Evening Darsana

July 6, 1976, Washington, D.C.
Prabhupada: ...cure the diseased condition of our existence, and then it will be cured. For that purpose, we have to execute austerity, penance, tapasa brahmacaryena samena damena ca [SB 6.1.13]. These practices are there. But there is one practice that is called bhakti. Kevalaya bhaktya vasudeva-parayanah. One.... Vasudeva-parayanah, vasudeva sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah. When one understands that Vasudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, is everything, then he becomes the greatest mahatma. That platform is achieved after many, many births. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate vasudeva sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. So Vasudeva is canvassing, sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "You just surrender to Me, I shall give you all protection." And one has to come to this position, vasudeva sarvam iti. So one who is intelligent, he will take it immediately that bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19], "After many, many births, if I have come to this position, that 'Vasudeva is everything,' then why not accept Him immediately?" That is intelligent. Why shall I wait for many, many births? I have got now sense, I have got this human body. Let me do it immediately. That is sense. And if you want to wait for many, many births to come to this conclusion.... We can do that. That is our misfortune. So our Krsna consciousness movement is that you take immediately, without waiting for many, many births. Don't wait. Now we have got human form of body, and here is opportunity, sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], to take shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Why not do it now?
Indian lady: And it is sure to go through in this life if you try this?
Prabhupada: Yes, it is sure. He says aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah. It is sure. It is not speculation. It is fact. As soon as you surrender, you immediately become freed from all sinful reaction of life. And we suffer on account of sinful reaction of life. So intelligence is that "Here is the opportunity, mam eva ye pradadyante mayam etam taranti te, to get out of the clutches of the influence of material energy. Why not take it now?" That is wanted. Vasudeva sarvam iti sa mahatmah su-durlabhah.
Guest (1) (Indian man): When you talk of Krsna, sometimes when we talk with our friends here, to ask you this thing, when you talk of Krsna, do we mean that we are talking of Krsna of Mahabharata, or we are talking of the Krsna the God, or the supreme head?
Prabhupada: Krsna Mahabharata and Krsna God is the same person. Why do you differentiate? My question will be how do you differentiate the Krsna Mahabharata and Krsna God different? Because Krsna is speaking Bhagavad-gita. That is a chapter in the Mahabharata. So how do you differentiate? What is the cause that you are differentiating?
Guest (1): Well, I think that the...
Prabhupada: No, you think you have already explained. But where is the basis of your thinking like that? Because everyone knows the Mahabharata battle was there, Battle of Kuruksetra, that is a chapter in the Mahabharata. And Krsna is the speaker in that Battle of Kuruksetra and Arjuna is the fighter. How do you take away the Krsna of Mahabharata from the Battlefield of Kuruksetra? What is your reason?
Guest (1): No, that is all right. Krsna, we call... But do we take it, do you take it...
Prabhupada: You have to take it, because there is no difference. As soon as you bring in Mahabharata and Krsna, the Krsna is the same. You cannot take it differently. Because Krsna is speaking to one of the parties of the fighters, the Kurus and the Pandavas, and that is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavah [Bg. 1.1]. Yuyutsavah means two parties desiring to fight. Who are those parties? Mamakah pandavas caiva [Bg. 1.1]. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. That is the Mahabharata history. So how you can differentiate this Krsna, that Krsna? There is no possibility, it is imagination. The beginning is Mahabharata and the Bhagavad-gita.
Guest (2) (Indian man): Swamiji, excuse me for this, I read an article recently. One of my secretaries he brought that article to me, it was written by Dr. Bannerji in India-he's a professor at Calcutta University. And he says that Krsna and the Mahabharata, the Kuruksetra, that is all a visionation.
Prabhupada: That is his foolishness. He's a fool. He does not know the facts, and he has posed himself as a learned scholar. That is the difficulty-fools and rascals presenting themselves as scholar and misrepresenting. People are being misguided. Because he is a learned scholar, you are citing his example. But he is a fool. He does not know what is Mahabharata, what is Krsna. And still, he wants to say something, that is his foolishness. He does not know, and still he wants to speak something. That is cheating. The cheating propensity is there for conditioned souls. He does not know one thing, still he wants to speak as an authority. That is cheating. How you can differentiate? If you are actually student of Mahabharata, then how we can differentiate the speaker in the Battlefield of Kuruksetra and Krsna? Krsna is accepted there as Bhagavan. Whenever Vyasadeva writes Krsna statements, he writes bhagavan uvaca. He's Bhagavan, as well as He's a historical person in the Mahabharata. He never writes krsna uvaca, he writes bhagavan uvaca. And Arjuna admits, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan purusam adyam [Bg. 10.12], "You are the Supreme Person." How can you differentiate Krsna of Mahabharata and Krsna of Bhagavad-gita, Krsna...? These are miscalculations.
Guest (1): No, sir, we didn't say Krsna of Mahabharata; we said that when you read the Vedic literatures, there comes some nirguna-brahman and saguna-brahman. Now my question...
Prabhupada: But Krsna is param brahman.
Guest (1): Yes, but my plain feeling came, sir...
