Tamala Krsna: John Lennon. (Govindam record playing in background)

Prabhupada: At that time I used to come to Conway Hall. It took at least one hour. Then they inquired. In that car I was singing with this tune, govindam adi-purusam. So they adjusted this word, George, Mukunda and...

Tamala Krsna: Yamuna.

Prabhupada: And took up this tune. I was repeating. They were chanting within the car while coming from Conway Hall to... That is intelligence.

Tamala Krsna: Not to do anything new, simply to explain in one's own way.

Prabhupada: This song was favorite to me since very, very long time. This album was very popular in Europe and America.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. It was not quite as popular as the first record, "Hare Krsna." That was...

Prabhupada: Which I sung.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. And also the "Hare Krsna" which they sung, you remember, in London, that was very popular. Even in Communist countries it was popular.

Jayapataka: There was a headline in the newspaper, Hare Krsna rock... [break] ...and put this in our exhibit. That will go a long way for making the people more Krsna conscious. They really... The only thing...

Prabhupada: You give your mother. She can utilize it. She's very intelligent girl. [break]

Svarupa Damodara: ...Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Sit down. I am little better today. Sometimes for the last... How many days? I am... [break] ...think great. I told you this must have been published.

Tamala Krsna: Should I read it, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Yes. You can get this light on.

Tamala Krsna: "Washington, March 18th. The Hare Krsna movement was called a 'bona fide religion' yesterday by the New York high-court justice who threw out two charges against the officials of the movement of 'illegal imprisonment' and 'attempted extortion.' A charge had been preferred by an angry parent that his son, as well as another disciple, had been held by the movement illegally and that they had been brainwashed. 'The entire and basic issue before the court,' said the Justice in dismissing the charges, 'is whether or not the two alleged victims in this case and the defendants will be allowed to practice the religion of their choice, and this must be answered with a resounding affirmative.' Said Mr. Justice John J. Lee, 'The Hare Krsna movement is a bona fide religion with roots in India that go back thousands of years. It behooved Merrilee Kreshower and Edward Shapiro to follow the tenets of that faith, and their inalienable right to do so will not be trampled upon.' " This is all quote. " 'The separation of Church and State must be maintained. We are and must remain a nation of laws, not of men. The presentment and indictment by the Grand Jury was in direct and blatant violation of the defendants' Constitutional rights.' The Justice said that it appeared to the court that 'The people rest their case on an erroneous minor premise to arrive at a fallacious conclusion. The record is devoid of one specific allegation of a misrepresentation or any act of deception on the part of any defendant.' The Justice said, 'The freedom of religion is not to be abridged because it is unconventional in its beliefs and practices or because it is approved or disapproved by the mainstream of society or more conventional religions. Without this proliferation and freedom to follow the dictates of one's own conscience in this search for the approach to God, the freedom of religion will be a meaningless right as provided for in the Constitution. Any attempt, be it circuitous, direct, well-intentioned or not, presents a clear and present danger to this most fundamental basis and eternally needed right of our citizens-freedom of religion.' "

Prabhupada: Hm. That is...

Tamala Krsna: "The Hare Krsna movement has been under pressure from various groups, and this judgment is expected to stop some of the harassment to which it has been subjected in recent months."

Svarupa Damodara: Very good.

Prabhupada: So you purchase some copies.

Tamala Krsna: Hm. This is yesterday's Times of India from Bombay. When we get to Bombay we'll go to their office. We can buy back issues, I think. I don't know... I'll find out who... Abhirama gave me this. "Published from Bombay, Delhi, and Ahmedabad."

Prabhupada: Now we have got a sound position.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Maybe it's in some other... I have the Sunday Statesman.

Prabhupada: In the first page they have given, eh?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. First page of Times of India.

Prabhupada: And big heading?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. "Hare Krsna Movement is Bona Fide Religion." You couldn't pay for an advertisement this good.

Prabhupada: So my mission is now successful.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: In 1965 I went there, and this is now recognized after ten years ago. Ten or twelve years, eh?

Tamala Krsna: Twelve years.

Prabhupada: Loitering in the street. Nobody cared for me. Alone carrying the books. Now organize Bombay as our headquarter, New York as sub-office. Or headquarter in America.

Svarupa Damodara: What about Los Angeles?

Prabhupada: Anywhere. I told you that it must have been published.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. You can see that the Bombay newspaper is better than these Calcutta papers.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Certainly.

Tamala Krsna: Because the Calcutta paper has not yet carried it. It may be that Times of India has a relationship with some New York Times.

Prabhupada: It is as good as The Statesman.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, it's actually more prominent than The Statesman, I think. Yeah. There's no mention. There's no mention in these other papers.

