April 2, 1977, Bombay
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So your answer to his question, "Do you consider the message of Jesus Christ to be universal?" You say yes.
Prabhupāda: No, all bogus. And going on in the name of Christian.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And he says he lived in our temples, but he is not satisfied with the Christian faith, but he is finding a great deal of satisfaction now living in our temples.
Prabhupāda: First of all become Christian, that you are following all the ten commandments. "Judge not others lest you be judged."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: His second question is, "Considering that the Bible describes Jesus as the savior of the people of God, not only of Israel but of every man's sins, does it not minimize his actual position to say that he is simply an avatāra, and does it not contradict the teachings of the Bible...?" First of all he says isn't that minimizing him to say that he's an avatāra?
Prabhupāda: We accept him as avatāra, śaktyāveśa-avatāra, empowered incarnation of God. That we accept.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. He says, "Like any other revealed scripture, the Bible's teachings are absolute, but are they to be understood literally or symbolically, and are they applicable for all men?"
Prabhupāda: Literally, not symbolically.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "What is the actual meaning of the sacrifice of the cross, Jesus dying on the cross?"
Prabhupāda: It has no meaning. The people were so rascal that they attempted to kill him. Because he was speaking of God. So we can understand the pollution of the then society, how intelligent they were. He had to deal with such rascals that he was speaking about God and the result is that they wanted to kill him first. He preached, "Thou shalt not kill," and they killed him first. This is their intelligence. Now people are advanced. Those doctrines, they are not (indistinct). That's all. The answer.
Prabhupāda: This is another sinful thought—Jesus has taken contract for ridding your sinful activities. That's a plea, what is called plea for the sinners, that they will continue acting sinfully, and Christ will take contract to counteract. This is most sinful conviction. Instead of stopping sinful activities, we have given contract to Jesus Christ to counteract it.
Prabhupāda: Then what is the use of his preaching? They will continue sinful activities, and Jesus Christ will take contract for saving them. How nonsense idea this is! Bhavānanda, do you think it is good idea?
Bhavānanda: Not a good idea, Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Nonsense rascals. These people should be immediately hanged. "Our religion is very good." What is that? "We cannot stop acting sinfully, and Christ has taken contract. He will save us."
Prabhupāda: How rascaldom it is! Nāmno balād pāpa-buddhiḥ. Nāma-aparādha. "I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, so no sinful action will be." It is like that. That means "I will continue my sinful activities and become a Christian, become a Vaiṣṇava, become a chanter."
Prabhupāda: See whether I am answering correct.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, you are answering very good. He gives a lot of quotations from the Bible. So I'll just read you two of them, and it is very easy to...
Prabhupāda: What is the use of giving me quotations from...? We are talking about practical things.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. The only point I was going to bring out was that it is clear how they misread the Bible. Just like one of them says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." But you pointed out that to believe means to follow his teachings. That they don't understand. They say, "We believe in Jesus," but they don't follow his teachings.
Prabhupāda: Then where is his belief? Where is the question of belief? Unless strictly follow the teachings, there is no question of belief. It is bogus principle.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, it's all... His next question is, "The essence of Christianism is to believe that Christ is our saviour and redeemer, but the final test of one's faith in Christ rests upon one's hope that he will come back down to earth from heaven to establish his glory and his realm of justice forever. Is this second advent of his to be taken as a symbolic one, or will he actually come back?"
Prabhupāda: I do not know. What does he say? What does he say? Explain.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, he quotes, "And then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of earth mourn and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." In other words... "And shall he send..." There is so many statements in the Bible to allude that Christ will come again.
Prabhupāda: What is the harm if he comes again?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically that is the whole basis of the Christians' faith is they are awaiting the day when Christ will come.
Prabhupāda: For the time being, you follow what he has said. Rather, what is the use of waiting for him?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, if you don't follow what he said, then even if he comes he won't take you. He says if that happens, if Christ comes back, what will be the position of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and His Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Nasty question.
Prabhupāda: That you shall see when he comes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: (laughs) That we shall see when he comes. Right. For the time being the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is here. Next question: "What is this end of the world?" Then he says, "In your..."
Prabhupāda: The world will be devastated, and everything material... Your body is there. It is being maintained, and it will be finished. Similarly, the whole world body will be done in the same way. There is no other way. It is created, it is maintained, and it is finished. Naśa. It is called naśa in Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: N-a-s-h-a. No-n-a-s.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says, "In your introduction to the Bhagavad-gītā you refer to Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianism and other religious faiths as sectarian designations, but isn't Kṛṣṇa consciousness just another kind of designation in order not to call it Kṛṣṇa-ism, another ism?"
Prabhupāda: No. That you have to understand later on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: "What is the difference between a pure Christian, or at least a sincere one, and a sincere devotee of Kṛṣṇa?"
Prabhupāda: No difference.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says he read a passage of the Bhaviṣya Mahā-Purāṇa written by Vyāsadeva three thousand years before Christ foretelling Jesus Christ's presence in the Himalayas in 78 of the Christian era, and his meeting with King Shalamoyi.(?) Are there any other prophecies in the Bhaviṣya Mahā-Purāṇa or in any other scriptures telling more accurately Jesus Christ's birthday?
Prabhupāda: Everything is accurate there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In that particular Purāṇa? He says he is sorry to take your very precious time, and he prays that you answer all of his questions, which you have done. So he thanks you very much for reading this letter and for your expected help. He asks one last question in a P.S., which I think is practically an important question. He says, "To practically follow Jesus Christ for a sincere searcher of the truth who does not recognize and accept the external manifestations of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, is it possible to attain love of God?" No.
Prabhupāda: Love of God means God's mercy. If God is pleased, He can do anything. So that pleasure of God can be awakened by love. This is called in Sanskrit kṛpā-siddhi. Perfection out of affection. Out of mercy.
Prabhupāda: No, that is not generally...
Prabhupāda: One must follow the regulative principles and refrain from sinful activities. Then it depends on Kṛṣṇa's mercy. You cannot force Him to give you mercy. That is not possible. Mercy is mercy. You have to do your duty, and the mercy depends upon Him.
Prabhupāda: All good news?
Prabhupāda: Hm. Nice place. Better than anywhere?
Guru dāsa: Wherever you are is a tīrtha. When you are there, it is better than any place. Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni. Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni. Where you are is...
Prabhupāda: Tīrthī-kurvanti tīrthāni. Svāntaḥ-sthena gadābhṛtā. One who keeps Kṛṣṇa always within the heart, wherever he goes, that is tīrtha. Everywhere Kṛṣṇa is there, but one who remembers, he is the yoginām api sarveṣāṁ mad-gatenāntar-ātmanā [Bg. 6.47]. It is very simple. People will not be... Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī mām. The human life is a boon... One can do this very easily. Māyā is so strong. Very easy thing. Even a child can do. Dehāntara vasthite siddhi.(?) Maintaining this body. All right. What is their business? How to maintain the... Huh? What is their aim in life? How to live comfortably. That's all. They do not know anything. So what is the Rādhā-Dāmodara arrangement?
Guru dāsa: There is no trouble there. I wanted to know if the Rādhā-Dāmodara file is in your almirah?
Prabhupāda: Which one?
Prabhupāda: What is the need of that?
Prabhupāda: All right. So I have arranged with the bank to pay.
Prabhupāda: So kanika(?) is offering?
Guru dāsa: Yes. Every day we put a nice photograph, that photograph that I took many years ago, in the frame.
Prabhupāda: Where is it put?
Prabhupāda: Which room?
Prabhupāda: So offering every day.
Prabhupāda: That's nice.
Guru dāsa: Do you want me to try and also get the rental of the room in the Nandagrāma temple, the old?
Prabhupāda: It is available?
Prabhupāda: Then not possible. Otherwise you could have taken.
Prabhupāda: Gopāla. Nowadays nobody is... I do not know what is the arrangement, but if it is available...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Probably you could get it. Somebody is probably paying fifteen rupees or twenty rupees a month for it.
Guru dāsa: He is very favorable, Gopāla. He has your old telegram receipts. He saves them. Just like a devotee would save anything you write, he has them also.
Prabhupāda: Did you talk with him?
Guru dāsa: Not about the rooms. I just know him. Because I didn't receive the instructions until yesterday.
Prabhupāda: He formerly offered me that "You deposit in the name of Deity ten thousand," he would give me the Sevā-kuñja. So at that time ten thousand was not..., dream for me. So let him remain as he is doing, but we can do something with. You can improve by repairing and everything.
Prabhupāda: That is main business.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, something is there. And Hindi books?
Prabhupāda: You have got small Hindi books?
Guru dāsa: Yes, yes. Some of those also are being distributed. Now also while I was in Delhi, on the way here, one ex-king approached a devotee about wanting to sell a place to us. He wanted to sell a house to our institution.
Prabhupāda: Where is it?
Guru dāsa: It is in Mount Abu. So they referred it to me. I went with the president of Delhi and I saw the house. And...
Prabhupāda: Mount Abu between Jaipur and Delhi?
Prabhupāda: Ahmedabad. Yes, yes.
Guru dāsa: It is a very high hill station, very clean air. And the house is sixty-three rooms. It's a mansion. And one hundred acres.
Prabhupāda: It will make nice scenery.
Prabhupāda: How to go up there?
Prabhupāda: No, to...
Prabhupāda: Zig-zag. How long it takes?
Prabhupāda: All through hills only?
Prabhupāda: By car.
Prabhupāda: By train.
Prabhupāda: So how we shall utilize it?
Prabhupāda: Now I am trapped. I am trapped here.
Prabhupāda: Is there any Deities?
Guru dāsa: No. Actually, my opinion is that it would be a great endeavor to take it, because the house needs also some repair. Although it is in good structural condition, it needs cleaning. But the only advantage is that there is no place left in Kali-yuga like it. Because it is such a beautiful mansion. And one hundred acres and a lake and in a hill, that's the advantage.
Prabhupāda: And what price does he want?
Prabhupāda: Not only you, others also, you can see first of all. If we can utilize, otherwise...
Prabhupāda: That you consider. Otherwise, why you should unnecessarily...?
Prabhupāda: Where are so much women? (laughter)
Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes, he wanted to pay me. What is the amount?
Guru dāsa: Four thousand five hundred dollars. He gave it to me because he trusts me. Then Poland, we're very excited about going. Now there are six men, including Umāpati, and in two weeks we are meeting in Germany, and we are going to chalk out our preaching program. I think it will be very good.
Prabhupāda: Now the time is favorable. The Russians are ordering our books. And there is a prediction, the Russians will be first-class theists.
Prabhupāda: Now they are atheists. They will become first-class theists. I think that there is... Just like Jagāi and Mādhāi. Jagāi and Mādhāi became great devotees. Vālmīki. Vālmīki was a dacoit. He became a... There are so many cases. Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu's movement is so superexcellent that we can turn the whole Russia to devotee. That is possible. They are searching after something solid and factual. They are harassed with this so-called Christian religion, Pope, and... That is a fact. They do not want anything humbug. But when they very critically read our literature, they will become devotee.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That they are realizing. And they have got respect for Indian culture. And because our books are always with reference to the old Sanskrit verse, and we are explaining that, they have got natural attraction. That is possible.
Guru dāsa: There are trade agreements between Poland and India too, now. So we may even be able to open up channels on cultural or trade basis from India from our side with Poland to give us a very established position in those countries.
Prabhupāda: These dollars has to be deposited in Bank of America. Other bank will not take.
Prabhupāda: Is that?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, it was done in the Central Bank, Māyāpura.
Prabhupāda: All right. So organize that party.
Prabhupāda: So you can keep it.
Prabhupāda: So you like this place?
Prabhupāda: I am unfit for anywhere. With great struggle we secured this place.
Guru dāsa: Actually, we have all struggled together for many years for so many things. And it is only by your grace that we were able to do it.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...Vṛndāvana affairs going?
Guru dāsa: Yes. I would just like to submit that I don't know what has been said, but my opinion about Akṣayānanda Swami is that he is a first-class devotee.
Prabhupāda: That I know. Therefore I am keeping him. He is not qualified manager, but he is first-class devotee, and he has no visa problem.
Prabhupāda: No. Therefore he has got some special qualification. So managerial, it is not always possible. But these things required. We want one man that he has no visa problem, and at the sane time devotee.
Guru dāsa: Yes. I went to the visa department. I just thought I should go. And I spoke to one man there. And I said, "Why is that we always have to spend five or six lakhs going and coming for no use? We are doing such good work, we could put that five or six lakhs into India." He said, "What can I do? I am under the law also." I said "The law is needing some change." He said "Your organization already changes the law." He said, "You never follow the rules." So I said "That is indicative that the law is not good." So then he said, "Let us see after the election." Anyway, I spoke to him that this is useless, that we spend five or six lakhs every year going and coming for no need.
