Morning Walk

January 12, 1976, Bombay
Prabhupada: ...finalization. Huh? Festival?
Gopala Krsna: Finalized the dates of the festival.
Prabhupada: Or by telephone. What is this?
Gopala Krsna: Actually, I have to know today whether he's got the Ramaleela ground or not.
Prabhupada: What is that ground?
Gopala Krsna: Ramaleela ground for the festival. He was trying for that. [break]
Prabhupada: ...is also stopped?
Devotee (1): No, no, Srila Prabhupada. It's going on. [break]
Gopala Krsna: One is Dr. Patel, and another man comes with him every morning. [break]
Prabhupada: ...racing their cars for years together. And as soon as one car comes in our hand, within one hour finish and stand: "See that I have got a car." Make a show that "Here is a car." And for use, beg others, "Please give me your car." This is going on. [break] That Caitya-guru.
Gopala Krsna: Caitya-guru. He is on the terrace doing his rounds. He is refusing to sign that letter, but he has turned over the possessions to me.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Gopala Krsna: He has turned over...
Prabhupada: No, no, he must sign the.... Otherwise we shall have to inform. He must sign. He must sign. Otherwise we shall have to take steps.
Gopala Krsna: He says, "First you prove that I'm guilty." But I said...
Prabhupada: But this is your charge. You say that "I have not done it." Present him and you say in writing that "I have never done it. Now I shall do it." Otherwise we shall have to do the needful. [break] ...go to Mayapur. He is ready to go to Mayapur?
Gopala Krsna: He is ready to go to Mayapur but not right away. But he'll join you in Mayapur.
Prabhupada: Huh? No, he has to go with me.
Gopala Krsna: Yes. Okay.
Prabhupada: [break] That Bengali gentleman?
Dr. Patel: Bhattacarya. I don't know him. He is staying here?
Prabhupada: No. Where he is staying? You do not know. So did he come today in the mangala-arati?
Dr. Patel: No, I don't know him, and I don't think I have seen him.
Devotee (2): Bhattacharya doesn't come to mangala-arati.
Dr. Patel: ...the all Patels are giving you right now from Africa.
Prabhupada: But not here.
Dr. Patel: Ninety percent of the.... Here they are very poor. Those who are in States are rich.
Prabhupada: You are not poor. Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: We are poor as compared to.... We just live, no? Three percent(?) we acquire for our status.(?) We don't require much money.
Prabhupada: [break] ...death.
Dr. Patel: Death is an artifact. There is no death. That is what Arjuna thought, and now, still, sir, you say they are dead. What is death? There is no death?
Prabhupada: Arjuna's thought is different. That is Arjuna's thought. I mean these people, these materialists...
Dr. Patel: Acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam akledyo asosya eva ca.
Prabhupada: ...they are actually dying and they are flying also.
Dr. Patel: Who is dying? The body. The body is nothing but the earth.
Prabhupada: They have no such conclusions. We have got, that is a different thing, but they are trying to kill the mosquitoes to save themselves, but they cannot save. That is my point. They cannot save. When the "death mosquito" will come, he has to accept it. That he cannot manu...
Dr. Patel: He, after all, is what we call ego. When the ego dies, then, sir, there is no he or she or mosquito or man or anything, sir.
Prabhupada: But he is not that man. He is trying to kill the mosquito to save himself from death. But that he cannot. That is my proposal.
Dr. Patel: Yes. He could at least save the American government from catastrophe, how to drain before finishing this Panama Canal. The Panama Canal is an engineering feat, sir. The two sides, seas, are uneven, and they have made locks in the.... You must have seen that. No? They have locks. One side, sea is higher than the other, and they allow the ships to get to the middle lock, then pump in water and then bring on that side. Engineers must be knowing, you know. We had to study all these things, medical history.
Prabhupada: So many medicines, vitamin D, vitamin C...
Dr. Patel: All medicines, sir, vitamins, and all even hormones...
Prabhupada: But why not discover something that you will save from death?
Dr. Patel: But what is death, after all? Our forefathers found it out...
