Conversation with Vedic Astronomer – April 30, 1977, Bombay

You have seen our books?

Prabhupada: Hmm. Hare Krsna. Jaya. I am little weak.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes, yes. All weak.

Prabhupada: So Surabhi, come here. You can come.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: And I am very glad to meet Your Holiness.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Till now I saw only in the papers, newspapers and magazines and pamphlets and books. I am so fortunate to take darsana directly with you.

Prabhupada: It is very kind of you. So...

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: As Patita-pavana dasa told me... I informed him, I am a student of religion and also working for religion. Single-hand, I made attempt to propagate Vedic culture and Vedic religion for the past forty years. I am not able to find out any help. But fortunately, when I informed about Your Holiness and saw in newspapers also, I have found you are the incarnation of Indian gods, [Prabhupada chuckles] from my point of view. Because the mission which is not fulfilled by other acaryas, even Swami Vivekananda, so many. I know... I studied all Biography of prophets. But it is only fulfilled by Your Holiness.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Because we must place our ideas before the people on the way of science without sacrificing tradition. It is also applicable to our minds. So all things are accumulated in Your Holiness, thoughts and...

Prabhupada: You have seen our books?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes, yes. Oh, yes, yes, thoroughly.

Prabhupada: So...

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Greatest mission, all your books. Even Christ is not able to do some things. But all our acaryas incarnated in your body and your thinking. I know guru-acarya... I made a contact with your acarya of Gaudiya Matha. I have made contact with him in Madras. Twice I met him.

Prabhupada: He is now dead.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: No, he is no more. I know.

Prabhupada: He is my Godbrother.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Ah.

Prabhupada: So you live in Madras?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: No, not in Madras. Kumbhakonam. Near the Madras also, my one of the yajnas there. But my agni-hotra place is at Kumbhakonam. We are following agni-hotra tradition for more than ten generations. I myself performed so many yajnas. And now I am performing agnihotra also, day and night, morning and evening.

Prabhupada: So...

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: I am also a great lover of Bhagavata. That is my point.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Bhagavata is my solace of my life.

Prabhupada: So we are presenting this planetarium...

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Bhagavata, yes?

Prabhupada: From Bhagavatam.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Ah-hah.Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: In the Fifth Canto there is description of the planetary system.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: So we want a diagram.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: So kindly help us.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: With your Your Holiness permission, he told all these things to me. I use some Bhagavata sloka before.

[Prayer by Lord Brahma]

Ignorance is gone by knowledge. Where there is no Lord there is nescience.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. So find out that Fifth Canto. So this planetary system is hanging.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes.

Prabhupada: Ūrdhva-mulam adhah-sakham [Bg 15.1]. Same thing is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Now, how it is hanging and where are different situation of the planets and plateaus and hills and... So as far as the book is concerned, kindly make a diagram so that we shall execute.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes, yes. Ūrdhva-mulam adhah-sakham asvattham prahur avyayam. That means, this, about the life.

Prabhupada: Not life. This planetary system is like that.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: Ūrdhva-mulam adhah-sakham [Bg 15.1]. That is... That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Which chapter it is?

Surabhir Abhipalayantam: This is a description of Jambu-dvipa.

Prabhupada: There is Jambu-dvipa and...

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Where is this? Pancama-skandha.

Prabhupada: Eh? It is not dasama-skandha.

Surabhir Abhipalayantam: Jambu-dvipa.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Jambu-dvipa.

Prabhupada: It is...

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: The pancama-skandha.

Prabhupada: Pancama-skandha, yes.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: There we find there about the Priyavrata. Priyavrata's sons, they divided the world into nine different varsas.

Prabhupada: No, persons we are not very much concerned. We are... Immediately we want the diagram how to fix it up so that people can see, "This is the situation." So you make this diagram.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: It is first attempt to give in picture the ideas of Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Yes. So we... We are... We have got very good scheme so that people from the world will come to see the Vedic idea of planetary system. This is the ambition. So you kindly help us.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: As far as possible, as our Lord desires, I am prepared to serve Him.

Prabhupada: So you sit down and take paper and make it and..., so that he can understand. You have already studied that.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes I have.

Prabhupada: So that you can do immediately. You do. Can you make a rough sketch immediately?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Rough, no, no, no. I cannot. Because after he came there I told him that we must prepare a diagram which is acceptable to all, acceptable to all.

Prabhupada: No, acceptable, the, I mean to say, Western astronomers. They...

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: No, we... If you prefer Bhagavatam and if you follow the Bhagavatam...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: ...whether Western accepts or not, that is not worthwhile.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Whether Westerners or modern scientists accept or not, that is not worthwhile.

