Room Conversation with Father Bernard – July 16, 1973, London
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Prabhupada: What is that?
Syamasundara: Killing [indistinct]
Prabhupada: [indistinct] pig production?
Syamasundara: Yeah. The laws governing pig production.
Revatinandana: Oh yeah. They talk about the animals just like pounds of wheat or pieces of metal. In the sanest language, it's an economic matter. How much was slaughtered this month as opposed to last month. Just completely mechanical. Completely brutal.
Syamasundara: There was a bill presented by Zetland.
Prabhupada: Lord Zetland?
Syamasundara: Ah, I didn't… It must be Lord Zetland [indistinct].
Prabhupada: Yes, Lord family. That means that former Zetland's son.
Syamasundara: Ah must be. Maybe we should contact him.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Syamasundara: Contact his…
Prabhupada: He was, his father was Governor, I think.
Syamasundara: This Brockway, Lord Brockway says that he will introduce us to all the Lord's there who are favorable to our kind of lifestyle. He was there as an introduction.
Prabhupada: Zetland introduced this bill? How to kill pigs.
Syamasundara: No not the pig bill. It was something about housing.
Prabhupada: His father was a good philosopher.
Syamasundara: But they all must be very intelligent men, a few highly educated.
Prabhupada: But Zetland is in Scotland? [Another name for Shetland]
Syamasundara: I don't know, I can't. Zetland?
Father Bernard: [indistinct]
Dhananjaya: Well, there is a Shetland.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dhananjaya: The Orkneys and Shetland. [All talking]
Syamasundara: It's Zetland, Z, E, T, O, LAND.
Prabhupada: There is no place?
Dhananjaya: Is it a Scottish family?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dhananjaya: Zetland.
Revatinandana: It might not be a place, it might be just a name. [All talking]… It's a place?
Syamasundara: I've seen it on a map, I think it's in north of, north-east of London in that corner. I've seen it once.
Prabhupada: Zetland.
Syamasundara: Zetland, small it sticks out into the… [indistinct]
Prabhupada: He may be Scotsman, but he resided here. And became Lord of Zetland.
Syamasundara: Also, they were discussing wars and insurance and aircraft.
Prabhupada: What are they?
Syamasundara: I'll, I'll give you this to read.
Prabhupada: No, no I have no time.
Devotees: [Laughter]
Syamasundara: It's very involved.
Prabhupada: [chuckles] I cannot waste my time, [indistinct]. I've have got this dictaphone, I've got this [indistinct] [laughter] left hand writer [?] That's all. When I stop this, I work here, when I stop this, I work there. [laughter] That is my business.
[break]
Prabhupada: If you want me to go there for one or two days I can go.
Syamasundara: I think later when the weather gets a little cooler here. Cold. Then it will be nice to go there.
Prabhupada: Oh. Otherwise, it is very hot.
Syamasundara: No, I say when the weather here is cold. Then it's warmer, better there.
Prabhupada: It is already warm.
Dhananjaya: Yes, in Rome, the weather is very similar to Los Angeles.
Prabhupada: Hm.
Dhananjaya: It is very similar to Los Angeles, the weather.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Dhananjaya: It never gets cold. In wintertime maybe 60°. Never below 60° in winter. So just now, it is hot up until September-October.
Prabhupada: The temperature is 100.
Dhananjaya: 100, between 80 and 100.
Syamasundara: September-October is a good time to leave here as well because it gets cold here.
Prabhupada: September-October, it is cold here?
Revatinandana: Yes.
Syamasundara: It starts to get frosty sometimes.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: September, yes.
Father Bernard: It starts to get cold in September.
Syamasundara: It's never extremely cold [indistinct]
Prabhupada: But November there is snow.
Syamasundara: Only, only three or four times a year a little snow. Not much-mild.
Revatinandana: Well sometimes [indistinct] sometimes it gets pretty cold. When I arrived here I came from Bombay it was on Christmas Day. When I left Bombay about 80°. I got off and I got to my room in London and there was icicles 5 inches long on the windows. Ice was hanging [laughs].
Syamasundara: But you were here for a few months and only one time snow.
Prabhupada: No no. I, when I was in that ah…
Devotee 2: Ascot.
Prabhupada: Oh, hotel what is that? [All talking]
Syamasundara: Baker Street.
Prabhupada: Baker Street.
Syamasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Oh, from my window I was seeing every day snowfall. [laughter]
[All talking]
Revatinandana: Last winter was mild here, but the winter before wasn't mild. It was quite cold.
