February 18, 1977, Mayapura
Tamala Krsna: ...that the government is actually... It is not the government, but there are various individuals within the government. In other words, it is not the entire government. Just like in this country it is much more of a dictatorial type government. In America what is happening is that because these deprogrammers... What they are doing is called lobbying. They go to Congress, they go to the House of Representatives. They have all of their members write letters to their local state senators, to the local House of Representatives...
Prabhupada: Hm. They influence.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. And then they get these local men to come together in groups and try to pass laws. So it's not simply that the... But there is more and more now a feeling amongst the government members towards..., favorable to the deprogrammers and against the cults on account of the cheating nature of the other cults. So there's definitely...
Prabhupada: They should be.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. It's definitely... The sentiment is definitely against us and for the deprogrammers amongst government leaders. It's not in our favor. There's no doubt about it. The courts are definitely against us, and the government is also. It's serious.
Prabhupada: So what can we do?
Prabhupada: That is...
Prabhupada: (laughs) That's it. And the Hyderabad report, that English education, they are inclined. There are so many here. That's not very good idea. As soon as they get English education...
Tamala Krsna: They'll leave. So we should not encourage that at all. I think it's different than here.
Prabhupada: No, their attention should be in chanting. And produce their own food, agriculture. And as soon as they get English education, then... Not "as soon as," but not all of them are fit for being educated. It is not possible. They are sudra class of men. What he will be educated? Sudra, vaisya, they should learn how to plow, how to produce food. They are thinking otherwise, that "Plowing is great labor. If we educate our boys in English, they can go to the city. Immediately they get some..."
Prabhupada: Yes. Actually it is not the position, but they're thinking like that. Everyone wants to work less and get more money. That is Marshall's theory of economic impetus. From Germany also there is a bad report.
Tamala Krsna: Argentina. And now Caracas, they're investigating the accounts, auditing the accounts.
Prabhupada: Why they are against the book?
Tamala Krsna: Because... They're not against the books. They're against the money, the huge money that they see the books are getting. They're not even against the books. They're against the process of collecting money. Books, they don't care one way or the other, but the fact that we're collecting so much money, that is surprising them.
Tamala Krsna: See at first... At first they don't take us very seriously. They think, "Well, a few beggars." But then they start to see one skyscraper...
Prabhupada: All beggars. (laughs)
Tamala Krsna: Yes, poor beggars, right. And then a skyscraper full of beggars, and then they realize, "How they purchased a skyscraper? These people are collecting a lot of money."
Prabhupada: We want that they should have necessaries without any difficulty and chant Hare Krsna. That they do not like. They want people to be industrialists, working very hard in the factory.
Hari-sauri: They're envious because they're struggling for their own existence, and they don't like to see us not struggle.
Prabhupada: Yes. Envious. But if we develop this community project, farm, they cannot do anything.
Prabhupada: Yes. "Why shall I work? I am working for my own..., for the village."
Tamala Krsna: They like that. They would also... Probably they would respect if we did some businesses, some of our members.
Prabhupada: We can do. Manager is there.
Prabhupada: When we have got excess produce, either milk or grain or anything, we can sell that.
Tamala Krsna: That we won't have, though. The kind of businesses we do are not krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg. 18.44]. It's more or less businesses of incense business, jewelry business. We don't have extra milk products or grains, not very much.
Prabhupada: So what is the harm if we do jewelry business?
Prabhupada: That is in his hand. Why he should be contaminated?
Tamala Krsna: Shouldn't, but somehow our... You once said to me that "You Americans are already business-minded, so..."
Prabhupada: Well, business-minded is not bad, but contamination is bad.
Tamala Krsna: See, the trouble is that when you do book distribution, it's easier to chant Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is for that purpose.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the defect. Otherwise, if I am attracted, Hare Krsna, for my livelihood I can do anything.
Tamala Krsna: Anything, yes. I've seen in India, many of our members, they are able to do their puja in the morning with an undisturbed mind and then do business.
Prabhupada: Yes. All Marwaris do that.
Prabhupada: My father was doing business, and he was a great devotee.
Prabhupada: Yes, up to one o'clock, two o'clock, he was engaged only with his puja, my father. He was going late, at twelve o'clock, to bed. Then he was to... He used to rise little late, at about seven, eight. Then taking bath, sometimes purchasing. Then from ten o'clock to one o'clock he was engaged in puja. Then he would take his lunch and go to business. And in the business shop he was taking little rest for one hour. And he'd come from business at ten o'clock at night, and then again puja. Regularly. Actually his business was puja. For livelihood he was...
