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Morning Walk

April 15, 1976, Bombay
Prabhupada: ...detached to that, Jain. So he was advertising about that Jain Muni.
Dr. Patel: Susil Kumar.
Prabhupada: Susil Kumar. He went to San Francisco. He met me there. (aside:) Hare Krsna. So he has come back, so I inquired what is the result of his preaching.
Visala: All glories to Prabhupada!
Prabhupada: He said that he has converted one million persons to be vegetarian. So vegetarian, automatically our disciples, they are automatically vegetarian. There is no separate preaching. And what about the... He was talking about the ahimsa. And I told that vegetarian does not mean ahimsa.
Dr. Patel: The ahimsa should be practiced by... (Hindi)
Prabhupada: No, in the sastra it is said that ahastani sa-hastanam apadani catus-padam.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Prabhupada: Ah, phalguni mahatam tatra.
Prabhupada: Mahatam tatra jivo jivasya jivanam. This is natural, that one jiva is the food for another jiva. So how ahimsa is possible?
Dr. Patel: That has been said in Ramayana by that Matan(?) Muni, you know, Matan Muni who was harboring Saubhari, and then he was killing one elephant and living on the elephant for one year, and all other rsis were against him. He was, I mean, not practicing ahimsa. Then he gave the feast to all those rsis, and the ladu starting moving about. Everywhere there is life, I mean, every grain of the wheat or...
Prabhupada: Yes. So therefore how it is possible? Because, after all, apart from Matan(?) Muni, if this is the rule, that one living entity is the food for another living entity... This is the law of nature. Jivo jivasya jivanam. You cannot starve and live.
Dr. Patel: But sir...
Prabhupada: And practically... Eh?
Dr. Patel: We are killing the body and not... The soul is inkillable.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Don't go to the philosophy. First of all come to the practical. (Dr. Patel laughs) Come to the practical point of view, that after all, you have to eat; otherwise you cannot live. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam. So if you have to live another living entity, then how you can practice this ahimsa? Mean on the basic principle, the ahimsa paramo dharma, where is ahimsa? You have to kill. Either you kill vegetable or animal, you have to kill. Then where is the standing of ahimsa? That is my point.
Dr. Patel: When you kill purposelessly, without any useful...
Prabhupada: No, no. No interpretation. They say that "no killing." So no killing is not possible. That is my point. Then where is the thesis stands, that "We are for not, no killing"?
Dr. Patel: Every action, sir, is, I mean, entangled in this.
Prabhupada: So then our Vaisnava's philosophy is perfect, because we take Krsna prasadam. We don't say vegetables. We are not advocating vegetarianism. We are advocating that "You take Krsna prasadam." How perfect it is. We are not so nonsense that "Because we have become vegetarian, we are perfect." The goats are vegetarian.
Dr. Patel: (laughter) And we are indirectly vegetarians if we eat goats.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Even if we vegetarian are, then how you become big? The goats are vegetarian. Huh? Apadani catus-padam. This vegetable is meant for the catus-padam, for the animals, four-legged animals. If somebody says that "Why shall I take this vegetable? It is meant for the animals. I shall take the animal." That is a good argument. Yes. So to become vegetarian is not ahimsa at all. It is a bogus theory. To become a devotee and take Krsna prasadam, that is perfect. Krsna says, patram puspam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26]. So automatically...
Dr. Patel: He does not say, "Give me a, I mean, a (Hindi)."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: That. Then there is perfection, if you take Krsna prasadam. Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asyopajayate. So this vegetarianism is no good position.
Dr. Patel: No, no, the Jains have, I mean, pushed the vegetarians to a very, I mean, to an extent which is...
Prabhupada: No, no. What is the benefit? The benefit? The goats are vegetarian. Eh? There are so many animals. They are vegetarian. The monkeys are vegetarian.
Dr. Patel: They are perfect vegetarian. Perfect.
Prabhupada: And they live in the forest.
Dr. Patel: They are sannyasis. (laughs)
Prabhupada: But number-one rogue. Each of them keeping one dozen women, at least, and no discrimination between wife or daughter. No discrimination. Just like hogs. That's all. No discrimination.
