Evening Darsana

February 26, 1977, Mayapura
Prabhupada: So this... Very pleasant. Very pleasant. [break] And the other thing is the owner of the body. So which is important, the body or the owner of the body? You or I...(?) Which is important?
Guest (1) (Indian man): Actually, I have thought, without glorifying, because I did not want any material gain, but was my firm faith that what attracted me was the worth not of my personal ability but abilities of many other people.
Prabhupada: No, no. We have to understand the subject matter for which we are working. Personal benefit and extended personal benefit, there is no difference by quality. Generally they take it that "I am working for my family. If I work for my community, or if I work for my society..." Extended. So the quality does not change.
Guest (1): The quality is... But even dharma many come, the mind should not be idle. Even if you go...
Prabhupada: Mind cannot be idle. That is also foolishness.
Guest (1): Even if you go for religious seva, that you go for some benefit, not otherwise, either for yourself or for the world.
Prabhupada: But we must know what benefit is essential. Therefore I am trying to explain that there is body and there is the owner of the body. So which is important? There is this dress and the owner of the dress. If you simply take care of the dress and do not take care of the owner of the dress, do you think that is very good intelligence?
Guest (1): Sir, taking care of the society, of the countries, there is no difference?(?)
Prabhupada: Society means... Suppose you are taking care of your own dress and if you take care, all the men, sitting here, their dress, you become washerman. That's all. (laughter) This is your improvement. Now you are soaping your own dress, personal, and if you soap the dresses of all these people, then you are elevated to the position of a washerman. If you are satisfied to become a washerman, that is very good. But that is not very important thing. Real important thing is whether you should take care of the dress or the owner of the dress. That is to be... So people are interested to become washerman, but they are not interested that we have to take care of the owner of the dress. That is the... So therefore spiritual knowledge begins when you understand that this body is not important. The owner of the body is important. Then spiritual knowledge begins. Otherwise, simply to take care of one's own dress and to take care of many others' dress, that is not improvement.
Guest (2) (Indian man): But who was responsible for bringing this body into existence?
Prabhupada: You are. You are. You have selected your own dress.
Guest (2): The owner?
Prabhupada: Just like you are in white dress and he is in brown dress. That is your selection. You like this white dress; he likes that brown dress. So for the dress, you are responsible. That is you.
Guest (2): Who is "you"?
Prabhupada: You are... Therefore you do not know who you are.
Guest (2): That is what I am asking.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (2): And the owner of the body, is He responsible for this body also?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Guest (2): If that be so, then why should there be a conflict?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Guest (2): Why should there be a conflict between the two?
Prabhupada: Conflict?
Devotee: Conflict between the soul and the material body.
Prabhupada: There is no conflict. I am saying, talking, that you are, you are taking care of this dress. That's good. But simply for taking care of the dress if you forget yourself, then you are a foolish. That is my point.
Guest (2): But there is no conflict.
Prabhupada: There is no conflict.
Guest (2): Then we should not be afraid of this body also.
Prabhupada: But people are interested with the dress only. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Suppose you are driving one car. You are driving one car, and the car is also important, but you are not the car. But if you think that you are car, then you are a foolish. You have to take care of the car so far because it is plying, it is giving you service. You must keep in order very cleanse. That's very nice. But if you simply absorb in the service of the car, you don't take care of yourself.
Guest (2): The point is for ordinary men it is very difficult to conceive of a naked soul.
Prabhupada: So ordinary man is foolish. Learned man is intelligent
Guest (2): But it is very difficult to think of a naked soul.
Prabhupada: Naked, there is no question of... Naked soul is there, but you have no eyes to see it. Naked soul is there, but it is so small you cannot see it. The dimension of the naked soul is given in the sastra. Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. One ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So it is not possible to see by your these present eyes. But there is. There is no doubt about it.
Indian man: How is it opened, the eyes?
Prabhupada: By knowledge, therefore... So therefore Krsna giving you the knowledge. That you have to hear. Knowledge which you cannot experience by your senses at the present moment, you have to hear from the authority. Avan manasa-gocara. Which is beyond your mind and intelligence, you have to hear from the authority. Just like father. If one wants to know who is father, he cannot see it. He must know it from the authority-mother. Similarly, therefore called Vedic knowledge. Vedic knowledge means whatever is beyond the capacity of your senses, that you have to hear from the right source. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. And that is the teaching in the Bhagavad-gita. When the things became so complicated, Arjuna submitted to Krsna: sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. And then He taught him Bhagavad-gita. And the first teaching of Bhagavad-gita is this, that you are not this body.
dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
[Bg. 2.13]
Dhira, one has to become, has to become sober. Then he'll understand. And if he remains restless on the bodily platform, as the animals are... They cannot understand. They cannot understand. If you bring some dog and instruct the dog, "My dear dog, you are not this body," it is not possible. But dhira, if one is not dog—he is human being—he can teach. Therefore this word is used, dhira. Dhiras tatra na muhyati. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg. 2.13]. So that is the beginning of spiritual life.
