January 2, 1976, Madras
Prabhupāda: What is the time now?
Pañcadraviḍa: Indian 6:35.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...fire, explain.
Harikeśa: Oh, because people can't see life in fire, they think there's no life in it, so therefore there's no life in the sun. But it's just like the Tata factory. When you see it from a distance there's many planes and fires, but inside there's many people who are working. Therefore just because you can't see life in fire doesn't mean it's not there. We see life in the earth, we see life in the water, we see life in the air, so why not in the fire? Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Now question, answer.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, one question is that the people in the Tata factory are not actually in the fire.
Prabhupāda: So they are also not in the fire. I say even if it is in the fire, there is no harm because the living soul is not burned to fire. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā. Adāhyo 'yam. Dāhya. Dāhya means burned. It is not burned. These are wrong conception. Because they have no conception of the soul, they think bhaṣmi bhūtasya dehasya: "When the body is burned, then the soul is also burned." If the soul is burned, then where is the question of tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]? How? In the Hindu system they burn the body. So if the soul is also burned, then where is punar janma? You?
Prabhupāda: Body is burned.
Prabhupāda: So they are.... No, if.... They have got fiery body. As your body is made of earth, the fish body is made of water, and the so many others, different elements, so similarly, there the body is made of earth..., er, fire, fiery body. The so-called scientist, educationist, they.... Everything they conclude according to his own position. Therefore avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. They think Kṛṣṇa also "like me."
Acyutānanda: The fish is in the water, but the fish is not water.
Prabhupāda: No, fish is not water, but he has got a body suitable for the water.
Acyutānanda: So the people on the sun have earthly bodies...
Acyutānanda: ...who can tolerate heat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. There is no heat. They live.... Just like.... They are not suffocated. They don't feel any inconvenience. They enjoy. Against the waves they enjoy. You cannot go against the waves. They can go, even small fish. You'll find within this there are so many animals, so many. How they are living?
Acyutānanda: Also science cannot explain how it is burning. Where is the fuel supply?
Prabhupāda: (laughs) Yes.
Acyutānanda: And there is no smoke, no waste.
Prabhupāda: Nothing. They are all.... Therefore we say simply "rascals." We have given this title to them everlastingly. All rascals, mūḍha. Mūḍho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. How Kṛṣṇa is working, they do not know. This is Bay of Bengal. Other side is Burma. [break] ...are so strong, it will never be drowned. Eh? (Hindi) The scientist says there is no life. Just disagree with them.
Acyutānanda: No life?
Prabhupāda: Scientists, yes, they say there is no life in the sun.
Acyutānanda: In the sun.
Prabhupāda: No, they say in every planet there is no life.
Acyutānanda: Well, they have to qualify. They say, "life as we know it."
Acyutānanda: They say, "There is no life as we know it," but there's some forms of life that they don't know.
Prabhupāda: So, but no, no. "As we know," but what do you know? You are rascal.
Devotee: They are trying by radio waves to reach people.
Devotee: [break] ...sending radio signals to faraway galaxies.
Prabhupāda: What is the meaning of their radios? Do you think that their radios are perfect? Do you think so? What, Acyutānanda Mahārāja? Radio perfect? It is not perfect.
Acyutānanda: And I think the demigods and higher beings, they can disturb all their radio attempts.
Prabhupāda: No, apart from that...
Acyutānanda: Because they don't want trespassers.
Prabhupāda: ...how you can accept their radio machine are perfect? Because it is made by imperfect person, so how it can be perfect? If the manufacturer is imperfect, how he can make perfect machine? Nothing is perfect.
Acyutānanda: Actually the United States government has a whole agency for unidentified flying objects that people have seen that they keep secret so as not to frighten the whole America thinking that visitors from other planets will come. But there are many incidents of pilots who fly around in airplanes, who see other strange-looking objects coming at them, flying at them, or people from the ground have seen many.
Devotee: One guy testified that he was picked up and taken away for four days.
Acyutānanda: Well, that was...
Prabhupāda: What they are? They are police? No. Mounted police?
Acyutānanda: Yes, mounted police.
Prabhupāda: A mounted police here?
Acyutānanda: Saber. Sword.
Devotee: Oh, it's a stick.
Prabhupāda: [break] Why they are guarding here?
Acyutānanda: I think for the horses.
Acyutānanda: [break] ...house in Bengali. Is this where Swami Vivekananda...
Prabhupāda: Yes. After coming back from foreign countries, he made his position here in Madras.
Prabhupāda: Hm, yes.
Acyutānanda: So he wrote a book called An Unknown Chapter of the Life of Swami Vivekananda. And in there he openly says that he smoked a hookah and ate meat.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is known to everyone.
Acyutānanda: It was.... You know...
Yaśodānandana: In Hyderabad there is a cook who used to cook for the Rāmakrishna Mission, and he said they used to cook any kind of meat.
Acyutānanda: I said, "Did you ever cook human meat?" He said, "If they told me, I would have done that also." There was nothing beyond their diet. "Anything they told me to cook..."
Prabhupāda: This building belongs to Vivekananda's society, no? Vivekananda house.
Acyutānanda: That's Bengali. "The house of Vivekananda."
Acyutānanda: They say Swami Vivekananda walked barefoot all over India at some stage of his...
Prabhupāda: Api cet sudarācaro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. Unless one is cent percent Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is not a sādhu. Sādhu-bhūṣaṇa.
This is sādhu.
Yaśodānandana: This is the vehicle in which we travel.
Yaśodānandana: This vehicle is the vehicle in which we travel to all the different cities for making the life members and arranging all the programs in South India, this vehicle.
Prabhupāda: This is your own?
Yaśodānandana: We are renting.
Prabhupāda: When I was in South Africa...
Indian man (1): South Africa.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Johannesburg. This beach reminds me of that beach. You were with me?
Prabhupāda: All statues are crying here.
Acyutānanda: This is Annie Besant.
Acyutānanda: I heard how she became interested in the Gītā. She was Christian, and her infant died. So she asked priests, "Where will this soul go, to heaven or hell? And why? Because he hasn't done anything." So she was never satisfied with their answers. So then she heard that there is transmigration of the soul. Then she became interested in the Gītā, India.
Prabhupāda: So did she understand?
Acyutānanda: Well, only up to transmigration of the soul.
Prabhupāda: She admits.
Acyutānanda: Yes. [break]
Prabhupāda: It was open? If there are any doubt. [break]
Indian man (2): ...all practical things...
Indian man (2): ...political things. Two and two will always be four. But we people don't agree so far.
Prabhupāda: Yes. You want five.
Indian man (2): (laughter) We want five, correct. Four to make it five.
Prabhupāda: There is a story that a grocer's son was doing business, and when he was given a five-rupees' note, so he was giving four rupees. So the customer said, "Why you are giving me four rupees?" "No, I do not know what is the exchange." "No, it is six rupees." So "No, father will be angry." (laughter) Means he knows perfectly well what is five rupees, but he is innocent when he was giving four rupees. And when the customer wanted six rupees, he, "No, my father will be angry." [break] ...created a havoc by misinterpreting Bhagavad-gītā, all people. According to their wish, "Five-rupees note means four rupees," by imagination. They have created havoc all over the world. Otherwise everything is there. Avajānanti māṁ mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 9.11]. If we take Kṛṣṇa's instruction, then whole world becomes immediately happy. But they will not take it. They will manufacture their own, two plus two equal to five or three, not exactly the four.
Indian man (3): So all anxiety and duḥkha have been created by the man himself.
Prabhupāda: Yes. They have created.
Indian man (3): Nobody else is doing for him, but he created himself.
Indian man (3): And then he said, "I am in misery. I am in trouble." Trouble is created by you. Nobody has created.
Prabhupāda: So that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, that mind is the enemy and mind is the friend. So we created our mind, enemy or friend, and we suffer for that.
Indian man (3): Mind is very, very powerful. How to make use of that? Actually mind is using the man; man is not using his mind.
Prabhupāda: In the Bhāgavata it is said, yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcana sarvair guṇais tatra samāsate surāḥ. In another line...
Prabhupāda: Eh? Harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇā mano-rathenāsato dhāvato bahiḥ [SB 5.18.12]. One who is Kṛṣṇa conscious, he has got all the good qualities. Yasyāsti bhaktir bhagavaty akiñcana sarvair guṇaiḥ: "All good qualities can be manifest." And harāv abhaktasya kuto mahad-guṇāḥ: "And one who is not devotee, he has no good qualities." "Why? He is so educated." No, mano-rathena: "He is hovering over the mind." Asāto dhāvato bahiḥ: "He will stick to this asat." But the Vedic injunction is asato mā sad gamaya. He cannot go to the real platform of life. Asato bahiḥ. They do not understand that this godless civilization is the root cause of all calamities in the world. (Hindi) Kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. The Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ. Twenty-four hours you have to do that. But where is twenty-four hours? You will not twenty-four minutes. (Hindi)
(Hindi) ...Nectar of Instruction. I have recently published. (Hindi) There were no book for sale?
Indian man (4): Book was not in sale yesterday.
Mahamsa: That book is not available in India, Prabhupāda.
Acyutānanda: It's a brand new book.
Prabhupāda: No, no, other books, they are not...
Mahamsa: Other books were there. They were on the book table. There was a book table.
Indian man (4): Where it is?
Mahamsa: Many people were purchasing books. (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: Prominent place. (Hindi) Keep in prominent place so that others can see. And any book which is not in stock, you can note down his order so that you can send him later on.
Indian man (5): He will come every day.
Indian man (5): Mostly he approaching every member.
Prabhupāda: No, recently we have published very important book, Nectar of Instruction. For common man it is very nice. [break] Yesterday's lecture you liked?
Indian men: Yes. (Hindi) [break]
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: ...sleep on the streets. They've arranged this housing, it is very minimal. So what many of these slumdwellers do when people are living on the streets is they come here, and they go back and live on the streets, but they rent out the apartment that the government has given them and they keep the money. They go back and live on the streets.
Indian man (1): This houses? This is all rented by the government and given free of charge to the poor to clear the slums.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Bhāgavata says,
tasyaiva hetoḥ prayateta kovido
na labhyate yad bhramatām upary adhaḥ
tal labhyate duḥkhavad anyataḥ sukhaṁ
kālena sarvatra gabhīra raṁhasā
(Hindi) So three classes of men are there: upper class, middle class. You cannot change it. It is laws of nature.
Indian man (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupāda: (Hindi) Just like Vivekananda philosophy, daridra-nārāyaṇa. (Hindi) How you can change this? (Hindi) First duty is, first of all enlighten them with knowledge. That is required, not by external bodily comforts. (end)
January 3, 1976, Nellore
Prabhupāda: They boil it with.... Oh, you have come. Good morning. Thank you. With rice. I forgot your name.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Keśavalāl Trivedi.
Prabhupāda: Trivedi, Mr. Trivedi, yes. So, who is independent? This is our question. Who is independent? Do you know any man who is independent or any animal or any...?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No.
Prabhupāda: So why they are thinking independently?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Unless we have got the identity, correct identity, we cannot be independent.
Prabhupāda: What is this?
Mahāmṣa: This is keys for the lock, Prabhupāda. It fell down.
Prabhupāda: I think somebody has left.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, there is lock and chain.
Mahāmṣa: This way, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Which way? This is natural lake or...?
Mahāmṣa: Yes, Prabhupāda. It never dries up. It stays full all year round.
Mahāmṣa: It looks bigger than the Hyderabad lake.
Prabhupāda: [break] So if you are not independent, what is the value of your thinking independently?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Absolutely none. None.
Prabhupāda: But everyone is thinking independently.
Prabhupāda: They are making plans, theories, "ism." What is the value of this?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Absolutely none.
Prabhupāda: Therefore everything is becoming failure. So preach this truth to the world, that "You are all rascals. Why you are thinking independently?" Huh? "Why I am rascal?" "Because you are thinking independently. That is the proof that you are a rascal." Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānās te 'pīśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhāḥ [SB 7.5.31]. Īśa-tantryām uru-dāmni baddhaḥ. And they are thinking independently.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Baddha we have got, and still we are thinking...
