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April 14, 1976, Bombay
Dr. Patel: ...sankalpa.
Prabhupada: When I was a child my father gave me one red gun, and then I was not more than eight years. Then, after getting one, I said, "I must have another one." Eh? Then father said, "Why another one? You have got already one." So I said, "No, I have got two hands. I must have two guns." Then my father, "No, you are not.... I am not going..." Then I made so much agitation, he was obliged to give me two guns. (laughter) I was very pet child of my father and very pet son-in-law also. And I am very pet guru also. (laughter) Hare Krsna. Thank you. What is this?
Dr. Patel: This is Hanuman jayanti today.
Giriraja: We're having a bigger festival in our mandira.
Dr. Patel: Good.
Prabhupada: How many stories still remain?
Saurabha: Three. Three on top. The towers.
Prabhupada: How are you?
Visala: Fine, thank you.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom you are coming?
Prabhupada: Where is your wife?
Visala: She is here, Your Divine Grace.
Prabhupada: That's nice. He is very good boy. [break] ...that these people are coming for Indian culture, and government is restricting, "Don't come here. Don't come here." We are so degraded.
Dr. Patel: They are frightened of the American CID's.
Prabhupada: They may frighten. A rascal may be frightened.
Dr. Patel: The Americans are all rascals, they say.
Prabhupada: That is not the cause.
Indian: What is the cause?
Dr. Patel: Then what is the cause? No, what is the cause?
Prabhupada: Government (Hindi) They have admitted in the Parliament.
Indian: They are frightened in the beginning.
Dr. Patel: I think they are very slow to act.
Prabhupada: No, the real is that all rogues are in the government.
Dr. Patel: Yes, that is the right thing. Not only rogues...
Prabhupada: So why don't you, if you are actually serious, why don't you make propaganda in the country that "Please do not give vote to the rogues." Don't mention any party. "If you want to be happy, then don't give vote to the rogues." And who is a rogue? The illicit sex hunters, the intoxicants, and the meat-eaters, and the gamblers. These are rogues.
Dr. Patel: They are all there in Delhi.
Prabhupada: No, no, you don't mention any. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. Hare Krsna. So it is impartial. And actually, if they test that "Whether this man I am voting, he is free from all these sinful activities?" Then, you see, the whole face of the Indian government will change.
Dr. Patel: Sir, I may tell you, the adults.... That change is meant for the educated, cultured, and...
Prabhupada: No, no, you don't name that educated, cultured. You simply say that "You vote for this person."
Dr. Patel: People vote for five-rupee notes. They don't vote anything else.
Prabhupada: Then they will suffer. Then don't, don't complain. Don't complain.
Dr. Patel: I was a political worker myself and a member of the ruling party and a member of the assembly. I know how they collect votes.
Prabhupada: If you.... For five rupees if you sacrifice your sacred right, then how can you expect good government?
Dr. Patel: But they never desired to have these rights. They should be disenfranchised, those who will not understand their responsibility towards their country.
Prabhupada: So at least you can make some propaganda that "Don't give votes to these persons." Don't name any. Then he will be envious. No.
Dr. Patel: You will be in the jail.
Dr. Patel: I don't mind going to the...
Prabhupada: No, if you preach these moral principles, nobody will object. Nobody will object.
Dr. Patel: They are shamming themselves as big moralist. They go to temples and what not and what not and what not. And then they...
Prabhupada: But still in India they will never accept a drunkard as moralist. Still.
Dr. Patel: Sir, all of them are drunkards, who are there.
Prabhupada: You cannot say.
Dr. Patel: Majority, sir.
Prabhupada: Mass of people, they are not drunkard.
Dr. Patel: Not mass, I mean those people who are in Delhi.
Prabhupada: They? They are not majority. Therefore we have to reform.
Dr. Patel: Only God will reform them by giving them.... They should be chastised.
