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Evening Darsan

August 10, 1976, Tehran
Atreya Rsi: ...about Gandhi.
Prabhupada: This Indira Gandhi?
Atreya Rsi: No, Mahatma Gandhi. When I was in America three months ago, this was in a magazine, a new study. And it was very interesting because it showed that how subconsciously this man was very much, very much affected by sex, influenced. After I read it, I understood your comments a lot better, because it was a very frank study of details of his life and...
Prabhupada: You sit down, I'll show you.
Nava-yauvana: I should sit in front here.
Atreya Rsi: No, you stand and do it. Do it but do it strongly. Or you can do it like this, just comfortable. Comfortable. He was used to getting massage from woman.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Atreya Rsi: Yes, this is known. He used to have women devotees who...
Prabhupada: No, it was known to everyone. And that was remarked that his granddaughter, I mean granddaughter-in-law, he was always accompanied, resting his head on their shoulder, he was walking. That was remarked by...
Atreya Rsi: Yes, but they were not his granddaughter, his relative, and it was the wife of a relative. And he believed in honesty.
Prabhupada: He was very sexually inclined. That is written by him. While his father was dying, he was engaged in sex with his wife.
Atreya Rsi: Exactly. That is right. And therefore he felt very guilty toward sex. He was artificially depressing it. Therefore this article was pointing out that in his old age he was getting his satisfaction in a perverted way.
Prabhupada: By touching their bodies.
Atreya Rsi: That is right, and at night he would sleep with them in the same bed.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Atreya Rsi: He would get shivers. He would get shivers, and as a result of the shiver he would be covered with this woman. And her husband would object. Her husband would say, "Gandhiji, why do you have to do this? You know?" He would say, "You can see that I have no sexual inclination. This I want to prove that I have no sexual inclination."
Prabhupada: To show transcendental.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, but he was cheating himself. He was sincere, but he was completely misguided, Srila Prabhupada, it seems from that article.
Prabhupada: Harav abhakta. Our formula is harav abhaktasya kuto mahad gunah. If one is not devotee, he has no good qualities.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, and he suffered all his life. He wanted good qualification, but he was concocting. He was taking some from sastra and he was concocting some. Because he did not understand the sastra properly, he rejected some of it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: Because he did not have the blessing of Lord Caitanya, he did not understand it, so he rejected some of it, and as a result he was concocting. When he went to Africa, to South Africa, he started the movement there, this nonviolence...
Prabhupada: There it was failure.
Atreya Rsi: It was a failure.
Prabhupada: Twenty years he tried, it was failure.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. It was actually a very frank article, and after I read it...
Prabhupada: Who wrote it?
Atreya Rsi: Somebody by the name of Mehta. He was obviously a very great scholar, because this magazine is very first-class magazine. It's not a cheap magazine, and it was written very nicely. Somebody by the name of Mehta. He's a Dr. Mehta. In the New Yorker magazine, New Yorker.
Prabhupada: He has written one book, My Experiment With Truth, that truth is truth, but it is very (indistinct) thing. That means he did not know what is truth. (long pause-child says "haribol") He says "Haribol"?
Atreya Rsi: Yes.
Child: Haribol! Haribol! Haribol! Haribol!
Prabhupada: Haribol! Haribol! Haribol! (devotees chant japa)
Child: Haribol! (child makes sounds for some time)
Prabhupada: Let him play.
Dayananda: (to child) Are you chanting?
Prabhupada: Europe begins from Turkey?
Atreya Rsi: From here?
Prabhupada: No, Europe.
Atreya Rsi: Yes. Europe has small portion in Europe... Turkey has a small portion in Europe and a large portion in Asia Minor.
Prabhupada: And Russia also?
Atreya Rsi: Russia is also above Turkey. Parts of it is in Europe, part of it is in Asia.
Jnanagamya: Devotees are doing very well in Moscow, Prabhupada? Is that right? They are distributing books there?
Prabhupada: It is not very good. But they have got some orders.
Nava-yauvana: So when we preach to people we should first convince them that God is the supreme controller, the supreme proprietor. Then further understanding can come.
Prabhupada: Yes, there is a supreme controller. That you have to admit. You are not independent. Why they foolishly think independent? What is the reason they're foolishly thinking independent? What is their independence? Nobody is independent. So why they are foolishly thinking independent? You first challenge them. They are not independent. Are you independent? So why they foolishly declare independent?
Jnanagamya: They are ignorant.