Prabhupāda: Baddha-jīva, every moment he is under the strict laws of nature. Generally they think that.... They speak also. "I think." Do they not say? "I think," as if he is independently thinking. What you can think? Hm? Acyutānanda Mahārāja, why do they say, "I think," "In my opinion"? What is the value of your opinion?
Harikeśa: Well, I have a certain amount of experience, and with my intelligence and my mind and my scientific method, I can put all that together and come out with some practical solution which I can work on.
Prabhupāda: That you cannot, because you are not independent. Uru-damni baddhaḥ. If you are tied hands and legs with strong rope, how you can think of "I shall become free in this way. I shall become free...?" But your hands and legs are tied up, so why do you think foolishly that you shall become free in this way, you shall become free this way? First of all open this, the tightening knot; then you plan that "I shall become..." But there is no such chance. So what is the value of your thinking like that?
Harikeśa: Well, relatively speaking, it's better to do...
Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. Because you are so rascal, you do not know that "I cannot move even an inch and I am making plan." That is the proof that you are a rascal.
Harikeśa: But why are people in the capital...
Prabhupāda: Therefore we call them all rascals. That is our confirmation of our statement. Mūḍhas, you all rascals, without any exception. Hm? The other day the high-court judge, he's supposed to be the most intelligent person within this state, high-court judge, and he was talking so many nonsense.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Because he thinks he knows, he does not know.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: One who thinks he knows...
Prabhupāda: Manyamāna, manyamāna. He is thinking he is very intelligent.
Acyutānanda: While he was saying that, I was thinking, "I hope I never have him for a judge."
Prabhupāda: You'll find everywhere such.
Acyutānanda: Ultimately he was saying, "It is not Kṛṣṇa or this. It is some 'something.' That is the reality."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: He was thinking that he was bringing about some synthesization.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: And that he was bringing...
Prabhupāda: [break] ...with this land also? No. [break] ...this building?
Mahāmṣa: I think it is a school, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] He does not know. He does not say that "certainly school." "It may be."
Harikeśa: Well, if I'm convinced it's a school, it's a school. I mean, the only thing that really matters is my perception of that thing.
Prabhupāda: You learn from him that it is school. Before that, you did not know. Therefore you have to learn. That experience is valuable, when you learn it.
Harikeśa: Yes, but the only thing that makes it a school...
Prabhupāda: You cannot imagine by seeing a building that it is a school. You cannot imagine that. That is foolishness.
Harikeśa: But all the people inside, they are also imagining that it's a school.
Prabhupāda: So that is all...
Acyutānanda: Just like if there is a pen. If I use it to kill someone, it is a weapon. If I use it to mix something, it is an instrument. If I use it to write with, then it's a pen. So it is not a pen. It is not a weapon. It is my idea that I impose on the object that makes it what it is.
Prabhupāda: No. No. Your idea, that is foolishness. But you learn from a teacher that this is pen; this is not a weapon. You have to learn it. If you don't learn it, then you will go on making experiment whether it is pen or it is weapon or it is this or that. Go on. But it will never come to any conclusion.
Mahāmṣa: Like giving a child a pen who does not know...
Mahāmṣa: ...that we have to write with it. He has to be taught that we have to write.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere you have to learn from the perfect person. Then his knowledge is perfect. So our proposition is that: learn from Kṛṣṇa and you get perfect knowledge.
Harikeśa: We've invented this pen, so we can invent how to use the pen.
Prabhupāda: You have not invented. Some experienced more than yourself, he has done. You have been given the pen to use it for that purpose.
Acyutānanda: Yes. Whenever some scientist does something, the whole nation of that scientist takes the credit. That is another idea. They say, "We made the pen," or something. Everyone in India takes the credit.
Prabhupāda: That is animalism. Dehātmā-buddhiḥ. "I belong to some particular body, and he belongs to the same body or same nation. Therefore we become..." Instead of "I," we become "we."
Acyutānanda: Recently there was an atomic scientist whose all major education was in America and Europe, and he won a Nobel Prize award...
Prabhupāda: That is the tendency everywhere. The Britishers.... You go to the Parliament and Westminster Abbey. They have kept all the statues of Sir Isaac Newton and this Churchill, this.... Mean, they want to show that "It is only our nation who has produced all these intelligent persons."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, yes. From "I-ness" to "we-ness."
Prabhupāda: [break] This is basis of Gītā. Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā [Bg. 4.34]. Learn from the real person, tattva-darśinaḥ, who has seen, who has actual experience of the truth. Learn from him. The Gītā never recommends that you imagine and make your theories. Never said. That is the Vedic culture. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. Tasmād guruṁ prapadyeta jijñāsur śreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. This is the way. Take lesson from Kṛṣṇa or Kṛṣṇa's representative. Then you will get experience. This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. What is the use of imagining?
Harikeśa: I mean, after all, all this talk about God was simply there because of man's desire to explain the unknown. He saw a thunderbolt and...
Prabhupāda: It is unknown to the rascal man. It is known to the sober man. (laughter) He should become sober instead of becoming a rascal. That is required. Vidyā-vinaya-sampanne [Bg. 5.18]. Ācāryavān puruṣo veda: "He knows, who has accepted the ācārya." This is Theosophical Society, I think. Huh? That trademark. Or Rāmakrishna Mission.
Acyutānanda: No, Salvation Army.
Prabhupāda: Salvation Army, oh.
Mahāmṣa: This is also school.
Harikeśa: Actually we're the only Salvation Army.
Acyutānanda: [break] ...the authority of a authority. We're accepting his authority, but his experience comes from his direct perception, which comes back to...
Prabhupāda: We don't take such authorities, who takes experience from others. We take authority who is...
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Experienced.
Prabhupāda: Automatically. (sic:) Parāsya bhaktir vividhaiva śruyate svabhāvikī jñāna-bala-kriyā ca. Svabhāva..., you can.... Just like if you ask me how to do something, if I say, "Yes, you do like this," svabhāvikī. I have got by nature knowledge how to do it perfectly. That is going on. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Kṛṣṇa is dictating that "You do like this." So, you see, everything is coming perfect. From the nim seed a nim tree will come. It is so nicely made by Kṛṣṇa-bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg 7.10]—that it will come nim tree, not mango tree. The chemicals are so combined. You do not know what is there, a small seed, baṭa vṛkṣa. And a huge banyan tree will come out, not other tree. That is knowledge. He has given the whole, I mean to say, operation in a small seed. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām. There is no mistake. You simply take it and cultivate. You'll get the result.
Acyutānanda: So that principle, which makes things grow, the Īśopaniṣad says, so 'ham asmi: "I am that principle."
Prabhupāda: Asmi means "It is my energy. It is my energy."
Acyutānanda: No, it says...
Prabhupāda: If I say that "I am ISKCON," what is the wrong there? Because I have created this; therefore I say, "ISKCON means I. I am ISKCON." So what is the wrong there? It is like that. By energy of Kṛṣṇa, everything has come out. Therefore says, "I am this, I am this, I am this, I am this." Vibhūti-bhinnam. Because everything.... Janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. Everything has come from Kṛṣṇa.
Acyutānanda: No, the Īśopaniṣad says that you are that principle. Īśopaniṣad says the principle which is lighting the sun...
Prabhupāda: Yes, a devotee accepts.... That we accept.
Acyutānanda: ...that "I am that principle. The being that is lighting the sun, I am that."
Prabhupāda: I do not follow you.
Harikeśa: "Like unto the sun, as am I."
Prabhupāda: Oh. Yes, so 'ham asmi—because I am part and parcel.
Acyutānanda: No, but it says "I am that, " not that "I am part of that."
Acyutānanda: "I am that." "Like unto..."
Prabhupāda: If it is said, it can be accepted, because I am qualitatively the same.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Quantity, much difference.
Acyutānanda: No, but the direct statement...
Prabhupāda: I am.... If I say, "I am Indian," what is the wrong there, if I say, "I am Indian"?
Acyutānanda: That is something else.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Not something else.
Prabhupāda: And therefore you have to learn from the guru. And if you directly take, then you remain a fool. Therefore you require a guru. That is the instruction of śruti. Tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You have to learn śruti. You have to come to a guru.
Acyutānanda: No, but this is after that. The ultimate conclusion of that Upaniṣad, śruti, the authority, is that you are that same principle.
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the same principle. Nityo nityānām.
Acyutānanda: Well, nothing can be more eternal than another eternal.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is eternal.
Acyutānanda: It is contradictory then. Nityo nityanānāṁ. You cannot say that one thing is more eternal than another thing.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That is not the point. Everyone is eternal.
Acyutānanda: So how can one be more eternal than...
Prabhupāda: As God is eternal, so you are also eternal.
Acyutānanda: Then why the distinction...?
Prabhupāda: But because you have accepted this material body, you are foolishly thinking that you are not eternal. Otherwise, as God is eternal, you are also eternal.
Acyutānanda: Then why should one be distinguished from another if they are both eternal?
Prabhupāda: Just like the sun distinguished from the sunshine, but qualitatively heat and light is there. But because sunshine is there, you cannot say sun is there. That you cannot say. Mat-sthāni sarva-bhūtāni nāhaṁ teṣv avasthitaḥ [Bg. 9.4]. Clearly said.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: I think, Swamijī, you explained this, and I could draw rationality from it, that "I am īśa, but not I am sarveśa. I am ātman but not Paramātman."
Keśavalāl Trivedi: "I am aṁśa but not Paramāṁśa."
Prabhupāda: That is explained in other.... You have to take reference. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. I am also īśvaraḥ. That I explained so many times. But that does not mean I am paramesvara. Paramesvara is Kṛṣṇa. What is this building? Hm?
Acyutānanda: This is more of that Christian...
Acyutānanda: Same seal as the Christian...
Acyutānanda: This is a mosque.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Ahaṁ brahmāsmi I was not able to explain till I heard Swamijī on the first day at Rajeswara in Mandapur.(?) That fits in. Otherwise Māyāvādīns, "All right, but Śaṅkarācārya saying, ahaṁ brahmāsmi. Why you say no?" Because so many persons ask me question. And when I was confronted, I was not able to say that. But the way the mukti was defined, mukti, yes, and in the lecture, and īṣa, sarveśa, all those things—ātmā, Paramātmā, aṁśa, Paramāṁśa—there I found that it can be explained. Because so many persons, they ask in public meeting like Lions Club, where we take up these topics. Then we feel at our wit's end. But now I think I can explain them.
Prabhupāda: So that day my explanation was all right?
Keśavalāl Trivedi: Yes, that is how I feel. And that is what will apply also to Acyutānanda Swami's question also, I think.
Acyutānanda: No, I'm just fencing.
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, no, that's all.... I know.
Acyutānanda: So Durga is higher than Viṣṇu because Viṣṇu required Durga to awaken Him from the yoga-nidrā to kill Madhu and Kaitabha. So she controls Him.
Prabhupāda: Yes, if I ask my servant that "You ask me to get up at seven o'clock," that does not mean.... (laughter)
Keśavalāl Trivedi: No, some of these things we could not follow. As a matter of Madhu-Kaitabha-vadha, I have read it several times.... (end)
January 3, 1976, Nellore
Prabhupāda: These things are not available in the Western countries. They do not know all these.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: I don't think that there has ever been a personality who has ever given such a great gift to the Western world as yourself, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Yes, actually that is the fact, but let them appreciate, that's all.
Prabhupāda: No, they are intelligent. First...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: The thing is, it seems to me, that we are flooding so many books that they must become Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Prabhupāda: (laughing) Yes, they have no alternative than to read these books.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Practically now it is commonplace that every day when our men go out, supposing each man meets in a day a thousand people or five hundred people, always, without a doubt, at least one or two of the people he's met, they already have another book, and they are taking a second or third book.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Many of them have two or three volumes of Caitanya-caritāmṛta or Bhāgavatam. And although they may not read it, their children are reading it.