Bhavānanda: We don't stay out. They tell us to leave, we leave, one week later we're back.
Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Everywhere they are doing this. (Sanskrit) The world is misled in this way by bad leaders. We are trying to get (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: No. Come on, take it, take some precious time, take it. Bring some money. (laughter) That is also precious.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You told the American GBC that you don't mind getting their letters of management when they are sending you one thousand dollars a day. You'll take the headache for that much.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, our movement is sublime, our position is also sublime. Kṛṣṇa is supplying everything what we need. We have got sublime books, philosophy. Now you arrange meetings of the scientist everywhere. We are, our party Dr. Svarūpa Dāmodara and others, they will go and speak something.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes, everywhere.
Prabhupāda: Science is for everyone. There is no such thing as Communist science. "Two plus two equal to four," that is both for the Communists and capitalists. That's a fact. Because I am Communist, I cannot say "Two plus two equal to five." It is four. So science means fact.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That theatrical group will also be popular in Communist countries. That drama group will also be popular.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, drama group also. That is from artistic side. And from scientific side. And gradually we are making Bombay as the headquarters. So occasionally you come and go, and if possible tackle these men and find money to be spent.
Prabhupāda: We are doing with so many temples. That is Indian property.
Prabhupāda: At least give permanent residence for one hundred men. Then we can manage.
Prabhupāda: Mahā-pāpī. But one pāpī replaced by is another pāpī. Yes. If they take our advice, then it can be...
Prabhupāda: I have no objection. He is good preacher in Bengal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He is famous as an avatāra there. They say that there is three avatāras of the age. One newspaper reporter reported that there are three avatāras of this age. First one is...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And I have seen practically, even if they don't regard him as an avatāra, I was amazed, Prabhupāda, that people come and they ask, "Where's Bhavānanda Goswami?" And they look everywhere for him, and then they all bow down. He is famous. Simply because he performed strict cātur-māsya, so many people took notice.
Guru dāsa: He has descended to give you massage. (Bhavānanda is massaging Śrīla Prabhupāda?) (laughter)
Bhavānanda: I think this side is no longer sore.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Striking on the bone, so for an old man striking on the bone is very harmful.
Prabhupāda: Thank you.
Guru dāsa: They all pray for you. They are all well-wishing. When they heard you were going to Manipur, one man said, "Manipur is saved." He said that.
Prabhupāda: Wherever there is Kṛṣṇa, that is saved. So when you are returning?
Guru dāsa: I will be leaving here tomorrow. Then I am going to Delhi to get visa from India side to Poland, because it is better. And then I'll go. So... (offers obeisances to Śrīla Prabhupāda) Thank you very much. [break]
Gargamuni: ...from one very important Hindi scholar, and he is Dr. V. P. Singh, M.A. Hindi, M.A. Sanskrit, Ph.D. literature, and he's the senior professor and head of the department of Hindi, and Dean of Faculty of Arts of Benares Hindi University at Benares. So he writes about your Hindi Bhāgavatam, which has just come out: "It gives me great pleasure to review these publications of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Especially I am appreciating this Hindi edition of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, complete with original Sanskrit text, word-for-word synonyms, and a marvelously lucid Hindi translation. In addition, having read thorough portions of the purports, which in my opinion reflect the vast erudition of the genius of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, I am discovering an unequaled body of literature in terms of scholastic quality and devotional impact both. The real meaning of such bhakti literature can only be disclosed by one who is a truly devotee and a saint. The evidence of these qualities in Swami Bhaktivedanta are highly apparent because of his great dedication and success in spreading the message of the Bhāgavata all over the world, and creating thousands of foreign bhaktas who aptly deserve the title of Vaiṣṇava Brāhmaṇa, due to their strict practice, devotion and learning."
Prabhupāda: Ah, very good.
Gargamuni: "I am very proud to have the acquaintance of such a saintly devotees of ISKCON, who have such an addition of the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam in our library. I have also...."
Prabhupāda: So he will get order anywhere if you present this.
Gargamuni: Yes. "I have also found the Hindi book Īśopaniṣad to be of excellent quality. I am hoping that every sincere seeker of truth and higher knowledge will find repose in the books of Swami Bhaktivedanta." Signed, V. P. Singh, Professor and Head of the Department of Hindi, Benares Hindu University.
Prabhupāda: It is a very important document. It is written nicely.
Gargamuni: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: And print it. Wherever you go, you'll get order.
Gargamuni: Yes. Especially now the new prime minister is emphasizing Hindi literature and the study of the Vedas.
Prabhupāda: And send him one copy.
Gargamuni: Oh, yes.
Prabhupāda: Request him that introduce this Hindi Bhāgavatam to all government officers.
Gargamuni: One of our parties have just returned, and they have secured many new orders from factories, Raukala Steel Factory in Raukala.
Prabhupāda: In Hindi?
Gargamuni: No, Hindi they did not have. They did not have any sample copies. This was done by another party who were in U.P.
Prabhupāda: Very good.
Girirāja: I spoke to Mr. Rajda on the telephone this morning. So he has already spoken to the Prime Minister about your meeting, and the Prime Minister gladly accepted.
Girirāja: So he told him that you weren't able to come to Delhi now. So I told him that he should again speak to him that when he comes to Bombay, he can meet you here. So Mr. Rajda said that there is no difficulty in arranging that, and that he would speak to the Prime Minister today.
Prabhupāda: He wants me to meet there in Delhi.
Girirāja: No. He is going to arrange for the Prime Minister to meet you here in Bombay, at Juhu.
Prabhupāda: Immediately one copy send to Mr. Rajda.
Girirāja: Now Mr. Rajda is coming tomorrow for one day.
Prabhupāda: So let him meet me, appoint him, give him some time. Invite him for prasādam. With his associates.
Girirāja: He is coming in the morning and leaving in the evening.
Prabhupāda: So daytime he can take...
Girirāja: Well, see he's coming because he is a leader in the municipal corporation, and tomorrow they are electing the new mayor. So I was thinking that probably on the way to the airport in the evening we could invite him to stop here.
Girirāja: Otherwise, he is coming back on the 8th to spend about a week here.
Girirāja: But he is very enthusiastic.
Prabhupāda: Very good. He is a good boy.
Girirāja: He said, "I am all out for this movement. I am all out for Swami Prabhupāda."
Prabhupāda: Send him this remark from the chief minister. He'll so much appreciate.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is appreciating this movement. Gradually, they will appreciate.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we saved twenty-five copies of that Times of India article about the court case in New York. Is there something you want done with those twenty-five articles?
Prabhupāda: Some of them should be sent to the municipal chairman, Vṛndāvana.
Gargamuni: They should be used by our preachers, 'cause many times we have met persons who have said, "I heard you have been thrown out of America." A lot of people say that.
Gargamuni: So they should be used to show, "No, we are bona fide religion."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: And also they can be sent to the people who you got help from, Prabhupāda. I think you got help from some people in Vṛndāvana like that municipal...
Prabhupāda: That I say.
Girirāja: I am making a block that will reproduce exactly the article as it appears in the paper that had the...
Gargamuni: Send it as a thank—you note.
Girirāja: Yes, I am going to. I am going to send it to all the members.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about to other people around India who we don't have their names? We could have Ādi-keśava do that. He should actually do that.
Girirāja: Yeah. Because Prabhupāda said that it should be sent to all the parents of devotees. We could send one original to Rāmeśvara...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, Ādi-keśava Mahārāja has at least a couple hundred letters from people in groups in India, from Vṛndāvana, all over the country. I think I could send him a copy of this article and he could send a thank—you letter along with this article to each of them, thanking them for their help. They appreciate it, coming from America, that the president of the New York center himself wrote them.
Gargamuni: I just returned from Calcutta, and they are expecting you to arrive tomorrow morning by plane.
Gargamuni: In Calcutta.
Gargamuni: Because they said that when you left Calcutta that you would come back within two weeks, on April 4th, to Calcutta.
Prabhupāda: Well, because I was going to Manipur.
Gargamuni: So I told them that as far as I know there was no plan of Your Divine Grace...
Prabhupāda: No, because Manipur has not supplied. Otherwise, it was program that I shall come back, and after I shall go to Manipur.
Gargamuni: And Upendra is there, so I told him that he should come. Jayapatākā said that the government has approved in principle of the land acquisitions. They would acquire land slowly.
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.
Gargamuni: Not all at once. But they would acquire this land and if they see that it is being used nicely, then they will give another...
Prabhupāda: That doesn't matter.
Gargamuni: He said he'll be sending you a letter.
Prabhupāda: This is a great, nice, very... Activities are nice.
Gargamuni: It's auspicious because this book has just come out and already there is great appreciation.
Prabhupāda: Those who are after Hindi read. These professional Bhāgavata reader, what do they know about Bhāgavata? Rāsa-līlā, that's all. Kṛṣṇa is kissing Rādhārāṇī. Bas. That's all. And people take it that it is a sex literature. Vivekananda has said. This rascal Vivekananda has said that Vaiṣṇava religion is sexism, because they see sahajiyās in Vṛndāvana and Navadvīpa. The whole thing was spoiled.
Prabhupāda: Whole Vṛndāvana is compact of sahajiyās. They'll... Our temple is there now. Here, this certification may be printed in a block letter, and you can, kept in our entrance of Vṛndāvana temple. People will read it. Is it not good?
Gargamuni: Can I get a block tomorrow and hang it up?
Prabhupāda: Similarly, the judgment of high-court, that should be also printed.
Gargamuni: The chief justice.
Prabhupāda: And respectable gentlemen will understand what is this temple. It is not this ordinary.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Hyderabad they can do the same. So you are going to get copies made and make a block?
Gargamuni: Oh, yeah, I am going to send a man down today.
Gargamuni: Yeah, for printing. You mean... What kind of a block?
Gargamuni: A printing block, because I am going to send these to all our colleges.
Prabhupāda: So how many copies you have printed?
Prabhupāda: You have to print more copies, at least fifty thousand.
Gargamuni: Gopāla has only made soft cover, but the libraries won't take soft cover, so I have asked him to make hardbound also.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Do it.
Gargamuni: Yeah, you have to. They won't take softbound.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In America everything we print, we also have to consider special printings for the libraries and standing orders.
Gargamuni: The man at the Sampurnanand Sanskrit Library at BHU, when he saw the Hindi Bhāgavatam, he said, "I will order fifty sets for our various sub-libraries." He said, "This is wonderful." Because the only Hindi Bhāgavatam is that Gītā Press, which is useless. There is no commentary, it is so unattractive.
Prabhupāda: Prepared by nondevotees. How you can expect? Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti [Bg. 18.55]. Without being devotee, who will understand Bhāgavatam? It is not so easy. Big, big paṇḍitas, they cannot understand Bhāgavatam even.
Gargamuni: In BHU all the scholars had great eagerness for this Bhāgavatam Hindi, because it is the only one.
Gargamuni: No, there is only Gītā Press.
Gargamuni: That's all.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is rubbish. They do not what is Bhāgavata. How they will translate? Professional translation is not. Bhāgavata-pado giya bhāgavata sthāne.(?) "Whose life is Bhāgavata, go there and read Bhāgavata." That is the recommendation. That is the order of Svarūpa Dāmodara Gosvāmī. Ordinary men, what they will understand, Bhāgavata? Bhāgavata is not for ordinary men. Paramo nirmatsarāṇāṁ satāṁ vāstavam vastu vedyam atra [SB 1.1.2]. In the beginning it is said unless one is paramahaṁsa, he cannot understand. Paramo nirmatsarāṇām.
Prabhupāda: Oh, that's nice.
Gargamuni: But Jayapatākā is asking for Bhavānanda to come and give extra inspiration.
Prabhupāda: So Bhavānanda can go. For my bodily comforts, preaching should not suffer. This can be done somebody else. Preaching is our first program.
Bhavānanda: Śrīla Prabhupāda, we have decided last night that when Upendra comes... We sent them a telegram. I'll train him up for a few days and then...
Prabhupāda: That's all, that's all. That will be very nice. So call him. You are now popular in Bengal, avatāra. (laughter)
Gargamuni: That's common in Bengal. I was seeing in Bangladesh many men were bringing this pamphlet saying, "Oh, this man is the incarnation of Nitāi and Gaura. This man is the incarnation of..."