Yasomati-nandana: Cows are also vegetarians.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Yasomati-nandana: Cows, they are also vegetarians.
Prabhupada: Cows are vegetarian. That's all right. There are many animals, vegetarian. So there is no perfection of life unless we come to the point of Krsna consciousness. Simply by becoming vegetarian, simply by becoming nonviolent, simply by... These are all theories only. It has no value.
Pusta Krsna: The argument is sometimes put forward that not everyone will be able to embrace Krsna consciousness fully. Therefore it may be better for them to accept some portion, like, for example, taking up vegetarianism or even doing hatha-yoga, or something like this is better than nothing.
Prabhupada: No, that is not very essential. Essential is how to think of Krsna. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. He doesn't say that you become vegetarian.
Dr. Patel: That said, tad-artham karma kaunteya mukta-sangah samacara: "You must do everything for Him, even eating."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is vegetarianism.
Prabhupada: Then, then you are... Then automatically he'll become vegetarian. Automatically he'll become vegetarian. If he takes Krsna prasadam, then he is vegetarian automatically.
Pusta Krsna: So it may seem like these other things are stepping-stones to Krsna, but is it necessarily so?
Prabhupada: No stepping-stone. This is the ultimate, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65], these four things. Unless you come to this point, there is no question of perfection.
Dr. Patel: That's right. Then you feel that every action of yours is done for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Not feel, but actually it's an order.
Dr. Patel: Actually doing it.
Prabhupada: Arjuna did not feel; he took order to kill. Not that you manufacture your idea. No. That is not. You take order directly and then do it; otherwise you'll be responsible. Therefore the guru is required to act as representative of Krsna. If he says, "Yes, it is all right," then it is all right. Otherwise not. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah **. Otherwise why guru is required? We must take every moment order from him.
Dr. Patel: Ya bhakti....
Prabhupada: Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau [SU 6.23].
Pusta Krsna: Tasyaite kathita hy arthah.
Prabhupada: Kathita. You cannot manufacture some ideas that "I am feeling I am doing for Krsna." No. That will not be... Direct order. She is going behind?
Pusta Krsna: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Today is a full moon day, and the full tide came at twelve o'clock by night. So after eight o'clock there is a full reverse of it, what do you call it?
Pusta Krsna: Low tide.
Dr. Patel: Low tide. Yes. (Hindi to passerby)
Prabhupada: [break] Garuda. He is perfect vegetarian. You know what is his food? Snakes. (Dr. Patel laughs) And he is carrying the Lord. It is a devotee, you see? He is not vegetarian. And how powerful he is that one sparrow, a small bird, lost his egg. The samudra took it away. And he decided, "I shall dry this samudra." So he began to pick up some water. So Narada Muni was passing. So he asked, "What you are doing?" And "Sir, yes, the samudra has taken my egg, so I shall dry it up." So he said, "But how you can do it? You are so small. You just pray to your head. You are bird, and he is the head of the birds. You just pray to Garuda. He can do it." So he prayed Garuda, and Garuda came and asked samudra, "Immediately deliver; otherwise I shall take step." Immediately it was delivered. Such powerful. Yes. And he was not a vegetarian. (Hindi with Dr. Patel) You become Krsna conscious. That is the... (Hindi with Dr. Patel) (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Thank you very much. Namaskara. Jaya. Hare Krsna. Real culture is how to become Krsna conscious. (Hindi)...no illicit sex, no gambling, automatically. Yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincana sarvair gunais tatra sama... If you simply turn these people to Krsna consciousness, all good qualities will come automatically. All good qualities. That is wanted. And we are practically seeing that. Simply by becoming Krsna conscious, lover of Krsna, they are becoming qualified. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna manorathenasati dhavato bahih [SB 5.18.12]. There is no good qualification for a nondevotee. He'll simply act on mental speculation, that's all. It has no value.
Pusta Krsna: Sometimes people are amazed that we've given up such sinful activities.
Prabhupada: Yes, they should be amazed, because they are mental speculators.
Dr. Patel: You mean unconditional surrender.