Prabhupāda: Somebody is reading.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes. I made a study. I asked the men in our party, when they were all gathered, to raise their hand if they had received a book before joining our party, and every single one of them had gotten a book before joining the movement—without exception. They were attracted through reading a book or a magazine.
Prabhupāda: I talked with that police officer. He has published. In Chicago.
Harikeśa: "Why and what to do?"
Prabhupāda: Every paper, there are so many papers. Education so much advanced, and everyone is a criminal. Hmm. Have saṅkīrtana, then lecture.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa only. [break] That is foolishness. Why our men does not become ready before four o'clock and have maṅgala ārati and kīrtana? If our habits are not changed, then what is the use of spending so much money? [break]
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In no way can anyone say that they're independent. There is no possibility. At every moment one is dependent. And if anyone says they aren't, they are simply foolish rascals. We have to challenge everyone in the world on this point, "You cannot be independent." He is pointing out, saying that even in politics, the politicians like Indira think that they are independent, and Prabhupāda was saying that Munshibhai Raman, he fought so hard for his country's independence, Bangladesh. But in one hour, when the soldiers came, they killed him and every single family member, not sparing anyone. But he thought he was independent. He thought his country had become independent. But in one hour it was all wiped away.
Prabhupāda: So where is your independence? What is the answer? At any moment you have to die. Even Munshibhai Raman or Mussolini or big, big, so..., Napoleon.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone. He was given horse urine to drink, Napoleon. Such a great hero, but he had to drink horse urine. This Englishman after Battle of, what is that? Waterloo. When he was arrested, when he was asking water, he was given horse urine. Because everyone was very, very angry. Napoleon became just like Hiranyakasipu. They were threatening their children: "Oh, he, Bona, is coming. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep." He became so much.... He was known as Bona. You do not know all these things?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Whole Europe became threatened, Napoleon. And there must be some reaction. And when he was under custody he was treated like an.... So where is independence? He had to drink horse urine as reaction of his atrocities. Hitler committed suicide and finished himself. Mussolini was forced to be killed. Gandhi was killed. And they are fighting for independence. You know this Sydney? Sydney? You know why the city is known as Sydney?
Prabhupāda: Sir Philip Sydney, a great commander, during the fighting time, when he was shot, he asked for water, and the water was not supplied and he died. Now, he was very generous man. He was the commander. Water was brought, and at the same time another soldier was being carried. He was also going to die. He was looking for the water. So immediately he said, "This water give him. Give him," and he died. He was very generous. He knew that "I am going to die. If he can be saved, give him this water." So that Sydney, Sir Philip Sydney, his name. Melbourne, it is also named after great soldier. So where is your independence? If you are thinking independently and doing things independently, then is it not foolishness? Hm? Why don't you answer? You don't want to be foolish? Suppose within the prison walls, if you want to do things independently, is it possible?
Prabhupāda: You'll be put into further sufferings as soon as you violate the rules and regulation of the jail. You'll be put to a further term of suffering. Just like they are independently trying to avoid pregnancy, and the same man who has killed his own child, or same mother, he is being killed within the womb. Prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. Nature will not tolerate this. In India still these things are not happening because they are not so advanced to use all these contraceptive method. But in Europe, America, it has become a common affair to kill the child within the womb.
Prabhupāda: Yes, gradually. As soon as you kill, then you must be killed. This law is there: life for life. So where is your independence? Independence means you are inviting more sufferings, that's all. You go on, declare your independence. We are the only sane man. We have accepted that "We have no independence." Here Kṛṣṇa is asking. "Let me surrender unto..." That's all. So we have to convince the people, "Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific. You are foolishly rascal. You are trying to be independent. That is not possible. Kṛṣṇa is asking to surrender. You do that." That will make him happy. In many varieties of ways we have to convince them and prove that "You are foolishly thinking that there is independent, so-called scientific advancement, and only promising, 'Yes, in future we shall be like this, be like this.' " What is future? Just take account of your present position. Where is the history that you have...? If in the past something like that happened, then you can expect future. But in the past, the whole world history, there was no independence. [break] ...clearly says, ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā kartāham iti manyate: [Bg. 3.27] "These rascals, out of false ego, and vidmūḍha, foolishly declaring that 'I am the doer of everything. I can do everything independently.' " Kartāham iti manyate. Manyate means "falsely think." Actually, he is nothing but a small particle. This egotism is the root cause of suffering. Discuss all these things amongst yourselves and preach and inform these rascals, so-called civilized scientists and philosopher. That is preaching. We have to present the truth in such a way that they will be convinced, "Yes." Within fifteen minutes the plane in Arabia, fifty-three men fell. Within fifteen.... It takes fifteen minutes to die. That's all. Where is your independence? You have invented so many nice machine, but when there is order from superior, "You nonsense, your machine.... You die immediately," what you can do? So why don't you accept there is superior? Hm? Why do they not accept? What is the reasoning? You cannot say?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That accept. If he accepts that he's vimūḍha, then it is an advance. Just like a dog is barking, "Yow, yow, yow, yow!" You just run towards him with a stick, he'll immediately go away and stop. Because he is dog, he is thinking, "I am independent. I can bark like this." And as soon as.... Simply one stick-finish his independence. You'll find psychologically, however a big dog he may be, if you just run towards him with a stick, he'll go.... (laughs) He knows that "When this man will strike me with the stick, I cannot do anything." He knows it very well. Sometimes falsely if you touch the ground, he will go away. Everyone is thinking independently. He is forming a party, "revolution," "ism," and so many things. All of them are foolish rascals. They do not see the history. Stronger men than ourselves, Napoleon, Hitler, this man, that man, Gandhi—everyone is finished. So where is.... What is the value of my planning again? [break] There are many gods?
Prabhupāda: Vivekananda. He is follower of Vivekananda. [break] ...Vivekananda's house was made, say, eighty years before. So what is the use of this house? It is standing and it is covered with matches.... What is called? Straw? What is called?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Dorma, we say dorma. The bamboo cut into slice and open...
Harikeśa: Citar. Citar.
Harikeśa: Like the roof in the other place in Madras.
Prabhupāda: Yes. It is English? Citar it is called?
Harikeśa: No, Hindi.
Prabhupāda: English, what is the English? They do not use it.
Hariśauri: A straw roof, they call that thatching. Thatch.
Prabhupāda: Thatching, yes. That is right. So the windows are thatched. So where is the production? Vivekananda is standing as preacher. So where is the preachers? People should have gone there in hundreds; there should have been some program. So where is the program? Simply "Vivekananda house." Lick up the house. [break] ...rows of statues on the beach, many statues—for passing stool by the crows. I have seen in Calcutta one statue of Sir Asutosh Mukherjee. So in the morning, on the day of the birth anniversary, in the morning the municipal sweepers with their brush, they will rub it to cleanse the solidly stuck-up crow's stool with water. It will be done for three, four hours. Then in the evening, big, big men will come, gather, and offer him garland one after another, just like they were offering me. In this way the meeting will be held. In the morning it is brushed with the sweeper's street brush, and in the evening it is offered garland. I have seen it. Here also I see that she has kept Kṛṣṇa's mūrti outside. It is aparādha.
Hariśauri: Even that tulasī tree around the corner, they have clipped to shape it, cut all the branches.
Prabhupāda: They have no guidance.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Last night when we were reading, they all left, especially on that point of following the regulative principles: no meat, crabs, fish, eggs. They all got up and walked out.
Prabhupāda: You said that the same cooking place will have to do, where they are cooking meat?
Harikeśa: They're not cooking it now.
Harikeśa: They're not doing that now.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...is not planning. When he comes here he is determined that he will not eat in anyone's home.
Prabhupāda: That is very good.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Not only that, but he's not going to sleep in anyone's home either. They want to camp out by the riversides.
Prabhupāda: Very good idea.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: He says that he finds it very.... From reading your books it is very clear that Caitanya Mahāprabhu was very careful and strict to only eat prasādam cooked by proper persons.
Prabhupāda: No, purchase from Jagannātha temple. People would come to offer Him prasādam, so what is the cost of the prasādam, that was taken, and He purchased. Formerly, the system was, there was no hotel, but there were temples. You go and you can purchase very cheap price. I went with my father in my childhood in a place. My father would never take food at anyone's house or in the hotel. He will find out some temple and pay them and take prasādam. Still there are many temples. So I was about ten years old at that time, say, seventy years ago. So he paid two annas to the pūjārī and he gave us so much. It can be eaten by five, six men. Kicheri, vegetables, varieties. So much. Two annas.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: There's a nice temple in Nabadwip that does that, the Govinda temple in Nabadwip. When I was going to purchase the land in māyāpura, the Mr. Das, the lawyer, and I, we would take our meals at this temple. Every day he would purchase. He would give a little.
Prabhupāda: Yes, still there are.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They had arrangement like this. At least a hundred people were taking, respectable people.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: It's a very big temple, that temple. Of course, I don't know how bona fide the persons who speak at night are, but every night there are speakers, and many people coming. It's a very good temple. I was very impressed by it. Nice rooms for people to stay upstairs, very active, always being cleansed by people.
Prabhupāda: That is temple.
Prabhupāda: So we have got so many examples. Introduce this. (end)
January 4, 1976, Nellore
Indian man: ...mission, and they only think that...
Prabhupāda: So we shall return now?
Indian man: [break] ...my weekly visits, that Jyoti Swami showed me that incident at Japan(?), and he asked me, "Have you seen...?"
Prabhupāda: Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. Makṣikā bhramarā icchanti...(?) Maksikā, these ordinary flies, they find out where is sore, and the bhramarā, he finds out where is honey. Similarly, doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. And the Bhaktivedanta Swami is doing preaching all over the world—that has not come to his eyes. He has come to the Japanese incident. He has come.
Indian man: Yes, I told him there might be some, in a big organization, such a...
Prabhupāda: No, why did you not say, "You are such a pamara that this thing has come to your notice and not other thing"?
Indian man: That I told him. For that he began to say, "No, no, you read my literature. You'll be.... We don't have any envy." I took that also with me, and he gave me.... Next time, when I went, after reading, I said, "How many mistakes are there? Not even a single dot is mistake in other literature, and still you say this literature? And what is new therein? Nothing new."
Prabhupāda: Just try to understand that whatever it may be, what is the mentality of these rascals, that "The good things do not come to your notice." If something is bad, "Oh, here is..." You see. Pāmarāḥ doṣam icchanti guṇam icchanti paṇḍitāḥ. Saj-janā guṇam icchanti doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. That means they are not even a Vaiṣṇava. You see? Vaiṣṇava means paramo nirmatsarāṇām [SB 1.1.2]. Even one has got some fault, a Vaiṣṇava does not see that. He takes the good qualities. But they are not even Vaiṣṇava. Yes. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. The mission of Gau..., Caitanya Mahāprabhu, is being preaching all over the.... That does not come to their.... Some Japanese paper has written something—it has come immediately. Doṣam icchanti pāmarāḥ. That fool, that he's a.... Here is a pāmara, and he's a lowest of the mankind. You can say that "Why this thing has come prominent to your eyes and not the other thing?"
Indian man: No, I did say in my own way, though I did not quote this, that "You are a pāmara." I said, "Why..."
Prabhupāda: Yes, you can say now, that "That day I forgot to say that you are a pāmara. So I have come to say that you are a pāmara." (laughter) "I forgot it. Excuse me, I forgot it. So you are pāmara."
Indian man: And it is so. As a matter of fact, it is so. And for that, the apology is, "No, no, I do realize that lot of work is being done about that."
Prabhupāda: "But because I am pāmara, I am finding out this fault." But you have now completed the sentence. "You know lot of things, but because you are pāmara, therefore this thing has come prominent."
Indian man: That is the proviso.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is the proof that you are a pāmara.