Prabhupada: No, no. First of all, the Brahman, there are... We are all Brahman, living entities. We are simply thinking "I am this body." So when we are... That I was speaking, liberation. When we come to the conclusion that "I am not this body," aham brahmasmi... So you are already Brahman, but you are, forgetfully, you are thinking that you are Indian. That is maya. We are all Brahman, but due to our ignorance, lack of knowledge, we are thinking "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," "I am this," "I am that." That is maya. So when you actually understand that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," that is the fact. Then that condition is called brahma-bhutah. Now we are jiva-bhutah. We are thinking "I am individual person of this country, of this religion." That is jiva-bhutah. But when we understand that we are not jiva-bhutah, we are brahma-bhutah, that is our liberated position. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. When one becomes actually in understanding that "I am not this body, I am spirit soul," then my all responsibility of this bodily condition immediately ceases. I am not this body. And why I am working for this body? Why I am in ignorance? That is called brahma-bhutah. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati [Bg. 18.54]. That is liberated stage. So we are already Brahman, there is no question of becoming Brahman. We are mistaking something else, that "I am not Brahman." So when we come to the actual understanding, aham brahmasmi, that is called brahma-bhutah stage. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kanksati samah sarvesu... [Bg. 18.54]. Then he see everyone on equal level, that every soul is Brahman.
That is sama-darsinah. He sees the same soul within a learned brahmana and within a dog. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. That is the stage of bhakti.
So when you come to the standard of bhakti, then you can understand Krsna. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. Unless you come to that stage, you cannot understand Krsna, you will mistake. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. This siddhi means to become liberated from the bodily concept of life. So out of many millions of people, one gets the opportunity of becoming siddha, brahma-bhutah, and yatatam api siddhanam kascin mam vetti tattvatah [Bg. 7.3]. And those who are siddhas, liberated, out of many of them, kascin mam vetti tattvatah. So how this Mr. Bannerji will understand Krsna? He is not a bhakta, he cannot understand. He can talk of the honey within the bottle. He cannot taste it. If he wants to taste, somebody must be able to open the bottle and give him little. Then he'll get. Otherwise, let him lick up the bottle. (laughter) That's all. So those who are licking the bottle, they cannot say what is the taste of the honey. One must actually taste. That is possible, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55], that taste is available by the bhaktas, not by the so-called scholars. That is not possible. Nayam atma pravacanena labhyah. That is Vedic injunction. Na medhaya, na bahuna srutena. You cannot realize self by your intelligence or by your learning or by your brain. Nayam atma pravacanena labhyah na bahuna srutena. So when the atma, Paramatma, reveals Himself to somebody, he can understand. And that revelation is possible when you are a bhakta. Otherwise, it is not... It clearly says, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. It never says "By brain, one can understand." Never says, "By speculation, one can understand." No, this is not the process. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. In the beginning, He said kascin vetti mam tattvatah. Yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3]. Those who are siddhas, already liberated, out of them, many, many, still, they are unable to understand, tattvatah, in truth. But here He says, bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. Only through bhakti one can understand in truth what is Krsna. Otherwise it is not possible. Because one is scholar he can understand Krsna, that is not the fact.
Mr. Deyani: But this paradox which is existing mostly in Vedas terms, that the form of the God is neti neti, and they say that whichever people like Rama and Krsna, they call it, is a...
Prabhupada: They say! What they say, they have no value. Because if it is a fact that one can understand God through bhakti, so whatever bhakta says, that is value. What a nonsense says, it has no value. It has no value. "They say." First of all, you have to think what they are. Are they speculator or bhakta? Just like beginning of Bhagavad-gita Krsna said bhakto 'si, "I am talking to you Bhagavad-gita because you are My bhakta." So it is the subject matter..., bhagavan is the subject matter for the bhakta, not for others. Others, they will speculate only. They will never understand what is Krsna.
Guest (3) (Indian man): Yesterday you said:
yada yada hi dharmasya
glanir bhavati bharata
abhyutthanam adharmasya
tadatmanam srjamy aham
[Bg. 4.7]
Prabhupada: Yes, this is dharmasya glanir. That those who are not bhaktas, speculators, they are talking of God. This is dharmasya glanir. How they can talk of God? They cannot talk. Even they are talking, that is misleading, because nobody can talk of God unless you are devotee of God. You see? Bhakto 'si. Fourth Chapter. The subject matter of Bhagavad-gita is to be understood by a bhakta, not by a speculator. Read it.
Pusta Krsna: Sa evayam maya te 'dya yogah proktah puratanah [Bg. 4.3].
Prabhupada: Ah, "I am just talking to you that puratanah, old yoga system, which I spoke to the sun-god." "Why you are talking to me?" Then?
Pusta Krsna: Bhakto 'si me...
Prabhupada: Bhakto 'si me. He was not a Vedantist, he was a soldier. How the soldier can understand the highest topics of bhakti-yoga? Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. It is the yoga. How a soldier... Arjuna was not a Vedantist, he was a fighter. There was a doubt that "How a soldier can understand?" Therefore Krsna says, bhakto 'si, "You can understand because you are My bhakta." The first qualification, one must be a bhakta. Then he can understand. Otherwise it is not possible.
Mr. Deyani: How then can the God come in a human form, because human, when you talk of human body, it is a limited...
