Room Conversation
with Ram Jethmalani
(Parliament Member)

April 16, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupada: I was cooking in my hands. So for one man sitting I was cooking not less than for ten to fifteen men.
Tamala Krsna: What was the idea?
Prabhupada: The idea is everyone wanted some food prepared by me. They wanted my preparation. All right, do it.
Tamala Krsna: All the devotees in the early days.
Prabhupada: No, not devot... When I was doing here and there. Like Dr. Mishra's place.
Tamala Krsna: He was very fond of your cooking.
Prabhupada: He got a good cook without paying. (laughs) And I had no other alternative. I liked it.
Tamala Krsna: Was he paying for the foodstuffs?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He was giving his place and foodstuff. I was preparing and eating and giving them. I will not pay him, no. Everything he was paying.
Indian man: Before breakfast, medicine (Hindi).
Prabhupada: (Hindi conversation) I have gone through variety stages of life. So I have got full experience of this material world. I don't want it. That determination is there. Society, family, love, friendship, these nonsense, everythingout! I have tasted. I am no more interested with this material. That is niskincana. Finished.
Tamala Krsna: Distaste for all worldly things.
Prabhupada: That I am realizing, that Krsna pushed, dragged me through all circumstances, that "These are useless." Niskincanasya bhagavad-bhajanonmukha... That is required. Just like Jagai and Madhai. They were made to promise, "No more." "Yes sir, no more." "Then I accept you. That's all right." "No." And they made it, kept their promise. They became faithful.
Tamala Krsna: Actually you also demand of us that promise. "Now whatever you have done, never mind, but no more. Follow these four principles." That means if the devotees don't follow, then they will not make advancement.
Prabhupada: They are breaking their promise. Before accepting them, I make him promise. They promise it. If they break, what can I do?
Tamala Krsna: Then the connection, the contract is finished.
Prabhupada: This should be the principle. "No more this." Then he becomes fit. Ara nahe vakya.
Tamala Krsna: Therefore accepting initiation is a serious matter.
Prabhupada: Initiation means seriously take up the...
Prabhupada: And if you make it a fun business, then I become implicated, you become implicated.
Tamala Krsna: In what way does the spiritual master become...?
Prabhupada: Well, this is then something.(?)
Tamala Krsna: He has to work very hard on behalf of the disciple...
Prabhupada: No. To accept his sinful reaction.
Tamala Krsna: He does that?
Prabhupada: It is not easy job to become a spiritual master. Yes. Then when it is overloaded, you'll suffer.
Tamala Krsna: Krsna transfers the sinful reaction unto the spiritual master from the disciple.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Why? Is it because there will be such a heavy...?
Prabhupada: Krsna says... That is the principle. This is, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66]. "You have to take all the sinful reactions." This is the principle, that Krsna is God. He can nullify everything. But I am not God. When it is overloaded, I have to suffer. This is the principle that the Christian idea that Christ takes.
Tamala Krsna: The trouble with the Christians is that they never relieved Christ. They go on sinning. That's not love.
Prabhupada: Yes. The principle is that the spiritual master takes all the resultant sinful action, but the disciple also says that "Now, stop it. Otherwise my spiritual master..." That is gentleman. And "Now use that thing, go on taking our sinful reaction. We will go on with our own business."
Tamala Krsna: That's not loving at all. That is taking advantage.
Prabhupada: That is cheating.
Tamala Krsna: Cheating.
Prabhupada: The same cheating. And he is not liberated because he continues cheating.
Tamala Krsna: Frankly, though, we can see by Christianity that some defect is there. Either it's probably not there on the part of Jesus. He could have given them a way to purify themself, but they...
Prabhupada: One chance, that "You have accepted me, I take your all sinful reactions." But these rascals continue.
Tamala Krsna: His point was that "Now you must continue to follow my instructions."
Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise why ten commandments? And these rascals took it that "I shall not follow any of you. You take our sinful reaction. It is very good religion."
Tamala Krsna: And therefore they say no one is more merciful than Jesus.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: Even if... We are doing anything, but he still forgives us.
Prabhupada: This is going on. Therefore according to history, he retired. That is resurrection. He went to Kashmir. "It is hopeless."
Tamala Krsna: He didn't die on the cross.
Prabhupada: It is not possible to kill him. Such a great personality, representative of God, he is not killed. That is not possible.
