Room Conversation with Father Bernard – July 16, 1973, London
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730716R2.LON
Room Conversation with Father Bernard
- July 16, 1973, London 730716R2-LONDON [164:33 Minutes] CDM_115-1
Prabhupada: I am very glad to see you.
Father Bernard [speaks softly throughout]: Thank you.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Revatinandana: So, this is, name is Bernard and he was the… He lived in our temple in Edinburgh.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: He lived in our temple in Edinburgh last summer. He was the treasurer there for a while. Before that he was 23 years…
Prabhupada: Do you want another pad?
Father Bernard: No, this is fine.
Prabhupada: Ah, that's all right.
Father Bernard: It's my problem.
Revatinandana: Before that he was 20, 23 years, right? In a Cistercian Catholic Monastery. He, they kept silence, and they are vegetarian and he worked there in, in the Monastery agricultural work for 23 years. Then somehow or other he left there and shortly after he left, he joined with us last summer and he went away again. And he was staying in Leeds for a while now his, has some trouble with his legs. So, he has left his job and…
Prabhupada: What is his job?
Revatinandana: …visiting us.
Father Bernard: Osteoporitis [osteoporosis] Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: And what is this?
Father Bernard: It's a disease of the bone. And they have cleaned it five times.
Prabhupada: Oh, well was there any accident?
Father Bernard: No, it just came four years ago.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Father Bernard: And…
Prabhupada: Due to rheumatism?
Father Bernard: I have to be very careful rheumatism comes into it in damp weathers.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Father Bernard: I so, often sit and fidget because it goes into cramp you know, and I have to keep moving it. It's not…
Prabhupada: So, if you feel uncomfortable, you can give him a chair.
Father Bernard: No.
Revatinandana: Do you want a chair?
Father Bernard: No thank you, no. [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: Also, he is, in his, he was raised on a farm in Ireland. And he is expert in taking care of cows. So maybe he has come just today along with the cows. So perhaps [chuckles] maybe something there.
Prabhupada: Associate of Krsna. Krsna also tents cows: surabhir abhipalayantam. Krsna's description in the Brahma-samhita is there:
Surabhi cows. Krsna is very fond of cows. Abhipalayantam; tending the cows. Surabhir abhipalayantam. Laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam and He is served by many thousands of goddess of fortune. The gopis, Laksmi, Laksmi means "goddess of fortune." Laksmi-sahasra-sata, sahasra means "cow." And sata-hundred, that means many number. Laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam, sambhrama. Sambhrama means "with great respect."
Here in this material world we worship Laksmi, goddess of fortune to get some opulence and that also, that Laksmi does not stay very long. Just like this house belonged to some Lord family. Laksmi, but now it does not belong to that man. It has, it is transferred to somebody else therefore Laksmi's another name is Cancala-restless. Today the riches are with me, tomorrow with you, next day with him. It does not remain, in another place it is described just like lightning. Lightning in this cloud, and immediately this cloud, again this cloud. Like this. Cancala, this is called cancala-restless. Does not remain in one place permanently. But so far Krsna is concerned not only they remain there permanently but with great respect, for Krsna. They are always anxious that Krsna may not give us up. Laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam. In this material world Laksmi, goddess of fortune is worshipped even by Brahma and what to speak of ordinary living entities. But in the spiritual world Laksmi serves the Supreme Personality of Godhead, with all respect.
There are many such narration in the Srimad-Bhagavatam so we, accept this Absolute Truth in His personal feature. What is your understanding of the Absolute Truth? I am asking you because you are a priest. Therefore, I am asking.
Father Bernard: Well, I mean, The Absolute Truth is God Himself.
Prabhupada: Yes. But is He a personal or not?
Father Bernard: He is a person.
Prabhupada: That's nice.
Father Bernard: Oh, He is a person.
Prabhupada: That's nice. Yes, He is a person. He is a person but not a person like us.
Father Bernard: Oh no.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Bernard: He is infinite, and we are finite.
Prabhupada: Yes that's, thank you. Very good this is the understanding. He has got infinite power, opulence:
aisvaryasya samagrasya
viryasya yasasaḥ sriyaḥ jnana-vairagyayos caiva sannam iti bhagan gana [Visnu Purana 6.5.47] Bhagavan, bhaga means "the six kinds of opulences."Aisvaryasya samagrasya, He is the proprietor of all the riches that exist. Similarly, all strength, all beauty, all reputation. All renouncement, all knowledge-everything complete. He has no, nothing lacking-pūrnam.
pūrnam idam pūrnam adaḥ
pūrnat pūrnam udacyate pūrnasya pūrnam adaya pūrnam evavasisyate He is so perfect and complete, even the whole thing is taken from you… Him. Still, He is complete. He never deteriorates, abhayakaya [?]-indestructible; unfinishable-this is God. His energies are unfinishable. He is not in want of anything, complete. Atmarama-complete in Himself. He doesn't require anyone's help. So, we worship Krsna. He does not require our service, He is complete. But he is so kind that even we offer our service, very insignificant in His unlimited relationship. A still because a devotee offers something in faith and love, He accepts it. That is His position; He is not in want.
So, this is our Vedic conception of God pūrnam, in all opulences and He is the origin of everything. Because He has got everything, riches, strength, reputation, knowledge, beauty, renouncement, everything, so he is the store of everything, complete. And we are fragmental part and parcel of God. Therefore, we have got also these opulences. Exactly like the drop of water of the ocean, it has got all the chemical properties of the ocean but very minute quantity. It is not lacking all the qualities, chemical you can test a drop of ocean water. Immediately salty. So, we can understand the ocean is salt. And if we further analyse chemically the properties, so the same properties are there in the ocean and the same properties are there in the drop. But very minute quantity. And the ocean has got unlimited quantity that is the difference. So, God, we can understand what is God by studying one living entity because the same thing is there it is only sample, small sample. So whatever propensities we have got God must have got. Because we are fragmental portion. So, to understand the quality of God is also not very difficult. Just like little sample testing one can understand the whole thing. Similarly, by testing the propensities of the living entity one can understand the propensities of God also. But He is unlimited, but we can understand these things are there in God.
So, as we are personal, we have got personal individual propensities, everyone wants to keep his individuality. So similarly, God is also individual person. Therefore Bhagavata [1.1.1] says that: janmady asya yataḥ-Absolute Truth is that which is the source of everything. Hm. But He is abhijnaḥ-cognizant. Because there are two things: we observe matter and living entities. Living entities are cognizant, they have knowledge. Matter has no knowledge, or not developed knowledge. So, God cannot be like matter, He must be like the living being-abhijnaḥ. He knows everything, He knows everything, and He is situated in everyone's heart:
So, He is guiding us, we are not accepting His guidance. Therefore, we are suffering. This is our position. You have read Bhagavad-gita?
Father Bernard: A little of it Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Father Bernard: And I read another book [indistinct].
Revatinandana: The Nectar of Devotion. Īsopanisad's.
Father Bernard: Īsopanisad's no, no.
Devotee: Teachings of Lord Caitanya?
Father Bernard: Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Prabhupada: Oh!
Father Bernard: That's the one I was reading. I used to read that quite a lot.
Prabhupada: Hm. So why you left our association, what is the difficulty?
Father Bernard: I don't know, I think you know I had just come out of the church and more or less rushed into it. Do you know? And I think I would have been better if we had done it steadily you know. And it has probably worked out better now this way [indistinct] things have slowly and come to full realization of it you know.
Prabhupada: What difference you find?
Father Bernard: Sorry?
Prabhupada: What difference you find between church, your church…
Father Bernard: Oh, I find there is lots of differences but lots of the basic teachings are the same you know that God is one. And He is infinite, and we are finite. He is like the source of all truth…
Prabhupada: Yes,
Father Bernard: And we are just small copies of God, like, replicas of God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Bernard: And He doesn't need us, but we need Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's nice.
Father Bernard: He can do quite well without us, but we can't live without Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. That, we are dependent.
Father Bernard: When we get down to the basics…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Father Bernard: When you get down to the basics you know the two…
Prabhupada: Bikes? What is that?
Father Bernard: Basics
Revatinandana: Basics.
Prabhupada: Basics. Yes. Yes. So, Christianity in our philosophy we can very well cooperate.
Father Bernard: Indeed yes.
Prabhupada: But the only difficulty is whether you agree also or not. That in our opinion the Christians are not following strictly the Christian doctrines.
Father Bernard: No, they have broken away. They have 400 and something different little branches and everyone says, "I am right" and no one knows. [indistinct]
Prabhupada: And basically, Christian religion it does not allow killing. "Thou shall not kill."
Father Bernard: That's right.
Prabhupada: But these people are killing.
Father Bernard: Indeed yes.
Prabhupada: So, if they strictly follow the 10 Commandments of Lord Jesus Christ, that can be a very good renaissance of the world.
Father Bernard: Indeed, it can.
Prabhupada: Along with these cooperation with Krsna consciousness. Combined together we can turn the whole situation of the world. Unfortunately, they will not…
Father Bernard: Well unfortunately most of the bishops in the higherarchy of the Church. I mean they are in it for power, it's a [indistinct], it's a good job for a lot of them. There's lots of money, they have big cars to drive around in. So, for them it is more a job than a vocation. I've done this a lot with priests myself you know. Over the past few years, I was in charge of a parish here in London.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Father Bernard: And I found for lots of them, it was a job, and they were all looking for their day off. They had one day off a week. You know. They were priests for six days and they were something else for the other day. And it was just a job, and some livings had a better salary than the other. And they were all looking you know to go to the good livings where the money was. And for the most importance but to come down to the Christianity side where they are very good. They could stand up in the pulpit preach but probably 50% of them didn't believe what they were preaching. And very few of them lived up to it. You know I had an assistant here in Camden Town when I was parish priest of Camden Town. He was known, I mean his first port of call was the pub. The Abbey Tavern for a pint of bitter.
Revatinandana: Bitter means beer.
Father Bernard: It's a kind of beer and he was well known in there. He would come in and "what are you having father? Your usual?" And he was my assistant. And it was probably through him that I first you know got doubts about the church and got really restless. And it was shortly after that I went up to him and I don't know why I went to him, and you know one day. I just went to him, and I met one of the devotees and ended up at the temple. And I rather think I've rushed into it, do you know?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Father Bernard: Knew nothing but just charged in…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Father Bernard: And I think I should have waited you know.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Father Bernard: Took [indistinct] to be a setting up being so impulsive.
Prabhupada: So, you try to convince him of our philosophy more and more.
Revatinandana: I used to talk to him up in Edinburgh. Yeah.
Father Bernard: And there's another thing I find very difficult. I like to chant japa. I'm much happier, Kisora will tell you, to wander off and sit in a field by myself. I can really concentrate…
Prabhupada: What is that?
Revatinandana: He says, he feels more comfortable chanting japa when he is by himself. He wants to go off somewhere.
Father Bernard: I can't do it…
Prabhupada: Well, you can do that.
