about BTG the Moon
February 18, 1977, Mayapura
Tamala Krsna: There was an underlying question of whether the magazine... Brahmananda Maharaja had mentioned that your original idea was that this magazine was meant for the devotees to write into the magazine and the spiritual master would read the articles and thus see how the devotees were making advancement, and the magazine was for the devotees to read each other's articles. Generally how the one..., the kind of the present-day idea behind the magazine is that it is for the common man outside. It is not so much for the devotee as much as for the karmis. And therefore...
Prabhupada: No, what is the purpose? To distribute to the karmis?
Tamala Krsna: Yes. The purpose is to somehow connect the karmis and give them a favorable opinion of our society, a general idea and favorable opinion of our movement. But the criticism on the part of some of the senior devotees now is that in doing this they have compromised our philosophy and our position.
Prabhupada: So who has done this? You are asking me?
Hari-sauri: Another example's like that they put a recipe for halava in the magazine, two-page spread in color.
Prabhupada: So the Ramesvara should not be in charge. The Satsvarupa should be in charge.
Satsvarupa: I'm very eager to take it over again.
Prabhupada: Immediately do.
Tamala Krsna: That was going to be our proposal. We went through the magazine, Satsvarupa Maharaja, Brahmananda Maharaja and myself, on the underlying points, and as Hari-sauri was pointing out, just like in the old days sometimes they would give a recipe and it would end with the showing of how to offer obeisances for offering the prasada. But here that is completely neglected, that part. It simply says, "At the end of cooking, chant Hare Krsna and it will make the food taste better." There's no understanding that the food is then supposed to be offered to Krsna for Krsna's pleasure. That whole idea is deleted. Everything is very much simplified with the idea of making it sell more.
Prabhupada: No, this should be properly done immediately. Who is the editor?
Prabhupada: Who is Sri Govinda?
Tripurari: He was the temple president in Chicago for several years. Now he is in Los Angeles with his family, and he's living there, the chief editor.
Prabhupada: He has no experience of this...
Brahmananda: We have always understood that the editor should be a senior man...
Brahmananda: ...who is spiritually strong. Sri Govinda is not spiritually strong, and he is not a senior man.
Prabhupada: So best thing will be Satsvarupa now shall edit.
Tamala Krsna: There's some serious discrepancies. One thing is that after your name at the beginning they have written founder-director instead of founder-acarya.
Prabhupada: They are making mine?(?)
Satsvarupa: Because the American public would not be able to accept that. Then later in the issue...
Tamala Krsna: It says, "His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, founder and director of the Krsna consciousness movement."
Prabhupada: Of course, acarya means director. That is another... But why they search out?(?)
Satsvarupa: One difficulty is later in the issue they referred to Kirtanananda Maharaja as "founder and director." So it makes him... "Of New Vrindaban." So you're director and he's director, so you're equal. They're described as equals. But if you were acarya, he could not be also called acarya of New Vrindaban.
Prabhupada: No, it should be continued as "acarya"
Tamala Krsna: In the advertisement for the Perfection of Yoga it says that one of the results will be, he says here, "At night you will fall asleep immediately." This is the benefit of reading Perfection of Yoga.
Prabhupada: (laughing) But he admitted. (laughter)
Tamala Krsna: The general idea is just like this page, "Chant and Be Happy." But there is practically no devotees shown. The whole idea is that if you show devotees, no one will be able to identify with the devotee. So they're showing persons in material life, and each one of them is giving his opinion of why he chants. "Chanting makes me calmer," "Chanting makes me more perceptive," "Chanting makes me more open-minded." So these are all... [break] ...the ultimate goal of chanting is to instill love of God, but that thing is never mentioned. [break]
Brahmananda: Then he would approve. That was the test.
Tamala Krsna: This article has changed very much from the original Back to Godhead article. This article here is issue number, I think, 14, many years ago, about the anchor in the water. It was very Krsna conscious. Now it has been made...
Hari-sauri: No one's going to derive any Krsna conscious meaning from that article. It's two whole pages, with picture and a little bit of writing.
Bhavananda: In the whole magazine, Srila Prabhupada, we feel that there's very little Krsna consciousness.