Prabhupada: We were sleeping, father was doing arati—"ding ding ding ding, ding."
Prabhupada: Hm. Then he would take his night dinner and—not dinner. Some puris or parata. He was also fond of this puffed rice. In later age he was simply taking puffed rice and milk. So, anyway, puja was his main business.
Tamala Krsna: I found that our devotees who engage in business, they become a little spiritually weakened because we're not that advanced yet.
Prabhupada: No, cent percent engagement in, that is hamper. There is no doubt. But to do business as a householder is not bad.
Tamala Krsna: And practically, the position that our society is coming into now, I think it's actually... We should do it, because it will give our society a more balanced appearance. Otherwise they think everyone is beggar. But at least if they see that the brahmacaris' business is begging...
Prabhupada: Just like this Gaudiya Matha has become. They have no other way of income except begging in different way. Now they have taken to this business, parikrama. They earn something, lump sum, by calling men to parikrama, and they pay, say, two hundred rupees. Out of, a hundred rupees they save, minimum, and that is their whole year's livelihood.
Prabhupada: They are... They have come because they have no books.
Prabhupada: We can do everywhere the same.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, here also, in India. That is very good, honest.
Prabhupada: Now in Hyderabad we have got the farm. We can produce ghee and grains and make restaurant.
Prabhupada: You can have very nice center for restaurant. And in these cities they like nice restaurant.
Prabhupada: No, he's a sweet man. He has no restaurant.
Prabhupada: Hm. Vrndavana hotel in our quar...
Tamala Krsna: Yes. That's a good... That will be very popular, restaurants, especially prasadam restaurant. If they know it is... If it is pure... Because I know. I was eating in many restaurants in different cities before you told us that we shouldn't do that, and people go there because there's nowhere else to go. But it's never that clean, nor is it very good. But the office people, they have to eat somewhere.
Prabhupada: Formerly they used to be, because that was not restaurant. Restaurant in Indian style, they were selling parata. In Delhi there are many. So those who were interested with parata, they'll sit down and they will supply first-class parata and vegetables.
Tamala Krsna: Hm. That's not there anymore. In Bombay the only good restaurant... There is a Marwari restaurant where they have this dower(?) system. But there's only one, and it's in Kalpadevi, so hardly anyone will go there anyway. No office people go there. Only the Marwaris go there.
Prabhupada: No, Bombay there are so many restaurants.
Prabhupada: That restaurant, mostly for drinking tea and pakora.
Prabhupada: Oh. That is called... Oh.
Tamala Krsna: ...and a little rice and half a popper. But it's not very filling, and it's not very nice.
Prabhupada: Hm. Not first class.
Tamala Krsna: No. But yet it's packed with people. All the office people go there to eat there. And many office people get food brought to them in the office also, tiffins. You know...?
Prabhupada: Yes, tiffin carrier.
Prabhupada: That is from their home.
Prabhupada: There is a professional tiffin-carrier man. They collect from different houses, and they come by the train and give to the person in the office.
Prabhupada: Hm. Sometimes from hotel.
Prabhupada: Bombay officers, they, more than fifty percent, they eat in that tiffin-carrier.
Tamala Krsna: Yes. I think the restaurants make a big part of their business from that tiffin business in Bombay. Our... These other religions, just like Christianity, Judaism, they are accepted by the people and by the government because the people who are part of their religions are very normal in terms of doing business and society, etcetera. But we are very exceptional in every way. We don't...
Prabhupada: Therefore they say "brainwash."
Tamala Krsna: Yes. We don't fit into the normal pattern of things—no jobs, no proper dress. Everything's strange to them, because we don't want their culture. It is so abominable.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is brahminical culture. They don't want it.
Tamala Krsna: When the British came here, they saw people sitting on the floor, they said, "Oh, uncivilized."
Prabhupada: No, no. The British policy was that "If you keep the Hindus as Hindu, it will not be possible to rule over them." That was their policy. Therefore, from the very beginning childhood, everything Indian condemned.
Tamala Krsna: So this is the same mentality in America now. They are seeing us... Just like the gurukula, their opinion of gurukula—"Oh, children are getting up early? Forced to get up early? Forced to eat on the floor? Not being given proper diet?"
Prabhupada: But India, there is no such objection.
Tamala Krsna: None at all. Rather, they like our movement. So we should concentrate a lot of our energy here.
