Prabhupada: So I think that we can go day after tomorrow.

Bhavananda: That's all right.

Prabhupada: What is that? (breaks)

Tamala Krsna: ...kidnapped three of our devotees about a week before we... Just about a week...

Prabhupada: So we cannot take any position?

Tamala Krsna: Well, no, because the kidnapping is legal. They got...

Prabhupada: Then what can be done?

Tamala Krsna: They got permission from the court for conservatorship.

Adi-kesava: But two of the devotees have already escaped.

Prabhupada: If it is legal, what can I say?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, that's... This is their new tactic now. This is their new tactic, that they're getting the court permission.

Prabhupada: Then Americans' liberty is gone.

Tamala Krsna: That's why the lawyers and others are very alarmed, the intellectuals, 'cause they're seeing it is becoming like Russia.

Adi-kesava: They're saying now that psychological freedom is more important in the law than religious freedom.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, if the law helps to kidnap, then what you can do?

Tamala Krsna: He says that just now there was a meeting of the five hundred leading rabbis of the Jewish faith in favor of deprogramming, because they're very alarmed that the young men and women of the synagogues are joining our movement and other type of movements and leaving their so-called past religion. So the rabbis are going to take up... They like this deprogramming. They like this kidnapping. And he says also that just now in Newsweek magazine there's been a big article printed in favor of deprogramming, special article about this Tucson, Arizona, deprogramming center. So he says that he expects more and more of this deprogramming. He's a little bit alarmed because all of our leaders will be here in India now for the next few weeks.

Adi-kesava: Turn the fan off...

Prabhupada: The light, not the fan.

Hari-sauri: It won't turn off the same way it turned on.

Prabhupada: Why don't you do it?

Tamala Krsna: So he's a little alarmed that we'll all be coming to India, and these deprogrammers, they know this. So he's concerned.

Prabhupada: So do you think by going there they'll be saved?

Tamala Krsna: By staying in America, you mean?

Prabhupada: Hm.

Tamala Krsna: No.

Prabhupada: Then?

Adi-kesava: Most of the work that we can do doesn't have much to do with someone being taken, one person. It has to do with dealing with the whole issue. When we make...

Prabhupada: No, how is this American law is allowed that anyone can be kidnapped?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, that's the whole point...

Adi-kesava: We have gotten in some states injunctions from the court so that people cannot be taken. For instance in California they have an injunction. In Massachusetts...

Prabhupada: If this injunction is there, why don't you take steps and...?

Adi-kesava: They took them from other states. So we're trying to extend it now to the other states. But in some places there are new laws, so we have to find a new way to go against it. We have just defeated the law in the state of Vermont. They proposed one law...

Prabhupada: That law, but is what can I say?

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, no, I mean he wasn't asking for any statement. I was just giving it as information.

Prabhupada: That they have already taken. (converses with man in Bengali) [break] When there is fight, fight is fight. They'll take their tactics; we shall take our tactics.

Tamala Krsna: You can see which groups are alarmedthe parents, the rabbis, and the priests.

Prabhupada: They should be alarmed. If Hare Krsna movement goes on, then their culture will be finished.

Tamala Krsna: There was one newsletter they had where they published, "Now our main enemies..." And they listed who the enemies are. They listed Ramesvara's name, Adi-kesava's name, Kirtanananda's name. "These are dangerous enemies," they said.

Prabhupada: Enemy must be always dangerous. And Canakya Pandita said that "Don't take enemy leniently. Always think of him as dangerous." If you want to deal with enemy, you should always take him as very dangerous. Where is that sweet water? Sweet, that misri?

Hari-sauri: You want sweet water?

Prabhupada: Where is that misri? No, we have to fight. Devise means, ways, how to fight. That's all. But try to prove that they have no brain. Actually that is the fact. Nobody has brain, especially in this age. Na mam duskrtino mudhah [Bg. 7.15]. Mudha means one who has no brain. Mudha, this word, applies to the ass, because ass has no brain. He works so hard for little grass, which is available everywhere. But still, he thinks that "This washerman is giving me grass." Therefore mudha. He'll stand at the door of the washerman whole day, eating little grass, which he can get anywhere. So that is mudha. Mudhah nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Bas. And anyone who is a mudha, he does not know Krsna. So so long we do not know Krsna, we shall remain mudha-ass. That's the fact. The whole system is to understand Krsna. But one does not know Krsna, so he remains mudha, and therefore all his attempt is baffled. (Bengali) [break] ...speaking that "Everyone who is not a krsna-bhakta, he's a gadha." Do you believe in this or not, first of all? Unless you are firmly convinced, you cannot say strongly. (Bengali) Krsna-bhakta naya ei sei gadha. (Bengali) Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. (Bengali) [break]...must be intelligent. Otherwise how can I say that you are rascal if I am in the same category? So that I was explaining in the morning. Where is your brain? And mudha is one who has no brain. [break] Wherefrom consciousness comes? Where is consciousness? What is that consciousness? You have to explain. Otherwise...

Indian man (1): However nicely we may decorate a dead body, it has no consciousness.