Guest (2): What is dhira?
Prabhupada: Dhira means who is restful, not restless; dhira, whose brain is cool, sober. Just like a high-court judge. He is sitting simply, and the caparasi, he is busy. The caparasi gets, say, two hundred rupees, and he gets five thousand rupees. But he is doing nothing, a dhira, 'cause his importance is many, many times greater than the caparasi. So dhira means sober. If we become sober, not restless, then it is possible to understand. Dhiras tatra na muhyati. There are two classes: dhira and adhira. Adhira means always foolishly busy, and dhira means sober. He's trying to understand what is God. That is dhira.
Guest (1): That is actually what we have always taught, you know, to do it. Karmany evadhikaras te.
Prabhupada: Yes. Karmany eva...
Guest (1): (Sanskrit)
Prabhupada: No, simply you do not quote that verse. You first begin from ABCD. Dhiras tatra na muhyati. Unless you begin ABCD, you cannot go, immediately jump up to the M.A. class.
Guest (1): No, that karma itself is not something...
Prabhupada: No, why do you quote karma? Why you do not quote the beginning, the beginning of ABCD? If you have no knowledge of the ABCD, then karma... The monkey is also very busy, jumping, but as soon as a monkey comes, "Eh! Get out! Get out! Get out!" But he is thinking he's very busy. That, such kind of karma, will simply create disturbance. We must know what is karma. Karmano hy api boddhavyam. We should understand what is karma. So anyway...
Guest (1): We are very grateful to you for your very kind work, but we have got something to do for ourself.
Prabhupada: [break] ...therefore writing so many books. Bhagavad-gita As It Is we are presenting. The Sanskrit verses you have written? Oh, very good. Hm. Nice. You are studying Sanskrit?
Gopa-vrndesa: Yes, I work at the Press.
Jayatirtha: He works in Los Angeles at the Press.
Tamala Krsna: What is your name?
Gopa-vrndesa: Gopa-vrndesa.
Tamala Krsna: Gopa-vrndesa dasa is his name.
Prabhupada: Oh. Hm. Done very nice. Hm. Some others, they have opened account or...?
Tamala Krsna: Other people? I don't think anyone has had an opportunity yet. So far, it's simply been exchanging money. The rate... [break]
Prabhupada: It is said, imam rajarsayo viduh. (aside:) If there are outsiders, they should be given plate. [break] The dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. These words are there. Actually to understand this Krsna philosophy, it is not for ordinary person.
Brahmananda: What is the qualification for understanding?
Prabhupada: These things are there. Imam rajarsayo viduh. The rajarsi means the topmost class. Raja means government or the king. So simply the government man or the king will not suffice. He must be rsi, saintly person. So, topmost man in the society, at the same time, he must be saintly. That is the qualification of understanding Bhagavad-gita. Krsna uses this word, imam rajarsayo viduh.
Brahmananda: Sometimes we see that an Indian, he's living at least a more saintly life than the life that we have led, but sometimes we are more qualified to hear than some Indian men.
Prabhupada: Yes, because you have got qualification-dhira. What I say, you hear with patience. And those who are adhira, they cannot. Sometimes... Aye. (someone enters) You can come this side. [break] Two words is very important. One is, that in the beginning one must be dhira, not restless. Restlessness is for the animal, or a child. He is restless. He cannot understand. An animal, a cat and dog... Sometimes they remain very silent before the master, but not always. Their habit is not silent. So this understanding, that "I am not this body," is not possible for, say, restless person, that "I am not this body." It is specially mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita, dhira. He must not be a restless animal, always busy. Just like monkey. Monkey is always busy. But as soon as the monkey comes, everyone knows he is very busy. He can jump very nicely. And immediately they take a stick, "Get out! Get out! Get out!" Busy fool. Fool, if he remains little silent, so he does less harm. But if he is busy, he is more harmful. So this is the position at the present moment, that people are kept in the animal civilization and they are busy. So they are creating more harm. It is not for the good of the society. They are creating more harm. This dehatma-buddhi is the conception of the animals.
yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke
sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma ijya-dhih
yat-tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij
janesv abhijnesu sa eva go-kharah
[SB 10.84.13]
So this dehatma-buddhi, "I am this body," is very strong at the present. They think dehatma-buddhi, extended, is very good. And that I was speaking, that a person is taking care of his own body or own dress, but they say, "We shall not take care of my body but for others body also, my son's body, my grandson's body, my relative's body." So that means extending the activities of taking care of the dress. So that I said, that a washerman is taking care of many people's dress, but that does not mean that he is very elevated man. He is nothing but a washerman. But people are interested to take care of the dress. This body is described in the Bhagavad-gita as dress. Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. We are changing the dress. And so long we are interested with dress of the body, not of the body, so the person who has got this body will remain animal. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. So people are not prepared even to hear about this distinction, that "I am not this body; you are not this body." The modern civilization has trained up, educated people, in such a way that the more you think yourself, "I am this body—'I am American,' 'I am Indian,' 'I am brahmana,' 'I am this, I am that' "—and you feel and act like that and create trouble like that, then you are called civilized. Is it not? This is the defect of modern civilization. The more you keep yourself in the darkness of accepting this body as yourself-national feeling, social feeling, family feeling, community feeling-then... But we are speaking from a different platform. Our movement is Krsna consciousness. So Krsna begins His teaching from a different platform. He begins from the platform of the soul. Dhiras tatra na muhyati. His teaching to Arjuna begins, first of all convincing him that "You are not this body." And He's describing the nature of the soul-na jayate na mriyate va kadacin na hanyate—in so many ways, adahyo 'yam asosyo 'yam, so many. Find out this verse. Who will find out? Hm.
Tamala Krsna: What is the verse, Srila Prabhupada?
Brahmananda: 2.13. 2.20.
Tamala Krsna: 2.20. Shall I read tada kadacit?
Prabhupada: Hm? [break]
acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam
akledyo 'sosya eva ca
nityah sarva-gatah sthanur
acalo 'yam sanatanah
"This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, all-pervading, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same."
Prabhupada: Yes. This is the description of the soul. What is the first one?
Prabhupada: Asosyah.
Harikesa: Acchedyah—"unbreakable."
Prabhupada: Acchedyah, yes. Acchedyo 'yam. Now, chedya means which can be cut by... Just like this is wood. It can be cut by the saw. This can be separated. Then? Acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam. Adahyah. The wood can be burned. So it is denying, that "The soul cannot be cut and it cannot be burned." Then?
Prabhupada: Akledyah, that... The wood, if you put into the water, it will be moist. But it is not... Soul never becomes moist. That means the five elements—earth, water, air, fire, ether—all these five elements can be cut, can be moistened, can be burned, can be dried up. But he is giving negative definition that "Soul cannot be done like that." So therefore it is not fallible, material.
Indian (3): Will you preach to your Gita... [break]
Prabhupada: (Hindi) The people cannot accept... (laughs) Therefore I said, dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13].
Tamala Krsna: They're too restless.
Jayatirtha: Adhira.
Prabhupada: And therefore I say that education has been so wrongly given that they are restless like animals due to the modern civilization. The beginning of spiritual education they cannot accept. What they will make, further progress of spiritual life? Beginning, ABCD, they are so restless, they cannot take. This is the position. Therefore I'm speaking that it is meant for the dhira, for the rajarsi. Not for the men who are like animals. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Their bodily conception is so strong that they cannot hear even what is said. They are so dull. Mandah sumanda-matayo manda-bhagyah [SB 1.1.10].
Brahmananda: It seems now that it's the people from the West who want to hear. Why is that?
Prabhupada: Now, because they have now experience of the bodily comforts, and they have seen it that "Simply by bodily comfort we cannot be happy." They have come to this stage.
