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Satsvarupa: [testing microphone] Hare, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna Hare Hare ... [break]

Prabhupada: ...janmani tava carjuna [Bg 4.5].

Indian man (1): Tany aham veda sarvani.

Prabhupada: Why it is? That is my question. [break]

Indian man (1): God is the knower everywhere.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man (1): He's there every time. Bhutva bhavyo bhavat prabhu. God was in the past, present. He's ev... He is in the past, as well as present, in the future. There is no question of...

Prabhupada: No, no. I was also. I am also nitya.

Indian man (1): No, we are not nitya.

Prabhupada: God is nityo nityanam.

Indian man (1): I mean... Nityanam. But we are jiva. As long as I am jiva, I don't...

Prabhupada: Ah, then dvaita-vada. Then dvaita-vada.

Indian man (1): Dvaita-vada has to come. As long as you're in the body, you are dvaita. You cannot say when you are in the body that you are the God.

Prabhupada: No, no. We are always dvaita.

Indian man (1): As long as you are in the body, if you have got the body consciousness, then you're always in dvaita.

Prabhupada: No, no. Body..., body..., body is...

Indian man (1): No, what I feel, Swamiji...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (1): I have got a body consciousness, that I am the body. I am Shah. Then I am dvaita, and I should be your servant.

Prabhupada: No.

Indian man (1): And I cannot say that I am the Lord. But if...

Prabhupada: No.

Indian man (1): ...I forget completely body consciousness...

Prabhupada: Body consciousness, that is ignorance. That is... Just like you are dressed with this shirt. If you think that you are shirt, that is your ignorance.

Indian man (1): Body consciousness...

Prabhupada: Just first of all try to understand.

Indian man (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: If you think that you are a shirt, that is ignorance, gross ignorance.

Indian man (1): That's right. Correct.

Prabhupada: And if I have got this shawl, if I am thinking, "I am shawl," that is my ignorance. But either shawl or shirt, we are all individual. That is [indistinct]. This, this is ignorance. But ignorance or knowledge, we are all individual.

Indian man (1): Body consciousness is not, I mean it is... Suppose somebody insults me.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man (1): Suppose somebody insults a God-minded person, and the God-minded person thinks, "Well, he's not insul..., he's insulting this body, and not the living entity in me." That means he has lost the body consciousness. Suppose if beats with a stick, and he goes...

Prabhupada: No, no. That, that is ignorance. I have already explained.

Indian man (1): But I feel it is not ignorance...

Prabhupada: Ignorance...

Indian man (1): It is, if he feels in the true sense...

Prabhupada: No, my point is, either you are in ignorance or in knowledge, you are individual. [break] ...have to, so why so long?

Indian man (1): Yes, here, here is... We have to walk quickly there.

Dr. Patel: But we thought you would come late, so we went there.

Indian man (1): So you have lost some... [break]

Indian man (2): ...pariprasnena sevaya... [Bg 4.34]. [break]

Prabhupada: Either you are in ignorance or in knowledge, both cases you are individual.

Indian man (1): In knowledge also we are individual?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (1): How?

Prabhupada: Knowledge means...

Dr. Patel: Knowledge of God.

Prabhupada: Yes. Knowledge means knowledge of yourself. When you are actually in knowledge, then you will surrender to Krsna. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg 7.19]. That is knowledge. So long you do not surrender to Krsna, you are in ignorance. Now, in ignorance, in ignorance I am surrendering to my wife, and in knowledge I'll have to surrender to Krsna.

Indian man (1): Correct.

Prabhupada: That's all.

Indian man (1): Both the times we are individuals. In both the times we are individuals. Correct.

Prabhupada: Nityo nityanam [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13].

Indian man (1): Nityah anityanam.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Some people say nityah anityanam also.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Dr. Patel: Nityah anityanam some also say. Nityo 'nityanam cetanas...

Prabhupada: Who... One who says anitya, he's a rascal. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Take that.

Prabhupada: I, I say you. How, how the jivas can be anitya?

Dr. Patel: No, it cannot be.

Prabhupada: Then nitya.

Dr. Patel: No, they mean..., anitya means all the matter. Nitya in the matter.

Indian man (1): Temporary, effervescent.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Dr. Patel: Nitya in the matter, in the form of...

Prabhupada: As soon as they say anitya, then they are duality. There is no oneness.

Dr. Patel: So I have read both the type of acclamation: nitya and anitya.

Prabhupada: No, then... One who says anitya... Anitya...

