Bhagavad-gita 7.1

Auckland, April 15, 1972
Ladies and gentlemen, I beg to thank you for giving us the opportunity to preach Krsna consciousness in this meeting. So this is the essence of Krsna consciousness movement, this verse spoken by Krsna Himself. Bhagavad-gita is spoken by Krsna Himself, and we are preaching krsna-katha, the words, the message of Krsna, as it is, without any wrong interpretation.
Our beloved student Sriman Hanuman Gosvami has already given some introduction about our movement. Lord Caitanya, five hundred years ago, ordered it. Lord Caitanya is accepted as Krsna Himself in the form of a devotee. Krsna, when He was personally present, He stressed that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. I understand that you are reading in this hall Bhagavad-gita regularly. You know all these verses. Mattah parataram nanyat asti kincit. Krsna says, mattah: "Beyond Me." Just like if I say, "Beyond me, this person." Similarly Krsna says mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7].
So your prayer, nirakara, or gagana-sadrsa, that is one feature of Krsna. Krsna is person. The nirakara, Brahman feature is His effulgence of the body. That is expressed in the Bhagavad-gita, brahmanah aham pratistha. The Absolute Truth is realized in three angles of vision according to the capacity of the devotee. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam yaj jnanam advayam [SB 1.2.11]. Tattva-vit. Tattva-vit means one who has realized the Supreme Truth. He is called tattva-vit. Tattva means Supreme Truth, and vit means one who knows. So vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvam [SB 1.2.11]. Those who know what is Absolute Truth, they say that is the Absolute Truth which is advaya-jnana. Advaya-jnana means without any duality. Just like here in this material world it is called dual world, duality. Everything cannot be understood absolutely. If I say... It is a, rather in ordinary language, relative world. Here everything is relative. Just like if I say "father," "father" has no meaning if there is no son. Duality. If I say "good," so unless I have got idea of bad, I cannot understand good. If I say "light," unless I have got conception of darkness, I cannot understand light.
So here everything is duality, relative knowledge, relative world, but in the absolute world everything is one, spirit. Here... because here we have got experience two energies, spiritual energy and material energy, working. The material energies are the physical elements, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh: [Bg. 7.4] earth, water, fire, air, sky, and, in subtle form, mind, intelligence, ego. They are all material. Mind is also material, intelligence is also material, but they are subtle forms. And spiritual existence is the living entity, as we are. These things are very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim param. The material, physical elements, they are inferior quality of, inferior quality, energy, of Krsna. But the superior quality of energy we are, living entities. Jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg. 7.5].
Therefore here in this material world there are two energies working. In the spiritual world there is only spiritual energy working. But in the material world, two energies are working: material and spiritual. Material energy is dependent on spiritual energy. Spiritual energy is prominent everywhere, in this material world and the spiritual world. Here also, the matter is developing upon spirit, not that spirit is manifesting under certain conditional stage of matter. That is a wrong theory. For example, the small spiritual spark, the living entity, very small, we cannot even imagine with our material brain. It is one ten-thousandth part of a point. We, in the material world, we cannot measure the length and breadth of point. Therefore those who are mathematicians, they say, "Point has no length, no breadth." But actually that is not a fact. You have no eyes to see the length and breadth of a point. You are so blunt, your senses are so limited, imperfect, that you cannot imagine that a point can have length and breadth. But we get information from Vedic literature, not only the point, but one ten-thousandth part of the point is measured. Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca, jivo bhagah sa vijneyah [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. Because we have no imagination, we have no instrument, neither we have sufficient knowledge what is the length and breadth of the form of the living entity, therefore Vedic literature gives you an idea that you just try to imagine one ten-thousandth part of the point, and that is the measurement. Kesagra-sata-bhagasya satadha kalpitasya ca, jivo bhagah sa vijneyah sa canantyaya kalpate [Cc. Madhya 19.140]. So living entities, spiritual spark, that measurement is given there. Whenever there is measurement, there is form. It is not...
