Conversation on Roof
February 14, 1977, Mayapura
Prabhupada: ... Son begotten by Lord Siva in the womb of Parvati, he'll be able to conquer over the demons. Karttikeya. You have heard the name of Karttikeya? So the, wife of Lord Siva, Daksayani, committed suicide in the Daksa-yajna. She heard blaspheming (of) her husband so immediately she gave up her body: "My father, you have given this body; therefore you are claiming so much from me. I give up this body." So he (she) gave up his (her) body, and the next birth she was born as the daughter of Himalaya king, Parvati. And after her death as the daughter of Daksa Maharaja, Lord Siva was engaged in meditation, very deep meditation. Now the problem was how to wake up Lord Siva from meditation and engage him again with Parvati. Nobody dared. So the Parvati was engaged to worship the genital of Lord Siva. He was in meditation, and he could not be awakened. Kalidasa Kavi is giving remark that "Here is dhira. Here is dhira, a young girl touching the genital of Lord Siva and he is not agitated." Adhira. Dhira means there is cause of agitation, but one is not agitated. That is called dhira. And adhira, everyone. There is cause of agitation in so many ways. Our, this movement, krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau, if we remain engaged in krsnotkirtana-gana-nartana-parau, then dhiradhira-jana-priyau. Both the dhira and adhira will enjoy this krsna-kirtana. This our movement, is for the dhira. And adhira also, if he joins this movement, even adhira also becomes dhira. This is the test. Dhiradhira-jana-priyau priya-karau. So we should not be adhira. That is the perfection of Krsna consciousness. Adhira means to remain in the material world. So long we are adhira, there is no chance of going back home, back to Godhead. This is the tapasya, to remain dhira. There are many causes of becoming adhira. But the causes may not disturb us. Then dhira. Dhiradhira-jana-priyau priya-karau. Haridasa Thakura, just like-dhira. There was cause, enough cause. He was young man, and a young prostitute, very beautiful, came at midnight and offered her body to Haridasa Thakura. He said, "Yes, very good proposal. You sit down. Let me finish my chanting. I shall enjoy." This is dhira. For three nights she tried and failed and she became surrendered. "Sir, this was my motive. I was sent by such and such person." Haridasa Thakura, "Yes, I knew all these things. I would have gone long ago, but you are innocent. Your business is this. You came. So I wanted to try to do some good to you. So better you have come to your senses. Now you chant Hare Krsna. I am leaving." So, dhira. This material world means so long we'll have a pinch of material desire, we'll have to take birth. Krsna will give us full facility to satisfy our senses in various ways. Ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg. 4.11]. Full facilities. "Enjoy. But if you want my advice, then sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam... [Bg. 18.66]." That is Krsna's advice. And that, Krsna is ready to give all facilities for material enjoyment in different grades of life. Beginning from Brahma down to the ant, everyone is engaged in this sense gratification. Punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Either you become a Brahma or you become Indra or Candra or human being or cat or dog or ant or insect—the same business: ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam, punah punah, again and again, the same business. So those who are engaged in the same business, so that is, Rsabhadeva said, "It is not good. What is the use of same business again and again. You are not disgusted?" To repeat the birth is very good business? To enter into the womb of some mother and remain there for some time in so packed up condition and suffering, to forget. But acts in such a way that he'll have to take birth again. Na sadhu manye. Rsabhadeva (says), "This is not good business." "Then what is wrong?" Just like some student in Hawaii University, "What is wrong if I become a dog?" This is education, university. They do not understand what is the wrong in this business of repetition of birth and death. So what is education? They cannot understand even that what is the suffering in birth and death. And repetition again and again and again, the same business, for ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam, eating, sleeping, sex, and protection. He cannot understand. Punah punas carvita-carva... Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah [SB 7.5.31]. Through external energy they are trying to be happy. What is that happiness? Durasaya. That's not happiness. That is misconception of happiness. So long you have to die and enter into the womb of a mother and again come out and again begin another chapter of life, what is this happiness? Hm? Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. No, this is the position. So Rsabhadeva says, "It is not good business." Na sadhu manye. Now what is the wrong there? Just like the Hawaii student. Wrong is there that you'll get a body and to get body means suffering, any body, whatever body you'll get. Yata atmano 'yam asann api. Although you can say, "All right, suffering, it will end with the body." Just like modern science. "Everything will be ended with the body." But not... It will appear in different way. But at least so long you live, you have to suffer. Asann api. The body will not endure, but the suffering will continue. That they do not understand. This is called mode of ignorance, mudha. So we should not lose the chance of ending our suffering. We must know what is the suffering. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha [Bg. 13.9]. Duhkha means suffering. And the real suffering is to take birth and then again die. And between birth and death there is old age and disease. Who can deny it? Where is the scientist. "Yes, we shall end all this nonsense." (chuckling) Nobody can end it. It is not possible. But they are trying. Durasaya. Hoping something which will never be fulfilled. Is it not? Their material adventure for mitigating suffering, will it be possible? (aside:) Bring some sugar cane, er, sugar candy. The mode of ignorance is very, very bad. Little more advance, mode of passion. Further advanced, mode of knowledge. Further advanced is spiritual position. Just see. This Krsna consciousness movement is trying to give the human society the best knowledge and they have combined together to oppose it. How mode of ignorance is prominent. The simple method is to hear about Krsna. That's it. Kirtanad eva krsnasya [SB 12.3.51]. Simple. We have given so many books. Always we should hear about Krsna, speak about Krsna. Then this base quality, ignorance and passion, will go. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh [SB 7.5.23]. So wherever you remain, you should continue this. Otherwise maya will attack. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam. So we should hold classes very repeatedly and preach. What is the complaint of the opposing party?