Dr. Patel: Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13].

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Yo vidadhati...

Prabhupada: Eko yo bahunam.

Dr. Patel: Eko yo bahunam.

Prabhupada: Vidadhati kaman.

Indian man (1): ...vidadhati kaman, tam atma-stham ye 'nupasyanti dhiras... netaresam.

Prabhupada: Nityo nityanam. That means we, jiva, we are plural number, and the Supreme Lord is singular number. So what is the difference? The difference is that eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. That bahu-vacana, nityanam, they are maintained by the singular number.

Dr. Patel: Eko bahunam yo vidadhati kaman. He is only one. But He is, I mean, fulfilling their... This is so many, all. Because He actually...

Prabhupada: He is feeding everyone. He is feeding His devotee, as well as nondevotees. The nondevotees are also provided by God. The nondevotees, they are not independent. They are also dependent. But they do not acknowledge.

Indian man (1): They don't understand.

Prabhupada: Just like the prisoners. They are also maintained by government. And those who are not prisoners, they are also maintained by government. The prisoners are outlaw. They do not recognize the government. That is prisoner, criminals. But both of them are provided by the government. And so far individuality is concerned, that is mentioned in the Second Chapter. Krsna said that "You, Me and all these soldiers and kings, they were before existing like this, they're existing now like this, and they'll continue to exist." So individuality's always. Krsna never said that "After this, we shall become a homogeneous mass." Never says. Individual.

Dr. Patel: Just as the bees gather honey from different trees...

Prabhupada: Yes, they keep their individuality.

Dr. Patel: ...and when the whole mass comes from, each small particle of honey does not know that he's from a particular tree, like that, he becomes... After the whole thing he gets, what do you call? The deluge.

Prabhupada: No, no. Those, the collector, they remain individual, after and before, on the beehive. Always individual. That is the point. When they begin collecting honey, they're individual. And after collecting, when they make a beehive, they're individual. Or when they're sitting on the beehive, they're individual. Eternal. This is eternal. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13].

[break] So what is that? Mamaivamso jiva-bhutah?

Dr. Patel:

Prabhupada: Karsati.

Dr. Patel: Prakrti-sthani karsati.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sariram yad avapnoti yac capy utkramatisvarah... [Bg 15.8]

Prabhupada: So... So they... Sariram, sariram yad avapnoti. They get different bodies, but they're individuals. They're individuals.

Dr. Patel: They are individuals till there is a salvation. And after, they are...

Prabhupada: Eh? Salvation means when they have ceased to accept the material body. That is salvation. Sariram yad avapnoti. So avapnoti means it was not... In the spiritual body there was no such thing, but they accept this material body.

Dr. Patel: This morning I read a very good thing from Srimad-Bhagavatam, from Eleventh... [break]

Prabhupada: ...every day say. Every day say.

Dr. Patel: It is a wonderful thing.

Prabhupada: Every day I say like that.

Dr. Patel: [Sanskrit]

Indian man (1): [Sanskrit] [break]

Prabhupada: ...we are servant. That I have explained several times. Yesterday also I explained. That, our constitutional position as servant, cannot be changed. Just like sudra, servant. What is called [indistinct]. The servant class?

Dr. Patel: Sudra.

Prabhupada: What do they say?

Dr. Patel: They cannot work for me.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Dr. Patel: Servants.

Prabhupada: The domestic servants. What do you call? Ramaya[?], servants.

Indian man (1): Rama, rama, rama, rama.

Dr. Patel: He's really Rama. [laughter] No, but I have read in Manu-smrti that all these sudras also, after the age of forty years, they come to the stage of brahmanas. I don't know how.

Prabhupada: No, no. There is no bar. One may be... One may be uneducated now. He can be educated.

Dr. Patel: Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya, he becomes a brahmana.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya [Visnu Purana 3.8.9], he becomes a brahmana. After forty years of age.

Prabhupada: No, no. Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya...

Dr. Patel: Because he, by his own action, becomes brahmana because he does the service of the Lord.

Prabhupada: No, no. Anyone who is engaged in the arcana of the Supreme, he's neither of these: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. He is Brahman. He has realized Brahman.

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhuto 'bhijayate.

Prabhupada: Yes. He is no more sudra or brahmana. In the material world, even if you become a brahmana, that is not a very good position. That is maya: "I am brahmana."

Dr. Patel: But a sannyasis are also from the varnasrama.