But because we cannot see the form, we say nirakara. It is our incompetency. Just like I cannot see beyond this wall. My seeing power is limited. Therefore I see there is nothing beyond this. There is nothing beyond this room. That is not fact. There is everything. I can see the sun, which is fourteen hundred thousand times bigger than this planet, but my eyes are seeing, daily just like a disc. So don't believe your senses. Your senses are imperfect. Whatever knowledge you get by experimental knowledge, experimental method, that is the modern ways of understanding. But these things cannot be experimented. Therefore we have to take the knowledge from the Vedas. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12]. Tad visnoh paramam padam sada pasyanti surayah. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman (Katha Upanisad 2.2.13). These are Vedic mantras. We have to understand the transcendental science through Vedic knowledge. By our imperfect knowledge, if we try to understand the Absolute Truth, naturally we shall find Him.
We can imagine. Just like gagana-sadrsa. So God is great, but we have no knowledge how He is great. We can simply think of gagana, the sky. That is the greatest. That is our... But we do not know that millions of skies are within the belly of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. There our estimation, gagana-sadrsa, is imperfect. How He can be gagana-sadrsa? Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anda-nathah [Bs. 5.48]. Jagad-anda-nathah. Jagad-anda means universe, and the gagana is within the universe. Gagana, we cannot see beyond this gagana, but beyond this gagana there is another gagana. In the Bhagavad-gita... You are reading Bhagavad-gita. You must know it. Paras tasmat tu bhavah anyah: [Bg. 8.20] "There is another sky, spiritual sky." Sanatana. Paras tasmat tu bhavah anyah avyaktah avyaktat sanatanah, sarvesu nasyatsu na vinasyati. This gagana will be annihilated at the time of destruction, but that does not annihilate.
So the idea of gagana is not perfect idea of the Supreme. Gagana-sadrsa, that is limited within the purview of our knowledge because we cannot think that anything can be greater than this big sky. No, He is mahato mahiyan, bigger than the biggest, anor aniyan, smaller than the smallest. Just like we can imagine atom, the smallest. But atom we can see by some way or other atom. Six atoms, trasarenu. Six atoms, when it is combined, we can see through the windows with the sunshine so many trasarenu. Those small particles which we see through the window with sunshine, they are combination of six atoms. They are not original atom. But the atomic constitution of the living entity is a thousand times smaller than the atom. Therefore anor aniyan mahato mahiyan: "He is greater than the greatest and smaller than the smallest." The smaller than the smallest, we are. We are also part and parcel. Just like the sun and the sunshine. The sunshine is combination of small atomic molecular parts, shining parts. They are also different. They are not combined together. That is scientific. Similarly, we are also sparks of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. You are reading Bhagavad-gita. You know. That amsa, that is described already—one ten-thousandth part of the point. Mamaivamso jiva bhutah [Bg. 15.7]. In another place, jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat [Bg. 7.5]. This material world is important because it is being manipulated by that small spiritual spark, jiva-bhutam maha-baho.
So we are small particles, part and parcel of the Supreme, and they are distributed all over His creation, brahmajyoti. That is nirakara. But the brahmajyoti is not the ultimate truth. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate [SB 1.2.11]. The first realization... Just like light in the morning. When you see light, you see the light of the sun. But that is not very important thing, sunlight. Of course, we have no other means to understand beyond the sunlight, but we take it sunlight is very important. Actually very important because through sunlight the whole universe is maintained. It is sunlight. As soon as there is shortage of sunlight, the place becomes immediately condemned. As soon as there is sunlight, we feel pleasure, "Oh, today is very sunny day, nice." So sunlight is always there, but it is being covered. The sunlight is not covered, sun is not covered, but our eyes are covered. Suppose there is cloud. A cloud may expand, say, a hundred miles. But do you think the sunlight is a hundred miles? You cannot estimate, millions and millions of miles. So what hundred-miles cloud can cover the sun? The hundred-miles cloud can cover my eyes. And we say, "Today sun is covered by the cloud." That is our ignorance.