Prabhupada: He does not come in human form. He is like human being, dvi-bhuja. That is also explained in the Bhagavad-gita. He's... In the Bible it is said that man is made after God. The human being, two hands, two legs, this body they have got, that is the original form of God. But because He comes in that form, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam [Bg. 9.11], they think that He is a man. His original form is (like) that. But because we are habituated to see two hands, two legs of human being, we take Him as human being. But that is His original form. Avajananti mam mudha. Find out. So if we accept Him as a human being like us, then we are mudha, rascals. He says avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam param bhavam ajananto [Bg. 9.11]. They do not know what is behind this human form. God is omnipotent, almighty. He can take any form He likes. You cannot check Him. You cannot say "How Brahman can come in a human form?" Why He cannot come? If He is all-powerful, where is the difficulty? Taking your argument, if Brahman is all-powerful, then where is the difficulty for Him to come as a human being?
Guest (2): No, there cannot be no difficulty. That is reasonable.
Prabhupada: But if we take Him... Just like here there are so many gentlemen, now here is a lawyer or here is a high-court judge, and if I take him, that he's also an ordinary man, that is my mistake. Even if he comes as ordinary visitor, still he's high-court judge. His position is not declined.
Guest (2): That, sir, we will have to accept.
Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna, even you take that He has come as human being, still He is Krsna, He is God. That is explained.
Translation: "Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be."
Guest (2): Yes, but these type of statements have been made in all the other religions also. The prophet always speaks like...
Prabhupada: Yes, the prophet can speak. Prophet is representative of God.
Guest (2): Yes, it is just like that, sir, just you said it is like a small pond and big pond. No doubt, He is a big light. You cannot that thing. But what my confusion is, is this thing, that we have to, and a bhakta will also, with a limited sense, will never be able to go to that extent unless he has to surrender to some bigger power than him. And what I think...
Prabhupada: That we, we take Krsna as the bigger power.
Guest (2): Sure, we have to take. This is my... We have to take a bigger power. Otherwise...
Prabhupada: So if we take Krsna as bigger power, there is no controversy. Whatever He says you have to accept.
Guest (2): No, we have to take like this. Just like we have to take even some of this, any statement you make, we are going to take it because we think people of your status, who have experienced the life, which I didn't do, they are the authority on that thing.
Prabhupada: No, if you accept Krsna authority, then at least He is bigger than you.
Guest (2): Yes, sure. Not only authority on this thing. Because they have experienced, they have gone through that stage. And definitely we have to, because the..., just like from a teacher a boy learns, and it is that method. You have to learn from a higher person.
Prabhupada: So you do accept Krsna as the highest authority, and not only you accept, but all other authorities, they accept. Find out this verse. Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12].
ahus tvam rsayah sarve
devarsir naradas tatha
asito devalo vyasah
svayam caiva bravisi me
Prabhupada: So this is confirmation that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So if we accept Him as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, then you have to accept Him as He says.
Guest (2): As a great power, yes.
Prabhupada: Not great power, but greatest power. Nobody is greater than Him. That is accepted by the direct listener of Bhagavad-gita, Arjuna. And he is giving evidences of Vyasadeva, Asita, Devala, Narada, they are authorities. And in the recent years, the acaryas Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka and Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they have all accepted. And He speaks also. Then where is doubt? Where is doubt?
Guest (2): No, I just want to clear this thing, that thing I accept, sir, this thing that it is a great power, the supreme power.
Prabhupada: Not a great, the great power. Mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. There is no more greater power than Him. That is His position.
Guest (2): My point is, sometimes this, a difference comes in this thing. Suppose a man of other religion says, okay...
Prabhupada: No, no, it is not question of religion. It is a question of God. God is great. That is accepted by all religions. So if Krsna is great, then He is God. Where is the argument?
Guest (2): Then they didn't come, just like you stated, that...
Prabhupada: Then you have to study Krsna, that where is the great, the only great. Then you'll understand. God is great, there is... No religion will differ in this connection. But if find that "Yes, Krsna is the greatest," then you have to accept. There is no other argument. So I'll take a little time go to shower. Hare Krsna. (devotees and guests offer obeisances)
Hari-sauri: Srila Prabhupada is coming back in about five minutes, he's just going to the bathroom. [break] (Prabhupada returns) ...original Back to Godhead.
Svarupa Damodara: We got it from the Library of Congress.
Prabhupada: So God is great. Now we have to analyze what is the greatness. A man is supposed to be great when he is very rich. A man is supposed to be great when he is very wise, man of knowledge, strength, reputation. So item by item, you analyze and see, you'll see Krsna is the greatest. By reasoning. Therefore He is God. They have been analyzed. You'll find in The Nectar of Devotion, the Gosvamis have analyzed the characteristics of Krsna, and they found Him the greatest. So if God is great, and He is the greatest, then He is God. How can you deny it? At least, we can see in the Bhagavad-gita, the little knowledge given by Krsna, it is still standing as the greatest. Five thousand years past, nobody could give such a book of knowledge throughout the whole world. The Bhagavad-gita is studied not only by the Indians and Hindus but by all scholars of the world. Even such persons who think that there is somebody greater than Krsna, they also read Bhagavad-gita and they recite from the Bhagavad-gita. Even Sankaracarya, the leader of the Mayavadis, he says Bhagavad-gita kincid adhita. Is it not? Does he not say?
