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Room Conversation
with Ratan Singh Rajda M.P.
"Nationalism and Cheating"

April 15, 1977, Bombay
Giriraja: ...either in Kuruksetra or else in Vrndavana.
Prabhupada: So you suggested something?
Giriraja: Well, I suggested that he should have it in Vrndavana, and the delegates can stay in our guesthouse. So he liked the idea.
Prabhupada: When he is going to hold it?
Giriraja: Well, I think after a few months. I mean, this is just preliminary planning. One thing is, he does have a lot of faith in your words. I mean, he doesn't understand very much about Krsna consciousness, but... Like he wanted to know what you thought was coming in the future, so I told him that you had predicted that the Krsna consciousness movement would become stronger and stronger and that people would again become God conscious and so on. And he was really hanging on each word. He was very concerned. So then I said...
Prabhupada: No, no, mean... And who cares for Vinod Bhave? They are...
Giriraja: Well, he doesn't care.
Tamala Krsna: He doesn't?
Giriraja: Sentimentally he cares, but like...
Prabhupada: No, sentimentally, old man, pious man, everyone should care. Actually what he's done?
Giriraja: Actually, except for Your Divine Grace, no other leader has any real disciple because all of their followers, they have their own ideas, which they consider more than their master. Like Mr. Bajaj...
Prabhupada: Charismatic? What is the...? Tell.
Tamala Krsna: Charismatic.
Prabhupada: Our Dr. Stillson... "Charismatics..."
Tamala Krsna: Who? Dr. Stillson Judah?
Giriraja: Yeah, he said that.
Prabhupada: "Whatever he says, everyone believes."
Tamala Krsna: That's a fact. But Giriraja's point is well taken, that these other gurus, they may say that they have disciples, but their disciples are all independent.
Prabhupada: Not disciples. They are masters.
Giriraja: Right. that's right.
Tamala Krsna: Guru is a pet, you always say.
Prabhupada: Yes. My Guru Maharaja used to say, "They keep a pet dog. Their guru is keeping a pet dog."
Tamala Krsna: Swami Cinmayananda's like that.
Giriraja: They all are. This... When I was at Poona, so I was meeting this man, Mr. Trelaskar. So the next house is very wealthy widow, very wealthy widow, Sindhi lady, and one of the big gurus of Poona, this Baswami, Sadhu Baswami, so he comes and spends time at her house. It's really bad. And then here at... This morning on the beach, I went to chant my rounds. So there's another big swami, Swami Muktananda, and he was sitting on the beach. Some followers were there. And he's also staying with some, you know, rich disciple.
Tamala Krsna: Female.
Giriraja: Probably. I didn't know.
Tamala Krsna: He's very popular in America.
Prabhupada: Muktananda? Hm.
Giriraja: And, you know, he's such a rascal that he loves dogs. He keeps dogs in his asrama, and they're...
Prabhupada: Ordinary man.
Giriraja: Yeah, right, ordinary man, that's right. In a different dress, an ordinary man.
Prabhupada: And our is ei rupe brahmanda bhrami..., kona bhagyavan jiva. It is not for ordinary. Anyone who understands thoroughly Krsna consciousness, he's not ordinary man. He's liberated man. It is not for ordinary man. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, kona bhagyavan: "Somebody very fortunate." Not for ordinary man. Still, we are trying to give to the mass of people as far as possible.
Tamala Krsna: But we cannot compromise to do that.
Prabhupada: It is not for ordinary man.
Tamala Krsna: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Therefore I stopped all these child painting book and...
Tamala Krsna: Yeah. Prabhupada got some... One day, I remember, in Mayapura he received some pictures of children, painted, and actually you were not that impressed by it. I was surprised, 'cause I thought, "Well, this is very nice." But Prabhupada wasn't very pleased. He said, "This is not a sentimental process. They should be studying and speaking Sanskrit, reading, writing Sanskrit and English and study the books."
Prabhupada: So arrange for the State Bank coming as soon as possible. That will facilitate our business.
Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada wanted to know, Giriraja, whether you thought Bank of America would give interest on a savings account weekly. We know they're giving it on the fixed deposits.
Giriraja: I'll ask the manager.
Prabhupada: It is a charitable institution, so you'll... Why not give weekly?
Tamala Krsna: That Kun... If he says no for any reason ... [break] Here they come. (guests enter)
Prabhupada: Aiye. Hare Krsna. Thank you very ... Aiye.
Mr. Rajda: I have brought my Phalis, Mohendralal Phalis(?)
Prabhupada: Oh.
Mr. Rajda: Here is Mr. Raj(?) also.
Prabhupada: Betiye.
Mr. Rajda: My wife, Mrs. Rajda, my daughter, Mitsu. This is my nephew, younger brother's son.
Mrs. Rajda: (Hindi)
Mr. Rajda: How is your health now, Swamiji?
Prabhupada: Not very good, but as Krsna's mercy going on. These are some of our latest publications.
Mr. Rajda: Latest publications. The get-up and all this is wonderfully attractive.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Rajda: Primal faces(?) attracts the eye of the spectator, and contents are... No doubt, they are divine.
Prabhupada: Srimad-bhagavatam amalam puranam. This is the regrettable fact, that we have got in India the real knowledge.
Mr. Rajda: Real...?
Prabhupada: Real knowledge. And we have locked up that knowledge.
Mr. Rajda: We have locked up. That is the greatest crime we have committed.
Indian (1): We have not allowed it to grow all over the world.
Prabhupada: Jnana-khala. Sarasvati jnana-khale yatha sati. There is a verse like this in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Jnana-khale. If you have got some knowledge, you should distribute it. That will glorify you, not that "I have got some knowledge. I'll keep it secret." So India has got such exalted vast knowledge of spiritual life, and that is locked up. We are imitating the Western dog-dancing. This I wanted to bring to your notice. This will not do any good. So some arrangement should be made that this exalted knowledge of India must be distributed. That I have begun with my humble...
Mr. Rajda: No, that is very nicely done.
Prabhupada: But I have no co-operation of the authorities. That is most regrettable. So now there is change of government.
Mr. Rajda: Yes.
Prabhupada: And Morarji is very religious person.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, he is a highly religious man.
Prabhupada: So why not attempt? At least keep an ideal institution. Just like for technical knowledge, if there is a good medical college any part of the world, people go there without any consideration of nationality or anything. Similarly let there be an ideal institution in India so that the whole world will come in there.
Mr. Rajda: We had those universities, Taka(?), Silandar(?), and Narandhara...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Rajda: ...in ancient days.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Rajda: And people from all over the world were coming.
Prabhupada: So why don't you invite now?
Mr. Rajda: Quite.
Prabhupada: We go there for imitating their technology. But who comes here to learn something?
Mr. Rajda: Quite right, quite right.
Prabhupada: But we have got. The example is already set up. These boys, they have not come here for learning your cycle manufacturing. They have enough of it.
Mr. Rajda: That matter of cycle he is doing.
Prabhupada: And we are proud of manufacturing cycle and sewing machine. So that is my request, that I have started it. Make it an organized institution that the people from all parts of the world...
Mr. Rajda: Would come over here.
Prabhupada: ...would come here and learn this knowledge. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission is...
Mr. Rajda: Gaudiya mission.
Prabhupada: Not Gaudiya mission. Caitanya's mission, Lord Caitanya. You know Lord Caitanya.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, yes, yes, Caitanya Mahaprabhu.