Prabhupada: So you are also coming to Bombay?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. I'm also thinking to go to Delhi to make that inner pass for possible visit to Manipur.

Prabhupada: That may be suspended for the time.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh. So shall I...?

Prabhupada: We have to do so many things always.

Svarupa Damodara: But at the same time traveling may not be so...

Prabhupada: Fruitful.

Svarupa Damodara: Prabhupada's health. It may not be so wise.

Prabhupada: If Manipur is prepared to help me... What is this? The same tablet? No.

Tamala Krsna: I've gotten a week's supply of these other tablets. I got the prescription filled.

Prabhupada: Keep it here.

Tamala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: That has given me great relief.

Tamala Krsna: Oh. Swelling is reduced, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: That I do not know. But internally I am feeling relief.

Svarupa Damodara: Swelling here?

Tamala Krsna: No. His feet.

Prabhupada: Not very much, but there is.

Tamala Krsna: Not so much. I think that pill works for swelling. The swelling is due to urine, not...

Prabhupada: So now we have to push on this movement as the (heavy coughing) bona fide religion, but the most scientific, not dogmas. That we have to do.

Svarupa Damodara: Yesterday I made a tour of Manipur to see a possible location for a temple, and I saw a nice place.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Svarupa Damodara: It's just near the present temple of Govinda that I was talking. It is a small forest full of monkeys, and they are so friendly.

Prabhupada: Monkeys are very friendly.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes. They're much more friendly than monkeys in Vrndavana. (laughing) I have seen that many, very healthy. There's some sort of welcome people coming. There are many. That place is some sort of a central place of Imphala. It's a very..., spiritually, a very conducive area. Many kinds of birds, and it's very natural surroundings. So I went with two of our life members, and they are thinking that maybe we can approach the government so that we can get the land from Manipur government, and then we can construct a temple.

Prabhupada: That's good idea. Yes. So now organize things. My presence or no presence, we have got now a position. We have to push on this movement very cautiously.

Tamala Krsna: Svarupa Damodara Prabhu was mentioning that he met Upendra.

Prabhupada: Oh. Where?

Svarupa Damodara: In the airport, Calcutta airport. He arrived last night, but somehow his luggage was left in Bombay airport. So the luggage is coming tonight at seven o'clock for Bombay-Calcutta flight, and he told me that he's coming after, a taxi. So he'll be arriving about nine o'clock tonight.

Prabhupada: Oh. He has received that telegram.

Tamala Krsna: In Hawaii.

Prabhupada: He is coming from Hawaii?

Tamala Krsna: Yes.

Prabhupada: Accha. (laughs)

Tamala Krsna: He went all the way back to Hawaii.

Prabhupada: All right.

Tamala Krsna: I think we're doing all right.

Prabhupada: He's enthusiastic.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. He's very anxious. I was even thinking of coming together, but I came by train from Calcutta, from Dum Dum station. But he told me that he has nothing. All the clothings and everything in that luggage. So he'll come.

Prabhupada: Never mind. He shall come.

Svarupa Damodara: This letter written by him.

Tamala Krsna: It says, "Dear Tamala Krsna, we received your telegram and acted immediately after confirming with Ramesvara." This is from Upendra.

Prabhupada: Oh. "Unfortunately, after seven-hour stopover in Tokyo, they lost my reservations on my connecting flight. That, coupled with the fact that after arriving last night I find they've sent my belongings to Bombay, so I am waiting until the evening for the flight from Bombay when I get my trunk. I shall try to hire a taxi directly to Mayapura. I would come now but I have absolutely no personal clothes or anything. Please tell Prabhupada that I am due this evening. If not, then I shall ask the Calcutta devotees to care for my luggage and I'll proceed immediately."

Prabhupada: No, there is no need of coming. We are going.

Tamala Krsna: (laughs) It's hard to reach him. He's...

Svarupa Damodara: In the airport.

Tamala Krsna: (laughs) ...stationed in the Calcutta airport.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Tamala Krsna: You have quite a big entourage now.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Scientist...

Prabhupada: But our most auspicious sign is this, "Hare Krsna movement is bona fide religion."

Tamala Krsna: This is preceding your arrival in Bombay.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: It's announcing your coming, practically. Very prominent.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, I found Bombay very good scope.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Organize Bombay as the center of...

Svarupa Damodara: Especially when our that big hall is finished, we can hold several lectures...

Prabhupada: Daily. At least weekly twice. Sunday, Monday, we shall hold lectures and call all scholarly people to understand. Make it nicely.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh. We went a few days ago to Calcutta University to see the vice chancellor. Four of us went, the other two scientists and Ravindra Svarupa, and we talked with the inspector of schools, who came to visit here in Mayapura about two months ago, and we discussed the possibility of getting affiliated in the Calcutta University, of giving some Ph.D. degrees in our philosophy. He indicated some ideas that it is possible, but he suggested that we must have a very good library.