Guest (3): Was it not true also Sankaracarya Swamiji who said vande krsna jagat-guru?
Guest (3): Vande Krsna jagat-guru.
Prabhupada: So he's the leader of the impersonalists, he accepts krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Sa bhagavan svayam krsna. Then what to speak of the Vaisnava acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya. Ramanujacarya has given Bhagavad-gita comments, every line Vedic evidence. You read Bhagavad-gita commented by Ramanujacarya, you'll find every line he has quoted from Vedas. So there is no doubt about it. Simply one has to study very intelligently about Krsna, then he will come to the conclusion that He is God.
Guest (4) (Indian man): I'd like to ask a question, but I'm a little bit timid about doing so, but I will ask it. Would it be possible to think of.... Well, first I have to say that I tend to think of religions as personalities. Would it be possible...
Prabhupada: Why?
Guest (3): All the religions.
Prabhupada: No, no, why you think like that? You are not authority.
Guest (4): I merely say that I do. I don't say that I'm right to do so. I don't say why, I simply do.
Prabhupada: This is due to our limited knowledge. Because I am a person, I have got my limited knowledge. I am thinking of God, "If God is a person, then He has limited knowledge." That means I am bringing God to my level. That is my defect. We say God is all-powerful, almighty, still He cannot become a person. Why do you think that? If He is almighty, He can become person. Then why do you deny it?
Guest (4): I don't.
Prabhupada: Then there is no question, you see.
Guest (4): But I still want to ask a question, not that it's a right question, but I do want to ask it. I'm not sure that I can formulate it, but it would be a little like this, maybe. Uh, uh, well, maybe I don't have to ask it. I'll skip it. (laughter)
Prabhupada: No, you are Christian?
Guest (4): No. I am...
Prabhupada: You are not Christian? Whatever you may be...
Guest (4): Would it be possible to saythis is my question-would it be possible to say that all the religions are, as it were, aspects of the personality of Krsna?
Prabhupada: No, our definition of religion is that religion is the word or the law given by God. That is religion.
Guest (4): Yes, but then there are these religions. There's more than one.
Prabhupada: First of all, we have to agree on the principle. Religion means the word of God or the law given by God. That is religion.
Guest (4): But I go into a Catholic Church and I feel a different environmental personality from the environmental personality I feel when I come here. Or, and, if I'm looking for God, which I think is here, I feel God, certainly I feel it very strongly, in your personwell, that's a brutal thing to say, but I doand that is...
Prabhupada: That we have already explained. Because every living entity is part and parcel of God, so just like the particle of gold, the gold is there. There is no doubt about it.
Guest (4): Yes, but sometimes you feel it more than at other times.
Prabhupada: That may be big particle or small particle. But particle there may be different sizes, that is another thing, but as soon as you get a particle, the gold is already there. Similarly, whenever you find any living entity, God is there.
Guest (4): That certainly answers my question then. It really does. Thank you.
Prabhupada: And actually God is there with the living entity, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. He particularly pointed out, "Here is God within their core of the heart." Now the yogis, they try to find out God in his body, that is called meditation. Dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginah [SB 12.13.1]. This is process of the yogis, to find out God within himself. In the Bhagavad-gita it is also stated jagatvena, tat tvena (?) Find out. So God is everywhere, there is no doubt about it. Within you, within me, within the atom, everywhere. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.35]. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita also, maya tatam idam sarvam, "I am everywhere." So God is everywhere, that is God's omnipresence, omnipotency. But still God has His actual position. Na caham tesv avasthitah.
So this is a great science. If we understand, then we can understand what is God, what is His position, how He is great, everything. That is His greatness. Although He is in His own abode, still, He is everywhere. That is His greatness. I am here, I am not in my bedroom, but about God it is said, goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhuto [Bs. 5.37]. That is God. He is far, far away from our, this planet. There is a planet, goloka eva nivasaty. He's there, but still He is everywhere. That is His greatness. That is the distinction between Him and us. We are in one place, but we are not all-pervading. In another verse it is explained, ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata ksetra-ksetrajnayor [Bg. 13.3]. Ksetra ksetrajnah. The living entity is ksetrajnah, one who knows about his body. The body is called ksetra, field, field of activities. I am working with this body. The cat is working with his body, dog is working with his body, mosquito is working with his body. The body is the field of activity, and the soul within the body is the owner of the body, or occupier of the body, not owner. So God is also with him. Therefore He says ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata. God is present along with the living entity, I or you, in everything. I know the pains and pleasure of my body, you know the pains and pleasure of your body, but God knows the pains and pleasure of your body, my body, his body, this body, that body. That is the difference between God and you. These things are explained. Go on, read it.
Translation: "O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion."
Prabhupada: That is greatness. This is the distinction. God is great. I know about my body, you know about your body, but God knows about your body and my body and his body and every... That is greatness. That is explained. That is the distinction. I am small, He is great. I cannot think beyond the scope of this body, or little more. But he knows everything. Vedaham samatitani [Bg. 7.26]. That is His greatness. So in this way, we study the greatness of God, then we can understand what is God and what is not God.
Guest (4): Thanks.
Prabhupada: What is the purport?