Indian man: In my own way, if they challenge us and they are convincing, because to the audience it has to be said. One gosvāmī, when I said, "Well, this is a movement which I very much like, and like also to join," then he said that—because I am conducting Gītā Bhavan(?) founded by him—he said, "No, no, no, no. We as a matter of fact champion that cause. But afterwards, when we realized that it is not sampradayic, we have given it up. Therefore..." Then his conduct.... The next day itself, he was not liking me. I have been doing this propaganda, this Gītā pravacanam, for the past four years in the organization founded by him. But the very next day, that gosvāmī, Puruṣottama Gosvāmī of Vṛndāvana...
Yaśodānandana: The envious one.
Prabhupāda: He has got a camp here?
Yaśodānandana: No, in Madras.
Indian man: When he was here it happened. And that devotee's grace.... Then I said, "What is the reason why you say?" "No, no. After all, we are qualified. Those mlecchas..."
Prabhupāda: Nobody cares for you. You are so qualified that nobody cares for you.
Yaśodānandana: What did he say about mlecchas?
Indian man: Yes, "Why mlecchas, how can they have, after all?" I said, "You yourself were a married person, and..."
Prabhupāda: And you did not know that they are not.... If they are mlecchas, then you are nārakī. It is said, vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ nārakī. Yes. Ārcye viṣṇau śilā-dhir guruṣu nara-matir vaiṣṇave jāti-buddhiḥ nārakī. Anyone who considers in terms of caste a Vaiṣṇava, he's a nārakī. Nārakī. Now, just like we go to the temple to see the Deities. Many millions of people are coming, but everyone knows that this is made of stone. But they are going to see the stone?
Indian man: There is God in it.
Prabhupāda: Huh? They are going to see the stone? So arcye viṣṇau śilā-dhiḥ. Anyone who thinks like that.... Similarly, everyone knows that he is European, he is American, but because he is Vaiṣṇava, one should not see like that, "mleccha." If he sees, then he's nārakī.
Yaśodānandana: It also proves that they have no faith in the holy name, because the hari-nāma purifies everything.
Dhṛṣṭadyumna: (aside:) Did that swami show that article to Prabhupāda?
Hariśauri: (aside:) Did he?
Prabhupāda: Why do you speak in the middle? You should hear. Yaj-jihvāgre nāma tubham, yan-nāma śruti-mātrena pumān bhavati nirmalaḥ. And this rascals says the nāma has no.... See. We have to meet simply rascals all over. The so-called religionists, so-called swamis, so-called yogis, so-called politicians. You see? Simply we have to meet with all rascals.
Indian man: No, he was reminding me of this Jyoti Mahārāja showing that article on Kṛṣṇa Jayantī day to the reading out to the entire audience. That was a rubbish.
Prabhupāda: He was reading?
Indian man: Ah, that is what he reminds me, because I said the incident which I had with him.... On Kṛṣṇa Jayantī day I did not go there. But on that day it was being read out. That was the silly part of it.
Yaśodānandana: So Prabhupāda, these same people that...
Prabhupāda: So what is the wrong there? What was the wrong?
Indian man: No, he said that "This movement has got these black sheep, and they have been banned in Japan. Everywhere they will be banned."
Indian man: Nothing.
Yaśodānandana: First of all, we are not even banned in Japan. The center is still there.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that's all right. Banned means we had something. But what proof you have got that you have done something in Japan?
Indian man: There is something; there is nothing.
Prabhupāda: So it is better. Just like one man said that "I have lost fifty thousand this year." His friend said, "You are still fortunate, because you had fifty thousand. But I have no fifty paisa even."
Indian man: So there is something. Here nothing.
Prabhupāda: "So you are so fortunate that you could suffer the loss of fifty thousand, but I have nothing to lose."
Indian man: But that is for a discriminating man. Here it is an ignorance, asuya, envy. When Acyutānanda Swami was addressing one man (he) said, "Why always have Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa? We can have Hare Christ also." Same answer as Your Holiness gave, he said, "Yes, yes, you can have it. Whoever says.... We don't say no. It is also possible, but degree, matter of degree," as Your Holiness the other day put it. And some chapters and words were read out to the people. They were convinced that same saṅkīrtana is also sanctioned in the Bible.
Prabhupāda: We have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu or you? Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ [Cc. Ādi 17.31]. So we have to follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu. What is this building?
Devotee (2): Prabhupāda, they said that if Caitanya Mahāprabhu wanted Kṛṣṇa consciousness in the Western countries, why didn't He go there Himself? That's what they told us.
Prabhupāda: So He left the credit for me. (laughter)
Devotees: Jaya! Haribol!
Prabhupāda: He loves His devotee more than Himself.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, by His simple desire He could kill. (laughter) He said therefore, bhaviṣyatvam, pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma, sarvatra pracāra haibe. He is leaving the task for somebody else.
Indian man: [break] ...Caitanya-caritāmṛta, all these things, Swamijī has brought out very vividly. I have read only introduction and some portion only. But what Caitanya Mahāprabhu had ordered, ordained, is taking place. It is very vividly brought out. [break] ...behind using the machinery, cars, airplanes, other things also, I think very convincing, Swamiji, when you say that they are meant only for Kṛṣṇa's service, and if it is dedicated for that, it is used. Otherwise it is misused, abused.
Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. That is bhakti. Just like you are walking, some money falls down from your pocket. Then you forgot. And somebody, "Oh, here is some money"; he takes it. And somebody takes it but offers to you. Who is the better man?
Indian man: The person offering.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That who takes it and puts in the pocket, he is a thief. And who takes it and offers to you, he is sincere friend. So we can use everything only for Kṛṣṇa. And therefore we are friend to Kṛṣṇa. And you are thief. Kṛṣṇa's property you are using unauthorizedly. Therefore you are a thief.
Devotee (3): [break] The Christians say that God has given us certain things to enjoy. Just like I was talking to one Christian about eating meat, and he said, "Well, I enjoy eating meat."
Prabhupāda: So, the tiger will say he will enjoy you. Why do you protest against the tiger?
Acyutānanda: In the Bible it says that everything was for the enjoyment of man. Man is sovereign over the animals.
Prabhupāda: Enjoyment does not mean that you kill him.
Prabhupāda: Go-rakṣya. You protect the cows and take the best food in the world, milk. That is enjoyment. Not foolishly to eat the cow.
Indian man: I am reminded, Swamijī, of one day, the tussle between two Muslims. One happened to be a high-court judge and another Fossil(?), he was always propagating that there should not be animal killed for human purposes and all those things. So on one platform I was the organizer. This high-court judge had been invited, and he began to say animal kingdom is meant for exploitation by human being. And this man flared up: "Where do you get in Koran? You are talking some nonsense, though you are high-court judge." It was a problem for me how to manage this high-court judge, presiding high-court judge, and this man who was a public man. Then he convinced that "Don't say all these things. Where are the passages? In Arabia this eating of goat was a necessity then. That is how it was. Otherwise human beings cannot exploit. You withdraw. Otherwise I will make this meeting a pandemonium." That is how he did it, and he succeeded. (laughter) He succeeded, very same. That Fossil, he succeeded. And this idiot who was appointed by Rajajiv, high-court judge, he could not convince. I said, "Why do you talk about controversial subjects when you do not know?" But he was a presiding judge. He thought, "Whatever I talk is sense." That chief justice asked me, "How have I spoken?" So he wanted certificate from me afterwards. I said that "If that incarnation of (indistinct), if you should have left, that would have been better. You did very well with regard to your experiences about this movement and the..., at Chicago and all those, but you dabbled with thinking that this is something original."
Yaśodānandana: All of those speakers are very eager to give credit to Vivekananda, but he has not done anything. Prabhupāda has done the most. They cannot see properly, all these speakers.
Indian man: Acchā?
Prabhupāda: No, it is not that no one has heard, but they are working for the last eighty-five years. What they have done?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They only have about four or five temples, centers in America. There is no Deity established in the temples, only some big...
Prabhupāda: Now recently they have established one temple of Rāmakrishna in Vṛndāvana. Nobody goes there. Nobody goes there.
Yaśodānandana: It is simply a hospital.
Indian man: They have taken up social work, isn't it? Everybody. Swamijī, I am now reminded. A few weeks back I was invited to Raj Bhavan. I went as an invitee of an invitee. And that Madhuben Shah(?) began to wax eloquent because he happened to be the president of the world union. And they said, "Oh, we want to integrate the entire world, and the emotion and gradation, all those things." And they invited the views of Aryans, of twenty-five persons. All spoke. I did not speak. I kept quiet. Somebody said, "Here is a person who really knows." I said, "I am sick of this talk.... [break] And why should we have another organization for the same purpose?" Then I said, "But anyhow, I don't know. If Kṛṣṇa..." Nowadays I use that...
Prabhupāda: [break] There is Theosophical Society?
Yaśodānandana: Yes, all over the world, international.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...started from here?
Indian man: It was started. Madras center and there in America.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...come from the other side. [break] ...registering this association, some friend suggested, "Why don't you make it 'God consciousness'?" And "No, 'Kṛṣṇa conscious.' If I bring God consciousness, they will bring so many gods."
Indian man: And another question reply was also very convin..., that all other are gods, but He is Godhead. That is very clinching expla.... Some of these things are really direct replies.
Prabhupāda: And actually that is fact.
Indian man: This was.... Even Acyutānanda said the other day. Somebody asked us that question, "Why not 'God conscious'? Why do you want 'Kṛṣṇa'?" He also said the same thing. [break] "What is the difference between thieving the butter and other things by Lord Kṛṣṇa and thieving by us?" I said "The thieving is thieving." I said, "How can there be theft of..." [break]
Prabhupāda: And if you steal, you will be beaten with shoes.
Indian man: We are beaten with shoes, but He is allowed.
Prabhupāda: Not only allowed, but He is worshiped: "Sir, it is very kind of You that You have stolen."
Indian man: That is what.... In forensic language it is called abet, abetted. The very owner abets, "It is kind of you to have committed theft of this." (end)
January 6, 1976, Nellore
Acyutānanda: It is called Mahāprabhu sādhana. It is on record that that is the house where Caitanya Mahaprabhu spent catur-masya. [break] Yes, he arranged to have these programs for us. There were almost ten thousand people there.
Prabhupāda: There is good potency in South India.
Acyutānanda: Oh, yes, it is very promising.
Mahāmṣa: He is secretary of our committee here and president of the Rotary Club in Nelore.
Prabhupāda: So your arrangement was very nice. Thank you. Hm. Where is that wrapper? These cottages are very nice.
Mahāmṣa: [break] His father is donating for Kṛṣṇa's Deity.
Prabhupāda: Oh. And who is donating for the temple?
Mahāmṣa: They will.... We will comment. I will comment.
Harikeśa: Is there a path that goes down there?
Acyutānanda: It's shallow. [break] ...that the Vaiṣṇavas say that the gold ring is smaller in quantity than the gold mine, but the only way in this material world.... That is only a material example, because something can be separated from the general mass because there are many different elements. You can tell the difference between a gold ring and a gold mine because there is air and space. But there is ekaṁ brahma dvitīyaṁ nāsti, there is only Brahman, so you cannot say that there is a big Brahman and a part-and-parcel Brahman. The words "part and parcel" you have only written into the śrutis for your own...
Prabhupāda: So that is not your rascal's imagination. It is spoken by the Lord Himself. Mamaivāṁśaḥ. He is not rascal like you, that He will say something which is mistaken.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. He says like that; we have to accept it. Bhagavad-gītā as it is.
Acyutānanda: In the lower stage.
Prabhupāda: Lower stage not.... That is.... You are in the lower stage. You cannot understand. But what He says, that is right. Mamaivāṁśaḥ, sanātana, "eternally amara." It is not that made aṁśa at the present time. Sanātana. From.... From the very beginning.
Acyutānanda: Then it is contradictory.