Brahmananda: That we are zombies.
Prabhupada: Jombies? What is that?
Brahmananda: We have no brain. We are like machine.
Prabhupada: We are machine?
Brahmananda: They say that we have no freedom of choice.
Prabhupada: Children has got also the same thing. Why the father stops? Children want to play. They do not like to go to school. Father does not like it. Is that father's attempt to check the child's freedom? Every father is doing that. The government is doing that. Why government is checking criminality? Hm? Why government chastising those who are criminals?
Tamala Krsna: What the criminal does is not good for himself nor for anyone else. So the government chastises them.
Prabhupada: What is the definition of criminality?
Prabhupada: Yes. And what is the law of government? The law of government is to give the citizen best life. So similarly, if we are trying to give them best life, why we should be checked? We are asking them, "No meat-eating, no gambling," so is that bad instruction?
Prabhupada: That is... Your criminal law will also criticize that "Why you are giving this instruction?" The two parties must be there, duality. If I accuse you of some criminality, you'll say, "Why you are checking my freedom?"
Tamala Krsna: Because they have forgotten God, they no longer understand what is best for themselves.
Prabhupada: They are like animals.
Hari-sauri: They don't know how to discriminate properly. Like that newspaper article, "The Hare Krsna Puzzle. Are they good or are they bad?"
Prabhupada: (laughs) Yes. Why do they take "puzzle?"
Bhavananda: You wanted that map of the pukura?
Prabhupada: Hm hm. [break] Cats also do not disturb. But everyone is fully fed and happy. The first problem is eating. So if you produce like tons, this corn alone can feed everyone. It is so nice food. Corn you can smash, and the powder portion you can use as flour, and the portion which is not powder, the hard portion, you can use as rice. And it is more nutritious than flour, wheat flour, and ordinary rice, and very cheap, cheaper than the ordinary rice and cheaper than the ordinary wheat. But you can utilize it—both dal, bhata. Vegetable and fat. From milk you get so much fat. Complete food.
Bhavananda: I was very impressed with that farm when I visited it. Nicest. I saw one little kitten in the barn, and there was milk coming out of the cow's milkbag and it was falling into the kitten's mouth.
Prabhupada: Just see. Such an important animal. And then, when she passes stool and urine, that is also nice. The milk is nutritious, the stool is useful; the urine is useful. Why this poor animal should be slaughtered? What kind of civilization? Your material desires, eating, sleeping, mating-fulfill it like a gentleman and save time and make spiritual advancement. This is to be introduced. Why you are inventing so strenuous work and spoil time, valuable time of human life? This we want to preach. Save time, be spiritually advanced, and other necessities, make it gentlemanly short-cut. If you save time, you can read all these literatures, understand what is value of life. Therefore, the literature here. Not for all. The brahmanas, educated. And they'll distribute the knowledge by speaking. Others, those who are less intelligent, simply by hearing, they will be guided. Just be convinced what kind of civilization we are trying to introduce. We should not be carried away. Then finished. In order to check others, if we become carried away, (laughing) then finish all business. To save them from being washed away by maya, if we become washed away, then where is the hope? Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara [Cc. Adi 9.41]. Be strong so that you may not be rascal, and then you can do; others you can check. Otherwise, it will be impossible. How it is possible? A man is drowning. If you are strong enough, you can save. But if you also become drowned, then how you'll save him? So the everything is there. Save yourself, save others. This is our Krsna consciousness movement. First of all save yourself; then try to save others. Or both things can go on simultaneously. The same example. If you want to save somebody who's drowning you must know that I may not be washed away. I have to remain strong; then I can save him." Everyone is presenting himself as the saver, savior. These politicians and these philanthropist, humanitarian, they have taken the slogan, "To serve the humanity..." What is that slogan? "Is to serve God?"