Lokanatha: It's fortune to take birth in the West now. It's fortunate to take birth in America or England? (laughter)
Prabhupada: Not all. (laughter) Not all. The fortunate, those who are so fortunate, they are now opposing me. The Western people, they are now opposing this movement, so they are not fortunate. So everywhere there are fortunate and unfortunate. But mostly in this age they are unfortunate. Either in the Western countries or in this country, they are unfortunate mostly. They cannot understand. In India at least those who are not very educated, mass of people, they believe transmigration of the soul. They very easily believe it because culture is based on that, purva-janma paro janma. They believe that "If I act sinfully, then I'll have to suffer next life, and because I did not do properly, therefore I am suffering in this life." Still they believe. But the so-called educated people, they are trying to set aside this. They say, "Superstition." And the leaders say that "India, giving more stress on the soul, not on the body, India's position is so degraded." This is the leaders' opinion. Big, big leaders, they think. Therefore the so-called leaders or learned scholars, they write notes on Bhagavad-gita, but they never give any idea of spiritual life. They utilize Bhagavad-gita for material end. This is going on. Just like our big leader, Gandhi. He was supposed to be very strict follower of Bhagavad-gita, and he has never instructed about spiritual life.
Narayana: Satsvarupa Maharaja was telling a story on the way back from the Ganges that you had said that Gandhi, he was supposed to be mahatma, but after he won victory, independence, by his activities, then they said, "Now you can stop meat-eating. You can stop cow slaughter throughout India." He says, "No, no. How can we do this? The Muhammadans, the Muslims, they are eating meat."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Narayana: So what kind of rajarsi is this? [break]
Prabhupada: There is heat and light. And as soon as after evening the sun is off, not from the sky but from our sight, there is darkness. So chi... This consciousness is the rays or shining of the soul. As soon as the soul is off from this body, the shining of the soul or consciousness is completely gone. Have you understood or not?
Indian (3): (Bengali?) [break]
Prabhupada: (Bengali) [break] People have been trained up not to become sober. Sober. Childish. And Vedic civilization is to teach the youngsters from the very beginning how to become sober-under restriction, under regulation, just to make him very sober. Brahmacari (sic:) guru-grhe vasan dantah. Danta means sober. And where is our pandita.
Lokanatha: Next room.
Prabhupada: Call him. [break] Find out from your dictionary what is the meaning of danta.
Prabhupada: Vasan danto guror hitam. The word is used, danta. Danta means sober. Children are generally restless, and the brahmacari-asrama means to train him how to become peaceful. That is the first training, not that to make him very good scholar in grammar. It is not said there. That is later on. First thing is how to make him sober. What is that? Danta?
Pradyumna: Danta, from verbal root, dam. "Tamed, broken in..."
Prabhupada: Tame. Tame. Just see.
Pradyumna: "Restrained..."
Prabhupada: That's it.
Pradyumna: "...subdued."
Prabhupada: This is the first training. Otherwise he'll not be able to advance.
Brahmananda: He'll be animal.
Tamala Krsna: The word tamed refers to animal.
Prabhupada: Yes. This, the right... So generally, from the very beginning, they are not tame, so even if he is in older age he's the same untrained animal, dog. A dog, old dog or new dog, the same. (laughs) It doesn't mean that a dog has become old, he's now tame, no. Tame, that is another thing. It has to be trained. And that is possible for the human being. You cannot make animal danta. That is not possible. So if a human being, from the very beginning of his life, he is not trained up to become restrained... There is another word?
Pradyumna: Yes, restrained. Subdued.
Prabhupada: Subdued. So then there is no chance. Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas:(?) "If you want to bend this bamboo, when it is green, you can do it. And if it is yellow, can't. It will break." Tas, tas. This is Bengali. If you take one yellow bamboo, to bend it, it will crack and make sound, "Tas, tas." But when it is green, you can bend it. Kancai no wale paca means green. (Bengali) Kancai no wale basa mas korbe tas tas.(?) First human civilization begins when you restrain the children not to become restless. This is the training. Brahmacari guru-grhe vasan danto guror hitam. This training is lacking. Therefore even in old age, the washerman business. I am bodily conscious, and I am training others also to become bodily conscious: "You feel like Indian," "You feel like American," "You feel like Englishman." This is education, the same dehatma-buddhi, that "I am this body," extended. The extended feeling of bodily consciousness, is that advancement? Is that advancement? The bodily consciousness is animalism. (aside:) Why you are taking? Huh? No, no. You keep it.
Devotee (1): Prabhupada, it's your pani. Devotee has put here.
Prabhupada: You keep that glass here. What is that? Devotee has...?
Guest (1): It's already open.
Prabhupada: Dab water? Oh. Here is not dab water? This is dab water.
Devotee (1): It's already opened, this dab.
Prabhupada: So we shall take it. This is Vedic civilization, that train the children how to become restrained, subdued, from the very beginning. Then he will take other education.
Brahmananda: But what is the process for subduing?