Prabhupada: So what is the position then? They are in ignorance, and they are leading the society as scientist, philosopher, politician. That is misleading. They cannot go even freely in the so-called moon planet excursion or Mars. Still, they are declaring independence. What is their independence?
Atreya Rsi: Rascal.
Nandarani: If someone accepts his dependence on God, then what is the second step? In preaching, so someone has accepted, "Yes, we are dependent on God," but actually they have no knowledge who God is.
Prabhupada: Give them knowledge from Bhagavad-gita. If you accept dependence on God, then you take instruction from God, how you'll be happy. Just like a child. The child knows he's fully dependent on parents. So he's fully obeying the orders of the parents, then he's happy, naturally. The father, mother, knows how to take care of the child and they're happy. And by nature they're dependent on father and mother. So they are happy. Mother says, "My dear child, sit down." He will sit down. By nature.
Dayananda: Some people are sectarian in their idea of God.
Prabhupada: What is sectarian? Every sect the child is dependent of the parents. What do you mean by sectarian? Does it mean the Hindu child does not depend on the parents? The Muslim child depends on the parents? Everyone depends on the parents. Either he may be Hindu child or Muslim child or Christian child, that is the nature of the child. Similarly, you may be Hindu, you may be Muslim, you are dependent on God. This is a fact. What is sectarian? Can the Muslims say that "No, no, we are not dependent on God"? Can the Christians say like that? We have to take the general condition: everyone is dependent on God. Where is the question of sectarian? Now this cloud, it is clouded, everyone is expecting some rain. Does it mean the rain is Hindu rain or Muslim rain or Christian rain? Dependent on cloud. Everyone is expecting rain. It doesn't matter whether he's Hindu, Muslim or Christian. Why they declare independence?
Jnanagamya: They say independence means you don't need anything.
Prabhupada: What is that?
Nava-yauvana: He's trying to define independence, and he said independence means you don't need anything.
Atreya Rsi: If you have no needs. Independence means that you have no need for anything else.
Prabhupada: No, even if you have needs, if you can supply need, your needs you can supply yourself, then you can call independent. But that is not the position. You cannot get the supplies independently. Why you are expecting cloud? Because if there is rainfall, there will be vegetation. Then you will be able to grow food. So you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? Every step, you are dependent. Independently you cannot create cloud. So where is your independence? Every step, you are dependent. Why do you declare independence? What is this foolishness? What is their answer?
Hari-sauri: Well, they think they have some independence because they have to make so many decisions about how to live and how to operate society.
Prabhupada: He'll answer for them. Law of gravitation.(?) (talking about child?) What is your independence? Are you independent?
Atreya Rsi: There are all sorts of rascals, Srila Prabhupada. One kind of rascal is the mudha kind, who like to enjoy. He thinks he is independent.
Prabhupada: That is also dependent.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, but he thinks, "I can eat chicken or eggs or fish."
Prabhupada: That's all right, that is dependent. Wherefrom the chicken comes?
Atreya Rsi: From the fields.
Prabhupada: Fields? No, it comes from the chicken.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, from the chicken, yes.
Prabhupada: So therefore he has to depend on other chickens. (laughter) What is his independence?
Atreya Rsi: But I can kill them and eat them.
Prabhupada: That means if there is chicken you can kill. If there is supply of chicken, then you can kill. Otherwise, where is the opportunity of killing and eating?
Jnanagamya: You cannot kill all the chickens.
Prabhupada: No, even they kill, they are killing, but killing facility will be there if there is chicken. Just like a tiger in the jungle. They are very expert, but they do not get food daily. Because the other animals, they also know, that part of the jungle there is tiger. They avoid going there. So he doesn't get daily food. He kills one animal and keeps it hidden and takes little, little. He cannot... They are always hungry, although they have got good strength, but where is the opportunity? And there is one small animal, he's called feow.(?) As soon as the tiger gets out to find out some prey, this small animal warns, "feow." The other animals will understand the tiger is coming. So despite getting good strength, good jaws, good nails, there is no food. He's dependent. If God supplies him, then he'll get opportunity. Otherwise, these nails and jaws and strength are useless.
Atreya Rsi: But if I have good intelligence, I can make many machines and put many eggs in them and have all the supplies of chicken that I want.
Prabhupada: That also I have already explained, you depend on another chicken's egg. You cannot manufacture the egg. That is my challenge, that you manufacture the egg by chemical combination and put into the machine. That you cannot do. Another living chicken must lay down the egg, then you can reclaim. You're dependent. Where is your independence? Everywhere you are dependent. How you declare independence? Where is your independence?