Father Bernard: You know what I mean with a… Kisora will know that because I was always lost.
Prabhupada: No, you can chant alone also. But this chanting alone is meant for advanced devotees. Ordinary neophyte devotees if they are allowed to chant alone, they will think of so many other things. They cannot concentrate.
Father Bernard: I find the opposite I can't concentrate in a…
Prabhupada: [laughs]
Father Bernard: You know [indistinct]…
Prabhupada: Therefore… A neophyte devotee is advised for preaching. Preaching is very good engagement; he has the opportunity of meeting many people. Talking about Krsna, that is a good opportunity, that is also chanting, preaching is also chanting. When you talk of Krsna, that is also chanting. So those who are not very advanced they should first of all try to preach. Talk of Krsna, that is also chanting: sravanamkirtanam visnoḥ , kirtanam. Kirtanammeans "describing, narrating." Hare Krsna, Hare K… This is also kirtana and if you describe just like the Bhagavata, Sukadeva Gosvami describes about Krsna, this is also chanting. That is accepted this chanting: sri-visnoḥsravane pariksid abhavad vaiyasakiḥ kirtane [Cc. Madhya 22.136]. This word is used kirtana, he narrated about Krsna. Janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnaḥ svarat [SB. 1.1.1]. So many things, describing. Describing the Absolute Truth in His various features.
At the end, there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, there are 12 Cantos. So, nine Cantos have been devoted for understanding the impersonal and localised aspect of the Absolute Truth-Brahma[n] and Paramatma. And from the tenth Canto Vyasadeva describes about the personal feature. And the personal feature is, in the tenth Canto is therefore description of the face, whether smiling. The first and second Canto are considered to be the lotus feet of the Lord. The third and fourth Canto this part, and the fifth Canto this part, sixth Canto this part. In this way nine Cantos have being devoted for understanding the impersonal…
And just like in the beginning the Bhagavata describes janmady asya yataḥ. Although in the beginning Vyasadeva has offered his obeisances: om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. But when he describes, he describes impersonally; janmady asya yataḥ-the Absolute Truth is that from which everything emanates. But immediately says janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas ca, arthesv. Anvayat-directly or indirectly in all subject matter, He is abhijnaḥ. Abhijnaḥ means "quite conversant."Immediately He becomes person, as soon as this word is used abhijnaḥ-in full knowledge. Then immediately He becomes… In the beginning janmady asya yataḥ; the original source of everything. But immediately he begins abhijnaḥ, abhijnaḥ means "cognizant," He knows everything.
Just like I claim, this is my body. But I am not abhijnaḥ, I do not know all the details of my body, I do not know. There are a big machine within my body, the heart, the stomach, how they are acting? Of course, when we study anatomic philosophy, physiology we understand theoretically something. But actually, you do not know how it is acting. We take some solid food, and it goes to the stomach and immediately it is divided into so many parts. It becomes digested and there are many secretion formed and it goes to the heart it becomes red and then again distributed as blood and then some person it becomes stool, and some person it becomes urine, and so many things. But we do not know, what is being done, every day we have got this experience. And as soon as there is some miss-adjustment immediately we fall sick. Things do not go nicely. How then I am claiming this is my body?
So, our knowledge is not perfect, we are not abhijnaḥ. But God's creation is so perfect He knows everything; abhijnaḥ. This word is used there. Ah, indirectly and directly. Directly just like we know we are eating something and there is some metabolic action going on and we are feeling strong-this is direct. But indirectly how it is being done we do not know. That we do not, theoretical some knowledge. So, it is being done by some inconceivable, we cannot understand it, we cannot explain it. We explained some theoretically and not very perfectly. But it is being done. Therefore, it is to be understood that I have got some inner energy which I do not know myself. Sometimes I get perspiration how the perspiration is coming, is being manufactured. Sometimes perspiration is so much that if we smear like this it comes, half an hour's water. But how this water came into existence? But it is factual, and it is manufactured within my body by some inconceivable energy. Therefore, it is to be concluded I have got some inconceivable energy. You cannot deny it.
So, I am a little portion of God, I have got inconceivable energy. How much inconceivable energy is there in stock of the unlimited? So, if I say the whole Pacific Ocean is the perspiration of God, what is the wrong there? How you can refute? This argument. Therefore, when we say God created, where is the wrong? How the scientists will explain where from the ocean came into existence? And if I say it has come from the perspiration of God, what is the wrong? If I am a little portion of God, I can create one ounce of salty water, perspiration. And God who is unlimited why He cannot create millions of oceans like this? And He knows how to do it-abhijnaḥ. He knows how to do it. I do not know, although it is coming. That is the difference between God and me.
Revatinandana: I am producing the water, but I don't know how it…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Bernard: That's right.
Revatinandana: He is producing, and He does know.
Prabhupada: He knows.
Father Bernard: He knows.
Prabhupada: He knows heartbeats, the heart. So, we have to understand God like that. And this science is Srimad-Bhagavatam-and Bhagavad-gita. So, it is not sectarian, it is science of God. Actually, if the Christian people, they are serious about God they should read all this literature. They should not be biased. Suppose if you are after for knowledge, you cannot be biased that I shall stick to this educational institution, not to that. Then you cannot make advancement. Just like sometimes Indian students they come to your country for higher advanced, knowledge. So, everyone goes. Similarly, if for advanced knowledge in spiritual knowledge if other people belong to other religion, they come to India or to this…, Vedic culture. What is the harm? Why they should be so, what is called? Biased.
Revatinandana: Or prejudiced.
Prabhupada: Prejudiced. No, it is no religion. This cooperation should be done now, to save the world.
Father Bernard: That's right.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, it is doomed. No prejudiced opinion, for knowledge sake they should cooperate. If there is more information in the Vedic culture that is a fact. Everyone admits. Everyone who is actually after knowledge, they admit. So now this prejudiced should be given up. People are deteriorating in their spiritual culture. I've seen in London nobody goes to churches; they are so many remnant churches. Why?
Father Bernard: We abandoned them.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Bernard: And many of them are redundant.
Prabhupada: Why? In this Christian country and so many millions of pounds are spent for constructing the churches, why they should be vacant? Because people are losing interest.
Father Bernard: Yes.
Prabhupada: This is not good. If they, a human being loses interest in religion he becomes animal. Dharmena hinaḥ pasubhiḥ samanaḥ [Hitopadesa 25]. Because the animals have no religion, so if the human being deteriorate to that position without religion, he is no better than animal.
Father Bernard: That's it.
Prabhupada: So how you can be happy in the animal societies? That is not possible. So, we should take note of this deterioration and those who are responsible for guiding people they must cooperate with this Krsna consciousness movement. That is [indistinct].
It is not a sentimental religious movement; it is a science. Everyone should come forward, if anyone wants really welfare of the human society. All of the nations or of the people, whatever you say. But our propaganda is not to a particular nation or community but to the human society. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said:
bharata-bhūmite manusya janma haila yara
janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara He advises, anyone who has taken birth in India because in India these things are available. Not only available they are made very easy for understanding by the acarya's. Just like Ramanujacarya, Madhavacarya, all big big acarya's. So let us state Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They have made things easy. The same thing but process made very easy. They say Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends, simply chant Hare Krsna. Hare nama, Hare…, this is also quoted from sastra, not that He has manufactured. This is recommended in the sastra.
harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam
kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva gatir anyatha And Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is so liberal, He says God is unlimited, so He has got unlimited names also. But the name must be of God, just like what, we have got a list of names of God. Some of them, just like Krsna, Govinda, Narayana, Visnu, Janardana, Madhava, Madhusūdana, like so many names. So Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that you chant the name of God which ever you like, which ever you like, which ever name…
Father Bernard: Which ever name you like?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Bernard: He'll answer…
Prabhupada: So, if you have got a name of God…
Father Bernard: A name of God…
Prabhupada: You can chant that also. What is the name of God in Christian science… Christian?…
Father Bernard: Well, I suppose Jesus, really.
Prabhupada: Jesus is the son of God.
Father Bernard: Jesus is the son of God, but he is-in Christianity he is also God. There are three persons in the one God, you see. The father, the son and the Holy Spirit all… It's three different persons they are all the one God. It's really, it's just God.
Prabhupada: Now what is the actual name of God in Christian.
Devotee 2: Jehovah.
Father Bernard: Jehovah, no that is in the Jewish. It comes in the old Testament.
Revatinandana: Well in the old Testament…
Father Bernard: That's the old Testament. You see?
Revatinandana: In the old Testament the names are Jehovah, Yahweh…
Father Bernard: Yahweh is the same.
Revatinandana: Yahweh is another one in the Bible, in the old Testament.
Prabhupada: Javin?
Revatinandana: Yahweh, you know Javin Yahweh…
Father Bernard: Jehovah they are in the old Testament [indistinct] just God. We have no real name-just God.
Prabhupada: That is the point [chuckles] I'm…
Father Bernard: He's just God, I mean in Jesus it's referred to as God he is one of the persons in the Godhead. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.
Prabhupada: No.
Revatinandana: So, they have this, Catholic doctrine.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: Is that God is one God…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: But he is simultaneously three persons, the father who is God, the son who is Jesus…
Father Bernard: He's God.
Revatinandana: And Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Revatinandana: [sighs]
Father Bernard: It's the…
Prabhupada: There is living entity…
Father Bernard: It's the breath of God which came down from heaven at Pentecost.
Prabhupada: Living entities.
Revatinandana: Well, yes and…
Father Bernard: It is an entity, the living breath of God.
Revatinandana: Exact, exactly when Christ departed he said he would send the Holy Spirit to guide his disciples and that Holy Spirit was said to descend upon them 40 days later. A time that is called Pentecost, and they were to be guided from inside by the Holy Spirit.
Prabhupada: Therefore, this spirit means Paramatma?
Revatinandana: [chuckles] that is my understanding. That it would be Paramatma.
Prabhupada: Hm. So, the, we have the conception Paramatma also. And God so what is the position of the living entity?
Revatinandana: There is some, disagreement…
Prabhupada: There is no definite…
Revatinandana: There is no, there is no…
Father Bernard: Nothing definite really, it's…
Prabhupada: That is imperfect.
Father Bernard: You see when you have gone to that line you start coming to what is called…
Prabhupada: We have got clear conception.
Father Bernard: You know they. Just God. Really.
Prabhupada: No just like I say, I explain just now.
Father Bernard: Yes.
Prabhupada: Living entity is fragmental portion of God the example is that the drop of ocean water. That is the position of the living entity.
Father Bernard: Yes, each person is a living entity.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Father Bernard: In God. And they are fashioned…
Prabhupada: Same here, everything is in God…
Father Bernard: And they are made in the image of God.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Father Bernard: Each person is made in the image of God.
Prabhupada: Hm. So, each person means…
Father Bernard: Also, each person has a free will. They can accept God or reject Him.
Prabhupada: Yes. That we [indistinct]
Father Bernard: It's up to them. God doesn't need them.
Revatinandana: See God has also got a free will.