Prabhupada: They are being chastised, but they are so fool, they cannot understand they are being chastised. Just like a dog is being chastised. He cannot have eating, eatables, whole day and night, eating stool. Somebody's stoning, somebody's sticking, and still, he is very jubilant: "Gow, gow, gow, gow, I am very happy." (laughter) This is going on. So this dog's association, dog society, they are suffering in every step; still, they are thinking, "We are making progress." That's all. Dog civilization. Hog civilization. Dog civilization. This is not civilization. Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam ye [SB 5.5.1]. Dog civilization.
Dr. Patel: Sir, this civilization is degrading because of the cinemas and things. The mothers are the really...
Prabhupada: And you do not know. Cinema is not cause. Cause is godlessness.
Dr. Patel: But because the godlessness starts from there.
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Dr. Patel: Who are the ideals of these women? The cinema actresses. Who were the ideals of our mothers? Savitri and Sita.
Prabhupada: There are so many, so many.
Dr. Patel: That is very important. This is very important, sir.
Dr. Patel: I mean, one percent. But many cinemas are there. I have not seen. The people say so.
Prabhupada: You see, when a man is diseased there are many symptoms of ailments. You cannot say.... You are a physician. You know. You cannot say, "This is the cause of the disease." It is.... Real, one disease is there, and there are so many ailments. So you cannot say...
Dr. Patel: :You mean the cause of the cause of the cause is godlessness.
Dr. Patel: Cause of the cause of the cause.
Prabhupada: Yes. These are only outward...
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Yes. There are.... In logic there are two causes: immediate cause and remote cause. So remote cause is taken into consideration.
Prabhupada: Why not construct a big building for gurukula here? The students will be trained up to come here and sporting, having nice bath and chant Hare Krsna and build up their character. And in Bombay you will get many children, because there are so many rich men. They are not so much concerned to make their children technologist. If they get good education and character, they will give. Technologists they can purchase. Birla, they are not going to be technologist. They purchase technologist. I have seen in many respectable Marwari house. They don't send their children to school. They don't send.
Dr. Patel: After matriculation they go to the office.
Prabhupada: No matriculation. They engage good panditas, good teachers, and teach them at home, and, as soon as they are able to read and write and see accounts, immediately engage in the business. They know that "We can purchase technologist. Why shall I waste time for so-called education, Ph.D., D.A.C.?" You have seen that Ph.D. in our Vrndavana? Useless. So many Ph.D.'s are useless. Cannot earn their livelihood. I have seen. So what is the use? Tasyaiva hetoh prayateta. Because one has become.... I have seen one Ph.D. chemist in Allahabad. He could not get any job. Then he was manufacturing soap at home and taking it in cycle and going to the market just like ordinary coolie. These so-called educationists, unless they get a good job, they are useless street dog. Useless. They cannot earn even livelihood. Therefore sastra says, "Don't try for these things, to increase your economic position. This is already destined. You cannot increase or decrease. Whatever you are destined, you must get it. Try to get Krsna consciousness."
tasyaiva hetoh prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatam upary adhah
tal labhyate duhkhavad anyatah sukham
kalena sarvatra gabhira ramhasa
You'll get. As you get miserable condition of life—you don't like it but it comes—similarly, happy condition will also come according to your destiny. Why you are wasting time for this? This is the decision of the sastra. You cannot change your destiny. If you have to be, have to work like a coolie, even after becoming Ph.D. you'll have to work like a coolie. You cannot change it. (aside:) Hare Krsna. (Hindi) Jaya. This is.... Therefore formerly any man was satisfied in any position. They were not trying to develop economic condition, brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. (aside:) Hare Krsna. She is your daughter?
Indian man: Yes.
tasyaiva hetoh prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatam upary adhah
kalena sarvatra gabhira ramhasa
Indian man: Yes.
Prabhupada: Thank you.
Dr. Patel: He is such a man. He has all the characteristics of a sannyasi in the home. He is a multi-millionaire's son. But absolutely untouched by wealth, and very fine man, extremely fine.
Prabhupada: If our gurukula children comes here they can have very good sporting. And this idea I have given you?
Prabhupada: Remain healthy.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Twice a day can come, take bath and enjoy sporting life and then chant Hare Krsna, take good prasadam. That's all. Why they should waste their time in technology to become a coolie?