Prabhupada: That is the difficulty.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. They already said that two years ago.

Svarupa Damodara: Oh.

Tamala Krsna: They want us to buy so many nonsense books.

Prabhupada: And nobody reads.

Tamala Krsna: But there's no doubt it would be a big help if we could give Ph.D.s.

Prabhupada: Not...

Tamala Krsna: Wouldn't it establish? Give some prestige?

Prabhupada: Do you think it will be a...

Svarupa Damodara: We are also talking about some sort of exchange program, students coming from...

Prabhupada: Bon Maharaja is giving Ph.D. Nobody cares for it. And nobody comes to take the Ph.D. These are all superficial.

Svarupa Damodara: It's not immediately necessary.

Prabhupada: No. So you are coming from, now? Manipur.

Svarupa Damodara: I'm coming from Manipur. I made several preaching engagements in the law college, the colleges and universities in Manipur also.

Prabhupada: So it was all successful?

Svarupa Damodara: Oh, yes. They are very anxious to hear about the science of Krsna consciousness.

Prabhupada: Oh. That is good.

Svarupa Damodara: Especially in law college. The title is very appropriate. We say "The Laws of Nature." In the law college we speak about the laws of nature and the fundamental principles of knowledge from not only the scientific angle.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarupa Damodara: And it's quite appropriate. The theme is...

Prabhupada: This is verse of Bhagavad-gita, prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. You cannot violate the laws of nature. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You are strictly under the obligation, or laws of nature. Why you are talking nonsense? This should be... And under the strict laws of nature—you are eternal—simply you are suffering while transforming this body or transmigrating your soul over... And it is so risky that today you are human being; tomorrow you may be a dog, a tree. Then your life is spoiled. Today you have got so nice intelligence to deliver you from the clutches of the laws of nature, and tomorrow you may not be able. Then you are lost in the laws of nature. This is your position. So at least this institution must be there. People may take little advantage of it. If he begins, that is also great guarantee that he gets another chance, another chance. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat. Yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate. Why this chance should not be given to the human society? What is this nonsense dog dancing, election, and bribing, stealing, and unnecessarily struggle? What they'll do? They are all nothing, all of these. What will be gained by this?

Svarupa Damodara: It's very effective. We are just about ready to print something in Bombay. Our two other are in Bombay now, two other scientists.

Prabhupada: Let us go there and organize. At least for one month we shall remain there. Let us organize.

Tamala Krsna: A lot of the senior devotees are still there. They've gone from here to Vrndavana, and now they're in Bombay, and they're waiting for your coming.

Prabhupada: I am therefore going. In spite of my so much inconveniences, I am going there.

Svarupa Damodara: At the end we try to... Even if we talk, we're trying to bring the..., that vasudeva-param jnanam...

Prabhupada: Vasudeva-para veda vasudeva-para... Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. This is wanted. At least, one must know. Why they should be kept in darkness? What is this civilization? They have got light. The knowledge is there. They can be educated. And unnecessarily they are kept into darkness. Is that civilization? Others may do it. They have no knowledge. Why India? India should now stand up—"Stop this nonsense." They have got this culture. That is India's mission. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma. India cannot tolerate this. Do you follow? When... Even it is not possible to introduce this movement in a large scale, there is no harm. Anyone who takes it, he is happy. It is very difficult. We are not expected that manusyanam sahasresu [Bg. 7.3], everyone will be able to do it. But the ideal should be there. And it is India's duty to keep this ideal, Indian people's duty, government's duty. That will keep India's prestige in the highest level. Make propaganda like that. Why India should be lowered down unnecessarily while we have got so much stock of knowledge, scientific knowledge? Am I right?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Why? It doesn't matter, only a few persons may take, but the ideal must be there. And preach all over the world. For me it will be difficult to move everywhere, but so long my life is there, I'll give you hint. You develop it.

Svarupa Damodara: So far in Manipur, most people in the educated class, they all accept.

Prabhupada: Then that will be very nice. I want to have a small Vaisnava state-varnasrama ideal.

Svarupa Damodara: This is possible in Manipur.

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore I thought it. Ideal Vaisnava state. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, they are doing very nicely, and people will be surprised, "Oh." There is no question of hatred. It is division for proper discharge of duty.

Svarupa Damodara: But I saw in the airport, the policemen, they have this tilaka.

Prabhupada: Tilaka.

Svarupa Damodara: Policemen, they are dressed, but they have tilaka.

Prabhupada: Manipur? Manipur?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, Manipur. And always give respect. Though I am nobody, but...