Prabhupada: So He declares that bharata-bhumite manusya-janma haila yara: [Cc. Adi 9.41] "Anyone who has taken birth as human being, not cats and dogs..." Cats and dogs, they simply jump whole night: "Gow! Gow! Gow!" That is another... We find so many dogs, whole night busy, watching. Whose property he is watching? But he... He has got this business, very busy. As soon as some motorcycle or some..., "Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow! Gow!" watching, watching, watching. So therefore this is business of cats and dogs. But human being's business is different. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, bharata-bhumite haila manusya-janma yara: [Cc. Adi 9.41] "Anyone who has taken birth as a human being in India, bharata-bhumi..." Janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara: "First of all make your life perfect"you have got the opportunity, Vedic culture"and then distribute the knowledge all over the world for doing good to the whole human society." That will glorify the prestige of India. So why not continue this? Let there be an institution fully following the principles of Bhagavad-gita, Bhagavad-gita As It Is. Then people will be benefited. If you say, "It is secular," Bhagavad-gita is for every man. There is no question of Hindu, Muslim, Christian or this or that, no. When Krsna says,
dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati
[Bg. 2.13]
So this growing... A child is growing to become a boy. A boy is growing to become a young man. A young man is growing to become an old man. So what is the secular? Everyone grows. Does it mean, when it is spoken in the Bhagavad-gita, it is only meant for the Hindus?
Mr. Rajda: It is universal activities.
Prabhupada: It is universal, science. It is science. So why this science is kept locket up and distorted by the leaders? If you understand one line of Bhagavad-gita, your life becomes successful. Now our leaders are supposed to read Bhagavad-gita, but who understands this one line, tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]? Nobody understands. And they are scholars of Bhagavad-gita. They cannot understand this one line in the beginning. This is going on. So I would request you to take this matter seriously and... And it is being responded. I am writing these books on Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, and we are selling daily five to six lakhs' worth of books. In a foreign country, where their religious system is different, and during Christmas festival we are selling our books, large quantity.
Mr. Rajda: That's a novel thing, no, novel thing.
Prabhupada: So unless there is something substantial... They are intelligent.
Mr. Rajda: Intelligent people.
Prabhupada: Why they should accept this? And this is one man's attempt.
Mr. Rajda: It has got to be institutionalized.
Prabhupada: Yes. Why not make that? This political change, this political situation change, it will go on. Today you are powerful. Tomorrow I am powerful. That does not make any difference. Indira Gandhi was so powerful. In one day everything finished. So it may be finished, my position. Mohitam nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam [Bg. 7.13]. Tribhir gunamayair bhavaih. They do not know, behind these all activities there is a person who can do anything He likes. So what about to know about Him? So these things are there in India. The knowledge is not secret. It is open. So without distorting it, without breaking it and spoiling it, why not give it as it is for the benefit of the whole humanity? You are young man. You can think over.
Indian (1): With a commission.
Prabhupada: But...
Mr. Rajda: With your blessings... With your blessing I can be sure to be able to do something.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Rajda: Last time we had talked about this, and in Delhi, actually, I was on the verge of arranging the meeting, but never here. But then our Giriraja telephoned me, and in deference to your health we didn't arrange that meeting in Delhi. When Morarji-bhai is coming here, we shall see that...
Prabhupada: Yes. First of all you can talk. It is not expected that everyone will be able to understand. It is not expected.
It is not easy job. But still, some ideal institution should be there who are actually serious to understand. They may be given the chance. That must be there. In the university, when we were students, there were some postgraduate classes that no student was coming. But still, the university maintained that class, paying, in those days, 1,200, 1,500, salaries to the professors. They maintained that. So here there is no question of salary. Here the institution must be maintained, strictly following the principles of Bhagavad-gita. It is open. It is not difficult at all. Just like Krsna says the perfect life, how one can become perfect, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru: [Bg. 18.65] "Always think of Me," man-manah, "just become My devotee," mad-bhaktah, "worship me," mad-yaji mam namaskuru, "simply offer your obeisances unto Me." One, two, three, four-four items. If you do one item at least, your life becomes successful. Even this child can do this. So to understand Bhagavad-gita and follow the principlenot at all difficult. It is not reserved for any particular class of men or country or society, such a nice thing, and the human body is meant for understanding this knowledge, not to imitate the cats and dogs, jumping. This is being done by the cats and dogs. By evolutionary process, when we come to the human form of life, it is meant for understanding this science. So this opportunity there is, but we are blocking them not to take this knowledge and try to understand how to jump like cats and dogs. Greatest disservice to the human society. We have got such chance, so instead of helping you to get the chance, if I mislead you another way, is it not greatest disservice?
Mr. Rajda: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is being done all over the world. If you simply understand this one line, tatha dehantara-praptih... [Bg. 2.13]. So today I am Indian, and after death I become something else. There are 8,400,000 different bodies. Today I may be very exalted minister, and tomorrow, if I become something else... I'll have to, because nature's law, you cannot check. Tatha dehant... Just like here is child. You cannot check to become young man. That is not in your power. She must become or he must become. Similarly, tatha dehantara-praptih, it is not in your hand or in my hand. It is in the hand of the prakrti. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah, ahankara-vimudhatma [Bg. 3.27]. So there are so many things that... The human society requires this knowledge and we are trying to give this knowledge alone with our humble attempt, and these foreigners are helping with their pranair arthair dhiya vaca, by their life, by their money, by their intelligence, by their words. (aside:) Give them pad. They cannot sit comfortably. There is pad. Give him. Pads. Yes. No, no. Oh. (Hindi) Sukham asinah.(?) First of all one must... Give her. So we have got, at least in Bombay, the most important place in India, this institution. So come here. Try to understand the philosophy. There is no difficulty. But we neglect it. We are simply ne..., and distorting. Everyone is giving his own interpretation. Eh? Then when, where is the importance of Krsna? If Bhagavad-gita is a book who is authority, and if you interpret and give your own interpretation, then where is the authority? Suppose Parliament passes one law, and if I interpret in my own way, then where is the authority of the law? This is the idea. If you want to give some idea of your own, give it separately. Why do you take Bhagavad-gita and distort it? This is not gentlemanly, this. We are presenting, therefore, Bhagavad-gita as it is, and it is being accepted. And before me so many swamis, yogis went there. They also tried to explain Bhagavad-gita, but nobody accepted. There was... In the history there was not a single devotee of Krsna before my going. Now there are thousands. Why? The secret is that I am presenting as it is.
Mr. Rajda: As it is, quite.
Prabhupada: No distortion, no cheating. This is the secret. They give me credit, "Swamiji, you have done wonderful. You have done..." I say the secret of wonderful is this, that I have not distorted it. I have presented Bhagavad-gita as it is. It is open secret.
Mr. Rajda: That creates... It has created... Your attempts have created a good impact on the Western world.
Prabhupada: Everyone is doing(?). But we have rejected. Our misfortune is that our property, we have rejected.
Mr. Rajda: Instead of rejecting, it would be correct to say that we have locked it up.
Prabhupada: That means we don't take any importance. But now, if you want to do something, then you maintain this institution rigidly, follow the principles of Bhagavad-gita. It doesn't matter. It doesn't require many men. Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca tara sahasrasah. If there is one moon in the sky, that is sufficient. You don't require millions of stars, twinkling. So let there be an institution, and it is open to everyone. There is no question of "secular" and particular.... Let them learn this art. That is wanted. Not blindly, but apply your consideration and take it after mature judgment. No, what is that? Everything is there. There is no difficulty. Why you are neglecting this important business of India? Do you think it is right?