Father Bernard: That's it.
Revatinandana: Therefore, those made in the image of God they must also have free will.
Father Bernard: Yes.
Prabhupada: But minute, little.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Dependent on the free will of God.
Father Bernard: That's right.
Prabhupada: I wish to do something but unless it is sanctioned by God, I cannot do it.
Father Bernard: Yeah.
Prabhupada: This is my position. Just like I want to start some business. But I have to take licence from the government. I cannot start immediately, whimsically.
Father Bernard: No.
Prabhupada: I must take sanctioned by the government. Then I can start. Similarly, that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: mattaḥ smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. Anu, anu, anumanta. Sanction is given by God. Paramatma. We are wanting to do something, the Paramatma is there within my heart. Unless He sanctions, I cannot do it. But because I have got little freedom, even I want to do something against the sanction, he gives sanction "all right you can do it what can be done? You are persistent" and that is our, my condition. That is illusion. That we want to do against the sanction. God is unwillingly giving, without His sanction I cannot. But God is unwillingly give me sanction. "All right, you'll suffer what can I do?" I say that "don't do this you will suffer" but if you are insistent, you are insisting repeatedly then you can do, what can I do?
Devotee: But He is not responsible?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee: He is not responsible.
Prabhupada: He is not responsible.
Father Bernard: No.
Prabhupada: He is not responsible, he is responsible. Because God says "you don't do it, you will suffer." But he persists, "no I shall do it." So, when he is persistent God says "all right do it at your risk." Just like there is law, government. The will. Don't do this-law. But if I do it that is at my risk. Then you are punishable. This is going on. But that is the position of the materialistic person. They are doing things against the will. Just like it is clear declaration in the Bible "though shalt not kill." And they are killing against the…
Father Bernard: Will of God.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore, they must suffer.
Father Bernard: Hmm.
Prabhupada: They must suffer! But they do not understand this simple thing. And still, they are declaring Christian. What kind of Christian? I do not know. They are doing against the principle of Christian, Christianity. And they are suffering, and still, they will not give it up. I do not know why the Christian priests also do not teach them that why you're doing against the order of Lord Jesus Christ, against Bible. I do not know why they are sleeping. Am I right or not?
Father Bernard: Oh, you are dead right… You're right yes.
Prabhupada: So, they have taken charge, they are paid for they have so many churches, they have so many priestly order.
Father Bernard: That's right.
Prabhupada: The Pope is there. Why they are not stopping this? What is the answer?
Father Bernard: Charlatans.
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Father Bernard: Each one of them.
Revatinandana: Lacking knowledge.
Father Bernard: Yes.
Prabhupada: You, see? Wilfully neglecting, wilfully. Otherwise Christianism is as good as Vaisnavaism.
Father Bernard: Yes, but unfortunately the Catholic Church you see. More or less ignores the Old Testament. And it is in the Old Testament, you will find [indistinct]
Prabhupada: No, it is in the New Testament, the Bible also.
Revatinandana: He is saying that the Catholic Church…
Prabhupada: Hah.
Revatinandana: Ignores…
Prabhupada: Hah.
Revatinandana: The Old Testament. Where most of the laws and rules are given.
Prabhupada: So why they should ignore?
Father Bernard: You see Christ when he [indistinct]…
Prabhupada: If it is actually fact, if it is truth. Why they should ignore?
Father Bernard: You see…
Revatinandana: Christ himself said I did not come to deny the law…
Father Bernard: Ah yes…
Revatinandana: I came to fulfil the law.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Revatinandana: But they are neglecting the law. [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Just see, so therefore they are disobeying Christ. Disobeying Christ.
Father Bernard: [indistinct] there is another law, I give you, that you love one another.
Revatinandana: But not the animals.
Father Bernard: No.
Revatinandana: Them we don't love. We kill them.
Father Bernard: No, and the Catholic Church you know has… I wouldn't think…
Prabhupada: That is not love.
Father Bernard: Many, many Catholics who [indistinct]…
Prabhupada: Our, our designation of sadhu-saintly person.
Father Bernard: Yes.
Father Bernard: Oh yes.
Prabhupada: Suhrdam sarva-bhūtanam, not that he is friend of the humankind…
Father Bernard: No.
Prabhupada: Not of the animals. No. He is not a sadhu. He is not a saintly person. Saintly person, the description is given in the sastra. Titiksavaḥ-very tolerant [SB. 3.25.21]. Because the world is full of sinful activities and he has to live as a saintly person, so he has to tolerate so many things. And he will meet so many opposing elements, therefore he has to become tolerant; titiksavaḥ. Karunikaḥ-at the same time very kind. He has to preach God consciousness; he is kind to everyone. They are suffering without God consciousness. Therefore, toleration and kindness. Titiksavaḥ karunikaḥ, oh why they are tolerant and karunikaḥ? Suhrdam sarva-bhūtanam. He is friend of all living entities. It doesn't… A, a saintly person will not, cannot see that even a worm is fasting. He must be given food. What to speak of killing.
Revatinandana: So, they will argue that Christ was saintly person and he used to eat fishes.
Father Bernard: Yes.
Revatinandana: You, see? Or used to eat meat. It mentions in the Bible.
Father Bernard: In the Bible that he'd…
Revatinandana: Christ would sometimes take from the ah…eat fishes.
Prabhupada: Then why, why he said "thou shalt not kill?"
Revatinandana: So, they have…
Prabhupada: That, the adjustment will be that when there is no other food. What can be done? That is another thing. But when there is so many other foodstuff why should one unnecessarily kill?
Father Bernard: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just like sometimes in war field. They use the horses or the dogs. It happens so, sometimes they ate stool. In the last war.
Father Bernard: Yes.
Prabhupada: But that does not mean that generally they should eat. When there is no other food, but human life is important. So, he has to eat something. If there is no other food. So, Christ might have done like this but that is not his opinion that you should kill and eat. And in another place, I understand that this vegetables are your meat. What is that?
Revatinandana: The grains are the… What is it? The fruits of the tree is…
Prabhupada: Ah!
Revatinandana: And the grains of the earth shall be your food.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: That is in the Genesis book of the old Testament of the Bible.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Father Bernard: That's at the very beginning.
Prabhupada: Hm. So that means if you adjust, if you have got fruits, you have got grains. Why should you eat meat? Just like we are eating, we are not starving. So, we are eating the grains, the milk, the fruits, the flower, very palatable dishes. So, we are not dying. Then come to rationalism, so why unnecessarily you should kill.
Revatinandana: They will say you're also killing the vegetables.
Prabhupada: That is another thing.
Revatinandana: But they will argue like that.
Prabhupada: Ah, but we are killing not for our own purpose. We are killing for Krsna, and it is actually not killing. It is actually not killing because when you take the grains, the plant is already dead.
Father Bernard: Yeah.
Prabhupada: You know that?
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, so it is not killing.
Revatinandana: They will say what about the carrots?
Prabhupada: Eh? [indistinct], but that is not kill.
Father Bernard: [indistinct]
Prabhupada: We take the carrots fruit, but the tree is there. It will produce again carrot.
Revatinandana: [chuckles] they pull them out…Ha.
Father Bernard: Yes, but it is already fully grown…
Revatinandana: They take them from the ground.
Prabhupada: No.
Father Bernard: It dies if you don't take it up; it's dead already. When it is fully grown.
Revatinandana: No, it is still alive.
Prabhupada: But, but the thing is. That, it is sanctioned…
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Krsna says patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg. 9.26]. So, we have to pluck it for Krsna-not for me.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: If there is sin, it is Krsna responsible, we are not responsible.
Revatinandana: So, the proper understanding is that, I can, I cannot kill but if the scripture says you may kill this…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: Then you may kill it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: For some purpose…
Prabhupada: That is your [indistinct]
Revatinandana: When the scripture ordains… Otherwise you cannot kill.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, you cannot kill.
Revatinandana: Ah…
Prabhupada: You must get sanction. Just like a man is killed by the order of the High Court Judge, otherwise, he cannot kill. He will be murdered. When there is order that this man should be killed, then can kill. You are not responsible for murdering if the commander says you kill so many other soldiers. You are not responsible but without that order if you kill a person then you are a murderer. Immediately you will be hanged. Life for life. So, if there is sanction, that is another thing but who is sanctioning this slaughterhouse? Where is the sanction? Either in the Bible or in the Old Testament that keep a slaughterhouse and go on killing. No. Then who will be responsible for this sinful activities? And who will suffer? But these rascals are there, so ignorant they are doing that. And nobody is checking them. This is the horrible condition of the society. That there is another commandment, thou shalt not provoke others wife or something like that.
Devotee: Yes
Father Bernard: [indistinct]
Revatinandana: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife. … [indistinct]
Prabhupada: And this going on. This is going on with freedom, yes you can mix with others wife and pollute her and do everything. So how it is possible? I, I don't blame the Christian people, the whole world is going like that. So how they can be happy, they want peace, they want prosperity, they want no war, how it is possible? It is not possible. This message must be broadcast; that you are so sinful you cannot be happy. Cannot be happy. Now stop this sinful activities therefore our propaganda is-no illicit sex. No meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication. These four pillars contains all sins. If you stop this your sinful life is finished. And in the Bhagavad-gita it is said: yesam anta-gatam papam . Ah, find out this verse.
yesam anta-gatam papam
jananam punya-karmanam te dvandva-moha-nirmukta bhajante mam drḍha-vrataḥ [Bg. 7.28] Why He is saying? This is statement in the Bhagavad-gita, who can become real devotee of God. That is stated.
Srutakirti: Read the translation?
Prabhupada: No, you read the verse.
Srutakirti:
yesam tv anta-gatam papamjananam punya-karmanam
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktabhajante mam drḍha-vrataḥ [Bg. 7.28] "Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination."
Prabhupada: This it, this is it. So those who are engaged in sinful activity, they cannot become devotee and without devotion nobody can understand what is God.
Find out this verse. Bhaktya. One can understand God by being purified as being engaged in devotional service. Then He becomes revealed: sevonmukhe hi jihvadau, svayam eva… [Cc. Madhya 17.136], so God is revealed. It is not a calculation, here is God. Material calculation. He reveals. Yes, now you can see Me. Revelation. It is not by mathematical calculation. Ah, what is that?
Srutakirti: Bhaktya mam abhijanati…
Prabhupada: Hah.
Srutakirti:
Prabhupada: Hm.
Srutakirti: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."
Prabhupada: This is. First of all, one has to become sinless.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then he can understand, he can engage himself in devotional service and when he engages himself in devotional service. Then he understands what is God, then he is admitted in the spiritual kingdom. Simple thing. Not that by force sputnik we can enter in the kingdom of God. That is not possible. You must be qualified. So, we are preaching this science of God, it is not a sectarian religion. Religion is a kind of faith. So, I believe in this, I believe in that. But it is a science, you may believe or not believe, the science is science, fact is fact.