Pusta Krsna: "While discussing the subject of this body and the owner of the body, the soul and the Supersoul, we shall find three different topics of study: the Lord, the living entity, and matter. In every field of activities, in every body, there are two souls: the individual soul and the Supersoul. Because the Supersoul is the plenary expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, Krsna says, 'I am also the knower, but I am not the individual owner of the body. I am the superknower. I am present in every body as the Paramatma, or Supersoul.' One who studies the subject matter of the field of activity and the knower of the field very minutely, in terms of this Bhagavad-gita, can attain to knowledge. The Lord says: 'I am the knower of the field of activities in every individual body.' The individual may be the knower of his own body, but he is not in knowledge of other bodies. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is present as the Supersoul in all bodies, knows everything about all bodies. He knows all the different bodies of all the various species of life. A citizen may know everything about his patch of land, but the king knows not only his palace but all the properties possessed by the individual citizens. Similarly, one may be the proprietor of the body individually, but the Supreme Lord is the proprietor of all bodies. The king is the original proprietor of the kingdom, and the citizen is the secondary proprietor. Similarly, the Supreme Lord is the supreme proprietor of all bodies. The body consists of the senses. The Supreme Lord is Hrsikesa, which means controller of the senses. He is the original controller of the senses just as the king is the original controller of all the activities of the state, and the citizens are secondary controllers. The Lord also says: 'I am also the knower.' This means that He is the superknower; the individual soul knows only his particular body. In the Vedic literature, it is stated as follows:
[break] This body is called the ksetra, and within it dwells the owner of the body and the Supreme Lord, who knows both the body and the owner of the body. Therefore He is called the knower of all fields. The distinction between the field of activities, the owner of activities, and the supreme owner of activities is described as follows. Perfect knowledge of the constitution of the body, the constitution of the individual soul, and the constitution of the Supersoul is known in terms of Vedic literature as jnanam. That is the opinion of Krsna. To understand both the soul and the Supersoul as one yet distinct is knowledge. One who does not understand the field of activity activity and the knower of activity is not in perfect knowledge. One has to understand the position of prakrti (nature), and purusa (the enjoyer of the nature), and isvara (the knower who dominates or controls nature and the individual soul). One should not confuse the three in their different capacities. One should not confuse the painter, the painting and the easel. This material world, which is the field of activities, is nature, and the enjoyer of nature is the living entity, and above them both is the supreme controller, the Personality of Godhead. It is stated in the Vedic language: bhokta bhogyam preritaram ca matva sarvam proktam tri-vidham brahmam etat. There are three Brahman conceptions: prakrti is Brahman as the field of activities, and the jiva (individual soul) is also Brahman and is trying to control material nature, and the controller of both of them is also Brahman, but He is the factual controller."
Prabhupada: Therefore, He is called Param Brahman. Sarvam khalv idam brahma. Everything is Brahman, but He is Param Brahman. That is accepted by Arjuna, param brahma param brahma pavitram.
Pusta Krsna: "In this chapter it will also be explained that out of the two knowers, one is fallible and the other is infallible; one is superior and the other subordinate. One who understands the two knowers of the field to be one and the same contradicts the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who states here very clearly that 'I am also the knower of the field of activity.' One who misunderstands a rope to be a serpent is not in knowledge."
Prabhupada: He says "I am also." Ksetrajnam ca. Ca means "also." They are two. Individual, ksetrajnah, and the collective, ksetrajnam ca. There is ksetrajnam, I am also there. They are two, not one. Ksetrajnam capi ca api, ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi. As soon as there is ca, "and," then there are two. Not one. One is subordinate and one is supreme. Therefore He is addressed, param brahma. Brahma..., jiva is also Brahman. But He is Param Brahman. Paramatma: Jiva is also atma, but He is Paramatma. Paramesvara: jiva is also isvara, but He is Paramesvara. Isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. This is Vedic version. There are isvaras, controllers, many controllers, but parama controller, Paramesvara, is Krsna.
That is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, aham adir hi devanam... [Bg 10.2].
He is Param Brahma, He is the supreme great. You study and then you will understand. But without understanding, if we take that He is also a human being, that is mistake. Param bhavam ajananto mama bhuta-mahesvaram [Bg. 9.11]. "He does not know what is My background, he's a mudha." Therefore mudha, avajananti mam mudha. We should not remain a mudha; we should be intelligent to understand Krsna. And that is possible only through bhakti. Krsna specifically mentions, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. He never says, "By jnana, yoga, karma, one can understand Me." No. Bhakti. Bhakto si, "You will understand, Arjuna, because you are My bhakta." That is first qualification to understand Krsna. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena [Bg. 4.34]. A bhakta is submissive. And nondevotees, they are not submissive. They are so proud that they say "I am Bhagavan, I am God." So that attitude will not help to understand. (Prabhupada converses in Hindi with an Indian lady about how one does not have to renounce family life to understand Krsna.) He says param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. He understands perfectly. There is no question of grhastha or sannyasi. It is a question of understanding. And Arjuna is grhastha, politician, fighter, and still he is selected to understand Bhagavad-gita. So grhastha. (Hindi) ...in grhastha life or sannyasi, Caitanya Mahaprabhu also says like that, kiba vipra kiba sudra nyasi kene naya. (Hindi) I shall speak in English so that others.... Kiba vipra, whether one is a brahmana, kiba sudra, or whether he is a sudra, nyasi kene naya, or whether he is a sannyasi. That means whether he is a grhastha or brahmana, or.... There are eight varnasramabrahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra, and brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha, whatever he may be, out of these eight categories.