Tamala Krsna: Simply by putting some wounds.
Prabhupada: He made a show that "I am killed." That is resurrection. And when you finished your business, then he will go (indistinct).
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, they say that when he got down they rubbed his body with oils.
Prabhupada: He was a great yogi and so on.
Tamala Krsna: You remember in that book you were reading, The Aquarian Gospel. It mentioned how he learned yoga when he came to India.
Prabhupada: We admit. Guru Maharaja said saktyavesa-avatara, powerful incarnation. Therefore whenever there was question of Jesus, I never disrespected Jesus. Never criticized him, because I know that he is powerful representative of God. We took it from Guru Maharaja.
Tamala Krsna: Your Guru Maharaja would sometimes...
Prabhupada: He said that Christ is saktyavesa-avatara, as Buddha. How he can be otherwise? He sacrificed everything for God. He cannot be ordinary man.
Tamala Krsna: You want (indistinct)?
Prabhupada: Hm. That Melbourne meeting, it was... You were present?
Tamala Krsna: No, I heard about it. With the monks, I think.
Prabhupada: They very much appreciated. Because they saw that I have got full respect for Christ and his real disciples. And actually we have. Why not? He said, "Thou shalt not kill," and they are interpreting killing. This is going on. And they are Christians. Just see how much cheating. It is clearly written, "Thou shalt not kill." And their only business is killing, and still, they are Christians. How much cheating it is. Whatever little success is in our movement, the cause is I have not tried to cheat. Honestly, what I knew, I heard it from Guru Maharaja and scripture, I took it. There was no cheating.
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, you pointed that out yesterday when you talked with Mr. Rajda, that it's an open secret. You are not introducing anything new. You are simply giving the instructions of Bhagavad-gita, but you are not introducing anything on top of those instructions. No interpretation. As it is. That's the whole problem. They are all reading Bhagavad-gita, these politicians, but none of them as it is.
Prabhupada: Therefore I said "Who understands this meaning of one line?"
Tamala Krsna: They really think that Morarji is a big religious man. They are very happy to think that their prime minister now is very, very religious. They are very pleased to think like that.
Prabhupada: I said that my disciples rise at 3:30 and worship till 9:30. He said that he rises at 3:30 and three hours for... So I immediately said, "They are engaging twenty-four hours."
Tamala Krsna: Yeah, we don't engage in politics for the other nineteen hours. Of course, I mean, I never would have said anything, but the fact is that this is not the business of one who is eighty-four years old, to be the prime minister. It is better if he were to take up preaching Bhagavad-gita. You gave that advice to Gandhi. He could do more good then.
Prabhupada: They will take advantage of Bhagavad-gita and do their business.
Tamala Krsna: What are some of the important shastric references in regard to developing an article on cheating?
Prabhupada: Hm? Where is authority, that you are speaking rightly? Just like in the law court, when they plead, they give the reference to the lawbook that... A good lawyer means he will give reference "Under section... This is my authority." That is authority. [break] (Hindi) Ap thik hai?
Giriraja: So this is Mr. Ram Jethmalani. He is the Member of Parliament representing this constituency. So he recently came from Detroit. He was teaching at the university there while this emergency was going on, and now he came back. So he mentioned his idea of helping the slum dwellers. So I have showed him that article, "One Hundred Million Harijanas Looking for a New Messiah" and gave him a copy of the letter which Goswami Maharaja wrote. In the meantime he was just busy with other functions. He didn't get a chance to go through it. He is very interested.
Prabhupada: So we can uplift the position of the harijanas very easily, by this process of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. There is a song, Bengali song, vrajendra-nandana yei. You understand Bengali?
Ram Jethmalani: No.
Prabhupada: Vrajendra-nandana yei, saci-suta haila sei, meaning that "Who was formerly Vrajendra-nandana, Krsna, Nanda Maharaja's son, the same person has now come as Caitanya Mahaprabhu." Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mother's name was Sacidevi. Therefore He is introduced, "The same person who was formerly the son of Nanda Maharaja has come again as the son of Sacidevi." Balarama haila nitai. "And Balarama has come as Nitai." These two brothers, Gaura-Nitai, They have now started this Hare Krsna movement. So what is the purpose of this Hare Krsna movement? So papi-tapi yata chila, hari-nama uddharila. In the Kali-yuga, ninety-nine percent, they are sinful and suffering. Papi-tapi. Papi means sinful, and tapi means suffering. All of them, papi-tapi yata chila, they are all delivered simply by this process of Hare Krsna maha-mantra. Papi-tapi yata chila, hari-nama uddharila. Then where is the evidence? Tara saksi jagai madhai. You are a lawyer, you want witness, evidence.