Prabhupada: Tilaka.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Wow. The policemen wear tilaka. There is justice for sure.

Prabhupada: So immediately do it. I shall go. If there is such possibility... Let us have a small ideal state. If respectable gentlemen take it, oh, it will be a great success, an ideal state throughout the whole world, Vaisnava state.

Tamala Krsna: Example. You can show that example.

Prabhupada: Show their policemen, all with tilaka, and marching, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare."

Tamala Krsna: Do they chant there?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. They have...

Prabhupada: We shall train them. Military march, Manipur. Slogan: "Jaya Radhe! Jaya Krsna! Jaya Babhruvahana! Jaya Arjuna!" And then let us go. We shall organize Bombay headquarter, Manipur Vaisnava state, send missionary all over the world, bona fide, scientific system of religion, ideal character. Ideal character. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana sarvair gunais tatra samasate surah [SB 5.18.12]. That we have to show. "Here is the sum total of all good qualities." That we have to show. We haven't got to go anywhere. Knowledge, good quality, happiness, advancement of life, everything complete. So let us go to Manipur. Arrange for that.

Svarupa Damodara: So should we arrange for this April 5th, 4th, around that time, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: April 5th. No harm. We are... Kodaikanal, we wanted to go by the end of the...

Tamala Krsna: You wanted to go... Bombay pandal ends about the 30th.

Prabhupada: Thirtieth.

Tamala Krsna: So that means there's still about another week until the 5th. March has thirty-one days. So there'll still be another week. And then there's a week in between Bombay and Kodaikanal. Kodaikanal(?) by 15th.

Prabhupada: Fifteenth or later on.

Tamala Krsna: That can be later. At least by 15th, 20th, like that.

Prabhupada: So let us go, our whole party.

Tamala Krsna: You want to stay in Bombay, stay until the... Is there any date until?

Prabhupada: I don't want to stay anywhere. I want work.

Tamala Krsna: So there's work everywhere. (laughs)

Prabhupada: Staying, I have stayed big, big palaces, big, big cities. That is now complete. I have no other desire.

Tamala Krsna: How long do you want to work in Bombay? I mean, till...

Prabhupada: So long there is work. There is no end of it. Our Bombay should be organized. Work is our life. There is no question of "How long?" As long as possible. Krsna giving us good opportunities. Now we should take it seriously. It is not joke. "Hare Krsna movement is bona fide religion."

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, that will be...

Tamala Krsna: Very important.

Svarupa Damodara: Yes, especially in the United States.

Prabhupada: New York high-court decision.

Tamala Krsna: Very important. This man is senior man too in the courts, very old, conservative.

Prabhupada: But I think he's sincere.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, he's God-believing. This statement that he makes at the end, this statement that "Any attempt, be it circuitous, direct, well-intentioned or not, presents a clear and present danger to this most fundamental basis and eternally needed right of our citizens." "Eternally needed right." Freedom of religion.

Prabhupada: So we should send him a letter of congratulations. "May God bless you for such right judgment. Be... Live long life to serve God." Like that, make a nice... That is our mission.

Svarupa Damodara: Very honest and sincere people normally appreciate our movement. Only those who are envious...

Prabhupada: Envious we don't care for. We don't mind. Never care for them. I didn't care anyone, any times, even my Godbrothers. Neither I care just now. I'll go on with my... Why? We are doing our duty. That's all. Under higher authoritative order. Have no fear. It is not personal gratification. So arrange for Manipur. We shall go. Let us go.

Svarupa Damodara: So I'll go to Delhi tomorrow and...

Prabhupada: Go.

Svarupa Damodara: ...arrange with the Home Minister. Minister of Home has to give the permit.

Prabhupada: And then come back to Bombay?

Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Then I'm coming to Bombay.

Prabhupada: Now work very strenuously. You are all young men, and somehow or other, dead horse, you have given life. Otherwise the last fortnight I was thinking I am dead now. I was thinking like that, 'Now life is finished." Life can be finished at any time. That is not wonderful. To live, that is wonderful. If my life is finished, that is not wonderful. Nobody will lament. "Oh, he was old man, eighty-two years old." But if I can live for some days more, that is wonderful. If I die, that is not wonderful.

Tamala Krsna: Krsna is wonderful.

Prabhupada: Krsna is wonderful always.

Bhavananda: And you are wonderful.

Prabhupada: I am wonderful so long I serve Krsna. Otherwise useless. No value. If I can serve Krsna, then I am wonderful certainly. We don't want to become cheap wonderful. We want to become really wonderful by serving Krsna. That is our mission. Krsna is wonderful undoubtedly. Who can become more wonderful than Krsna? Mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. Always remember, Krsna is wonderful. Don't take Krsna very slightly like one of you. That is foolishness. Krsna is wonderful always. He's the most wonderful person, and He can, does... He can do anything wonderful.