Tamala Krsna: I think we're the only... I think that what you are telling us is perfect in that now what we have to do is we have to vigorously explain our philosophy.
Tamala Krsna: That's the only way. We have to educate them. If we remain silent now, then we will become squashed. We have to speak positively. "Yes, this is why... We are like this because of the following reasons."
Prabhupada: Yes. And that is good for human being. That you have to convince. And actually that is fact. They are in ignorance. And they are advertising as scientist, philosopher-false propaganda. That is my view from the very beginning. They are nothing, all bokas. My Guru Maharaja used to say. In the beginning I could not understand, that "Why he says everyone is boka?" (laughs) Actually that is fact. They do not know the value of life.
Tamala Krsna: They are criticizing us because we say every one of them is demons. They don't like that.
Prabhupada: Prahlada Maharaja said his father, demon. Asura-varya. Tat sadhu manye asura-varya: "Best of the demons. My dear best of the demons." (laughs)
Tamala Krsna: I mean that's why... Just like in that Back to Godhead. The thing is that some of our devotees are becoming a little bit...
Prabhupada: That you should not be.
Tamala Krsna: No. That's why it is that the Back to Godhead magazine is being compromised a little. They are fearful. But actually that magazine is our platform for speaking strongly. In your Back to Godhead that you were publishing, you were very, very strong. [break]
Prabhupada: ...Mr. McPherson. He became my friend in Allahabad. He was coming and talking with me. He spoke of one restaurant in London that "It was so nice, and full of chili. I was crying; still, I could not leave it." (Prabhupada's chewing)
Prabhupada: Chili in mild quality, it is digestive.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Tamala Krsna: ...we have chili, and we have nimbu acar. That is also digestive a little. And then at the end we have popper, dry popper.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Tamala Krsna: Everything hot. The people who come to our restaurant would ordinarily not come, because they are very... They're just business people from the offices. They come in suits, and they eat in our restaurant, and they have a very good opinion of our movement.
Tamala Krsna: No. All Americans. The Indians don't come to our restaurant because the food is not properly spiced.
Tamala Krsna: It is not properly made. Actually, I don't like it. It's too bland. But for the American tastes it may be all right. But I think it's not proper. If we have a good cook who learns the cooking from here, then everyone will come.
Prabhupada: Hm. So why not?
Prabhupada: These two girls, they are very fine. [break]
Tamala Krsna: One of the big points of criticism is that we do not encourage our members to visit and spend time with their parents. In that way they say we are destroying the family.
Prabhupada: Actually that we want to do.
Tamala Krsna: Actually, we wouldn't mind our members seeing the parents, but the parents are raksasas. How can we see them? They are so abominable. They are not actually father and mother, as you described.
Tamala Krsna: A number of temples have been trying to hold parents' meetings. So in New York... In Los Angeles they held one. That was fairly successful for two reasons. One, when they did it, Mukunda was the chief man there. Mukunda's in Los Angeles now. So he didn't speak any philosophy. He just showed off all of the buildings. And another point was that most of the devotees in Los Angeles are married, and they have children, and they have proper apartments. So the meeting was fairly successful. Now, in New York, Rupanuga did the speaking and he spoke the philosophy, very strong and straightforward, for one hour. The parents became outraged. In fact, they interrupted him and would not let him finish his lecture. And secondly, in New York, most of the devotees are brahmacaris, so there's no families. We don't have..., no wife, no children. It means the parents have no grandchildren. They don't like that. So the parents are saying that "My boy came here on a Sunday feast, and the next day he called me from Chicago. He was on a bus, traveling on one of your buses, and I have not seen him since, the last year and a half." In this way they were very angry. Very angry. The only way we calmed them down is that we gave them prasadam in the restaurant and then took them into the theater for a performance. Then they were placated. Otherwise they were very angry. They want us to have the children go to their homes with them.
Hari-sauri: And then they'll influence them away. Actually we have a good reason for not letting them see their parents now, because when the parents call them on the phone and say, "I want to see you for five minutes," it's so they can kidnap them and deprogram them. That's how the kidnap them. The parents call and they say "Oh..." They make some arrangement to meet their child, and it's a trick. They have these gangsters waiting. I can see now my parents weren't so bad after all.
Prabhupada: Hm? Hm!
Hari-sauri: I was thinking I was very unfortunate to take a birth in a family of nondevotees, but they're not so bad compared to these others.
Prabhupada: Oh. What does she say?