Revatinandana: So many times, they, like when I was growing up I, I was trained in the Catholic Sunday school. Catechism class. And they used to teach us about, something about God, about the soul and like that. And I would try to understand it, I was attracted, you know. But there was so many things that I was told that I had to accept as a mystery. Just like for example that the father is there, and the son is there. But they are both one person.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: I would say how is that. How is the son and the father both one person? I couldn't understand.
Prabhupada: And they could not explain?
Revatinandana: No, and then when you ask-that is a mystery. A mystery means you have to accept it simply on faith.
Prabhupada: No [indistinct]
Revatinandana: But it does not satisfy the intelligence.
Prabhupada: That is explanation, and the same explanation. Just like the drop of ocean water-is the same qualitatively but quantitatively it is different. This is the explanation. I am the son of God therefore all the qualities of God-is there. I am one. Hm. Just like in the ordinary case, the son has got also a body, two hands, two legs, one head.
Revatinandana: They don't believe it.
Prabhupada: No, in that way he is equal with the Father.
Revatinandana: Oh, the son, oh when you… There is two words son and the sun.
Prabhupada: No no not sun. I'm speaking of the son.
Revatinandana: [chuckles] yeah.
Prabhupada: How do you explain.
Revatinandana: All right. Hm.
Prabhupada: The father and son. But equality, the father has got two hands and the son has got two hands. Everything bodily expression, even in color, even the facial expression. Hm. But the father is not the son. When the mother comes the relation is different.
Revatinandana: Hm.
Prabhupada: So simultaneously one and different. That is our philosophy-acintya-bhedabheda. One and different. This is also there, but they cannot explain. Because they have no such knowledge, but the fact is there.
Revatinandana: Also, with the interest of the father is there and the son…
Prabhupada: [indistinct]
Revatinandana: He acts according to that interest.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: That is another kind of oneness.
Prabhupada: Yes, oneness. He does not disagree with the interest of the father. The Father wants that all living entities should come back to Him. And He is executing the same mission, come back through Me, back to home back to Godhead.
Revatinandana: But then the question comes how can you say that the name of the son is the same as the name of the Father? They are related…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: Still, they are lacking a name for the Father.
Prabhupada: That, then they, then the charge will be that you do not know the name of the Father.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: That is, it. There is name of the Father, but you do not know.
Revatinandana: Even in the Old Testament there is name for the Father.
Prabhupada: That's it.
Revatinandana: But he says they don't accept it.
Prabhupada: They don't, they don't accept, or you do not know. If you don't accept that means you do not know also.
Revatinandana: And also, Christ prays: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name!"
Prabhupada: That's it! But they do not know the name.
Revatinandana: They don't do it [chuckles] they don't hallow the name of the Father.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Revatinandana: And when we do it, they say it is pagan. [chuckles]
Prabhupada: [laughs] how much ignorant they are.
Father Bernard: You see most of the prayers will begin, "oh God" or "almighty God" but it is just God He has no…
Revatinandana: It is a definition.
Father Bernard: Yes, it is just no name [indistinct]
Prabhupada: If God is a person, He must have… Just like we have got the name Krsna. We have got many names.
Father Bernard: That's right, that's one of His names.
Prabhupada: But one of the name is Krsna, Krsna means "all attractive." All attractive. So, God must be all attractive. God should not be attractive for you and not for me. That is not God.
Father Bernard: Attractive for all.
Prabhupada: He must be all attractive, that is His perfectness. Krsna. Actually, Krsna is all attractive when Krsna was present on this earth. He acted in so many ways; He is all attractive. Somebody wanted to fight with Him and He could fight very nicely, so that the opposite party was killed. And somebody wanted to love Him, and that was a perfect. Somebody wanted to love Him as son, and that is perfect. As friend that is perfect and that is all attractive. There are reciprocation of different humors, 12 humors. Akhila-rasamrta-sindhu. And Krsna: raso vai saḥ [Taittiriya Upanisad, 2.7.1]. He is the reservoir of all attractiveness. He can deal with everyone as He wants to do.
That is all attractive. Hm. If you wants to deal with Krsna as friend, He is all attractive. As lover, all attractive. As enemy, all attractive.
Revatinandana: Kamsa he was completely attracted. [laughs]
Prabhupada: Talk of, everyone [indistinct] attracted. Therefore, there is the fullness-Krsna that is explained by Jiva Gosvami. And the Vedas also. This is the [indistinct] of God-Krsna. And it is confirmed: krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB. 1.3.28]. There are many gods, God means controller, subordinate many. But Caitanya-caritamrta says that there are many gods, demigods, gods. Everyone is controller but Caitanya-caritamrta says according to the version of Bhagavata: ekala isvara krsna. The real God is Krsna. All others are saba bhrtya-they are all servants. All others they are servants, ekala isvara; isvara parama-krsna [Bs. 5.1]. In the Brahma-samhita it is said. Ah, the supreme Lord, there may be many lords but real Lord is Krsna. So, the Christians they do not know the real Lord is Krsna, the father of Jesus Christ. So, we, we are helping everyone every religion is searching after God. We are helping, here is God. Take it, and be happy.
Revatinandana: I'm noticing if a analogist situation between the time now and the time when Christ was appearing. At that time the established religious community was the Jewish faith. Christ was trying to force them to depart from the ritual and begin to actually love God.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: To serve God. And because they did not want to give up their material positions as priests etc. They became enemies of Christ defying that [indistinct]…
Prabhupada: You'll find that in: mūrkhaya upadesa hi prakopaya [Niti Sastra]. If you advise something to a rascal he will be angry. That is the psychology.
Revatinandana: Hm. Now today the, for example in the Bible predicts the second coming of the Christ. That at the time when devastation is near. That sometimes it says the Christ, sometimes it says the anointed one will come. And those who have got any sense they will follow him. At that time of danger. Right. So if he is coming and preaching love of God they should recognize. Right. But now the same followers of Christ have become the established religion attached to their material position. And when we preach love of God, in your service they are condemning us. Once they tried, once they invited me to a program, only to attack me. Not physically but they were laying for me with so many arguments. They all jumped up; you know. When I, after I had finished speaking and there was a big quarrel. And I told them they are hypocrites [chuckles] and I walked out and left the place you know. And ah, but in this way, this is the time…
Prabhupada: They are not after truth.
Revatinandana: No.
Prabhupada: Hah.
Revatinandana: They are protecting their position.
Prabhupada: That's all.
Revatinandana: I think the time and devastation of coming is here. The atomic bombs are there… Everything is there. It's a very dangerous time.
Prabhupada: They have already experienced so many wars…
Revatinandana: …So I was preaching love of God.
Prabhupada: But they are not incensed. Wars, epidemic, pestilence and the war is going on. So, what is the League of Nation? Simply war. War, war of exchange of words.
Revatinandana: Yes. So called United Nations they are all quarrelling.
Prabhupada: Disunited.
Revatinandana: Quarrelling constantly.
Prabhupada: That's all. A quarrelling society, that's all. Debating society. First of all, they started the League of Nations, after the first war. That failed.
Revatinandana: Hm.
Prabhupada: Again, they have started this United Nations, and this is also useless.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: So, without God consciousness everything is useless. That is stated in the Vedic literature ah:
bhagavad-bhakti-hinasya
jatiḥ japas tapaḥ kriyaḥ apranasyeva dehasya manḍanam loka-ranjanam [Cc. Madhya 19.75] If there is no God consciousness. The big nationality-jatiḥ. Or big, big achievement, big success. All these things are just like decoration of the dead body. Apranasyeva-a dead body means without life. So, we go on decorating it. So, what is the use? Loka-ranjanam-some people will say "oh it is very nicely decorated." But what is the use of decorating a lifeless body? It is simply a waste of money. You are living body if I give you nice dress it is utilized. But if your body is dead oh what is the use of decorating it is simply a waste of money. So, these modern civilization is decorating the dead body, that's all. And praising amongst themselves, "oh you are so big."
samstuta purusa pasuḥ
sva-viḍ-varahostra-kharai, samstuta purusa pasuḥ Anyone who is not God conscious he is an animal. So other animals are giving him vote. So, what is the… Animal is being elected by the votes of some other animals. So, what is the benefit? This is going on; the so-called democracy means one big animal. Just like Nixon, he is made president. Now they are accusing oh you are culprit you are so on and so on and so on. He's not leaving because he's animal. He has no feeling of insight that these people are insulting me, why shall I stick to this position? But he's not honest.
Revatinandana: They elect the big animal and…
Prabhupada: Yes. Big animal.
Revatinandana: And the big animal devours them.
Prabhupada: That's all.
Revatinandana: And they complain [laughs].
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes [chuckles], and they want such animal devouring.
Revatinandana: Yes [laughs].
Prabhupada: Yes. So, this is going on in very bad condition. Therefore, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says; kara para-upakara. Do good to others. How? By making your life perfect by understanding this Vedic literature.
bharata-bhūmite haila manusya-janma yara
janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara Revatinandana: Sometimes it seems to me that of all the classes of people in the society. The hypocrite is actually the lowest of all.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are disqualified in so many ways there is no end of the list of their disqualification. You see.
These are all described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. First of all, they are all bad-mandaḥ. Or slow. Generally, they are all bad men. Mandaḥ, sumanda-matayo, and even they pose to be religion, they have accepted something nonsense. Sumanda-matayo, they, that mal, that cult is not good. They will accept that. Just like this Ramakrishna Mission they say "you can eat whatever you like, you can do whatever you like." They will accept, "oh it is very nice there is no restriction." And as soon as we say "you cannot do this, you cannot do that." "Oh, this is very difficult." That this is the Gurumaharaja is doing.
Revatinandana: Yes
Prabhupada: You can do anything, nonsense.
Revatinandana: Well now, now he says, "No, you shouldn't do these things."
Prabhupada: But he…
Revatinandana: But still, they do it [laughs].
Prabhupada: [laughs] Because they have not the…
Revatinandana: They can't stop. [laughs]
Father Bernard: He is very strong in the Gita.
Prabhupada: Because he is a bad man, how he can stop? He is posing himself as God.
Devotee: Yes.
Prabhupada: So, he's the most rascal. First class rascal. Then how he can make others? If you are touchstone then you can make others gold. And if you are ordinary stone, how you can turn others gold?
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: That is his position.
Devotee: This…
Revatinandana: There was a place, there was…
Prabhupada: He's dull stone. Rascal. Otherwise, how he is posing himself I am God?
Revatinandana: There was a place quoted in their magazine. Somebody asked him they say…"Your disciples say you are God, eh. What do you say?" He said "well you may not see me as God. But they may see something" and at that time by saying that. "But my disciples may see something different than you." He was saying actually they are seeing that I am God, they are actually correct. So, therefore, I am God. That was the direct implication of his statement.
Prabhupada: But how…
Revatinandana: Other time he says, "I am only the humble servant of God."
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: But the implication of his statement is that he is God.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: [chuckles]
Prabhupada: Because they are seeing some fools are seeing him God. Therefore, he is God.