Bhavananda: "Service to man is service to God."
Prabhupada: He cannot save himself, he is serving man. Our mission is very great. People have not understood yet. Now here is a chance in the court. Let it be prolonged, and let it be threadbare judged. There's a good chance. Let it continue. And in the mode of defense we explain everything. Our defense pleader must be very expert, take instruction from us. We give nice, and he'll place before the court. It will be published in the paper.
Prabhupada: They must know what is the value of this mission, brainwashed.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted.
Prabhupada: And give him hint. This is wanted.
Prabhupada: We want that.
Tamala Krsna: He was taking up on his own so many civil rights cases. He's a fighter for individual freedom.
Prabhupada: Not only that. He should be convinced that "Here is a good mission for the human society."
Tamala Krsna: There are some very big persons now who have formed a group for the protection of the Hare Krsna movement. And these men have specifically stated that it must be only for the protection of the Hare Krsna movement, not others. They don't want to fight on behalf of any other movement. Specifically this movement. Because they are convinced of the philosophy of this movement.
Prabhupada: Yes that is good. No, others, they are all bogus.
Prabhupada: They're bogus.
Brahmananda: They were trying to decide what to call the name of this group, something like "Concerned Citizens for the Protection of Hare Krsna Devotees," something like that. So some of our own...
Prabhupada: No, no. "To protect the Human Rights." Keep this name. What is human right? That we can explain. The human right is: here is an opportunity to understand God. So this society is giving that knowledge. If you don't give the human being the right of understanding God, then he's animal. You keep him as animal. The animal doesn't require, neither it is capable of understanding what is God, what is his relationship with God, what is his duty. He cannot understand. It is the only human being who can understand. And if you keep him in ignorance like dogs and hogs, that's a great harm to the human society. He got the opportunity. You don't give him; you withdraw the opportunity. What kind of civilization? By nature's way you have come to the position of understanding why you are suffering, how this material nature is working. "I am eternal. Why I am undergoing birth and death?" If you do not understand this problem, then what is the value of this human life. Eating, sleeping, mating—that is done by the animals. And this modern civilization, keeping them in ignorance, that "Eating, sleeping, better style of eating, and that is advancement. And that is also not better style. Eating meat, keeping slaughterhouse—is that better style of eating?
Prabhupada: The tigers also do that. But you say, "Oh, we have got machine, cunning, (while the) tiger has to fight." This is their advancement of civilization.
Prabhupada: Acting like animals and going on as civilized. This is modern civilization.
Tamala Krsna: They're trying to find so many things out from our past. They are trying to find any devotees who have left the movement, and they're trying to ask them so many questions to try and find out something that is wrong. Now, one devotee came to us... He's not a devotee anymore, Manasvi.
Tamala Krsna: So this Manasvi came one day to see Adi-kesa and myself. You may recall in New York he had asked for a letter exonerating him. So you had told me to investigate. So I sent out a letter to three persons. Gurukrpa Maharaja and Srutakirti and Sukadeva. But none of them could find anything wrong with the accounts. Anyway, after a while I issued him one letter that at least to our... From our accounts we have not found anything wrong. Anyway, so I thought that would satisfy him. So recently he came, and now he says, "I am finding so much difficulty from my father-in-law. Because he lent me some money, now I have to pay back this money, and I'm having great difficulty, and I'm suffering on account of ISKCON has given me so much harassment against getting my citizenship here. So now the DA, the District Attorney has approached me, offering me money to speak things about this movement. Of course, I do not want to speak these things, but I am so much needing money." Blackmail. This man has become the blackest snake I have ever seen. So "I do not want to tell them anything." He told them everything he knows already. It's clear by the way he was talking that he's already spoken to them everything. So we told him that "We have nothing to hide. You may speak as much as you like. We have absolutely nothing to hide. So we cannot give you any money." Then again he called me on the telephone: "Now you have given me one letter which says that I was not doing anything wrong, but it is a fact that I have suffered so much. So my lawyer has advised me that I can sue the Society." So I pointed out to him that the letter I gave him was on ISKCON Inc. of New York letterhead, but the charges are against ISKCON Hawaii, which is a separate organization. So practically the letter has no value because I have no qualification for commenting on ISKCON Hawaii. I'm not an officer, nor do I have anything to do with them, so the letter is useless. I told him he can use it for... Well, anyway, I won't say... (laughter) Anyway. He's so black snake.