Svarupa Damodara: He can also give wonderful guru.

Prabhupada: Yes. Guru-krsna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija [Cc. Madhya 19.151]. It is Krsna's wonderful mercy that one can get guru. Guru-krsna-prasade paya. Don't forget for a moment, that Krsna is insignificant. He's always the most wonderful. He can do anything, whatever He likes. They have no such belief. They have no such idea. They are different. "We believe in this." Not believe. This is a fact! You believe or not believe, who cares for you? Fact is fact. So arrange. We shall go. [break] "...Krsna is wonderful," that makes one perfect. You know that story? The cobbler and Narada Muni? Hm? The cobbler believed, "Yes, Krsna is wonderful." And Narada Muni immediately certified, "Yes, your salvation, this life guaranteed." The cobbler has his conviction, "Yes, Krsna is wonderful. Krsna can do anything. Krsna can draw an elephant through the hole of a needle. Why not? It's possible." That faith made him perfect. If Krsna is not wonderful, is it possible for me to do all these things? What I am?

Svarupa Damodara: Sometimes people ask whether I have seen anything very powerful in Srila Prabhupada. I sometimes answer, saying that when Srila Prabhupada came to the United States, all the foreign disciples, all the Americans, they all because of their social structure, eating all kinds of things, but they are all now pure Vaisnavas. So it is the greatest wonder that one can expect. So they become very silent, just hearing the answer, seeing that there is something very powerful.

Prabhupada: Yes. First of all they admitted in that Voice, that "We thought God is dead. Here Swamiji has brought." They admitted like that. [break] ...wife, she is also coming from very respectable family. Her father, grandfather all... Doctor had big...

Tamala Krsna: Allahabad. Dr. Ghosh.

Prabhupada: Yes. Director of... [break] So arrange for that. [break] ...part of the country where there is vigorous malaria.

Tamala Krsna: Really?

Prabhupada: Yes. Because he is director.

Tamala Krsna: You were also traveling.

Prabhupada: No, I was not traveling. The wife was traveling.

Tamala Krsna: His wife?

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore doctor became fortunate. He got very good wife.

Tamala Krsna: But you were most fortunate.

Prabhupada: Huh? [break] I think so.

Tamala Krsna: And your wife wasn't so good.

Prabhupada: Because she was always against Krsna... My father said like that, that "You are so fortunate that you don't like your wife. Don't try to marry again."

Tamala Krsna: You were thinking like that.

Prabhupada: "You are fortunate." I took it seriously. "People try to give up the company of wife with great difficulty. You have natural tendency."

Tamala Krsna: It doesn't seem like your sons are very..., except for Vrndavana. None of the others come.

Prabhupada: They are like mother.

Tamala Krsna: I met that Madan-Mohan.

Prabhupada: Mathura.

Tamala Krsna: Mathura-Mohan. Whew! Smoking.

Prabhupada: All spoiled. Mother has spoiled. Everyone.

Tamala Krsna: What about this Vrndavana? He's...

Prabhupada: He's half-spoiled.

Tamala Krsna: Is he the oldest son?

Prabhupada: He was little crazy. Might have gone away from home. Very intelligent boy he was. His mother made him crazy. Very... He was standing first in school. Very intelligent. She spoiled the whole family life. It was good for... For my youngest daughter I selected one very nice boy, rich man. She did not give. She wanted to keep her as her assistant, and she's not married.

Tamala Krsna: Even now. How old? She must be forty-five years old.

Prabhupada: Not so much. Older than Vrndavana.

Tamala Krsna: So she must be thirty-five.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thirty-five. Most irresponsible and lethargetic.

Tamala Krsna: Very selfish to keep one's daughter not married.

Prabhupada: But still, all the children are addicted to the mother. She does not do anything. I used to... Like that.

Tamala Krsna: They should be addicted to you.

Prabhupada: They all boka, rejected. Let them become happy in their own way. [break] But because I talk with everyone, they are...

Tamala Krsna: What will be the difference between the Vrndavana gurukula and this gurukula?

Prabhupada: Nothing. The same thing. [break] Civilized man. "Beware of Dog." "Keep aloof, private place."

Tamala Krsna: Fearful.

Prabhupada: And just see result. Cannot believe in faith(?). Human being. And dogs are so trained... You have not seen the dog. It is within the house. You're passing, they'll bark, unnaturally disturbing. You cannot peacefully walk on the street.

Tamala Krsna: Sometimes they attack people.

Prabhupada: Yes. They do not like people should walk on the street.