Giriraja: Actually there was once a case. A newspaper once wrote that Henry Ford was ignorant. So Henry Ford filed a case against the newspaper. So in the hearing, the defense asked so many questions about science and history to Henry Ford. So Henry Ford said to the judge that "In my office I have a panel of buttons, and I can press any button and someone will come running to answer any of these questions. So am I ignorant?" (laughter)
Prabhupada: Just see.
Dr. Patel: When Mr. Ford comes willing, back on...? Is he coming back again?
Prabhupada: No, there are many. There are many. Now, you see, near Delhi there is Modi Nagar. That Mr. Modi was not very educated man, but how he has developed?
Prabhupada: Yes. (Hindi) Mr. Modi near Delhi.
Dr. Patel: Modinagarawala.
Prabhupada: Yes, he is employing fifty thousand people, without any education.
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: His wife received us very nicely.
Dr. Patel: Very cultured people. My cousin's daughter is married to his nephew, Modinagarawala. He's a big architect.
Prabhupada: Yes. No, Modi, he...
Dr. Patel: This Modi, is, I mean, an industrialist, but his nephew, an architect.... My niece was studying in London, and she married with him in England. Intercommunal marriage.
Abhirama: Srila Prabhupada?
Abhirama: I have seen in Miami Beach that one man was found dead in his apartment, and he was living poverty-stricken. His whole place was full of rats and cockroaches. When they investigated his file they found that he had eight million dollars in the bank and in stocks. But all of his friends said he couldn't spend one penny his whole life, because he was too cheap. So even though he was a rich man, actually he was a poor man.
Dr. Patel: But, sir, there are some beggars here in Bombay who have got one and two lakh rupees. You have read the railway(?) story about couple of beggars. They rounded up, and they had money.
Prabhupada: No, I am also a beggar. I am also beggar.
Dr. Patel: That is not.... You are a rich beggar.
Prabhupada: Millions of dollars.
Dr. Patel: Sannyasis don't touch money.
Prabhupada: Yes, I don't touch money. They pass check. (laughter) I simply sign check. All these accounts in Bombay, they are being managed by them. I do not touch even. Lakhs and lakhs of rupees they are spending.
Dr. Patel: Begging is prohibited, so they rounded up the beggars sometime back.
Prabhupada: Therefore I tell him this way. Just give books. Transcendental fraud, that we give, say, fifty rupees' worth book, and we draw 2222. Buddhir yasya balam tasya nirbuddhes tu balam kutah.(?)Hare Krsna. Jaya. You know that story? Eh? You know that story, buddhir yasya balam tasya?
Dr. Patel: "The man who has got the buddhi is a strong man."
Prabhupada: Yes. No. Pasya simho madonmatah sasah kena nipatitah.(?) This is Hitopadesa story. You know this?
Dr. Patel: No, I don't know this.
Prabhupada: There was a lion in the forest, and he was disturbing all the animals. So there was a peace conference: "Sir, you don't disturb every one of us. We shall come."
Dr. Patel: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Eka eka.... (Hindi) "We shall come automatically." So one day it was the turn of a rabbit. So he was a little late, so the lion, "Why you are late? My time is over." "Yes sir, another lion in the way, he wanted to eat me. So I said, 'No, you cannot eat me. I will be eaten by such and such Mr. Lion.' " So he became very..., "Who is that?" "Yes, come on. I will show you." So he got him near a well, and he said that "Here is the lion." So immediately, (growls) "Aww!" (laughter) And there was sound, "Aww!" Then he saw the photo, I mean, the reflection, and immediately jumped over.
A sasa, the rabbit, killed a big lion by intelligence. The Aesop's Fable was imitated from this Hitopadesa.
Dr. Patel: Yes, all are translated more or less.