Mr. Rajda: One should not neglect. And as real it is done, it is better, not only for the world, for India also.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Rajda: Rejected... The impediment was that all those rulers, most of them gave up believing in religion.
Prabhupada: Why you are bringing religion? It is science. Why you are mistaking again? Is that religion, a child is growing to become a young man? Is that religion? It is science.
Mr. Rajda: But they do not look at from that perspective.
Prabhupada: That means rascals. They do not accept "Two plus two equal to four."
Mr. Rajda: Yeah, correct. Intelligent...
Prabhupada: If we do not take mathematics as it is, and if we interpret "Two plus two equal to three," that is rascaldom. "Two plus two equal to four," that is everywhere.
Mr. Rajda: Quite right. Everything is right. Now only put some concrete proposals, how do we want to proceed in this...
Prabhupada: The proposal is there. Here it is already done. The same principle, the four things, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru, mam evaisyasi asamsayah [Bg. 18.65]. These four principles, what is the difficulty? But if you are determined, "No, we shall not follow," then who can educate you? There is no loss. And if there is some gain, why not take it? We have to educate so many young men. So I think that harijana movement... You can bring that... That one gentleman, Dr. Parmar(?), you know him?
Mr. Rajda: Dr. Faramar?
Prabhupada: Yes?
Mr. Rajda: Faramar, I have... Yeah.
Prabhupada: He has regretted that "Government has spent so much money and we have tried, but we could not improve our position."
Tamala Krsna: This gentleman that Srila Prabhupada was mentioning is named Professor Parmar. He's written one article.
Prabhupada: Profess... Professor.
Mr. Rajda: Professor Parmar. Ah, ha, that is...
Prabhupada: He is the same man?
Mr. Rajda: No, that's a different.
Prabhupada: So they are hankering after for improving. Everyone is hankering. So let there be a demi-official, a regular institute to teach people the principles of Bhagavad-gita as it is. Bas. Don't distort it. Don't amend it. As it is. What is the objection?
Mr. Rajda: I can't find any objection.
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is accepted, and so far I understand that when Morarji was going to be arrested, he said that "Let me finish my reading of Bhagavad-gita." I read it in the paper.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, he was saying.
Prabhupada: So he... He's a devotee of Bhagavad-gita, and there are many others. So why this teaching should not be given to the whole world?
Mr. Rajda: Now, sir, daily he gets up at 3.30 a.m., does first of all his religious things, reading of Bhagavad-gita and all this. And that goes on for two, three hours. Then, at seven, he comes out of his room after taking his bath. Then he meets particular...
Prabhupada: And these foreign boys, they begin their, this Bhagavad-gita practice from 3.30 to 9.30. They have no other business. You see. You have studied our, this Giriraja. The whole day he's doing. They're all on this. From morning, 3.30, till they are tired, 9.30, simply Bhagavad-gita.
Mr. Rajda: Wonderful.
Prabhupada: And we have got so many materials. If we discuss on this one line, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13], it takes days to understand.
Mr. Rajda: Quite.
Prabhupada: Now, if this is fact, tatha dehantara-praptih and na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20], what we are doing for that? This is Bhagavad-gita. Na jayate na mriyate va kadacin na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. So when my body is destroyed, I am going... [break] ...from door to door, selling the books and sending money. We are pushing on our mission in the way. I am not getting any help neither from the government, from the public. And the record is there in the Bank of America, how much foreign exchange I am bringing. Even in this feeble health also, I am working four hours at least, at night. And they are also helping me. So this is our individual attempt. Why not come here? If you are actually very serious student of Bhagavad-gita, why don't you come, cooperate? And harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna manorathenasati dhavato... [SB 5.18.12]. You cannot make public honest simply by legislation. That is not possible. Forget it. That is not possible. Harav abhaktasya kuto.... Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana sarvaih... If you, if one becomes devotee of the Lord, all good qualities will be there. And harav abhaktasya kuto mahad... If he's not a devotee... Now so many things, condemnation, is going on, big, big leaders. Today's paper I have seen. "This man, that man, is rejected even." Why? Harav abhaktasya kuto. What is the benefit of becoming a big leader if he's not a devotee? (Hindi) You are very intelligent, young, and therefore I am trying to give you some idea, and if you can give some shape to these ideas... It is already there. It is no secret. Simply we must be serious, that this institution must be there for educating the whole human society. Never mind, a very small number. It doesn't matter. But ideal must be there.
Mr. Rajda: That is right, correct. If it is possible at all...
Giriraja: No, no difficulty. No, no, no. No difficulty.
Prabhupada: And we are prepared to challenge or meet challenge of any scientist, any philosopher, any politician, anyone. It is not dogmatic.
Mr. Rajda: Not dogmatic at all.
Prabhupada: The same: it is science. And Krsna says, begins, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13], kaumaram yauvanam jara. So who can say anything against this statement? Avajananti mam mudhah [Bg. 9.11]. But unfortunately our people takes Krsna as ordinary human being, as... Avajananti mam mudhah. If we remain mudha, how we can be...? Because Krsna comes just like a human being to teach us, we are taking that He's one of us. "Then I can also become Krsna." This is going on. For so many thousands of years Krsna is being worshiped as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There are millions of temples in India for worshiping Krsna. He is ordinary man? So many big, big leaders came and gone. Who care for them? Why Krsna is being worshiped still? These are the questions.
Indian (1): It is universal message.
Prabhupada: Now universal. Yes, we have got recent pictures from our different temples. Just see how they are being worshiped. This is in foreign countries. They have got their own religion. Why they should worship Krsna? (Hindi)
Mr. Rajda: Yeah, the entire get up is really perfect.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) Prasada? (pause) What is the circulation of our this paper?
Tamala Krsna: Of our magazine?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: One million copies per month.
Mr. Rajda: One million copies.
Tamala Krsna: That's in English only. Then it also is published in Spanish and Portuguese, German, French, Dutch, Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, Bengali...
Prabhupada: Gujarati.
Tamala Krsna: Gujarati, Telegu. Recently we came out with Hungarian publication. (pause)
Indian (1): Swamiji, your idea is to have some international institution.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is international.
Indian (1): No, we must made to speak your needs of the mankind...
Prabhupada: Yes, they are following. They are following. I want to make it more speedy, but I have no help. Now, for the time being... Now these boys are helping me, and government is driving them away: "Get out! Get out!" Can you not help me in this?
Mr. Rajda: Correct. Actually ...
Prabhupada: No Indians are coming. I am bringing men and money from there, and government is driving them: "Get out!" This is my position. And if one boy goes back and again comesten thousand rupees. In this way I am losing five to six lakhs of rupees per yearfor nothing. This is the co-operation of the government.
Mr. Rajda: But why the government is driving them out?
Prabhupada: This, your so-called visa.
Tamala Krsna: They won't give us the proper visas so we can stay.
Prabhupada: Just like I have got in America permanent residence. So why not give them permanent resident?
Mr. Rajda: Correct. But this problem could be settled very easily.
Prabhupada: Kindly do that. At least...
Mr. Rajda: No, I didn't know. Just now I came to know. This... I can touch this...
Indian (1): That's why we want some concrete things from you.
Mr. Rajda: That's why...
Prabhupada: That will be a great help immediately.
Mr. Rajda: That I'll do immediately. Now only... That's why I was just inquiring what concrete thing you would like to do.
Prabhupada: Immediately kindly help me, that give at least one hundred men permanent residential permission. They are not politicians. They are not interested. They are devotee. Then I can manage this big, big establishment like Bombay, Vrndavana.