Tamala Krsna: Oh, she's very nice. She wears sari. She's attending your lectures in the morning, taking prasadam. She's a very nice woman. He's such a nice son, and it's due... You can see... She's very nice. She could be a devotee easily, in my opinion. I never talked to her, but just from the way she carries herself, immediately putting on sari, quite happy to stay here for the time she's staying. He said he was going to bring..., bring her here one evening to meet you. Acyutananda's mother came here.
Prabhupada: Hm. He has returned?
Tamala Krsna: She was very surprised to see how huge he is, because the last time was 1967. He was very skinny.
Prabhupada: Oh. (laughing) Hm.
Prabhupada: Mother also.
Prabhupada: Real mother.
Tamala Krsna: Everyone is from divorced family. Jayapataka's mother, my parents, Brahmananda's parents. Brahmananda's mother called him. We think that they were trying to deprogram Brahmananda, because the second day that Brahmananda arrived in New York, suddenly his mother called. How could she have gotten news that he was coming to New York? We never told her. But as soon as he arrived in New York she called him. So we ascertained they are listening to all of our telephone conversations. And they know. They are writing. The deprogrammers are writing to all of the devotees' parents in the movement, and they are going and talking to the parents, saying, "Do you know what your son..." or "Do you know what your daughter is doing? Are you aware that your daughter has lost all of her free choice? That they're being brainwashed now by this cult? That they are giving her... They have spoiled her whole life?" In this way they try to pollute the minds of the parents who are innocent.
Hari-sauri: They're doing that everywhere, too. In Australia they're doing the same thing there, too.
Tamala Krsna: And they know all of the devotees' parents' names. Because the few devotees who do become deprogrammed, they give them all the names they know. And they have some informers within our temple also. All of our parents have told us that the deprogrammers contacted them.
Prabhupada: They're organized.
Prabhupada: (aside:) Yes, one spoon more. Take. [break] Very strong opposition. (chuckling) This combination in your country is costly.
Prabhupada: Puffed rice is costly!
Satsvarupa: But you can't buy it nice and fresh. They buy it in a bag, like you say, three hundred years old. (Prabhupada chuckles) Puffed rice is...
Prabhupada: You can learn how to make puffed rice. It's not difficult.
Prabhupada: The paddy has to be cooked, once boiled and fried, er, mean dried, again cooked, again dried. Then you take out the skin and mix with little salt and half baked, and then put into the hot sand. Oh, it will do... Little laboring.
Prabhupada: Oh. There is no paddy?
Prabhupada: They can grow. There is no difficulty.
Prabhupada: Oh. Rice cannot be grown.
Tamala Krsna: Maybe. Florida they can do. Southern United States, the weather is more like India, especially Florida. Florida is very much like India.
Prabhupada: There are many places like India.
Prabhupada: Hawaii, yes.
Tamala Krsna: This Mr. Punja, I was talking with him. He had a... His suitcase was stolen in Calcutta.
Prabhupada: Huh? Suitcase stolen?
Tamala Krsna: In Calcutta at the... There's a big hotel at the airport, and he left his bags there, three bags. And when he came back, one of them was gone with all of his wife's jewelries. Hindustan Hotel, I think it's called. Yeah, Hindustan, that big airport hotel. When you go down to Mayapura by that road there's a big hotel near the airport.
Prabhupada: I do not remember, but may be.
Tamala Krsna: So. Anyway, he's lodged a complaint with the Tea Board because he's a big tea importer, so he has connections. So he's lodged a complaint with the Tea Board. They're so dishonest. Even this is the five-star hotel. It's a big hotel in Calcutta, one of the two or three best, and they're so dishonest that as soon as a foreigner comes, they can figure out where the valuables are and they steal it. And most people will let them get away with it. He may not, because he's got so many connections. But it's so dishonest. Even they make an attempt to cultivate tourism and be professional but-spoiled.
Prabhupada: Hotels are always unreliable. They have got duplicate key.
Prabhupada: Hotel you should not go simply by locking. Somebody must be there. Otherwise they have got duplicate key.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. They have got duplicate key. They can take.
Tamala Krsna: He's wondering about his Deities. I told him that the Deities are supposed to be ready by Gaura Purnima. You gave that time limit. He wanted to know what the size was and how many. So I knew there was Kaliya-Krsna and four naga-patnis and Radha-Krsna and Lalita and Visakha and, I think I told him Gaura-Nitai, Guru-Gauranga, Gaura-Nitai, and your deity and your Guru Maharaja's deity. That makes thirteen.
Prabhupada: So they are preparing?