Prabhupada: For so many days.
Dhananjaya: It never snows in Rome.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dhananjaya: It is never known to snow in Rome.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Dhananjaya: Never. [laughter]
Revatinandana: He hasn't even got a place, and he is already inviting you. [laughter]
Prabhupada: So, if you like I can go.
Devotee 3: Near the airport.
Dhananjaya: And there is some very nice houses in Rome also.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dhananjaya: Very nice houses.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Dhananjaya: All marble. Marble floors [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Italy is famous for marble.
Dhananjaya: Yes.
Prabhupada: The whole air ah, airport station is marble, I have seen.
Dhananjaya: Yes.
Syamasundara: Airport?
Prabhupada: Athens, Athens. [pronounces A-thens]
Syamasundara: Athens oh.
Dhananjaya: Also, in Rome also.
Prabhupada: Athens also near Rome.
Dhananjaya: In Greece yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. So, I saw the whole airport is covered in marble. Big, big marble so thick
Dhananjaya: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Yes. They also chanted Hare Krsna. Yes, some young men as soon as they saw us-Hare Krsna! They chanted. [laughter].
Revatinandana: Where was it?
Prabhupada: Athens.
Revatinandana: Athens.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: We stopped there on the way to India.
Revatinandana: Hmh.
Prabhupada: You know that.
Syamasundara: Yeah, I was…
Prabhupada: You were with me.
Syamasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: I was surprised [indistinct]
Revatinandana: That was the highest culture.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: That was the highest culture we have seen on this side.
Prabhupada: Greece.
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Yes. Greece is still the original history.
Syamasundara: But when you discussed their style and Socrates.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Syamasundara: When you discussed, when we discussed their style of Socrates, Plato before you make it [indistinct]…
Prabhupada: But ah, Socrates is the best philosopher amongst the Western.
Revatinandana: Yeah, kind of.
Prabhupada: He accepted immortality of the soul.
Syamasundara: Only for humans.
Prabhupada: Only for the humans?
Syamasundara: And not for animals.
Prabhupada: Oh!
Revatinandana: Yeah.
Prabhupada: But what is your opinion, that animal has no soul?
Father Bernard: The animal has no soul, no.
Prabhupada: You agree to that? Why?
Father Bernard: That's how we have all been taught.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Father Bernard: An animal has no soul.
Prabhupada: Now you have been told, but what is your personal opinion?
Father Bernard: I suppose.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Father Bernard: I don't really know, I, I suppose I don't think they have a soul. Because they are lower than…
Prabhupada: No.
Father Bernard: The human culture.
Prabhupada: Why, how do you conclude that animal has no soul? What is your reason?
Father Bernard: Well, I suppose we just because the church is teaching, which is all I've ever known. I think.
Prabhupada: Eh? Church teaching…
Father Bernard: But the Church is teaching…
Prabhupada: But there is philosophy and science. So, first of all if there is soul what is the symptoms of possessing the soul?
Father Bernard: Soul is the…
Prabhupada: Just like this table has no soul.
Father Bernard: That's right, yeah, that's right.
Prabhupada: But I have soul. So, what is the difference between this table and myself so that I have got soul, and he hasn't got soul?
Father Bernard: It's the part of you that goes back to God. The body is only a casing, a box…
Prabhupada: No no…
Father Bernard: To held's something…
Prabhupada: Just to make a scientific study…
Father Bernard: [indistinct] is life. And that is…
Prabhupada: What is the difference between this table and myself?
Father Bernard: You are a created creature by God, this is something made by man.
Prabhupada: Only that is the difference?
Father Bernard: You are created by God in His image.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Father Bernard: The image of God, this is just…
Prabhupada: This is also created by God; can you create iron? Can you create iron? Then? This is created by God. Can you… this glass means, this is silica? Can you create silica? So how you can say that it is created… Man has simply transformed. But the creation is of God. You find iron from within the earth. So, have you created that?
Father Bernard: No.
Prabhupada: Then why do you say that is created by man? It is created by God. If that is your criterion that what is created by God, it has got soul. Then, everything is created by God. That is the statement in the Bhagavad-gita.
janmady asya yataḥ
[Vedanta Sūtra 1.1.2] The Vedanta. Everything is created by God.