Mr. Rajda: Now tell me with your men written over all this(?). I will give you immediately.
Prabhupada: Have you got that, made any list...?
Tamala Krsna: I called for the names, so within a short time.
Prabhupada: That's all. Name is there. So this is the...
Indian (1): First progress thing.
Mr. Rajda: No, no, we'll do this immediately, and even if necessary, I will fight with the government. They have got to do it. Only thing is if you can give me some note, what are the hurdles...
Prabhupada: Bring some paper. Write it. Immediately begin to do this. They are coming from very rich, respectable family. They have not come here to earn money for exploit India. They have no business to do this. I can guarantee that they will bring money from America and live herenot touch a single paisa of India. Now, suppose there are one hundred Americans, and if I am bringing ten lakhs of rupees per month, then what is the per capita?
Mr. Rajda: Per capita will show...
Giriraja: Ten thousand.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Indian (1): I... Yeah, complete list. That is why I asked you, "What first step you wanted to?"
Prabhupada: Kindly help.
Indian (1): Concrete step.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian (1): That, Mr. Ratensingh is bound to do.
Prabhupada: Kindly help me.
Mr. Rajda: No, no, we will think ourselves duty-bound. Oh, I feel intensely about it. There is no question about it.
Prabhupada: And I guarantee that if they take any part in politics, you can drive away immediately. They have no.... They have given everything. They are not thinking that they are Americans. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. This is the process of bhakti. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam. Upadhi. This is upadhi. I am living being, but I have got some designation, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim." These are designation. So then they are M.P... This is designation. You are not M.P... You are living being, part and parcel of God.
Mr. Rajda: Correct.
Prabhupada: And this designation can be moved, removed at any moment. Indira Gandhi, no more prime minis... Designation finished. So sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170], when one become free all designation, tat-paratvena nirmalam, simply by Krsna consciousness he becomes purified. Hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhakti... Then bhakti begins.
This is the preliminary condition. So it means as soon as they have become devotee, they have no more designation. This conception is not there: "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim"no.
Mr. Rajda: Right. Very good.
Prabhupada: Finished. Nirmala. So... So you are giving note?
Tamala Krsna: What would you like in the note?
Mr. Rajda: Just the problem that you...
Prabhupada: Write. What I am saying, write him and give him. This is the most important point.
Mr. Rajda: Are there any local problems still surviving?
Prabhupada: Our local problem... Now, what about the municipality?
Tamala Krsna: Yes, that's there.
Prabhupada: Write. Why don't you write immediately?
Mr. Rajda: Just give me a note. Wherever I can help, I will definitely do it. There is complaint, if you... First of all, about this visa, which is very difficult to be removed, and now...
Prabhupada: In a nice paper you note.
Tamala Krsna: Yes, I'm going to type it down, Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Yes. Do it immediately. In the Bhagavata it is said that one hasn't got to learn Bhagavata, but if he simply says, "Yes, it is is very nice," he gets some good result. Similarly, our movement is such that if simply one appreciates, "Yes, it is good..." Your chief minister has accepted, Maharastra chief minister.
Devotee (2): Yes, Chawan.
Prabhupada: Where is that cutting that was published? He came, all, in Punjab. So there is no doubt about it, that this is the best humanitarian activities. So kindly help us as far as possible.
Mr. Rajda: No, I think myself duty-bound. It is very important.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. (Hindi)
Mr. Rajda: I have talked with him also. He's always with me in this public life, right from the beginning.
Prabhupada: You were also M.P.?
Indian (1): No, I was municipal councilor.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Mr. Rajda: He was a municipal councilor here in Bombay.
Prabhupada: Oh, the municipal councilor... (Hindi) What is that?
Devotee (3): It's Chawan's cutting from the newspaper.
Prabhupada: Why don't you read other? Read it loudly.
Bhakti-caru: "Chief Minister lauds Krishna movement. Krsna consciousness was the essence of every faith and belonged to the world, Maharastra Chief Minister Mr. M. P. Chawan said at the Third International Hare Krishna Festival at the Cross Maidan in Bombay on Wednesday. Mr. Chawan lauded the work done by Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, Founder-Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. He said that Swami was responsible for popularizing Krsna consciousness all over the world. Speaking after the chief minister, Swami Prabhupada emphasized the need for scientific understanding of the Bhagavad-gita to solve the problems confronting humanity. 'When human society is without dharma,' he said, 'it becomes animal society.' The festival, scheduled to end on Tuesday, has been extended another five days."
Prabhupada: So his wife also...
Mr. Rajda: But now, poor fellow, he's also going. That is his fate.
Prabhupada: That's all. This is political struggle. It doesn't matter. A man is what he is. That's all. And to come to this field of activities, one has to become free from all designation. "I am the chief minister" or this or that, that is designation. So I have to give up.
Mr. Rajda: It's a temporary thing.
Prabhupada: Temporary thing. We should not be bothering about these temporary things. And it is meant for the rulers. Bhagavad-gita, in the fourth chapter,
Devotees: Imam rajarsayo viduh.
Prabhupada: Imam rajarsayo viduh. It is meant for the rulers, rajarsi, not for the loafers. Imam rajarsayo viduh. (Hindi) Our, this monarchy was there, but they were rajarsis, monarch, at the same time, great saintly person. Therefore they were worshiped, Maharaja Yudhisthira, Maharaja Pariksit, Maharaja Ambarisa. They are not autocrat. Imam rajarsayo viduh. They understood the science of Bhagavad-gita from saintly person, exalted brahmanas. They ruled. You'll find in Srimad-Bhagavatam this Maharaja Pariksit, grandson of Arjuna. His father died when he was in the womb of his mother. So all, everyone died. Only these five brother remained. And Pariksit Maharaja, the grandson of Arjuna, he was in the womb of his mother Uttara. So he was also attempted to be killed by Asvatthama by brahmastra. Krsna saved him. So anyway, the grandfathers took care of this child, baby in the womb. And when he was born... This is a ceremony, jata-karma. Just after birth there is a ceremony. This is now gone, dasa, dasa-karana... Nobody is... So they are making horoscope, the brahmanas. "So this child will be like this, like this, like this, like this," Yudhisthira Maharaja's question was that "What you are speaking, that is all right. Whether this child will be to their forefathers' reputation, how to give happiness to the subjects, praja-palana?" He was anxious, "How much he will be qualified, praja-palana, how to keep the prajas very happy? First of all see that." This was the test, praja-palana. And it is stated in this Bhagavatam... Now find out this ruling of Yudhisthira Maharaja, that chapter, first part. So there was not even disease during his reign. Adayo vyadhayah.(?)There was no extreme heat, there was no extreme cold, on account of his rajarsi. And their only business was to see... And Lord Ramacandra. How He was maintaining subjects like father. Therefore people are still hankering after rama-rajya. There is a chapter, "Maharaja Yudhisthira's Regime." See the Contents. (pause)
Devotee (2): This is when Maharaja Yudhisthira was retiring, or before?
Prabhupada: No, when he was ruling.
Devotee (2): Ruling, yeah.
Prabhupada: The reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira, there is chapter.
Devotee (3): Shall I read?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee (3): "Maharaja Yudhisthira, whose enemy was never born, performed his daily morning duties by praying, offering fire sacrifice to the sun-god, and offering obeisances, grains, cows, land and gold to the brahmanas. He then entered the palace to pay respects to the elderly. However, he could not find his uncles or aunt, the daughter of King Subala." Should I read the purport?
Prabhupada: No. What is the sloka?
ajata-satruh krta-maitro hutagnir
vipran natva tila-go-bhumi-rukmaih...