Dayananda: They think that the countries that have the materialistic advancement or scientific advancements, that they are very well situated.
Prabhupada: Well, scientific advancement, all this nonsense you can say. Just like Iran. God has given the oil underneath the ground, you are so proud. But if God would not give you the oil, then you starve in the desert. Then talk of improvement, nonsense. You're dependent on the oil. That is given by God. By God's grace, you have got some stock of oil, and there is good demand of oil. Then you are proud of making advancement. You are depending on the oil. The oil is supplied by God. You're dependent. Where is your independence? When the oil is finished, then your all pride is finished. Where is your independence?
Dayananda: But we do not believe in God and still...
Prabhupada: Do or do not believe in God, but you are not independent, that's a fact. You don't believe or do believe, it doesn't matter. But you are dependent. You are not independent.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, we are dependent on nature.
Prabhupada: That's all right, but you cannot say that you are independent. That is the point that we are discussing. You call nature, I call God, it doesn't make any difference. But you are dependent on something else. You can call it nature, but nature is also God's nature. Anyway, accept nature. So,
So take it, nature, nature is acting in her own way. So nature is not your father's servant. So how do you declare independent, that I am everything? Even if you accept nature, you are not independent. That's a fact.
Atreya Rsi: But I am not independent, I am more dependent on my intelligence.
Prabhupada: What intelligence? If dependent, what is the meaning of intelligence?
Dayananda: Yes, I'm depending on my own intelligence to utilize everything for advancement, for my comfort and my strength and food.
Prabhupada: Yes, everything, if there is no everything, then what is the meaning of intelligence?
Dayananda: But I may develop more intelligence to create what I lack.
Prabhupada: That is theory. That is not fact. [break] That is given by nature or God, whatever you say. That is not in your intelligence.
Hari-sauri: God may have given us all the basic things, but it's taken man's intelligence to make the...
Prabhupada: That is all right, but if God has given you so many basic things, then you can use your intelligence. Otherwise, your intelligence... There is a story that one man was asked by his friend, "Have you got intelligence?" He began to search out here. So, "What is this?" He said, "Intelligence means when there is money here. Otherwise, I am even though I have got intelligence, useless." You can utilize your intelligence provided you have got the means. Intelligence also you cannot utilize properly if there is no supply.
Hari-sauri: Actually, Svarupa Damodara pointed out when we were in Washington that most of these big, big men, they admit that they don't know where their inspiration comes from; it just comes. Just like that Mozart or one of those composers. He just used to write the music, but he had no idea where it was coming from. He did not think it out.
Prabhupada: And that is answered in the Bhagavad-gita: mattah, mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. So intelligence comes from God. Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca.
Atreya Rsi: One of the questions Iranians ask a lot is that if He is giving us intelligence, why doesn't He give us enough intelligence so that we could be God conscious?
Prabhupada: Yes, He's giving. Read the Bhagavad-gita. But you rascals don't accept, what can be done? God is personally coming to give you intelligence, take this intelligence. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata tadatmanam srjamy aham [Bg. 4.7]. "I come when there is no intelligence, when you are all rascals, I come to give you intelligence, but you don't take, what can I do?" That is God's mission, that "These rascals, without properly being guided they'll go to hell. Let Me give them some intelligence." That is Bhagavad-gita, that is Bhagavad-gita. Arjuna is karpanya dosopahata-svabhavah: "I have become confused, so give me intelligence." Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg. 2.7]. He's taking intelligence, how to tackle the situation. He was confused. He was to fight as a ksatriya, but he saw that the persons with whom he has to fight, they are all family members. So what kind of fight is that? Who is fighting with family members? That was his confusion. Suppose we are Krsna conscious society. Then if we declare fight amongst ourselves, is that very intelligent? So actually the Kuruksetra battle was like that. Some intrigue of Dhrtarastra that his son will occupy the throne, that was the cause of the fight. So Arjuna thought that "My uncle may be intriguing person, he has brought this disaster, fight amongst the family members, so why shall I do it? Better let them enjoy. They are also family members. Why this unnecessary fight?" He was responsible. He was not unreasonable, very good man, that "After all, they are also our family members, let them enjoy. Why there is unnecessary fight amongst family members?" He was not a coward, but he's good reasonable man, that "We are all brothers. They want to rule over. Let them rule over. Why fight?" Sometimes it is misunderstood, Krsna is misunderstood, that Arjuna is such a nice man, he didn't want to fight, and Krsna's inducing him "Yes, you must fight." It is puzzling. God is inducing a good man to fight, who does not want to fight. It is really puzzling. Is it not? Arjuna is a good, nice man, that "After all, it is family property. So other brothers, they want to rule it over. Let them do it. I shall better beg only. Why shall I kill them?" It is good proposal. Very nice gentleman's proposal. And Krsna said, "No, you must fight." So that Krsna's position is very awkward, that He'll induce such a good man to fight. So superficially one can criticize, "How is this? What kind of God you have got, Krsna, that He induces a very nice gentleman to fight in the family?" Superficially, it is like that. But they do not know that this is foolishness, to deny the order of Krsna. So who can understand this philosophy? Unless one is a great devotee of Krsna, he cannot understand. From superficial angle of vision, Krsna is inducing a nice gentleman to fight, and we are worshiping that Krsna? So it is very puzzling. "Your God is like that? What kind of God you have got? Inducing gentleman to fight amongst family?" They can criticize.