Prabhupāda: Very good. Keep that position. When you meet them, "No, no, I am servant of Nitāi-Gaura."
Gargamuni: No, that wasn't referring to myself. They were bringing pamphlets of others.
Gargamuni: I was trying to point out that it is common to set up some avatāra, some man as avatāra. They also called us Gaura-Nitāi in Bangladesh, myself and Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa, because they never saw white sādhus before in their lives. And because of our light complexion, they referred us to as Gaura-Nitāi.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So ask Upendra to come. Let him be trained up.
Bhavānanda: Kṣīra-corā-gopīnātha is going to put some of your lectures in English script Bengali so I can give lectures. Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They will be very eager to hear from you Bengali. Yes. Now Kṛṣṇa is giving us so much opportunities. Utilize it. And be steady in your character, in your behavior, in our regulative principles. Then the spiritual strength will be there, and it will be... There is no doubt. Kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nahe nāma-pracāra. You must draw the spiritual substance. That is unlimited. Teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmi tam [Bg. 10.10]. Immediately. He can make everything possible.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Give him good reception.
Girirāja: Actually, I was thinking, after he comes on the 8th, he is going back again on the 14th.
Prabhupāda: Immediately inform Vṛndāvana, our Akṣayānanda, that this man should be very well received.
Girirāja: I was thinking that unless I go and bring him, he might be too busy with the political affairs.
Prabhupāda: So what you are to go? Where you want to go?
Girirāja: So what I was thinking, if you agree, is to go to Delhi for a few days, and he could introduce me to the pious members of Parliament, and then we could organize a whole group, and I could bring them there.
Prabhupāda: Do the needful. Go. At least, in India, there must be this spiritual institution. The whole world may take advantage of it. What is this cats' and dogs' race civilization? Is that civilization? Here is civilization, Bhagavad-gītā. Basic principles of civilization. So India should maintain this. People may... There are so many big universities. A student may go or may not go, but the university must be maintained. Because there is no student, therefore university closed. No. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness institution must be maintained for the benefit of the whole world. Mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. They do not know how nature's law is working.
Gargamuni: These breezes are very nice here, better than, I think, in Māyāpura. Many breezes.
Prabhupāda: The sea breeze.
Gargamuni: There no, it is hot. This is very good.
Prabhupāda: Which house?
Prabhupāda: No. Sometimes there is nasty breezes coming.
Gargamuni: That still comes. Every morning at six o'clock we wait for that. Guru dāsa was thinking of writing letters to the municipality, signing it in foreign names, that "I am a tourist staying in a hotel, and this smell is coming. Something should be done." Because they should have a pipe back there instead of a river. One of those big round pipes.
Prabhupāda: They must doing something.
Gargamuni: The thunder showers have started in Bengal now. So it is not so hot when I was there.
Gargamuni: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, do you think that you'll be lecturing this evening? I mean, are people going to be here or at the pandal?
Girirāja: I think most people will be at the pandal today. Maybe we could send out invitations and make publicity for next Sunday.
Interview with Mr. Koshi
(Asst. Editor of The Current Weekly)
April 5, 1977, Bombay
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, this is Mr. B. T. Koshi. He is the assistant editor of The Current, which is a weekly news magazine.
Prabhupāda: He can sit.
Mr. Koshi: I have come from the material world. Totally different from what is the situation outside. You have been in the news at the festival. I decided to try and see you. There is a lot of curiosity as to what the movement is about. Not only here, but abroad. A lot of controversy. I would like to know how this movement started, what gave you the idea. What is the background? And why it was called the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement? Is it a return to something very fundamental?
Prabhupāda: This movement is started to give something to the whole human society about the real culture. And that is India's prerogative. India can give it. The whole world is in darkness of ignorance. So India was expected after independence to give the real knowledge. But instead of giving the real knowledge, they became victimized by their glimmer of material civilization. So I wanted that such a magnificent gift from the side of India, it shall remain uncontributed to the world, let me try. This is my... This culture is based on Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is named Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In India practically every home, every person, every leader, they read Bhagavad-gītā. But unfortunately they do not understand the human life. Because in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gītā we find Kṛṣṇa says,
dehino 'smin yathā dehe
kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā
dhīras tatra na muhyati
This is beginning. When Kṛṣṇa began to instruct, began instructing Arjuna about Bhagavad-gītā, the first chastisement was given to Arjuna that "You are talking like a paṇḍita, but you are a rascal."
Mr. Koshi: Because you are a...?
Prabhupāda: "Because you are a rascal. Because you are giving stress on the body." Aśocyān anvaśocas tvam [Bg. 2.11]. The body is a lump of matter. It is not the subject matter for discussing or lamenting. It is a lump of matter. Now this, what is called...
Mr. Koshi: Machine. Tape recorder.
Prabhupāda: This machine, so long it is working, it is valuable. If it does not work, what is the value? Throw it out. Similarly, the machine is not important, but so long it is working, it is important. So we must know what is that working principle. That is knowledge. So generally, people, they are embarrassed with the machine, this body. But they do not know what the power in the machine. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. Koshi: Hm.
Prabhupāda: This is a wrong type of civilization. A civilization of ignorance. Animal civilization. Just like animals: the cat, the dog, the cow, he does not know what is the working principle in the body. So he is jumping and running as a dog, as a cat, and he appears to be very busy. Similarly, the modern civilization, they are jumping and running like cats and dogs, but does not know what is the principle which is helping him to jump and run. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Asmin dehe dehinaḥ. The active principle is there within this body. So who knows it? Ask big, big leaders, big, big scholars of Bhagavad-gītā. They are concerned with this body. Nobody is interested with the active principle within the body. So what do they know about Bhagavad-gītā? The basic principle is wrong. Kṛṣṇa is speaking on the subject matter within the body, the active principle. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. Asmin dehe. The dehī, the owner of the body, is there. Who knows it? Tell me. This is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā lesson. But one does not know that what is the important thing in this body. Not this machine, but the power that is driving the machine. And still, they are proud of becoming scholar on Bhagavad-gītā, knower of Bhagavad-gītā and so on, so on. This is going on. This misconception. They are themselves in ignorance, and they are keeping their followers in ignorance. Therefore no benefit has been derived from this culture of Bhagavad-gītā. We wanted to give it to the world. This is the purpose.
Mr. Koshi: This is what you have tried to do. Why is it necessary to concentrate on this name, "Kṛṣṇa"?
Prabhupāda: First of all, you understand what is the importance of this movement. Then you will understand Kṛṣṇa. First of all, you have to know what is the important things are there. One thing is this bodily machine and the other thing is the power within the machine.
Mr. Koshi: The driving force.
Prabhupāda: But you do not know what is the power. You are simply embarrassed with the machine. So just try to understand your position in ignorance. As soon as the power within machine is gone, it is useless. Everything is thrown away, a lump of matter. So who is culturing higher...
Mr. Koshi: (Hindi) Śrīla Prabhupāda, Bhaktivedanta Prabhupāda. (introduces Indian to Śrīla Prabhupāda)
Prabhupāda: Betiye, sit down.
Indian (1): No, he has come to pay respect to you.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But wait. Let him come in. The point is that if you keep yourself in ignorance, then what is the use of advancing further? If your basic principle is calculated wrong, then whatever you construct on that wrong background, everything is wrong. One mistake done in the beginning, then plus minus, plus minus, ultimately it is wrong. So our Kṛṣṇa consciousness means that unless you take seriously what Kṛṣṇa says, you are simply jumping like animals. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. First of all, you understand your position, what Kṛṣṇa says. Then go ahead. You do not understand the basic principle what Kṛṣṇa says and you are declaring yourself, "I am reading Bhagavad-gītā and Bhagavad-gītā is my life," and so on.
Mr. Koshi: Would you say that this is a return to this Bhagavad-gītā?
Prabhupāda: Yes. This culture is purely Bhagavad-gītā. Therefore we have given the name "Kṛṣṇa consciousness." What Kṛṣṇa said, take it.
Mr. Koshi: Is it somewhat similar to the... [break]
Prabhupāda: We are preaching what Kṛṣṇa says. We do not mind what others says. There may be similarities, there may not be similarities. It doesn't matter. But we are concerned with the instruction that Kṛṣṇa says. I haven't got to tally what Kṛṣṇa says and what you say. I have no business to do that. We are simply concerned what Kṛṣṇa says. Now if you like, you can take it. If you don't like, you take your own. But we are speaking only on Kṛṣṇa. So our lamentable subject matter, subject is that India has got so great exalted knowledge on Bhagavad-gītā, and the government has got Cultural Department, and all leaders, at least they are supposed to give support to Bhagavad-gītā. Why they are not taking seriously and give it to the...? And they are taking it seriously. My single attempt to preach the teachings of Bhagavad-gītā as it is, they are accepting it all over the world. Why not give it an organized way. All the Indian leaders, they are simply imitating jumping like the Western people.
Mr. Koshi: But there will be the accusation that being a secular state...
Prabhupāda: Secular, pecular this is... Knowledge is knowledge. We cannot compromise. Knowledge is knowledge. It cannot be changed because there is secular, pecular. Knowledge is knowledge. Just like this asmin dehe dehino 'smin. What is secular knowledge? It is knowledge for everyone. Within this body the active principle is there. And the secular knowledge says "No, no, the active principle is outside." We have to accept it? Knowledge is knowledge. Two plus two is equal to everyone, everywhere. It is four.
Mr. Koshi: But those who do not subscribe to this process...
Prabhupāda: Who do not subscribe, if they say "Five," shall we have to take it?
Mr. Koshi: No, I agree. I agree.
Prabhupāda: Then why...? What is this? This is nonsense. Two plus two equal to four. It will be accepted by everyone. Every scientist, every mathematician. And if by vote, secular state, "It is five" or "It is six," shall we have to accept it? We have to accept knowledge as it is. Why you say secular or not secular?
Mr. Koshi: No, I think it is a question of accepting a concept of...
Prabhupāda: No concept. It is science. It is not... Try to understand this. "Two plus two" is science. It is not concept.
Mr. Koshi: I know that. But let us look at it this way. You are saying that Kṛṣṇa is important, but somebody else says that somebody else is important.
Prabhupāda: If Kṛṣṇa is important, why shall He not be taken?
Mr. Koshi: If somebody else says that Jack is important...
Prabhupāda: Somebody. What is that somebody? Is he a scientist? Is he a philosopher? Is he advanced? Any loafer class man say anything.
Mr. Koshi: There are scholars from other religions also.
Prabhupāda: Then you do not understand the standpoint. We have to understand the active principle of life. So why other scholars will disagree? Then he is not a scholar. Let us come to the scientific point of view. We have to understand what is the active principle within this machine. It is equally important to all scholars. That we have to preach. They may say that "Your Kṛṣṇa; our this." No. That knowledge Kṛṣṇa is giving for everyone. And it is accepted by everyone. They are Christians. How they are accepting? I am not bribing them.
Mr. Koshi: They are all nationalities?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Any scientific man, any advanced in education...
Mr. Koshi: Have you put any conditions?
Prabhupāda: No conditions. You try to understand. Within this body the active principle is there. Where is condition? You try to understand if you have knowledge.
Mr. Koshi: But a renunciation of something?
Prabhupāda: Again why you are coming to renunciation? First of all come to the knowledge. First of all accept that within this body there is the active principle. Then whether it is required renunciation, no renunciation, that we shall discuss later on. First of all, we have to understand, as Kṛṣṇa says in the very beginning, that asmin dehe dehī. Within this body, there is the owner of the body. First of all try to understand. He is speaking on that subject matter. Dehī. Not on the deha. People should understand first of all this science. Then talk of other things. When we say "Two plus two equal to four," no scholar will deny it. "Yes, it is four." Nobody, no rascal will say, "No, it is five or three." Nobody will disagree, if it is science, if it is mathematics. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa says within this body, the owner of the body. Who will deny it? Let them accept it. Then we shall discuss what is that owner, what is the nature of that owner. First of all let them accept it. They are accepting the machine as everything. Do you agree or not?
Mr. Koshi: Yeah, but who is the owner?
Prabhupāda: Ah. Yes. Machine, if you take the importance of the machine and not the machine driver, then what is your knowledge? If a dog is thinking "I am a bulldog, gow gow," and if a man is thinking "I am Indian, gow gow," what is the difference? He is embarrassed with the machine body, and he is also embarrassed with the machine body. The dog is jumping, monkey is jumping with a machine body, and if we also imitate jumping like the dog and the monkey, so what is the difference? The human being is to understand that "I am not this body." That is the first knowledge. That is the first principle.