Prabhupada: No, the sloka is, beginning is sarva-dugha mahi, like that. Parjanyah... (pause) Ah. Kamam vavarsa parjanyah sarva-kama-dugha mahi [SB 1.10.4]. Find out this verse.
Giriraja: I can find it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Giriraja: About how the... There's one... No, 1.2
Prabhupada: This is the verse, kamam vavarsa parjanyah sarva-kama-dugha mahi [SB 1.10.4]. (Hindi) So vast knowledge.
Giriraja: Should I read?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Giriraja: "During the reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira the clouds showered all the water that people needed."
Prabhupada: Yes. Read the original verse.
Giriraja: Oh, I'm sorry.
Prabhupada: Translation?
Giriraja: "During the reign of Maharaja Yudhisthira the cloud showered all the water that people needed, and the earth produced all the necessities of man in profusion. Due to its fatty milk bag and cheerful attitude, the cow used to moisten the grazing ground with milk."
Prabhupada: (Hindi) Now read the purport.
Lokanatha: "The basic principle of economic development is centered on the land and cows. The necessities of human society are food grains..."
Prabhupada: About the land and cows, this is Bhagavad-gita, mentioned, krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Never recommends factory. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg. 18.44]. So there is no question of giving protection to the cows if it gives milk only. No. Go-raksya. There must be protection to the cow. This is Krsna consciousness. Even the cows pass urine and stool, that is beneficial. And if it gives milk, then there is no question. Hm. What is that?
Lokanatha: "The necessities of human society are food grains, fruits, milk, minerals, clothing, wood, etc. One requires all these items to fulfill the material needs of the body. Certainly one does not require flesh and fish or iron tools and machinery. During the regime of Maharaja Yudhisthira, all over the world there were regulated rainfalls. Rainfalls are not in the control of the human being. The heavenly King Indradeva is the controller of rains, and he is the servant of the Lord. When the Lord is obeyed by the king and the people under the king's administration, there are regulated rains from the horizon, and these rains are the causes of all varieties of production on the land. Not only do regulated rains help ample production of grains and fruits, but when they combine with astronomical influences there is ample production of valuable stones and pearls. Grains and vegetables can sumptuously feed a man and animals, and a fatty cow delivers enough milk to supply a man sumptuously with vigor and vitality. If there is enough milk, enough grains, enough fruit, enough cotton, enough silk and enough jewels, then why do the people need cinemas, houses of prostitution, slaughterhouses, etc.? What is the need of an artificial luxurious life of cinema, cars, radio, flesh and hotels? Has this civilization produced anything but quarreling individually and nationally? Has this civilization enhanced the cause of equality and fraternity by sending thousands of men into a hellish factory and the war fields at the whims of a particular man?
It is said here that the cows used to moisten the pasturing land with milk because their milk bags were fatty and the animals were joyful. Do they not require, therefore, proper protection for a joyful life by being fed with a sufficient quantity of grass in the field? Why should men kill cows for their selfish purposes? Why should man not be satisfied with grains, fruits and milk, which, combined together, can produce hundreds and thousands of palatable dishes. Why are there slaughterhouses all over the world to kill innocent animals? Maharaja Pariksit, grandson of Maharaja Yudhisthira, while touring his vast kingdom, saw a black man attempting to kill a cow. The King at once arrested the butcher and chastised him sufficiently. Should not a king or executive head protect the lives of the poor animals who are unable to defend themselves? Is this humanity? Are not the animals of a country citizens also? Then why are they allowed to be butchered in organized slaughterhouses? Are these the signs of equality, fraternity and nonviolence?
Therefore, in contrast with the modern, advanced, civilized form of government, an autocracy like Maharaja Yudhisthira's is by far superior to a so-called democracy in which animals are killed and a man less than an animal is allowed to cast votes for another less-than-animal man.
We are all creatures of material nature. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that the Lord Himself is the seed-giving father and material nature is the mother of all living beings in all shapes. Thus mother material nature has enough foodstuff both for animals and for men, by the grace of the Father Almighty, Sri Krsna. The human being is the elder brother of all other living beings. He is endowed with intelligence more powerful than animals for realizing the course of nature and the indications of the Almighty Father. Human civilizations should depend on the production of material nature without artificially attempting economic development to turn the world into a chaos of artificial greed and power only for the purpose of artificial luxuries and sense gratification. This is but the life of dogs and hogs."
Prabhupada: Simply fighting. They are not peaceful. That's all. Where is peace? You'll be surprised. During gas scarcity the gas was being supplied in Honolulu. This was in our presence. So the gas supply, whatever they had, distributed, and they had one sign board, "No more gas." So next man was so angry that he shot him dead. Just see. He had no more gas; he cannot supply. He became so much infuriated that he shot him dead. This is the result of this modern motorcar civilization. He thought that "Gas will not be supplied. Then I am gone. I am finished. So kill this man." This is education. (Hindi) Provided we train at least some ideal men, everything can be done. Everything is there. There is no scarcity of knowledge in India. We have to simply take it and practically apply it, bas. (Hindi) We are not sentimental (laughs) religious group. Everything practical. Krsna consciousness is not like that, sentiment. Everything scientific, practical, for the good of the whole human society. Therefore I require that this must be pushed on for the whole human society, and naturally India also. (aside:) The prasadam arrangement is...? You give each item, one each... No, no, give me, give me, give... This is... Each item, you give one. I have got this ambition that Indian culture should be spread, and otherwise what can I do wherever...?
Mr. Rajda: And you have already done lot of great, noble work.
Prabhupada: Yes, they say at least.
Mr. Rajda: It is a great movement. Naturally your Bhagavad-gita should be given importance. It must be delivered to every corner of the world.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Rajda: It is your...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Rajda: ...desire, I put it.
Prabhupada: They'll be happy. They're suffering. (Hindi) Is that civilization? "You could not supply me petrol. I shot you." What is this? How much animalistic a human being can be. (aside:) Wake up. Kama esa krodha esah. The people are being educated to become too much lusty, and as soon as their lust is not fulfilled, they'll be angry. Kama esa krodha esa rajo-guna-samudbhavah. And the krodha was, anger was so intense that he killed another person. No consideration that "What he can do? The petrol is finished." He simply says, "Now my stock is finished." So therefore he should be killed?
Mr. Rajda: Now this information will.... I shall be interested to read from it.
Prabhupada: So where is that note? Bring. (Hindi) Those who are assisting me, let them have permanent visa so that I can work this way.
Mr. Rajda: Correct.
Prabhupada: And I am unnecessarily spending five to six lakhs of rupees.
Mr. Rajda: No, this was not mentioned, never mentioned before me. I will definitely take it up when I go to Delhi. And then on 25th, the first thing I'll do...
Prabhupada: No, we approached that Brahmananda Reddy.
Mr. Rajda: Reddy's not there. They are all gone.
Prabhupada: No, before that I met him.
Indian (1): Now Your Grace will have to speak either with the prime minister straight, and he will swiftly done.
Mr. Rajda: No, that was the... The prime minister himself will nullify(?). No, he will immediately grasp what is the... 'Cause I have already talked...
Prabhupada: When I was in Delhi, there was one day a meeting at Brahmananda's place, so I personally requested. So he noted down. That's all. So he's the chief man, home member.
Indian (1): Home member. But the last day his powers were very much limited in home matter. He had to look after the home ministry. And possibly...
Mr. Rajda: There was too much power struggle in those days. That is the main difficulty...
Prabhupada: In Delhi...