Jnanagamya: We have to say what kind of family he has got.
Prabhupada: That is another thing. Superficially, this is the position. But still Arjuna says that "You instruct me." He doesn't give up, he doesn't reject Krsna, that "Krsna, I am such a gentleman. I do not wish to fight. You are inducing me to fight, I don't want Your guidance." No. Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam [Bg. 2.7]"I surrender unto You." And therefore Arjuna is so great. He's not so-called gentleman; he is devotee. What was your question, why God does not come to instruct us? Who said? You told me. It was your question?
Atreya Rsi: Yes, why doesn't He give us enough intelligence...
Prabhupada: He's giving intelligence. But if you don't accept, what can be done? He has come Himself, and He's giving intelligence. You take it and be happy. But if you don't take it, what God can do?
Hari-sauri: Then your argument that I have no independence, that's not correct.
Prabhupada: No. You have got independence, little independence.
Atreya Rsi: You have freedom to choose intelligence or be a rascal.
Prabhupada: You have got independence to misuse your independence. That independence you have got. You have been given intelligence. Now you have got, because you have got intelligence, little independence, you can misuse that. Just like you are all my secretaries. So I give you some independence. You can misuse it. So that misuse is wrong. Then you'll become unhappy. Krsna says that sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Says. He doesn't force youyou must do it. You do it. That means independence. Now it is your choice. You have got independence of misusing it. So independence is a quality inherent in living beings, because he's part and parcel of God. The quality of the father is inherited by the son, even physically. Similarly, you have..., God is fully independent, you have got little touch of independence. Now that independence is properly utilized when you carry out the order of God. That is proper. Ordinarily, every country is independent. Does it mean that he is cent percent independent? No. Then why there is police department? Similarly, we are part and parcel of God. We have got little independence. But if we misuse it, then we shall be punished. So there is no question of independence. Independence, little. That is interdependence, not independence. Why they declare independence? That is their foolishness.
Hari-sauri: It's always very relative.
Prabhupada: Not absolute. Absolute independence, God. Even if you have got little independence it is relative, under condition.
Nandarani: And the purpose of sastra is to direct this minute independence so that it is not misused?
Prabhupada: Just like in your state, you are independent citizen, but you must be guided by the laws. If you violate the laws, immediately you will be prisoner. The sastra is like that, law. You have little independence, you can utilize it fully, under the laws. As soon as you violate, you are immediately put into suffering. Because you are a citizen of an independent country, America, doesn't mean that you can do whatever you like. But you do according to the laws of the country.
Dayananda: You were talking the other morning on the walk about dharma and dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2].
Prabhupada: Dharma means what God says, that is dharma. But you have created your own dharma. You give up that.
Hari-sauri: He's not referring to sanatana-dharma.
Prabhupada: Law given by the state, that is law. If you create a law at home, that is not law. Dharma means what is ordained by Krsna, God, that is dharma. And other things, that may be temporary. You can create some laws within your family, but that is not generally applicable to others. But when it is given by the government, that is real law. That is applicable to all people. When you go out to the street, you have to abide by the laws of the state, the light. As soon as there is red light, you have to stop. At home you may not make such rules and regulations. But that is within your home, that is not general. Similarly, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66] means what you have made at your home, concoction, give up all these dharmas. Here is the real dharma, mam ekam saranam vraja. That is dharma. Everyone has to surrender to Krsna or God. So that is real dharma.
Dayananda: Srila Prabhupada, is that what it means in the Bhagavad-gita when Krsna says that we have to go sruti-vipratipanna, we have to go beyond just hearing about these different...?
Prabhupada: Find out that verse.