Revatinandana: [laughs] his disciples.
Prabhupada: His disciples, they are all perfect?
Revatinandana: No [laughs].
Prabhupada: Then? What is the value of their seeing?
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Seeing should be done; sastra-caksusa-one should see through the scriptures. Sastra-caksusa that is the injunction. Sastra. Ah, Krsna also has given reference to the sastra.
Find out. Yaḥ sastra, yaḥ sastra-vidhim utsrjya. So how it is to be accepted that his disciple's vision is perfect? They are ordinary men. And you are thinking yourself God by the vision of your-these rascals, disciples. You are so rascal. It must be supported by sastra, whether in the sastra you are mentioned as God. That is to be accepted. In sastra everything is mentioned there, in future there will be God's incarnation, Kalki. That is mentioned and his father's name, address and the place everything. So is your name, address, your father's name mentioned in the sastra? Then anyone can say I am God. And the people, followers they can say that these followers see me God. Therefore, I am God. Then what to speak of you maybe this can be said by anyone. So, if others say like that, then what is the difference between that God and you God? Then there are many gods. But what God is one. So many gods they are, there are already existing so what is your specific power? And what godly powers you have shown? We accept Krsna-God because He has shown His godly power. But what you have shown? Hm. Just sastra-vidhim utsrjya.
Revatinandana: Yeah [chuckles].
Srutakirti: Yaḥ sastra-vidhim utsrjya.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Srutakirti:
Prabhupada: No that is another.
Devotee 2: I asked one of their disciples, what is their source of knowledge…
Prabhupada: Don't talk with them they are all rascals. A gang of rascals.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: You don't waste your time. Let them [indistinct]
Revatinandana: See this is the point. They as hypocrite. I, I understand that in the Kali-yuga there is four. There are four pillars of religion: austerity, cleanliness, mercifulness, and truthfulness. Now at this time austerity is gone, cleanliness is gone, mercifulness is vanishing, there is a little truthfulness left.
Prabhupada: No there is no truthfulness.
Revatinandana: But we are appealing…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: To some sense of truth.
Prabhupada: Is that? Yaḥ sastra.
Srutakirti: Hm. It's y, e?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Srutakirti: What this y, e?
Prabhupada: Jara. [?]
Srutakirti: It's just this one [?]
Prabhupada: Y…
Srutakirti: Y, e?
Prabhupada: Y, a.
Srutakirti: Y, a.
Prabhupada: H. In the sixteenth chapter?
Devotee 2: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: I, I seem to recall you, you wrote that in the Bhagavata. That there is a slight trace of truthfulness, and we try to appeal to that truthful tendency.
Prabhupada: That truthfulness is chanting of the holy name of God. That is the only truth.
Revatinandana: And when a person is completely…
Prabhupada: That is the only concession to this age. Otherwise, it is all filled up with all sinful activities. This is the only concession if you chant the holy name of the:
He becomes liberated from all contamination. This is the only, otherwise it is an impossible…
Hm?
Srutakirti:
yaḥ sastra-vidhim utsrjya
vartate kama-karataḥ na sa siddhim avapnoti na sukham na param gatim [Bg 16.23] Prabhupada: Hm.
Srutakirti: "But he who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination."
Prabhupada: That's it. If you do not accept the injunction of the sastra, just like the same thing. Thou shalt not kill, why you should kill? Then you'll get never perfection. Na siddhim savapnoti-there is no question of becoming perfect Christian. Na sukham-and there cannot be any happiness and what to speak of going back to home, back to Godhead? This [indistinct]. I do not know why people; they do not take very seriously the injunction of the sastra. And he says that he has no basic principle of sastra.
Revatinandana: No, he says that the only… That, this one time he said "they are dead books."
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: One time he said, "they are dead books."
Prabhupada: Dead books?
Revatinandana: Dead books, yeah.
Prabhupada: So, dead books, so what is the benefit of dead books?
Revatinandana: He says, "therefore there is no benefit of dead books."
Prabhupada: Ah.
Revatinandana: So, therefore, you don't need these books.
Prabhupada: So, then you are your authority.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Ah, so then everyone can say I am, I am my own authority. So where is the defects? How you can become God? Anyone can say "I am authority," I say "I am God." He said "I am God" then what kind of god you are?
Revatinandana: The men…
Prabhupada: Anyone can say.
Revatinandana: The man with the best publicity campaign.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: The man with the best publicity campaign then he becomes God [chuckles].
Prabhupada: This is another. That is another. Publicity, by publicity there are so many rascal medicine is sold. But that is meant that is genuine medicine. No doctor will prescribe, they don't. Any medicine which is publicly advertised, no qualified doctor will prescribe that medicine. It is a law. A bona-fide registered medical practitioner will never prescribe that.
Revatinandana: The question of thinking about this matter of truthfulness is something like this.
Prabhupada: No truthfulness is there, just like we say chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra. This is truthfulness. Chant the holy name of God. If you have got any name of your God chant, we say like that. We don't say that you have to chant Krsna. But if you are actually really have got the name of God then you chant it. That is our program, namnam akari bahudha [Cc. Antya 20.16]. So, there are, God is unlimited there must be unlimited names also. Just like we have got thousands and thousands of names.
So, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that: harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam . He does not see others name, but God's name. So, if you are confident that this is God's name chant it. But if you say I do not know actually whether it is God's name or somebody's name. Then how you can chant it? You have no actual knowledge of God's name, therefore take this name-Krsna. What is the harm? God has many names this is also name, so many thousands they are acting. Why don't you take it? If you have no definite understanding of God's name. That is our request. If you have, chant that name. If you haven't got, chant this name. What is the objection?
This is accepted by the sastra. By all Vedic literature, all conversant Vedic literature-krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB. 1.3.28]. Practically in India you'll find millions of temples worshipping Krsna as the supreme Lord. They are chanting Krsna's name. Here also they are chanting, see their behaviour, their character. Everyone is, struck with wonder how these boys are nice. So why don't you accept this practical method, why do you go to theories?
Revatinandana: In the Bible in one place Christ says that "no man can serve two masters." He says "either he will love one and despise the other or he will despise one and love the other."
Prabhupada: That's, that's nice. That is nice.
Revatinandana: He says…
Prabhupada: Therefore, for the Christian they worship…
Revatinandana: Mammon [chuckles]
Prabhupada: No. No, they worship Jesus Christ.
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: But real Christian but he is non-different from God.
Revatinandana: But the, the his point is this.
Prabhupada: Uh.
Revatinandana: He says similarly he says, "no man can serve both God and mammon."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: He says "because the more you…"
Prabhupada: That, that is also fact.
Revatinandana: "The more he loves God" he says "the more he will despise mammon…"
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: "And the more he loves mammon the more he will despise God."
Prabhupada: Yes. That is a fact.
Revatinandana: Now generally in the name of being Christian they are loving mammon more and more.
Prabhupada: Why Christian? Everyone.
Revatinandana: Everyone yes but this is the point. And when you tell them that one man, he will become ashamed, I have seen it.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: But another man you see he will argue. He will try to find some other interpretation he will say well you are worshipping God, your God is not the one God. Or he will say anything else to avoid that point. That's what I mean about the difference between the two men.
Prabhupada: No, we say there are many gods, but here is the supreme God. We say like that. There may be many gods: isvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ [Bs. 5.1] but the supreme God is Krsna. That is our point, now you compare with all other gods and this God. You'll find that Krsna is supreme. Bring one after another, all the gods or all the dogs. You'll see that these inferior to Krsna. That we shall prove. Therefore, He is the supreme God. That is accepted by authorities by sastra. Just like Arjuna after reading Bhagavad-gita he accept:
You are the supreme-Parambrahma. So, we have to follow Arjuna. We have to follow Vyasa, we have to follow Narada, Asita, Devala, the acarya's, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He is presenting Krsna, He is mad after Krsna. So why should we go to anywhere else? Here is the authority, sastra. Practical. Why should we accept something else? That is not possible. One who knows the thing, what is gold why should he accept some imitation? You accept something imitation, because you do not know. And my, just like if you take gold to an expert he rubs on the stone. Yes. So, Krsna is accepted by the expert.
By the touch stone's test. All the acarya's even Sahkaracarya who is impersonal. He said sa bhagavan svayam krsnaḥ; narayanaḥ paro 'vyaktat. Narayana is beyond this material world. And that Narayana is Krsna. He has accepted and what to speak of other acarya's. They are Vaisnava, they should accept. Ramanujacarya, Madhavacarya, Visnu Svami latest Caitanya Mahaprabhu-and all disciplic succession. So where is the doubt? There is no question of doubt. For sastra accepts, authorities accepts, there is: sadhu sastra guru vakya tinete kariya aikya. We should accept something which is accepted by saintly person by the sastra and by spiritual master.
So, this is the test, the sastra says Krsna is the supreme Lord and saintly person like Ramanujacarya, Madhavacarya there are many thousand, lakhs of Krsna. And my Guru Maharaja said "yes", then I have no doubt. My business is finished. Because if these three-person recommends-that is a fact. That is my position. My position is very easy I accept the three authorities sadhu sastra guru vakya tinete kariya aikya. You have to coincide the opinion of the sastra, the opinion of saintly person, the opinion of your spiritual master. The spiritual master will testify "yes" this is the position of spiritual master. And he will testify the same way sadhu sastra guru vak… evam… This is parampara system, disciplic succession.
Devotee 3: The problem with the Christians seems to be that they have no concept of the spiritual master.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Devotee 3: Ahm, they seem to have no concept of the spiritual master.
Prabhupada: Why? Why not? They accept Jesus Christ.
Devotee 3: They [indistinct]
Prabhupada: They accept the priestly order. Why not, that is spiritual master.
Devotee 3: They accept Christ is the way.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee 3: They prefer that Christ is the only way and that…
Prabhupada: That is all right but anyone who is directing the ways of Christ, he is spiritual master.
[break]…
Revatinandana: Many other Christian groups many of them say that they need no Pope or any such teacher about Christ.
Prabhupada: Because they are… They, they they don't even Bible. They are interpreting in different ways.
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So, they have gone to hell. They do not read even Bible, they can change the meaning of Bible. Now they are allowing this man to man marriage. Is it not?
Father Bernard: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So, they can change anything. They can change anything. Because the idea is vox populi. Many priests recommend that this is all right, reject Bible take this. This is going on. They may be rascals and fools' number one but because they are many, Bible should be rejected, they should be accepted. That is the mentality, now. There is no authority of Bible now or any scripture that is the mentality of the present day. Just like this rascal he said "dead books."So, everyone is saying like that "these are all dead books." Now you manufacture your own religion, own opinion. And that is to be done by votes, maybe they are all rascals, but they still vote because there is vote it is mutual. Rascal says all the rascals they say something good then nobody calculate that this is the vote of the rascals. But because there is a number of votes they accept it. This is going on. That is stated:
We take it perhaps we are the only group that anything voted by rascals that conclusion is also rascal. Perhaps we are saying that, others say "no if there is a large number of votes even if it is rascaldom it should be accepted." That is going on.