Prabhupada: Then why you are trying to live?
Dr. Patel: We want to make you live in a good way so that you can think well and solve your life. That is what we are doing. We don't want to keep your, this body going on for all the time. Who says, sir? I do not think that is the aim of the medical profession, to keep...
Prabhupada: But they have to accept because they cannot do it.
Dr. Patel: We give you health, sir, from the disease. We don't...
Prabhupada: You cannot give health. Why he is dying?
Dr. Patel: Dying is not health. We talk of health and disease, not of the death and life.
Prabhupada: No. Unless there is some disease you do not die.
Dr. Patel: No, what is disease? Disease is something...
Prabhupada: Again you are coming to...
Dr. Patel: ...that is not physiological. The end of physiology is death.
Prabhupada: So why you are trying to cure it?
Dr. Patel: We don't try to cure it. We.... According to our whim, we try to help nature's natural process. Who knows? We may be going against nature, for all that. We don't know.
Prabhupada: No, no. What is the value of your health if you do not save him?
Dr. Patel: The value of the health is being found out the whole over.
Prabhupada: That is, I am asking you. (laughs)
Dr. Patel: You know it better. Why ask me? Modern science is especially to give chemistry and biology. They have learned so much. I mean, practically they have really reached that position which the vaisesika sastra reached in past. Vaisesika is one of the six darsanas. They also tried to prove the existence of God and God creation by that method, because they also believed in Vedas. We are also trying to do the same thing by our own way. And real modern scientists have found out that nothing can happen without God. But you.... In your time, when you were a student, scientists were atheists. Now scientists are not atheists, sir. So I beseech you to remove that idea from you.
Prabhupada: [break] Well, impersonal philosophers are more dangerous than the atheist.
Dr. Patel: That you think.
Prabhupada: No, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says.
Dr. Patel: Let's not discuss about this, not go into it.
Prabhupada: He said, veda na maniya bauddha haila nastika. Vedasraya bauddha-vada nastika ke adhika. We accept atheist, one who does not believe in the Vedas. Therefore we have rejected the Buddha philosophy. They could not exist in India. But those who are preaching atheism through Vedas, impersonal, they are more dangerous.
Dr. Patel: That impersonal preaching is not atheism.
Indian man: For example?
Prabhupada: Anyone impersonalist"God has no form." There are so many rascals. So he has got form to speak against God, and God has no form. This is going on all over the world. He speaks against the God, that "God is not a person." So he is person, and God is not person. Just see their foolishness. He is made by God, and he is a person, and who made him, he is not a person. This is foolishness.
Indian man: Yes, there's a good sense in it.
Prabhupada: Everything.... But therefore they are senseless, that "I am person, my father is person..."
Indian man: No, my father is not my person.
Prabhupada: No, no. It is understood that I am person, my father is person, his father is person, and the supreme father is not a person. Just see. If the supreme father is not a person, then wherefrom these personal fathers came here? Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. "Mam"this is person. The mudhas cannot understand that the supreme father is a person. Therefore Arjuna, at the, when he understood Bhagavad-gita, he declared that "It is very, very difficult..." (aside:) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Hare Krsna. "...to understand Your personality. It is very, very difficult." Arjuna has said. And he has accepted Him as person, purusam sasvatam: "You are eternally person." Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam, purusam sasvatam divyam adyam [Bg. 10.12]. These things are there. The real understanding is there. And he said, "This is.... This is accepted by Vyasadeva, Narada, Devala." Svayam caiva: "And You are also speaking." Then where is the question of imperson? Hare Krsna. And therefore He, Krsna, says bahunam janmanam ante jnanvan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. "You are person; I surrender unto You"this knowledge comes after many, many births of this impersonalist. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma [Bg. 7.19]. "That great mahatma is very rare." So one who believes and accepts the Supreme as person, he immediately becomes a mahatma. Otherwise he remains duratma.
Dr. Patel: Small atma. He's a mahatma. He's a small atma.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: Who believe in that.
