense. It's a offense. You're not defending; you're making an attack. You're not apologizing that "We're not brainwashing." We're saying, "You don't have a brain to begin with."
Prabhupada: Yes. Where is wash? (Bengali) In Bengali there is one word. In Bengal it is (indistinct), to keep the head on the northern side.
Tamala Krsna: Keep the...
Prabhupada: Head lying. No. "Keeping the head northern side." (Bengali) So if one man was asked that "Don't keep your head on the northern side," he says, "I have no head. Where is the question of uttara dike?" (Bengali) So first of all prove that you have got brain; then the question of brainwash... You have no brain. You are all dull stone. Where is the question of brainwashing? Prove them. This is very nice. Humorous, at the same time very nice. People will observe. Prove that they have no brain.
Jayapataka: It will make headline.
Prabhupada: Hmh? Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Of course, the thing is, though, when we say things like this, they take it that it is so absurd that they don't even take it seriously. When you make a statement that "You have no brains," when you say that to a so-called learned man...
Prabhupada: No, where is brain? "Show. You are manufacturing so many machines." Challenge this, "Where is this machine?"
Tamala Krsna: Their conception of what intelligence is is completely different than our conception.
Prabhupada: And that means they have no brain.
Tamala Krsna: They would argue...
Prabhupada: Just like a child's conception is different from the father. That means he has not developed the brain. That is only answer.
Tamala Krsna: They don't accept that God consciousness is...
Prabhupada: So then... They may not accept, but the fact is there. You can challenge this, that body's machine. Apart from what is the energy that is moving the machine, but it is machine, we accept. So you prepare a machine like that. Where is that machine?
Tamala Krsna: They'll say that "You also cannot."
Prabhupada: I do not say that we are very good brain. We are servant of God. We have nothing to show, any brain. Our brain will be shown by our master. Our position is God. So we are not very much anxious to show our... But you are godless rascals. You want to show your brain. Show me machine. We have all accepted that supreme brain is Krsna and we are servant. That is our position. We don't say that "Independent. There is no God." We don't. You say that. We are working under superior brain. So the case has to be proved by you, not by us. What is called, onus? What is that, onus?
Brahmananda: Burden of proof.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is your duty, not us. You have to prove it. [break] And now don't go to the court with any other dress. Preach like this. Preach there with this dress. Have they any objection with this dress?
Hari-sauri: In this dress.
Adi-kesava: I agree. I think it is very good that they see us dressed like this in court.
Prabhupada: Yes, we should...
Adi-kesava: They will understand what we are.
Prabhupada: We shall...
Hari-sauri: We have to represent our religion properly.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: A priest will not put on a suit.
Adi-kesava: In fact one time... Even the last time I went...
Prabhupada: No, whatever is done, done. Now you make a difference. In any case, we shall go in this dress.
Hari-sauri: Tell Ramesvara that, too.
Prabhupada: They requested me to change the dress. I have... The Ramakrishna Mission, that "Unless you dress yourself..." "I have no money. You give me three dress for public.(?) Then I shall do it. I know how to dress. In my business life I was dressing like that, but now I have no money. You give me money." (laughter) I told them that. (laughs) "I know how to dress like a gentleman. Every day it must be changed, must be nicely ironed. But I have no money. You need not required to teach me. I know how to dress like an European gentleman. And I have no money." [break] ...coat, same pant, same hat—I do not like that. If I dress like a European, I must change daily. Do they not? A respectable European?
Tamala Krsna: Oh, every day.
Prabhupada: Yes, morning and evening.
Tamala Krsna: Just like a Deity.
Prabhupada: Yes. "So I know that, but I have no money." I replied to that Mr. Mukerjee. He lives near that University, Columbus? Columbia? He's a teacher there. So he came to see me in the 100th Street West, and he requested me, "Swamiji, if you move in this dress, nobody will respect you." "It doesn't matter."
Brahmananda: Who was this?
Prabhupada: One Mr. Mukerjee. What is that?
Jayapataka: (Bengali)
Prabhupada: So call him. That's all. [break] First of all say, "You have no brain."