Tamala Krsna: No Lord Caitanya's picture. Lord Caitanya and Krsna's picture never appear in the whole magazine. They've taken it out.
Brahmananda: Srila Prabhupada, this is your magazine.
Adi-kesava: And even the pictures of the devotees, they're not recognizable as devotees.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Just like you asked that there be a picture of the temple... [break] ...you can't even recognize it... [break]
Prabhupada: Curb down this.
Tamala Krsna: It's meant to curb down many movements, but gradually it will be simply against this movement because these other movements are finishing quickly.
Hari-sauri: Their first target was that Moonie, Moons. Their first target was that Korean Unification Church, the Moonies. Now we're the big target.
Prabhupada: Moon is finished? No.
Prabhupada: What about Transcendental Meditation?
Tamala Krsna: They are very clever. But even now they're coming under great criticism. They're starting to become criticized also. But they are much... He has so much watered down the whole thing that it doesn't disturb hardly anybody. It's no... It's like ten minutes a day. "Keep your job. Keep your position. Do everything you're doing. Just ten minutes a day go to sleep. Say some mantra and sleep." So no one is very much upset by it. It doesn't demand anything, doesn't demand very much at all, like taking a pill.
Prabhupada: He's very clever.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. A good businessman. They outright... This they outrightly say. "This is not religion. No question of religion, nothing about God." They advertise like that. "It is not religion."
Prabhupada: That is true.
Prabhupada: He has not any new writings?(?)
Tamala Krsna: He had one, but I heard that they had some difficulty in preparing it. (indistinct) [break]
Prabhupada: ...the leaders agree, organize it. Then others take it. We can begin there this varnasrama program.
Prabhupada: I shall expect to go. It requires...
Prabhupada: No, on our part.
Hari-sauri: That's not... The traveling there is not the strain. It's doing the programs and seeing so many people. That's a big strain.
Prabhupada: That is not... Strain is traveling.
Hari-sauri: But that traveling means when you're there you have to travel to this program, travel to see that man, travel...
Prabhupada: I like to sit down in one place. I am not going to...
Hari-sauri: But still, for the programs they always... Every time we go somewhere they want you to come to this temple and then they want you to do this program here and there.
Prabhupada: No, that I...
Prabhupada: Therefore I want to make it...
Tamala Krsna: Not coming. We have to leave at least one of the sannyasis there to watch everything. Especially now if Sudama Maharaja comes with the theater, then... I just told... I spoke to Sudama on the phone just now. So I told him that "The condition on which you can come is that Dhrstadyumna has to agree to stay in New York for the two weeks, because it's too much responsibility to be left alone without anybody in charge."
Prabhupada: Our temple is always crowded.
Tamala Krsna: In New York? Oh, all the time. Especially on weekends, it's very crowded. Because of the restaurant and all the different programs that are going on there, there's always people coming in. We have many different activities.
Prabhupada: The neighborhood men, they don't like it?
Tamala Krsna: Some of them mind it. There's no objection from the neighbors. It's such a big building, the biggest building on the whole block.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. In New York you don't get any kind of... It's called a "melting pot." No one minds. Hare Krsna is accepted there. First place that you...
Prabhupada: I remember. We have started from New York.
Tamala Krsna: Dhrstadyumna Maharaja is taking up also working with the Indian communities around the country. He's finding great receptivity. In many of the cities the Indian community is willing to purchase buildings. Dhrstadyumna is going to cities where we don't have temples yet. But there's still big cities, and the Indian communities there are very eager.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, very eager, yes. [break] ...Cincinnati, immediately this man he met, he immediately he got five hundred of them enrolled as members, life members.
Tamala Krsna: This one gentleman in Cincinnati. And there are many prominent Indians around the country.
Prabhupada: Well-to-do also. They are well-to-do.
Tamala Krsna: Many of them, yes. They're all professionals. So he's finding that there's good receptivity amongst the Indians and students he's working with. And he's working, developing this farm. He's making his headquarters the farm in Pennsylvania, and then he goes out and goes to all these centers that he's established, and then every week he comes for a few days to the farm and works with Paramananda. They formed a committee of management to do everything jointly. Paramananda's the president, and others are there, and Dhrstadyumna's a sannyasi, so he goes there and gives lectures. It's New Varsana, so they have an idea to develop it just like Varsana. There's a mountain there, so they want to build a temple on the mountain.