Prabhupāda: No contradictory. It is not contradictory. He says, mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūtaḥ [Bg. 15.7], that "These jīvas, they are eternally My aṁśa." It is not that because now in the material world it has become fragmented.
Acyutānanda: How can there be any truth outside the Lord?
Acyutānanda: How can there be any truth separate from the Lord, like a gold ring separate from the mine?
Prabhupāda: Yes, but whatever the Lord says, that is truth. Not your statement is truth.
Acyutānanda: No, just like if I say...
Prabhupāda: You cannot say.
Acyutānanda: ...you should dress warmly. You should dress warmly now.
Prabhupāda: No, no. You cannot say.
Acyutānanda: And then I come in the summer, and you still are dressing warmly-it's for time and circumstance, only immediately.
Prabhupāda: No. That is spiritual fragment, eternally existing. Nityo nityānāṁ cetana... There are always plural number and singular number.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not separate. You are thinking separate.
Acyutānanda: No, a gold ring is separate from the gold mine. That is your...
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is your material conception. But everything is...
Acyutānanda: Yes, that is a material example. The example came from you Vaiṣṇavas. We do not make...
Prabhupāda: Then you don't accept Bhagavad-gītā.
Acyutānanda: There cannot be anything in between.
Prabhupāda: Then you don't accept Bhagavad-gītā.
Yaśodānandana: Ultimately everything will become one. The jīvātmā will become one with the Paramātmā. The Advaitavādī...
Prabhupāda: It is already one. That is Viśiṣṭādvaitavāda.
Acyutānanda: Yes, but it appears differently.
Acyutānanda: But actually there is no difference.
Acyutānanda: So we are one with God.
Acyutānanda: So we are one.
Prabhupāda: Why one? You are one and different, bhedābheda, acintya-bhedābheda-tattva, simultaneously one and different. Just like this. This is one and different. The children have come from the body—that is one—but still, they are different. Even in the hogs and pigs the acintya-bhedābheda-tattva is there. [break] The word should be nābheda sanātana.
Acyutānanda: [break] It is different only during the manifestation of prakṛti, but actually it is not...
Prabhupāda: Just like in Vṛndāvana. They are one, but still, there are trees, there are flowers, there are water, there are calves, there are cows, there are gopīs, but they are all one. Ānanda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhāvitābhiḥ [Bs. 5.37]. All of them are ānanda-cinmaya-rasa. Nirviśeṣavādīs..., it is not nirviśeṣavāda. Sa-viśeṣa. What is this? [break] Just see, it is already "Hare Kṛṣṇa," known.
Prabhupāda: So why not let us have this land? We can develop.
Acyutānanda: It already has our name. If the Bhagavad-gītā is in the Mahābhārata—that's itihāsa—how did it get the name Upaniṣad, Gītopaniṣad?
Prabhupāda: Because it is spoken by Kṛṣṇa. Itihāsa also Vedic literature. Pañcama-veda, Mahābhārata, for understanding of the common man. Strī-śūdra-dvija-bandhūnāṁ trayi na śruti-gocarāḥ [SB 1.4.25]. Woman, śūdra, and dvija-bandhu, they cannot understand directly the Vedas.
Acyutānanda: But even Bhisma, when he was on the battlefield, he said, "I have given up my bheda-jña," so he became one.
Prabhupāda: One you are already. Because you are foolish, you cannot understand. That is abheda. I am not different. Just like my finger is not different from me. If the finger thinks, "I am different from the body," that is ignorance.
Yaśodānandana: Just as we say that ignorance consists of not understanding the difference between the jīva and the Paramātmā, the Māyāvādīs say that ignorance means to understand the difference between jīva and Paramātmā.
Prabhupāda: So then they difference. They admit that there is difference, if they say like that, that "There is difference."
Yaśodānandana: But they say that oneness, that is the real knowledge.
Prabhupāda: No, no. That's all right. But why they say "different"?
Yaśodānandana: They say to see that our vision of difference, that our vision of difference, that is ignorance. When we understand the jīvātmā to be different from God, from Bhagavān, that is ignorance.
Prabhupāda: No. No.
Yaśodānandana: That your vision of seeing God...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So we admit that, that when we see that "I am separate from..." Then the same example: If the finger thinks that it is separate from the body, that is ignorance, because the finger is required by the body to serve the body. So if he thinks, "No, I'll not serve you because I am different," that is ignorance. That is ignorance. That is going on. These Māyāvādīs, they refuse to serve God. That is ignorance. If they are part and parcel of God or one with God, how you can refuse to serve? That is ignorant. Here the finger is my part and parcel of the body. It cannot refuse to serve. I say; immediately it comes. So if the finger thinks that "I am one. Why shall I serve the whole body?" that is ignorance. Cetana. Cetana means activity. So if I am one with God, then my activities should be simultaneously with God. That is oneness. I don't disagree. God says, "You do it." I disagree. God says, "You surrender unto Me," but I refuse. That is ignorance. If I am actually one with God, just I am asking, "You do this"—you do immediately. But if you do not do it, that is ignorance. Gurur avajñā. Then he becomes aparādhī. Similarly, oneness means no disagreement. That is oneness, cetana. Cetana means I can disagree or agree. Two things are there. That is cetana. So cetana, cetanaś cetanānaṁ. So when God says that "You do it," you must do it. That is agreement. That is oneness. If you refuse, that is ignorance. How can you refuse? Suppose you.... Take the whole family, and the head of the families asks somebody to do something. If he refuses, then that is rebellious condition. In the state the citizen must agree with the government. Cetana. Cetana means he has got both the things. If he likes, he can agree; if he likes, he does not agree.
Vasughoṣa: So their big word is that you merge and you become that. So how...
Prabhupāda: That is merging. They do not know what is merging. Merging means "I, so long I was disagreeing; now I agree to abide by Your..." That is merging. Just like several states they merge into one. So they agree to work unitedly. That is merging. Merging does not mean that you have got your discretion and that is finished. That is not merging. Then your cetana is lost. How it can be lost?
Mahāmṣa: What about the analogy that many rivers flow into the same sea and lose their individuality?
Mahāmṣa: Their example is that many rivers, they flow into one sea, and then they lose their individuality.
Prabhupāda: Because they are short-sighted, blind, that there are many individual living entities within the river. But they are blind. They cannot see them. Because it is covered by water they see only the water is there. Because they are blind rascals, they cannot see. But if they go deep into the water they will see there are so many individuals, millions, and they are living in the same river.
Harikeśa: But there's no difference between the individual living entity and the total...
Prabhupāda: Yes, there is no difference. Still, that is.... That is acintya-bheda... That is individuality and no individuality. So long they are living there within the river, there is no individuality.
Acyutānanda: That example is also a jugglery of words because the.... Let's say the Mississippi River is the quantity of water that's on the land. When it goes into the ocean you don't say that "Now the Mississippi River is in the ocean." Mississippi River is still individual, and the ocean is another thing.
Prabhupāda: The Mississippi is not finished.
Mahāmṣa: And the water molecules...
Prabhupāda: And not only that, the water is again taken away and it is thrown into the Mississippi. So these rascals who think that "We have now merged. We are now liberated," that is rascaldom. They will be taken away and thrown again. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa... No, this is fact. Āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. They cannot stay. They will be taken away by the nature's law, converted into cloud and thrown away, again come, again come. They are thrown away. They cannot stay. And again they become water and come through. That is going on, coming and going. So their merging is not fact.
Mahāmṣa: [break] ...oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. That claims Viṣṇu as the Supreme, but where does it say that Viṣṇu..., I mean Kṛṣṇa, is the source of Viṣṇu from the śrutis?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Brahmā spoke śruti, Vedas, so whatever he speaks is śruti. It is therefore called saṁhitā. Saṁhitā means Vedas, śruti. As soon as it is called saṁhitā, that is Vedas.
Acyutānanda: There was talk that they would be given examinations.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes.
Acyutānanda: What is the syllabus for...?
Prabhupāda: Whatever books we have got, it should be studied. Bhakti-śāstrī means Nectar of Devotion, Bhagavad-gītā, Nectar of Instruction, Beyond Death—in this way we select some ten books. That is bhakti-śāstrī.
Acyutānanda: So when will that...
Prabhupāda: Then we come to Bhāgavata, then we come to Caitanya-caritāmṛta, in this way. So from next year, unless one passes bhakti-śāstrī, he cannot be second initiated. First initiation is open for everyone. "Come on. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa." That will purify him. Then let him understand what is bhakti.
Yaśodānandana: This is very good, because then those that will become second..., those that will have second initiation will have to know the scriptures, will have to know your books.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is.... Now there is...
Mahāmṣa: And unless they know your books, they will never be fixed-up devotees.
Acyutānanda: So they give.
Mahāmṣa: [break] ...different Purāṇas have different Gītās, Prabhupāda? So some person said that there is a Gaṇeśa-gītā. Similarly, there are different demigods. They speak their gītā. And they also say...
Acyutānanda: Universal form.
Mahāmṣa: They show the universal form or they say that they are paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma [Bg. 10.12]. They say the same things in their gitas.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Let them do that. We take Bhagavad-gītā. That's all. Śaṅkarācārya also—bhagavad-gītā kiñcid adhītā. If Bhagavad-gītā is understood a little only, he becomes liberated.
Acyutānanda: Then why should it be called the Bhagavad-gītā and not the Kṛṣṇa-gītā. Kṛṣṇa is referred to as Bhagavān.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam [SB 1.3.28]. Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. Bhagavān, that I explained so many times. Bhagavān everyone, little possessing opulence.
Acyutānanda: But these other Gītās are named after the demigod.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. He can be called bhagavān. He is not ordinary man. He can be called. But the real Bhaga.... Kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam. That is the.... The real Bhagavān is here, but these demigods, they have got little opulences, not equal to Kṛṣṇa. Therefore they are sometimes called Bhagavān.
Mahāmṣa: But do they have the potency to show the universal form?
Mahāmṣa: These demigods?
Prabhupāda: Yes. What is that universal form? It is nothing. Any powerful living being can do that.
Yaśodānandana: In the other Vaiṣṇava-sampradāyas, such as the Madhva-sampradāya and the Rāmānuja-sampradāya, they do not understand that Kṛṣṇa has His own planet, Goloka Vṛndāvana. They think that there is only Vaikuṇṭha and nothing else.
Prabhupāda: Their knowledge is imperfect. In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said, goloka-nāmni nija-dhāmni tale ca tasya [Bs. 5.43].
Yaśodānandana: That is why when Caitanya Mahāprabhu came back to Purī, He said, "I have met many Rāmānujas, many Mādhvas, many Buddhists, but I like Rāmānanda Rāya very much because he has this knowledge of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa."
Acyutānanda: In South India there are very few Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa devotees. And what they have is from some Purāṇas, the marriage of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. They perform Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa kalyana, marriage.
Acyutānanda: In the Brahma-vaivarta... So a court case appeared. One man had some property in the name of Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities. So the court said, "You only have the quota for one family." So he argued that Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa are not married; They are two separate families, so They should have double quota of land. So he won the case on that. But if somebody came from the south, he said, "No, They can be married also," he would have lost.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...lands are being distributed.
Acyutānanda: To the bhaṅgīs.
Prabhupāda: These lands are being distributed?
Indian man: Distributed to the poor people. All these lands.
Indian man: Yes, legally, by government.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...there any question last night? No.
Acyutānanda: No, nobody put last night. [break] ...majority is English-speaking audience, then questions and answers flow smoothly.
Acyutānanda: [break] ...continuing for very long. What is the problem there?
Prabhupāda: What is the best social activity? Our is the best...
Indian man: Serving the poor and the natives...
Prabhupāda: Everyone is poor. Who is rich? First of all find out. Who is rich?
Indian man: Rich in the sense, luxurious living...
Prabhupāda: He is not living very luxuriously, that he has no disease, he does not become old. Does not become?
Indian man: No.
Prabhupāda: Then? Then where is richness?