Tamala Krsna: And neither you can, because their stool is everywhere.

Prabhupada: Yes. Strewn all over.

Tamala Krsna: And if you tell them to walk..., curb the dog, they get very angry: "Oh, you have insulted me." They demand that you respect their dog.

Prabhupada: Yes. If you ask him to take care of his dog, he feels insulted.

Tamala Krsna: Remember in the park? In Central Park we were walking. That woman was very angry.

Prabhupada: Most uncivilized. So this will finish. This will not stay. It is already being finished by this Communist country. Only hope is this, if they want to be saved.

Tamala Krsna: Many people are beginning to realize the important part that this movement is going to play. A number of our enemies in New York said that this movement is the greatest threat to modern civilization.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Tamala Krsna: Many of our enemies in that brainwash case, they are starting to say, "This Hare Krsna movement is the greatest threat to our modern civilization."

Prabhupada: They?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. Oh, yes, they said it. In the newspaper it was reported.

Prabhupada: Yes, they say, "It is spreading like epidemic." What is that?

Devotee: Little more? (sound of eating)

Prabhupada: What is that civilization? Do they think that civilization is correct?

Tamala Krsna: They say that they are the most advanced civilization ever. This is the topmost yet. Man is becoming more and more evolved, from the ape until now. This is the pinnacle so far.

Prabhupada: And what you have gained? Criminals, fire brigade, always "dungdungdungdungdungdung," in every big city. And criminality increasing. Do you think it is civilization? Always anxious, and covering yourself by drinking, intoxicated. In New York street you would go out ordinary-hell! Two sides hell.

Tamala Krsna: And it has become worse in the last ten years. It is much worse.

Prabhupada: It must become worse.

Tamala Krsna: It is not safe now for anyone to walk on the street at night.

Prabhupada: Night or daylight, it is not.

Devotee: So many robbers.

Tamala Krsna: Oh, worse than robbers. I was in Central Park when I was a young boy, only five years old... (door opens)

Prabhupada: Who is come? Let him out.(?)

Tamala Krsna: There's a painting that one boy has done here which is not perfectly done, and he wants to get your advice on it.

Prabhupada: No, no. I cannot give him advice on painting. I have no experience. He should go to the painter.

Tamala Krsna: He's the boy who did that painting of Radha and Krsna that's outside where your vyasasana is. He wants to know how to fix it.

Prabhupada: Don't waste time like that. If he wants to paint, he should join the painters.

Tamala Krsna: In L.A.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Now he's working on painting the walls, front walls.

Prabhupada: That is all right.

Tamala Krsna: Jaya. There's already a place where he can go if he wants advice.

Prabhupada: If he wants to be expert.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Jadurani and Bharadvaja, they are trained up by you.

Prabhupada: No, there are many other painters.

Tamala Krsna: Muralidhara.

Prabhupada: Pariksit.

Tamala Krsna: Pariksit. Muralidhara is good too.

Prabhupada: Be a good painter. Don't waste time, your time, my time.

Devotee: This can be taken?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Tamala Krsna: Did this tangerine remove the bad taste? So every day we can give some tangerine.

Devotee: Tangerine is good.

Tamala Krsna: Especially if you can give with this medicine, then it will take away the bitter taste.

Prabhupada: ...pandu-ratha, Lord Visnu is there. [break] And we are speaking, duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15], completely opposite. So let them prove that this portion who have improved, it is an happy position.

Tamala Krsna: They cannot prove. But they say, "You also cannot prove anything."

Prabhupada: No, we say that this place is suffering. Therefore we have to leave this, our total exi... We don't say "This place is for suffering, and by material advancement of science we shall improve." We don't say. We totally reject it, that "It is a place of suffering. Why shall I remain here?"

Tamala Krsna: Their argument will be that "By illusion, you are thinking there is an alternative world."

Prabhupada: It may be illusion to you. It is fact to us.

Tamala Krsna: "But so it is fact to a lunatic," they'll say, "that he also has his mind thinking something. You are simply dreaming."

Prabhupada: But we may be dreaming, but factually what you have done? Ours may be dreaming, but yours, factually what you have done? You could not stop birth, death, old age, and disease. But I am suffering from this disease. You cannot stop it. I'll die. You cannot stop it.

Tamala Krsna: No, they have no answer for that.

Prabhupada: Then? But we may be dreaming.

Tamala Krsna: That point they'll press. They'll press that point, that... That's what they all think. When I talk to anybody I meet, they think that we are describing some fairy tale, Krsnaloka.

Prabhupada: That's all right. What is your actual fact! (long pause) (breaks) But when they take it as a serious thing in life, oh, everyone will be happy. Everyone will be...

Tamala Krsna: That hasn't come yet.