Prabhupada: Where is New Varsana?
Prabhupada: Oh. That's nice.
Prabhupada: Indians not there?
Tamala Krsna: Yes, they're starting, because the building that we're putting up is a guesthouse. It is very nice facility for Indians to stay there. And during the summer, especially, what they're thinking to do is for two weeks they'll have a program for the Indians to send their children there for school and activities. And the two weeks will end on Janmastami. So all the parents of the Indian children can come and spend the weekend at the farm at this guesthouse. Gradually it can develop. Very big population of Indians in New Jersey and Pennsylvania and New York, and they're all within easy reach of this farm, three hours, two hours by car.
Prabhupada: They have no temple, the Indians?
Tamala Krsna: Actually they are looking to our society to provide them some spiritual place of worship. They're actually looking to us as priests.
Tamala Krsna: Dhrstadyumna Maharaja has organized the life membership program to send the Indian members milk sweets in the mail every week from the farm. Burfi, sandesa.
Prabhupada: They also like. And in America, the Indians are there, they are all educated. They're not low-class men.
Prabhupada: This... There are some statements. Just like molten iron, a man can break for illicit sex. What is their objection?
Prabhupada: Story means it is story for you. Do you know the details of the whole universe, where, what is what? Can you do? You go and say there is no moonshine, but this rascal conclusion will be taken. Why there should be shine? From the sand such brilliant moonshine is coming? We have to believe that? So many books have said (indistinct) brilliant. Sun is brilliant. This... So you rascal, you can believe in that, but we'll not believe. You can say. What do you know about moon? It is all rascaldom. It may be good for rascals like you, not for intelligent man like me.
Tamala Krsna: That statement is always published immediately in newspapers. They love to publish that statement, that we say they've not gone to the moon. Immediately...
Prabhupada: Question is how it is.
Prabhupada: Such a brilliant thing, soothing, and we'll take as...? We'll never take. Tell them. We see such a nice place. If you have gone there, why you have come back?
Tamala Krsna: They say there's nothing there but craters and barren land, like a desert, Mohave Desert.
Prabhupada: Desert... Wherefrom the desert comes?
Prabhupada: We see in the desert there is life.
Prabhupada: Why not? If you have got desert, if you have got sand, why not?
Hari-sauri: No, they say it's just old dried-up desert because there's no atmosphere for vegetation to grow in. It just gets dried up by the sun's rays.
Prabhupada: How it became dried up? Formerly it was.
Prabhupada: Eh? It is gas. Then you have not gone.
Prabhupada: What nonsense. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Everything came; only life did not. (laughter)
Prabhupada: This, they are sure.(?) (laughter)
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Another thing they don't like is this word "demon." Oh, they don't like that at all. They say you call everyone demons.
Prabhupada: Yes, you are demons. because you are talking demon, thinking demon.
Satsvarupa: Even that Professor O'Connell, he said in his so-called favorable report, "I think you should (indistinct), but don't use that word demon."
Prabhupada: No. We say democracy is "demoncracy."
"Arrogance, pride, anger, conceit, harshness and ignorance—these qualities belong to those of the demoniac nature..."
Prabhupada: They are these...
Prabhupada: Do it carefully, cautiously. They are feeling the weight.
Prabhupada: No, you also help. He's also very young.
Prabhupada: He is nice.
Tamala Krsna: He comes from a good family. His father, grandfather's side, is Barclay from Barclay's bank. He's the grandson, grandnephew of Barclay. Good family. Parents are very well known.
Prabhupada: Rich family.
Prabhupada: He's also good gentleman.
Prabhupada: Hm. He came to see me.
Tamala Krsna: Adi-kesava's mother is very big in the field of education. Public speaker and intelligent. His father owns a number of industries.
Prabhupada: You can bring case against them. Just like fight in same position, that brainwashing. Not brainwashing. Whatever they have said.