Prabhupada: Believe not. Not only believe, but convinced, "Yes, vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]." Then he is mahatma.
Dr. Patel: Everything is Vasudeva. There is nothing excepting God. In that way there is no maya because maya is also a part of God.
Indian man: In bhakti you surrender. Then you get the jnana.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Indian man: After bhakti you get the jnana. (Hindi) We mudhas, we go on argument, but unless and until we mudhas are convinced, we will remain mudhas. We can't help it.
Prabhupada: There are big mudhas who are never convinced.
Dr. Patel: Like me. (laughs)
Prabhupada: No, no, listen...
Dr. Patel: I will argue with you instead of.... Maharaja, you see, I have.... Again we had a very great altercation within myself. I was a.... [break] I may tell you, I have studied the Vaisnava's philosophy from various angles. The last two years I have been making a very deep study of it, and I am a student of this theologian philosophy. I think he is absolutely right, that complete surrendering to God by bhakti...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: ...you get complete jnana.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's it.
Dr. Patel: I was.... Before I thought it was not so, but it is so.
Indian man: But as you are convinced, but I am not convinced.
Dr. Patel: Therefore you read like me and you will be convinced. You study like me, go to temple...
Prabhupada: Then you are still a mudha.
Indian man: Yes, I am still a mudha. According to you, I am a mudha. But according to me, though I am mudha, but I don't feel that I am mudha. "The man who knows not but who knows not that he knows not, he's a first-class fool." Like that.
Prabhupada: That is the great problem of the mudhas, that he is mudha, but he is thinking, "I am not mudha."
Indian man: Yes, that is the point. Everybody knows it.
Dr. Patel: Now, you see, impersonal and personal God, I am talking. I.... Perhaps you may not like. You know, the people.... You see, impersonal God is nothing but the emanation of God. As he said, the brahmajyoti, or what as he once gave me that example, that sun and its rays, if you put a sort of mirror, you see the same sun there through the rays. Don't you? In the same way, you may see God everywhere that way, but real God is sun. Like that, God is there, but His emanation is Brahman. Parabrahman is God; Brahman is jyoti.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Am I right?
Prabhupada: Very good. Thank you very much.
Devotees: Jaya!
Dr. Patel: So you go to Brahman but not to Parabrahman. When you try to realize Parabrahman, that is personal God; Brahman is impersonal God. Right, sir?
Prabhupada: And He says, brahmano 'ham pratistha: "Brahmajyoti is emanating from Me." Brahmajyoti, although impersonal, it is coming from Krsna.
Dr. Patel: So I will one day preach in your place. (laughs) I will.... (Hindi) I was a professor in college, and I have got a knack of explaining everything. Yes.
Indian man: So, all right. I will be your sisya.
Dr. Patel: And then you become his sisya, that's all, indirect sisya. For the last two year I have been only reading all the great writings of Vaisnava saints and Vaisnava acaryas because I read a lot of Sankaracarya and others, and even, even postwhat do you callBuddhist philosophy, different lines, half a dozen of them. When I read the Vaisnavas' teaching I think that.... Personally, you see, there are so many children, but your own son, you say, "This is my son." The personal relationship, when established, takes you far ahead psychologically. Am I right, sir? That is how personal God...
Prabhupada: And if you take care of your own son, nobody will criticize you that "Why are you taking care of your own son, not others? Nobody will.... That is natural. That is explained in the Bhagavad.... Samo 'ham sarva-bhutesu
[Bg. 9
.29]. He is equal to everyone. But one who is a devotee, "I take special care."
Dr. Patel: "He is in Me, and I am in him."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is why all the great bhaktas, all the great, I mean, say, Narsi Meta(?) or Mirabai, they have worshiped personal God and merged in personal God in toto. Their, that what we call that ego is washed away by the sacred, I mean, this thing of God. Our impersonal philosophers are there, but they are not so well known. That is why he said that personal God and, I mean, worshiping personal God, you are immediately raised to that status from where you will be able to get jnana.