Bhagavad-gita says;
It is My energy. How you can say it is not created by God? Nothing is created except by God's energy, anything you take. That is perfect vision. So, if that is your definition because it is not created by God. Then you are mistaken, everything is created by God. Now the iron is created by God and the silica is created by God and if you say that in this thread I have created. All right somebody has, man has created. The man's intelligence, who has created? God has created.
So therefore, if my intelligence is created by God and by my intelligence I've created this table then originally it is God's creation. How you can say it is man's creation? And the scientists also say that we cannot create we can simply transform. The iron was there, and I have simply transformed the iron into a pipe shape that is all. I did not create the iron, so you cannot say that it is not God's creation. It is God's creation. Everything.
Devotee 2: What about animals then?
Prabhupada: Everything is God's creation. Huh. Krsna says:
I am the father of all living entities in any form. Sarva-yonisu-in any species of life.
Devotee 2: Living entities?
Prabhupada: Yes. He is the father, bija-seed giving father. He is. That means imperfect knowledge.
Syamasundara: So, if an animal is living and I am living…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: And I have a soul but he doesn't have soul…
Prabhupada: Why he has not soul? He has soul, you say because you have no sufficient knowledge. Now you have to study how you say that it has no soul? What is your, what is called? Prirman [sic] to prove that it has no soul. Ah, that means animal.
Devotee 2: Premises?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Devotee 2: He can't ah, think like me.
Prabhupada: Eh? Why he cannot think?
Devotee 2: Perhaps it is his [?]…
Prabhupada: Why he cannot think? Why? When you take him to the slaughterhouse, he cries. Why he cannot think? He cries just like man. If you take a man and, and you take him to the slaughter. He also protests and cries and he also does that. How do you say that he has no soul? Imperfect knowledge that is the difficulty rascals and fools with imperfect knowledge they become teacher. That is the defect of the modern… They have no perfect knowledge.
Devotee 2: Hm.
Prabhupada: First of all, you, you were saying that this animal has no soul. The man has soul, how you are distinguishing? How you are distinguish?
Devotee 2: [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Soul, soul presence of soul means consciousness. Just like if I pinch my body, there is pain-the consciousness. Similarly, if you pinch any animal, he has also the same consciousness.
Devotee 2: Hm.
Prabhupada: So that is the proof of presence of soul. When the soul is not there, there will be no more consciousness. Therefore, consciousness is the proof of the presence of soul. This is scientific. So, the animals have consciousness and we have got consciousness. Besides that-living, animal-living. He also eats, you also eat. He also sleeps, you also sleep. The animal has sex life, you have got sex life. The animal is also afraid from the enemy, you are also afraid of the enemy. So where is difference in your dealing?
Syamasundara: I wonder if it says in the Bible anywhere that the animals have no soul?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is, that means…
Revatinandana: It doesn't say that.
Prabhupada: It means that Bible is not authorized.
Revatinandana: It doesn't say that.
Syamasundara: It doesn't say it.
Prabhupada: Oh then…
Syamasundara: I think, I think they have interpreted it.
Devotee 3: It says in one place that [indistinct]
Revatinandana: That was Aquinas's, Aquinas was head of it.
Syamasundara: Aristotle started it.
Revatinandana: Yeah. Maybe Aristotle started it, but Aquinas was the Christian who established, who tried to establish that only the human being has a soul.
Syamasundara: Saint Augustine said it before Aquinas, I think.
Prabhupada: No. [?]
Revatinandana: I don't… I heard that it credited to… I mean, I don't know, one or the other.
Syamasundara: Saint Thomas Aquinas.
Revatinandana: But they have an ulterior motive, they were already slaughtering [indistinct]…
Prabhupada: It is all imperfect knowledge. That is the evolution. The evolution of the soul-transmigration of the soul. But they do not know it. They are thinking that the body is evolving like it.
Devotee 3: I don't think so.
Prabhupada: Imperfect knowledge. Simply…
Syamasundara: I don't think Jesus ever said you know animal has no soul.
Prabhupada: Never. I, I so far, I have…
Syamasundara: No.
Prabhupada: So why do they say like that?
Dhananjaya: All these scholars…
Revatinandana: Because they are killing the animals.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: Because they are slaughtering the animals.
Prabhupada: Therefore, they are so sinful that it is very difficult to convince them.
Revatinandana: Hm.
Prabhupada: They are sinful, simply sinful.
Revatinandana: Hm. If the animal has no soul, then I can kill the animal. Therefore, I want to prove that the animal has no soul. Even though it is foolishness.
Prabhupada: That is their point.