Prabhupada: They are also. They are also. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has denied: "I am not a sannyasi, I am not a brahmana, I am not a ksatriya, I am not a vaisya, none of these." He said, gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah [Cc Madhya 13.80]: "I am the servant of the servant of gopi-bhartuh." That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's identification. So those who are actually in the..., engaged in the service of the Lord, they are beyond, transcendental to the position of brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya... Yes.

Dr. Patel: Naham...

Indian man (1): [Sanskrit] [break]

Dr. Patel: That is not Mayavadi. That is not Mayavadi.

Prabhupada: That is... That is... That is not. I don't... If I say, "I am not Indian, I am not American. I am Brahman," that is not Mayavada.

Indian man (1): That is not Mayavada.

Prabhupada: Because I am Brahman actually.

Dr. Patel: [indistinct].

Prabhupada: But...

Indian man (1): Mano buddhi ahaṅkara. [Bg 7.4]

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. I do not belong to any of these material things.

Dr. Patel: Cidananda aham.

Prabhupada: That is not Mayavada. But the Saṅkaracarya's interpretation is that ghatakasa potakasa, ghatakasa potakasa. Just like within the pot there is akasa. And outside the akasa..., outside the pot, there is akasa. So when the pot is broken, both the akasa becomes one.

Indian man (1): One, yes.

Prabhupada: That is his theory.

Indian man (1): That is his theory. That is Mayavada.

Prabhupada: But he does not accept that individuality.

Indian man (1): Ghatakasa is not... Ghatakasa is not...

Prabhupada: [aside:] Hare Krsna.

Dr. Patel: If he does not... [Sanskrit]

Prabhupada: Eh? No...

Dr. Patel: There is only one akasa. There cannot be multiple akasas.

Prabhupada: No, no, no.

Dr. Patel: Even in the pot or anywhere.

Prabhupada: That I... That you cannot compare. Therefore I say that everyone is individual.

Indian man (1): As long as ghata is there, there is a ghatakasa.

Prabhupada: That, within the ghata, that cannot be compared. The analogy's wrong. Within the ghata the akasa, that is not individual.

Dr. Patel: That's what I say.

Prabhupada: Yes, but we are individual.

Indian man (1): That is individual, sir. As long as ghata is there, you are individual akasa. That is correct.

Dr. Patel: These, all these analogies are nirdesas. Nothing can explain or nothing can describe Brahman, beyond the reach of the mind and the tongue and all the intelligence of a man.

Prabhupada: No, no. Therefore tad viddhi prani... upadeksyanti tad jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah [Bg 4.34]. The tattva-darsi can.

Indian man (1): Tattva-darsi can only do it.

Prabhupada: One who is blind... One who is blind... One who is blind, he cannot.

Dr. Patel: That's right. What about the...

Prabhupada: You cannot... You do not go to a blind man. Therefore it is said, tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg 4.34]. Where you shall surrender? You are blind. If you surrender to a blind man, what is the benefit?

Dr. Patel: Who surrenders there, you also surrender. Not the body...

Prabhupada: No, no. First of all, try to understand. You can surrender to a person when you think that "This person is..."

Indian man (1): Good.

Prabhupada: "...better than me."

Indian man (1): He has realized it.

Prabhupada: Yes. Guru. Guru means he is heavier than you.

Indian man (1): Heavier. Correct, correct.

Prabhupada: So otherwise, where is the question of surrender? Nobody wants to surrender.

Dr. Patel: But the heavier, everyone...

Prabhupada: Heavier means in knowledge.

Dr. Patel: According to the law of Newton also, heavy articles attract the light articles. You are heavier...

Prabhupada: No, Newton was a rascal. You know, Newton was a rascal?

Dr. Patel: I am also one. [laughter]

Prabhupada: Newton was a rascal. He made two holes in the door. And one friend came, "Why you have made these two holes in your door?" He said, "There are two cats, bigger and the smaller. So let them go out." So he asked, "With the bigger hole, the smaller cannot go?" "Yes, yes. You are right." [laughter] Any conditioned soul, he may be Newton or this or that, they are all rascals.

Dr. Patel: No, but some of the highest, I mean...

Prabhupada: No, nobody is highest. Because everyone, everyone is in ignorance.

Dr. Patel: Ignorance is right, but...

Prabhupada: Therefore rascals.

Dr. Patel: Though their knowledge is ignorance, it is that. Brahman knowledge is right.

Prabhupada: So therefore you have to... Therefore the indication is tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya... [Bg 4.34]. You should go and take knowledge.