Similarly, the Supreme Brahman, who is spreading the effulgence of light, He cannot be covered. We are covered. We, the small particles, we are covered. Mohita. Tribhir gunamayair bhavair mohitam. Mam eva nabhijanati. In the Bhagavad-gita this is. They are bewildered by this external energy. Their eyes have been covered. Their eyes... Our, because we are very small, so our senses, the capacity of the senses, they are also limited. Although we have got all the qualities, because fire and a spark of fire qualitatively the same, but quantitatively different. Similarly, we are Brahman, and Krsna is Parabrahman, Supreme Brahman. Nityo nityanam, the chief of the all eternals. Cetanas cetananam. He is the supreme living entity of all living entities. He is also living entity. So if I am a living entity, I have got a form, so why the supreme living entity will not have a form? This is poor fund of knowledge. He is not nirakara. But we cannot estimate His akara. That is nirakara. Nirakara means to estimate. We cannot estimate how big He is. That means nira... Nirakara does not mean formless. When there is in the sastra, nirakara, this word is used, nirakara means He has no prakrta-akara, material form. That is nirakara, not that he has no form. That is poor fund of knowledge. He is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1]. Therefore Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam: [Bg. 9.11] "My original form is like human being." And the Bible also it is said, "Man is made after the form of God."
So God has a form just like a human being, two hands, two legs, and He Himself comes to show Him. That is Krsna. He is not nirakara. Isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. Vigraha, vigraha means form. Isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah. Avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah [Bg. 7.24]. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. You know. Avyaktam vyaktim apannam. "The original is impersonal Brahman. Now He has taken form." This conclusion, who makes? Avyaktam vyaktim apannam manyante mam abuddhayah [Bg. 7.24]: "Those who are less intelligent, whose intelligence is very poor, they consider that ultimately I am nirakara. I have taken the form." Sakara-nirakara. No. Krsna says, sambhavamy atma-mayaya: [Bg. 4.6] "I come out of My good will." Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata, tadatmanam srjamy aham: [Bg. 4.7] "At that time I appear." Therefore Krsna says, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah [Bg. 4.9]. We have to understand Him in truth, not by imagination, not by malinterpretation, but by fact. The fact is being explained by Krsna Himself. Why we should go to understand Krsna by the commentary of some less intelligent, some poor fund of knowledge? Why we should go?
So this Krsna consciousness movement means we are presenting the Bhagavad-gita as it is. That's all. We have no difficulty. We have no difficulty because Krsna is accepted as authority, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by all the acaryas, not only formerly, like Vyasadeva, Narada, Asita, Devala, many, many big, big stalwart... Vyasadeva everyone knows. Vyasadeva is the original writer of Vedic knowledge, Vedavyasa. He accepts Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. His disciple Narada accepts, the Supreme Personality of..., Vyasadeva's guru, Narada. Narada's guru, Brahma, he accepts, isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. Govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami **. So Govinda is person. This impersonal Brahman, nirakara, that is His personal effulgence, bodily effulgence. Just like the sun. You can understand. The sun planet is localized, and within the sun planet, there is sun-god. His name is also mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita, Vivasvan.
So this is the process of studying Bhagavad-gita. So if you study Bhagavad-gita and conclude that the Absolute Truth is nirakara, I don't think you are making very much progress. Therefore Krsna says, tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. You try to understand this science by pranipata, pranipatena, by surrendering, not by serving yourself, that "I am very learned scholar. Why shall I surrender?" No. That is the first thing wanted. If you want to understand Bhagavad-gita, then you must take the direction from the Bhagavad-gita. The first direction is evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. "All the rajarsis, they understood Bhagavad-gita by the parampara system." That parampara system, Krsna also says, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: [Bg. 4.1] "I spoke first of all this system of yoga system mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita." That is bhakti-yoga. What is that yoga system? Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is the ultimate instruction of Bhagavad-gita. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]. "All the Vedas, they are teaching only to understand Me, Krsna."