Syamasundara: Jesus said "though shalt not kill."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: We talked to a man for a long time.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Complete so long it takes.
Prabhupada: The animal has got soul. Your argument is not very strong that he is not created by man, and what you? Animal, animal is not created by God?
Father Bernard: Well, an animal is created by God.
Prabhupada: Yes, but?
Father Bernard: But he is a lower form of humanity, and he has no soul.
Prabhupada: Well lower form, your child is also lower form of humanity does it mean that he has had no soul?
Father Bernard: Sorry?
Prabhupada: Your child.
Revatinandana: A child, a baby.
Prabhupada: A child, a baby.
Father Bernard: Has a soul made in his form.
Prabhupada: But he is in lower form of body. If you cut his throat, he'll not protest.
Father Bernard: No.
Prabhupada: Ah, he does not know what is cutting my throat.
Revatinandana: Yeah, the baby…
Prabhupada: Does it mean that he has no soul?
Revatinandana: No, the baby is less conscious than a cow.
Father Bernard: He is.
Revatinandana: Less conscious than a cow.
Father Bernard: Yes. I think so.
Revatinandana: So therefore, I could easily kill the baby, less than the cow.
Father Bernard: That's right.
Revatinandana: So why not kill the baby also? Do you see?
Father Bernard: I do, I see yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, you see it properly.
Revatinandana: This is the problem when, when, when the people they hear some teaching. When they hear some teaching but there is no philosophy then they become doubtful. They must.
Prabhupada: Yes, religion without philosophy is sentiment. And philosophy without religion is mental speculation. They must combine. Right philosophy, right religion, and that is Bhagavad-gita.
Kisora: Most Christians say that they cannot see any ah, purpose for animals being there other than for us to eat them. Because God put them there so that we could eat them.
Revatinandana: I heard they say that.
Prabhupada: Eh? What is that?
Revatinandana: They say.
Devotee 2: [indistinct]
Revatinandana: They say it! [Several talking] they say it, but what does the Bible say? The Bible says, "the grains of the earth the fruits of the trees." That God said you should eat that. And we talked about it earlier. That when there is nothing else to eat, then all right then you will eat a fish. If they are all [indistinct]…
Prabhupada: And another thing is the Christian go to the church. They pray "God give us our daily bread." Nobody says God give us our daily meat.
Devotees: [chuckles] Right.
Revatinandana: Hm. Or flesh. Give me my flesh.
Prabhupada: God give us our daily flesh. Nobody says. So, bread is made from grains, so that is the proof that you should eat grains. Why it is specially made God give us our daily bread? Why he does not say God give us our daily chop?
Devotees: [Laughter]
Revatinandana: When, when you use that kind of language.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: They begin to think.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: They don't think of it as flesh.
Prabhupada: They have no thinking power. That means less intelligent.
Revatinandana: Because it is calf, they are eating calf.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: They call it ah, veal.
Devotee 3: Veal.
Prabhupada: Beetle?
Revatinandana: When they eat the calf.
Prabhupada: Ah.
Revatinandana: They call the meat veal.
Prabhupada: Veal?
Revatinandana: Veal yeah. Veal it means calf-meat.
Prabhupada: Oh.
Revatinandana: But they don't think I am eating calf. They think I am eating veal. They separate the meat.
Prabhupada: But what is the veal?
Revatinandana: From the calf. Veal is calves meat.
Prabhupada: But that's [indistinct] you have to meat [?]…
Syamasundara: Calf meat.
Prabhupada: Ah, calf meat. Yes. But [indistinct] here the prayer is God give us our daily bread.
Devotees: [chuckles]
Prabhupada: So [laughs] is, is the bread made of meat or flesh? Does it mean?
Devotee 2: Quite right.
Prabhupada: Does it mean?
Devotee 2: I have heard they mean the necessities, the bare necessities…
Prabhupada: Huh?
Devotee 2: [indistinct]
Prabhupada: No, no, necessity is everything. Stool is also necessity for the hogs.
Revatinandana: So now they say that the necessity is basically flesh. If that, the flesh is a necessity…
Devotee 3: [indistinct]
Revatinandana: Then why don't they say flesh?
Devotee 4: Ah, they think they can't exist without meat.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Devotee 4: They think they cannot exist…
Prabhupada: Then why you ask bread? Why not meat?
Revatinandana: Right. That's a good one. [chuckles]
Prabhupada: If it is absolutely necessity, then you directly ask for meat. Why you're asking bread?