Prabhupada: That he should act simply for the benefit of the guru. This is the process. He has no personal interest. He'll go by the order of guru to beg alms from different householders and... They are innocent children. They'll go, ask, "Mother, give me some alms." And the mother also knows that "My child or his child, they are all neighbors' child. They will give." And whatever collection is there, he'll bring it to guru. So he does not claim that "I have collected. It is my property." No. It is guru's property. This is the first training. He works so hard to collect, but the property belongs to the guru. Guror hitam. This is first training. And that is the meaning of karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana. That gentleman was quoting this. He does not know what is the meaning. He... Karmany e... He is engaged to work, to collect. Just like you are doing that. You are, whole day you are working for the selling books, but you don't make a farthing even out of the profit. That is for the guror hitam, for the benefit of guru.
Jayadvaita: That is one of their objections, that "These people, young people, work all day... "
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jayadvaita: "...and they give all the money to the guru."
Prabhupada: You show. You show these quotes from the sastra. "This is our training, guror hitam, for the benefit of guru. So this is our sastra." [break] ...he comes, he should stay here. His name is Gopala.
Indian: (Bengali)
Prabhupada: [break]...two years ago. [break] ...eighty-one. [break] Oh, very nice. (Bengali) [break] Very nice. [break]...quired, but I remember this movement, the Godbrothers.(?) (Bengali) [break]
Hrdayananda: This is from Professor K. D. Vajpay, Tagore Professor and Head of the Department of Ancient Indian History, Culture and Archeology, Director, Excavation and Exploration, Chairman, the Numismatic Body of India... [break] "The poetic excellence of the Bhagavata has been recognized throughout the ages by eminent critics. It is gratifying to see that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has brought out an exquisite edition of this great work in several volumes. He has given the English rendering of the entire Purana and has very ably interpreted its contents. The lucid style of his writing is discernable on every page of the volumes, which have been illustrated suitably. The printing and get-up of the volumes are superb indeed. Swami Prabhupada has been known to me since his sojourn in Vrndavana when I was in charge of the Archaeological Museum, Mathura. He has been propagating krsna-bhakti movement in this country, in USA and Europe. It is to his credit that the Krsna consciousness movement has been made a worldwide discipline. He has been following the path of the ancient sages in serving the cause of Indian culture. The philosophy of humanity and all pervasive love of Indian culture has been effectively advanced by the Krsna consciousness movement, of which Swami Prabhupada is the very soul."
Devotees: Jaya Prabhupada!
Hrdayananda: "Besides his commentary on the Bhagavata Purana, Swamiji has written on the Upanisads, the Gita and on several other works of ancient bhakti lore. K. D. Vajpay."
Prabhupada: So when I went to Vrndavana, he made friendship with me. The Mathura Museum. He liked me very much. He remembered me.
Prabhupada: Yes. That was in 1954 or '55. Twenty years after.
Tamala Krsna: He still remembers.
Caru: Srila Prabhupada? This gentleman has just also taken two standing orders individually, and the Indian library party has just returned with thirty-two standing orders from Rajastan and two standing orders from North Bengal University.
Tamala Krsna: Thirty-two? Thirty-two more standing orders.
Prabhupada: From where?
Tamala Krsna: Rajastan.
Hrdayananda: And North Bengal University.
Caru: Took two standing orders today.
Tamala Krsna: This man took two himself, Mr. Vajpay.
Prabhupada: He has...?
Tamala Krsna: Taken two standing orders.
Hrdayananda: :For himself.
Caru: For the university.
Prabhupada: Sagara University. That is good.
Tamala Krsna: Thirty-two
Prabhupada: Scholars and universities... He's also big scholar, archaeologist, very big scholar. [break] ...beginning it was not so heavy. It is heavy. So even it is double weight, at that time it would cost thirty rupees. Now thirty into thirty times, nine...
Hrdayananda: Nine hundred.
Prabhupada: So according to that proportion it would have cost one thousand at the present moment, value. So why so much, four hundred dollars? Four hundred dollars means three thousand.
Tamala Krsna: See, the thing with this coin is that they did not mint very many copies.
Prabhupada: That's another thing.
Brahmananda: Becomes rare.
Tamala Krsna: Therefore it becomes rare.
Devotee (2): We checked it, Maharaja. There was four thousand of those minted in that year.
Tamala Krsna: Four thousand.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee (2): There were four thousand of these minted in the year when this one was minted.
Devotee (3): Rare.
Prabhupada: Thank you.
Devotees: Jaya. (end)

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