Prabhupada: And here are the surrendered souls. Therefore Krsna says, api cet suduracaro. "Even they have got some bad symptoms," bhajate mam ananya-bhak, "but if he is fully Krsna conscious," sadhur eva sa mantavyah [Bg. 9.30], "he is sadhu." So if we want to make the whole world sadhu, perfect human being, then we have to push on this movement without any hesitation. All people will be sadhu, and then there will be peace and prosperity.
Dr. Patel: You mean bring about the spiritual communism of Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: That is real com... Everything belongs to Krsna. They are stating, "Everything belongs to the state." Why you are limiting? State is limited. Everything belongs to Krsna. Then it is perfect communism.
Pusta Krsna: In the Bible it says, "On earth as it is in heaven," that the life on earth should be also under the domain of God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: But there is no program how to actually do that.
Prabhupada: No, program is there. Krsna is speaking, "Do this program, execute," man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad... Program is there, but rascal will not take it. There is no difficulty.
Dr. Patel: The Christian prayers are also the self-surrender.
Prabhupada: Any prayer. If we become God conscious...
Dr. Patel: "Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom..."
Prabhupada: Then it is all right. And without God consciousness there is no qualification. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-gunah. There cannot be any good qualities. [break]
Dr. Patel: Then His kingdom can come on earth, not otherwise.
Prabhupada: No, no. If one man becomes Krsna conscious, he can deliver many millions. Not expected... You cannot expect all to become, but if one man is there, Krsna conscious, he can deliver. [break] Kascid yatati siddhaye, yatatam api siddhanam kascid... [Bg. 7.3]. So it is not so easy thing, but if there is one Krsna conscious person, he can deliver many millions. [break] ...ti sresthas ...lokas tad anuvartate. There must be one srestha, ideal man, and then everyone will follow. And there is no srestha. That is the difficulty.
Dr. Patel: Srestha is only God. Sri istha means srestha, sir. The sri istha is only...
Prabhupada: Yes, srestha, but one who follows Him, he is also srestha.
Prabhupada: Hm. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimukteh [SB 5.5.2].
Pusta Krsna: "By associating with devotees..."
Prabhupada: Tamo-dvaram yositam sangi-sangam. Tamo-dvaram, the path of darkness, if they associate with yositam sangi-sangam.
Dr. Patel: There is sat-sanga sadacaram niravinam.(?)These three qualities come to men, sir.
Prabhupada: Yes. Sat-sanga means you have to associate with sat, devotees. Satam prasangan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. If you associate with sat-sanga, then you'll gradually relish Krsna consciousness. Otherwise not.
Dr. Patel: Just like Narada Muni.
Prabhupada: Yes, anyone. Anyone. It is open to everyone. So therefore we are trying to open centers, all parts of the world, to give them chance of sat-sanga, so that gradually they will become perfect. And that is happening actually. Caitanya Mahaprabhu never said that you find out some first-class men. No. He said, yare dekha tare kaha krsna. It is not necessary that you have to find out some qualified person. Anyone. Simply instruct him what Krsna has said, that's all. Yare dekha tare kaha. There is no question of selecting. Why selection? All are fallen. The so-called gentleman, he is also fallen.
As soon as you see he is not Krsna conscious, he is within these four groups: duskrtina, mudha, naradhama, mayaya... Immediately conclude.
Dr. Patel: Sir, duskrtina, mudha, naradhama, all are mayayapahrta-jnanah.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Patel: All of them are mayayapahrta-jnanah.
Prabhupada: No, no, mayayapahrta-jnanah.
Dr. Patel: They, all of them, all the three (indistinct) also.
Prabhupada: So he may say that "I have passed B.A., M.A., Ph.D., D.H.C.," and "Whether you are Krsna conscious?" "No, sir." "Then you are a fool, rascal."
Dr. Patel: (laughs) The B.A., M.A., are maya degrees.