Mr. Rajda: Everyone was struggling for his own existence in that power, in that... Some of the people...
Indian (1): Now we have got a government. The chief man of the...
Prabhupada: Government.
Indian (1): ...the team, he is an intensely religious-minded man.
Prabhupada: That is...
Indian (1): Delivering Bhagavad-gita.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian (1): Practicing the principle of Bhagavad-gita. So to him we can appeal.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian (1): And it will, appeal go straight home.
Prabhupada: And therefore I am so much on the..., that a man, harav abhakta. He is bhagavad-bhakta. (Hindi) This is another proposition.
"Anyone who has no devotional life, for him, belonging to the great family great nation, jati..." Bhagavad-bhakti-hinasya jatih tapah. "All austerity, penance, everything is just like decorating the dead body." Just like a body minus life, so what is the use of decorating with sal and silcram(?). Similarly, any person who may be very highly posted, but if he has no bhagavad-bhakti, then it is decoration.
That is little applause from the foolish public. Otherwise...
Lokanatha: The requisition finished in next few minutes.
Prabhupada: How many minutes? They have been detaining few minutes. Just bring immediately. You cannot detain all these important men. They have got other business.
Mr. Rajda: No, there is no other thing. Only thing, the roads are functioning, Bombay, and I have to visit them.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is that?
Tamala Krsna: "To Ratansingh Rajda, Member of Parliament, Bombay. Dear Sri Rajda, We thank you very much for visiting us at Hare Krishna Land and for sympathetically hearing our divine master Srila Prabhupada. His Divine Grace mentioned several difficulties which are impeding his great work, and you have been kind enough to promise to remove these obstacles. 1) Our men are regularly being asked to leave India. How can we manage such important projects when our men are forced to leave? Every year we have to send so many men away from India and then again we have to bring them back. For every man who comes and goes like this, we have to spend Rs. 10,000, and in this way we are wasting not less than Rs. five to six lakhs each year. Our men should be given permanent residence in India. The United States Government granted Srila Prabhupada a permanent residency visa so that he could fulfill his mission in the USA. Similarly, Srila Prabhupada's foreign disciples should be given permanent residency in India. Srila Prabhupada requires at least one hundred men to remain in India, and he is prepared to bring Rs. ten lakhs, foreign exchange, per month just to maintain them. They will not have to seek employment, they are not interested in politics, and they will not touch one paisa locally for their maintenance. Rather, they will bring money. Therefore we request that the government of India should grant permission for at least one hundred of our men. 2) Locally we are being troubled by the municipal corporation. The local councilor is trying to take over ten feet..." [break]
Mr. Rajda: ...evening. And we shall see what is in the meeting. And I am meeting the commissioner also on Tuesday. So...
Prabhupada: Note it.
Tamala Krsna: I'll do that.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Tamala Krsna: I'm putting in an envelope.
Prabhupada: Bring. I want that at least at the weekend respectable gentlemen come here, live here, try to understand the philosophy, and if possible render some service. That's all. We have got now nice building. Every room is air conditioned. Not that you have to go to the jungle. (laughs)
Mr. Rajda: No, it's a nice atmosphere.
Prabhupada: For us, we can live underneath a tree. But if I would have lived underneath a tree, you would not have come. (laughter) Therefore this building is required. So give them, one each, this magazine, latest edition. Here is. Mr. Rajda, Mr. Parik. Rajda's copy is in the red binding? That's it. No. Give him. Give him.
Mr. Rajda: So we thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much for your coming. Hare Krsna. Jaya. (Hindi)
Mr. Rajda: Before leaving, I will come again, after 24th, here.
Indian (1): Thereafter, I will come, no? Once in a week or at least a fortnight.
Prabhupada: And you are Parik.
Indian (1): Yes.
Prabhupada: You can study whether we are genuine or bogus, pariks.(?) Thank you. Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Devotees: Haribol!
Prabhupada: Jaya. (Hindi) (guests leave) What is that?
Devotee (2): I'm just fixing the bedspread.
Prabhupada: We have got these chairs. Why you should use apara(?)...
Tamala Krsna: Yeah. No more of these...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: ...for guests.
Prabhupada: This may be... Make it comfortable.
Tamala Krsna: From now on, I'll... [break]
Prabhupada: That is not possible in the dog. A human being can do. So this opportunity is there, and people are not giving them this opportunity. This is the greatest harmful civilization. They are keeping them in ignorance for that. Anyway, if people agree to take our guidance, we can change the face of the world. That is a fact. Whole world will be peaceful immediately.
Tamala Krsna: Maybe a possible name for this could be "Krsna: Messiah of the Harijanas." 'Cause he published, "Who is..." They need a messiah.
Prabhupada: Every one of us messiah. Anyone Krsna conscious, he's the messiah. Every one. Why one? All of us. Gaurangera bhakta-gane, jane jane sakti dhari, brahmanda tari saksi(?): "The devotee of Lord Caitanya, every one has so immense power that every one, they can deliver the whole universe." Gaurangera bhakta-jane, jane jane sakti..., brahmanda tari... That is Gauranga's men.
Tamala Krsna: Only you are that powerful, Srila Prabhupada. We're like...
Prabhupada: Why you are not? You are my disciples.
Tamala Krsna: We're like the bugs.
Prabhupada: "Like father, like son." You should be. Gaurangera bhakta..., jane. Everyone. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. He asked everyone, "Just become guru." Follow His instruction. You become guru. Amara ajnaya. Don't manufacture ideas. Amara ajnaya. "What I say, you do. You become a guru." Where is the difficulty? "And what is Your ajna?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Bas. Everything is there in the Bhagavad-gita. You simply repeat. That's all. You become guru. To become a guru is not difficult job. Follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and speak what Krsna has said. Bas. You become guru.
Tamala Krsna: We live in Bombay 54. This man lives in Bombay 52.
Prabhupada: So it is somewhere near.
Tamala Krsna: It must be pretty near.
Giriraja: I think, Bandara(?).
Tamala Krsna: First rows(?).
Giriraja: Bandara or Khar(?).
Prabhupada: So contact him. If he's sincere, let him cooperate with us. We'll make everything nice. And if they want to eat hog's flesh and wine, at the same time become harijana, (laughs) that is not possible.
Tamala Krsna: So there's certain stipulations to our taking responsibility for the one hundred million harijanas.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. We can take them. Why one hundred million? Whole universe we can take. It is Krsna ... Method is simple: you have to follow Caitanya Mahaprabhu and speak Bhagavad-gita. Bas. Where is the difficulty? Why one hundred million? All, whole universe we can take, provided they are prepared. Our business is not difficult. What Caitanya Mahaprabhu has said we have to execute and speak Bhagavad-gita. Bas. What I am doing? These two things are. Not at all. But these rascal will not take. They will manufacture their own way of life. That is the... That is dog's obstinacy. Therefore Rsabhadeva says, "Don't become hog and dog here." Nayam deho deha-bhajam kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam. The difficulty is that you can preach nice thing, but they will not accept.
Giriraja: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then what can be done? A man has fallen in the dark well, crying. You give him one rope: "Catch it." But he'll not catch. Then how you can deliver? Let him suffer. So he had asked him to go to the municipal...?