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
That is brahma-jñāna. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. So these things are here in India. Instead of distributing, understanding these things, we are jumping like cats and dogs, like the Western civilization. Anthill and four-wheel dog race. These big, big buildings, they are like anthill. You know anthill? The ant also can make a big stack of earth. Does it mean it is civilization to compete with the ant? Or run with the dog? Sometimes if a car is driving, and dog is running, it is a competition and the dog running. Is that civilization? Without understanding, the whole thing is going on, running on like that. Why India should imitate? India has got so much great exalted knowledge given by Kṛṣṇa. India should learn it and teach it to the whole world. That is India's business. Paropakāra. And that is being done in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Very important movement, very scientific movement. So do not neglect it. Come and join, learn it and give it to the whole world. This is the perfect knowledge, paropakāra. Not to imitate there and jump like monkeys and cats and dogs. This is not good.
Mr. Koshi: All sorts of lessons are going out.
Prabhupāda: All sorts may go, but you must know the real message, that within this machine the owner of the machine, the driver of the machine... All sorts of... There are three thousand parts in a motorcar. You have all sorts of knowledge about the parts of the car, and you do not know who is driving, then what is this knowledge? Every paper, every learned man, every..., every should take it seriously and implement it. It is not meant for everyone. Still, there must be an institution to teach this, I mean, the highest standard of knowledge to the human being. Why they should simply jump like cats and dogs? This is our mission. So don't try to imitate cats and dogs, but be human being. Understand what is your position and cultivate that knowledge. That is nature's way. The evolutionary process, after 8,400,000 species of life, it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that if you don't understand this opportunity, then nivartante mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani [Bg. 9.3]. Find out this verse. Aprāpya mām. Aśraddadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyāsya parantapa. "Those who are not interested in the teachings of the Bhagavad-gītā, the result will be he will not understand Me, God, and he will again return to the cycle of birth and death."
Mr. Koshi: But how many people have the capability. As you say, they are jumping up and down.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is not for... You see. When we talk of diamond, it does not mean that everyone will be able to purchase it. But there must be the diamond. Because there is no customer, very many customer, diamond should be abolished?
Mr. Koshi: No.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. Similarly, how many men will understand or not understand, that is not the consideration. But we have got in India such exalted knowledge. We must cultivate and distribute knowledge as far as possible. It is our duty. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's mission. Bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya-janma haila yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. You understand Bengali?
Mr. Koshi: No.
Prabhupāda: "Anyone who has taken birth as human being in India, janma sārthaka kari' kara para-upakāra, first of all make your life successful by understanding what is life, and then distribute." This is Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You have got this asset. You have rejected.
Mr. Koshi: You started this ten years ago. But why is it that when you were recognized..., you were recognized by others and not in this country?
Prabhupāda: Huh? Because they are so poor that they cannot purchase diamond. But diamond must be there. They are so poor-hearted, their education has been so poorly given that they cannot understand.
Mr. Koshi: Poorly given.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That "You are this body, jump like cats and dogs," that's all. What is nationalism? This is, that "You are this body. Jump like cats and dogs." A group, as a group of crows gather together, caw caw caw caw. That has been taught. Make group and crow.
Mr. Koshi: Something is wrong.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You don't find this word "nationalism" in the Bhagavad-gītā. You don't find it. Can you find out this word? These are all borrowed words.
Mr. Koshi: And what is your alternative?
Prabhupāda: Huh? What is that? We are preaching internationalism, everyone welcome. Come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is being done. Real United Nations. Here is Christian, here is Jew, here is African, here is Muhammadan, everything. Worldwide. That is real United Nations. They have no conception. If they would thought that "I am American," then why he is after a poor Indian man? Indians are known outside India as poverty-stricken, and that's a fact. So why he should come to the person born of poverty-stricken nation? But actually we are not poverty-stricken. If we cultivate our own standard of knowledge, Bhagavad-gītā, then we are the richest and we can give the whole world the gift. That should be... And they will welcome. That will be glorified if they accept. Just see. This is our... I am trying for that.
Mr. Koshi: How are you trying?
Prabhupāda: India is not poverty-stricken. India can give him something which will glorify your life. It is meant... I do not say India is poverty-stricken. I say India is the richest. Believe it, take it. So we have no such concern as "India" or "America," no. We are concerned with the living entities. We have no such stagnant idea. Stagnation. We have no such thing. Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma. That bhārata-bhūmite manuṣya. Manuṣya means man. He is different from others. Therefore he should know what is his position. Make his life successful and distribute the knowledge because they are ignorant. This should be India's position, teacher to the whole world. Not beggar.
Mr. Koshi: This support that you want... People have not taken sufficient interest in this distribution.
Prabhupāda: Because they have been taught like that.
Mr. Koshi: Taught to receive, not to give.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have been taught to become group of dogs and crows. That's all. These political party.
Mr. Koshi: You are against politicians.
Prabhupāda: No, no, we are not against, neither for. But these things will go on. This is going on since the creation, but that will not help. There have been, in other countries there has been Napoleon, there has been Hitler, there has been Mussolini, there has been Churchill. In India also we had many leaders like Gandhi and others. So what contribution they made? People are suffering.
Mr. Koshi: But you yourself were involved in some of the movements.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is not movement, it is knowledge. It is not artificial movement. It is knowledge, real knowledge, that you are not this body. You are not this machine. It is knowledge. It is meant for everyone. But you take an artificial movement. It is not. It is knowledge. And it is your duty to give knowledge to the people. If you have got any knowledge... All scientists do like that. It is not movement. When a scientist goes all over the world, he gives about his discovery, it is not movement. It is scientific knowledge. Movement is you create something and make your followers. That is movement. It is not like that. It is scientific knowledge that you are not this body. Dehino 'smin yathā. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā. Those who are fortunate, they will accept it. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhānām [Bg. 7.3]. Find out this verse. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gītā, but we are neglecting. Allah... We are getting photograph(?) in Bhagavad-gītā. This is... Actually understand Bhagavad-gītā and distribute the knowledge. That is our aim.
Mr. Koshi: But are there anything... Isn't there something more fundamental than that?
Prabhupāda: There are many things, and they are all subordinate. First of all you understand the body and the owner of the body. In the body there are so many things. Similarly, the owner of deha, greater number of things to know. First of all try to understand the beginning, that you are not this body. That is the fundamental understanding. Then you understand what is the composition of the body and what is the composition of the... The first knowledge is lacking, mistaken, that "I am this body." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [SB 10.84.13]. They are accepting this body as ātmā. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. We have written so many books, eighty-four books. And they are reading. In the Western world they are taking it.
Mr. Koshi: Yes, I was told.
Prabhupāda: Russia also they are taking it. So gradually they will take. They are intelligent. And we are neglecting. This is our misfortune. And misled we are. We are neglecting. But the leaders, they do not know what is Bhagavad-gītā, and they are professing as "I am scholar in the Bhagavad-gītā." They do not know what is distinction between the body and the owner of the body. The first lesson of Bhagavad-gītā they do not know. Then what they will understand Bhagavad-gītā? This is the first lesson.
Mr. Koshi: What is the solution?
Prabhupāda: Solution, you learn it!
Mr. Koshi: But they don't want to do it.
Prabhupāda: Then let them, they will go to hell. What can be done? If you want to cut your own throat, you can do it, who can save you? But our duty is don't make suicide. We must be all sane and tactful. But if you commit suicide, that is your business. What can I do? We shall go on. This is suicidal condition, to live like cats and dogs and jump like monkeys. Losing the opportunity of human being, where you can understand? Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is Vedānta-sūtra. They are neglecting it. They are neglecting it. You will go to hell. Kṛṣṇa says mām aprāpya. Everything is there.
They do not know what is the risk of mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. After all, you have to die. After death, if you become a tree in front of my house, who can check it? It is law of nature. You cannot check it. Then what will be your position? Stand up for thousands of years in one... So risky. They do not understand. They do not discuss these things in the Bhagavad-gītā, and still they are scholars of Bhagavad-gītā. They write comment on the Bhagavad-gītā, whimsically. This is going on. There are so many things to be learned from Bhagavad-gītā. They do not understand. And they are writing comment on Bhagavad-gītā, misleading others. It is clear. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre samavetā [Bg. 1.1]. It is clear. They will comment, they will make some bogus meaning.
Mr. Koshi: Interpretation.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Spoil their own life and spoil others. This is going on. The meaning is clear, but these rascals are thinking that "Meaning is not clear. Kṛṣṇa left for me to clear the meaning." That's all. Such rascals, they are touching Bhagavad-gītā. As if Kṛṣṇa left for him to clear the meaning. These rubbish things we want to stop. Of course, it is not possible. Many others are. But we are trying little, that's all. We cannot make any compromise. Therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What Kṛṣṇa says, that is a fact. They are completely under the grip of material nature. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. They are declaring independence. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. False, ahaṅkāra, egotism. Nature in one slap, crack! Indira Gandhi is so powerful, one slap, "Get out." What can you do? One slap is sufficient. They do not understand. Jump. They do not know. They are completely under the control of prakṛti, and prakṛti is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. They do not discuss this. Still they are scholar in Bhagavad-gītā. Simply picking up some words, they become scholar. Is that scholarship? They do not read even the whole Bhagavad-gītā, neither they understand. This is going on.
Mr. Koshi: Is interpretation necessary or not?
Prabhupāda: Why interpretation?
Mr. Koshi: Some passages, they do not know to understand it.
Prabhupāda: Just like if they do not know this is a tape recorder. What is interpreting? Everyone knows that this is a tape recorder. So what is interpretation? Interpretation required when you do not understand.
Mr. Koshi: Is it that simple and clear for everybody?
Prabhupāda: No, that is the way of interpretation. Amongst the learned circle, interpretation required when the things are not clear. If the things are clear, why nonsense interpretation? There is no need of interpretation. Dharma-kṣetre kuru-kṣetre [Bg. 1.1]. Kurukṣetra is still there, and people go there for pilgrimage. And in the Vedas it is stated kuru-kṣetre dharmān ācaret. "Go to Kurukṣetra and perform ritualistic ceremonies." What is the difficulty? Why should I interpret, "Kurukṣetra means this, and means this, that"? Why? To mislead others and mislead himself. This is not required. But they are doing it. That is misleading. If you can interpret Bhagavad-gītā by your own interpretation, then what is the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? Everyone can do like that. Everyone can say "It is my interpretation." Then where is the authority of Bhagavad-gītā? These things should be stopped. Real Bhagavad-gītā should be studied. People should make life Bhagavad-gītā and preach all over the world. This is our movement.
Mr. Koshi: Can I change the subject now?
Mr. Koshi: I mean to something different, about the... You all have list, some conditions in this...
Prabhupāda: No condition. Study Bhagavad-gītā. Make your life...
Mr. Koshi: No, for example, the saffron robe, the beads...
Prabhupāda: That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Mr. Koshi: And the shaving of the head with the little...
Mr. Koshi: And the avoidance of...
Prabhupāda: Cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13]. So just like if you take, become a police officer, you must take the dress.
Mr. Koshi: Uniform. No, but say the avoidance of tea and coffee and all that.
Mr. Koshi: Is something wrong with tea?
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is sinful, pāna.
Mr. Koshi: By itself it is not bad.
Prabhupāda: Itself is bad, sinful.
Mr. Koshi: It's a neutral thing.
Prabhupāda: You say, but śāstra says striya, sūnā, pāna, dyūta [SB 1.17.38], four kinds of sinful activities. Illicit sex; pāna, intoxication. Pāna, pāna, so it is intoxication. Therefore it is sinful.
Mr. Koshi: And what is the fourth?
Mr. Koshi: And therefore vegetarianism. Is that why vegetarianism is...?
Prabhupāda: First of all, you try to understand the principles. These are the four principles of sinful life. So you should avoid. Unless... Yeṣām anta gataṁ pāpam. That is the... Unless you are free from sinful activities, you cannot understand Kṛṣṇa. Yeṣām anta gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā [Bg. 7.28].
Mr. Koshi: What is the meaning of that?
Prabhupāda: Anyone who is completely free from sinful activities, he can understand Kṛṣṇa. If you are engaged in sinful activities, how you will understand Kṛṣṇa? Therefore these things are forbidden. "Don't do this. Understand Kṛṣṇa."
Mr. Koshi: I don't understand.
Prabhupāda: You don't understand, therefore I say you become a student. Understand it. That is our institution. If you don't want to understand, that is another thing.
Mr. Koshi: No. I try to understand, but I drink coffee and tea. I cannot...
Prabhupāda: Because you have not been taught by proper teacher.