Indian man: Somebody questioned me yesterday.
Indian man: "There are so many things. Doing any social activities?"
Prabhupāda: These things are being done by so many other people, and we are doing something which is ultimate. The hospital gives some medicine when there is some disease, but that does not mean there will be no disease. Can they guarantee that "I give you this medicine—no more disease." We are giving that medicine, that no more disease. That is the best social work. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. We are giving this medicine, that after leaving this body.... So far this body is concerned, somehow or other you pass on. And as soon as you give up this body—tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]—you'll have no more birth. And if you have no more birth, there will be no more death. And if you have no more birth, then there will be no more disease. This is our prescription. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti [Bg. 4.9]. Not that he is finished. He goes back to home, back to Godhead. This is our program. So your question is answered or not? Huh? Your question is answered or not? Your question is answered or not?
Indian man: Not fully.
Acyutānanda: Do you understand?
Indian man: Yes, I understand.
Prabhupāda: Why it is not fully?
Indian man: It is, after all, question put by a layman.
Prabhupāda: Why you should "layman"? Why should not "wise man"? Why you should insist to remain a layman? Why you are persisting to remain a layman? Why?
Indian man: Because they want...
Prabhupāda: "They" not. What I am talking with you. They are all foolish. We call them mūḍhas, duṣkṛtino mūḍhas. So their demand is not legitimate. If a mūḍha... If your small child says, "Father, give me a bidi, cigarette," would you give him? Because he is mūḍha. So the father is intelligent—"No." So similarly, the mūḍhas may demand that "Open this hospital." But we are not going to do that. We know.... Of course, hospital required so far the body is concerned, but there are so many hospitals. The real hospital which is not existing, we are starting. That is our mission, which is not possible for the so-called leaders and politicians. Try to clear this.
Yaśodānandana: Once you mentioned the story that when you were young you saw a mother running across the street in Calcutta beating her child because his brother had typhoid fever and he fed him the paratha.
Acyutānanda: Even socially, though, without religious, scientific, practical God consciousness, how can there be a civilization? How can anyone know that there's a difference between right and wrong or morality unless there is God consciousness, to know that someone is watching everything I do? If you avoid that.... Just like we say, they want Rāma-rājya without Rāma. But they want the rājya.
Prabhupāda: Now, the laws and legislative assembly there are, and there is punishment, there is court—everything there is. That we were discussing last night, that where is the honest men? Why? In spite of laws, legislative assembly, court and everything, the wholesale rogues and dishonest. Then what is the use of this? What is your answer? Why you are checked on the airport just like a culprit, criminal? They cannot trust even a gentleman, although he is educated, may be holding very good office, but still, he is not to be trusted. So this is the result of your so-called function, that there is no honest man throughout the whole world. Then, what is the use of such education? And what is the use of their living? Let them die. No hospital for them.
Acyutānanda: A man in Calcutta, he was a devotee, rich also. He had some kidney thing. He wanted to go to the Calcutta hospital. They said, "All the beds are full of Naxalites with bomb wounds and stab wounds and fighting wounds."
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Acyutānanda: He could not get a bed in the hospital because it was full of guṇḍās. Hospitals were all full of guṇḍās.
Yaśodānandana: In America they have the highest quality of hospitals and schools and everything, but yet the young people are turning to be hippies. You have mentioned that in the introduction to your Nectar of Devotion.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. What is the use of such education?
Indian man: So your education which you gave may be something like..., not like that.
Prabhupāda: Education means to do the right thing, not the wrong thing. That is education. Education means enlightenment, to know what is right, what is wrong. That is education.
Harikeśa: It's 7:15 Śrīla Prabhupāda.
Harikeśa: It's 7:15.
Prabhupāda: On the street there is sign board, "Keep to the left," or "Keep to the right." This is education. This is education. One must know how to run the car which side. Education means enlightenment. If you foolishly do something, immediately you become criminal. So education means to enlighten them to know what is right, what is wrong. That is education. But people do not know that. What is the meaning of education? [break]
Mahāmṣa: Actually, in all the schools the young people are learning all the bad habits from the schools. Instead of getting to learn how to do right things, they are learning to do all wrong things because of association with people from low families.
Vasughosa: And they even have sex education in school. They are teaching people how to be rogues.
Prabhupāda: Our education is first of all to become brahmacārī, and the modern education is how to become vyabhicārī, this rascal education. And for this purpose there are big, big universities, vice chancellor, and so on, so on.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now everything is so degraded that in American universities they have coeducational toilets.
Prabhupāda: Gradually they are becoming animals, or they are already animals.
Mahāmṣa: The principal of my school, he used to be a priest, and he used to give us these classes whereby he would tell the students that one must experience sex life before marriage. He was propagating illicit sex life in school, and being a principal and from a priestly class of person, so degraded. [break]
Yaśodānandana: ...called Ahobilam. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also went there. And the paṇḍitas there, they have reference from the Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa.... [break] ...was killed by Lord Nṛsiṁha. There is the room, the palace and everything.
Mahāmṣa: No, that was sugar.
Prabhupāda: Sugar? Salt.
Harikeśa: That's the way their salt is here.
Acyutānanda: In blocks?
Prabhupāda: Not rock salt. Sea salt.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Sea. Not here, where there is sea.
Yaśodānandana: The sea is just fourteen miles away.
Prabhupāda: Shallow water, when it is dried by the sunshine they get salt. Evaporation is done by sunshine, and they get the salt. Practically they get the salt without any cost, and whatever they get, money, they are satisfied.
Acyutānanda: Why is the sea salty? [break] Science can't.... They have no answer.
Mahāmṣa: Sweet water is falling, and it is becoming salty.
Prabhupāda: Salt means earth. Earth. So in the water there is earth. Bhumir āpaḥ. So within the water there is earth. And within the fire there is water. And within the air there is fire. Sukṣmaṁ to sthūla. From sky to land. These are the different transformation stages. [break] Nehru? Nehru. [break] Eat rice only?
Indian man: Yes, rice only. No capātis.
Yaśodānandana: Yes, in South India they only eat rice. In Mysore we had a meal. The gentleman served us nine different kinds of rice.
Yaśodānandana: Nava-dhānya. Rice with yogurt, rice with chilies, rice with dahl, rice with everything.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is system in South India, with rice, everything. Just like in North India we make purī, kachorī, balusai, sṛṅgāra. There is ghee, wheat, and sugar and salt, varieties, hundreds of variety.
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, in northern India, when there is some festival they will purchase, I mean to say, grains, means wheat and chānnā, and ghee and sugar. Then they will make hundreds of preparation out of it.
Indian man: Here we call it as poṅgal. Make it as poṅgal, we call it. It's chānnā, ghee, and sugar. We prepare it in...
Prabhupāda: Laḍḍu, you prepare laḍḍu? They prepare so many things. The main ingredient is this: besan, āttā, ghee, sugar. That's all. [break] ...also they eat rice more.
Mahāmṣa: [break] ...left in Mysore.
Acyutānanda: That's.... They've all been shot.
Prabhupāda: [break] First of all understand what is meditation. Do you understand what is meditation? Do you understand?
Indian man: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: What is meditation?
Indian man (2): Giving all thoughts.... Coming to pure silence of the mind.
Prabhupāda: So how you can be silent? Is it possible?
Indian man (2): No, just by some sādhana.
Prabhupāda: Silent is also.... (dog barking) The stones are silent. Does it mean meditation?
Indian man (2): But mind cannot be silent. The mind must be made to (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: So then how you can make silent?
Indian man (2): By seeing God in everything.
Prabhupāda: Meditation is not silence. That is wrong idea. Meditation means to think of God. That is meditation.
Prabhupāda: Brahma-bhāvana is also not practical. Parabrahma-bhāvana, kṛṣṇa-bhāvana. That is Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Indian man (2): Supreme Lord.
Prabhupāda: That is real meditation. Meditation does not mean to make the mind vacant. No, a wrong. People are thinking like that. It cannot be. One girl—that is written—"Sir, meditation to make the mind out of all thoughts." So she said, she thought that "How can I be without thoughts? This 'without thought,' I'll think—that is a thought. Therefore it is bogus." He (she) threw away this meditation book.
Indian man (2): No, thinking about the God's thought, in course of time it will be empty. Mind will be empty.
Prabhupāda: So unless you come.... According to your idea, unless you come to that emptiness, you are not perfect. But that will never come.
Indian man (2): Then only it will be empty.
Prabhupāda: That will never come. Therefore it is bogus. You cannot...
Indian man (2): In the beginning it is bogus, but the result is...
Prabhupāda: No, no. In the beginning bogus and it is always bogus, because mind cannot be without thought. So why do you propose "without thought"? That is not possible. Therefore it is bogus.
Prabhupāda: That is another.... Emptiness mean he is troubled by so many anxieties; therefore he wants to make it empty.
Prabhupāda: Negative idea. That is material idea. That is not spiritual.
Mahāmṣa: Nowadays people are going in silence, but they write questions and answers by paper. They say, "I am observing silence..."
Prabhupāda: As if there is no sound.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: In Allahabad we met a man like that. He was moving around so much that he was more active than if he had talked.
Prabhupāda: No, that "ooohh." That is the...
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Even Basarilal Nanda, I have heard, one day a week, on Sunday, it's his silence day. He doesn't speak to anyone on Sunday.
Prabhupāda: [break] What is the use of becoming silent? What is the utility?
Prabhupāda: Yes. For them it is all right.
Mahāmṣa: It is good for them.
Prabhupāda: Because they cannot speak anything good, better remain silent. [break] ...chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa, yan-nāma śruti-mātrena pumān bhavati nirmalaḥ. Simply by hearing he'll become purified. So why we shall become silent? Let them hear.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa says, satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Why.... Never said that "You become silent." Where is? Can you show me any verse in the Bhagavad-gītā? Huh? Can you show me any verse where Kṛṣṇa has advised that you become silent? Or the mind is vacant? Where these things...
Prabhupāda: Huh. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto: "The mind should be absorbed in My thought," man-manā. That is recommended. Where does He say that "Make your mind vacant and think of nonsense"? He never says. And where does He say that you become silent? He never says.
ya idaṁ paramaṁ guhyaṁ
na ca tasmān manusyeṣu
kaścid me priya-kṛttamaḥ
"Anyone who speaks about this Bhagavad-gītā, he is My dearmost friend," He said. So why one should be silent? Our ultimate aim is how to become dearmost to Kṛṣṇa. And He never says that "You become silent." Why shall I become silent? Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Rather, He recommends that "You always be engaged in glorifying Me." Where is the "silent"? These are all manufactured by these rascals. So many, meditation, silence—these are not recommended in the Bhagavad-gītā. (end)
January 7, 1976, Nellore
Prabhupāda: ...no taste, no vitamin, and still they eat.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, I have seen. Eating and remnants, it is kept in...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Oh, yes, put in the refrigerator. And then you cook it up again with fresh foods, mixing together.
Harikeśa: Is it all right if he keeps it in there and then he puts some on the plate when taking? He puts on the plate when taking?
Prabhupāda: I do not know whether it is all right, but it is not all right that you eat and keep it. This is not all right.
Harikeśa: He takes it from there and puts it on the plate before you eat?
Yaśodā-nandana: He keeps the salt in a separate bowl. When you require it he will give you only as much as you require.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is nice.
Hariśauri: That's why the bowl is there. That's what I intended to do, but I have to keep it away from the table.
Prabhupāda: The principle should be that you should not leave remnants of food. As soon as it is used, it should not be used more. Otherwise it is not possible to give up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. I am eating something not very superior, but if I get the chance of eating something superior, then I give up this inferior. So there is no question of making it vacant or void. To fill up the place with better thing.... So when you think of Kṛṣṇa, then you forget māyā. Otherwise you are entrapped with māyā. Why Kṛṣṇa says, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto? Mām eva ye prapadyante. This is wanted. As soon as you become anyābhilāṣī, then it becomes difficult. Where is that knife? Give me one amroot(?). Cut into pieces and get...