Anyone who understands Krsna perfectly, he is guru. Just like Arjuna is our guru, but he's a grhastha, he's a soldier, he's a ksatriya. He's neither brahmana nor sannyasi nor Vedantist, nothing of the sort. But he knows Krsna. Therefore he is guru. So grhastha (Hindi). Sravanam, this is the first step of bhakti. Hear about Krsna from the right source. Otherwise you will be misguided. Therefore Krsna recommends, tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. You have to go to a person where you can surrender. (Hindi)
Guest (3): How to...?
Prabhupada: That we have to test, whether I can surrender to him. That we have to behave with him. Therefore according to system, one has to study that "Whether I can surrender to him?" If you think that "No, I know better than him," don't accept a formal guru. That is mistake. And guru also will see, "He's appealing to me, he is going to accept my discipleship, let me see whether he is qualified." Then there should be guru and sisya, not that as a fashion. Like Arjuna, Arjuna accepted Krsna as guru after talking with Him. Find out that verse, sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam tvam prapannam.
Prabhupada: When he was convinced that "I do not find anyone else to give me instruction," then he surrendered.
Translation: "Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me."
Prabhupada: Everyone is perplexed conditioned. In this material world, you cannot find anyone who is not perplexed. Is there anyone who is not perplexed? Can anyone say that "I am not perplexed"? (laughs) Everyone is. Therefore everyone requires guru. But a guru knows. Guru means like Krsna or His representative. Yes?
Guest (4): Sir, you explained that Paramatma is within everyone, every individual, human and animal alike, and you also explained that Paramatma is within every atom, too, within the universe. Does that means that I have one Paramatma plus about six trillion other Paramatmas in the....
Prabhupada: No, Paramatma is the same. Paramatma is the same. Not the Paramatma within yourself is different from the Paramatma within myself. The Paramatma is the same. Just like the sun. If you put here millions of pots with water, in each pot you'll find the sun. But the sun is one. When the sun is on the head, you just phone your friend five hundred miles or five thousand miles away, "Can you tell me where is the sun?" He will say "It is on my head." How it is possible? Everyone will say, "Now the sun is on my head." That is Paramatma. He is one, but everyone will say "He's within me, over my head." That is Paramatma. Paramatma is one, but He is everywhere. That is Paramatma. And I am atma, I am only here, that's all. That is the difference. He's not different. Because He is within the core of the heart of a dog and within the core of the heart of a human being, He is different? No. He is the same. Therefore, panditah samah darsinah.
Guest (4): What about the other atoms within me or the dog? Do you understand what I'm getting at? There are millions of atoms.
Hari-sauri: He's saying this body is comprised of atoms, so the Paramatma is present within this body alongside the individual soul that's operating this body. But there's also millions of other atoms, and Krsna is also within the atoms as well.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guest (4): I thank you.
Vipina: Mr. Deyani brought a person that he studies under one time to meet me at the temple, and he took a very remote verse out of the Bhagavad-gita about sacrifice, and his idea is that to perform yajna is the way to purify the universe in this age of Kali-yuga, and Deyani was very supportive of him. So I was wondering maybe you could explain a little.
Prabhupada: Now yajna means, what does it mean, "by yajna"?
Mr. Deyani: Swamiji, he says that whole Vedic religion is in five, yajna-dana-tapah-karma-sraddhaya.
Prabhupada: That is stated in Bhagavad-gita, yajna-dana-tapah-karma na tyajyam karyam eva tat.
Mr. Deyani: Yes, he said that. Now he brought one more point, he says all the world over people have forgotten. Every morning we do..., he says yajna has many meanings, but he says yajna means to burn the cow ghee in the fire, and this fumigation, he gives here certain purifies the atmosphere and thus, if you do it at the right time in the morning, when the sunthere is some time which he givesand in the evening, he says you will yourself see that your mind changes, your prana, it affect your prana, and then it affects your mind, and if you areanyway, you will try to understand yourself by yourself. Once you do, he says it's just a physical aid, it is not any spiritual thing, but this is a physical aid. And that is what our, there are, many Americans are doing there this program. And he gives a very nice scientific background of that thing, which convinces me that what we Hindus, what our Vedic literature, what they have said, it has some scientific meaning behind it, why we did it.
Prabhupada: But thing is, accepting his statement, first of all, where is ghee?
Mr. Deyani: Well, in this country you can get.
Prabhupada: In this country, but there are places there is no ghee. Then how you will perform? Your first proposition is ghee, but where is ghee? It is all dalda. Now how you can perform yajna? I am talking as a matter of argument. If ghee is not available, then how yajna will be performed?
Mr. Deyani: That is actually the question when I first met him. (laughter) I asked him, really, I told him...
Prabhupada: Then his proposal is failure. Now you have to take the instruction in the Vedas, that
In the Kali-yuga, the real yajna is hari-kirtana. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasah. Sumedhasah, those who have got good brain, they perform this yajna, hari-kirtana. So there is no condition. God has give you the tongue. Either you are here or there, you can chant Hare Krsna. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasah.