Ram Jethmalani: (laughing) You don't blame me.
Prabhupada: (laughs) No, it is not blaming, it is fact. It is the real understanding. Without evidence, without proof, how law can be established? That's a good method. So he is speaking like lawyer, that "You want evidence, you want witness: see here." Tara saksi jagai madhai. So that is five hundred years ago. Now in our Hare Krsna movement you see practically. Drunkards, illicit sex-hunters, and so on, so on, they have become saintly persons. This is the effect of it. So... And Krsna also says, mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah [Bg. 9.32]. It doesn't matter. Papa-yoni. According to our Vedic system, low-class, those who are born in low-grade family, they are called papa-yoni. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, lower than thatsudradhah. Kirata-hunandhra-pulinda-pulkasa abhira-sumbha yavanah khasadayah [SB 2.4.18]. They are called papa-yoni, untouchables. Of course, nowadays these things cannot go on. But these are there. So Krsna says, ye 'pi syuh papa-yonayah. Anyone born in anywhere, te 'pi yanti param gatim. Mam eva vyapasritya. Krsna consciousness is so nice, everyone can be elevated. So what is this harijana? We can do.
Ram Jethmalani: Well, some of these slum-dwellers are not harijanas and some of them are Muslims, some of them are...
Prabhupada: Anyone, anyone. You see. My all disciples, they are coming. Christian, Jewish, Muslim, every kind. Mostly they are my disciples.
Ram Jethmalani: Have Muslims taken to this movement?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Many. One professor, Dr. Amja,(?) he is my disciple, I gave him name Rama-ranjana. They are Muslim. It is philosophy, science. It is not meant for a particular caste or creed or nation. No. Rather, to accept this creed or accept this process, one is required first to give up this designation. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. That is nirmala. So long we are covered by this material body, we are not nirmala; we are polluted. So one has to give up this designation, bodily concept of life. Tanu-manina. These words are given. Tanu-manina. So long one is continuing in the bodily concept of life, it is sinful life, in comparison. This we have to give up, in order to come to the transcendental position. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam. Nirmala [Cc. Madhya 19.170].
Hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate. When we become nirmala, in our original, pure spiritual life, then bhakti begins. And in Bhagavad-gita also it is stated,
Such person, brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20], aham brahmasmi, that is the preliminary qualification to become bhakta. So these disciples, these devotees, they are not thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am brahmana," "I am..." No.
Ram Jethmalani: No, that is true, that's the...
Prabhupada: That is sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc. Madhya 19.170].
Ram Jethmalani: That is the only way to have a world movement. Must do. Cut across these...
Prabhupada: Yes. So harijanas, Muslims, these are... And camara-bhangi. These are designations. Or brahmana, bodily concept of life. So according to our sastra, so long one continues this bodily concept of life, he is animal. Either you call I am bhangi, or you call I am brahmana, you are animal. This is the verdict of the sastra. What is the difference? The conception is the same. "I am dog." "I am brahmana," "I am Indian," "I am American." That "I am" with the bodily identification is there.
yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke
sva-dhih kalatradisu bhauma ijya-dhih
yat tirtha-buddhih salile na karhicij
janesv abhijnesu sa eva go-kharah
[SB 10.84.13]
Go means cow, khara means ass. So so long we shall continue this bodily concept of life"I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Pakistani," "I am...," so on, so on, that is animal concept of life. So one has to raise himself from this impure designated position to the transcendental position. Then he can realize. And that is our Krsna consciousness movement. And Bhagavad-gita teaches from the very beginning, "Don't identify with this body." Asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase [Bg. 2.11]. "You are talking like a very learned man, but you are identifying with this body." Gatasun agatasums ca nanusocanti panditah. "This body is a lump of matter, and you are considering upon this and talking like a pandita." This is the beginning. So who understands Bhagavad-gita? Where Bhagavad-gita begins? Tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. They do not understand even the first line of Bhagavad-gita, what to speak of this statement. Bhagavad-gita is purely meant for the dehi, the owner of the body, not of the body. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita teaching. Who understands it? Nobody understands it. And they are scholars, and they are so on, so on.