Prabhupāda: That we should be very careful, that we should think of Kṛṣṇa only, not of māyā, in everything. No more strength. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām [Bg. 9.14]. Avismṛti-kṛṣṇa-padāravindayoḥ kṣinoty abhadrāṇi. We are in the abhadra, māyā. But avismṛti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti. The thinking of māyā will gradually finish. Avismṛiti-kṛṣṇa-padaravindayoḥ kṣiṇoti... No, no, I said that you give these pieces, little, little. I'll do it myself. These pieces, this amroot(?), yes.
Hariśauri: This. I'll give it out.
Prabhupāda: So no vismṛti. Avismṛti. Vismṛti is ignorance. Avismṛti.
śṛṇvataṁ sva-kathāḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
hṛdy antaḥ-stho hy abhadrāṇi
vidhunoti suhṛt satām
All right. (end)
January 8, 1976, Nellore
Mahāṁsa: They say there are many old temples which need renovation, so they will spend the money for the renovation of old temples but not construct new temples.
Prabhupāda: That means they don't want expansion.
Prabhupāda: So what kind of committee?
Mahāṁsa: But that also is a farce, because they spent thirteen lakhs of rupees for construction of a temple in New York.
Prabhupāda: So New York, we have got so many temples. Let them here.
Mahāṁsa: They know. Anna(?) Rao, who is chairman.... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...temples (indistinct) foreign countries, then let them (indistinct) We shall.... How?
Mahāṁsa: They are very political. They want to take charge of everything that they give money for.
Mahāṁsa: They want to take charge of everything that they give money for. Just like these temples which they have in New York, they will be in charge of them. They are the pūjārīs and things...
Prabhupāda: That means they are constructing their own temple.
Mahāṁsa: Gaṇeśa and other deities also.
Prabhupāda: That means all these foolish ideas.
Mahāṁsa: Actually, Prabhupāda, it is only for.... They say it will ultimately be for the Hindu community there, for performing their marriages...
Prabhupāda: So who, Hindu, will go?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Actually, I have been to this Gaṇeśa temple. We went there for a program once. It's such a small piece of land in Queens. No one's going to go there. When we were there...
Harikeśa: (laughs) In Flushing.
Prabhupāda: In New York?
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they have a temporary one, but they're building a.... They've been building it for five years. They just have a layout of all...
Prabhupāda: What is their cult, this Tirupati committee?
Acyutānanda: Hinduism. Hinduism. Very.... No definition of that term now, Hinduism. Just like if we want to get on the radio, they'll say, "Well, there are so many minor sects. So if we give time for one, then everybody will want." But then, when we want some other aid, they say, "No, you're a majority group. We have to help the minority groups." So sometimes we are a minor sect and sometimes we are a majority.
Prabhupāda: (laughs) All fools, rascals, mūḍhas. [break] The Tirupati is a Vaiṣṇava temple, so they should encourage.... Vaisnavism means real religion. All other, bogus, cheating religions. That is.... Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo atra [SB 1.1.2]. Kaitava means cheating. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum [SB 7.5.31]. They do not know that. What is this land?
Indian man (1): The police superintendent's house.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Police superintendent. They are using the Deity's money, Prabhupāda, to maintain the universities. And in the universities they are teaching birth control and so many other things.
Prabhupāda: So why don't you take them into court?
Yaśodānandana: It's like fighting against the government.
Prabhupāda: They are the court means?
Harikeśa: In India?
Acyutānanda: In India it's encouraged. They get a reward.
Yaśodānandana: They give a radio.
Acyutānanda: They'll give you a prize, and the person who brings someone, he will get twenty-five rupees. And the doctor, after a month he gets a bonus.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. Now the government is thinking of having a policy by which if a person has more than two children he will not be promoted, he will not get raises—to discourage.
Acyutānanda: The Mohammedan community has refused, and Christian. So they feel...
Prabhupāda: So why not Hindus?
Acyutānanda: Hindus are doing. So they feel in a few generations the Mohammedan, Christian community will outnumber the Hindu.
Acyutānanda: Yes. Even to the point that Purī Śaṅkarācārya printed a book how everyone should have five children; all Hindus should have as many children as they want.
Indian man (1): Yes. Every day there you'll find Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Then why they are going against Bhagavad-gītā?
Indian man (1): That I don't know. Every day they are preaching...
Prabhupāda: Ask them that "What is the meaning of your reading Bhagavad-gītā daily if you go against it?"
Indian man (1): But they are not going, but the preachers who comes there, they are doing it.
Prabhupāda: What they are doing?
Acyutānanda: They bring in preachers to preach Bhagavad-gītā, but they themselves, they don't read Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: So preachers means third-class preachers. Anybody is allowed to speak, any nonsense? That is going on?
Devotee: How they are going against it, Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: You read Bhagavad-gītā? You do not know how they are going against?
Devotee: I'm not familiar with this.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you say, "I read Bhagavad-gītā?"
Devotee: I'm not familiar with Tirupati's practice.
Prabhupāda: Tirupati is establishing Gaṇeśa temple. That is against Bhagavad-gītā. Bhagavān says that kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānā yajanty anya-devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20]. The rascals who are very much lusty, lost their intelligence, they worship other demigods.
Acyutānanda: The Rāmānuja sannyāsīs have had all their authority taken away from them by these...
Acyutānanda: All their authority in the temples has been taken away by the government committee.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Acyutānanda: Just ritualistically in the morning the sannyāsī comes and opens the door. He holds the key. We met him at Rangaji.
Prabhupāda: Rāmānujācārya sannyāsīs, they have no influence over them.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: [break] ...to me that the actual purpose of this Tirupati government committee is eventually to do away with all religious function.
Harikeśa: How to take the money that's being donated.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: This is the beginning. They are making a show now, but eventually the plan will be to close all the temples.
Mahāṁsa: Nationalize all temples.
Harikeśa: Not close, 'cause you can make a lot of money. It's easier than enacting taxes.
Mahāṁsa: Just like banks.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, but when they don't become profitable then they'll close it. That's the point. Milk 'em dry. Instead of the state or the government being the servant of the Deity, they are making the Deity the servant of the government.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Money-earning servant.
Indian man (1): Yes, all temples.
Harikeśa: What about ours?
Mahāṁsa: Well, they're not so strong in the other states. Andhra Pradesh and...
Acyutānanda: Anywhere that there are big temples.
Prabhupāda: So you make this American property.
Harikeśa: How about English?
Prabhupāda: Our society is registered in America.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: In India presently we are registered in Bombay and all the other centers are branch offices. That's why in Hyderabad they haven't touched us. In Maharastra.... I think Maharastra will be the last state to do something of this type.
Mahāṁsa: If the government wants to do that, you can't do anything.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: But we are changing.... We are making our constitution look like a welfare society, so this way we may not fall under this.
Acyutānanda: We have to preach to them so that they understand the value of this movement.
Prabhupāda: [break] Europeans, they are coming here not for religion, but they are coming for the Kṛṣṇa culture. You have to make that. Religion they have already got, Christian. Why they should come?
Mahāṁsa: They will say that this Kṛṣṇa culture is Hinduism.
Prabhupāda: Then he's a rascal. Prove it in the court. Kṛṣṇa is not Hinduism. Never.... Is there anything in the Bhagavad-gītā that Kṛṣṇa says, "I am for the Hindus or for the Indians"?
Acyutānanda: The Hindu law is so elastic, anyone who calls himself a Hindu or who practices any branch...
Mahāṁsa: Or puts on tilaka.
Acyutānanda: Puts on tilaka, he may have the lowest character or the highest standard, anyone, he will be all considered a Hindu.
Prabhupāda: So this should be taken to court, on the Supreme Court.
Prabhupāda: No, no. And court can say anything, but then why not put it into the judgment of many judges?
Harikeśa: Then we have to establish what is Hinduism...
Acyutānanda: It is already established.
Prabhupāda: You can define anything. That does not mean that your definition is perfect. Actually we have to.... Who...? Suppose Hindu. So who is not accepting Bhagavad-gītā? But where is...? In the Bhagavad-gītā where is the mention of "Hindu"? Hm? Kṛṣṇa says that "I am the father of all living entities." So why do they say that this is Hindusim?
Acyutānanda: "Well, all religions say that they are the best. Jesus Christ says, 'Everyone who comes to me, they will get the grace of God.' So the same thing. But still they are Christians and you are Hindus."
Prabhupāda: So this cannot stay in the court. Kṛṣṇa's instruction is not for the Hindus. Nowhere it is mentioned.
Acyutānanda: Then why do you use in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness the Hindu caste marks, Hindus caste marks and tilakas? This is all Hinduism.
Prabhupāda: No, this is not Hinduism. Appears like Hindu. Just like you appear like an Indian sannyāsī, but you are not Indian.
Acyutānanda: The judge is wearing a white wig and a British suit. He's not British either.
Prabhupāda: No, we are clearly stating Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: That is your definition. Kṛṣṇa doesn't say.
Harikeśa: But my definition counts 'cause I'm in charge.
Prabhupāda: You can do any nonsense. That is.... Therefore you have to be taken to the court, that "How you can..."
Prabhupāda: "...talk like nonsense and do like nonsense? Then anyone can do any nonsense thing? Then who will control you?"
Harikeśa: That's the point.
Mahāṁsa: The chief justice himself was saying like that in Madras. Their opinion will come in their favor.
Prabhupāda: No, they can give opinion, but there is supreme court. There is international court. We shall go...
Mahāṁsa: International court?
Prabhupāda: Yes, it is country—"We are American. They are forcing us to become a Hindu." This is between country. You have to tackle with intelligence.
Mahāṁsa: It's become a world issue.
Acyutānanda: In most books about Hinduism they describe that Hinduism is a cult where they worship many gods and ultimately God is formless.
Acyutānanda: So we are against that. Then we are not Hindus even philosophically according to that.
Prabhupāda: Yes. We are against all so-called cheating religion. The Hinduism is also a cheating religion. We are preaching Bhāgavata, and Bhāgavata beginning that "We have kicked out all cheating religion." What is cheating religion? That one has to understand. And Bhāgavata says, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇitam: [SB 6.3.19] "Religion means the order given by God." If you do not know who is God, "imperson," then where is your religion? We have to tackle things.
Gopāla Kṛṣṇa: They will consult all the standard dictionaries about Kṛṣṇa's definition and all the...
Prabhupāda: Dictionary is not the standard. The standard is the book itself. That is our preaching. You may bring some dictionary made by some fools. No. We have to take reference. Therefore we are presenting Bhagavad-gītā As It Is.
Acyutānanda: Well, even Jesus Christ just said, "I am for all," but there is Christianity.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. Either God or God's representative, He is for everyone. Suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 5.29]. That is the definition of sādhu. Titikṣavaḥ karunikaḥ suhṛdaṁ sarva-bhūtānām [SB 3.25.21]. A saintly person..., as God is for everyone, a saintly person is for everyone. Why he should be for Hindu or Muslim or Christian? That is the definition of saintly person. Suhrdaḥ. Suhṛdaḥ means well-wisher. So either Christ or any Vaiṣṇava, he is well-wisher for everyone. [break] ...suhṛdaḥ sarva-bhūtānām. We are preaching all over the world and they are appreciating.
Harikeśa: So many others have preached Hinduism but have no result.
Prabhupāda: No result. Why they should become Hindu?
Prabhupāda: But who cares for Rāmakrishna Mission? Hindu monk, but who cares for the Rāmakrishna Mission? For the last eighty-five years they are working. How many Hindus they have made? Simply bogus propaganda. They advertise that "We have made all Americans..." But where the Americans? They picked up two American ladies, that's all. Where is the Hindu sādhus eating meat?
Indian man (1): It's a name of the...