Mr. Koshi: That I accept.
Prabhupāda: That is not your fault. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum eva abhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. This is Vedic injunction. So therefore our brahmacārī system. First of all one becomes brahmacārī. Brahmacārī guru-kule vasan dānto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. These things are there. Everything is there and we don't take advantage of this knowledge. We are after becoming dogs, that's all.
Mr. Koshi: But there are several millions like me.
Prabhupāda: That does not mean... Several zeros does not mean one. Millions of zeros does not mean one. Zero is zero. If several millions of zeros, adding, you cannot make one. That is not possible. One is required. And if you want after zero, you go on. But if you are after one, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, then you are Kṛṣṇa conscious. Sarva-dharmān parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Don't after these zeros. Mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja. This is the... If you are after zeros, that is your business. Kṛṣṇa says "Come after one." Then...
Mr. Koshi: So you say one, you mean this...
Prabhupāda: "One" means Kṛṣṇa.
Mr. Koshi: Yes, I know. But what about the rest in the pantheon? There are hundreds in the...
Prabhupāda: Why you are concerned? If you become perfect by one, why you're after so many? Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucaḥ [Bg. 18.66]. So we have taken that one. That's all. Kṛṣṇa. We are not after zeros. Ask these boys to come after zeros and bribe them millions of dollars. They will refuse: "No, we're after one, Kṛṣṇa." They have been trained up. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijñāte sarvam idaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavati. We have written these big, big books, eighty-four books, only on Kṛṣṇa. Now it is recognized that Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is genuine, in New York high-court.
Mr. Koshi: Yes, I saw the review in the Times of India also. But there was a lot of controversy there. It was called brainwashing and all that.
Prabhupāda: There are so many accusations. Now in the court has acknowledged, "It is genuine."
Mr. Koshi: But you don't require recognition of any court, do you?
Prabhupāda: You require. (laughter) I don't require. You require.
Mr. Koshi: Until then, there is a doubt.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because you are after the court, after the judges. We are not after anyone. We are after one: Kṛṣṇa. That's all. For you, it is confirmed. We know what our duty is. For the last twelve years there were so many impediments. It did not stop us. There was so much harassment.
Mr. Koshi: Where? Here, in this country?
Prabhupāda: Not here, there.
Mr. Koshi: In the United States.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. They were kidnapped, they were taken by force, and so on, so on. So many times.
Mr. Koshi: No, I think the opposition comes because of...
Prabhupāda: Opposition comes means there was some strength of this movement. Therefore there was...
Mr. Koshi: No, I think the complaint was of families...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, they felt the strength. In Bengali it is called capale babale.(?)
Mr. Koshi: What is the meaning of that?
Prabhupāda: Meaning means when there is some weight, is a (indistinct). So now they are feeling the weight of this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.
Mr. Koshi: They were afraid of something.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.
Mr. Koshi: Why?
Prabhupāda: Because the young men are taking it.
Mr. Koshi: But how does it...
Prabhupāda: It is not such yoga system. (imitates snoring) Meditation. It is not like that. Young men, they are taking it. They are preaching, they have sacrificed their life. So they are intelligent persons, they can understand that we should not die. It is not old man's recreation.
Mr. Koshi: No, but you are responsible for it.
Prabhupāda: I am not... Kṛṣṇa is responsible. I am just distributing. My duty is to distribute. That's all.
Mr. Koshi: Would you call yourself a guru?
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am guru.
Mr. Koshi: Because there are others who call themselves Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: Let them call.
Mr. Koshi: Are you a Bhagavān?
Mr. Koshi: Servant of Bhagavān. Are you happy with the way the movement has really spread? The...
Prabhupāda: Why not? Because I am giving the standard movement. I am not manufacturing anything. I am giving what is said by Kṛṣṇa. I am just distributing that. Why shall I not be happy? I am not manufacturing anything. That is not my business.
Mr. Koshi: How are others doing?
Prabhupāda: Yes, they are manufacturing. They have to do artificially. My things are ready, but I have simply distributed. Why shall I not be happy? If you do something artificially, you have to manufacture. I am not doing that. My things are ready.
Mr. Koshi: How is your health now?
Prabhupāda: Not good. Health or not health, it is the outward machine. That doesn't matter. But if it is a good machine then it helps, that's all. Otherwise, machine good or bad, it doesn't matter to machine driver.
Mr. Koshi: What happens when the machine stops?
Mr. Koshi: What is the meaning of that?
Prabhupāda: If your machine is stopped, you take another machine. That's all. You go on hearing. Not that your work will stop. You give up this machine. Take another machine. Actually you do that. Why shall I be overwhelmed, "Oh, machine is gone, machine is..."? Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, aśocyān anvaśocas tvam: [Bg. 2.11] "You are lamenting for the machine, nonsense. This is not paṇḍita's business." Nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ. Machine is gone, take another one, that's all. Go on.
Mr. Koshi: What is your day like, typical day? In the morning, what time you get up? Your day, how do you spend the day?
Prabhupāda: How can I say? I have got so many things.
Mr. Koshi: But do you receive visitors most of the time, or do you do a lot of reading?
Prabhupāda: No, no. I am sometimes receiving important visitors. Just like you are editor, if you understand, you can, if you like, there will be so many gains, beneficial. Therefore I...
Mr. Koshi: Do you take interest in the political happenings?
Prabhupāda: That will go on.
Mr. Koshi: No, but do you take interest?
Prabhupāda: Indira Gandhi goes, another Gandhi comes, another Gandhi goes, another Gandhi comes, another. That is the history, whole history of the world. There is nothing new. Punaḥ punaś carvita-carvaṇānām [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed. Politics means chewing the chewed, that's all.
Mr. Koshi: Chewing the?
Prabhupāda: Chewing something, just like sugar candy. You have chewed it, taken all the juice, you have thrown it away. Another man is chewing it. It is like that. Indira Gandhi also promised so many things, and she is now out, and somebody is speaking something.
Mr. Koshi: Morarji now.
Prabhupāda: Anyone. And in some day he will not be there, somebody will come. That is the history of the whole world. But that will not benefit the human society, politics. It is useless. This knowledge will help make the solution. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]. We are suffering in this material condition, and He is delivering from this. That is real upakāra. That's the repetition of history, politics.
Mr. Koshi: But it has been going on for quite some time.
Prabhupāda: It is going on, but time immemorial. That is not the solution.
Mr. Koshi: They have seen to have more control over people than others. When a person is empowered, his actions can affect so many people.
Prabhupāda: So what kind of people?
Mr. Koshi: Cats and dogs.
Prabhupāda: That's all. Śva-viḍ-varāha. They have been described in the Bhāgavata as dogs, camels, asses and hogs. Śva-viḍ-varāha-uṣṭra-kharaiḥ saṁstutaḥ puruṣaḥ paśuḥ. [break] The leader of hogs, dogs, camels and asses. Our civilization is brahminical, brāhmaṇa. That is wanted.
Mr. Koshi: Is that good or bad?
Prabhupāda: That is good. Unless you become brāhmaṇa, real brāhmaṇa, śama, dama, titikṣā, how you will understand? We are not for the hogs, dogs, cats. Therefore it is sometimes said that without becoming brāhmaṇa, nobody should try to understand Vedas. What he will understand? Paraṁ satyaṁ dhīmahi. Dhīmahi. This word is used because it is meant for the brāhmaṇas. Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ... dhīmahi. Dhīmahi. Dhīmahi is gāyatrī-mantra. It is chanted by the brāhmaṇas. That word is used in Bhāgavatam also.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I wanted to suggest that if he has some further questions, we could try to answer them, and then if there is still some unanswered...
Prabhupāda: No. He has no answer on this spiritual matter. He'll ask me some political... We have no function in politics.
Mr. Koshi: No, there was a few other questions regarding the Society.
Prabhupāda: The fundamental principle is that we are teaching about the owner of the body.
Mr. Koshi: Yeah, but what we are in the outside world... I am not in the Society. What I see outside is totally... You see, when I see a group of young people like these boys here dancing in the street, it is something jarring to my eyes. I am not used to it. What is the necessity for the chant and the...
Prabhupāda: That is going on. One man's food, another man's poison.
Mr. Koshi: No, no, there is a purpose behind it.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Purpose... That is the way. That is the way.
Mr. Koshi: To?
Prabhupāda: To spiritual understanding in this age. Ecstasy. Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. You have to follow the Vedic injunctions. Kṛṣṇotkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau. Utkīrtana-gāna-nartana-parau.
Mr. Koshi: So by looking at him you are trying to rouse the interests of the people, or curiosity?
Prabhupāda: You can take interest in so many ways. If you are not interested in that way, read books. Are you not interested in reading books? Read. We have got many ways. That is for mass of people. The class of people who wants to understand this movement through science, philosophy, come on, read these books.
Mr. Koshi: One of the conditions is illicit sex.
Prabhupāda: That is sinful. Don't you see, illicit sex, what havoc it has done?
Mr. Koshi: What exactly do you mean?
Prabhupāda: Illicit sex, do you think it is...?
Mr. Koshi: Outside marriage, you mean?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not only outside marriage. Even in marriage, you cannot have sex as you like. You must have sex according to the regulative principle or religious principle.
Mr. Koshi: Could you explain?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like only for begetting nice children.
Mr. Koshi: For begetting?
Prabhupāda: Nice children.
Mr. Koshi: What is the meaning of good children?
Prabhupāda: Good children means not these rogues and thieves, but one who can understand God. That is good children.
Mr. Koshi: It is the parents' responsibility.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Garbhādhāna-saṁskāra. These are stated. It is not secret matter. When the father goes to beget child, he has to perform ritualistic ceremonies in the presence of relative, brāhmaṇas. They will understand that "He is going now to beget a child." It is not a secret thing. It is garbhādhāna. And if in a brāhmaṇa family the garbhādhāna-saṁskāra is not observed, then immediately he becomes a śūdra.
Mr. Koshi: What is not a secret thing?
Prabhupāda: Secret... Just like when we go and have sex with wife secretly. It is not secret.
Mr. Koshi: There is a ceremony.
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is ceremony.
Mr. Koshi: Don't you think that the children should be given freedom to choose voluntarily?
Prabhupāda: Do you want to give freedom to your children?
Mr. Koshi: I am asking you.
Prabhupāda: No, no. What is the use of giving freedom to a child with a razor? He will cut his throat, that's all.
Mr. Koshi: But at a later age, perhaps when he is better...
Prabhupāda: Later age, yes. That is enjoined. When child is sixteen years old he can do as he likes, not before that.
This is the moral instruction of Cāṇakya Paṇḍita. Up to five years, don't chastise, don't take any action. Let him be free. Whatever he likes, he can do. Then after fifth year, for ten years you must be very strict. Then five years and ten years, fifteen. And when he is sixteen years, treat him like a friend. Prāpte tu ṣoḍaśe varṣe putraṁ mitravad ācaret. At that time, no stricture that he will break. "My dear boy, if you do this..." This is necessary. And from fifth year to fifteenth year you should chastise the sons and disciples just like tiger. After five years.
Mr. Koshi: Using the stick.
Mr. Koshi: Did you get?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, by Prabhupāda. Even though we were not five years old, he treats us just like as if we were five. Because spiritually we are still like that. So he is very strict with us.
Prabhupāda: All these boys I chastise vehemently. Even a little mistake.
Mr. Koshi: You...?
Prabhupāda: They tolerate. They know.
Mr. Koshi: What is your message to the world?
Prabhupāda: Again you ask me. (laughter) (Hindi)
Mr. Koshi: Yes, I know. but...
Prabhupāda: After reading Rāmāyaṇa you are asking whose father is Sītā. (laughter) I have explained already.
Mr. Koshi: (Hindi) I have to return to.
Indian: No, we can make your..., you can make your choice. If you want to know about the Society, we can show you the whole thing. How the whole thing started and everything. For eight years we are doing everything. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Write nice article.
Mr. Koshi: Don't worry about that. It is my job.
Prabhupāda: It is very important.
Mr. Koshi: I think we will read out the article when it appears. Could you do that?
Gargamuni: We will bring the article to you. It is coming next week.
Mr. Koshi: Yes, within the next two, three weeks, depending on the availability of space.
Mr. Koshi: Yeah, but have to report it so simply, because our readers may not be able to understand. And I don't know Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: I am explaining. You have recorded.
Mr. Koshi: I have accidentally stumbled into the...
Indian: That's okay. You are most welcome. You can see the film, because there is no time today. Today they have program, and they are doing every day practically. (telling him to come and he will show him around the temple, etc.)