Syamasundara: Then why are so many millions of people alive in India…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Syamasundara: Then why are so many millions of people…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: Still alive in India.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Syamasundara: If they don't get meat.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Hm.
Devotee 2: Then they also argue that Christ gave them fish to eat.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Devotee 2: Then they…
Prabhupada: All these Marwari people…
Revatinandana: We talked about that earlier.
Prabhupada: All these Marwari people, they are strictly vegetarian.
Revatinandana: Oh yeah.
Prabhupada: I have seen they are healthy.
Revatinandana: Oh yeah, they [chuckles] that's right.
Prabhupada: Rather the Bengali's who eat fish and meat…
Revatinandana: Yeah [chuckles]
Prabhupada: Lean and thin, oh!
Revatinandana: Yeah, they are very skinny.
Prabhupada: All dead body. Nowadays especially, almost all dead body.
Revatinandana: And the Marwari's are more intelligent now…
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: Because they are vegetarian.
Prabhupada: Not only more intelligent, they are materially very opulent.
Revatinandana: More prosperous.
Syamasundara: More attractive.
Prabhupada: Yes. [aside: conversation about devote going to New York on Wednesday]
[break]
Syamasundara: We were discussing House of Lords.
Prabhupada: That will be very nice.
Devotees: [Laughter]
Syamasundara: Me and Dennis were discussing how to do it.
Prabhupada: That will be very nice. Yes, these rascals should be brought in the court. That how do you deny God? Ah, I, I shall go.
Syamasundara: [laughs] yeah.
Prabhupada: Yes…They should be sued, prosecuted.
Syamasundara: So, then we discussed how…
Prabhupada: And why they professed that I am a Hindu, I am Muslim, I am Christian if they have no understanding of God?
Revatinandana: Hm.
Prabhupada: We say religion means to understand God, what is the… Religion without understanding of God, what is this religion?
Father Bernard: Religion is nothing without the understanding of consciousness.
Prabhupada: You, see?
Dhananjaya: In the Vatican which is the greatest edifice…
Prabhupada: Ah.
Dhananjaya: The greatest monument in the Christian religion, the nearest concept they have to God is a Dove. And there is a huge altar, a very, very elaborate altar in the Vatican and very, very costly gold leaf and so much marble and precious metals and precious stones. And at the top of the altar the focal point is a dove.
Prabhupada: A dove?
Revatinandana: The bird.
Dhananjaya: A bird.
Prabhupada: A dove yes.
Dhananjaya: Yes, and this is a symbol of the Holy Ghost. In other words, the Supersoul. But they interpret the Supersoul as this bird.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dhananjaya: Just as a bird.
Prabhupada: This is in Upanisad's also. The living entity and Supersoul…
Dhananjaya: Yes.
Prabhupada: It is described as bird.
Dhananjaya: Yeah.
Prabhupada: Two birds sitting on the same tree.
Dhananjaya: Yes, but here they don't… One bird.
Revatinandana: What he is saying is that they… Instead of putting Visnu…
Prabhupada: Eh?
Revatinandana: Instead of putting Visnu…
Prabhupada: Hm.
Revatinandana: With four arms their only conception of God is the dove-he is saying. A bird.
Dhananjaya: Because they say…
Revatinandana: They have no understanding of the, of the Supersoul.
Prabhupada: They have not reached the ultimate goal.
Dhananjaya: No.
Prabhupada: They do not know but this bird conception of the Supreme is there in the Upanisads.
Revatinandana: Oh yeah.
Devotee 5: You mean Katha Upanisad yes?
Prabhupada: Hm.
Dhananjaya: There, the Christians say you cannot paint God. You cannot paint him. Because it's [indistinct]
Prabhupada: Hm. No because you do not know how you paint.
Syamasundara: [laughs] yeah.
Prabhupada: The defect is that you do not know.
Syamasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupada: But one who knows he'll paint.
Syamasundara: They have painted God like Michelangelo in the Sistine Chapel; there is God handing Adam the life spark.
Dhananjaya: Hm. But in the Vatican [indistinct]
Syamasundara: [indistinct]
Revatinandana: The Sistine Chapel is in the Vatican.
Dhananjaya: In the Vatican-Saint Peters.
Revatinandana: Oh, Saint Peter's Basilica is one thing but in the Vatican, there is also the Sistine Chapel. And there they have a painting…
Dhananjaya: But the Holy Ghost is symbolized as a dove.
Revatinandana: Hm.
Prabhupada: So, you can end. [End]
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