So if we do not understand Krsna as He is, although He is explaining, all the acaryas are explaining... In our country... You come from India. In our country there are big, five acaryas who is practically controlling the Hindu society or the Vedic society: Sankaracarya, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka, Visnu Svami, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So we have to follow the footprints, the footsteps of the acaryas. That is mentioned in the... Acaryopasanam. If you want to advance in knowledge, then you must worship the acaryas. Otherwise what knowledge you will get? You cannot get, manufacturing knowledge or getting knowledge from somebody who has manufactured knowledge. The knowledge must be received by parampara, by parampara, as Krsna says. Evam parampara-praptam [Bg. 4.2], sa kaleneha yogo nastah parantapa. He again spoke the science of Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna because the parampara was broken. Sa kaleneha nastah. Otherwise there was no need of speaking Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna. And why He selected Arjuna to understand Bhagavad-gita? That is also explained. One may say that Arjuna was a grhastha, householder, and a politician and a soldier. Why Bhagavad-gita was instructed to him? That is natural. He was not a vedanti. He was not a brahmana. He was not a sannyasi. Why he was selected to understand Bhagavad-gita? This should be... There should be inquiry. Generally you understand that a vedanti, a sannyasi, a brahmana may know about spiritual knowledge, about God. No, that is not the fact. The fact is, as Krsna says, bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyam hy etad uttamam: [Bg. 4.3] "Because you are My devotee, because you are My dear friend, you can understand the mystery of Bhagavad-gita."
So the ordinary man who is either Krsna conscious nor a devotee of Krsna, he cannot explain Bhagavad-gita. Whatever they are explaining they are simply spoiling their time and others' also, big, big scholars—I do not wish to discuss—simply misled. Now this movement has begun to present Bhagavad-gita as it is, and people are taking. People are accepting. So you Indians who are present here, that is my request, that you can do tremendous service on behalf of your country. As Caitanya Mahaprabhu said,
So in this land, New Zealand, fortunately you are there. You try to understand Bhagavad-gita as it is and preach it. People will take. People will appreciate your contribution. As our Gosvamiji said that... Actually I have experienced. Whenever I go... When I was in Columbus, I met one gentleman on the street. So as soon as he understood that I am from India, "Oh, India is very poverty-stricken." Yes. This is our advertisement. And actually, in comparison to Western countries, we are poverty-stricken. That's all right. But still we have gift. We have to give something which is so brilliant. This is Krsna consciousness.
So my request is that we are going to start a Radha-Krsna temple here. Just cooperate with us. These foreigners are doing your business. It was your business to spread Krsna consciousness all over the world, but you are sleeping. But the Americans, Canadians, Europeans, I am training them. So you take it very seriously. You try to understand Bhagavad-gita as it is. Try to understand Krsna and spread it. That is my request.
Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. [break]
Indian guest (1): ...must be a very enlightened man to be able to carry on the work that you are doing, and the vast amount of work that you have done. I would like to ask just one question, if you could enlighten me on that. I would like to hear your explanation on how do you have seen the form of God, if you have had any enlightenment on this. In what form you have...
Prabhupada: Here is the picture of Krsna. You don't believe? You have not seen picture of Krsna?
Indian guest (1): Yes, I have.
Prabhupada: Then why do you say there is no form of Krsna? When you see a photograph of a person, how do you know that he has no form?
Indian guest (1): I do not understand that.
Prabhupada: If you see the photograph of your father, how do you say that is he impersonal, he has no form? How do you conclude? First of all answer me. I have seen form of Krsna. You have seen also form of Krsna. There are hundreds and thousands of temples in India. Do you think they are all fools? And they were established by big acaryas, by Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnu Svami, Lord Caitanya. There is Jagannatha temple. Jagannatha temple, every day hundreds and thousands of people are going to see. In Vrndavana there are five thousand temples, Krsna. Five thousand, ten thousand people are going. You know. In India there are so many pilgrimages. So do you think all these temples established by our predecessor, they are all fools?
Indian guest (1): So therefore you conclude that when you become enlightened, you will see the God in form of human nature?
Prabhupada: Yes. That is after. In the beginning you have to accept this form, but when you make advance, then you will see always.
santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami
[Bs. 5.38]
When you... First of all you begin, how to try to learn how to love God. And when you are actually on the platform of love, prema, premanjana-cchurita-bhakti, you will see God always in His form. He becomes revealed. You haven't got to try to see, but He will reveal. Svayam eva sphuraty adah. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah [Brs. 1.2.234]. When you engage your tongue... That beginning is tongue. Jihvadau sevonmukhe. If you begin your service... God cannot be understood by our challenging mood. Therefore Krsna says, "First of all surrender. Then try to understand." Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg. 18.66]. When you surrender, and by that surrendering process, when you are free from the resultant action of sinful activities, then you can appreciate God, not that God is my order-supplier: "Please come. I will see You." No. Yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya. You are reading Bhagavad-gita. You know all these things.