Mr. Koshi: Okay.
Prabhupāda: Give him some prasādam.
Mr. Koshi: Thank you very much.
Prabhupāda: All right. (guests leave) (end)
April 5, 1977, Bombay
Girirāja: ...so even if they do everything else correct in terms of the body. They go farther and farther from the real solution.
Prabhupāda: Everyone has done this mistake. "I am God." What is the use of the advancement of so-called civilization?
Girirāja: We have to show that this is scientific fact. Otherwise the demons will make propaganda that this is sectarian.
Prabhupāda: "Brainwashed." They say "brainwashed."
Prabhupāda: So if he has already talked with Morarji, and he has agreed, then it is great advance.
Prabhupāda: Good advance.
Girirāja: He said he would be pleased to meet you. He gave a speech on the television last night.
Girirāja: Yes. In Hindi. I couldn't follow all of it, but there was a lot of reference to Gandhi and Gandhi's principles and the..., molding the character of youth. So I told Mr. Rajda—I was watching with Mr. Rajda in his house—that this is the real way to fulfill all of these goals, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and Mr. Rajda said yes.
Prabhupāda: Then that television speech must be out in the paper.
Girirāja: Yes, it must have been reported this morning. I mean he is representing a return to the more traditional standards of morality and culture of India.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say that they are going to replace this family planning with yoga. Instead of using artificial means, they're going to teach yoga.
Prabhupāda: To become brahmacārī.
Girirāja: The minister of health and family planning, he said, he denied, that "This name should be changed to just minister of health, because this type of family planning is against the traditional values of India."
Girirāja: Actually, a short time ago, everyone knew that these things were wrong, but now they are trying to pretend that it is not wrong. They are trying to forget.
Prabhupāda: They can do, all their political divisions. These rascals, they can do. Anything. They have no principles, no morality, no standard of morality, nothing. Simply all rogues and thieves. It will more and more. All rogues and thieves will take part in politics. That is stated. Dasyu dharmeṇa. Just like dasyu, the burglar, the thieves, they have got organization how to get money. So they, the government, they'll be rogues and thieves. And whenever there is necessity of money, then tax. You work hard; they will tax. Organized burglars, organized guṇḍās. And Indira was doing that. Indira and company. Take the power and club(?) them and do whatever you like. She is a prostitute; her son is a guṇḍā. This is the sample of the... But it will be done all round the world. This is a sample of that.
Prabhupāda: She is not leader, she is a prostitute. Woman given freedom means prostitute. Free woman means prostitute. What is this prostitute? She has no fixed-up husband. And free woman means this, daily, new friend.
Girirāja: He died at an early age.
Prabhupāda: Hm? Who?
Girirāja: He was asking what happened to her husband. I said he died. He was a Parsee. As Your Divine Grace had said, that due to the saṅkīrtana movement an auspicious atmosphere is being created all over the world. So is it not possible that at least for the time being things will improve?
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Improve. Not for the time being. For ten thousand years.
Girirāja: Yes. Out of 427,000 years I was taking that 10,000 as for the time being.
Prabhupāda: It is nothing sport.(?)
Prabhupāda: That I have heard it. Maybe in the Bhāgavata. Such a nice thing. Alone in this world I am struggling, and the so-called intelligent persons, they will not come. They have business. Why? If it is actually beneficial to the human society, why I should alone try? I will go on trying so long I'll live. There will be no checking of... But what kind of intelligent persons there are? (Govindam record in background) It has been approved by intelligent men like... From our section. Most wretched rogues. They do work. They are not so. They are intelligent. They have rejected all these "Lord" ideas and the... Because they have sinned, all humbug. Especially in the Western countries, in the Christian world, what is there? It is bogus. I have condemned it. You have seen that book? One Christian boy inquired. Have you got the copy? Bring. (pause) We shall go on playing govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam aham. People may hear or not hear. We don't mind.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: To Mr. Francois Pierre. "My dear Francois." He's in France. "Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated March 17th. Try to understand our mission of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The world is all going to hell. They do not know what is the value of life. Like blind sheep following a blind leader, they are all going to the slaughterhouse. Human life is meant for saving, but instead the leaders are keeping the people in darkness. This is suicidal. Let us try to save them. Christian, Hindu, or Muslim, it doesn't matter. One must have faith in God. But if one does not know what is God, then what is the question of religion? This sectarian view has caused havoc in the world. Our real business is to know God and one's relationship with God. Do you know what is God? The answers to your questions are as follows: 1) Yes, the message of Jesus is universally applicable. Why not? Jesus says, 'Thou shalt not kill.' This is applicable to all. But all Christians are violating this law. So where is a Christian? In my opinion there is not a single Christian. Do they follow all ten commandments? 2) We accept Jesus Christ as śaktyāveśa-avatāra, an empowered incarnation of God. 3) The Bible should be accepted literally and not symbolically. There is no symbolical meaning of the sacrifice on the cross. The people were so rascal. They attempted to kill him because he was speaking of God. We can understand the position of that society. He had to deal with such rascals. He preached 'Thou shalt not kill,' and they killed him. The argument that Jesus died to redeem us of sins is simply another sinful argument. That Jesus has taken contract to redeem your sins is simply a plea of the sinners. They continue sinning and expect Christ to take the contract to freedom. It is most sinful. Instead of actually stopping sins, they contract with Jesus Christ. These people should be immediately hanged. That way our..., they say, 'That way our religion is very good. We cannot stop sinning, but it is okay because Christ has taken contract to save us.' It is the same as saying 'I am chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa now. I can do any nonsense.' That is known as nāma-aparādha, offenses to the holy name of the Lord. 4) Regarding Christ coming again, for the time being, you follow his instructions. Then if he comes it will be all right. Regarding the position of our movement if Christ were to come again, that we shall see when he comes. 'The end of the world' means that the world will be devastated. Just like you have a body and it will be finished, similarly the whole world body will be devastated. Creation, maintenance and annihilation. Naśa in Sanskrit means devastated. 5) There is no difference between a pure Christian and a sincere devotee of Kṛṣṇa. 6) Everything is accurately described in the Bhāgavata Mahāpurāṇa. Love of God means God's mercy. If God is pleased, He will do anything. The pleasure of God can be awarded by God. In Sanskrit it is described kṛpā-siddhi, perfection out of mercy. One must follow the four regulative principles—no eating meat, fish or eggs; no intoxication; no gambling; and no illicit sex life. Repent of all sinful activities and depend on Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Hoping this meets you well, your ever well-wisher, A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami."
Girirāja: Very nice. Actually, about two years ago there was a propaganda in the West that if you are afraid of sinning, then it means that you don't have full faith in Jesus Christ. Because he has promised to accept your sinful reactions. So therefore if you sin, then it means that you have full faith that he will accept the reaction.
Prabhupāda: When the Bible has said, that after death one goes to hell or heaven? If Jesus Christ has taken a contract, then where is the question of going to hell?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, that is for people who don't sign the contract with him. That is what they say. As long as you say that you accept Jesus, then you are going to heaven for sure.
Prabhupāda: So then Jesus Christ accepted sinful reaction of a certain class of men. He is not universal.
Girirāja: That means the Christians.
Prabhupāda: Just see. This is their great philosophy.
Girirāja: So this point was an embarrassment for the Christian theologians, because people would say, "Well, what about great philosophers like Socrates and Plato who lived before Jesus? They are also damned to suffer in hell?" So this question was very perplexing. It was hard for them to condemn that they are all burning in hell. I mean, actually they have no philosophy at all.
Prabhupāda: All nonsense.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is why we rejected our so-called religious heritage. We could see that there was no substance to it. And the leaders were just like normal debauchees of any other groups. They weren't spiritual. I used to remember seeing the priests and the rabbis getting drunk, smoking cigarettes, talking nonsense just like everybody else. There was no difference except for the dress.
Prabhupāda: This is everywhere. In India also.
Girirāja: Amogha-līlā was... Mr. Krishnamurti didn't come back until the afternoon, so it couldn't be taken for being brought up to date.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So I'm going today. I have to meet with Girirāja about a number of things, Śrīla Prabhupāda. (end)
April 5, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: (Hindi:) Dictionary? Harvard Original Series.
Guest (1) (Indian man): Oriental Series.
Prabhupāda: Oriental Series.
Guest (1): Vedic Concordance. All the ślokas of Veda are listed according to alphabetical order of reference, and it is mentioned where they are occurring.
Guest (1): It is in the indexes. It is according to alphabetically arranged.
Prabhupāda: They have so much respect for Sanskrit language.
Guest (1): No, there are about ten, fifteen volumes like this. Sanskrit dictionary.
Prabhupāda: That means they have got respect.
Guest (1): No, they are learning from it actually. They are doing all the research and everything.
Prabhupāda: Our books are selling due to the Sanskrit scholarship.
Guest (1): Yes, Sanskrit scholarship.
Prabhupāda: Word-to-word meanings.
Guest (1): This is I, so you have to go to J.
Guest (1): No, it is according to Sanskrit order. Can you find it?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the Hindi Bhāgavatam has been very appreciated, after the lamination that plastic coating we have put, it looks better. Actually the presentation is even better than the Spanish Bhāgavatams. I got some new, even improved binding, bound books today. I'll send them to you tonight or tomorrow. They look very first class. I am sending Prem Yogi back to Vṛndāvana tomorrow, because First Canto, Part Two, is almost composed. So it requires to be proofread before I bring it to Bombay for printing. So the work is just being delayed. And also there is just one week's work left on First Canto, Part Three. So I told him to go back to Vṛndāvana for two weeks, and if you go to Srinagar, I promised him I would send him to Srinagar, because he wants to go to a cold climate. Then after that...
Prabhupāda: Yes. If I go I will call him.
Prabhupāda: There was another place, Solen.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Somebody wanted to give us that place.
Prabhupāda: So why not take that place?
Prabhupāda: If he wants, he can go.
Prabhupāda: Then do that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. He does not speak.
Prabhupāda: So let us occupy that place.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: And now that Trivikrama Swami is operating in Punjab with his party, it is good, because he can go there sometimes also.
Prabhupāda: So take that place.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, now we will take it. It's a very good idea. So it is okay if we send him back. I want to get the First Canto, Part Two...
Prabhupāda: And as soon as we go to Srinagar I shall call. From Delhi to Srinagar...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It's not far. This evening Girirāja and myself saw Jaya Prakash Narayan in his hospital. I gave him your Hindi Bhāgavatam and Kṛṣṇa Conscious Movement and your Gītā Girirāja gave. He liked it very much. He inquired how much Bhāgavatam you have translated. He inquired where our temple is. We said Juhu. He said he would come here. Of course, he is very, very sick. And I asked him for an appointment that we could come and show him our movie. And he has agreed to even see our movie. So in one or two days we will show him the movie in the morning. And in the evening there were hundreds of people, so we only saw him for three or four minutes. He has agreed to see us again. And he wants to meet you, he said. So when he is okay he will come to see you.
Prabhupāda: Girirāja said that the Prime Minister also.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, that's Morarji Desai. That Ratan Singh Rajda had said that. Morarji Desai told Ratan Singh Rajda. Jaya Prakash Narayan is the most important man in the country now. He is like Mahatma Gandhi.
Guest (1): He is Mahatma Gandhi's second man, father of the nation.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We saw him just now, Girirāja and myself. He was very favorable, Śrīla Prabhupāda, and we showed him your books.
Prabhupāda: He knows about our movement?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, I asked him first thing if he has heard, he said yes. And we gave him a copy of that Kṛṣṇa Consciousness is Genuine Indian Culture, which shows all our cultural activities, your Gītā. He said this booklet is very expensive, but we said we shall like you to read it. And we mentioned that your desire is that the leaders of this country become God conscious and then everybody else will become God conscious. And I gave an example of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira. He looked very spiritual to us. He was very friendly. I was amazed that a man who has such....
Prabhupāda: He is practical also indoubtedly. He has no selfish motives.
Guest (1): No self-motives.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: He is very sick, so he said, "Now this is with me for the rest of my life unless some spiritual sādhu does some magic." So I could see that he is, because of this illness, he has probably become more spiritual now, which is also Kṛṣṇa's arrangement.
catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ
janāḥ sukṛtino 'rjuna
ārto jijñāsur arthārthī
jñānī ca bharatarṣabha
When one is distressed, ārtaḥ, if he is pious then he comes to Kṛṣṇa. If he is pious. Na māṁ duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. Those who are not pious, they will never come.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: So our goal is next time we'll see him again, show him the movie, and then try to get a letter of introduction from him to Morarji Desai and the home minister, because if he gives a letter, then nobody will say no to anything.
