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April 17, 1976, Bombay
Prabhupada: ...is real scientist. Those who change every year theory, I don't like that scientist. Do you like that scientist?
Dr. Patel: No.
Prabhupada: Then who? Nobody, no gentleman likes that.
Dr. Patel: He's not a scientist, who changes himself.
Prabhupada: Yes. You cannot change your position. That is science. Krsna has said that mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. So nobody has become greater than Krsna up till now. That is science. Can anyone challenge Krsna? No. And He has said, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. So that is scientist.
Dr. Patel: No, but the scientists try to unearth the secrets of Krsna.
Dr. Patel: Scientists, the modern science, is trying to unearth the secrets of Krsna only.
Prabhupada: Trying to?
Prabhupada: Krsna's maya.
Dr. Patel: Maya, we are trying to unearth the secret of Krsna's maya. Those two scientists must come forward, eh? Now he is going to throw a bombshell.
Dr. Patel: The difference of each comes in practically two, three Upanisads, the one which you have also commented. There is. That happens, the Mundakopanisad, the beginning. (Sanskrit) So we are the scientists of the apara-vidya; you are the scientist of the para-vidya. So we must not have any quarrel. We have divided our sphere of activity.
Prabhupada: No, there is no quarrel, but we say that these are for the rascals. Yes. Apara-vidya is for the rascals.
Dr. Patel: No, no, even the greatest of the saints, namely, the guru of.... I mean, Suka(?) Maharaja, also he had the first apara-vidya. Then para-vidya.... Apara-vidya is the first step.
Dr. Patel: No, but we always have to put up our step on the apara-vidya. Then you put up your step on the para-vidya. You can't jump over it.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. No. There is no question of jumping, but things should be realized as it is. Apara... This is apara. This is para. So this is inferior; this is superior. That you have to admit.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. And it is explained about apara-vidya, antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam [Bg. 7.23]. Therefore rascal, alpa-medhasa. Alpa means no brain, no brain.
Prabhupada: This apara-vidya.... Para-vidya means Krsna. Para-vidya means Krsna. So one who.... Unless one comes to the point of Krsna, he is in the apara-vidya. And apara-vidya is meant for the less intelligent class of men. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam.
Dr. Patel: Then the whole question was, sir, here in Upanisad that...
Dr. Patel: But when, when Muni went...
Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. He said that "What you have learned? Let me know what you have learned. Then I will teach you further on."
Dr. Patel: And they said that...
Prabhupada: To know what is your position, whether still you are foolish or you have become intelligent. That is...
Dr. Patel: If he had not become intelligent, he would not have gone there.
Prabhupada: That has to be.... Then...
Dr. Patel: That means he had become intelligent.
Prabhupada: That is all right. That is all right. He has gone to the.... That is pious. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtinah. Anyone who goes to Krsna or guru for asking, he is pious. He is not miscreant. Duskrtina. He is not duskrtina. He is pious. Maybe he is in the lower position, but he is pious. That is described. And one who does not go either to Krsna or His representative, he is duskrtina, naradhama. This is the difference. One man is suffering from some disease. If he has gone to the physician, he is intelligent. And one who says, "Ha, what is this? I don't care for that," he's a rascal. That's all.
Dr. Patel: He must come to me. (laughs)
Prabhupada: Yes. Anyone who accepts that "I must be treated," he is intelligent.
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir, but para-vidya is meant for the body, apara-vidya, I mean to say. Para-vidya is meant for the soul.
Dr. Patel: So soul and body has got to live together. So there is a necessity of apara-vidya also to keep your body going.
Prabhupada: No, no. No. That is to make the best use of a bad bargain, how to use the body best to perfect para-vidya. That is intelligence. Just like you have a car. A car is not neglected. We don't kick out car. But it must be used for spreading Krsna consciousness.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say, sir, that you must have the knowledge of car, and that knowledge of car is apara-vidya.
Prabhupada: No. No. No. There is no need of. You have the car, you can go from this place to that place very quickly, so utilize it for Krsna conscious.
Dr. Patel: They must know how to drive it. That is knowledge. Why do you say no?
Prabhupada: That automatically comes.
Dr. Patel: How can automatically? Nothing can come automatically.
Prabhupada: You'll see many drivers. They do not know about mechanics, but very first class driver.
Dr. Patel: Well, learning driving is a knowledge of driving.
Prabhupada: Yes, driving, that is...
Dr. Patel: Svarupa(?), why don't you say something?
Prabhupada: Yes. Many.... Many first-class owner.... You know. You are a physician. You are not a motor mechanics, but you know how to drive. That is not very difficult thing.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. So everything should be for Vasudeva. And he is first-class wise man who knows vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma... [Bg. 7.19].
Dr. Patel: Sudurlabhah.
Prabhupada: Yes. But such kind of intelligent person is very rare.