Prabhupada: No, we want do it according to Bhagavatam.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: That is only Bhagavatam.

Prabhupada: Yes. So when you'll do it?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: When the order is, I will start.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: On your order, holy order, I will start on work immediately.

Prabhupada: No, my order... It is for this purpose I sent him, so you can begin immediately or...

Tamala Krsna: Surabhi has an office with all things ready-drawing board...

Prabhupada: You can go to his office. You can give him instruction how the planetary system is hanging. The polestar, dhruva-tara, is the center, and it is moving. That at night you can see. It is moving.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: In Vedas also description, [quotes Sanskrit verses].

Prabhupada: No, what is the first, beginning? You just give him. Read it. The Sanskrit reading.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: [reads Sanskrit from Srimad-Bhagavatam, Fifth Canto, uktas tvaya bhu-mandalayama-viseso yavad adityas tapati yatra casau jyotisam ganais candrama va saha drsyate. tatrapi priyavrata-ratha-carana-parikhataih saptabhih sapta sindhava upaklpta yata etasyah sapta-dvipa-visesa-vikalpas tvaya bhagavan khalu sucita etad evakhilam aham manato laksanatas

Prabhupada: Sapta-sindhu... You have to make diagram where the sapta-sindhu are.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes. All...

Prabhupada: No, all...

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: ...because as we prepare diagram on the basis of pancama-skandha, Bhagavata, all must be given there. etad evakhilam aham manato laksanatas ca sarvam vijijnasami bhagavato gunamaye sthula-rupa avesitam mano hy agune

Prabhupada: So you can... Why not begin it in my presence?

Gopala Krsna: Begin the drawing now, so that Prabhupada can see it before he leaves.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: No, because I am not able to prepare the diagrams and other things. With the help of my friends only I can do. I give the translation to them and all do the work. Simply we can show to them.

Prabhupada: I have tried to translate it as far as possible, but I am not satisfied.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: A deep study of the text is absolutely necessary.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Deep study of text, and also with a mind of preparing diagram, study of the..., that is... We ask Padma-kosa. How is Padma-kosa...

Prabhupada: What is your idea of the seven planets, sun...?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: You see, planets, in our system planets comes in the history very late.

Prabhupada: Very...?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Late, very. Because you won't find any reference to grahas in the Vedas. As a student of Veda, I can guarantee that there is no reference to the grahas in the Vedas. Because nava-grahas mantras are only imported mantras, not directly connected with the grahas. So when because these things comes later on, Kalpa-sutra, for those adopted the grahas and prepared the mantras from the Vedas for the grahas. So historically it must have come down. Now we'll find out in what date they are presented. Till now I was told all these things after only... I am also preaching Bhagavata.

Prabhupada: Now, where is the situation of the grahas in this planetary system? Whether sun is first or moon is first?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Sun is first. Definitely sun is first because the moon is the reflection of sunshine. ramuna surya rasmi candrama gandharvaha. Vedas say surya rasmi deva candrama, candrama gandharvas tasya naksatra.

Prabhupada: Candrama has... Candrama has got his own light. It is not reflection.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Not reflection. It has its own importance. But about the lights...

Prabhupada: As surya is blazing, similarly, candrama is also blazing, but it is surrounded by cool cloud. Therefore it is so soothing. But it is above the sun planet, so far it is stated there.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Natural... Naturally surya, our astronomy says, agnimayo barah, candro ambumayos tatha. Vedas say, susumna…surya rasmi deva candrama. Because the way we read the naksatras only.

Prabhupada: So when you begin this diagram?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: After going my town.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: After going my town I begin.

Prabhupada: Going?

Gopala Krsna: To his town.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Tamala Krsna: After going back to his town he's going to begin.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Send with your blessings.

Prabhupada: So you'll go there, then... But we have brought him to make here.

Patita Uddharana: Can you not work with us here for some time on this chart?

Prabhupada: No, no, why sometimes? This purpose, you went there to bring him, and now he'll go to town and do.

Patita Uddharana: When I met...

Prabhupada: No, no question of when you met him. This was the purpose.

Patita Uddharana: Can we not begin the chart immediately?

Prabhupada: I wanted to make it before me. [pause]

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: The difficulty is, we never studied in this way Bhagavatam, so it is not easy to paint a diagram immediately. That is the point. We study and give discourse on Bhagavata, simply what is in the text.

Prabhupada: So you have no practical idea?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Eh?

Prabhupada: You have no practical idea?

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: No, I have some ideas, vague, not practical. This is here in five days[?].