"When your mind is no longer disturbed by the flowery language of the Vedas, and when it remains fixed in the trance of self-realization, then you will have attained the divine consciousness."
Prabhupada: So ritualistic ceremonies, Vedic ritualistic ceremonies. Everywhere there are some ritualistic ceremony. So when you go above this... Just like Krsna says in another place, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo. By performing the Vedic ritualistic ceremony, the ultimate goal is to understand Krsna. So if you understand Krsna, then you may not perform this ritualistic ceremony. Because you have come to the objective. Not before that. That is sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Vedic ritualistic ceremony is that if you perform this yajna, then you go to the heavenly planet and there you'll get so long life, ten thousands of years, you get nice woman, and so on, so on. People are after that, karma-kanda. So this karma-kanda is required so long one is unaware of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When one understands this karma-kanda elevation is not the aim of our life, our real aim of life how to go back home, back to Godhead, then these things are not required. Just like we have no ritualistic ceremony, we have simply devotional service. We have no ritualistic ceremony. There are so many things ritualistic. And we are performing only this Hare Krsna mantra, maha-mantra. Therefore the smarta brahmanas, they misunderstand. They do not admit that they have become elevated. The Jagannatha temple does not allow. But when one becomes a pure Vaisnava, then tepus tapas te juhuvuh sasnur arya [SB 3.33.7]. He has performed all the ritualistic devotion. There are many statements in the sastras, that when you come to the devotional platform, you haven't go to perform these ritualistic ceremonies. Because the end of ritualistic ceremony, you have come to the point. That is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Dharmah projjhita kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. Kaitava means cheating. Cheating type of dharma is rejected here. This karma-kanda, by performing some ritualistic ceremony you may go to a heavenly planet, but what benefit you will have? That one has to understand. You can enjoy there materialistic, highest type of materialistic civilization means eating, sleeping, mating. These things you can get, but you have to come back again. Ksine punye martya-lokam visanti [Bg. 9.21]. So what benefit there is? No benefit. Just like in British period, some Englishman was made viceroy of India. Then after five years they sent to London, again with his bag, marketing in the street. This has been seen practically. Lord such-and-such, he's traveling in a third-class compartment with a bag for marketing. But so long he was viceroy, oh, so much honor, so much prestige. So where is that prestige now? These ritualistic ceremonies are like that. For more years you become viceroy, and then again fall down. That is your Nixon. What is the position of Nixon now? He is ordinary man. That's all.
Harikesa: He's making a lot of money from his book.
Prabhupada: That is, everyone will read, but he's not in that position of President. Money, there are many merchants that make more money than Nixon. That is not the criterion. That position. So it is like that. So what is Mr. Ali's...? Any question?
Ali: Sorry, I can't...
Atreya Rsi: Would you be more comfortable inside, Srila Prabhupada?
Prabhupada: No, I am quite all right. If you want to go, I shall go.
Atreya Rsi: If we have more people, if more people come, then we'll go inside. If they come.
Hari-sauri: Prabhupada was wondering if you had any questions.
Ali: All right. I was thinking about the material platform that you mentioned last night, and I could not figure out how vast this platform is, what does it consist of, how do we define this platform. Is nature materialism? I mean, there are many things which are obvious, such as money, greed, etc. But how about nature, love?
Prabhupada: We have got three platforms, generally. Material platform divided into two-gross and subtle, and there is spiritual platform. The body is material platform, divided into two, gross and subtle. And then if you are fortunate enough to come to the spiritual platform, then your life is successful. So the karmis generally... Just like we see in the city, they are all busy, working very hard. They are on the gross material platform. And then next class, just like scientist, poet, philosopher, they are in the subtle platform. And above them, there are persons who are simply interested in spiritual understanding. They are on the spiritual platform. So according to the platform, there are thoughts and activities also. Your question is what is about these so many things. So first of all you have to understand in which platform he is situated. Then his activities are ascertained. If you are in the material platform, doing some business, making some profit, and if you bring there question"What is this, use of material profit, this body is temporary, why I am..."then your material activities will be diminished.(?) So we have to understand first of all what is our actual objective. And then if we stand in that platform, then our life is successful.
Ali: Does this mean that a person should turn his attention from the world, from his surrounding?
Prabhupada: That you cannot do. Just like we are, although we are interested fully in Krsna consciousness, it doesn't mean that we do not live in a house, we do not eat, we do not use motorcar, we do not use typewriter, dictaphone. We are using everything. But the purpose is different. We are traveling and paying heavily to the air companies. Whenever I travel, at least five, six men go with me, and one round trip world travel means sixteen thousand dollars or sixteen hundred dollars?