Dr. Patel: Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19], sir, you get actually when you become the real Vaisnava, because then you see the presence of God in every inanimate and animate object.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is...
Dr. Patel: That is real Vaisnava. Otherwise you are not.
Prabhupada: That is a fact. Without Vasudeva, without Krsna's order.... Mayadhyaksena [Bg. 9.10]. Everything is being done under His superintendence. Mayadhyaksena. Even in the prakrti, apara and para... There are two prakrtis. So even in apara-prakrti there is superintendence of Krsna.
Dr. Patel: Now then, mayadhyaksena, we want to learn how He adhyaksa, and that is our vidya, and that is our apara-vidya.
Dr. Patel: That is real scientist.
Dr. Patel: We are trying to learn it.
Prabhupada: No, but you defy Krsna.
Dr. Patel: Do you defy by trying to learn His mayadhyaksena suyate prakrtih sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]?
Prabhupada: No, now scientists say that "Now we are advanced. We don't require God." There is a book. Yes. "We don't require God. Now we shall adjust. We shall create.... We shall create human being according to our necessity."
Dr. Patel: You are also scientist. You are on one side.
Prabhupada: You know that?
Dr. Patel: Yes, yes, sir.
Prabhupada: They say that "We shall create human being according to our necessity."
Dr. Patel: It is not possible to.... Can they create a leaf? Then let them create a human.
Prabhupada: But that.... Therefore we say rascals.
Dr. Patel: But then you don't take it, all of us, together. We are four or five of us here. We are next to you. We are none of those.
Prabhupada: Then the same theory that "This side of stool is dry. It is good." (laughter) Yes.
Dr. Patel: Because it going to be manure, manure the food.
Prabhupada: "And the other side is moist; therefore it is bad."
Dr. Patel: Yes, sir. That type of stool which goes and manures the crop, that is good, evidently.
Prabhupada: No, no, after all, stool, this side or that side.... The whole conclusion is that unless one is surrendered to Krsna, he remains in darkness.
Dr. Patel: That's right.
Prabhupada: That is the point. Therefore we are trying to enlighten people to Krsna consciousness.
Dr. Patel: And a scientist trying to unearth the secret of nature means Krsna. He is doing work for Krsna, and he cannot be...
Prabhupada: No, no, everyone has to work for Krsna. Just like a prisoner in the prison house. He is also working for government, but he is forced to do it. Then nobody can escape Krsna. That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: Right, sir. But the scientist is not forced to do it. He freely does it.
Prabhupada: No, anyone. Why scientist? Even cats and dogs, they are also doing for Krsna. You cannot.... Nobody can say...
Dr. Patel: But scientist willingly does it to unearth the secret. Don't call him a rascal. The scientist does it.
Prabhupada: No, I don't say. Krsna says.
Dr. Patel: Krsna says those people are rascal who does not believe in Him.
Prabhupada: So anyway, that is the test. If you don't believe in Krsna, you are rascal. That's all. We are simple child, and Krsna has said that anyone who does not surrendered, he's a rascal. So we say, "Are you surrendered to Krsna?" "No." "You are a rascal." (laughter) No. Our test is very simple.
Dr. Patel: And what do you mean by surrendering, sir?
Prabhupada: He does not know anything but Krsna. He knows everything...
Dr. Patel: Surrendering means by mental process if I do through my mind. This is my definition. My mental process in the...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: Everything happening is.... By Krsna's grace he's surrendering to...
Prabhupada: Not mental. No mental concoction. Factual. Factual.
Dr. Patel: That is factual. That everything is...
Prabhupada: No, mental concoction is not factual.
Dr. Patel: Sir, but I am.... You don't let me speak. I say that everything which is happening, a phenomena, is nothing but by the grace of God or by Krsna's own order, and if that...
Prabhupada: And you have no responsibility.
Dr. Patel: And that mental process, if you are working, is it a wrong mental process?
Prabhupada: So here is a greatest wrong. No, no. If your patient comes, that "It is by Krsna's wish I have become diseased," then where is your department? You don't...
Dr. Patel: But by Krsna's grace I have become a doctor. Both the ways. Why see on one side?
Prabhupada: Then say that. Why do you say one side?
Dr. Patel: Of course, everything is by Krsna. The man is diseased by Krsna, I am produced by Krsna, I'll care by Krsna this, that man, and that man dies, he will die by Krsna's grace.
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Dr. Patel: Then that is Krsna's grace.
Prabhupada: Then that is all right.
Dr. Patel: That is what I have been saying.
Dr. Patel: I think I am not wrong. (laughter)
Prabhupada: No, when in everything you see Krsna, that is the highest stage. That is the highest stage.
When one sees, he sees this beach, but he does not see beach, he sees Krsna. That is the highest stage.