Dr. Patel: But I talk of the Einstein. Einstein, somebody asked Einstein...

Prabhupada: Anyone...

Dr. Patel: ..."Do you believe in God?" He said, "How can you not believe in God? God is everywhere, and I feel the presence of it." That is the real scientist.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not the other fellows who say there is no God and all these things are atoms and all...

Prabhupada: But still, he does not know that Krsna is God.

Dr. Patel: That is... That is...

Prabhupada: That is ignorance. That is ignorance.

Dr. Patel: ...ignorance of God. That means there will be a quarrel between us two.

Prabhupada: No, no. That is ignorance. Mudha. Mayayapahrta-jnanah [Bg 7.15].

Dr. Patel: Sir...

Prabhupada: As soon as he does not know Krsna, he is ignorant. Therefore it will take time. Bahunam janmanam ante [Bg 7.19]. When actually he becomes a man in knowledge, then he surrenders. So, so long one does not know Krsna, he's a fool. And that is our definition. Now, Mr. Sar, I am right or wrong?

Mr. Sar: You are right, sir. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Now, even though you may not be right, he will say right because he's very much frightened of your calling him a... What do you call me?

Prabhupada: A mudha. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: Well, I'm a vagabond type of man, thick-skinned. You may call me anything, I don't mind. You see? [Prabhupada laughs]

Indian man (1): After all, the views, you see. Everybody is right in his own views. You see? You cannot challenge... After all, the views are given by the God. The jnana-sakti's from God, from the Almighty, and not yourself. [break]

Prabhupada: ...if you are right, Krsna said, sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah.

Indian man (1): Ah, mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg 15.15].

Prabhupada: So why, why Krsna gives you less knowledge and others more knowledge? Why?

Indian man (1): Because...

Prabhupada: Is Krsna partial?

Indian man (1): No. As long as you're more conscious, then He gives you more knowledge.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Conscious [indistinct]. Because, ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg 4.11]. Because the surrender is not full, therefore he's also not fully realized.

Indian man (1): He's not fully... Correct.

Prabhupada: That is the point.

Indian man (1): That's correct.

Prabhupada: Ye yatha mam... That very word, prapadyante. Ye yatha mam prapadyante. So if your surrender is twenty-five percent, then Krsna is realized twenty-five percent. If your surrender is cent per cent, then Krsna is realized cent per cent.

Dr. Patel: Can I say the same yatha and tatha: "The way he surrenders, the way I give..."

Prabhupada: That means proportionate.

Dr. Patel: Why proportionate? Why not other way? The way I surrender in the lower knowledge of science is, well, He has given me the knowledge of science.

Prabhupada: Just like...

Dr. Patel: They have given you the knowledge, the higher knowledge of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Krsna... Krsna is Paramatma, Brahman and Bhagavan. So if you surrender to Brahman, so you realize Brahman. If you surrender Paramatma, you realize Paramatma, and if you surrender to Bhagavan, you realize Bhagavan.

Dr. Patel: To the wife, you get the roti.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Dr. Patel: If you surrender to the wife, you get the roti in the morning. [laughs] [break]

Prabhupada: ...-thirty they open. We have to wait.

Dr. Patel: You will have to order them to open early. You have the...

Prabhupada: No, no, no. Why shall I? Their duty must be finished. You cannot ask God that "You... God... God, please open. I want to see you."

Dr. Patel: Yes. You order God... The, the...

Prabhupada: No, I can order. But that is not my business.

Dr. Patel: That is, that is... He understands the word. Even though you don't say by mouth, God understands. He's not...

Prabhupada: No, no. It is not my order to order God.

Dr. Patel: No, it is not your order, but your mind He understands immediately that He comes there...

Prabhupada: No, why shall I think like that?

Dr. Patel: Because...

Prabhupada: No, that is not bhakti.

Dr. Patel: When you are not thinking, the, the thought automatically comes.

Prabhupada: No, that is not bhakti. You cannot think of that "God may do like this." No.

Dr. Patel: No, no. God does like that. Why He do?

Prabhupada: No, you say that "You order Krsna what you think."

Dr. Patel: I don't say you order. You... Automatically He fulfills your desire. There is no question of your ordering.

Prabhupada: Therefore we should be desireless.

Dr. Patel: Desireless, yes. But desireless...