Prabhupada: No, no, vague idea is not good. You for some days stay here and do it here.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: I am told that Arkasomayaji is also coming here.

Patita Uddharana: No, he's not. I never said he was coming.

Prabhupada: What is the difficulty? The sastra is there. You have to make drawing according to sastra. That's all.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: You see, writing is separate art. Preparing diagram is separate art.

Prabhupada: Why separate art? If you understand clearly, you can make it.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: All are not like Your Holiness. You will be able. You all were deeply penetrated in the ideas of scriptures, and find out the facts.

Prabhupada: At least you make some attempt. Let us see.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Pardon?

Prabhupada: You make some attempt. Go to the offices.

Gopala Krsna: Please just try.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes. I will explain again to you later.

Patita Uddharana: You must try.

Agnihotram Ramanuja Tattvacarya: Yes. Yes.

Patita Uddharana: Yes. [indistinct background discussion]

Gopala Krsna: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Jaya.

Patita Uddharana: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

[aside:] Please come.

Tamala Krsna: Phew! This boy, Patita Uddharana, has spoiled thousands of rupees for months. He has no knowledge or intelligence, and he's going around and thinking that this man is the foremost...

Prabhupada: Useless.

Tamala Krsna: To fly him from Madras to here and back is twelve hundred rupees, and Patita has been traveling for months all over India. Who knows how much they have spent on him? And he doesn't have the intelligence to ask the questions which Your Divine Grace just asked. Otherwise he could have known from the beginning that the man doesn't know a thing.

Prabhupada: He cannot, cannot explain.

Tamala Krsna: This man will not be able to. I mean, the things you were saying, Srila Prabhupada, he was thinking... When you started to describe them, he was thinking it had to do with the individual soul. He said that "You're desc..." You said, "No, I'm talking about the universe." He said, "Oh, the universe."

Prabhupada: He does not know anything. Now he goes away. He goes back and he... Why he has come?

Tamala Krsna: For your blessings. Twelve-hundred-rupee blessing. There are learned men in India, there's no doubt. There must be learned men.

Prabhupada: All bogus.

Tamala Krsna: All?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Tamala Krsna: Just like that...?

Prabhupada: Boka.

Tamala Krsna: There's that one man, Gangeshvara..., Gange.... That one blind...

Prabhupada: Gangeshvarananda.

Tamala Krsna: I mean, he's a learned person.

Prabhupada: He has no clear idea.

Tamala Krsna: And what to do? How to get...?

Prabhupada: Krsna will help.

Tamala Krsna: Hmm?

Prabhupada: Krsna will help. He has no idea.

Tamala Krsna: He says, "We never thought to read Bhagavatam as you are now talking. We have not read like this yet, so I will have to begin to read it again as..." I mean, what... I'm only wondering what kind of talk Patita Uddharana must have had with him that he felt that this man was qualified.

Prabhupada: So how he'll make diagram? He has no idea.

Tamala Krsna: No, he doesn't. He never thought about it. No one reads the Bhagavatam as a scientific book, Srila Prabhupada. That's the point. Except for Your Divine Grace, they are thinking it's story: "It is stories."

Prabhupada: Yes, they do not believe.

Tamala Krsna: No. And therefore no one takes it seriously. Modern people don't take it seriously.

Prabhupada: There was a gosai. He was reading Caitanya-caritamrta. So the description of the planetary system there is. He used to say to his audience, "Actually, these things are not there. These are imaginary descriptions." He was such a fool. So the whole world has taken like that: "symbolic," "imagination."

Tamala Krsna: And he was lecturing on Caitanya-caritamrta. I think you mentioned that one of your Godbrothers once said to you, "You really believe that there is such a place, Krsnaloka, Vaikuntha-loka?" He was himself...

Prabhupada: Bon Maharaja did not believe. No... Nobody ever thought of it.

Tamala Krsna: You are the only representative, the lone representative of religion left on this planet, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: So what to do? He has wasted so much money. He's not the proper man.

Tamala Krsna: No. Why not let us try to find out some man locally here in Bombay?

Prabhupada: Very difficult. You can try.

Tamala Krsna: I mean, there's just as good a chance we'll find him here as anywhere else. And it won't cost anything.

Prabhupada: "Astronomer knowing the planetary system," you can advertise. "Expert astronomer who knows the planetary system as described..."

Tamala Krsna: "...in Srimad-Bhagavatam."

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, we can advertise. Instead of having somebody going all over India.

Prabhupada: He assured that he has found out an expert. The other man did not come because he does not know.

Tamala Krsna: Patita said that these were the two top men in all of India, guaranteed.

Prabhupada: Let us see what does he do. [end]