Ram Jethmalani: How is it that the Bhagavad-gita doesn't emphasize public service? There is no emphasis on public social service.
Prabhupada: Where it is? Tell me. You must give evidence. You are lawyer.
Ram Jethmalani: No, no.
Prabhupada: Where does it say?
Ram Jethmalani: No, why is there no emphasis?
Prabhupada: There is no need. This is animal conception of life. The dog also combine together and make (makes barking sound:) ba ba ba ba ba. A human being also can do like that. Then where is the difference between animal and human being?
Ram Jethmalani: But I don't know that animals, on the contrary, serve each other. It is men who do.
Prabhupada: But what is the use of serving? What you can do? What service you have done? You cannot do anything beyond the laws of nature. Now Indira is in difficulty. What can you do? In one day, everything is finished. The law of nature is so strict. You cannot do anything. You are falsely proud that you want to do. It is not possible. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. You can do only the service, that "You are not this body, you are spirit soul, your business is this." This is dharma(?).
tasyaiva hetoh prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatam upary adhah
tal labhyate duhkhavad anyatah sukham...
[SB 1.5.18]
Now they are declaring... Our Mrs. Gandhi also said, daridra-anadha.(?) Then what she has done?
Ram Jethmalani: No, she has not done anything.
Prabhupada: No, no, now she is adha(?). So who is doing this? You are completely under the laws of nature. You cannot violate. If you are tied up, hands and legs, what you can do? First of all liberate yourself. Then talk of liberating others.
Ram Jethmalani: But when you see so much of physical suffering around...
Prabhupada: But what you can do? That is my... It is very good, sympathetic.
Ram Jethmalani: Is it right to tell the suffering that "I am busy, at work for my salvation"?
Prabhupada: We don't say like that. We say that "Here is the remedy for rectifying your suffering, Krsna consciousness. Come to it." We don't say that "You suffer." We say, "Stop your suffering in this way." Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. We are also trying to stop that suffering. But the ordinary people, they do not know how to stop it. Just like the United Nations. They are united, to mitigate the sufferings of the whole human... What they have done? Simply like barking in that assembly with... You go on suffering. Stop suffering. So you must know first of all how sufferings can be stopped. Then you do this, needful. Otherwise, what is the use if you do not know the method? Here is duhkhalayam asasvatam [Bg. 8.15]. I think you have read Bhagavad-gita.
Ram Jethmalani: Oh, yes, but...
Prabhupada: Here is, here is... Find out this verse. Mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam, napnuvanti mahatmanah samsiddhim paramam gatah. This is real mitigation of suffering. This is... The world is suffering.
Prabhupada: This is mitigation of suffering. Mam upetya. Read it again.
mam upetya punar janma
duhkhalayam asasvatam
[Bg. 8.15]
Prabhupada: Mam upetya punar janma duhkhalayam asasvatam. So long you have to accept another body, you must suffer. Suffering means this body. That Krsna says. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg. 13.9]. Real suffering is here, that you have to take your birth, you have to die, you have to suffer from disease and old age. But your position is na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Na jayate na mriyate va kadacit. Your business is not to take birth and die. But why you are suffering? Nobody wants to die. You must die. Nobody wants to become old man. He must become. So you do not know what is suffering and how to mitigate it. And Krsna points out, "This is suffering." Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam. This is knowledge. So temporary... Suppose if there is any boil, and if you... Is that mitigation of suffering, do you think? "Oh, you are suffering?" The surgeon must come and operate and get out this pus and then suffering. So here Krsna recommends, "This is mitigation of suffering. Stop your birth, death, old age and disease." So we do not know what is suffering and how to get out. Therefore we have to consult Krsna in every step. Then our life will be... This is our Krsna consciousness. You take instruction from Krsna and try to abide by it. Your suffering will go. Otherwise, simply dog barking will not help.
Ram Jethmalani: Anyway, I will be in touch with your Giriraja.
Prabhupada: You take. We are speaking from the authoritative statements of Bhagavad-gita. We are not manufacturing anything. That is not our business.
Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada, we just received a letter from Pakistan. I thought you might be interested to hear along with Mr. Jethmalani. It describes some very interesting preaching that went on there. It is just a short paragraph if I could read it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: It's from your disciple Atreya Rsi.
Prabhupada: Hm. He went there?
Tamala Krsna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada has a disciple by the name of...
Prabhupada: He is Muhammadan. He was Attanya. So I have given him the name Atreya Rsi. There are many like that. In Iran we have got center, Tehran. We have got many Muhammadan disciples there, prosecuting our method. And he is the head there. Just see. Atreya Rsi. What he has said?
Tamala Krsna: Srila Prabhupada sent Atreya Rsi to Pakistan. He writes, "My dear Srila Prabhupada, please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to you who are the only guiding light in the world of darkness. India is that holy land in which the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Sri Caitanya appeared and in whose inhabitants He instructed to go all over the world and spread the science of love of Godhead. It is in this way that I realize your emphasizing the activities of ISKCON in India after your very successful endeavoring in the West. Pakistan is a nonseparable part of India, and I appreciate your compassion towards them and your desire to help them."
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Tamala Krsna: "In accordance with your desire I went to Karachi and spent two days there. I first visited the marble factory of Mr. Azis Pir Mohammed. This man belongs to the Ismaili sect of Islam, the followers of Aga Khan. His factory is very small, and he and his three brothers manage it. Their primary business is cutting alabaster into vases, tiles, plates, cups, etc., and they sell their products mainly to foreign countries. I made two visits to their factory and preached extensively to Azis, his brother, his friends and workers. They all liked Krsna consciousness. They are intelligent enough to understand and in due time will be able to follow your instructions seriously. However, they need more association and a devotee to constantly engage them. I did not see fit to ask them for the use of their house as a center yet, but I told them that I would be opening a center in Karachi, and they were happy to hear this. They promised to help in whatever way they could as soon as our men appear on the scene."
Ram Jethmalani: Sir, I will take leave of you, and with your blessings, I hope we shall soon be...
Prabhupada: No, we are preaching Krsna consciousness without any sectarian... That is our... Unity on spiritual platform. Try to understand.
Ram Jethmalani: I hope we can be of some use sometime to your...
Prabhupada: Yes. That position... That is required, that you want to cooperate.
Ram Jethmalani: Whatever you order any time.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. So we have got some difficulties here, inform him.
Giriraja: Actually, he offered that if there was any difficulties he would help us.
Prabhupada: So inform him. Prasada?
Giriraja: Actually, there is supposed to be prasada coming up right now.
Prabhupada: So please wait, let the prasada come. Take.
Giriraja: I will bring it up here.
Ram Jethmalani: We will take it in the car, because it will help us to attend a public meeting in time. I am on a thanksgiving tour of the constituency.
Indian man: We are taking him to Andheri. There is a meeting. We have kept a huge vote.
Prabhupada: No, no, how they will take prasadam?
Giriraja: Well, I think if they could wait one or two minutes.
Prabhupada: No, it is not... Kindly wait.
Ram Jethmalani: Yes. But here?
Prabhupada: Yes, why not?
Ram Jethmalani: We won't eat in your presence.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Ram Jethmalani: I will be very glad to see that you have taken. Bring immediately.
Six kinds of loving exchange. One of them is bhunkte bhojayate. (Hindi conversation) This is, out of the six items, the two items. (Hindi) Dadati pratigrhnati. (Hindi) This is the science of love. Everything is there.
Ram Jethmalani: What are the other four? You told us two.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Tamala Krsna: He is asking what are the other four symptoms of loving exchanges.
Prabhupada: These six is sufficient.
Tamala Krsna: You gave two. He wanted to know what the first...
Prabhupada: Oh, dadati pratigrhnati, to give and to accept. And (Hindi), to give him food, and when he offers, take it. You open your mind to him and let him open his mind to you. Guhyam akhyati prcchati. Guhyam means confidential. Unless you love me, how can I speak to you my confidential subject? So give and take, the English word is love. This is love, beginning. In European, American countries there is free love. So they offer flower. He or she accepts. And in this way love begins. Krsna also says, love of Krsna begins also in that way. Patram puspam phalam toyam. [break] These things. Simply with love if you offer to Krsna, Krsna: aham asnami, "I eat." Is Krsna hungry? Tad aham asnami. Patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. Tad aham asnami. Yo me bhaktya prayacchati. The real thing is love. Patram puspam is no value. Or luci puri is no value. The real value is love. Yo me bhaktya prayacchati. Therefore he does not accept anything from anyone else unless he is a devotee. This word is used, yo me bhaktya prayacchati. (Hindi) You understand Hindi?