Prabhupada: This preaching is done by Syamasundara's little daughter, five years, six years. She goes to a gentleman, "Do you know Krsna?" So he says, "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality of Godhead." Just see. This is preaching. A child can do this preaching work. She has learned from us, and she is convinced that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and she goes to anyone, "Do you know who is Krsna?" He says, "No, I do not know." "The Supreme Personality." This is preaching. Then he is a good preacher. That's all. The rascal does not know Krsna. He gets at least some information, "Here is Krsna." And on this basis our Dr. Svarupa Damodara, Ph.D.... You have read that book? It is first class. The scientist, so-called scientist, unless he is insane, he cannot say that there is no God. He has written so nice, from scientific.
Dr. Patel: But the real scientists are also God conscious.
Prabhupada: That is all right. He is real scientist.
Dr. Patel: You have been unfortunately against them, but think of Albert Einstein. He was totally God conscious throughout his life.
Prabhupada: Yes, he is all right, but mostly they say, "What is the use of God? Now science, everything science." They say like that.
Dr. Patel: You have been very harsh to the scientists.
Prabhupada: They are misleading. These rascals are misleading. That is the way.
Pusta Krsna: He was very God conscious when he made the atomic bomb.
Dr. Patel: How many of us are scientists here? He might help you also.
Prabhupada: We know real scientist because we know the biggest scientist, Krsna. Therefore we are scientists. Without Him we don't claim to be scientists-fools, rascals. Aradhito yadi haris tapasa tatha kim. He is everything. He doesn't require to. Kasmin tu bhagavo vijnate sarvam idam vijnatam bhavati. If you simply understand Krsna, then you become scientist, philosopher. And I was never a scientist, so we challenge the scientists, and I have produced this scientist to challenge them. But I was never a scientist. That book is actually revolutionary amongst the scientists. Scientific Basis, you have read that?
Indian man: Yes, I have read.
Prabhupada: Very nicely he has written, very, very nicely, from all scientific... He has challenged the scientists. He has clearly declared, "Darwin is wrong, and scientists, they do not know."
Dr. Patel: Now the modern scientists from Russia, they say that there is life on other stars, in other planets.
Prabhupada: Not only that, they are interested in reading our books. We have received letter. We are sending representative.
Dr. Patel: That communism is lost now.
Prabhupada: No, communism is lost not. We do not say that you stop anything, but you make the center Krsna. Otherwise it is zero. Zero, if you increase the number of zero, it is always zero. But put Krsna or one by the side of zero, it becomes ten, hundred, thousand, lakhs.
Dr. Patel: Millions.
Prabhupada: So we... Our propaganda is bring Krsna; then your zeros will be valued. Otherwise you are zeros.
Dr. Patel: Sir, they were saying that religion is an opium.
Prabhupada: Yes, opium is very good sometimes. He is right. Tincture opium. Yes. Yes. All the drugs are used. You know very well.
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, sir. In heart attack we give that first.
Prabhupada: Yes. So opium is poison undoubtedly, but if it is in the hand of physician, it is nectarine. It can save the life. Whatever God has created, it has got some use. One must know. Nirbandhah krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam ucyate. That is wanted.
Pusta Krsna: Marx's idea was that instead of trying to improve the condition of life, people would simply go to the church or like this and worship and accept their miserable condition of life without any material progress.
Prabhupada: No, they do not know.
Dr. Patel: It is abstract materialism, sir.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because the very theory of dialectical materialism is against the tenets of religious teachings of sanatana-dharma.
Prabhupada: No, that...
Dr. Patel: The spirit is more important than material.
Prabhupada: No, their teaching is to become some strong atheist, because religion has been exploited by the so-called religious leaders. That is the difficulty. So they have become atheist.
Dr. Patel: Unless they change their very principle on which they are working. That is why I say we must spread the spiritual communism, sir, or Krsna consciousness. That is the only way. The other day I talked about the dialectical materialism. That is the crux of the whole communism.
Prabhupada: The communism will be immediately perfect as soon as it is connected with Krsna.
Dr. Patel: But that is, sir... I mean, our sanatana-dharma is spiritual communism. That is what we actually try to preach them.
Prabhupada: But you have lost it. You have lost it.
Dr. Patel: Yes, we have lost. That is right. And we are gaining it again. The heaven is lost; heaven may be regained. (laughs) What is that, Milton's?