Prabhupada: That has not come. We want to introduce.

Tamala Krsna: More spontaneous.

Prabhupada: That is sure. Anyone who will take it, he will have the benefit. Such a civilization.

Tamala Krsna: Is that described as raganuga-bhakti?

Prabhupada: Hm? No. That is not raganuga.

Tamala Krsna: No, I mean when it's more spontaneous.

Prabhupada: That is raganuga.

Tamala Krsna: This is vaidhi-bhakti.

Prabhupada: This is... I am speaking from my realization. It is not superficial.

Tamala Krsna: No. Our platform now is simply on your order we are doing.

Prabhupada: Even there was no such suffering. Just like I am suffering now. It is due to so many irregularities. So many. For preaching I have violated so many things. What can be done? As far as possible, I have kept pace.

Tamala Krsna: (chuckling) No one could do what you have done, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: How I can... Main business is how to... Gaura-vani-pracarine. "Let them first of all, somehow or other, yena tena prakarena. Then I shall impose rules and regulations and regulative..." He has... You have not seen from the very beginning. They have seen. I worked very hard. Two times lectures, cooking, and meeting and twenty-four-hours writing book, typing. Not a single moment, and still I am not wasting single moment.

Tamala Krsna: No. Always thinking of Krsna.

Prabhupada: I was giving two tapes daily.

Tamala Krsna: I remember.

Prabhupada: Two tapes daily regularly. Bhagavad-gita and Bhagavata. Sometimes Brahmananda was typing, sometimes Satsvarupa, sometimes one boy, Neil, he was typing. He was very good typist.

Tamala Krsna: Stryadhisa.

Prabhupada: Sometimes in San Francisco one girl was typing. I was giving them sufficient work. Hayagriva was typing.

Tamala Krsna: You had everyone busy trying to keep up. Even now I see that you're not at all wasting a second. Even in the middle of the night you call...

Prabhupada: No, that, my... This is my childhood practice. I do not like to see anything wasted, nor I waste. I have told you many times that on the street I am going and seeing tap is open. I don't liked to see. I stop. Why it should be wasted?

Tamala Krsna: You taught us like that. Go around turning off the lights, things like that.

Prabhupada: Dr. Bose, Kartik Chandra Bose, his father was a go-down clerk in a tanner position(?). So in go-down, dal go-down, dal was falling down from the bag. Dr. Bose, Kartik Chandra Bose, he was a boy, he was taking the dal and trying to push within the hole. So his father's name was Prasana(?) Bose. His master was a European. He said, "Oh, this boy will be very big man, your son." So he had no idea how to save it, but he was trying to. Dr. Bose personally told me that "I was trying to push the dal through the hole within the bag." That is not possible, but he did not want to see waste. Why things should be wasted? Immediately that Mr. Morrison said to Prasana Bose, "Your this child will be..." So I had the same tendency. Dr. Bose liked me very much. Very much. He found me a prototype boy.

Tamala Krsna: More than his own sons.

Prabhupada: Of course, own son is own son, but he liked me very much, very, very much. He selected.

Tamala Krsna: Above other more senior men.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, selected me. "Someday I shall appoint him manager."

Tamala Krsna: The other people working there couldn't understand that so easily.

Prabhupada: Three, four men liked me very, very much. One is my father, one is Dr. Bose, Kartik Chandra, one my Guru Maharaja, and..., who else? One, my maternal uncle. Rakal Chandrardha. He was very rich man.

Tamala Krsna: What was his name?

Prabhupada: Rakal Chandrardha(?). He has got a street. He liked me. He's known to(?) take care of his son very nice.

Tamala Krsna: Your mother's brother.

Prabhupada: Not real, but cousin.

Tamala Krsna: Your mother's...

Prabhupada: My mother is the brother's daughter, and he was the sister daughter. Just like our this nephew, first cousin.

Tamala Krsna: That's a close relationship.

Prabhupada: Yes. So he treated... Although my mother was first cousin, he treated my mother as younger sister. In that way he liked my father also, myself. That gentleman and one Dr. Kartik Chandra Bose, and two-one, my own father and my Guru Maharaja. I knew that. He liked me. He liked me from the very heart. Guru Maharaja liked me. I know. By his blessing it is, everything has happened. I was not worth. What did I...? I do not know why he liked. I was not worth. There were so many disciples. And still, he liked me.

Tamala Krsna: He could see how pure you were.

Prabhupada: Maybe. Out of his affection, it is his good will. He can like anyone, any dog, doesn't matter. But I know he liked me. Anyone, by his choice of free will, he can love any damn thing. It doesn't matter. That is called krpa-siddhi. "I like this man. This man must be prominent." That is his will. It doesn't matter on qualification. So all these people, they liked me not on my qualification, but out of affection, out of good will. (laughs) Other, a woman. Woman means my mother-in-law. She was woman. Out of affection for her daughter, she would sacrifice everything for the..., so that her daughter may not be unhappy.