Prabhupada: [break] There was one teacher in my school, he used to say that "One who is slow to understand, he is slow to forget also."
Dr. Patel: Yes, that's a fact. It's really a fact.
Prabhupada: And one who understands quickly and he forgets quickly. So Dr. Patel has understood slowly. So he'll never forget it.
Dr. Patel: But I...
Indian man: Actually that is a fact.
Dr. Patel: I have been very critical within myself. All my.... All my studies, medical, otherwise, I have been always...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, yes, critical...
Dr. Patel: I have studied even geology.
Prabhupada: Critical student, that is...
Dr. Patel: Out of just fun, what it is about. I am a student all round.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. (Hindi) [break] It is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita, tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena [Bg. 4.34]. Pariprasna is required, but after pranipata.
Dr. Patel: Surrendering yourself. In school also they say if you develop a sort of a liking for your teacher, a sort of a reverence is developed in you, and then you get knowledge much quicker.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: If you take your teacher to be a servant of yours, then you won't...
Prabhupada: That is Vedic principle. Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau [SU 6.23]. Then he'll get knowledge. Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: That is why guru brahma gurur visnur guruh saksad mahesvarah.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is fact. Saksad dharitvena samasta-sastraih. Caitanya Mahaprabhu also says, guru-krsna-krpa: "By the mercy of guru and Krsna."
Dr. Patel: Guru is a go-between God and we ourselves.
Prabhupada: Yes, via media, via media.
Dr. Patel: He holds your hand and gives that hand to God. That is guru. That is what I think. Am I right in a way?
Prabhupada: Transparent medium. [break] (Hindi) ...realization.
Dr. Patel: Realization is more important. Realization. Unless you realize, all is anti-thought.(?) Saksad paro gatim.
Prabhupada: Just like I am seeing you; you are seeing me.
Dr. Patel: That is saksad...
Prabhupada: That is...
Dr. Patel: Just as you know that hydrogen and oxygen when brought together forms water. But then you make it and see it...
Prabhupada: [break] ...tato bhavah sadhakanam ayam premnah pradurbhave bhavet kramah. [break] Vaisnava doesn't make any discrimination that "He is Hindu," "He is Muslim," "He is this and that." He takes everyone as servant of Krsna. [break] In India the caste brahmanas criticize me that "Swami Bhaktivedanta is putting Hindu dharma ruin." Yes.
Dr. Patel: Bhagavad-gita never.... I think catur-varnyam maya srstam guna-karma-vibhagasah [Bg. 4.13]. Not by birth vibhagasah.
Prabhupada: Never.
Dr. Patel: It is by guna and karma.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Not by position of birth.
Prabhupada: No, it is clearly explained by Narada Muni, that one has to be judged by the qualification. If the qualification.... Yady anyatrapi disetah. If the qualification is somewhere else, then he must be designated by that qualification. Just like.... doctor's.... (Hindi) [break] ...qualification of medical man and you are practicing, that's all. Who is concerned with your caste?
Dr. Patel: So catur-varna is according to guna and karma.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Not according to his birth and position of money, birth and wealth.
Prabhupada: And anyone can be trained up to be qualified. That medical science is open to everyone. It is not that "Such and such caste can come here." No, anyone, if you are qualified, that's all. They are accusing me that I am ruining Hinduism, but they have ruined the Hinduism.
Dr. Patel: You say, sir, "The Bengalis have ruined Hinduism; I am salvaging it." Another Bengali is salvaging the ruined Hinduism. Bengalis ruined the.... Whole Bengal, half of Bengal turned Islamic and this because of these brahmanas.
Prabhupada: That is everywhere, in Punjab also. Punjab also, the same thing.
Dr. Patel: One man was cast out and he was not taken back, so he converted half of the Bengal into Islam.
Prabhupada: No. Our Krsna consciousness movement is: "Doesn't matter what you are. Now you become trained up. Whatever you are, it doesn't matter."
Dr. Patel: But so many Muslims have become very good, I mean, Vaisnava saints.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: There are some examples in Vrndavana.