Prabhupada: Black snake, yes.
Tamala Krsna: This man stole from his father, and it is clear now that he joined this movement only to get an American woman and to go to America. I think he never had much intention to worship Krsna. He's eating meat, and his wife... Even when they came to America he ordered is wife, "Now you cook meat." He looks very different now. He looks like a raksasa.
Prabhupada: Hm. Feature is raksasa.
Tamala Krsna: So they're getting this information, but what can they do? They're getting so much information from these devotees who have left.
Prabhupada: What is that information?
Prabhupada: We are not perfect. We're trying to be perfect.
Tamala Krsna: It's just like the Christian church. The book may be very good, but if someone doesn't follow it doesn't mean their religion is bad.
Tamala Krsna: So they cannot condemn our religion. The books are perfect. (someone brings some prasada)
Prabhupada: Ne, one or two will do. Why so many? That's... So what benefit he has got, this Manasvi?
Tamala Krsna: Actually he is at a great loss. Any position he had here when he was a devotee, he has lost everything. [break]
Prabhupada: ...with this lantern? Electricity was introduced when we were boy, and that also not every house could provide electricity. Formerly they used to utilize gas, coal gas. If one man has got gaslight in his house, he is considered to be rich man. And gas... Mantle... Formerly electricity was... What is that? Carbon? Two carbon? In the morning it has to be changed. That Mahatma Gandhi Road was Harrison Road. So in our childhood, when the carbon would be changed, they would throw. We shall collect it.
Prabhupada: (laughs) No, no, play. "We have collected something." So electricity was introduced in our life when we were ten, twelve years old. Before that, there was no electricity.
Brahmananda: But still you were able to read.
Prabhupada: With this lantern. With this.
Brahmananda: Nowadays they think if there is no electricity then there can be no civilization.
Brahmananda: That is their standard.
Prabhupada: But still, you are forced to take help of this lantern when there is no electricity.
Prabhupada: What is the price of one tin kerosene?
Prabhupada: And one tin, how many liter?
Bhavananda: It depends on how many liters the tin holds. Five liters, twenty liter tin.
Prabhupada: So price has not increased very much.
Prabhupada: Because in our childhood we used to purchase one big canister, Monkey Brand. That was considered to be very first-class. Less smoke. Four rupees and two annas.
Bhavananda: But now it's difficult to get.
Prabhupada: Formerly they used to stock huge stock in Calcutta. Burma Sale. And new tin, if you exchange the container, then six annas less. Not very costly. Of course, in those days it was costly, taking consideration of the purchasing power of money. Four rupees, I remember, a few annas. My father did not like to purchase anything retail. For his daily necessity he'll purchase, he would purchase potato, one bag. So one bag means, maybe, one rupee, eight annas. (laughs) One anna per seer, kilo, I have purchased. Rice, fifteen mounds he will purchase. And what is the price? Three rupees, four annas. First-class rice. Coal, this coal, coke. Five annas per mound, purchase one cart load, fifteen mounds. The other day I was calculating. My father's income was, utmost, three hundred rupees per month in those days. And taking gold standard, my mother was purchasing gold from my cousin—he has gold shop-twenty rupees per tola, first-class gold. Now it is six hundred rupees per tola. [break] ...in those days thirty rupees per month. For thirty rupees, clerical staff, if you increase thirty times, how much it comes?
Prabhupada: Nine hundred rupees. So where the clerk is getting nine hundred rupees?
Prabhupada: Nobody, no clerk is getting nine hundred rupees. Maybe officers, superintendent, they are getting. So actually people have not increased their income. That means they have become poor. Thirty rupees' clerk is very good position in those days. And sixty rupees' clerk, that is superintendent. The things were cheap. And two hundred rupees, officer, big income. The high-court judges were getting four thousand rupees in those days. What they are getting now? I don't think their salary has increased. Maybe five thousand, six thousand. The governor was getting ten thousand. High-court judges were getting four thousand. And secretaries were getting five hundred to one thousand.
Tamala Krsna: People have become poor, poor materially and spiritually. Actually it's clear that the devotees are becoming wealthy materially and spiritually, and that is one of the reasons that these demons are so angry—because they see our opulence.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are surprised (laughs) that "These people do not do anything, and they're living so opulent?" They inquired in Los Angeles. You know that?
Prabhupada: Hm? Brahmananda you know that?
Brahmananda: Yes the neighbors.