Prabhupada: Yes. Back to back.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. Oh, yes. We're planning to do that. After this case is finally won, then we'll turn around and sue them for damages.
Tamala Krsna: "You have blasphemed our society and our president all over the papers." Oh, our movement has suffered. We can claim damages for sure. A perfect example, we had a man working for us in charge of our boiler room. So as soon as this case came out, he quit the job. He had been working in the building for thirty-four years. He quit the job because he did not want to be associated with our society due to the bad publicity. So in this way so many people, we can argue, have stopped coming to our temple. So many things we have suffered. Lawsuit.
Prabhupada: Same position.
Tamala Krsna: This is the traditional system. After you win the case, then you turn around and sue them. We may not get, because we're suing the city. Anyway, then we can get more opportunity for furthering our propaganda if we file another suit. Tomorrow will you go on a walk, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: I can go.
Prabhupada: I can go down very well.
Prabhupada: On the pond side
Prabhupada: No. They say they have gone from the paper. We say from the paper they have not gone. Then where is the difference? We have got our paper; they have got their paper. They say they have gone. Nobody has gone with them. I have not gone. They have not gone. They say from the paper.
Prabhupada: Third-class, third-class newspaper, and we have got the knowledge.
Prabhupada: So that is foolish action of that...? Some witness, drunkard witness for the liquor men. This is their own philosophy. Anyway, they'll produce some, what is called? Aeronauts. But still I have not gone. You are still hearing from a third person.
Prabhupada: Hearsay. You cannot say that he has gone, because you have not seen. The argument is to see. You have not seen.
Prabhupada: No, no, that we hearsay, and you also hearsay. Then were is the difference? I hearsay from Bhagavata, you hearsay from astronaut. The position is, your position and my..., the same. If you don't believe me, why shall I believe you? You are not in better position. It has been proved that many cheater scientists and many doctors, cheaters. Why shall I believe you?
Hari-sauri: But there are thousands of men working on the space program. There are thousands of men working on the space program.
Prabhupada: So thousands of men reading our Bhagavata. No, many.
Prabhupada: This is no argument.
Hari-sauri: But they'll argue that "We're building the rocket ships, and we're sending... We watch them go off..."
Prabhupada: What you have done? You could not go and live there. You say the atmosphere is different. We deny this. Atmosphere cannot be different. It is within this material world. We can see. Why atmosphere should be different? If the atmosphere is different, how you can see a solid, very bright thing? I can see. Why there is a bright thing? Why it should be different?
Prabhupada: That is your statement. I don't believe it. I don't accept your statement. I use my common sense. Why the atmosphere? I can see the bright thing, light. If I see this light, I can see that light. Why they should differ?
Tamala Krsna: They'll say that just like when you go up on top of the mountain, the oxygen is rarified, the atmosphere is more rarified.
Prabhupada: That may be. But that does not mean on the top of the hill there is no life.
Prabhupada: The atmosphere may be different, but that does not mean there is no life. Just the water—the atmosphere different from me, for me. That does not mean there is no life. You cannot live within the water for a minute, but the aquatics are living and enjoying, the aquatics, big, big life.
Prabhupada: What is your, your practical ex...? You are rascal. You have no practical experience. If there is life in the water, if there is life in the air, if there is life within the earth, why not in the fire? It is also one of the elements. Why you discard only fire? There are five elements: earth, water, air, fire, ether. So if there is life in the earth, in the water, in the air, in the ether, what fire has done there should be no life?
Prabhupada: Your seeing is imperfect.
Prabhupada: No. You cannot see. That is your imperfect... You should conclude from the general experience, that "Here there is life; there must be... We cannot." But what do you see? Just like they have taken photograph. What is that photograph? Suppose if you take a photograph of the ocean, can you see any life? The life is within. What is the use of your photograph? Your everything is imperfect. You cannot say anything final. And you are imperfect, your senses are imperfect; whatever you have got, that is imperfect. If Krsna says, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham, then Krsna is there.
Prabhupada: Krsna is there. You are scientist. You are very expert, more than Krsna. Therefore you believe like that.