Prabhupada: That is good, but why stress on Krsna conscious? Everyone is conscious. Even an ant is conscious. Therefore I say, first of all you be convinced; then you say. Otherwise it will be ludicrous.

Indian man (2): But it has been said in the Vedas... Whatever has been said in the Vedas are cent percent truth and fact. Vedas have been compiled not by human knowledge or material knowledge but by transcendental knowledge.

Prabhupada: So that you have to explain, what is that transcendental knowledge. So what is to be done now if they're taking our boys by force?

Tamala Krsna: Well, there's two things. One thing is that from our side we have to explain that they have no brains. That we have to preach. And from the other side, all of these other professional groups who are helping us, they have to counteract what these deprogrammers are doing by lobbying in Congress and all the other legal means. We cannot do that, but they have position; they can do that. So we should inspire them to do that.

Adi-kesava: For every letter that the deprogrammers write to some Congressmen, they have to write a letter. For every speech that the deprogrammers give, they must give a speech. That is the only way it will work. Just like they applied to the Catholic Church to speak in the classes of the Catholic Church about cults and deprogramming. So now we have also had our people apply to the Catholic Church that we can also speak in their classes in favor of Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: So then you have to go?

Adi-kesava: But they have to do it because they will listen to the professionals. They won't listen to us. They say, "You just want to talk your religion." But if a professional man, a big professor, comes in and says, "I can tell you..."

Prabhupada: We have got so many professor friends. There is Dr. Stillson Judah, Dr. Sukla. There are so many.

Adi-kesava: Dr. Sukla is here in India now.

Prabhupada: And our doctors also, Ph.D., they can go.

Adi-kesava: We wanted to have our Ph.D.'s go.

Prabhupada: Hm. Hm.

Adi-kesava: Especially I've been speaking with Madhava in Boston, but Rupanuga was telling them that they should just stay and write for the journal and not go out and preach. I wanted them to go and speak on our behalf as Ph.D.'s.

Prabhupada: No, no. It is now necessary.

Adi-kesava: They are eager to do it.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Adi-kesava: All right. We'll arrange that.

Indian man (3): Mohanananda(?) Brahmacari. Which class of Vaisnavism he follow?

Prabhupada: I don't recognize him as a Vaisnava. If you want more, then I will have to use more strong words.

Indian man (3): No, if he's...

Prabhupada: He's not a Vaisnava. He's a bogus man! He wants to establish that Jagabandhu is incarnation of Caitanya. Where he got this authority? And he got the title Doctor and so... Why does he not preach in America? Some of our men say it is bogus, purchased title. You can get such title if you pay money.

Indian man (3): Academically he's very highly qualified, academically.

Prabhupada: How you know?

Indian man (3): Examiner of Ph.D. and P.R.S.

Prabhupada: In Calcutta University?

Indian man (3): He was. I don't know...

Prabhupada: When he was?

Indian man (3): Few years back.

Prabhupada: Then why he is rejected?

Indian man (3): His terms has expired.

Prabhupada: Their terms do not expire. Anyway, he has got Ph.D. in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy, but he does not know Caitanya philosophy. Otherwise how he said that Jagabandhu is incarnation of Gaura-Nitai? Or something like that, he said. He does not know. One who does not know what is Caitanya Mahaprabhu, how he gets his doctorate title on that philosophy? Even if he has got by some means, but where is the authority to prove that Jagabandhu is the combination of Gaura-Nitai? No acarya has said like thatBhaktivinoda Thakura or Narottama dasa Thakura, Visvanatha Cakravarti. Where he got this bogus idea? Do you believe in that?

Indian man (3): No.

Prabhupada: Then? There was great agitation in Navadvipa. He wanted to establish a temple of Jagabandhu. Do you know that?

Tamala Krsna: Acyutananda spoke in a big meeting against this.

Prabhupada: Yes, I sent him. (laughs) He challenged that his title is purchased.

Tamala Krsna: They applauded that.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Tamala Krsna: They applauded at that meeting.

Prabhupada: Yes. If he knows about, anything about Caitanya, why should he say like that? Bogus temple. By attempting to establish a temple like that, he has diminished his value. And therefore it is doubtful whether he actually obtained this. Now, our Bon Maharaja also writes "Doctor."

Tamala Krsna: Purchased title. These deprogrammers are doing very active campaign work by getting entry into the schools, the public schools, to speak to the children in the age groups of twelve, between twelve and fifteen, junior high school, high school age. And they're making presentations to them about these different groups like ours, to beware of our groups. To beware of our groups. In other words, it's actually very bad because these children are innocent, and from a very young age now they're being told, "Watch out for the Hare Krsnas. They will brainwash you." Of course, that makes us even more appealing.

Prabhupada: That is our advertisement.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. Because when a young man, when a child is told by his... When a child is told by his parents, "Don't do something..."

Prabhupada: They'll do it.

Adi-kesava: Plus, as the teachers begin to see all the big scholars are supporting us, then the teachers will not react so favorably to these deprogrammers.

Indian man (3): Like, like that (Bengali).

Prabhupada: (Bengali) Where is Satsvarupa? You can give him that, yes, that monama.(?) (end)