April 16, 1976, Bombay
Prabhupada: Prahlada Maharaja has criticized mauna-vrata, like that. They have got so.... [break] ...scientists were not perfect in the past, they are not perfect now, and they will continue to remain imperfect. He has written clearly.
Dr. Patel: So this, our science, is a science of maya. Not the science of spirit. Am I right?
Dr. Patel: The science deals with all the earthly things.
Prabhupada: Even an earthly thing, that does not mean you shall commit mistake. Two plus two equal to four, that is earthly thing. But if you make two plus two equal to five...
Dr. Patel: One.
Prabhupada: That is not...
Dr. Patel: If you make two plus two is equal to one, then that is spiritual. (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, no. Apart from spiritual, they are talking and again changing. Sometimes they say two plus two equal to four, sometimes they say two plus two equal to five, and then next they say two plus two equal to three. This is going on. So where is you truth? [break] ...the mudhas.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no, you are not.
Dr. Patel: Don't say that. We are mudha.
Prabhupada: No, but because we simply talk of Krsna, therefore, although mudha, we are not mudha. Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. That's all.
Dr. Patel: That's right. I am talking to my scientist friends, sir. That is which medium they move.
Prabhupada: The protons, electrons, and they have not come to any conclusion. They are still dividing. NDA? They have found some NDA?
Dr. Patel: Elementary particles.
Prabhupada: No, NDA?
Dr. Patel: DNA, that is biochemistry. DNA. (laughs) (Hindi?) This DNA and RNA, these are the special nucleic acids. They actually have the power to procreate new cells. These our Indian..., that, those scientists have.... (laughter) Because I am.... In fact, that company.... I got that bad company just now, this.... So I say "Indian." Very good joke. RNA and DNA are nothing, but we don't know how they work even now. A lot of research is going on.
Prabhupada: Our study should be that these things we cannot explain, but these things are there, so there is a great scientist. That's it. That much understanding is good. You go on analyzing one after another, so you do not come to the final conclusion. But you see actually it is existing, so it has been done by a great scientist. That is wanted.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: I said Aryans, not Indians.
Prabhupada: Anyone. We don't say Aryan or Indian, but there is a great scientist who has arranged like that.
Dr. Patel: The greatest scientist is Krsna, God. You call Him by any other name but He is personally present, as He says.
Pusta Krsna: Even the modern scientists do not learn everything by laboratory. They take knowledge from their predecessor.
Dr. Patel: But intuition does come. The topmost scientists.... The intuition, then they work on that way.
Dr. Patel: What is ignorance and what is knowledge is very difficult to say. It is a relative terminology.
Dr. Patel: That's right so far as the spiritual knowledge is concerned, but in the relative knowledge, after all...
Prabhupada: Relative knowledge is also...
Prabhupada: No? Why not?
Dr. Patel: Because every time we change our opinion...
Prabhupada: We know from Krsna.
Prabhupada: No, no.
Krsna says, so you have to know it like that. That is Krsna's energy...
Dr. Patel: And how it is that prakrti is, I mean, interaction, interaction of...
Prabhupada: He says, prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah [Bg. 3.27]. That is stated, and also said, mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. So therefore that is final.
Dr. Patel: That is why I say, sir, that Albert Einstein used to see mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram. He used to see mayadhyaksena, God everywhere. In every atom he used to see God.
Prabhupada: That is right conclusion.
Dr. Patel: That is Albert Einstein, and that was the grandfather of the modern scientists. So I say the scientists are not as atheist as people think.
Abhirama(?): When Albert Einstein suggested that there must be a supreme universe, then the other scientists began to say that he was crazy. They said, "He has become too old."
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, yes.
Abhirama: Actually they did not believe his theory.
Dr. Patel: You are right. I mean, all intelligent men in past used to...
Prabhupada: No, he thinks not yet fit to make pariprasna.
Dr. Patel: I do it
Prabhupada: That is. That is scientist. He thinks himself not fit to make any question. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena [Bg. 4.34]. When the pranipata is sufficiently mature, then he can make pariprasna-accompanied by seva. Otherwise pariprasna is a waste of time. According to our Vedic system, we should not make any question to any person whose answer I cannot accept toto. Then I shall. Otherwise no use of wasting time. Pranipata means that you are accepting that "Here I have come. His answer will be complete." No further question. But if there is little doubt, he can submissively make question. Just like Arjuna made question to Krsna that "You say millions of years ago You spoke this science to..."
Dr. Patel: Vivasvan.
Prabhupada: Yes. "But You are of my age. How I can accept this?" And immediately answer was that "Both of us were present. You have forgotten. I have not forgotten." Bas. Accept it. He did not challenge, "How is that? I have forgotten? You did not forget?" And that is nonsense. That is nonsense.
Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as he questions like that, "How is that You have not forgotten? I have forgotten?" it is not good. Then he is not fit for making question. He should not have made question. [break] ...saw the gosvami?
Dr. Patel: Have you got them here?
Prabhupada: I think we have got, eh?
Dr. Patel: The Six Gosvamis. I just look at him. American scientists don't come to my rescue. [break] (laughs) (Hindi) Our atma.... (Hindi) Kunape tri-dhatuke. We are not God conscious, any one of us. Practically hardly for us, small way, perhaps. So we are go-khara, then, in right sense.
Dr. Patel: He's not go-khara.
Prabhupada: He's no more go-khara.
Dr. Patel: Really? (laughter)
Prabhupada: Because go-kharas, they cannot understand their mistake. And as soon as one admits that he's mistaken, then he's human being.
Dr. Patel: But this atma-dhi in this kunape tri-dhatuke is very difficult to knock off and establish it in...
Prabhupada: No, if you analyze, you can take it.
Dr. Patel: That is done by Sankhya philosophy.
Dr. Patel: You have to analyze, sir, with Sankhya philosophy, by jnana-marga, that you are not this body.
Prabhupada: Anyway, you analyze. Just like you take breathing. Breathing is taken as the life, breathing. When the breathing is stopped, then there is no life. So analyze this breathing. What is this breathing? It is air. So when breathing is stopped, then you can take air. There are so many persons here. And by some machine you can put within the heart or somewhere. Let the air go on passing. But that is not possible. Therefore immediately the air is rejected. Then take the bone, the muscle. Everything will be rejected. There is no life. So this is analytical study. And then what remains? That soul. Very common thing.
Dr. Patel: Kim parisisyate... (Sanskrit)
Prabhupada: Neti neti. "This not soul, this is not soul, this is not soul." Then still, there is the living force. Avinasi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam tatam. Immediately come to the conclusion. But they have analytical laboratory, but they have no brain how to analyze. They are thinking that because the blood has become white, therefore life has been lost. So is it very difficult to make the secretion within the body red?
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupada: You can make it red.
Dr. Patel: Now, sir, they think the body does not extinct with the stoppage of the heart, but it gets extinct after complete disorganization of the brain or what we call...
Dr. Patel: Both, they come to mudha. Now rascal become...
Prabhupada: Means when he becomes double mudha he becomes rascal. (laughter) Single mudha is tolerable, and double mudha means mudha. Double M.A. Double M.A. means double rascal.
Dr. Patel: Up to this, sir, heart transplant, I mean, surgery...
Prabhupada: (Hindi) All mudhas. (Hindi) Apareyam. Immediately Krsna says, but this rascal will not accept. He immediately says, "This you are analyzing, but these things, these material things—apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim para [Bg. 7.5]. There is another thing." But that they will not accept. Therefore mudha. Krsna says very clearly, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim para. What is that? Jiva-bhuta. That living entity. So clearly said, but they are so mudha, they will not accept.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Now it is all right? All right.
Prabhupada: [break] And Krsna is saying, and they still will not believe. Therefore rascal. It is clearly said. After analyzing all this material of the kunape tri-dhatuke... This body is a bag of this transformation of kapha pitta vayu, tri-dhatuke. So this is not life. That is different. Krsna says, apareyam itas tu viddhi me. But these rascals will not believe it. Therefore rascals. Very minutely analyze with this material in the body. What is there? The air is there, the blood is there, the muscle is there, the veins are there, the bone is there, the stool is there, the urine is there—a combination of all these, is that life?
Dr. Patel: No, it is kunape tri-dhatuke, kunape.
Prabhupada: Yes. And Krsna says, dehino 'smin. In this hodgepodge combination of matter there is the soul. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam... [Bg. 2.13]. On account of this, this body is changing. Kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha dehantara praptih. Very simple thing, but they're so rascal, they will not understand. The whole world is like that. [break] He is speaking Himself. Let us accept it. Every knowledge is there. I am not scientist, but all the scientists come. Our Svarupa Damodara, Doctor, Ph.D., he was defeated three times, four times daily, and then he is now writing book, Scientific Basis of Krsna Consciousness. You see? And I was not a scientist. He was Ph.D., but I talked on the basis of Krsna's assets. That's all. That is my knowledge. [break] ...this knowledge, very practical knowledge, and if we don't accept it, then what is? It is simply rascaldom. No, yes. Yes.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) No, but you see, they...