Prabhupada: You cannot see, rascal, because you are rascal. Therefore you cannot see. You have to hear. That is also... Because you are rascal, you cannot see. You simply... Just like you have not seen your father. Rascal, who can see? Who is that rascal who can see his father? You have to hear from the mother. You rascal, you cannot see your father. Why you are claiming that "I want to see my real father." That is not possible. You have to simply hear from the mother. That is only source. Similarly, you are rascal, everything is, you, imperfect, so you have to hear from the authority. That is only source.
Prabhupada: Yes. There is no argument.
Hari-sauri: But you used the argument on me that practically we see there's life everywhere—in the water, in the air...
Prabhupada: So why not in the fire?
Prabhupada: Again the same argument. I say you are rascal. You cannot see. That is not possible.
Prabhupada: You cannot see in the water. You cannot see in the air.
Prabhupada: So go down in the fire. You'll see. Why you cannot go to the fire?
Prabhupada: But you go and it will... Go in the fire. This is the defect, that he is imperfect in every way and he claims to be God. That is the defect. The same way. I want to see who is my actual father. How you can see? You have to accept the mother. That's all. Veda. Veda is mother. Accept mother and Vedic information. Otherwise there is no possibility. Krsna says. Then you don't believe Krsna. Why you have taken to this? So many things are there. You should take it. Just like the soul. Krsna says, dehino 'smin: "There is." You take it. You cannot say Krsna, "Show me." Then finished, you knowledge. Krsna has given the reason. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam... [Bg. 2.13]. You can see in that way, that because the soul is there the body is changing. As soon as soul is not there, stop. It is no more... That you have to... Nothing more. Dhiras tatra na muhyati. If you are dhira, then there is no difficulty. But you are the rascal. This is the defect. Tatha dehantara-praptih. Yes, we can practically experience also; when there is driver the motorcar is moving. No driver—no movement. Where is the difficulty? But because you are rascal you do not know how to take things practically. What is the difference between a motorcar and this machine? It is also machine. Bhagavad-gita says it is a machine. So machine may without a conductor, without the... A machine may be very useful, computer, but if there is no worker, what is the use of this machine? Simply alone machine can work? It may be very wonderful machine.
Prabhupada: So the computer worker or this dictaphone, everything is living being.
Prabhupada: Yes, there must be touch of a living being. Therefore the whole cosmic manifestation—there is touch of Krsna. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate [Bg. 9.10]. Dead matter cannot work. We are beginning our knowledge from this. First of all try to understand what is that living force. Apareyam. This dead matter, kincid, itas tu viddhi me prakrtim param. There is another nature. What is that? Jiva-bhutam, living... That is superior.
Prabhupada: You can practically experience. A machine may be very complicated, but without the man who will push the button there is no value. It has no value, a lump only.
Prabhupada: Here is a lump of matter, some metal. It has been done by a living being; it is worked by living being; then it is working. And what is the value? Not even two paisa.
Hari-sauri: When they do their experiments in the laboratories they have to mix the chemicals themselves.
Prabhupada: Everything is done by a living being. There must be touch by the living. Yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. He is... Understand this. He is manipulating this inferior material. It has not come automatically. There's brain. Brain means intelligence, human being. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate ja... Find out this verse.
"Besides this inferior nature, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is a superior energy of Mine, which are all living entities who are struggling with material nature and are sustaining the universe."
Prabhupada: That's it. Who can deny it? Therefore they have no brain to understand.
Tamala Krsna: The whole world is in ignorance. Except for this knowledge which you are giving, everything is in darkness.
Prabhupada: Darkness, that's all. All rascals, boka.
Prabhupada: That is the fact.
Tamala Krsna: It may be that a few others know about it in India, but they never went outside to give it to anybody. Even in India they don't give it to anybody.
Prabhupada: They do not know.
Prabhupada: Therefore that professor has said, "God has sent Swami A.C. Bhaktivedanta." I never say "Yes, yes." Never.
Prabhupada: You know that?
Prabhupada: And that. (gestures)
Prabhupada: If you drown me in the water, still I'll say.
Tamala Krsna: Everyone else has a point of selling out, but you have never done that. (pause) This Satsvarupa is an expert typist.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Satsvarupa and Hayagriva. (end)
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