Prabhupada: And I have got many disciples.
Dr. Patel: Vrndavana, there are two, three of them, I mean, not here, but Arabics.
Prabhupada: Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu converted many Pathans to become Vaisnava. He changed the name. One Pathan was named Ramadasa. Just like I have changed Ramjan into Rama-ranjana, Attar into Atreya Rsi.
Dr. Patel: Atreya. You have got such chelas there?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: No, I think we must.... If.... Now the modern world is getting smaller and smaller and, I mean, the Islamic countries are also getting women with the modern sciences and...
Prabhupada: When I was in, what is called? Tehran. Tehran. Many Muslims were coming.
Dr. Patel: They are all Aryans. They are more enlightened people.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: In fact, they were the real Aryans. Iran.
Prabhupada: Iran, yes, Aryan.
Dr. Patel: That Gatha (Zoroastrim Scriptures) is practically sixty percent Sanskrit language.
Prabhupada: Gatha?
Dr. Patel: Gatha. They have got a.... These Zoroastins read Gatha just like Bhagavad-gita. I have read it. I could understand very easily because it's Sanskrit dialect language. One professor has come from United States. He is staying here in a school of Parsis, and I am the doctor of that school. He said that this is completely Vedic religion. He has studied the Vedic philosophy also. He is teaching theology in some university of United States. He stays here in this.... [break] ...worse than, I think, most...
Prabhupada: But it is democracy. Because we are sinful, we have made a sinful government. It is democracy. Formerly the personal monarchy.... There is no monarchy. It is democracy.
Dr. Patel: It is demon-cracy.
Prabhupada: Demoncracy, yes.
Dr. Patel: Demoncracy.
Prabhupada: Why you accuse government? Government is your election.
Dr. Patel: Now she is not going to have any more elections. "Elections are not necessary. People have given me the mandate to rule over them."
Prabhupada: Yes, that's nice. If the dictator, executive officer, is very nice, religious, then there is no need of this election.
Dr. Patel: Oh, she goes to the temples, all right. (laughs) (Hindi)
Prabhupada: No, no. She has got the tendency of spiritual life and she requires improvement. That's all. She has spoken in Chandigarh that "Now we require spiritualism." Hm?
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) She is shamming, sir. Shamming. Shamming. She is not truthful to any of her words.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Dr. Patel: She is not truthful to what she says.
Prabhupada: [break] Any circumstances, they can adjust. [break] Oh, Ganga-sagara.
Sridhara: Yes. That's on the fourteenth, tomorrow.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Hare Krsna. [break] ...stand where there is water then they will manage everything. Water must be there.
Tamala Krsna: [break] ...Americans to live like this is totally impossible. They'd have to commit suicide. If they can't find the bathroom they won't know what to do. They have to pass stool. But water won't concern them because they don't bother bathing. They need a toilet, though.
Prabhupada: [break] ...for taking bath in the junction of Ganges and the sea. Just see how people are enthusiastic, coming from long, long distance, Ganga-sagara. Ganga means Ganges, and sagara means the sea. [break] ...it means they keep their lota, you see. [break] ...bathing in this cold water.
Tamala Krsna: [break] ...they'd be bothered by the boats being here.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Tamala Krsna: They don't seem to be bothered by these boats.
Prabhupada: No. No. [break] ...childhood I was taking bath. I used to come with my mother. She took bath; I also took bath.
Tamala Krsna: (laughs) She'd bring you. [break] Madhya Pradesh?
Prabhupada: [break] Hare Krsna.
Tamala Krsna: They are coming from so far. Rajasthan.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Tamala Krsna: [break] ...try to do this you get arrested, living on the street, bathing in the river. [break] Jayapataka is very intelligent. He could understand if we weren't there, we must be here. He looks like Vivekananda with that hat.
Prabhupada: (chuckles) [break] And see how their lota is cleansed.
Tamala Krsna: Shiny. Is that a special point, Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: Yes. That means that how cleansed they are. That is the point. [break] ...is if their lota is so cleansed how they are personally clean. (end)

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