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupada: (Hindi conversation)
Ram Jethmalani: Our own intellect tells us that our intellect is finite. There are certain things which you can't reason, and that also I grant that you are right. One has to see these things with one's secret eye.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) This is the right of Bharatavarsa. Of this Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,
Ei para-upakara, to distribute this knowledge to the whole human society. The human (Hindi). This is the real human service, to give them knowledge.
Giriraja: I know you haven't eaten all day.
Prabhupada: (Hindi conversation)
Ram Jethmalani: What is your normal dinnertime?
Devotee: The same, rice, dal, capatis.
Ram Jethmalani: No, time.
Devotee: Oh, time. One o'clock.
Ram Jethmalani: And at night?
Devotee: Six o'clock.
Tamala Krsna: At night we don't take. Only some fruit. Usually we eat one main meal at noon time, noon or one. And in the morning a little fruit, at night some milk. One main time a day. (Hindi conversation between Prabhupada and man)
Ram Jethmalani: Were you nonvegetarian before you joined this movement?
Tamala Krsna: Yes. But now I could not even think of eating anything but Krsna prasadam.
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Tamala Krsna: That is how Prabhupada got us off of all nonvegetarian foodstuff. He personally cooked for us, and he made us eat so much that we lost all remembrance of anything but prasadam. Then after we were very nicely fed with prasadam, he taught us the chanting of Hare Krsna. And after being very much pleased with the chanting of Hare Krsna, then he would also lecture to us on Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. So every part of us was satisfied-our tongues, our voices, our minds and intelligence, fully satisfied.
Ram Jethmalani: Your movement does allow also householders and professional men like us to be a part of the movement without having to...
Tamala Krsna: Very much so. Actually, we would look very much eagerly forward to having persons like yourself taking great part in our movement. It is with great difficulty that someone like Giriraja dasa has to go to the court, because we have no one like you.
Ram Jethmalani: Oh, my great pleasure. Anytime you just tell me in the court when there is a problem. I'll be there in two minutes.
Prabhupada: Yes. (Hindi) He is a lawyer, court case.
Ram Jethmalani: No, but can one be in the movement without having to adopt the stricter forms of all this, even at home?
Giriraja: Yes, he can participate. Just like if someone is initiated as a disciple, he must follow these four principles very rigidly. No meat-eating, no intoxication, no illicit sex, and no gambling. But the sastra says that you can serve, either by giving your whole life or by giving your intelligence, by giving your time, by giving your words. So in whatever way possible, anyone can serve Krsna and make more and more progress.
Tamala Krsna: Actually, this gentleman who has written this letter from Pakistan, he is a big businessman. He is the head of a very, very large business consultant firm in Iran. But in his free time he also tries to do a little preaching work.
Prabhupada: He is a very responsible officer. What is his position?
Tamala Krsna: He is the managing director of Arthur Young and Company. It's a big international firm of chartered accountants.
Ram Jethmalani: Thank you very much.
Prabhupada: Thank you. (Hindi) Thank you very much. (Hindi)
Ram Jethmalani: Sir, how old are you?
Prabhupada: I am eighty-one.
Giriraja: There was some discussion earlier whether Krsna had an actual existence or whether He is imaginary.
Prabhupada: Why imaginary? He is in the history, Mahabharata. Mahabharata means greater, history of greater India.
Giriraja: Would you like a little more? (offering prasadam)
Ram Jethmalani: No thank you. I am trying to finish as much as I can.
Prabhupada: All right.
Ram Jethmalani: One of the historical pieces of evidence is that if Ramayana was historically earlier than Mahabharata, it is curious that there is no reference in the Mahabharata at all that any other gods of Ramayana. And if it will be the other way around, there is no reference to...
Giriraja: But there is reference in the Srimad-Bhagavatam...
Prabhupada: About Ramayana. Srimad-Bhagavatam there is reference of Ramayana. Srimad-Bhagavatam is the last writing of Vyasadeva.