Revatinandana: I've experienced in preaching…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: That in the society we preach to in there one class of people who are clutching these false processes.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: Right, when they hear what we say they will never see it. Another class of men when they hear they become ashamed, they begin to listen.
Prabhupada: That is intelligent.
Revatinandana: Isn't, is that, isn't that-becoming ashamed isn't that a slight trace of truthfulness?
Prabhupada: Oh yes. They are after truth. Truthful man will accept the truth. Not his prestigious position. Just like Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya he impersonalist, he talked with Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In so many jugglery of words but when he saw that he is defeated he accepted Him. Yes, You are my spiritual. That was the position for honest men. Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya became impersonalist to personalist.
Revatinandana: And it seems to me that if the person is an atheist.
Prabhupada: Yes [indistinct] atheism.
Revatinandana: At least he has the straightforwardness to deny God.
Prabhupada: No atheist deny God, they are better. And these rascal they say that we accept Vedas and become atheist. They're more dangerous. That is the version of Caitanya Mahaprabhu
Revatinandana: Or Bible or Guru maharaja.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Revatinandana: So that's the lowest class.
Prabhupada: The lowest class.
Revatinandana: That is the hypocrite.
Prabhupada: Right, most dangerous that is stated by Caitanya Mahaprabhu: veda na maniya bauddha haila nastika [Cc. Madhya 6.168]. Veda, the the Buddhist they do not accept authority of Vedas. So therefore, we call them atheist. They are straightforward. But the Sahkaracarya, the impersonalists he accepted the Vedas but the same thing he is speaking. Buddha is speaking zero, he is saying there is no form-it is also zero. He is speaking the same thing but under the guidance under the protection of Vedas. Therefore, Caitanya Mahaprabhu said he is more dangerous.
In the Vedas there is no such thing that God is impersonal. God is person. Krsna said: vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. Through the Vedas I am to be understand. He is a person, so the Vedas means searching out the Supreme Person. Pointing out. That is Vedas. So, if one takes the shelter of Vedas and if he says God is impersonal he is more dangerous-missguiding. Buddha said I do not care for Vedas, that's all right he doesn't care. Uh, so he is gentleman.
Revatinandana: In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says no one can become a yogi unless he renounces the desire for sense gratification. [Bg. 6.2]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Right, and this is the same as the loving God and loving mammon. It's the same, I think it is the same teaching.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: And in so many…
Prabhupada: This is in Bhagavata, Bhagavad-gita says: yoginam api sarvesam mad-gaten…[Bg. 6.47]. A devotee, the devotee is the first class yogi, others they are… Even they are yogis they are inferior class. Even the yogis who have attained asta-siddhis-eight kinds of perfection. He is also inferior to bhakta-yogi. Because the bhakta-yogi he does not practice this yogic practice but he can show himself more than them. By siddhis because that is done by Krsna.
That a child has no money, but his father has money. So, if need be the father is prepared to give any amount of money. So why a bhakta should practice yoga, asta-siddhi? But all the siddhis will be shown by Krsna, that is Krsna's business. Let him depend on Krsna. He will show all the siddhis wonderful things-that is bhakta-yogis position.
Revatinandana: And bec…
Prabhupada: He does not practice any mystic yoga system, but he can show all mystic powers. By the grace of Krsna. That is the position only. He is innocent depending on Krsna, that's all. But Krsna is Yogesvara, yatra yogesvaraḥ hariḥ [Bg. 18.78]. Find out this verse; yatra yogesvaraḥ hariḥ. So bhakta is always carrying yogesvaraḥ hariḥ. So, all the yogic power, mystic power is within his fingers.
Revatinandana: Hm. And he has, he has no difficulty with mammon.
Prabhupada: No.
Revatinandana: No difficulty [chuckles].
Prabhupada: No.
Revatinandana: If he has Krsna. That is, I tell them that is the test. That if they love mammon or if they love sense gratification…
Prabhupada: We are searching after a nice house in London. Krsna says "here is a nice house take it." So, what is the use of practising a mystic power? Just depend on Krsna.
Kisora: Yatra yogesvaraḥ…
Prabhupada: Yatra yogesvaraḥ hariḥ.
Kisora: yatra yogesvaraḥ krsno
Prabhupada: Hm.
Kisora: yatra partho dhanur-dharaḥ
Prabhupada: Hm.
Kisora: tatra srir vijayo bhūtir
Prabhupada: Hm.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Kisora: "Wherever there is Krsna, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer…"
Prabhupada: The God and devotee. Hm.
Kisora: "…there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality..."
Prabhupada: Just see.
Kisora: "That is my opinion."
Prabhupada: [laughs] Two things must be there. Sincere devotee and Krsna then everything is there. Take prasadam.
Father Bernard: Thank you.
Revatinandana: I'm experiencing that gradually they are seeing the sincerity of the devotees. And as they see the sincerity of the devotees…
Prabhupada: Yes, you simply remain a sincere devotee, with Krsna. Everything is within your grip. Because Krsna is within your grip. Ah, vedesu durllabham adurllabham atma-bhakti [Bs. 5.33], it is said. You cannot search out Krsna in the Vedas, but if there is devotee, he can deliver you Krsna, take it. That is the position of the devotee: adurllabham atma-bhakti. He can deliver Krsna-take it, I give you. This is the position of the devotee. You cannot search out Krsna by reading Vedas, although the Vedas means to search out Krsna, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15]. But it is not possible, it is very, very difficult but if you approach a devotee he will immediately deliver you Krsna-take it.
Therefore, it is conf… Ahm, stated by Visvanatha: yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasada. By the mercy of spiritual master, immediately you get the mercy of God. Yasyaprasadan na gatiḥ kuto 'pi-if you do not get the mercy of Krsna then you are nowhere. Without the mercy of the spiritual master, then you are nowhere.
Revatinandana: At Cambridge…
Prabhupada: Ah.
Revatinandana: I met one big professor of Sanskrit. Who taught about the Vedas, and I started to talk to him about Krsna. He said "these Vedas they don't mention this Krsna. Who is this Krsna?"
Prabhupada: Hm. Atharva-veda has he studied? That is clearly mentioned, Krsna Devakinandana in Atharva-veda.
Revatinandana: But it is very difficult to find it.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Revatinandana: He didn't find it.
Prabhupada: [chuckles]
Revatinandana: He has read the Vedas; he says but he missed that point. [chuckles].
Prabhupada: But then what about these acarya's? Ramanujacarya, Madhavacarya, and other big, big acarya's. They, if they did not find, they have given in their commentary all Vedic quotation. So you are more than them?Are you more than Ramanujacarya, who cares for you? Ramanujacarya is controlling the whole Indian society, Madhavacarya. Who cares for you? So, are you to be accepted more than Ramanujacarya? You should challenge him like that.
Devotee: [chuckles]
Revatinandana: He wasn't even interested [chuckles] he said I just, "I just teach Sanskrit."
Prabhupada: [indistinct] I am also not interested with you, a fool like you. We are also not interested. You maybe very big man amongst some but I would consider you are rascal number one.
Revatinandana: Yeah [chuckles].
Prabhupada: Because you have got the criterion, in the Bhagavad-gita. Eh?
One who does not surrender to Krsna. He is in the four groups, the sinful, the rascal, the lowest of the mankind and one who has taken away his knowledge or the demon-so you are one of them.
Devotee 3: [chuckles] Zaehner [indistinct]
Revatinandana: No this is another one, there are many huge…
Prabhupada: So, you have to speak like that, give them challenge in person. You say there is no mention of Vedas, that's all right therefore you don't accept Krsna. What about the acarya's? Who is, who is controlling the whole Vedic society in India. Anyone Indian calling himself Hindu or Vedic they are following either of these acarya's. So, what about them? They are fools. They are accepting Krsna without Vedic reference? You have become a foreigner so big scholar in the Vedas, and they are all fools? You have to accept like that? We shall accept you are fool. What do you know? And that is mentioned in the Vedas. Anyone who does not accept Krsna he is a fool number one, so you are fool number one. We cannot follow you.
You should be proud like that. And this is quite reasonable. Why the acarya's accept Krsna? Does it mean that they did not know anything about Vedas? And Ramanujacarya comments on the Bhagavad-gita, everyone comments. Quoting all Vedic references. All Vedic reference. But the Mayavadi says like that, but he says with reference to all Vedic, from Upanisads, all references. Vedas means Upanisads. And in Atharva-veda there is clear mention devakinandana sutaḥ krsna. Gopala-tapani [Upanisad], there is clear, we have to study this Vedic literature-Jiva Gosvamis. You study or not study if you are fixed up in your point that will help you. That's all. But if you study more that is good.
Revatinandana: Sometimes they, sometimes when we are dealing with them. We are, we are thinking somehow, I will get him to come and see you. [chuckles] and then we have to be a little diplomatic. [chuckles]
Prabhupada: Don't bring these rascals it is a waste of time. Better deal with them.
Revatinandana: I thought maybe if we brought one big rascal [chuckles] and if you defeated him…
Prabhupada: But he, he will not accept me.
Devotee 3: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Even if he is defeated, simply it will be a waste of time. He is not Sarvabhauma Bhattacarya.
Revatinandana: That right.
Prabhupada: That if he is defeated, he will become dishonest. That was the former etiquette. You are a big scholar; I am a big scholar we are talking-one who is defeated he shall become his disciple.
Revatinandana: Hm.
Prabhupada: Surrender to him. Then if you don't surrender if you are defeated then why shall I waste my time. Even I defeat you and if you do not become my disciple, my follower-then why shall I waste my time? Therefore, one such rascal came to Rūpa Gosvami and he wanted to talk with him. That I want to talk with you about sastras. "So, I, I have defeated so many scholars." "So, what do you want?" "I want to defeat you." Ah, "so all right you defeat me." "Oh no give me it in writing." "Yes, I am giving that."
Revatinandana: Hm.
Prabhupada: "Yes, this man has defeated me. Take it."
Revatinandana: Now…
Prabhupada: "And go away." [laughter] He wanted to avoid this rascal. And why shall I waste my time? Let him take that paper.
Devotee 3: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Yes, I'm defeated.
Revatinandana: What, what about the Staal correspondence?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: This, in the Staal correspondence he never accepted defeat.
Prabhupada: He has said, why he has become silent? That is defeat.
Devotee 3: Yeah
Revatinandana: Ah.
Prabhupada: At last, he could not reply. That is defeat.
Revatinandana: Ah. I thought if…
Prabhupada: Maunam sammati laksanam-when you become silent that means you have accepted. You may say that I am not defeated, but you are defeated.
Syamasundara: And his student wrote a book about it.
Prabhupada: Maunam sammati laksanam. As soon as we become silent then you are defeated. Or you accept my, what I say.
