Prabhupada: If he does not read Bhagavatam, then he remains a rascal.

Harisauri: Anything apart from the Vedas is not really knowledge.

Prabhupada: No. May be some fragmental knowledge, but if one wants full knowledge in life, then he must read Bhagavatam. Bhagavad-gita is the preliminary ABCD, and then let him read Bhagavatam. They have been taught like that. Andha yathandhaih. They are passing as great leader for giving men wrong direction and spoil the life. He cannot save himself and he can spoil himself very nicely.

Harisauri: People's minds are so flickering. There's so much disturbance.

Prabhupada: The mind is the first creation for material enjoyment. From the mind, senses are created, five senses for knowledge-gathering and five senses for working, and five airs within the body. In this way the mind and fifteen. This is called sodasa upacara, sixteen. And then the ingredients, panca-maha-bhuta. Then intelligence, ahankara, false ego. These twenty-four, combination. And atma, jiva, and then Krsna-twenty-six. The twenty-six combination is this body, mind, self, soul, Supersoul, everything. So I am ready.

Harisauri: I think it's just a little early yet, Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Hm?

Harisauri: Just a little early. It's still dark. I think ten minutes should be all right. Has this been used?

Prabhupada: Yes. [break] ...is in ignorance. Combination of matter and soul, moving animals. Some of them are standing as trees and plant, and some of them are moving. Where is the science to study? What is your value of knowledge? Hm? If they do not know the fundamental things, then what is the value of their knowledge? Simply observation, superficial, externally. There is good scope. They are receiving these books. We should take chance of preaching this Bhagavatam, and the classes should be held especially.... No, the religious classes are already there. Let them study Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita. And they will accept it. They are not fools. Simply we have to introduce it. The Western people, they are not fools, but misguided. So you take the charge of guiding them; then Krsna consciousness movement will be successful. They will appreciate, they will take it up and reform, and their life will be successful. And if they utilize their intelligence how to reduce population and kill child within the womb and "There is no soul in the womb. When they come out then the soul becomes"what is this nonsense? Unless there is soul, how it becomes manifest?

Harisauri: It's obvious. If the body is growing within the womb, there must be life there.

Prabhupada: The same process is going on from the very beginning. A body is formed and it develops. The child is born.... The same process is going on. How do you say there is no soul? If there is no soul, how it has developed within the womb? Such rascals, they are passing on as big scientists. What is the reason they don't believe that there is no soul?

Harikesa: They have really no argument.

Prabhupada: Just see. All dogmatic. All dogmatic foolishness they are propagating, and it is going on in the name of vijnana, science.

Harisauri: If they admitted the existence...

Prabhupada: Vijnana should be enunciated, vigata-jnana. Vigata, you understand vigata? Vigata means lost. So vijnana, you can make two meanings. Visista-jnana. Visista, vi means.... Visista means a full explained knowledge. You can make this meaning. And another meaning you can do. Vi means vigata, lost. So vigata-jnana. Their vijnana means vigata-jnana, lost of all knowledge. That is the word given in Bhagavad-gita, mayayaprahrta-jnanah. This is vijnana. You can explain in this way also. mayayapa.... maya has taken away their knowledge, and that is going on as vijnana, science. maya has made them rascal, and they are presenting themselves as the man of advanced knowledge. A rascal is representing himself as advanced in knowledge. That is the defect of Kali-yuga.

Harisauri: Advanced demoniac knowledge.

Prabhupada: Yes. Advanced demon. Actually they are advanced demons, asura, asuri-bhavam asritah, being infected with the contamination of atheism, godlessness. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna.... (chants japa)

Harisauri: They're actually very expert at avoiding the real issues.

Prabhupada: That is.... A child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire and if somebody says, "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiranyakasipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiranyakasipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that "The devatas, they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and then they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahma that "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that "I shall become immortal." Brahma flatly said, "No, no, this is not possible. I am not immortal. How can I give you immortality?" But he would not hear even Brahma. He thought that, "In an indirect way I shall befool this man, Brahma." "All right, sir, then give me this benediction." "What is that?" "I'll not die in the land." "All right." "Not in the water." "Yes." "Not in the air." "No, yes." So he thought that "The three things finished. Then where shall I die? There are three things only, land, water, sky. So he has given me benediction I shall not die anywhere of these three. So I have cheated now." And then "I shall not die in daytime." "Yes." "I shall not die in nighttime." But maya dictated that there is another space or another place between day and night. (laughs) That he forgot. That is called sandhya. That is accepted. But he forgot that. And Krsna is more intelligent. He.... Hiranyakasipu was not killed in daytime or nighttime. He was killed in the sandhya. And so far land, sky, and water is concerned, that also was played with tricks, that He killed him on the lap. You cannot say it is land; you cannot say it is sky, you cannot say it is water. So Krsna is so kind that His devotee, Brahma, has given him this benediction.... Without touching all those points. Hiranyakasipu could not accuse Brahma that "Sir, you have cheated me." "No. Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning. 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you."

Harisauri: It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. [break] ...to be more intelligent than Krsna. That is.... (laughs) But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mudha.

Harikesa: Moghasa.

Prabhupada: Ah. Moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jnana-vicetasah [Bg. 9.12]. [break] .... Krsna says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your..." This is going on. Krsna is giving good advice. He'll not accept it. So Krsna is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going.... That facility is maya, his mind and maya. He is desiring. That mind is also given by maya, so that he can punish him very severely. So maya has given us mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility."

Harisauri: Mind is an agent of punishment.

Prabhupada: Yes, this material mind. You see a madman. He is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all.

Harisauri: Constant anxiety.

Prabhupada: Useless. Killing himself.

Harisauri: Sometimes a person who goes mad, they have to put them in a padded cell so that they don't harm themselves.

Prabhupada: Yes. Otherwise he will create disadvantage to others. This is the cellwhole material world. You keep yourself within this cell and go on with your madness of mind. Still, Vedic instruction is there that if you do this way, then you go to that planet. If you do this way, then you go to here. Still, there is good. But within that, Krsna is saying, mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam [Bg. 9.25], "But you can come to Me also." But he will not take that instruction.

Harisauri: Coming to Krsna means they have to give up all their own personal desires.

Prabhupada: Yes, everything is there; simply we have to accept it. If we don't accept it, we suffer. What can be done? If you accept the path of going to hell in spite of higher authorities' instruction, then who can save me? That is going on.

Harisauri: Rascal.

Prabhupada: He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru. That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues. They think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Krsna? That is not possible.

Harikesa: There's undercover agents in everybody.

Prabhupada: Everywhere, every direction.

Harisauri: The land, the sky, the...

Prabhupada: Everything.

Harisauri: Sun, moon, everything is witness.

Prabhupada: They are bearing the witness. And especially He is sitting within the heart of everyone, isvarah sarva... How can you deceive Him?

Harisauri: Krsna knows more about what's going on than we do.

Prabhupada: Anumanta upadrsta. Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata [Bg. 13.3]. How these rascals think that "I can deceive God"?

Harikesa: Mayayapahrta-jnana.

Prabhupada: Hm. mayacyuta.

Harikesa: Vigata. Vigata-jnana.

Prabhupada: Vigata-jnana, yes. Vijnana.

Harisauri: Like children playing, they think that they've become a king or this or that, and they're completely absorbed.

Prabhupada: Why children? The children, the father also.

Harikesa: I think they're all ready. (end)