Prabhupada: "Paradise..."
Dr. Patel: "Paradise Lost and Gained."
Prabhupada: If you have lost Krsna, that is paradise lost.
Dr. Patel: Paradise lost, that is. My paradise, everything, is lost.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] And this night I have explained, chanting outside the temple and chanting in the temple, it increases the value thousand times. That I have explained, this evening, this last night.
Pusta Krsna: Chanting in the temple increases the?
Prabhupada: Value.
Pusta Krsna: The value.
Prabhupada: Potency, thousand times. Otherwise, why they are going to the Vrndavana? (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Dr. Patel: Sir, what is the difference between manasi chanting and chanting...
Prabhupada: No, manasi chanting, that is smarana. That is another thing. But chanting means the tongue must work. That is real chanting.
Dr. Patel: But if only tongue works and the mind does not work, it has no value.
Prabhupada: So mind will... You chant loudly, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna"; the mind will come.
Dr. Patel: This mind, buddhi, and the jiva in it, all the three must carry on...
Prabhupada: Yes. Then it is real chanting.
Dr. Patel: ...with the chanting.
Prabhupada: You have to practice. You have to practice. Not all of a sudden these three things can be combined so you can become.... It requires practice. Jaya. Abhyasa-yoga-yuktena cetasa nanya-gamina [Bg. 8.8]. You have to practice. Your mind cannot go outside. Then it will be... You have to become the master of your mind. You cannot be dictated by the mind. Then you are victim. There is a verse that "The mind is friend, and mind is enemy. One who can dictate the mind, his mind is friend. And one who is dictated by the mind, his mind is enemy." So we have to learn how to dictate, control the mind. And that is yoga system. Yoga indriya-samyama.
Dr. Patel: Sir, greatest yoga...
Prabhupada: Greatest yoga is devotee.
Dr. Patel: ...to join your mind with God, with Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. If one's mind is always engaged in Krsna, then he is the greatest, biggest yogi.
yoginam api sarvesam
mad-gatenantaratmana
sraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo matah
[Bg. 6.47]
That is first-class yoga. [break] ...means keep them always engaged in Krsna's activities, mind. That is wanted.
Prabhupada: Yes, if your indriyas are engaged in Krsna's activities, they are no more pramathini; they are controlled. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam, hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When your indriyas are purified, then it will be only engaged in hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam. That is bhakti.
Dr. Patel: Rasa-varjam raso 'py asya param drstva nivartate [Bg. 9.59].
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Unless you have complete, I mean, God consciousness, param drstva, till then, the rasa does not go, the very sting of your indriyas. So it becomes sort of a vicious circle, sir, and it becomes very difficult to vacate from that.
Prabhupada: Yes. Hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate [Cc. Madhya 19.170].
Dr. Patel: By bhakti you can break.
Prabhupada: Bhakti means when you engage all your senses in the service of Hrsikesa. That is bhakti. But that we cannot. We say, "Oh, I have got this duty, I have got that duty," not cent percent engaged.
Dr. Patel: Ananya-bhakti.
Prabhupada: Ananya, that is wanted. When cent percent engaged, that is ananya. Bhajate mam ananya-bhak. If one takes to that position, ananya-bhak, then even there is some mistake, even there is some fault, still, sadhur eva sa mantavyah [Bg. 9.30]—he becomes sadhu, immediately. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...for God, for Krsna, is bhakti.
Prabhupada: Yes, under the superior direction, not whimsically.
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupada: Yes. Whimsical, you cannot do anything.
Dr. Patel: After complete surrender of the buddhi and mind...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...all the actions that are done in the service of God is bhakti...
Prabhupada: Yes. When...
Dr. Patel: Without surrendering...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...the actions are not bhakti.
Prabhupada: That is the example in the Bhagavad-gita. When Arjuna saw that "Krsna wants it positively. Never mind my..."
Dr. Patel: Then the karisye vacanam...
Prabhupada: Yes. That is bhakti. "Never mind, I do not agree with Krsna, but I see that He wants it, I must do." This is bhakti. Krsna should be given preference. That is bhakti, not my whimsical way. That is not bhakti. And because we cannot understand Krsna, therefore Krsna is giving direction.