Revatinandana: Hm. So, like last, last Friday night we went to the city of Bristol because this big. The biggest, the biggest professor of oriental philosophy in Oxford was speaking there, about mysticism. So, we went and listened to his talk. And his thesis was that the Bhagavad-gita is amoral because it is voidist [chuckles].
Prabhupada: That anyone can say, any envious person can say like that. But we have to test whether his statement is confirmed by the acarya's. Otherwise, any insane man can say like that. As ah, we have to accept that statement. Acaryavan puruso veda [Chandogya Upanisad, 6.14.2]-a man is in knowledge who follows the acarya's. But he, he is speaking against the acarya's. Big big acarya's, Sahkaracarya, Ramanujacarya, Madhava, so he is fool himself. If I defy all big men and I want to establish my theory, then I am a fool number one. And only the fools will hear him.
Revatinandana: Hmh.
Prabhupada: Why did you not say, what about the acarya's?
Revatinandana: Well, he said that…This is the point [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Ved… Is it Vyasadeva has written Bhagavata about Krsna…
Revatinandana: This is the point that…
Prabhupada: Does it mean that he is writing something about somebody immoral and waste his time. In so learned scholarship Bhagavata?
Revatinandana: See what I was going to do, I was going to challenge him on the point that…
Prabhupada: No no there is no use of challenging because they are rascal number one. Don't waste their time… Waste your time. They will never be converted.
Revatinandana: But you see, it is like this. In, in, just like in the Gita Krsna says to Arjuna because you are a devotee…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Therefore, you can understand this.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: I was saying "now who are you to speak on the Bhagavad-gita when you are not a devotee?"
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: When you are not in disciplic succession.
Prabhupada: But he's not devotee, he is killing [sic] himself. That I am not a devotee. Your business, why shall I hear you? You're not a devotee, you cannot give any opinion on the Srimad-Bhagavad-gita because you are a rascal.
Revatinandana: Ah.
Prabhupada: That will be our statement.
Revatinandana: But I wanted somehow, I wanted to get him here to have you defeat him…[indistinct]
Prabhupada: Why shall I waste time with this rascal?
Revatinandana: Be… because…
Prabhupada: Even if he is defeated… Why don't you understand the point?
Revatinandana: But if it is on the tape, if it is on the tape, and if you defeat him and then people read this…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: That here is Svami Bhaktivedanta saying, and here is Zaehner saying.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: And you are, in every place he is appearing fool.
Prabhupada: That's all right, that maybe…¶
Revatinandana: I thought that might be valuable.
Syamasundara: Very good move.
Prabhupada: He, it is simply a waste of time. Why shall I… He's a drunkard, he's a meat eater…
Revatinandana: So that's, after he finished, he lit a cigarette and headed for the bar. [chuckles]
Prabhupada: He is a sinful number one. Why shall I talk with him? And he is deliberate enemy of Krsna.
Devotee 3: Hm.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, so these are the Hiranyakasipu, so why a devotee should talk with Hiranyakasipu?
Revatinandana: Ah, thank you. Now I mean, that I was just misunderstanding our policy.
Prabhupada: You should not waste time, let us do our own business, that's all. We have no business to defeat this rascal or that rascal. But, if need be, there is we shall do that but generally you should avoid their company.
Revatinandana: Ah.
Prabhupada: Upeksa. Upeksa, it is called-upeksa. Prema-maitri-krpopeksa [Cc. Madhya 22.73]. For a preacher these four things should be done. God's, the, the supreme lovable object. To friend, make friendship with devotees. To show mercy to the innocent people and to avoid these rascals, who are envious. Dvisatsu, dvisat means "envious of Krsna."So, he is an envious, so he should be rejected. Don't waste time. He's telling of this version that Krsna was immoral will not carry any effect.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Will not carry any effect. He is not so great that as soon as he says Krsna is immoral, immediately Krsna consciousness movement is stopped. Therefore, he hasn't got, let him tell. A madman: pagale ki na bole, chagale ki na khaya. It is said that what a madman does not speak-all nonsense. And what a goat does not eat? So, his example is never taken into consideration. Suppose he has accepted he is defeated; do you mean to say everyone will become Krsna conscious? Does it mean? Will it be?
Revatinandana: No. [chuckles]
Prabhupada: Then why shall I waste my time?
Revatinandana: Hm. Now they have also printed the, in his, in a newspaper. A summary of his speech.
Prabhupada: Hm. So why don't you protest?
Revatinandana: Should I protest it in writing?
Prabhupada: Yes, why not?
Syamasundara: Yeah, it's public newspaper.
Prabhupada: Write to the newspaper that according to Bhagavad-gita, he is a rascal. And quote the sloka.
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: So, rascal may say anything, but you are also so rascal that you have published. So kindly publish this also.
Devotees: [laughter]
Prabhupada: And quote Bhagavad-gita,
Eh? Ah, then rejoin:
They deride. Vyasadeva is [indistinct]. Om namo bhagavate vasudevaya, and these rascal drunkards, smoker he is getting all moral. So, we will have to accept Vyasadeva or this rascal?
Why should we waste, so you can protest against these. The big, big stalwart saintly person they have accepted Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The sastra has accepted and India, all Hindus at least they worship Krsna as the Supreme Personality. The foundation thousands and millions of temples in each home. So, does it mean they will stop doing this by hearing this rascal?
Devotees: [chuckle] Yeah.
Prabhupada: Do you think like that. So, what is the use of publishing this news, wasting your paper? Do you think they will be convinced by this rascal statement? Oh, Krsna is immoral therefore let us give up Krsna from this day. What authority he has got? Any madman can say anything. Eh? And if I say here "oh the Queen is a prostitute."
Devotees: [chuckle]
Prabhupada: I can say, who checks me? But will that be carried for public opinion? I can say, will the public opinion be changed in that way?
Devotee: Hm.
Prabhupada: And they will give up Queen's respect? So, all this is a madman. Unfortunately, such class of men are on the guidance of the people. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas [SB. 7.5.31]-the blind man is leading other blind men. That is the defect. So, you make your propaganda, and you can protest, you can write also. As he has said in his place, something. You can also speak so many harsh words, cruel words against him. Who checks it? You say on the authority of Bhagavad-gita that you are rascal, you are most sinful, you are the lowest of the mankind. You say. Sathe sathyam samacaret [Niti Sastra]. You also say, you are mūḍha, and quote Bhagavad-gita. That is your business. Let him speak, firstly you speak more harshly. Why don't you speak? You also say in a big meeting that he is rascal number one. He is lowest of the mankind, declare like this. Then let him go to the court.
Devotees: [chuckle]
Devotee 3: Then he will answer us?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee 3: Now involved.
Devotees: [chuckle]
Prabhupada: You also say, tit for tat.
Devotees: [chuckles]
Prabhupada: Oh! Come on, come on, Hare Krsna. Jaya. Come on. So, you are all happy in Rome?
Dhananjaya: It's a very wonderful city, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Ah, thank you. So, what is the progress?
Dhananjaya: We brought back three devotees with us.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Dhananjaya: And they are now in the Paris Temple. Two nice Italian boys and a Swiss boy.
Prabhupada: Very good.
Dhananjaya: And we met with one Priest called Monsieur Ronsano[?] Who is in the non-Christian department of the Vatican. And he has said it is very, very easy to arrange a meeting with the Pope. And he knows… I have already talked to Ronsano who knows about our movement in India. He was there several months ago, and he saw one of our Pandels in Bombay.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Dhananjaya: And the devotees in Delhi. So, he said that simply we send, first of all, an official letter to one of the Pope's Cardinals that you would like to see him in the Vatican. And then I will go and make the arrangements that you have nice quarters in the Vatican City. They have very nice parks…
Prabhupada: No, I think we wrote one sometime.
Dhananjaya: Yes.
Prabhupada: But I received no reply.
Syamasundara: We didn't send through official channels.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Syamasundara: That was the problem. This way, he knows the man we can send it…
Prabhupada: So, what is the difference between your writing and my writing?
Dhananjaya: Well, the…
Prabhupada: You can say that our…
Dhananjaya: [indistinct]
Syamasundara: He knows the man to take the letter too.
Prabhupada: No, I am fearing, if they still do not reply that is insult.
Dhananjaya: If the personal secretary writes on behalf of your Grace.
Prabhupada: Yes, that you can change.
Dhananjaya: Then it goes to the Cardinal. There is one Cardinal in the Vatican.
Prabhupada: You make letter and take it. Any one of us will sign as a personal secretary.
Dhananjaya: Yes. But he said that the Pope would be more than pleased to welcome you.
Prabhupada: That's alright, he should. But once I wrote but there was no reply. You know that?
Dhananjaya: Yes. From Montreal.
Prabhupada: Yes. That letter was published in our Back to Godhead.
Syamasundara: [indistinct] proper channel.
Revatinandana: Recently there was that picture of the Pope with that Swami form New York, Satchidananda Swami. Something like that. And they are like this, smiling. Is this so important he will sit with anybody. Like this… One of these Swamis from New York. They were sitting together with the Pope. They are both smiling like this, and it seems very meaningless.
Syamasundara: Anyway, you stop in Rome sometime, and he may see you.
Dhananjaya: The weather is also very wonderful.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Dhananjaya: It is very hot there and dry.
Prabhupada: What is the temperature?
Dhananjaya: One hundred degrees.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Dhananjaya: Yes.
Prabhupada: Very nice.
Devotee: Also, [indistinct] in the Catholic...
Prabhupada: Yes. Best thing that you make arrangement. I shall go there and speak generally. In the meantime, the secretary may write. But once, he did not reply.
Dhananjaya: But now I think this movement is known worldwide is more, are, known about society.
Syamasundara: On a week from this Wednesday, Lord Brockway is coming here with his wife in the evening for dinner.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Syamasundara: And he will stay the whole evening. He is very, very nice. He is 85…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Syamasundara: And vegetarian.
Prabhupada: Oh!
Syamasundara: Since childhood. Birth. In Calcutta, he was born.
Prabhupada: Lord Brockway?
Syamasundara: Yes, and he lived in Berhampur most of his early days.
Prabhupada: Berhampur.
Syamasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Oh!
Syamasundara: And now he is fit, walking out on the ground in the House of Lord, 85 years old. Very nice man.
Prabhupada: Englishmen are generally healthy. That is our impression.
Syamasundara: And no meat he said he never had any meat.
French Devotee: He plays tennis [indistinct]
Prabhupada: The plays tennis?
Syamasundara: No, he doesn't [several talking]
Devotee: Most of the English people [indistinct] lived in Calcutta.
Prabhupada: Old man. It is very difficult to [indistinct]
Devotees: [chuckle]
Syamasundara: So, then he gave us a pass into the House of Lords, and we sat and watched the proceedings for some time.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Syamasundara: A very nice high-class man.
Prabhupada: Yes, Lord family, aristocratic family.
Syamasundara: And there I saw George over at Dennis's office. They were having business meetings, so he began to talk about the House of Lords. And and George has got a plan to invite the Prince Charles to his home as soon as possible and talk.