These things are there in the Bhagavad-gita. One who is completely free from the resultant action of sinful activities, they can be engaged fully in Krsna consciousness. So these students are being trained how to become free from sinful activities. They are forbidden not to have illicit sex. These are four pillars of sinful activities: illicit sex life, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. Yatra papas catur-vidha. These are exactly to the injunction of the Vedas. So if we purify ourself... In the Bhagavad-gita, Arjuna appreciates Krsna, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. How you can approach the pavitram paramam bhavan without being pavitra? So there is a process to appreciate whether Krsna or God has form. Unless we adopt the form, superficially it is not possible. I see otherwise there are... Why so many process of bhajana-sadhana if it is so cheap that we can immediately understand what is God? No. And the Veda says, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. That was our system. First of all, they used to become brahmacaris, to become most obedient servant of the spiritual master before becoming grhastha. Celibacy, brahmacari, then grhastha. So these things are all lost now. Therefore the sastra says,
harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha
[Cc. Adi 17.21]
You chant Hare Krsna mantra with your tongue. Take prasadam of Krsna. You will gradually develop your Krsna consciousness, and you will understand what is God. That is the process.
Hanuman: Any other questions?
Indian guest (2): Swamiji, we live in the Western world, and some are born here, although the youth and from their date of birth they are all born in India. Perhaps we know very little about Gita, but this movement have taken to convert people or to convince people, and how do you give these people stages? Because when persons are ignorant, they need primarily some teaching and then, just like in the school, they go step by step. In this movement, how can you or what can you expect, or what would you like to give as an enlightenment for ordinary people? Suppose myself. I am just an ordinary person, and I don't understand anything. Well, what I'd like to know, that I think if you just give those steps would be far better for the audience to just follow that.
Prabhupada: Yes. That I have already explained, that we are training people in different parts of the world by opening centers. So you come and take the advantage of this center and learn how to do it. This center is open for this purpose, that people may take advantage how to develop Krsna consciousness. Just like you go to a school and you learn how to read and write, and then you pass M.A. examination, similarly, if you think that you have forgotten, you have no knowledge, please come, take the process. And just like these people, they were not born in India. They are not Hindus. They are not Vaisnavas. Their forefathers never heard what is Krsna, neither they heard. How they are taking? It is the process. That process we are giving to everyone without any discrimination. We have got students from all communities: Hindus, Muslim, Christian, Parsis, and Africans. The process is so perfect. If you take the process, you will also understand. So for this teaching this process, we are opening center here. You all Indians, your chance is first. So why don't you cooperate and learn? It is open to everyone. It is not a secret thing. So I invite you on Tuesday. (aside:) At what time we are going to...?
Bali-mardana: Seven-thirty.
Prabhupada: Seven-thirty evening. Please come. The temple will be open and you come, you try to understand. You invite us occasionally in this big place. We have no big place now. We have got very small place. But we shall be very glad to speak about Krsna consciousness movement.
So everything is... That I was going to explain. There was no time.