Prabhupada: Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11]. That is bhakti. Anyabhilasita-sunyam. Anyabhilasita means "As God desires, let it happen." Not according to my desire. That is bhakti. As soon as you impose your desire, that is not bhakti. Why should you impose your desire? God is ready to fulfill the desire of His devotee immediately. He's so ready. But a devotee never desires. He does not like to bring God to fulfill his desires. No, that is not a pure devotee.

Indian man (1): But he has surrendered, and he feels that "God gives me what we require."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: [Gujarati] But now the, now the sun is rising earlier and earlier. That is why. [break]

Prabhupada: Bhakti, pure bhakti: anyabhilasita-sunyam. No desire from the part of the devotee. Jnana-karmady-anavrtam, anukulyena krsnanusilanam [Cc Madhya 19.167]. What Krsna likes, that we should do. Krsna likes that you surrender. We should surrender. That's all. That is the beginning of bhakti. If you don't surrender, you keep your individuality, that is not bhakti.

Indian man (1): There is no bhakti without...

Prabhupada: That is not... Bhakti may be there, but it is not pure cent per cent bhakti.

Indian man (1): It is not pure bhakti.

Dr. Patel: Surrendering means you commit the suicide of your ego before Him.

Indian man (1): No suicide in this.

Prabhupada: No, surrender means surrender. Now you can interpret in a different way.

Dr. Patel: That is my interpretation.

Prabhupada: But why should you interpret? Surrender means you surrender.

Dr. Patel: But what surrender? Not the body...

Prabhupada: No, whatever you have got...

Dr. Patel: Your individuality. Your individuality means your ego. So ego surrendering.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Indian man (1): Surrender is embracing the...

Prabhupada: You are not only ego. You are combination of so many things.

Dr. Patel: But ego is the master of the whole thing.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: After all, ego is the precedent of all aggregate.

Prabhupada: That surrender has been explained by Bhaktivinoda Thakura. He has written a nice song: manasa deho geho, jo kichu mora. It is very easy to understand.

Indian man (1): Yes, yes.

Prabhupada:

Indian man (1): Nanda-kisora. Correct, correct.

Prabhupada: "Nanda-kisora, what I have got? I have got a restless mind and I have got my family, home, wife, children, and this body. This is my possession. I am not the proprietor of the whole world or universe. But I am pro... I suppose, I think like that, that I have got a mind, think like nonsense and do like nonsense, and I have got this body, and I have got my family. So everything I surrender." This is surrender. Don't think anything else, what Krsna does not like. That is first surrender. No reservation, that "So much I surrender to Krsna, and I contemplate like this, like that, like that." That is not surrender.

Indian man (1): That is not surrender.

Indian man (2): And what about the desires?

Prabhupada: Desire, this is desire. This is desire, that you don't make your desire: "Krsna, come. I'll see You." No, don't make that desire. If Krsna likes, He will make His, I mean to say, audience before you. A devotee never says that "Krsna, please come. I'll see You."

Dr. Patel: [indistinct] [laughs]

Prabhupada: Yes. There are many songs: "O my dear Krsna, please come dancing with Your flute. I will see." These are not devotees' song. Krsna will never say..., uh, devotee will never say, order. No more.

Dr. Patel: Devotees are... The real devotees are gopis.

Prabhupada: Simply he's to carry the order. He's not to make order. That is devotee. Everyone in the material world, they worship demigods-why? Because they can order, "Please give me this. Please give me that." Rupam dehi, bharyam dehi, yaso dehi, this dehi, this dehi, dehi... Therefore they go to demigods. But to Krsna he cannot demand. And therefore they do not go; they do not become Vaisnava. You see? You'll see, all the devotees of Lord Siva, they demanded something. "My dear Lord Siva, you are so nice. Please give me this." "What do you want?" "Now, I shall touch anyone's head and head will be cut off." "All right, that's all." These things you cannot get from Krsna. These things you cannot get from Krsna. Therefore people do not go to Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Krsna is a more hard taskmaster.

Prabhupada: Because He cannot acc... He is God. He cannot accept anyone's order. That is God. If somebody accepts my order, he's not God; he's my servant. Or I make him my servant. That is surrender. No more ordering. God is not order-supplier. Although He supplies everything, but not... You cannot order. You cannot order.

Dr. Patel: According to His will.

Prabhupada: Yes. He knows everything. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivistah [Bg 15.15]. He knows what you want. And He's always... [aside:] Aiye. He knows what is your want. Just like father know what is the want of the child. But the child never orders father, "Give me this."

Dr. Patel: Nowadays, children order. They...

Prabhupada: No, he's simply surrendered to father. He's confident, "My father is there. Everything is all right."