Prabhupada: Yes. They were envious that "How do you live so opulently? You do not do anything? You have got so many cars. You eat so nicely. You live in such a nice house. And no anxiety." (laughs)
Brahmananda: That's why they think we are CIA, because they think we're getting money from somewhere, from government.
Prabhupada: Yes. Our Tirtha Maharaja accusing me that I have got two crores of rupees from American government to start this movement. (laughs) Even my Godbrother says, what to speak of others. Nobody is living such nice house, all of my Godbrothers. (laughs)
Prabhupada: They were unable. Neither they have got idea of aristocratically, how to live aristocratically. You won't find in any one of my Godbrothers a place like this. This is aristocratic. This is Indian aristocracy. Table-chair is not aristocratic. This is more comfortable. And cheap also.
Hari-sauri: If they saw somewhere like Detroit they'd be... If they saw the Detroit place then they'd really...
Brahmananda: Our temple in Detroit is very opulent.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is aristocratic house. You have seen it?
Brahmananda: Yes. Before purchasing we went to see.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is aristocratic house. They... Formerly, either Indian or American, Europe, aristocratic was the same—big, big rooms, very decorated, woman's quarter different, men's quarter different. No man can enter into woman's... Lavatory house, different; cooking house, different. This was Calcutta aristocracy. Those houses are now gone. No attached bathroom. The... Because it was service, how it can be attached bathroom? So they... A separate house, big house, only for passing stool. And if possible, a lake within the house. Aristocratic family, they would have lake within the house for using water.
Brahmananda: Within the courtyard?
Prabhupada: Not courtyard. Within the boundary, compound. The ramma badhi, vaihama badhi, merde badhi, purusdera badhi,(?) four different courtyards. And who cared for city life in those days? Nobody. Everyone was satisfied in village. General people, they would not come to city. Only servant class. What business they have got from the city? Because their main income from the field, krsi-go-raksya. What they have got to do with the city? In the city, big, big zamindars, personally they had nothing to do. They are managers and sircars(?) were collecting money. That's all. And their extra money, they're constructing Thakura Badhi,(?) temple, just like that Mullick's Thakura Badhi, and festival going on. That was aristocracy. They devoted their money for Krsna consciousness. What is that? You have seen the Bengali?
Prabhupada: Hm. He has got good engagement. [break] ...his magazine.
Hari-sauri: I was watching from the roof on Sunday. There were hundreds of visitors coming all through the day. And practically every group that went out, they were all... They had a magazine and a Bhagavanera Katha and Gitargana.
Prabhupada: Gitargana. Good field. And similarly, our Hindi. You have seen our Hindi?
Prabhupada: These are my old articles.
Prabhupada: I was reading. It is done nice.
Brahmananda: In New York I met one man who knew you from many years ago. He also saw you, I think, Mr. Chakravarti. He was associated with Gaudiya Matha as a young boy, and he said you would come to... There's one Purusottama Maharaja, or Paramahamsa Maharaja.
Brahmananda: He was in New York. He was coming to our temple regularly.
Prabhupada: Now what he is?
Brahmananda: He's studying some...
Brahmananda: ...conservation. He studied in London. He met you... You had invited him to come and stay in the temple. Sometimes he comes and stays overnight.
Prabhupada: I don't remember. He stays in New York? Oh, yes, yes. I remember. Hm.
Brahmananda: Our devotee stayed with him, this one girl who was kidnapped. The police were looking for her. So they arranged... He lives out on Long Island, he made arrangement for them to stay. The police were looking all over, but they couldn't find.
Prabhupada: She gave shelter, he gave?
Brahmananda: He gave shelter, Yes. Mother Silavati and this girl, they stayed with him. He very much admired mother Silavati's austerity, how she was just taking a little milk, little vegetable and nothing else but always engaged. He was impressed.
Prabhupada: Silavati is in New York?
Prabhupada: Where are her sons?
Prabhupada: No, she is very nice woman. From the beginning she is devotee. She is about fifty years old? Hm?
Brahmananda: She wears all white sari. Other women that age, they would be looking for another husband, another husband, another husband.
Prabhupada: This widow life is also brahmacari life. This printing is all right? At least for India it is very good.
Tamala Krsna: The book could be sold anywhere in the world. The most recent publications of his could be sold anywhere.
Prabhupada: Yes. (indistinct) Very good.
Brahmananda: It was just going to the printer.
Prabhupada: You have seen the printing?
Brahmananda: No, he was just laying it out, getting ready to give for printing.
Tamala Krsna: He is very ambitious to print all these books. He seems to be working on it day and night.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Tamala Krsna: It's a good team. Gargamuni is distributing, and Gopala is publishing. Gargamuni has so many standing orders.
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