Go to the person who has seen actually and take information. Simply by reading you will be misleaded. Even persons like Gandhi or Dr. Radhakrishna, Aurobindo, they were misled because they wanted to manufacture their own meaning. They did not like to act as Krsna says.
Passerby: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Hm. You are very good devotee. Jaya. Hare Krsna. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. So if one offers his namaskara, that is also taken into account, asset. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trayate mahato bhayat.
Dr. Patel: Dharmasya means that dharma which is affixed to find(?) God is dharma.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is bhakti. Bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. You can understand Krsna only by bhakti, not by jnana, yoga, karma. So a little bhakti will help you to make further progress. It is... No... Now, what is that? "It is never lost." What is that verse? Nehabhikrama-naso 'sti [Bg. 2.40].
Dr. Patel: Nehabhikrama-naso 'sti.
Prabhupada: Naso 'sti. So if you do little, it will remain ever, permanently. Then you will make increase. You'll increase again.
Indian (1): As soon as you start chanting, bhakti starts, and then further development is the result of chanting?
Prabhupada: Yes. But if we think that "I am chanting. I can do all nonsense," then it is wrong.
Dr. Patel: First of all, sir, it is the "I-ness" which must go. And you must surrender your "I" at the sacred feet of...
Prabhupada: No, no, "I-ness" is there. If I decide, "I shall not do anything which is not for Krsna..."
Dr. Patel: I did not mean that, sir. Your "I-ness" means your ego must be sacrificed at the feet of Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, ego is...
Indian (1): How will it go unless the chanting...
Dr. Patel: Unless you surrender yourself.
Indian (1): Even the chanting will go with that ego.
Prabhupada: Ego, ego is there, but false and right.
Dr. Patel: False ego.
Prabhupada: False ego is that "I am Patel. I am Patel" (laughter) And real ego is "I am Krsna's servant."
Indian (1): Yes.
Prabhupada: This is ego.
Indian (1): Real ego. That is the reason. That is the reason.
Prabhupada: So long I'll think that "I am Patel. I am master of this man..." (Dr. Patel talking simultaneously) (Hindi) People are, I mean to say, entangled with these all upadhis. So therefore bhakti begins when one is upadhi-less. No more upadhi. Gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasa-dasanudasah [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. That is real ego.
Dr. Patel: That is complete submersion of your ego. Dasa-dasa-dasanudasa. I mean, after sarira...
Prabhupada: [break] ...manasa deha geha, yo kichu mora, arpilun tuwa pade, nanda-kisora. Nanda-kisora... (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: You hand over the steer of your...
Prabhupada: Yes. The next line is marobi rakhobi, yo iccha tohara. (Hindi) This is surrender.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, that reminds me of a story that I read that one man, one English lord, had gone on a pigeon shooting. I told once this story. And he had got lot of pigeons in a gunny bag, and he would allow one pigeon to go and shoot. One pigeon, instead of flying, fell down at his feet. He could not shoot it. Like that. And this reminds me, this story, always reminds me, this complete surrender. He could not shoot that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: So God will not mara na(?). He will never maro, cannot maro, because you are at His very feet.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. He is supplying everything without any surrendering. (Hindi) But that care and outside-the-jail care, there is little difference. In the prison house, even one is very highly qualified, and if he applies for some good post, he will not be given. He'll not be given. But outside the prison? "Yes, you are qualified. Come on." The same government, the same man, but so long one is criminal, there is no consideration. [break] Yes, regularly I get at one o'clock.
Pusta Krsna: One night Prabhupada rang the buzzer; it was twelve-thirty.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Pusta Krsna: Prabhupada was translating.
Prabhupada: Yes, sometimes earlier.
Dr. Patel: I get up at three-thirty. It is not possible to get up at one o'clock. You must not be sleeping...
Prabhupada: Not more than three hours. I go to sleep at ten and I get up at one.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) You get less sleep when... (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Yes, that is, ultimate success is, nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau **, when you can conquer over nidra, sleeping, ahara, eating, because animal life means ahara nidra bhaya maithuna. And spiritual life means you have to conquer over this. That is spiritual life. (Hindi) In spiritual life...