Krsna is teaching, mayy asakta: "Just try to increase your attachment for Me." There is a process, how to increase attachment. Mayy asakta. So attachment process. Attachment process is
adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya
tato 'nartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha rucis tatah
athasaktis tato bhavas tatah premabhyudancati
sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah
[Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]
There is a process. If you are actually serious, then come to the process, adau sraddha. Just like you are hearing me kindly. It is called sraddha. You have got little sraddha. Next stage is sadhu-sanga [Cc. Madhya 22.83]. Those who are actually practicing Krsna consciousness, just associate with them. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sango 'tha bhajana-kriya [Cc. Madhya 23.14-15]. Then, if you try to follow how they are... Just like they are chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama... If you follow the bhajana-kriya, then anartha-nivrttih syat. Anartha, unwanted things. Just like these four things of sinful activities—illicit sex and intoxication, gambling and meat-eating—these are anartha. Anartha means it is not necessary at all. It is not that without meat-eating, we cannot live. Thousands and thousands in India, eighty percent, they are strictly vegetarian. That does not mean they are dying. Here also, in Western countries, I have got thousands and thousands of disciples. They have given up all these things. That does not mean that they have become dead. No. It is anartha, unwanted. So if you take to bhajana-kriya, then automatically this anartha also will disappear. Anartha-nivrttih syat. That means you become purified. Tato nistha. Then you will have firm conviction. Tato nistha tato rucih. Then taste, taste will increase. Athasaktih. Then asakti. That is Krsna speaking in the Seventh Chapter, mayy asakta-manah. We have to increase our attachment for Krsna. And this is the process. So there is process. If you are actually serious, you can take the process, and you will be successful.
Indian guest (3): One more question, Swamiji. When a person gradually go along the path and have, in the process, have some achievements, don't you agree that chanting is not the only attachment, or rather to know Krsna? He can...
Prabhupada: There may be other methods. I can understand you. But the sastra says, "No other method will be successful." Kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha. Karma, jnana, yoga. So therefore three times stressed, nasty eva. "By karma you will not be successful." Time is different. Just like you go to a drug shop, there are hundreds and thousands of medicines. They are all medicine, but the medicine which is prescribed by the physician for you, that is your medicine. So in this age this is the medicine. There may be other methods, they are all bona fide methods, but they will not be successful. This method will be successful. You have to take in that light.
Indian guest (4): Do you give any importance of coming in, sighting of the soul in the front, and can a person not act as a human being, but...
Prabhupada: Well, you are in my front. You are a soul. What is the difficulty? Everyone, you are all souls. You are in my front. Simply you are dressed only. Suppose you come in a dress. You are my friend. Do I see your dress or you? Panditah sama-darsinah. Vidya-vinaya-sampanne [Bg. 5.18]. You are reading Bhagavad-gita. You know all these things. When you are learned, you won't see the dress. You will see the soul.
Indian guest (5): My real object... Still, I want to... The chanting would be the primary stage, but it is not the stage that it will stay on all the time for a person who is really seeing the truth.
Prabhupada: No. If you take the process, you will come to the perfectional stage very easily.
Indian guest (5): But do you agree or not?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Indian guest (5): That chanting is not the stage you have to preserve all the time or practice all the time?
Syamasundara: That you become as more advanced in spiritual life, your chanting drops away.
Prabhupada: No. no, chanting is eternal. After you become perfect, you will also chant more loudly.
Indian guest (5): I have one question. Swamiji, you accept Krsna as the supreme glory...
Prabhupada: I do not accept. The whole Vedas accept.
Indian guest (5): But in our Hindu religion, there are gods and goddesses. There are so many.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. That is for material purpose. Those who are after material benefits, they can worship different demigods. That is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita. That is the point. You are reading Bhagavad-gita. You should note all these things. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnana yajante anya-devatah [Bg. 7.20]. Those who are bewildered or lost of intelligence, they go to worship other demigods.
Indian guest (5): Basically we accept...
Prabhupada: So those who are interested in spiritual salvation, they need not worship other demigods, but those who are interested for material profit, they can worship demigods. Yajante anya-devatah. Karmana... There is a verse. Just to have immediate result of material profit, the Vedas recommend, "All right, you worship this demigod, that demigod." So our concern is we don't want any material profit; we want Krsna. Therefore we do not require to worship demigods.
Indian guest (5): But why not Visnu?
Prabhupada: Visnu and Krsna the same. Visnu and Krsna the same. Krsna is visnu-tattva.
Indian guest (5): Rama and...
Prabhupada: Rama also. We worship Rama also. Rama, visnu-tattva.
Indian guest (5): Because they are the incarnation of the Visnu. The person himself is the reincarnation of the Visnu.
Prabhupada: So whatever is... That is your conclusion. But Krsna said mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. So if we have to believe Bhagavad-gita, then Krsna is the Supreme. That's all. Now have kirtana. (end)

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