Prabhupada: Very good man.
Prabhupada: He was misunderstood by Upendra before. He's a good man.
Prabhupada: He becomes influenced by others very easily. Does not stick. Now there is no information of the wife and children.
Satsvarupa: They're in Hawaii?
Prabhupada: Last time saw in Vrndavana.
Prabhupada: Very good girl.
Prabhupada: Now he is without wife, children, such irresponsible. That is also one of the complaints. That complaint is regular in your country. Nobody takes care of wife and children.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Oh, one of the big complaints is about sex life, no sex life, except for children. Oh, they don't like that. That is very much complained on their part. "Why you are forbidding sex life?"
Prabhupada: I'm not forbidding. Krsna.
Prabhupada: "Your Bible, you take, but we have got our Krsna. Dharmaviruddha-kama. Then why you are taking contraceptive, rascal? You're killing your children. That is very good? Unrestricted sex, and when she is pregnant you kill. Are you human being or raksasa demon?" Challenge them like this.
Hari-sauri: I saw a Chicago newspaper. I think Jayapataka's mother must have brought it. And there was a page, and there was two big columns advertising abortion, so many different places you could go...
Prabhupada: Everyone knows.
Prabhupada: Abortion, child-killing. They are civilized?
Prabhupada: And eating fetus. So you are raksasas, less then raksasas. And they're criticizing us.
Tamala Krsna: It's really a question of the demons and the devotees, Prabhupada, this whole issue. It's polarizing both sides. It's nothing else but that. We are not doing anything wrong. Our devotees should not compromise.
Prabhupada: No, there is no question of.
Tamala Krsna: We're up against demons. We should not think that these people will become satisfied. They're demons.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Prabhupada: Then description is there in the Sixteenth Chapter, exactly of the Western civilization. Read it.
"Those who are demoniac do not know what is to be done and what is not to be done."
Prabhupada: This is their first qualification. They do not know what is the aim of life. Ask anyone what is the aim of life. They cannot say, like animal. Animal does not know. Eat, sleep, sex. They do not know. This is the demon's first quality. In which way life should be directed, they do not know. They are missing that.
Tamala Krsna: When I preach in the colleges, that's the first question I ask them. Not one person can answer. Never.
Prabhupada: Aimless life. Aimless life, what they will not do? Everything they'll do for sense gratification, because there is no aim.
Prabhupada: They do not know. The whole Western civilization they do not know what is the aim of life. Naturally the aim of life becomes like animals-eat, drink, have sex and defend. That's all. That is the Western civilization. They are busy for defense and sex arrangement and eating voraciously and sleeping.
Prabhupada: The religion is only this Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: They are already finished. You showed me that... Already finished.
Satsvarupa: Jayatirtha sent a cartoon from Punch Magazine. Big, big church, and the priest in the pulpit, and there's only lady there, and in the sermon he's saying, "Mrs. Bennett, you have to give more in the collection." She's the only one there. He said, "I think you will enjoy this, Prabhupada. It shows the position of churches in the West."
Prabhupada: Yes. I have seen London. So many hundreds of churches are closed.
Prabhupada: All churches are closed.
Tamala Krsna: Just see. They call a meeting of five hundred rabbis, all of the leading rabbis, and the Jewish leaders in the whole USA, just to deal with this question of "The cults taking our children."
Prabhupada: (laughs) Us? Au...?
Prabhupada: Then? This is a verse. They do not know what is the aim of life.
Hari-sauri: "Neither cleanliness nor proper behavior nor truth is found in them." All liars and cheats.
Prabhupada: This is demon.
Tamala Krsna: They're filthy. That's for sure. They are filthy. They have no idea of... In New York you can see that. They smell nasty. They keep on their shoes. You have to tell them to take... They never wash after eating. Even animals wash. At least they try to keep clean.
"They say that this world is unreal and that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire and has no cause other than lust."
Prabhupada: Accident. "Some man woman meets. Accidentally they become sexually inclined, and there is a child." Bas. So much. Why God? It is accidental, that's all. How vividly described.
Satsvarupa: Thousands of years ago it was compiled, but it's...
Prabhupada: Everyone. And there were so many Gita scholars.
Prabhupada: And leaders like Gandhi. They would never say all these things. Nonviolence. He has manufactured his own idea, taking, cheating people with Gita. This is first time, we are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is. Then?
etam drstim avastabhya
ksayaya jagato 'hitah
"Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves..."