Dr. Patel: You'll have me drinking tea.
Prabhupada: No, everyone, not you.
Dr. Patel: I don't.
Prabhupada: Spiritual life means... (Hindi) And Dhruva Maharaja starved six months, a boy of five years old. It is possible. He did not eat. Simply tapasya. Hare Krsna. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: That jnani, his wife worshiping...
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] Job hai visa.
Dr. Patel: No, he had no job. He then searched out a job. In those days, there was no job visas there anywhere.
Prabhupada: No, during Partition [break] ...policy to attract these, all the intelligent class of Indian, to India..., er...
Devotee (2): England.
Prabhupada: There is job visa. They gave indiscriminately job visa, so that India will be vacant of all intelligent persons and they cannot make... That was the policy.
Dr. Patel: United States are giving also what we call job visa.
Prabhupada: No, not only. Everywhere I have seen. One who is qualified, he gets very easily job in Europe or America, high salary. They get cheaper. Yes. What the Americans will accept for two thousand dollars, Indians will accept at seven hundred dollars.
Pusta Krsna: When Indians were asked to leave Uganda, the Canadian government offered free passage, but only to persons who had the material qualifications they wanted.
Prabhupada: Yes. Qualified man is very much welcome in foreign countries. I have seen. In Canada, in America, in England, in Germany, everywhere. Because they have got so many jobs, they require so many qualified men. And here where is so many jobs?
Dr. Patel: There are so many qualified men, but no jobs.
Prabhupada: No jobs.
Dr. Patel: [break] You have to employ yourself, sir, here.
Prabhupada: So many Ph.D.'s, they are loitering. Therefore they become Communists and this, what is called? Naxalites. Educated young boys, they have no job.
Dr. Patel: These two parts of India... (Hindi) Bengal and Kerala, they're highly educated communities. They are the, I mean, advanced Communists also, both the countries. In Gujarat there is no communism, though we are educated. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Just like assassin is aside.
Prabhupada: Yes. And otherwise you will find Caitanya and other, so many big, big men. Rabindranath Tagore, Surendranath Bannerjee, Vivekananda, and so on, so on. (Hindi) Aurobindo was condemned to death.
Dr. Patel: His brother.
Prabhupada: No, no, he.
Dr. Patel: No, sir, I think...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. He was condemned to death, then C.R. Das saved him. Then he decided, "This politic has no value. Let me go to Krsna consciousness." He dreamed at night, "Why you are bothering with these things?" This is the history. So just after getting off, the judge, immediately left.
Dr. Patel: He came back Candranagar(?), to his place. (Hindi) He never came. After svarajya he never came.
Prabhupada: But that is all nonsense. That is...
Dr. Patel: [break] ...find fulfillment there only, God consciousness.
Prabhupada: Bhaktih paresanubhavo viraktir anyatra syat [SB 11.2.42]. This is the sign of bhakti, that he has no more taste in anything material. That is bhakti. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: And artha.
Prabhupada: Dharma cannot be. Therefore Bhagavata said, dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. Dharmartha-kama-moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90]—these are all cheating. These are all cheating. Yes. Dharma means you become... Generally people go to temple to get some material gains: "O God, give us our daily bread." That is the idea. Dharma is to get some material profit. And why material profit? For sense gratification. Dharma, artha, kama. And when he's baffled in sense gratification, he wants to become one with God, moksa. These are all cheating. Therefore Bhagavata says, dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. And Sridhara Swami says, atra moksa-vancham api nirastam. So long one is stuck up even up to moksa-vancha, he'll be.... He is in trouble. Therefore Krsna, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Beginning from dharma, artha, kama, moksa [SB 4.8.41, Cc. Adi 1.90], you give up everything. Then you'll become purified. Even if you have got moksa-vancha, then you are in the material world. Yes.
Indian (3): Then we get para bhakti.
Prabhupada: No. Therefore Bhagavad-gita says,
When one is actually in liberated position, moksa, brahma-bhutah, from that platform bhakti begins.