Dr. Patel: ...Upanisad, in sixth or seventh chapter, he says that even bala is.... I mean buddhi is not stronger than bala. He described like that. (Hindi) Strong man is like that, they have described. That is what.... That is there in Chandogya Upanisad. It was just sort of a story
Prabhupada: No age. As soon as he is able to walk, he can be admitted. What is the wrong there? If he comes to the sea and takes bath and jumps, it doesn't require any age. Any four-year, five-year-old child can do that.
Prabhupada: First of all begin. Then we shall think of old. But.... At least when he is older, he will not become a nonsense. That.... We want to save him from becoming a nonsense. That is our duty. (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Brahmacari gurukule vasan dantah. When the brahmacari is residing in gurukula, he must be trained up how to control senses. That is the first education. People are spoiled because they are not trained up to become controller. That is the defect of the modern age. And when one is unable to control senses, he will do all nonsense.
Gopala Krsna: In Vrndavana the gurukula children went to the Yamuna for two days. Even though it was a forty-five minute walk one way, they enjoyed it.
Prabhupada: Yes, they'll enjoy.
Prabhupada: Very good health.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] ...intelligence and ksatriya's executive power and vaisya's productive capacity and sudra's labor. This combined together makes the whole society perfect.
Dr. Patel: How this social order can be generated in India?
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: The ksatriya's duty is that everyone is religious. It doesn't matter whether he follows Muslim or.... That is ksatriya's duty, not that to discriminate, "The Hindu religion is better than the Muslim religion. Muslim..." That is not the way. If everyone is religious, it doesn't matter whether he is Hindu...
Dr. Patel: No religious Muslim would have ever done harm to Hindus.
Dr. Patel: These are also ruled, these Mullahs.
Prabhupada: Therefore one.... The government's duty is to see that everyone is actually religious and moral. It doesn't matter if he follows some type of religion. [break] ...to discriminate that "Hindu religion is good, Muslim religion is..." Then you cannot act as king.
Dr. Patel: All religion are of God.
Dr. Patel: I have not been able to find out any difference between the Bhagavata-dharma and the Christianity. I have studied so thoroughly both of them. Actually Jesus Christ has taught nothing but Bhagavad-gita and Bhagavata. Still, the Christians, when they came here, these Portuguese, converted these people to Christians. They are fanatics. They are not...
Prabhupada: No, they are doing.... They are doing in their own countries. In France the Roman Catholics and the Protestants, they are fighting and cutting each other's head. And still going on, it is. This is fanaticism.
Indian man: Political fanaticism.
Dr. Patel: Yes, and said Sita was a prostitute. I don't know.... And still, the government could, I mean, support them. It's too much of a joke.
Prabhupada: But these.... You cannot.... Even on religious principle or so-called religion, you cannot make equality. The rogues will always remain, either Hindu, Muslim.
Dr. Patel: You know that Naikar(?) last year. [break] Secular means you respect all religions. That is the definition of secularism. They mean, secularism means no religion. They are fools. You can call them rascals.
Prabhupada: Because we rascals vote them.
Dr. Patel: No, sir. What man, rascals, vote them? It is the hutment fellows who bring them because they are in majority. I have never been elect to, I mean my candidate. Every time my vote goes useless.
Prabhupada: That means you or your brother votes; somebody is elected. People are degenerated; therefore they do not know whom to vote.
Prabhupada: Degenerated. They do not...
Prabhupada: Therefore they do not know.
Dr. Patel: They vote five-rupees notes.
Prabhupada: So that is degeneration. For five-rupee notes he is giving his valuable vote to anybody. That is degeneration.
Dr. Patel: That is why we really.... We are not for this type of Western type of democracy. We should have Rama-rajya, a benevolent dictatorship of a good king, a religious king like Rama. That should be the ideal condition for this country. This way, sir.
Prabhupada: Our buses are bigger than this, I think. Eh?
Dr. Patel: This is a Matadar Campo(?), no? This is a Matadar Campo(?).
Devotee (2): [break] ...Deities with Acyutananda Swami. He's going to travel down South India as soon as he's finished...
Devotee (2): But Acyutananda was explaining that people in South India don't accept Gaura-Nitai so much as Radha-Krsna.
Prabhupada: Oh, all right. (end)