Hari-sauri: If we present these points in the right way, then we'll have to make them consider these points as being valid. They can... 'Cause there's so many things in our literature that they can just not believe and claim as just plain ridiculous, but by your presentation it becomes acceptable.
Prabhupada: You talk with them again. They're intelligent. You can talk, yes. It is recorded again, again.
Hari-sauri: Yes. I'm making spares of all these tapes, so they can take them back with them and listen to them.
Prabhupada: All tell, "You have no brain. So where is the question of brainwash?" That you have to prove, that "You have no brain. You are all dull-headed, animals." This is our challenge. "And animals cannot... Their brain cannot be washed, but washed, I have brain, yes... Because a human being, we have tried. At the present you have no brain. All useless."
Hari-sauri: But, you say, by presenting this to the court, then they'll have to prove or they'll have to try and disprove or establish that they have a brain, and then the whole thing come out, what is actual intelligence and what is simply cat-and-dog intelligence.
Pradyumna: Then we say also ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. We say "washing."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is brainwashing, yes. It is required. But at the present moment you have no brain. You have got stool in your head. So it has to be washed. What is the wrong there? If you give, "machine." You say "machine," we say it, "machine," this body. This body is a machine. You also accept; I also accept. But you, can you produce a machine like that? If the person who has made the machine, He has got brain, you have no brain. And that is Krsna. Krsna says, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. This is cara, moving machine, and there is standing machine. Just like tree, that is also a machine.
Pradyumna: Like?
Prabhupada: Tree. It is standing machine. It is collecting water from the root of the tree throughout the tree. Can you make machine, coconut tree, collecting water and supplying the top fruit? Where is that machine? It is a machine. So what brain you have got?
Hari-sauri: Chicken brain.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Hari-sauri: Chicken brain.
Prabhupada: You cannot do that also.
Hari-sauri: (laughs) No. Their brain is like that.
Prabhupada: They have no brain.
Hari-sauri: You said in Washington that they will have to give their doctorates and degrees to the chickens...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...because the chickens are better than them.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: They can produce life in a few days.
Pradyumna: And if they say that "Yes, we have a brain. We use it... We make very nice civilization..."
Prabhupada: What is that civilization?
Pradyumna: Then we say they're animal.
Prabhupada: Animal civilization—eating, sleeping...
Pradyumna: Eating, sleeping, mating.
Prabhupada: That's all. This civilization is there in the cats and dogs. Civilization is that when there is something more than the cats and dogs. What you have got? That is brain. How to eat, how to sleep, how to enjoy sex life—the dog has got such brain. Even that... You cannot produce a machine like the dog also. Can you make a machine like the dog? Then where is your brain?
Hari-sauri: They can't even produce the simplest single-celled living entity...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...what to speak of anything else.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: Even an amoeba they can't produce.
Prabhupada: I have said in the Bhagavata verse in the BTG that "You can make 747, but you cannot make a mosquito."
Hari-sauri: And they can't supply the pilot either.
Prabhupada: Yes. With pilot the body is there. And he knows the art, how to bite you instantly. He immediately injects his, that little fiber within the hole of the hair. Immediately
Pradyumna: Oh, that's how they do it. When there's a hair hole? They put it there.
Prabhupada: Immediately. And the warning: "I have come." (makes sound like flying mosquito) "Hnn nn nn." Where is that brain? The mosquito has so nice brain that he gives you warning that "I have come to bite you. If you like, you can save yourself." And he goes and immediately bites, and immediately the business is finished. A mosquito has such a nice brain. Who has made this brain?
Pradyumna: I was just remembering that verse, sattvam suddhyed yasmad brahma-saukhyam tv anantam [SB 5.5.1]. They will fight to the... They will say, "Yes, you are washing the brain." Sattvam suddhyet.
Prabhupada: Washing is required because you have no brain. Instead of brain, you have got some stool. So therefore it requires washing. Washing is required because you have no brain.
Pradyumna: It is covered by ignorance.
Prabhupada: It is covered by the stool, so it requires washing.
Prabhupada: Yes. (end)

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