Indian man (2): Surrender then, that is not even my family, even I myself, I...

Prabhupada: Therefore Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, "My family also I surrender."

Indian man (2): Then there is no remainder, my family. When I surrender, then nothing...

Prabhupada: Yes. Actually, it is not... You are thinking... It is an illusion. You are illusioned that you are maintaining them. That is an illusion.

Dr. Patel: And illusion is maya.

Prabhupada: You are not maintaining. You are not maintaining. Just like I am, I am...

Indian man (2): [indistinct]

Dr. Patel: That is you find out.

Prabhupada: No, that...

Indian man (1): Then what you'll surrender?

Prabhupada: You are individual soul, part and parcel of Krsna. Aham brahmasmi.

Indian man (2): When I say, "I surrender you," what "I" means?

Prabhupada: You are individual soul.

Dr. Patel: You are ego.

Prabhupada: Not ego. You are individual soul.

Indian man (2): Ego is one part of this.

Prabhupada: Ego is another covering.

Dr. Patel: Covering of the ego you surrender, then the soul surrenders automatically.

Prabhupada: No, no. Covering... Ego is covering of the pure soul. So you are pure soul. That is aham brahmasmi. "I am Brahman. I am not this covering." This covering, bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca ahaṅkara [Bg 7.4], these are coverings.

Indian man (1): They are coverings.

Prabhupada: Material. Even up to ahaṅkara.

Dr. Patel: Saṅghatas cetanam dhrtih.

Prabhupada: That is, that is also material. So... When one realizes that "I am not this. I am pure soul, part and parcel of Krsna," that is..., that surrender is nice. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kaṅksati... [Bg 18.54].

Indian man (1): Samah sarvesu bhutesu...

Prabhupada: Mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg 18.54].

Dr. Patel: Samah sarvesu bhutesu.

Prabhupada: Yes, samah means he knows that "All these individual souls, they're all part and parcel of Krsna."

Indian man (1): He's fully abiding in him.

Prabhupada: Yes. Samah sarvesu bhutesu. So they are, therefore they try, everyone, to bring to Krsna. That is service.

Dr. Patel: The asamata is maya.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: When you consider different...

Prabhupada: So a devotee, therefore, goes everywhere and begs, "Please become Krsna conscious. Please become surrendered to Krsna." That's all.

Dr. Patel: Yesterday, that film arrived?

Prabhupada: Yes?

Dr. Patel: I saw it. I saw you dancing also. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Yes. And because I dance, therefore they dance.

Dr. Patel: But that was becoming in America, the last part of it?

Prabhupada: No. It was in London. Deity installation.

Dr. Patel: He did it very well, the man who edited the film.

Prabhupada: Oh, that Yadubara. He is very good. Where is Yadubara? He is here? No. His wife. Yes. She's also... Visakha. They are, husband and wife, both of them, very expert photography.

Dr. Patel: I may now solicit one to the, to the maya, that [Hindi] of this.

Prabhupada: What is that? That is not maya. [break]

Dr. Patel: ...We are talking on that. Why not get start it here? In this [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Where are men?

Dr. Patel: I can get the men. Will you? No, then I... [break]

Prabhupada: ...yukta-vairagyam ucyate [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.255]. Anything which is favorable to our this being Krsna conscious, we accept.

Indian man (1): [indistinct]

Dr. Patel: No, we don't want because of factory.

Prabhupada: They are, they are doing that business not for any individual profit.

Dr. Patel: No, but for the profit of the temple you can have it.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: No individual profit.

Prabhupada: That we can do.

Dr. Patel: We can do it here. I know so many people who, who can... [break]

Prabhupada: Just like we are printing these books. And as soon as we take the bunch of books to any gentleman, he pays immediately eleven hundred. "Take it." Better business. You see? First of all I began business of this, simply by giving the Krsna book.

Dr. Patel: How much money you collected? I am sorry to ask this personal question.

Prabhupada: How many members we have now?

Bhava-bhuti: Bombay we have...

Prabhupada: All over India.

Dr. Patel: All over India.

Bhava-bhuti: All over India? Well... [break]

Prabhupada: ...and people very gladly, "What is this?" "Bhagavata." "All right." "And we have got six copies." "All right, give me six copies." Like that. And they ask; they get down from their car. As soon as they see our saṅkirtana party's going, "You have got Swami Bhaktivedanta's Bhagavad-gita As It Is?" "Yes." "Give me." They ask like that. [break] ...injecting Krsna consciousness.