Tamala Krsna: Your mother-in-law. You said that when you took sannyasa, she could not take it.

Prabhupada: No, I must admit she was very, very kind. Very, very kind. Although she's woman, but on account of her daughter... Whatever I'll command, she'll suffer. Devarsi-bhutapta-nrnam pitrnam [SB 11.5.41]. We become indebted in this way with so many people. Devarsi.

Prabhupada: Where is the hot water? That wrapper is there.

Tamala Krsna: Cadara.

Prabhupada: So this tablet is effective. Prepare this.

Tamala Krsna: Today we'll get more.

Bhavananda: Srila Prabhupada, you'll go on the roof this morning?

Prabhupada: I have no objection. [break] Nobody likes. In order to taste the sugar, you have to chew so much.

Tamala Krsna: So many different potions also throughout the day. One time that kaviraja...

Prabhupada: They say that "Why should you bother so much? You have to take the sweet. Take sugar."

Tamala Krsna: Nobody can go through it. It's such trouble. An ordinary person can't do it. Unless you have a servant, you can't take kaviraja's medicine.

Prabhupada: Just see. The doctor recommended eight tablets at a time.

Tamala Krsna: More than once a day. Many times a day?

Prabhupada: Twice. Eight tablets.

Tamala Krsna: Modern medicine, they would combine all those in one pill. When you take your massage, Srila Prabhupada, do you find it more relaxing and beneficial if there's no talking going on, or...?

Prabhupada: Not necessarily.

Tamala Krsna: It doesn't matter. [break]

Prabhupada: For us it is not joke.

Tamala Krsna: Nobody has such a distribution force. So here in India the only problem I can see towards actually doing big-scale book distribution is that we don't have so many devotees. And those who we have, have to maintain...

Prabhupada: The difficulty is, in your country you are not poverty-stricken.

Tamala Krsna: No. We are making devotees.

Prabhupada: And here they are poverty-stricken. Generally they come, join this institution, those who are poverty-stricken, not willingly, "Oh, here is a good institution. We should join." That is very rarely.

Tamala Krsna: So what I think is that... But their children will be able to. Like these young boys here.

Prabhupada: (Bengali) The father-mother cannot maintain them, so entrust them Gaudiya Matha.

Tamala Krsna: Oh. That's what's happening here. That's how we're getting all these boys.

Prabhupada: Not that willingly they're coming, "Oh, it is good institution." That they do not. One or two, that way they are coming. Otherwise...

Jayapataka: But the others who are giving the children here, they are seeing that here the child can benefit.

Prabhupada: Yes, their fathers realize. But generally all helpless people, no caretaking at home, "So let me go to..."

Jayapataka: Up to now there's been no book distribution. Only thing people heard is by word of mouth. And actually the word of mouth won't convey a very broad understanding. "You can go and stay. Bas." But now with our book distribution...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jayapataka: ...we increase. Then, as intelligent people read your books, Srila Prabhupada, then they'll be convinced.

Prabhupada: They are coming. They're writing letters. So do this.

Tamala Krsna: The point that I was trying to bring out, Srila Prabhupada, is that as you were mentioning that you had desire to spend your money for printing books... The point I'm trying to bring out is that...

Prabhupada: Print books, sell, and expand.

Tamala Krsna: What I'm saying is that...

Prabhupada: Directly I do not want to spend money.

Tamala Krsna: What I'm saying is that that selling is determined by the number of distributors, and so far, we have very few of them here in India. That's the point I'm trying to make. Until we make more devotees here, the distribution is going to be to some extent limited.

Prabhupada: No. If you have sufficient nice stock, anywhere you go, you'll take up.

Tamala Krsna: But you have to have men who can offer the books.

Jayapataka: We'll have four traveling parties.

Prabhupada: Just like this Gitar Gan. Wherever we are going, selling.

Tamala Krsna: Imagine... All I'm trying to say is if we had more men, the distribution would increase tenfold, hundredfold.

Prabhupada: Men will come by distribution.

Tamala Krsna: Okay. I was just trying to raise that point.

Jayapataka: But the difficulty is that the men that are coming, they're not suitable for leading the party. We don't have any men coming, but theoretically when they come, the better class, they could distribute. But for leading would take several years. But their party leaders...

Prabhupada: It doesn't matter. Let them be leader.

Jayapataka: There are some distributors in the West that are very... They've been distributing five or six years, and they're very weak, and they want to come to India.

Prabhupada: Let them come. (end)