Giriraja: Yes, 3:30 on Monday. These M.P.'s are just here for a few days, and they have very busy schedule. So I have arranged for one man to come tomorrow. He can see you... [break]
Prabhupada: So? Now, this nationalism idea, so you have trace out the whole history. By introducing this nationalism, what improvement gave? Nationalism, the leader, it began in Europe, the Romans. They wanted to spread. Where are the Romans now? Carthagian, old history, Egyptian, Grecian, then, later on, Moguls or then British. So where are these groups? "Combined together, exploit others." That was, that means, a gang of rogues. Rogues and thieves, they... And by doing that, what they have actually done? The Romans, now their broken buildings are there. And people go to see the fun, how they used to enjoy. What is that called?
Tamala Krsna: Coliseum. That's the Greek Coliseum, they...
Prabhupada: By keeping one lion and fighting him and it is enjoyed. What is this? What they have gained? In this way, the privileged... Is it not subject perception? What Napoleon has done? Or Hitler has done? Or Churchill has done?
Tamala Krsna: What about nationalism here in India?
Prabhupada: They are imitating. What Gandhi has done? These things are cheating, spoiled. Then they have now a slogan to drive away poverty. Vivekananda imitated, daridra-narayana-seva. So Vivekananda started his mission in India hundred years ago. Why there are so many daridras lying on the street at night? Hm? Everywhere. Here you can say, "India is poverty-stricken." That is your imagination. Accepting that, those who are materially opulent, why they are also, they're lying on the street? Why in Bowery Street they are lying on the street? Why in the Bedford Park English boys are lying on street?
Tamala Krsna: I don't know... One verse can be quoted that because of one's connection with the modes of material nature...
Prabhupada: Amsterdam, who they, lying on the street in center of Europe? What have they done about these poor? On the other hand, the poor have learned how to utilize unrestricted sex and indulge in gambling and intoxication.
Tamala Krsna: For example, in America we find that the less intelligent persons are engaging in illicit sex life, so naturally they have more children, and they're eating meat, so the children are very...
Prabhupada: And female... And women, girls.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah.
Prabhupada: As the man becomes unrestricted in sex life, he has no potency. Either he becomes impotent or he can bring out some girls. We see practically from our association. Mostly they are begetting girls.
Tamala Krsna: From our what, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Our association.
Tamala Krsna: Our society.
Prabhupada: Those who are married society. These boys are begetting mostly girl, because they have lost their potency.
Tamala Krsna: I know most of our life members, because they're a little bit regulated, mostly sons-three sons, one daughter; four sons, one daughter. It's very common.
Prabhupada: Yes. If not equal quality...
Tamala Krsna: At least...
Prabhupada: So we have to touch all these. Then poverty... And "Drive away poverty. Give them more money." More money means cheating. You are employing; I am employed. Begins from government. More money and printing, they are coming. If I have got power to print paper and distribute it as money, you are dissatisfied, getting hundred rupees, you want two hundred, so what is to me? I print and give you. This is artificial inflation.
Tamala Krsna: More money means printing more bills.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, but you haven't increased the...
Prabhupada: And your enemy country, they're actually happy. They print exactly money like this. They come and purchase goods and give you fortune, anybody. I know. Then what is the difficulty? Suppose this American dollar, is it very difficult to print? So the Chinese, they are America's enemy, they can print, bring millions of dollars and purchase from your country and export to his country and give you some paper. You are... What you can do?
Tamala Krsna: Well, we can only hope that we'll catch them. We hope that we'll catch them.
Prabhupada: That is another thing, "when we catch." Who will catch? "Bell the cat." It is going on. I know. During wartime, one Chinese man was coming from China, and one business friend, he was appointed his purchasing agent. He was giving a list of goods to purchase. And this man, whatever money he'll charge, he'll immediately-Indian currency. He'll not say, "Why so much price?" No. Then he will pack up the goods and through some channel he'll dispatch it. That is also through our way, not in the... The China is in on the border. There also, if you pay money, smuggler's rate... They try to do.
Tamala Krsna: That seems to be a big issue now, these smugglers. I notice in the newspapers every day.
Prabhupada: The smugglers get with money, printed money. Who can check it?
Tamala Krsna: So printed money should have gold behind it.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the theory. What is the rate of economy?
Tamala Krsna: What is the idea...
Prabhupada: That is called...
Tamala Krsna: Gold standard.
Prabhupada: Not gold standard, but there is a technical name. That means if you print notes, currency note, immediately you have to keep stock of gold in the reserve bank. Reserve. Therefore it is called...
Tamala Krsna: The gold reserves.
Prabhupada: Gold reserve. Gold reserve, yes. At least forty percent.
Tamala Krsna: What's the idea behind that?
Prabhupada: What is that? The idea is cheating. The cheating business begins from the government. And why people will not learn to cheat? This is cheating. I am giving you one paper, one hundred rupees, dollars, and you are happy: "I have got so many ..." I am giving you check, ten thousand dollars. You got ten thousand dollars. Now I give you a paper. But it is going on. We have made machinery in such a way that it will go on in hundred rupees or ten thousand rupees. Just like this fixed deposit. I am giving actual money; they are giving a receipt. And it will increase. What increase? The same paper. And gradually inflation is going on. They'll pay at the inflation rate.
Tamala Krsna: Well, they say they're paying at the investment rate.
Prabhupada: That is, mean, their plea. Really, today... Just like in our childhood my father had three hundred rupees, and that three hundred rupees is now ten thousand. So if my father would have deposited three hundred rupees at that time, automatically he has become ten thousand... So if you pay me instead of three hundred, say, six hundred or eight hundred, what is your loss? It has already become ten thousand.
Tamala Krsna: Well, it's practical also, because supposing I have a cow...
Prabhupada: But it may be... This cheating is going on.
Tamala Krsna: But is it... What I'm asking is this: Supposing you have a cow, and you give to me a cow, so from that cow I get from you...
Prabhupada: That I understand, that in twenty years you get another..., same money. That is another. But another side is the money is gradually losing its purchasing value.
Tamala Krsna: That's a fact. That's a fact.
Prabhupada: My father with three hundred rupees, he was... What he was doing? If you want to do that thing now, you'll require ten thousand.
Tamala Krsna: That means some cheating is going on.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Government, through the government.
Prabhupada: Somewhere or other. Things are there. The rice are there, the dal is there, the cloth is there, but what he purchased at three hundred rupees, now you have to pay ten thousand.
Tamala Krsna: That means they've introduced more and more notes without any gold in their banks. Very dangerous.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Cheating. That's cheating.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: What is the implication of this cheating? What are the ramifications, the results?
Prabhupada: Result is that as we say always, that conditioned soul has a tendency to cheat. So they are utilizing this conditional qualification.
Tamala Krsna: With which result?
Prabhupada: Result is nothing. Therefore we say it is dogs' race, imagination that "We are becoming happy." He's becoming implicated in karma, cheating karma, and losing the opportunity of human life. Instead of applying his energy and intelligence how to become Krsna conscious and get out of this, he is becoming expert in cheating and suffering. Then you become mouse. Unless you cheat, you cannot eat even.
Tamala Krsna: So the leaders of government, they are encouraging like that. Instead of encouraging honesty and work according to the varnas, catur-varnyam, they are doing like this to become...
Prabhupada: There is no honesty all over the world. It is a forgotten. "These are primitive," they say, "Now, the honesty, to become pious, to become religious. These are simply primitive idea." We have to open this. That is a specific subject matter of that... But we have to write very nicely. Everything is based on tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13].
Tamala Krsna: The rascals also argue that... The materialists argue that we're being cheated.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Tamala Krsna: The materialists' argument is that we are being cheated by being promised something imaginary.
Prabhupada: We are not discussing that, but you are cheatingthat is practical. You are cheating. Your government is cheating, giving a piece of paper, cheating me that "You get hundred rupees."