Dr. Patel: Samah sarvesu bhutesu mad-bhaktim labhate param. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. He has realized presence of Krsna everywhere.
Prabhupada: No, samah sarvesu bhutesu means he knows that everyone is spirit soul, part and parcel of Krsna, and this body is simply external tabernacle. That is samah sarvesu.
Dr. Patel: Not visualizing the presence of God everywhere?
Prabhupada: Presence of God is there. When God's part and parcel... (Hindi) This is vision. (Hindi) ...ninety million miles away... (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Sir, this one question is asked by many people, that "How God can have amsas? He is perfect. He cannot be divided into multiple parts."
Prabhupada: He is not divided.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say.
Prabhupada: No, that is foolishness.
Dr. Patel: That is what I mean to say.
Prabhupada: No. Just like... It is said, but they are foolish. They cannot understand sastra. Purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate [Iso Invocation]. That the rascals, they do not understand. They think materially. Just like this flower. If I take little, little, little, then there is no flower. They are thinking like that. But here is the warning. Purnasya purnam... Even the whole flower is taken, still whole.
Dr. Patel: That is God.
Prabhupada: That is God. They are materially thinking, "If God has bifurcated Himself in so many, everywhere, all-pervading, then where is God?" This is foolishness. That Krsna says, that
"Still I am separate." This is wanted. The example is there. Suppose a sunshine is there and throughout the whole universe, and if you say, "Now sun is finished," is sun finished? This is all foolishness. The sun is there; sun-god is there. Still, the sunshine is spread all over the universe.
Dr. Patel: Purnasya purnam adaya...
Prabhupada: Purnam adaya purnam... [Iso Invocation]
Dr. Patel: ...evavasisyate.
Prabhupada: He is distributing. This is material thing. He is distributing full light and full temperature for millions and millions of years, he is still the same. If it is possible for a material thing which is creation of God, how much it is possible for the Supreme? Therefore it is said...
Dr. Patel: Because God is present everywhere by His avyakta-murti and He is present in Goloka...
Prabhupada: Vrndavana.
Dr. Patel: In His original.
Prabhupada: Yes. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilatma-bhutah [Bs. 5.37]. This is God. Not that... (Hindi) That is not God. God is in His apartment, at the same time everywhere. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. That is God. (Hindi) Without knowing God, they are becoming God.
Dr. Patel: God has made them mudhas by His maya, sir.
Prabhupada: No, no. They have become. They don't want to... Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante [Bg. 7.15]. (Hindi) That is in insisting. (Hindi) Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati. Dharmasya glanih [Bg. 4.7]. means when the people become mudha.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. But He comes to give him intelligence, but he will not take it. He wants that "I shall remain a mudha." "All right, you remain."
Dr. Patel: Sir, God incarnates for many purposes, not only...
Prabhupada: This is the total... Total purpose is paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: I am going to ask you a bad question...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...that if God wanted to destroy the rascals and mudhas, He could have done by His finger.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Why does He come here? He comes here... (Hindi) Am I right?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: It is not only for killing the...
Prabhupada: Otherwise how He can give contact? Contact.
Dr. Patel: He could have done it from there only.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) Actually to give him favor.
Dr. Patel: To favor the bhaktas, sir.
Prabhupada: Not only bhaktas, even abhaktas—by killing them. Yes.
Dr. Patel: (laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes, that is also favor. (Hindi) ...immediately. Mukti immediately. All the soldiers and kings who saw Krsna in the battlefield, they were all muktas immediately. Yes. Because at the time of death they were seeing Krsna, so they become all delivered.
Dr. Patel: They got greater benefit than the living people behind. The Pandavas, they said, that "Those people actually was... They were in presence of Krsna. They saw their life by..."
Prabhupada: Svarupa.
Dr. Patel: Svarupa.
Prabhupada: Svarupena vyavasthitih [SB 2.10.6]. That is mukti. When one is situated in his own original, constitutional position, that is called mukti. Svarupena mukti. Muktir hitvanyatha rupam svarupena vyavasthitih. This is mukti. (end)

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