Guest (1): Everybody will come now.
Prabhupāda: If Morarji Desai comes, others will do.
Guest (1): And because of the Russian order and American work, he will be also very much pleased. Everybody was clapping at that pandal on Sunday. When Girirāja read about the order, the whole audience started clapping. That Russia is defeated by purchasing the books. In the final thing. He doesn't require any special recommendation.
Guest (2) (Indian man): Śrīla Prabhupāda, (Hindi) ("Only Vedic ślokas are here, not Bhāgavata")
Guest (1): Even Upaniṣads are not there?
Guest (2): No.
Guest (1): Only pure Vedas are there.
Prabhupāda: All the Veda, all the students for four Vedas.
Guest (1): No, if it is a school, I can give it here in the library for research, because this will be a useful thing. They are not easily available, because published in '64. Originally it was published in 1906. After sixty years they are brought up the cheaper copy for edition by American collaboration. America has given the money. Therefore it is only costing forty rupees.
Girirāja: Are those printed here?
Guest (1): Printed here. Banarsidass, Lucknow or Kanpur. These are the Motilal Banarsidass-Delhi, Varanasi and Patna. And money was given by America(?).
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: We read in the papers today that there is talk that Sanjay Gandhi and his mother may run from the country, because the government has launched many investigations into the malpractices of Sanjay Gandhi. So the government has ordered the security on all the borders to be very tight.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: All the airports now they are making special security, especially to check any politicians who might try to escape the country, due to being investigated.
Guest (1): Their passports are also taken away. That's what I have heard.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In the Times of India you saw that starlight or side light or something, about Indira Gandhi. In today's paper, Indira Gandhi had gone to a ten-day function at one of the African embassies. She went with her daughter-in-law, and nobody even noticed her. Only fifteen minutes after she left the function did the host realize that Indira Gandhi had come. She went to a party, she stayed there, and she left and the host did not know that "Indira Gandhi is here." That shows how material nature changes.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It also shows that actually she had no value, because one who is actually great doesn't lose his value simply by losing an election.
Prabhupāda: Vidvān sarvatra pūjyate. Vidvatāṁ ca nṛpatyāṁ ca naiva tulyaṁ kadācana.(?) She is not a learned man. She occupied the royal seat. That honor was so long there, the royal seat. And who will be honor her?
Prabhupāda: And anyone who is vidvān, then that will be honored everywhere.
Sarvatra means everywhere, without any condition. Just see how she is suffering now mental agony.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Her son has started growing a beard now also, to hide. He had to... He has grown a beard now.
Guest (1): To hide from people.
Guest (1): Disguise.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: It came in the papers that the government was giving contracts to his son's businesses, and he was taking commission and keeping them in foreign banks. And they were giving contracts to her son's businesses at a higher rate than the market. There was open tender, and even though his rates were higher, he was still getting the contracts. And he was getting 21% commission from these companies and keeping them abroad. So it just shows how corrupt these leaders are.
Guest (1): No, they have taken hundred crores of rupees from State Bank of India.
Guest (1): No, hundred crores in one day after election. Hundred crores of rupees taken from State Bank, and there is a big inquiry about that.
Guest (1): Yes, yes.
Guest (1): Congress Party has taken out. State Bank, the biggest bank in India.
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: How State Bank gave them?
Guest (1): That is a whole new inquiry. Last time it was fifty-six. It is the talk of the town actually. It comes in paper now.
Guest (1): Yes. There are so many separate... Not the Times of India, not the press. I'll get you the cutting. I'll get it. Everything is coming out.
Guest (1): So they had collected money for the election purpose. They have put in the State Bank for Congress money under some account.
Prabhupāda: They credited the account?
Guest (1): Yes.
Prabhupāda: State Bank has not given out?
Guest (1): No.
Prabhupāda: What money they have taken?
Guest (1): No, only they collected from this, and other people.
Prabhupāda: Whatever that State Bank kept that money and gave that. So there is no fault of the State Bank. State Bank has no fault.
Guest (1): No, but they can't give so much money in one day to the party. Particularly after the election debacle. That money will go out of India and transfer into foreign funds. Because there are all brokers here. Suppose you have got hundred rupees. You can exchange pounds and get it in London. Anyone can do it. So this money was used for that purpose. If it was known that elections are lost and this money will not be utilized in India, they would not have given.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: America gave a lot of money to the Congress Party because Sanjay Gandhi was very friendly with America, with agent of many American companies.
Prabhupāda: America was against Indira?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No. In the last one year they had changed. Because of Sanjay. One good thing about Sanjay Gandhi was he was completely anti-Communist. He was pro-American and pro cap-free society. So India's relation with Russia was getting loose and with America was getting tight. Because of Sanjay Gandhi. So that was one good thing.
Prabhupāda: Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. What is the goal of life, they do not know. Svārtha-gatim. Everyone says, "I must see first of all my self-interest." But he does not know what is self-interest. That is not unnatural. If I say that "I must see first of all myself," you cannot blame me, because everyone does that. But you must know what is your svārtha-gatim. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. So it is in paper published that they have been forbidden to go out?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, in today's evening news. That all the borders have been warned to be very careful.
Prabhupāda: The other son is already outside India?
Guest (1): No, he is out of politics. He is a wise man. He has not entered politics at all. Sanjiv.
Guest (1): He never heard about any politics or anything. He is just like an ordinary citizen.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They say he is not as smart as Sanjay. That means he is not as crooked. So he is out of politics.
Guest (1): They have got. He is not living there.
Prabhupāda: That is honest life. Earn your livelihood. Who is the elder?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: This pilot. I got a letter from Vrinda De today. He says we are getting very good inquiries from our newspaper advertisement and producing a special catalogue, which we are going to give to everyone who writes and which is going to be cheap, because the American catalogue is very expensive. So he is asking...
Prabhupāda: We wanted some.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, those were the American. But now we are doing the Indian version, which is costing us 30 paisa each. So that we can give away to anyone who writes in. So I am going to send them. But he says many inquiries are pouring in. And when I was in Calcutta three weeks ago I saw him in his office. He showed me letters. They are coming from all over east India, from Orissa, from Cuttack, about our books. During the month of March, BBT India distributed over about fifty thousand pieces of books and magazines, to the temples, libraries, everything included. Fifty thousand pieces of books.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. It is being typed. It is all ready. I am showing you a complete statement of all the paper purchased, how it is used, a complete statement of every book printed in India, where it is distributed, what the balance is; complete inventory report, how much stock we have in hand, and books distributed in the month of March. We are producing these reports every month now. Everything. All the records are there.
Prabhupāda: No, but that bank manager wanted to come?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He came, but I only got back by four-thirty, and he said he would come again at eleven o'clock tomorrow morning.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was reading, going through my mail. State Bank had written to me earlier. They are also applying for an extension counter, and we want a full bank, because they were seeing me before, their manager here.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Prabhupāda said that if they are willing to pay the rent, even if in the beginning it is only an extension counter, that's not so bad.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Like Indian Overseas, I gave them a rate of Rs. 4.50 per square foot, but the market rate was 4.
Prabhupāda: They are also ready to...
Girirāja: Yes, because that's the rate I established. We checked the market rate. Plus we want them to give six months of rent in advance, plus we want another benefit from them. I was recently in Hyderabad, and I saw an advertisement in the Hindu paper of Madras by a temple, which advertised the deity of the temple and said you can make a donation, and you can make a donation at any of the branches of the Indian bank, Bank of Madras. So one of the things I have been talking to these banks is when we open a Bombay temple we would like to try this approach here, advertise the Deities, have a small story about the Deities, and say anyone who wants to make a donation can make it at any branch of State Bank of India without any charge. And then the bank must agree to give us this service, collect the money and remit to us. So with the banks who have been coming I have been asking them...
Prabhupāda: They will deposit in Bombay.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes, any branch. Like this is more attractive, because a branch may be close to their house. They just go in and say, "Take this ten rupees and give to Rādhā-Rāsavihārī temple in Juhu." So the bank... I spoke to three banks. They agreed. So this condition also they must agree, because this will be a very novel way of getting donations in Bombay area. They do this in the south.
Guest (1): (name of a temple)
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. I cut that advertisement. I was very attracted when I saw it. Do you think it is a good idea?
Prabhupāda: Hm. Go to...
Devotees: Jaya, Śrīla Prabhupāda. [break]
Guest (1): Slowly about the program is that. I am trying to liquidate my assets in Allahabad because all this my dead father, dead mother, brother, all the properties are gone now. So when that is free, I'll take up this property here.
Guest (1): That I am doing at home.
Prabhupāda: No, I mean to say that we are inviting, people may come, live peacefully, and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. This is an attempt. Otherwise, we could have built some apartment house... [break]...the J.P.?
Prabhupāda: Jaya Prakash Narayan. Even in old days they were dealing with this politics. What they will do good to the people? But they do not know. This is disease. They do not study the whole history of the world. What Gandhi has done? What Hitler has done? What Napoleon has done? And what they will do? But they are applauded. "He is promising within one year poverty will be driven away." All false propaganda. Ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27]. Vimūḍhātmā. Rascals. They are promising so many things. They will never be able to do anything. And they are applauded.
Guest (1): I think they should be invited here to see what is being done.
Prabhupāda: No, they know it. Study the whole history of the world. What the big, big leaders have done? They are not new leaders. Before them, all over the world there were big, big leaders. Napoleon promised so many things. At last, he had to drink horse's urine and die. When he was captured by the Englishmen he wanted water and he was given horse urine. Envisioned, "I shall make my promise, the most important stage." The Britishers, so many, Gladstone, Churchill, Lloyd George(?), British Empire. Have they done any benefit? Indira made plan, Nehru family will be English terrorist. Now what is her position? So they studying history. Still, they are promising. Mūḍha.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the great saintly persons, their works have done good for generations in thousands of years.
Prabhupāda: Imaṁ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Become rājarṣi, try to understand what Kṛṣṇa says. Duṣkṛtinaḥ mūḍhāḥ. They will manufacture. Morarji Desai, he promised within ten years. Whether he will live ten years? He is already eighty. So this is the time for promising? This is the time for retiring for understanding Kṛṣṇa. You know. This man is rotting in the hospital, he's promising so many things.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I advised Gandhi that he should retire. He never retired. That's all right. And our program is, they have chucked out. Pañcāśordhvaṁ vanaṁ vrajet. You show your all nonsense ability up to fifty years. Don't go more than that. Because you are rascal, you will never be able to do anything, but jump like monkey up to fifty years, not more than that. Monkey jumping may be continued up to fifty years. Then retire. They will continue monkey jumping up to the last point of death.
Prabhupāda: That's all. And then go to hell. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. So after jumping, when this body is finished, he is going to accept another body offered by nature. Kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yoniṣu [Bg. 13.22]. Rascals, they do not know how nature is working. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi [Bg. 3.27]. Making plan and wasting time, wasting their valuable life. At least, this institution which we have started to give this enlightenment, they must be maintained in India in a first-class standard, that at least some intelligent persons can take advantage. They are all fools, rascals. They cannot take. All the duṣkṛtino mūḍhāḥ prapadyante narādhamāḥ. That is already described. Narādhamas will not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But there are persons who are not narādhama. For them there must be. Diamond shop is not for everyone, but there are some persons who can purchase diamonds. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. It is not meant for everyone. So this is India's culture. At least, these men should be conscientious that "Let this Bhagavad-gītā culture be maintained in pure form." There is cultural department government. They are sending dancing party. You see. Real culture. And to make show they will pose themselves as great student of Bhagavad-gītā. So we are making alone a little tiny effort, but it is being appreciated all over the world. That is our encouragement. Our books, our philosophy, our religion, America has accepted: "Yes, it is Indian. Enough." (?) It is not sentiment.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Everyone has seen that. The bank manager at Central Bank today said that "I saw your movement is now respected as genuine religion."
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is genuine. It is genuine.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I would not have given up. I would have spent all my assets to fight this case. But Kṛṣṇa's grace, in one day. Not fourteen days even. This is Kṛṣṇa. On the first review. Yes. I wanted even fourteen years. Yes. I was prepared. I will spend all my money. But Kṛṣṇa is so kind, He wanted: "Take it, this advent(?). Finished." This is Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is wonderful. I have written one chapter...