Tamala Krsna: And their cheating in so many... Just like they were paying ninety rupees for a vasectomy, to make someone impotent, to make them sterile, they're giving ninety rupees. They're saying "This ninety rupees is worth... It's worth it to become sterile if you take this ninety rupees."
Prabhupada: That is paper.
Tamala Krsna: Now, that's cheating. A man can produce a son. A son has got real value in so many ways, but instead they'll give that paper worth...
Prabhupada: Cheated with ninety rupees, and he's no more...
Tamala Krsna: Just like the foreigners bought the island of Manhattan for twenty-four dollars from the Indians, the native Indians in New York, twenty-four dollars' worth of trinkets. And they purchased.
Prabhupada: No, the land was there. Just like Bhaktivinoda Thakura purchased Mayapura at eight annas a bigha.
Tamala Krsna: Now...
Prabhupada: Two thousand rupees.
Tamala Krsna: And they want five thousand. Same land.
Prabhupada: Land value has increased.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, they say that land, buying land, is better investment than putting your money in the bank, so much increasing.
Prabhupada: And they'll not allow. Rather, I cannot purchase land instead of keeping in the bank. They will not allow.
Tamala Krsna: No, they won't.
Prabhupada: You can purchase, at most, sixty bighas. That's all.
Tamala Krsna: Right. Then you get to... But what about the cheating going on, big cheating, international cheating about the space flights?
Prabhupada: Everything is cheating because so long you are a conditioned soul, out of four defects, one of the defects is cheating propensity, karana patava, er, vipralipsa.(?) That is a qualification. And in this material world, the more you are expert cheater, you are considered very able man. All over the world, so many expert cheaters are going on.
Devotee (4): Are these people consciously cheating or raised in cheating so that they don't know the difference?
Prabhupada: That is another thing, but they are cheating. That is a fact. How we have learnt it, that is another thing. But you are cheating. That's fact.
Devotee (4): Just like this President Carter, though, he's supposed to be a religious man and bringing so-called honesty into government, compared to the others.
Prabhupada: That, everyone says.
Tamala Krsna: And this, these space flight cheatings, this is for the purpose of giving a few men more tax money or fame. That's another reason for cheating, to get fame.
Prabhupada: I have got tendency to cheat, so people unnecessarily poses himself as very big man even by ideas that you will consider him very great man, although I am nothing. So many gurus, they are doing that. Our business that we want to speak what Krsna has said. If Krsna has cheated, then we are cheater. Otherwise honest. If Krsna is honest, we are honest. If Krsna is cheater, so our position is safe. Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Other gurus, they are manufacturing how to cheat. That is the difference. We are not speaking anything new. So if Krsna has originally cheated you, then I am cheater.
Tamala Krsna: That's a... A big cheating is going on in the form of speculating. Just like the, all of the teachers, professors... I was reading Satsvarupa's book. Satsvarupa was presenting that there's three ways of acquiring knowledge, you know. First way is by sense perception. But that's cheating, because...
Prabhupada: Hm, pratyaksa, paroksa aitihya.
Tamala Krsna: The senses cheat us because they're imperfect.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: One thing looks like the wrong thing.
Prabhupada: Call Gopinatha.
Tamala Krsna: But he points out that the final method, which is to hear from one who actually knows, that is the best way.
Prabhupada: That is our... And who knows better than Krsna? That's all. That is Krsna consciousness.
Tamala Krsna: Satsvarupa gives the example: Shakespeare is the expert on Shakespeare. Krsna is the expert on Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is good. Very nice.
Devotee (4): He's coming, Prabhupada. He was just in the shower.
Prabhupada: So we have to discuss very thoroughly all these subject matter.
Tamala Krsna: Another form of cheating is done by man and women for sex life. Just like a woman cheats by putting on all this makeup with the idea that "I will attract someone for my sense pleasure." And the man promises so many things: "I will take care of you. I will do this. I will do that."
Prabhupada: Well, first of all, if you accept that you have got the cheating propensity, then all other things come.
Tamala Krsna: Right. So many things, everything. Yeah, practically this whole civilization now is a cheating civilization.
Prabhupada: Whatever name you can give, it is not civilization. That we have to... Not that "How they are cheating." But it is not human civilization; it is animal. Just as animals cheat naturally. Animal fight. So we have to prove this is animal civilization. (Bengali or Hindi) This is not human civilization. Without Krsna consciousness it is not human civilization. That we have to prove. How it is not? You have to prove that "This is animal civili... This is not human civili..." Real human business is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's para-upakara. In ignorance they are doing all nonsense. Stop them. Give them knowledge. This Krsna conscious movement is real civilization. That we have to prove. It is clearly stated in... Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. Anyone who is not Krsna conscious-duskrtina, simply cheating. And therefore naradhama, lowest of the mankind. And human life he's spoiling by cheating like animal. Who cheats? The man who doesn't care for the authority. He cheats. And if a man is afraid of law and government, he does not cheat. So godless person means cheater.
Tamala Krsna: So fear is a principle of control which...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, certainly.
Tamala Krsna: But the higher principle would be love. That's our...
Prabhupada: Yes. (Bengali) Breakfast. (Bengali)
Tamala Krsna: What does this isabgol do?
Prabhupada: The dysentery tendency can be stopped.
Tamala Krsna: The problem nowadays is that although the controlling agencies, the police force, they are supposed...
Prabhupada: They are cheater.
Tamala Krsna: They themselves are cheaters.
Prabhupada: (laughs) Cheater. The government is cheater; the government men, they should be honest?
Tamala Krsna: No. Therefore how can the citizens be honest?
Prabhupada: Why Indira Gandhi is condemned? She was cheating.
Tamala Krsna: Nixon too.
Prabhupada: Everyone. And what is guarantee they will not do, this present government?
Tamala Krsna: So force in this age is finished as means a for influencing honesty. Force will not work, because the leaders are dishonest. Then we have to teach the principle of love.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Oh, therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu didn't kill. He did not kill Jagai and Madhai. 'Cause Krsna killed, but in this age that principle of love...
Prabhupada: And if you kill, then wholesale will be killed. No... There will be no candidate for learning. You have to kill everyone. That will be at the end, Kalki-avatara, simply killing, bas, finish. They'll have no capacity to understand. Nowadays there are... They cannot understand this philosophy. But there are some, they are trying to understand. But at the end of Kali-yuga there will be no brain to understand or to hear all these things. Mleccha. That is mleccha. Mleccha means they are so unclean, unstandardized, they have no brain. That is Europe, America. That's ... Mleccha. Kill animals. Eat. Mleccha, they are, according to Vedic, untouchable. If you touch, then you infect.
Tamala Krsna: Of course, Srila Prabhupada, but you did not become infected by our association.
Prabhupada: But the danger is there. Danger is there.
Tamala Krsna: Therefore traditionally the sadhus will not go outside India. They won't cross the ocean.
Prabhupada: And I took the risk. I told you the story, that I was keeping my foodstuff in the same Frigidaire that dog's flesh is here. What can I do? Circumstance. Therefore this rascal, Ginsberg, he used to say, "Swamiji, you are very conservative." And "You do not know what is conservative. I'm so lenient. You do not know what is the meaning of conservative," I used to reply him. If I was conservative, then for a single moment I could not stay here. Immediately I would have gone.
Tamala Krsna: But with yourself you were very conservative. With others you were very lenient, but in your own personal...
Prabhupada: No, no, strictly I am not doing because I am keeping my foodstuff in the same Frigidaire where there is leftover and meat and dog's food is kept. (end)

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