Indian lady: Is number important in chanting? It has to be certain number, or you can just chant?
Prabhupada: Number? Yes, of course, no. Actually, kirtaniyah sada harih [Cc. Adi 17.31]. Always to be chanted. But because you cannot do that, therefore you must fix up a number. Sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih. Sankhya-purvaka, that "I must chant so many times." That is determination. I have prescribed to my disciples that "You must chant at least sixteen rounds." That is very easy. But there is sankhya. Sankhya-purvaka-nama-gana-natibhih. The Gosvamis, they used to do that. So it is; otherwise, kirtaniyah sada harih. The chanting should go on twenty-four hours. Just like Haridasa Thakura used to do. He was simply chanting. But that is not possible for ordinary man. Therefore they should have a fixed up, that "I must chant so many times." That will fix up the determination. Bhajante mam drdha-vratah. There must be some drdha-vratah, that "I must do it." Then the devotion grows very firm. If we become lenient, "All right, I shall do later on..." No, must be done. Drdha-vratah. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah [Bg. 9.13]. Drdha-vratah. Everything should be determined. Then spiritual progress will be rapid.
Mr. Deyani: So many, when we go to our offices, since we come from India, naturally the very intelligent young boys and girls, they ask various questions to us. And just for the sake of their curiosity, naturally they ask the question about the Krsna consciousness, we try to explain our ways, whatever we know. What explanation we have got when they put the example of, you know, that sixteen-year-old guru and something like that kind of things? What explanation we have got in that circumstance. In that circumstance, what explanation we have got as an individual for the Krsna consciousness?
Pusta Krsna: This young boy guru, when they bring up this subject matter to the Indians who have come from India who are working here in America, they feel a little embarrassed, loss for words or explanation what to say, that this is their Indian culture, they feel they don't know how to represent themselves.
Mr. Deyani: How to represent the Krsna consciousness? This is my question. How to represent it? What to say to them?
Prabhupada: What is your question? That means you do not know about him.
Mr. Deyani: We don't know about those gurus...
Prabhupada: You say "I do not know about him," that's all. The simple truth that "I do not know about it." Why you are very serious about him? It is not very important matter.
Mr. Deyani: I even don't know who is he. (laughter) To tell you the truth, I even don't know. (laughter) My wife, she sometimes, why she watch him on the television. There was a program or something like that, that now we, I don't watch that anymore.
Prabhupada: It is not important.
Guest (2): Swamiji, you just said about the guru, in the Bhagavad-gita, again after He is explaining to Arjuna all what He said, then ultimately he comes and he sayswhich the problem in our practical life comes which I see, I see it with mehe spoke very frankly, cancalam hi manah krsna pramathi balavad drdham [Bg. 6.34].
Prabhupada: Huh? What is that?
Guest (2): After, you know, the Krsna, He has explained to Arjuna all the religion and spirituality, and still a man of the caliber of Arjuna speaks, then he said, cancalam hi manah krsna pramathi balavad drdham, that verse.
Prabhupada: That is said in the Sixth Chapter [Bg. 6.34].
Guest (2): That comes in practical life. One might even say that you try to go to a spiritual area, then all these things do come in everybody's life.
Prabhupada: No, that was spoken in connection with practicing yoga.
Guest (2): But Arjuna got it due to guru, like Krsna means is it possible in this age if one has the right guru, a man, he can elevate himself?
Prabhupada: You can take Arjuna as guru. Krsna spoke to Arjuna, evam parampara-praptam [Bg. 4.2]. He directly listened to Him. And he's guru therefore, because the guru is by the parampara. So he understood Krsna. So you take Arjuna's instruction. Make Arjuna your guru. What does he say? He accepts Krsna, Param Brahman. So we accept Krsna as Param Brahma. Where is the difficulty? Arjuna, by his direct experience talking with Krsna, he understood Him that "Krsna, you are Param Brahman." So you take the words of Arjuna and accept Him as Param Brahman. Where is the difficulty? Just like the same example, one lawyer giving example, the judgment of other court. That is accepted. So Arjuna is accepting Krsna as Param Brahman. So why don't you accept? Where is the difficulty? You accept Arjuna as your guru, and whatever he says, you accept it. The difficulty is that we do not accept guru. That is the difficulty. Otherwise where is difficulty? Five thousand years, Krsna spoke to Arjuna, but what Arjuna understood, that is there. So you accept it. What we are doing? We are accepting. That's all. Krsna said mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7], "There is no more superior truth beyond Me." We are accepting, that's all. Where is the difficulty? But if you do not accept, who can make you to accept? It is not possible. Krsna therefore said mam ekam saranam vraja. "You do it." He never forces him. He's God, He can force, "You must do it." No, he doesn't say "You do it." Not only that, He says yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63], "Whatever you like, you do." What is that verse?
Prabhupada: Iti te jnanam, huh?
Pusta Krsna: Akhyatam.
Prabhupada: Akhyatam, "I have spoken to you everything about knowledge." Then?
Prabhupada: Guhyad guhyataram. "Jnanam confidential, more confidential, I have spoken to you, one after another." Then?
Pusta Krsna: Vimrsyaitad asesena,
Prabhupada: "Now you consider, vimrsya. Asesena, without any doubt, fully consider." Then?