Prabhupada: How long it takes for Rome to here? By plane.
Dhananjaya: About an hour and a half, two hours. That's all.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Dhananjaya: Very good services between London and Rome.
Syamasundara: The most beautiful city in Europe.
Dhananjaya: Hm.
Prabhupada: The most beautiful city.
Syamasundara: Wonderful. Old civilization.
Dhananjaya: One of the oldest histories in Europe.
Syamasundara: [indistinct]
Prabhupada: So, what is our activities there? At the present moment.
Dhananjaya: Well, I was in Rome with Guru-Gouranga.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Dhananjaya: For five days and we were staying in a Catholic hostel, and we were making preparations to become an Association.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dhananjaya: Incorporated in Italy.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Dhananjaya: And we have met with a, a nice lawyer he is 24 years old.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dhananjaya: And very willing, very willing to make us into an incorporated society.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dhananjaya: So as soon as I go back with some Italian devotees. There are already seven Italian devotees in Paris.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dhananjaya: Ah, then we can make a very nice center there, I'm sure.
Prabhupada: That's nice, you do that first of all.
Dhananjaya: Yes, we have many friends already…
Prabhupada: Seeing the Pope is not very important. Our preaching is more important.
Dhananjaya: Yes.
Syamasundara: Every week one coachload of Italian tourists comes to Bury Place temple.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Syamasundara: As part of their tour. They are very pious.
Prabhupada: There are many nice men all over the world. So, our preaching should pick up them. Kicking out of these Jainsa, what is that?
Revatinandana: Zaehner [chuckles].
Devotee 4: Zaehner [indistinct]
Dhananjaya: We met with one Merkasa [Merkava, Jewish mystics], she runs a macrobiotic center in Rome. And she has been vegetarian for 15 years, she has a son who is vegetarian.
Prabhupada: Vegetarians will ah, very quickly understand.
Dhananjaya: Yes, yes. Yes, and she can understand philosophy.
Prabhupada: Non-vegetarians cannot understand what is God.
Dhananjaya: Hm.
Prabhupada: It is not possible.
Dhananjaya: Yes. She appreciated very much the Bhagavatam.
Prabhupada: This, this is another secret.
Revatinandana: Hm.
Prabhupada: Vina pasughnat, that is stated in the Bhagavatam [10.1.4]. Those who are animal killers they cannot understand. It is not possible. Their brain is so dull, that it is impossible for them to understand God. Therefore, this is the first step, you you'll find. You make a statistic and study all the non-vegetarians. They cannot have any idea…
Revatinandana: Hm.
Prabhupada: Of God. Hundreds and thousands you test. It will be they have no idea. Even big, big men, yes they have no clear idea of what is God. They cannot. That is not possible. At least the vegetarianism helps one to understand God.
Devotee 4: In Canada they cut down animal slaughter by 20%.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee 4: In Canada.
Prabhupada: Why 20%, mercy.
Revatinandana: I think that is some economic reason.
Devotee 4: Well [indistinct]
Revatinandana: That is an economic reason; that's not pious [chuckles].
Prabhupada: Just like in India they make compromise with the government. That cow's which is giving milk will not be slaughtered.
Devotees: [chuckle]
Prabhupada: That is also economic. All rascals.
Dhananjaya: In Italy-even today they are using the cows and the bulls to pull the carts just like in India. I saw a big, big white cows, very strong and very broad pulling carts in the countryside.
Prabhupada: And after that they are killing?
Dhananjaya: No.
Devotees: [laughter]
Prabhupada: After taking the milk, after engaging him to work. They kill.
Devotee 3: Sal…
Prabhupada: This is civilization.
Revatinandana: Salamis.
Devotee 3: Salamis or…
Prabhupada: If you work for, hard for me and if you give me food and then I kill you. What is moralist? Ask this rascal [Zaehner] that you are more moralist than Krsna? By killing cows. Who is giving you milk you're killing your mother, so you are more moralist?
Revatinandana: No, the basic principle that we are doing as far as I understand this. We are trying to appeal to the section of society that may understand. And for the rascals we don't care so much. Nor for any tricks or gimmicks.
Prabhupada: Ah, anyone who is really inquisitive-we can talk. But if we know that he is a rascal number one. Why should we waste our time?
Revatinandana: Yeah. Just like…
Prabhupada: You can talk many other people those who are actually inquisitive. They are searching after, then our labor is fruitful.
Devotee 3: Hm.
Prabhupada: But if I know this man is rascal number one, jealous, envious. Why should we waste our time?
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: If you did not know that is different thing. But if we know that he is purposefully jealous, why should we talk with him?
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: And what benefit will be there? Suppose if he is defeated, what benefit we get?
Revatinandana: Hm. That's…
Prabhupada: So why should we waste our valuable time? Better chant Hare Krsna, utilize.
Revatinandana: Just like last night we had a, we took a hall in the city of Brighton.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: Which is on the southern coast. And all weeks, five of the boys, Kisora, four of the boys stayed there, they made publicity. We passed out papers and things. And about… We charged a little bit, just enough to keep the rascals out.
Prabhupada: Hm. Yes.
Revatinandana: And the interested people they immediately they give a little bit and then they come.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: So, we had a hundred guests at the program. About a hundred and the whole thing was very nice.
Prabhupada: Just see, you charge something.
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: That will admit selected persons-not these rascals.
Revatinandana: Yeah. They chanted; they loved the prasadam.
Prabhupada: The innocent, to the innocent you should be very much, we should devote our time for them. Krpa-this is preaching. Preaching is krpa. Mercy. Not my mercy but God's mercy. We are delivering that's all like a peon. It is mercy. Just like a peon brings some money, money order, that is not his money. Somebody has sent and delivering. The man who is taking he is also, feels obliged "oh peon you have brought it in right time." But he is not paying. Similarly, our business is servant of God, the mercy of God we are delivering that's all. But I am insignificant, what mercy I have got I cannot say but by Krsna's mercy I can deliver.
Dhananjaya: Hm. And must avoid being preponderant.
Prabhupada: Yes that, that is our business.
Dhananjaya: Hm.
Prabhupada: So, one who is jealous of Krsna, why should we pay him… Ask him so take the mercy.
Revatinandana: At the end of that Friday night…
Prabhupada: That is aparadha.
Revatinandana: That Professor…
Prabhupada: Oh.
Revatinandana: At the end I, I knew…
Prabhupada: Out of 10 aparadha's-offences. Anyone who is not willing to talk with him about Krsna consciousness is aparadha.
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Is offence.
Revatinandana: When I was with that Professor, I knew I should have stood up and challenged him on the spot. At the end of his talk…
Prabhupada: Yes, that was your duty.
Revatinandana: But I didn't do it because I thought. I was thinking so many things, if we can get him to come here, like that. I shouldn't have done it; I should have challenged him on the spot.
Prabhupada: No immediately challenge.
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: This is the challenge, that you are talking of Krsna. What authority you have?
Revatinandana: I, I knew [chuckles] how to challenge him but I didn't do it, you know because I thought I…
Prabhupada: You are not authorized.
Revatinandana: I would something else instead…
Prabhupada: You are outsider.
Revatinandana: I would get him this and that.
Prabhupada: You cannot talk of Krsna.
Revatinandana: That's right.
Prabhupada: Nobody will accept your statement. You are, why you are wasting your time in this way? And becoming sinful more. You are already sinful we can understand but you will become more sinful. But another thing is that Krsna is immoralist but there are many other immoralist. Why you're mentioning Krsna?
Syamasundara: [Laughs]
Prabhupada: So, He's famous immoralist.
Devotees: [Chuckles]
Prabhupada: You're not so famous.
Devotees: [Laughter]
Prabhupada: You are not so famous. Logical argument.
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: And nobody knows you, but I can give you statistic. Millions of people know Krsna. So, what is your value?
Devotees: [Laughter]
Prabhupada: And Krsna says you are rascal. So whose vote will be taken?
Devotees: [Laughter]
Prabhupada: [laughs] Use these words. [laughter] Krsna says that you are rascal. As you are saying Krsna is immoral and Krsna says you are rascal and lowest of the mankind. So, whose vote will be taken Krsna's or yours? Krsna is so famous that even an envious person like you, you are also speaking of Krsna. But who speaks about you?
Devotees: [Laughter].
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Dhananjaya: Sometimes…
Prabhupada: Krsna's name is in the dictionary. Is your name in the dictionary?
Devotees: [Laughter]
Prabhupada: So, what you are?
Devotees: [Laughter]
Revatinandana: But at these programs that, that community we began to attracts, a certain community.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: It's a small community, but it, little by little it will grow.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: And they are very pleased with our program when they meet it.
Prabhupada: No, we, we have to select right persons. Moons not the stars.
Devotee: Hm.
Prabhupada: We have to select. Ekas candras tamo hanti [Niti-Sastra 4.6]. If we can select one person-right. Like moon, oh that is sufficient, it will illuminate. Not this thousands and millions of stars. What is the value of these stars? They are twinkling and bwwwwhu, [makes a buzzing sound] that's all. And if there is one moon ahhh…
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: The whole world is illuminated. So, we, our position should be like that to find out the moon, not the millions of stars. Just like he has got so many followers, but what is the value of it? None of his followers can talk with our followers. I think even in the Guru maharaja cannot talk with our one follower.
Revatinandana: That's right.
Prabhupada: Yes. So, what is the value?
Devotee 2: Hm.
Revatinandana: I think in this country, there are many moons.
Prabhupada: Oh yes.
Revatinandana: Many.
Prabhupada: Intelligent [indistinct]
Revatinandana: More than anywhere I've seen.
Prabhupada: Western people there is intelligent. But they have not been guided properly otherwise they are intelligent. They are coming from Aryan families, ksatriya family.
Revatinandana: Hmh.
Prabhupada: So, they are intelligent.
Syamasundara: Just watching the proceedings of the House of Lords how intelligently every problem is presented and discussed and then they pass. Compromise, find some solution. Very oh, I've never seen, high, such high brains. And for hundreds of years the same house is going on like that. No disturbance.
Revatinandana: Unfortunately, it is not the real power.
Syamasundara: Well, you just put the right contents into that situation, and oh, they can all become Krsna conscious. The whole world.
Revatinandana: It's the House of Commons that has the public gallery.
Prabhupada: One difficulty, one difficulty is that they are not ending their sinful activities. They sanction, that is going on, just like drinking wine. It is sinful. But they take it, what is sinful? We do, so what is that drinking? So illicit sex, they consider it as sinful, eating meat they don't consider it sinful, that's the defect.
Revatinandana: They caught two big men from the House of Lords recently going to prostitutes. [chuckles]
Prabhupada: Just see.
Devotee: Yes.
Revatinandana: It was all over the newspapers. [chuckles]
Prabhupada: They are reluctant to give up this sinful life. Therefore, however cultured they may be…
Syamasundara: One of the items discussed today was the pig production development amendment.
Prabhupada: What is that?
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