Prabhupada: It is not for you. Krsna says that "This is material; this is spiritual. This is superior; this is inferior." He is analyzing. There is no question of.... We have forgotten, therefore He is reminding, but still, we'll not take. That is rascaldom.
Dr. Patel: No, but still, we know that.... I mean, we know that this body is not we. We are jivas. Still, every moment we know; still, we forget to act accordingly. That is what I mean to say, sir. We don't act accordingly.
Prabhupada: No, no. That means the knowledge is not perfect. Yes.
Prabhupada: Everything is explained so nicely in the Bhagavad-gita. If you take simply, then you become man of knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Nijam atmanam brahmana-rupam (?)(Sanskrit) But still, even at that time also, we think of what. That is a misfortune.
Dr. Patel: People. I also.
Prabhupada: No, no. A devotee never thinks "I am body." "The body is mine, or body is given to me. So this body is given by Krsna. Let this body be engaged in Krsna's service." Then it is all right. Both the prakrtis, para-prakrti and apara, is Krsna's. So even if you say that spiritually you can serve, but this is also Krsna's prakrti. You cannot reject the body and simply take the soul. That is not possible. It is now combination. So the body, karmana manasa vaca. So we are not rejecting this body. Why? This is also Krsna's. How can I reject it? Krsna's things must be engaged in Krsna's service. This is real philosophy. You cannot say, "This is not Krsna's." What is not Krsna's? Everything is Krsna's.
Indian: These Mayavadis reject it, that the body is not...
Prabhupada: Yes. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah, mumuksubhih parityago. The Mayavadi says the whole material world is false. We do not say that.
Prabhupada: We do not say. We say this material world also the energy of Krsna. Krsna says, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca, bhinna me prakrtir astadha [Bg. 7.4]. He claims, "It is Mine," so how you can reject it? We cannot say anything Krsna's is false. There is some purpose. I give this example, this finger: here is sensation, and here is no sensation. But both of them belongs to my body. Matter means where there is no Krsna sensation. That is matter. And as soon as there is Krsna sensation, it is spirit. Our Gosvamis' formula is that. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi-vastunah. Everything has got relation with Krsna. So.... Eh?
Prabhupada: Yes. Prapancikataya buddhya hari-sambandhi..., mumuksubhih parityago. Mumuksubhih, this moksa-vancha, they said, "It is false." So mumuksu.... parityago phalgu vairagyam kathyate. It is not real vairagya. He does not know what is vairagya.
Dr. Patel: Vaisnavas.... Veda gives to take care all your mind, sensation, body, from that...
Prabhupada: Everything Krsna's. That...
Dr. Patel: Krsna's. That is right.
Prabhupada: Manasa deha geha yo kichu mora, arpilun tuwa pade. All as soon as it is surrendered to Krsna, it is all spiritual.
Mahamsa: Sanatana Gosvami, at first he wanted to commit suicide. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, "This body is not yours."
Prabhupada: Yes. "How you can make suicide? You have already dedicated your body to Me. You have no right." This was the Caitanya Mahaprabhu's.... You cannot neglect it. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's version. When one comes to this understanding, that "Everything belongs to Krsna, everything has emanated from Krsna," aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8], "and everything can be used for Krsna," then real understanding-sarvam khalv idam brahma. That is wanted. [break] ...1:15. Fifteen minutes late.
Dr. Patel: Brahma-muhurta... (Hindi) I take my bath at three o'clock, so it is all right for me. I'm never falling in all these ways. [break]
Prabhupada: ...give you this foolishness that in other countries they have taken to industry and they are also fully engaged in agriculture. Here the men are taken from the village for industrial work, and the agricultural work suffers.
Dr. Patel: Not so in industry. People are idle. It is just like a man having one son, another man having six sons. If the man with six sons works very hard, he is more, I mean, rich than that fellow. But those six boys don't work? Then he goes to hell.
Prabhupada: No, he works. He sees that "In the village I shall get one rupee per day, and if I go to the town I shall get twenty rupees."
Dr. Patel: Not that, sir, even that, there is no jobs.
Prabhupada: But he thinks there is job. He leaves.
Dr. Patel: Yes, they come here in search of job.
Prabhupada: Yes. They suffer. They live in the huts and very nasty place, still expecting.
Dr. Patel: But the highly advanced countries like the States, United States, the agricultural.... I mean, this industry is completely contracted. A percentage the population is getting less and less in agriculture than before. Now hardly ten percent, people are...
Prabhupada: Krsna advises...
Dr. Patel: Yes, because agriculture, however...
Dr. Patel: Even though they have got a lot of machinery and all these things, but still, everything's all.... As, for example, chemical industry. Forty-paisa worth for ten rupees.
Devotees: Jaya! (end)