Dr. Patel: Yes. [Hindi]

Prabhupada: That is also required. Then, I mean, tending the cows. You see? We are getting seven hundred pounds milk daily.

Dr. Patel: This was in Los Angeles?

Prabhupada: Virginia. Virginia [West Virginia]. Different branches in different states. And the school is in Texas, Dallas. There is immense potency of increasing this movement in America. Immense potency.

Dr. Patel: In all departments of life you can increase. Even the workers who are...

Prabhupada: No, I say, "Let there be saṅkirtana in factory."

Dr. Patel: That is what I say. That is what I say.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: We will start such a factory and do it, and it will be an ideal for...

Prabhupada: No, no. Don't start. Already the factory is there. Go and teach them.

Dr. Patel: Where? In America?

Prabhupada: Any. Here. There are so many factories.

Dr. Patel: I will let them come and see.

Prabhupada: If you, actually you are leader, then you induce them to chant Hare Krsna in the factory.

Indian man (1): Oh, you'll get great sales.

Dr. Patel: Of course, of course. Why not? Why not?

Prabhupada: Whatever factories are already there, you begin chanting there.

Dr. Patel: [Hindi] And then let the fellows follow your model. [break] ...small model of ten boys, who will go on chanting. [break]

Prabhupada: ...operating surgical: "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna..."

Dr. Patel: I am already model.

Prabhupada: That's right. [break] ...coming from the back side. Krsna is sometimes white also. [indistinct]

Dr. Patel: No, He is white in Krta-yuga.

Prabhupada: Sveta, sveta... Suklas te tatha rakta idanim krsnatam gatah [SB 10.8.13]. Gargamuni, when he was deliberating on the horoscope of Krsna, he said that "This child formerly had three other colors." Suklas te tatha rakta. Suklah pitas tatha rakta idanim krsna. Sukla means white.

Dr. Patel: He was white in Krta-yuga. In Treta, He was...

Prabhupada: That is Krsna. That is Krsna.

Dr. Patel: That is Krsna.

Prabhupada: And then He was yellow in Dvapara. And because now He's born in Kali-yuga, He's dark.

Indian man (1): Not Kali-yuga. Dvapara-yuga. Dvapara-yuga.

Dr. Patel: Dvapara and Kali-yuga sandhi.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, that means Krsna had all the colors. Suklo raktas tatha pitah.

Dr. Patel: Because all the murtis, other murtis in big, our temples... Just like in Dvaraka...

Prabhupada: No, in Gujarat...

Dr. Patel: All dark color.

Prabhupada: That's right. And here, there are white also.

Dr. Patel: Senaji, dark.

Prabhupada: In the...

Indian man (1): Tirupati.

Prabhupada: Tirupati?

Dr. Patel: This also dark.

Indian man (1): Tirupati's Visnu.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Visnu is Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. No. I have seen one temple here in Nirguleshwar[?], Radha-Krsna white.

Dr. Patel: No, Maharashtrian temples are all white, excepting... Who?

Indian man (1): Vitthala.

Dr. Patel: Vitoba is black.

Prabhupada: We have black also. Some are black. Some are... In Texas, Dallas, we have got black-Kalachanda. Contradiction. Chandji or Kalaji.

Dr. Patel: What about starting a school of teaching Sanskrit here? There is a... I have a... [break]

Prabhupada: ...have place to stay.

Dr. Patel: You have a place. But in school means... I mean, these boys, you miss...

Prabhupada: Now we are introducing Hindi, Gujarati and Maharati speaking. [aside:] Where is Manasvi? He has gone?

Devotee: Yes.

Dr. Patel: No, but they must talk with people in their own language. They, even sometimes they don't understand me talking English. Of course, I... [break]

Prabhupada: ...one has to study grammar for twelve years.

Dr. Patel: How much?

Prabhupada: Twelve years.

Dr. Patel: Twelve years. Yes.

Prabhupada: And as soon as one has his mastership on the grammar, he can study all other books.

Dr. Patel: No, he can be a poet then. The Sanskrit language is poetic in a way.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: So if you study grammar properly, and then you can..., you can just compose poetry. [break]

Prabhupada: Therefore Lord Brahma is called Adi-kavi. Adi-kavi. Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sanskrit is poetic. You can just compose poetry.

Prabhupada: Whole Sanskrit language in poetry. Bhagavad-gita is in poetry. Bhagavata in poetry. Mahabharata in poetry.

Dr. Patel: Ninety percent of the Sanskrit literature is in poetry.