Prabhupāda: Foreign devotees, they are joining this movement not because it is a Hindu culture. They take it as a real spiritual culture. Otherwise why, for the last hundred, two hundred years, the Hindu sannyāsīs, yogis, were going there? Who did accept it? Did anybody? The Rāmakrishna Mission, Hindu monk, within the eighty-five years, how many Hindus they have made? You can count maybe a dozen only. Huh? Did they make any Hindus, European, American young boys? And it is the Hindu custom that sannyāsīs eat meat?
Prabhupāda: Drink wine.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...drinking wine and eating meat, the next stage is illicit sex. Is that the business of the Hindu monk? There are sampradāyas, Rāmānuja sampradāya, Śaṅkara sampradāya. But where the Hindu monk drinks and eats meat? They have introduced it. Is that Hinduism?
Prabhupāda: Nowadays everyone has become impersonal.
Prabhupāda: [break] ...pure Vaiṣṇava. What is that?
Indian man (1): House of a life member.
Prabhupāda: Oh. [break] ...take to our principles, these things will be automatically be finished. Na ca daivāt paraṁ balam.
Vasughoṣa: Hinduism department in Indonesia. So they've divided the land..., you know, the different religions into different departments, and they have one man who studied in Benares. He's in charge of the whole country for Hinduism and Buddhism.
Prabhupāda: So why they do not allow our?
Vasughosa: No, actually they allow us. They allow our society, but it's such a corrupt country that at any moment they could kick us out if they want. They have no principle except money.
Prabhupāda: Just like Africa.
Vasughosa: Yes. But the man seems to be a little intelligent, a little knowledgeable. I met him. He seems to be a little.... [break] They try to renovate temples there. They are very old temples like in India and they have...
Prabhupāda: [break] ...they do not give for so-called religion, it is better. They are not spoiling the money.
Acyutānanda: The head of that Viśva-Hindu went to Delhi to get tax exemption. So they said, "You drop the name Hindu." They said, "No, we will never drop the name Hindu. Even if you don't give us tax exemption, we will be without the tax exempt but we will never give up our name Hindu."
Prabhupāda: [break] Whatever whimsically you make your law, that is law. Actually they are not fighting. Hindu law means Manu-saṁhitā. So who is pressing them that "We don't require any law except this"? And where is that Hindu, strong Hindu? Hindu means Manu-saṁhitā. [break] ...mānave prāhur. This Manu. Original instruction is coming from Manu. [break] ...the word Manu, the word mānava has come. Just like he has started that mānava-dharma. Mānava-dharma means Manu. That he does not know. From Manu, mānava has come, just like from sādhu, sādhava has come. They do not know even grammar. These leaders, they do not know even grammar. [break] ...chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and take prasādam.
Harikeśa: If the government is giving them free homes and we're giving them free prasādam, why should they work?
Prabhupāda: They should work for Kṛṣṇa.
Harikeśa: But there is one economist. I think you've quoted him, John Kenneth Galbraith. He says that if there's no.... If somebody is supplied with a place to sleep and something to eat, why should he work? That he won't work unless there is some motivation. If he's forced to work, he will work. Otherwise he won't work.
Prabhupāda: No. Your preaching is not meant for creating a lazy class of men. You have to engage them in Kṛṣṇa consciousness business. That is preaching.
Mahāṁsa: Then you feed them prasādam.
Prabhupāda: Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa and then give him prasādam. He will be automatically purified, and offer himself for service.
Harikeśa: So they have to chant first.
Acyutānanda: Then they will say, "Well, you are proselytizing by rice."
Prabhupāda: I am not proselytizing. I am bringing him...
Acyutānanda: Unless they take to your religion...
Prabhupāda: ...to his original consciousness.
Acyutānanda: Unless they follow you, then you won't feed them. You are starving them until they...
Prabhupāda: No, no, no. We shall go on. Chanting will also go on. Both things.
Acyutānanda: That was the article of the CARE, I think. They will give food, but you cannot use it to proselytize.
Acyutānanda: Like in Guntur, in a Christian hospital, in the maternity ward they would not release the baby to the parents until they converted to Christianity.
Acyutānanda: In Guntur. So they did it to one brāhmaṇa family, and he brought it to the court because he was more orthodox, and they were.... Only one or two articles came in the newspaper. It was hushed up.
Harikeśa: It takes ten years for the court to decide.
Acyutānanda: Well, immediately the police ordered that it had to be released. Or they put.... Just like the Mohammedan water, they put some bread in a well in a place like this, and then they can say, "You are all Christian now because you have drunk the bread that we have put there."
Prabhupāda: They are doing like that here?
Acyutānanda: Yes. In Europe, when Christianity first came to Constantine, the priests would stay in the top of a river, and they marched an army through the river, and the priest put the holy water, and when the army came on the other side they said, "Now you've all been baptized. You're all Christians." Mass conversion. [break] ...Hindu groups are mixing Hinduism and Indian nationality, it's fascism. That was also the government's...
Acyutānanda: The Hindu groups. That was the point that enraged the government. The same paṇḍitas with the prāyaścitta, they don't like the Mohammedans, they don't like the Christians. They say, "You have created Pakistan, so all the Mohammedans should go there. This is Hindustan."
Prabhupāda: Murvi(?) meat here?
Indian man (1): Not everyone did.
Indian man (1): Mostly. Nowadays it is a fashion to eat when the brāhmaṇas take in a house.
Indian man (1): Yes, they take it.
Indian man (1): Yes, most of them. [break]
Indian man (1): But according to.... [break]
Prabhupāda: ...not vegetarian. We are neither nonvegetarian. We eat kṛṣṇa-prasādam. Kṛṣṇa says, "Give me this food." Patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ [Bg. 9.26]. So we offer Him, and then we eat it, so we have nothing to do with vegetarian and nonvegetarian. If Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give Me flesh," then we can eat flesh also. But Kṛṣṇa does not say that.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Śrīla Prabhupāda? I have heard one person say that patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ doesn't include other things. There are many other things that we offer Kṛṣṇa besides patraṁ puṣpaṁ phalaṁ toyaṁ.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Hm?
Prabhupāda: So if you like, you can do that.
Prabhupāda: (chuckles) What directly He says, you have to take. And if you interpret, that can be interpreted.
Acyutānanda: They have rewritten the Bible, "Thou shalt not murder."
Prabhupāda: [break] ...can be used as paper weight. (laughter) [break] ...use anything for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but we have no such instruction. (end)
January 8, 1976, Nellore
Prabhupāda: This is idea. Mano-rathena, by mental speculation, asato dhavato, they will come to materialism. As soon as they will hover over mental concoction, they will remain in the material pool, because mind is subtle form of matter.
Acyutānanda: Also, in their evidences by which they base their dialectic discussions, have they regarded the Vedic scriptures? They have avoided them very conveniently.
Prabhupāda: No, there is no question of dialectic discussion. Suppose I am discussing, you are discussing something, but if I am imperfect, you are imperfect, what is the value of such discussion? That is the point. The party discussing something, whether he is perfect? If he is not perfect, then go on discussing. We first of all say that any conditioned soul is defective, and that is admitted. They say, "We are not perfect." "I think," they say. "In my opinion," they say. Never they say, the so-called scientists, "definite." And they cannot say it.
Mahamsa: That is like Dr. Frog's philosophy when they speculate.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Simply speculation. So that kind of discussion, what is the value?
Prabhupāda: If some children discuss some serious subject matter, what is the value? And they are all children in the cradle of nature, that's all. Prakṛteḥ kriya.... Therefore it is word, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni [Bg. 3.27]. Just like children—"Ha! Sit down here"—he has to sit down. Then where is his freedom to discuss? Prakṛti says that "You sit down here. Don't go there." He has to accept. Then what is the value of discussion?
Acyutānanda: Mainly, these Karl Marx, they were angry at the Christian church for exploiting the poor masses, and that's the reason...
Prabhupāda: This is our...
Acyutānanda: ...so he has attacked. He has taken vengeance on this.
Prabhupāda: That they are doing. Still they are doing. Just like you said, some sprinkling water. They have no philosophy and they violate everything, what is stated there in Bible. Now you say that "Thou shall not kill;" they say, "Thou shall not murder." They are molding. Now this homosex they are sanctioning, man-to-man marriage. They are sanctioning abortion.
Acyutānanda: Yes. Two homosexuals were married by a priest.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have a church where the priests are homosexuals and the attending people are homosexual.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Now they have churches for homosex. That means the priest is a homosexual, and the persons who come are homosexuals. A special church for homosexuals.
Prabhupāda: Just see. Is that religion?
Yaśodānandana: The simple fact that the Christians have to sprinkle water to convert means that they do not have any potency to by philosophy, to preach to them with strong philosophy.
Prabhupāda: There is no.... So, go on reading.
Harikesa: I'll backspace two sentences.
Acyutānanda: [break] "...have allowed us to wither away these different countries, and the religionists, they are keeping all the food. They are not distributing it."
Yaśodānandana: If we say that the Russia has no grains, they will say that they are big wheat producers in the southern part. They may counteract by saying, "We also produce..."
Acyutānanda: They had to purchase wheat from America.
Gurukeśa: Russia is importing its food grains now.
Prabhupāda: So why they cannot produce sufficient, such a big country?
Gurukeśa: And Eastern Europe, which is also communist, gets all its supplies from...
Prabhupāda: No, what is their explanation. Russia is the biggest country.
Prabhupāda: Then? Then you have to depend on rain, and when we say, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ... Hm? And yajñād bhavati parjanyaḥ [Bg. 3.14]. That means, rascal, you take one side, that ardha-kukuti-nyāya. Cut the chicken half, and separate the mouth—it is expensive—and keep the rear side. You get eggs. (laughter) So this is ardha-kukuṭi-nyāya. The rascal does not know that if you separate the mouth there will be no egg.
Gurukeśa: They say that's depending upon nature. But they do not know who...
Acyutānanda: The word nature should be condemned. That.... No scientific-minded person can say the word nature.
Prabhupāda: No, they do not know what is nature. Nature is an instrument, and there must be an operator. So that they do not know, the operator. Just like a child is thinking the motorcar is going automatically. He does not know there is a driver. The child sees that the airplane is flying. They think it is automatically going. And there is a pilot, he does not know. Similarly, these rascals, they are studying nature, but nature is an instrument only. It is being operated by Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. They have practical experience that without operator a machine cannot work. In the huge machine, how it is working unless there is operator? That they do not know.
Gurukeśa: That's what they never trying to find.
Prabhupāda: Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Find out this verse. Mūḍhaḥ nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param avyayam. Mūḍha. Therefore they are all mūḍhas. So we are not going to be misled by the mūḍhas. That is not possible. We take the instruction of the topmost intelligent person, Kṛṣṇa. I think our Svarūpa Dāmodara has said that. Where is that book? He has given: "Kṛṣṇa, the topmost scientist." Yes. "Perceiving the supreme scientist, Śrī Kṛṣṇa." He has given this article.
Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyāsa is not defective like other living beings?
Acyutānanda: How do we know that Vedavyasa is not...
Prabhupāda: He is not defective because he is speaking what he has heard from Nārada. Therefore he is not defective. Just like we are speaking. We are not perfect. We are also ordinary human being, but people are taking that "Bhaktivedanta Swami has done wonder." What is that wonder? I am speaking Bhagavad-gītā as it is, that's all.
Acyutānanda: Like the Mormon religion in America...
Prabhupāda: No, no, don't bring any other.... That is...
Acyutānanda: He claimed that an angel...
Prabhupāda: If you accept.... We are taking from God. Kṛṣṇa instructed Brahmā, Brahmā instructed Nārada, Nārada instructed Vyāsadeva, and therefore we are taking.
Acyutānanda: So it is a novel. Like Shakespeare wrote Hamlet...
Prabhupāda: Yes. It may be novel for you because we take you as a mūḍha. We don't give any credit. We say.... Find out this, mūdho nābhijānāti mām ebhyaḥ param.
Prabhupāda: Hm hm.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/conversations/1976/jan