Pusta Krsna: Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63].
Prabhupada: Yathecchasi tatha kuru, full liberty. He never says that "You must do it." No, He never forces. "I have spoken to you everything of all knowledge. Now you consider it, deliberate deliberately. Then you decide yourself what to do." The liberty is given. "But My opinion is sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That is My opinion. You do it. Otherwise, you do whatever you like." This liberty is there. "But if you, as you are My friend, then I give you the most confidential knowledge." Sarva-guhyatamam, sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. So it is open to everyone to accept or not to accept. But if you want Krsna's opinion, then there is opinion, sarva-dharman parityajya. Now it is up to you.
Guest (5) (Indian man): Swamiji, perhaps you can..., when people ask about this Krsna consciousness movement is only limited to a few full-time devotees, I had expressed, now in Gita, it is expressed, now read the words according to basic extents to people who follow and accept Krsna to practically everyone, to everyone.
Prabhupada: Who? Everyone? Everyone is Krsna? No?
Guest (5): To all the people who want to accept movement.
Anybody who wants to accept Krsna and Gita, he is part of, and he can be a part of the Krsna movement.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Guest (5): He can be a part of the Krsna movement, with whatever, patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26].
Prabhupada: So you read next.
Guest (5):
Prabhupada: Sarva-karmana?
Prabhupada: Vaca?
Prabhupada: Abhyarcya, that is the important word. Sarva-karmana tam abhyarcya. Whatever engagement you may have, with that engagement you abhyarcya, just worship Him. Abhyarcya means worshiping.
Guest (5): Tam abhyarcya.
Prabhupada: Tam abhyarcya, yes. So tam, the supreme, He who worshiped. And He is the Supreme. Mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. So in any position, if you worship Krsna, then it is all right.
Guest (5): But is that correct?
Prabhupada: That is the correct, yes.
Guest (5): So after giving all this in the chapter eighteen, then He points out that despite all these things.
Prabhupada: No, the thing is, best thing is sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66].
Guest (5): Mam ekam saranam vraja.
Prabhupada: But if you cannot do that, then in your position you can also abhyarcya, you can worship Him. And especially in this age, whatever position you are, you can chant Hare Krsna. That is abhyarcya. He Krsna, he hari.
Guest (5): Worship Him.
Prabhupada: Yes, this is worship. This is worshiping. "Engage me in Your service." Just like Haridasa Thakura. He was simply chanting. He was doing nothing. So simply... You are engaged as professor. You go on with your professorship, but chant Hare Krsna. Where is the loss? Rather, your students will learn "Oh, he is such a big professor, he is chanting. Let me chant." You'll be preaching at the same time.
Guest (5): I'm a bureaucrat, no longer a professor.
Prabhupada: Whatever it may be... Because yad yad acarati sresthas tad tad evetaro janah [Bg. 3.21]. If a chief man practices something, the followers also practice. So a businessman, professor, scientist, philosopher, they chant the holy name of God, there is no taxation, no income tax, but the income is very good. (laughter) So why people do not do it?
Guest (5): (Sanskrit)....
Prabhupada: Yes, that is explained by Caitanya,
The holy name of God is so powerful, as good as God. Namnam akari bahudha, He has got thousands of names, hundreds of names, and each name is invested with the power of God Himself. So in this age this chanting of holy name of God is recommended, I can take advantage of it, but I am so unfortunate I have no inclination. So easy thing, but still I am so unfortunate I do not wish to take the name of God. This is stated by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi. "Bhagavan, my Lord, You are so merciful, I can be direct connection with You simply by chanting Your holy name. You have given this facility in this age, and still I am so unfortunate I am not inclined." Tam abhyarcya. We are not inclined to worship. That is the defect. When there is question of worshiping Him, so many things we bring in, not to worship Him, just to counteract the proposal. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. So we bring all kinds of argument how to not to become a bhakta. That is our misfortune. He says "You become My devotee." We are putting arguments, how not to become His devotee. That is our misfortune. We bring all arguments. This is misfortune.
Hari-sauri: Srila Prabhupada, it's 8:30. Want to finish up?
Prabhupada: What is your question?
Vipina: I was talking to Dr. Diksha and I was explaining to him that if he was unable to chant or to become a full-time devotee, that your program for a person in that condition of life, was something like Life Membership Program, whereby he could become a member of the Society, maintain his occupational duty, but become a member and take books and read and try to understand gradually that way. Is that satisfactory, if they can do that much, that would be, some way they would be serving Krsna to your satisfaction? (Prabhupada laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes, we are taking so much labor in writing books. If somebody reads, certainly that is satisfaction. (laughter)
Rupanuga: It is to their benefit, Srila Prabhupada, if they read.
Prabhupada: Yes, I am writing for reading by others.
Rupanuga: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada. What time is the initiation? [break]
Pusta Krsna: ...our temple early in the morning at about seven o'clock Srila Prabhupada will deliver a lecture and also there will be a sacrifice, very ancient sacrifice performed, which is formal initiation, of becoming a disciple of a spiritual master, and you are welcome to come by. It is a very colorful and beautiful ceremony. This will take place tomorrow morning at 7 a.m. here in the temple. Hare Krsna.
Rupanuga: Thank you. (end)

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