Prabhupada: Yes. Why ninety? It may be ninety-nine.

Dr. Patel: No, but some of the... Kalidasa, and, you know... They're also composing the slokas in the... But...

Prabhupada: Kalidasa also in poetry.

Dr. Patel: No, that is certain. Not all. Abhijnana-sakuntala is not in poetry.

Prabhupada: Asti himalaya-nama na-gadi-raja. Asti uttana-sana-desi himalaya-nama na-gadi-raja[?].

Dr. Patel: What is that? Raghu-vamsa.

Prabhupada: Raghu-vamsa. It is Raghu-vamsa.

Dr. Patel: I studied his...

Prabhupada: Raghu-vamsa and Kumara-sambhava. We studied some portion.

Dr. Patel: I studied in my college... Haridas. [break]

Prabhupada: Motikama is grammar. Poetry for grammar.

Dr. Patel: Meghaduta I studied. [Sanskrit] [break]

Prabhupada: ...for materialistic persons.

Dr. Patel: No, but they're also... In several places he had entered into high philosophy. It's not only the... Kavi-dhara... There can never be a kavi without philosophy in him.

Prabhupada: Philosophy. Yes, yes.

Dr. Patel: All, even the modern kavis.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Philosophy is the very soul of kavi.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Kavita.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I have found it out.

Prabhupada: Compact in thought.

Dr. Patel: I am regularly reading these poetry. There also, in English poetry, you'll see so many... [break]

Prabhupada: One line, two inch, and another line, six inch.

Dr. Patel: And they, they recite poetry in the prosaic way.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I have actually...

Indian man (1): Walt Whitman. Whitman, Whitman. Walt Whitman.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. He's a great poet, American. Our Hayagriva is very much fond of him. You are also?

Satsvarupa: Not so much.

Indian man (1): Yes, we must have some poets in this, our congregation.

Prabhupada: Everyone is poet. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: That is the masterstroke you give. This way.

Prabhupada: Without being kavi, one cannot become devotee. There are twenty-six qualification of a devotee. One of them is to become kavi.

Dr. Patel: Kavi means the one who knows present, past and future. Is it not?

Prabhupada: A man of knowledge.

Dr. Patel: And knowledge means this knowledge.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Yesterday only you said that in the course, this thing.

Prabhupada: That is perfect knowledge. Harer nama harer nama... .

Dr. Patel: These are, these are joking him, hearing this, you know. Tany aham... Uh. Not. What is that? What is the word of that sloka? [break]

Prabhupada: ...janma param janma vivasvatah, katham etad vijaniyam [Bg 4.4]. [break] ...May, June.

Dr. Patel: [laughs] Yes, May. Mirage in May and also in June. They want to report the... May, June, he has... [break]

Prabhupada: The interpreters do like that.

Dr. Patel: May and June.

Prabhupada: May and June.

Dr. Patel: You see?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: You were born in June?

Prabhupada: No.

Dr. Patel: No, which one? Fourth, June... And I was born in May, like that. [break]

Prabhupada: ...Canakya-sloka. The Canakya-sloka has panditanam gunah sarve murkha dosair hi kevalam. [Hindi] Now we used to make meaning like this, "A pandita, he is qualified. The only defect is that he's a mudha..., a murkha, dosa, only dosa."

Dr. Patel: No, Sanskrit, the, you... Some of the slokas are so... That there is one sloka: kesavam patitam drstva pandavah sa nirvarah, kaurava ha rudann iti ha ha kesavam ke... Means water in the water. Sa means that body. That way it is right. But how can Kesava be, rather, falling and Pandavas would be sa nirvarah? Some reason. [break]

Ambarisa: ...was a... Did he have some particular pastimes?

Prabhupada: [aside:] Hare Krsna. [Hindi]

[break] Another rascal you told.

Indian man (1): Yes. Correct, correct.

Dr. Patel: Condemn. [break] ...convert these rascals.

Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness movement.

Dr. Patel: [Hindi] Nothing to do, and no, no... [break] ...prana, dharma...

Prabhupada: He's no longer existing.

Dr. Patel: Government is not existing even by [indistinct] resident. No, not by... [break]

Prabhupada: There is no...

[break] They chant very [indistinct]. Yes. Father, mother is sophisticated. [sound of children talking in Gujarati] Hare Krsna.

Children: Hare Krsna! Haribol!

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. Everywhere [indistinct], but their father will not say. Harer nama.

[break] We shall wait. [end]