Ram Jethmalani: In last writing it may contain, but between the two of them, there is no cross reference of any kind. Now, a personality like Krsna, when first set up, it must have become a phenomena at least.
Giriraja: But in the Gita Krsna says... He describes His different vibhutis, and there He says, "I am Rama."
Prabhupada: "Amongst the warriors, I am Rama." The reference is there. This very word is there. "Amongst the warriors, I am Rama."
Giriraja: And it's also described that the great sages in the forest who were worshiping Rama, they wanted to associate with Him in a particular way which was not possible because He was acting as the ideal king, so He said that "In My future appearance as Lord Krsna, I will fulfill all of your desires."
Prabhupada: And besides that, in the Vedic literature, Brahma-samhita, this name Rama is mentioned.
Krsna is the original God and Rama is expansion. Not only Rama-other incarnations. Ramadi-murtisu. Rama, Nrsimha, Varaha, many.
Ram Jethmalani: Ramadi.
Prabhupada: Ramadi-murtisu.
Ram Jethmalani: Rama comes later according to this.
Prabhupada: No, no, there is no question of later or former. These are always existing. And They appear, disappear according to the necessity. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata tadatmanam srjamy aham [Bg. 4.7]. The murtis are there, permanently, and They appear and disappear according to the necessity. Suppose in a case you require the reference to a law. It is not that the law has appeared for the purpose. The law was there already. You have to simply bring it for your business. Ramadi-murtisu kala-niyamena tisthan nanavataram akarod bhuvanesu kintu krsnah svayam samabhavat paramah [Bs. 5.39]. Any sweets?
Indian man: Here.
Prabhupada: Oh, you have got. Madhureka samapayet.(?) At the end you must take some sweets. Then it will be digested. (Hindi)
Ram Jethmalani: In U.P. they give you sweets first.
Indian man: First, at the time of taking water even.
Prabhupada: Yes. What is the system in your society? Sweet first or last?
Indian man: In here also, they are given first sweet.
Ram Jethmalani: Yes, but now everything has become Westernized. We have dessert.
Prabhupada: In northern India first of all they give sweets. So they eat sweet to the heart's content. Then to counteract the sweetness...
Ram Jethmalani: The best way to destroy your appetite is to eat sweet first.
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs)
Indian man: They eat last to digest.
Ram Jethmalani: The sugar produces energy to digest your food.
Giriraja: No, no, I will take. (taking prasadam)
Prabhupada: So I am very glad that you have taken the prasadam. I am pleased. Therefore I wanted that you eat before me. It is a great pleasure.
Ram Jethmalani: We are also very fortunate to eat before you, sir.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. (Hindi) You take. There is. No. There is sink? There is sink?
Devotee: Here, Srila Prabhupada. Here.
Prabhupada: All right.
Indian man: Dr. Patel and myself, we are friends. I am also practitioner in Delhi. Dr. Ramam.
Prabhupada: Oh, you are also medical man. Oh. (Hindi conversation) Prasada-seva. Not to waste. (Hindi)
Indian man: Of all souls, we are sinners.
Prabhupada: Why sinners? (Hindi conversation)
Giriraja: Thank you. We will have to meet then.
Ram Jethmalani: Any time. You just let me know; whatever, any problems, I am yours.
Prabhupada: Jaya. (guests leave) By feeding, how much one becomes obliged. (Hindi) You don't... Any gentleman, give him something. Give him prasadam.
Tamala Krsna: He ate everything.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, everything. Very sumptuous, pleasing. They were hungry.
Tamala Krsna: He hadn't eaten all day. That's why Giriraja was insisting he must take.
Prabhupada: No, you must insist. Yesterday he has called me.
Tamala Krsna: He said, "I am yours."
Prabhupada: So handle with them very cautiously. He'll take certainly. Intelligent men.
Devotee: Next week we are going to Pakistan also.
Prabhupada: Pakistan we have got a friend. You go and he will receive. So what is the conclusion of Atreya Rsi? [break] Read it. [break] ...have been introduced in the world. That's a fact. All hodge-podge nonsense, philosophy nonsense, everything, speculation. No solid instruction about the necessity or goal of life. Do you accept this or not?
Devotee: Fortunate.
Prabhupada: Yes. You must be convinced. Otherwise you cannot convince others. (end)

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