Prabhupāda: Yes. If simply they appreciate that Kṛṣṇa is wonderful, their life will be successful. This very simple thing. A child can do it. Kṛṣṇa is wonderful, there is no doubt. Let them admit only. They will be pushed forward in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. I'll request only these big, big men that maintain this institution to attract intelligent persons from all over the world. And you do all nonsense, whatever you like, but maintain this. And if possible, after retirement come and do practical something. What is this nonsense? Andhā yathāndhair upa... What he will do? They are promising so many rascal things. What you will do? What you have got? Indira promised so many things. Bluffed. What she can do? Now she is, herself, Indira Gandhi. Te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. Īśa-trantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ. They want to do something. What happens? Gandhi, when he started nonviolence, "Within one year" And he dragged for fifty years. Twenty years in Durban and thirty years in India. Could not do anything. If you say that Gandhi could not do anything, people will be angry. But see, study the whole history. What did he do? Did the Britishers care for Gandhi's nonviolent movement? Pat him. "Let this rascal go on with his movement. We'll go on." That was the disagreement with Subhash Bose. Subhash Bose said, "Mahatmaji, they will never go by this nonviolence. You have to take to violence." He said that "I will never have independence, but I will not take it." Therefore he left India. When he organized that INA and when the Britishers felt the (indistinct), "Now the soldiers have joined," all hopes lost. They did not give up India for Gandhi's nonviolence.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That is what the usual belief is. The usual belief is that it was due to Gandhi's nonviolence.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is said in Hong Kong, somewhere. People were astonished. Nobody said like that. And this is the fact.
Guest (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, I have small request. I have a friend who is M.D., and he is doing research in Hyderabad. He is about eighty-three years old. So I was just wondering whether you would like to meet him some time for consultation.
Guest (1): He had done translation of Suśruta-saṁhitā from Sanskrit to English in six volumes, and he has established one Ayurvedic college and other things in Jahmnedabad about thirty years ago. He is a very personal friend of our life member Sanat Bhatai or (indistinct), who are expert in income tax. They are handling our income tax matters. He's a senior partner, about eighty-four years old. So I talked to him today, and he has thought whether you would like to take his advantage of the knowledge of the...
Prabhupāda: Yes, I can take advantage, but no medicine.
Guest (1): No, we can have discussion with him. We can have only consultation, and he is doing out of friendly relation. He does not want money out of you.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.
Guest (1): He is of your own age. So if you tell me then I can bring him tomorrow, because I am going out on seventh.
Guest (1): What is a good time?
Prabhupāda: This time.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Jaya. (Hindi) (Indian enters) (Hindi conversation) So I am asking, you going to Delhi. (Hindi) You are the right person.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: I was telling Prem Yogi that everybody is already asking for First Canto, Part Two. They are saying where is Part Two? I said it is coming up quickly.
Prabhupāda: Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā śreya-ācaraṇam sadā. This is premame(?) jīvātmā. Prāṇair arthair dhiyā vācā. (Hindi) Why people do not understand this philosophy? Making plans for welfare activities. Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. (check this) Uru. Uru patim(?). Uru means (Hindi). Uru-dāmni. (Hindi) This is called gṛha. (Hindi) Expanded gṛha, and... What is called? It is concentrated...
Prem Yogi: Contracted.
Prabhupāda: Contracted. Contraction and extraction.
Prem Yogi: Expansion. Can I take leave, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Give them fruit.
Prem Yogi: Can I come in the afternoon about 4:30? Tomorrow, 4:30?
Prabhupāda: Did he say (Hindi)?
Prem Yogi: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: People will appreciate.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. And doctor
Prabhupāda: Hm. Never mind.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That place is not too high altitude? Someone told us that he was in Kashmir at eleven thousand feet altitude. That boy who was driving us today, he was there last year.
Prabhupāda: That is crossing. But...
Bhavānanda: The valleys.
Prabhupāda: ...the real Kashmir is the valleys. Five thousand.
Bhavānanda: Gargamuni says in those valleys it is very hot.
Bhavānanda: He was either in Kashmir or right next to it, same area, Sivagudhi, Simla or someplace.
Bhavānanda: Very hot.
Prabhupāda: No, Simla is not hot. This Srinagar is not hot. I know that. I went there. I know. When I crossed, there was snow on the road. So when Guru dāsa will send his report?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: As soon as he meets Dr. Karan Singh. I told him to make detailed arrangements and give detailed report. You are eager to go there, I think.
Prabhupāda: Not very eager. I was eager only that if I simply get regular appetite, then the..., I can get some strength to work, that's all. So ask them to give me little orange.
Bhavānanda: Our only concern is that in the traveling to get to a place where you may get some strength—may not—that you will lose strength in the traveling. Without a guarantee.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact.
Bhavānanda: You would like some orange, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Anything else?
Prabhupāda: A little salt.
Prabhupāda: (telling story?) You have taken my watch.
Prabhupāda: So bring it now. (laughter) All right, I am going to hand over to police. Very good. He has smuggled it. And the police came. So he was going to arrest them. He was astonished. [break] (end)
April 5, 1977, Bombay
Indian man (Doctor?): I would like to have the history of the present program which is going on. It will be apparent that so much will be there. The same thing is going on.
Prabhupāda: I have no appetite. I cannot digest. This is going on. [break] (doctor has left) ...You have seen the birds, the sparrow, the crows. They are different birds. They have got different movements.
Prabhupāda: From the pulse beating, you study how it is beating.
Prabhupāda: Ācchā. Then, according to that, there is verse. Immediately everything will be arranged. The history. He will not ask, "Give me the history." He'll study the history from the pulse. That is Ayurvedic. So that is gone. To study Āyur-veda is now lost. Nobody seriously takes Āyur-veda.
Prabhupāda: Thing is alleopathic is so popular now, nobody goes to Āyur-veda.
Prabhupāda: They can give immediately, take. Although that is not very good, still, by lecture and by some strong medicine they can give him immediately. People like that. And Āyur-veda is long term, and people cannot wait.
Prabhupāda: And that is also not very sure, because the Ayurvedic physicians, they have not taken many cases. They cannot experience. Everything requires experience. These are the difficulties in Āyur-veda. Still, some of the patent medicines, they are effective. Just like cyavana-prāśa, nava-yogendra, yogendra-rasa.(?) If they are properly prepared.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Bhavānanda Mahārāja could get you some ḍāb water if you like. Prabhupāda was liking some ḍāb water.
Prabhupāda: ...community. If the one community said, "Within our religion, there is no need of education..."
Prabhupāda: So will the state allow that?
Prabhupāda: No, no, it is religion or no religion. Suppose there is university, and if some religious sect says that "In our religion we shall not take university education."
Prabhupāda: Yes. So will the government accept?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In United States there is a group in Pennsylvania, and they say that they will not undergo any kind of normal education, because it is polluted, and they have their own education, and they are permitted. Even from six, seven years old, from first grade. They are called the Amish people. (some noise in background) That's not a door, Śrīla Prabhupāda. That's heavy dropping of heavy items.
Prabhupāda: Another point, in secular, the scientific knowledge, two plus two equal to four. If somebody says, "No, in our opinion it is five," will it be accepted?
Prabhupāda: If two plus two equal to four. If somebody says "In our opinion it should be five..."
Prabhupāda: Similarly, if government requires teaching the science that this body is not yourself, you are different from the body, if some other sect, they say, "That it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā; it is meant for the Hindus, not for us," will it be accepted?
Prabhupāda: Therefore the institution for teaching Bhagavad-gītā must be there. The science of life...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Dehino 'smin yathā dehe kaumāraṁ yauvanaṁ jarā [Bg. 2.13]. Kaumāra, childhood, yauvanam, youthhood, and jarā, old age, does it mean only for the Hindus?
Prabhupāda: Then how this science should be stopped for others? It is universal.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just as that Christian asked you, is Lord Jesus's teachings universal. The Christians, they say that Jesus's teachings are universal. So that means that they must be true.
Prabhupāda: And they accept yes, and we say.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Jesus said "Thou shalt not kill." This applies to all human beings. So if they say that about Jesus's teachings, why not about dehino 'smin yathā dehe [Bg. 2.13]? They should say.
Prabhupāda: The whole human society is being put into ignorance. How we can tolerate? We know the things. How we can hide it? Jñāna-khala. One who knows the thing, how he can hide it? He is called jñāna-khala. He has got the knowledge but he will not give it to anyone else.
Prabhupāda: How we can stop spreading Kṛṣṇa consciousness? It is not possible.
Prabhupāda: He cannot become Vaiṣṇava.
Prabhupāda: Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī, kṛpāmbudhi. My Guru Mahārāja used to say prāṇa āche yāṅra se'retu(?) pracāra. One who is living being, he can preach. Dead body cannot. One who is actually a living being, he can preach. And Caitanya Mahāprabhu said bhārata-bhūmite haila manuṣya-janma yāra [Cc. Ādi 9.41]. One who is a man, he will be interested in this. Cats and dogs, it is not possible. Bhārata-bhūmite haila kukkura-janma yāra, eka... Manuṣya. To give knowledge of Bhagavad-gītā, this is India's prerogative. And India can distribute this knowledge. And the government has to consent. And they are misinterpreting this. I wanted to fight them, but...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It will be a very interesting meeting, to see if he is actually willing to take some action. He'll hear and he may agree, but whether he will act, that we will see.
Prabhupāda: He may not act. That will be (indistinct).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing I am already doing is I am starting to compile a list of those that we want permanent residence for. I told Bhavānanda this morning already that he should tell me the names of those people in Bengal who he feels are qualified to remain permanently. So that way if suddenly we get some opportunity, I'll have the list all ready to submit. To me, of course, I am a little bit, tend towards pessimism, but I think that that is something we could actually hope for from this government. It won't be difficult...
Prabhupāda: Let me work with these foreigners, because you have taught Indian independence, and they are not coming. Therefore these foreign boys, they are helping me. So let them remain. What harm they are doing? Let them have permanent residence helping me. Their life, money, everything, why don't you allow me? Unnecessarily they have to go away and come again.
Prabhupāda: We are not... We have no interest in politics. What interest do we have in this phantasmagoria? We are not so fools. And there are so many people, they are taking part in politics. Is this sane?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That's the argument I always use when we are preaching to get someone to join. They say "Well, we want to be a doctor or we want to be..." I say there are already so many millions of doctors, so many, but there is only...
Prabhupāda: And doctor is canvassing, "You become my patient."
Prabhupāda: As soon as he wanted history I rejected him. He is not Ayurvedic. And Karttikeya was sorry that I did not give him for one and a half hour.
Prabhupāda: So everyone who will come I will have to give one and a half hour?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He wanted you to stop talking to the reporter and begin talking to the doctor. What good the doctor will do, but the reporter can do so much good.
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) [break] When I say do this, he can do that.
Prabhupāda: So one must be cooking expert.
Prabhupāda: And if Upendra can do like Bhavānanda, then it is very nice. Let him he trained up. He can do. (discussing cleaning of floor) Now it is black.
Prabhupāda: The more we do...
Prabhupāda: This is, this is marble.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah. Bhavānanda Mahārāja and I were just discussing this morning... We were looking at the shining, and we were discussing the difference between this marble and kota stone. Kota stone is very much inferior.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Kota, kota stone. You can never get it even smooth. It will always be uneven, because the stone is layers. So when they are polishing, some layers are higher than others. And marble is generally very first class.
Prabhupāda: You just don't hurry(?).
Prabhupāda: If he is intelligent, he can learn it in one day.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Otherwise, a few days. Bhavānanda was thinking at least four days he will remain. He has gotten a little bit attached to taking care of you.
Prabhupāda: So wipe this floor twice like this. Let him see. As he does very nicely, very nicely.
Prabhupāda: There is no doubt. How we can stop educating people about Bhagavad-gītā? It is most heinous mentality, such knowledge should be hidden from the human society. And some rascal will misinterpret.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yeah, your point yesterday was very nice that some things which are difficult, they may need explanations, but when Kṛṣṇa says, "Give it to Me," what is the question of a need of interpretation? That Radhakrishnan, immediately he gives his explanation: "It doesn't mean to Kṛṣṇa the person."
Prabhupāda: Just see. How rascal he is, and he is commenting. No, no, this is the rule, grammatical rule, that when things are clear, there is no interpretation.
Prabhupāda: Just like Sarvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya and Caitanya Mahāprabhu was talking. Caitanya said, "When the meaning is clear, why you are giving us this, nonsense?"
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Sarvabhauma asked Him, "You have sat here hearing vedānta for seven, eight days, but You have not said anything. Are You not understanding?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "I understand the vedānta, but I cannot understand your interpretation."
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi conversation) (takes prasādam) (end)
Room Conversation about Harijanas
April 10, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: Which photograph is it?
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1977/apr