Prabhupada: This is their platform line for line, demoniac. Then their activities.
Hari-sauri: "...and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world."
Prabhupada: Just see. There is periodical war.
kamam asritya duspuram
"The demoniac, taking shelter of insatiable lust, pride and false prestige, and being thus illusioned, are always sworn to unclean work, attracted by the impermanent."
"They believe that to gratify the senses unto the end of life is the prime necessity of human civilization. Thus there is no end to their anxiety. Being bound by hundreds and thousands of desires, by lust and anger, they secure money by illegal means for sense gratification."
Prabhupada: Hm. Leave it, this.
Prabhupada: There is purport?
Hari-sauri: In every civilized human society there is some set of scriptural rules and regulations which are followed from the beginning, especially among the Aryans, those who adopt the Vedic civilization and who are known as the most advanced civilized peoples. Those who do not follow the scriptural injunctions are supposed to be demons. Therefore it is stated here that the demons do not know the scriptural rules, nor do they have any inclination to follow them. Most of them do not know them, and even if some of them know, they have not the tendency to follow them. They have no faith, nor are they willing to act in terms of the Vedic injunctions. The demons are not clean, either externally or internally.
One should always be careful to keep his body clean by bathing, brushing teeth, changing clothes, etc. As far as internal cleanliness is concerned, one should always remember the holy names of God and chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. The demons neither like nor follow all these rules for external and internal cleanliness.
As for behavior, there are many rules and regulations guiding human behavior, such as the Manu-samhita, which is the law of the human race. Even up to today, those who are Hindu follow the Manu-samhita. Laws of inheritance and other legalities are derived from this book. Now, in the Manu-samhita, it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. Children are not given freedom, but that does not mean that they are kept as slaves. The demons have now neglected such injunctions, and they think that women should be given as much freedom as men. However, this has not improved the social condition of the world. Actually, a woman should be given protection at every stage of life. She should be given protection by the father in her younger days, by the husband in her youth, and by the grownup sons in her old age. This is proper social behavior according to the Manu-samhita. But modern education has artificially devised a puffed up concept of womanly life, and therefore marriage is practically now an imagination in human society. Nor is the moral condition of woman very good now. The demons, therefore, do not accept any instruction which is good for society, and because they do not follow the experience of great sages and the rules and regulations laid down by the sages, the social condition of the demoniac people is very miserable.
[break], The demoniac conclude that the world is phantasmagoria. There is no cause, no effect, no controller, no purpose: everything is unreal. They say that this cosmic manifestation arises due to chance material actions and reactions. They do not think that the world was created by God for a certain purpose. They have their own theory: that the world has come about in its own way and that there is no reason to believe that there is a God behind it. For them there is no difference between spirit and matter, and they do not accept the Supreme Spirit. Everything is matter only, and the whole cosmos is supposed to be a mass of ignorance. According to them, everything is void, and whatever manifestation exists is due to our ignorance in perception. They take it for granted that all manifestation of diversity is a display of ignorance. Just as in a dream we may create so many things, which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream. And so, instead of acquiring knowledge, they become more and more implicated in their dreamland. They conclude that as a child is simply the result of sexual intercourse between man and woman, this world is born without any soul. For them it is only a combination of matter that has produced the living entities, and there is no question of the existence of the soul. As many living creatures come out from perspiration and from a dead body without any cause, similarly, the whole living world has come out of the material combinations of the cosmic manifestation. Therefore material nature is the cause of this manifestation, and there is no other cause. They do not believe in the words of Krsna in Bhagavad-gita: mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. "Under My direction the whole material world is moving." In other words, amongst the demons there is no perfect knowledge of the creation of this world; every one of them has some particular theory of his own. According to them, one interpretation of the scriptures is as good as another, for they do not believe in a standard understanding of the scriptural injunctions.
Prabhupada: Should we read?
Prabhupada: It is already there.
Satsvarupa: The whole defense is prepared by Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna has given all knowledge. Actually nobody has tried to present Bhagavad-gita like this. That's a fact. And it is acting. (laughs) Now it is acting. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante... [Bg. 7.15]. Make your defense measure consulting all these books, everything. Transmigration, in the morning I...?
Satsvarupa: You explained that whatever a person is thinking, that's his desire. At the time of death the desire is very prominent, so he takes a body according to that desire. And then you described exactly how it happens, that the subtle body carries the soul, just like the air carries the aroma of the flower into the semina of the man to the woman who supplies the ingredients, and the body comes out. In this way he travels from one body to another.
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