Dr. Patel: I was meaning that, but unfortunately my expression was very poor.
Prabhupada: Yes, that may be.
Dr. Patel: I am not student of literature like you.
Prabhupada: Nothing can exist.... maya tatam idam sarvam. So everything is Krsna. Krsna says, maya tatam idam sarvam. Where is not Krsna? But the Mayavadi says, "Everything is Krsna; therefore let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. "What is the use of going to the temple? Let me worship the sand." That is rascaldom. Krsna says clearly, therefore,
maya tatam idam sarvam
na caham tesv avasthitah
Dr. Patel: So I look a fool and they'll become wise, all of them, eh?
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. You are wise.
Dr. Patel: They want that I should say something, and then you call me a rascal, and they take pleasure in it.
Dr. Patel: No, no, no. I say all right...
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] ...possible if you remain with the devotees. (Hindi) ...nondevotees' association. Satam prasangan mama virya-samvido, bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. Satam prasangat. Amongst devotees if you remain, then Krsna-katha will be so pleasing, rasayanah katha, rasayana. Therefore Narottama dasa Thakura said,
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.
Dr. Patel: So I am.... In the morning I do your sat-sanga, and afterwards I do the sat-sanga of Bhagavata and Bhagavad-gita. So it is a continuous sat-sanga. So don't say I am not doing it. (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, no, you are not.... I don't say that you are rascal.
Prabhupada: Rather, I think myself rascal because.... (laughter)
Prabhupada: I could not draw you in my temple.
Dr. Patel: You have drawn me lot, but still, you are dragging me by leg nowadays.
Dr. Patel: I think I am not fit to be with you, so far I consider myself.
Prabhupada: Everyone is.
Dr. Patel: I must correct myself and all my defects. Otherwise I would pollute you. [break] (laughter) I will become after sixty-five.
Prabhupada: You are fifteen years late already. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: I must follow you. How much late you were? I will come after you. [break] ...you think sir, that is more important than...
Prabhupada: No, no.
Dr. Patel: You must have the clothing in the internal side.
Prabhupada: No, clothing is.... Anasritah karma-phalam karyam karma karoti yah ...sa sannyasi [Bg. 6.1]. It is not the clothing. Clothing is not.... Sa ...yogi ca na niragnir na cakriyah. (Hindi) And continually doing that maha-papa. [break] ...naradhama.
Dr. Patel: Because they are mayayapahrta-jnana.
Prabhupada: Yes. It means they have no knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Maya has taken away their vision, their sense of understanding, sense of.... What do you call, sense of understanding or sense of...?
Prabhupada: Sense of reality.
Dr. Patel: Reality. I was trying to say that word, reality. Asuram bhavam asritah [Bg. 7.15]. But today the whole world is practically asura.
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...is a word declared to the asuras. You see? Therefore everyone is our enemy. Nobody likes us, because a declaration of war against the asura... And we are fighting with some tiny soldiers, that's all. And they are very strong. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Thank you. Jaya. [break] ...we don't want who says that "Why you are searching after God? The gods are loitering in the street." Of course, it is in higher sense, but you cannot say respectively(?), "Everyone is God." Maybe.... (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: Now we must not.... (Hindi)
Prabhupada: That very word suggests that he is not to that stage where he can see Narayana everywhere.
Dr. Patel: That is the highest statement of a Vaisnava.
Prabhupada: [break] ...therefore there is character. Just like there are some terpinoids(?) or some, so many. If little change is there, immediately the color changes, the flavor change. And who adjusted?
Dr. Patel: There they find Krsna, sir.
Dr. Patel: That has been.... I was already telling you, that three colors...
Prabhupada: No, no. They say that "Now we are scientists. We do not require God." Yes.
Dr. Patel: They are putting, I mean.... The putting of a small leaf in a hydrocarbon.... You can't put it from that. To that step we have come in biochemistry or chemistry.
Prabhupada: Therefore they should admit who has adjusted it. Then who has adjusted like this, so that the color, the flavor, everything is maintained standard? That is real scientist.
Dr. Patel: Svabhava hatu pravar.(?)
Dr. Patel: So under His guidance.
Prabhupada: Yes. So matter cannot work. Yasyajnaya... There is a verse in the Brahma-samhita. Srsti-sthiti.... Svabhava is Durga. Srsti-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka chayeva yasya bhuvanani vibharti durga, icchanurupam api yasya ca cestate sa [Bs. 5.44]. By His desire.
Dr. Patel: No, sir, He desired and said, "Let Me be many," and He became many. So by desire the whole cosmos has come into existence. So by desire the colors change.
Prabhupada: Even there.... Coconut trees, there are varieties. One tree is standing like this; one is standing like this. Varieties.
Prabhupada: No, Vaisnava accepts the varieties.
Dr. Patel: He accept the variety but he sees in Him everywhere.
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