Atreya Rsi: Sixteen thousand. About five, six people, one round trip is about twelve thousand dollars.
Prabhupada: So twelve thousand dollars means about more than one lakh of rupees. So we are spending that, but not for any other purpose than for Krsna's service. Anywhere we speak we are talking only Krsna, trying to push on Krsna consciousness. That is our business. So the platform is different, eh? Externally, one can see, they are also spending so much money for traveling, they are living in a nice house and they have some nice car. But the consciousness is different. Another example in this connection, that I am sitting on this chair and there is a bug also. He is also sitting on this chair. But that does not mean the bug and myself equal. The bug's business is different, my business is different. But superficially, if one sees that the bug and Swamiji's on the same chair, therefore they're all equal? That is not the fact. Similarly, we may be using all these material things, but we have no material business. We have simply spiritual business.
Ali: It is living in the material world without become attached to it.
Prabhupada: No, we have no attachment. We can sit down, in this nice building, we can sit down anywhere. We are not attached to this building; we are attached to push on Krsna consciousness. That is our business. And unconditionally we can push on Krsna consciousness. Ahaituky apratihata. It is not that if we don't get a nice building as Atreya Rsi has supplied, then we cannot push on. No. That is not Krsna consciousness. Just like I began this movement underneath a tree in New York, Tompkinson Square, what is that?
Devotees: Tompkins Square Park.
Prabhupada: I used to sit down there. There was no mrdanga. A small dundubi. And I was chanting three hoursHare Krsna, Hare Krsna. And people used to come.
Nava-yauvana: In a very bad neighborhood. Very low-class neighborhood.
Prabhupada: Yes. Low-class, high-class, we don't mind. We chant Hare Krsna, that's all. That 26 Second Avenue also not very good neighborhood.
Jnanagamya: It's the worst place in the country. (laughter)
Prabhupada: But I did not know. Mukunda suggested this is good place, all right, live here. And actually happened to be good place. Gradually, all my disciples came. So I had no disturbance. I was living in the Bowery Street, and on my door these bums were lying with urine and wine bottles and everything. Still, they were so respectful. When I'll come, "Yes, you can enter. Please." (laughter) I had no quarrel with them. They were very kind. They welcomed me, they opened the door, "Please go." They also knew that "He's a harmless..." So, platform, if you remain on the spiritual platform, this material condition cannot hamper you. Ahaituky apratihata. Then yenatma suprasidati, in that condition you can execute. First of all, we have to ascertain on which platform we shall stand. And if you want to stand on the spiritual platform, nothing can check it. That is not conditioned. So why not stand directly to the spiritual platform and make you life successful? That is our preaching. People in general, they do not know the importance of the spiritual platform. Therefore they prefer to stay in the material platform. They have no sufficient education.
Ali: Why couldn't spirits grow without taking this body? Why couldn't spirits grow in the spiritual world without taking this material body.
Prabhupada: You can go. It is your punishment. The material body... If one thinks in the prison house, "How one can live without prison house?" That is his misconception. Generally, one is expected to live outside the prison. But because that person is in the prison house since a long time, he cannot think that without prison house one can live; that is misconception. He has no idea of spiritual life, therefore he's thinking like that. Real business is how to get out of the prison. But he's thinking just the opposite way, that "If I do not remain in the prison, how can I eat?" A thief is thinking that "I'm living here very comfortably, without stealing. I'm getting food and shelter, and if I go outside I have to steal again." So it is good life? That is due to ignorance. There is very good life without the prison house. That he does not know. He does not know that there is a spiritual world where a spirit soul can live very comfortably, meeting God every day, talking with Him, dancing with Him. That he has no idea.
Ali: How can a spirit become so ignorant?
Prabhupada: On account of no education. Therefore we are giving education. Because they are in gross ignorance, they require education. Therefore this is Krsna consciousness movement, educational.
Atreya Rsi: In the beginning how does the spirit become ignorant, falls into ignorance?
Prabhupada: He's not... Just like the same question, a criminal, if you say, "In the beginning, how he became criminal," is that very intelligent question? What do you think? A prisoner, criminal, is living in the prison house since a long time, and if you raise this question, "In the beginning, how he became a criminal," is that very intelligent question?
Atreya Rsi: No, but not everyone is prisoner.
Prabhupada: No, this question. Anyone can become criminal, any moment. There is no question of beginning. At any moment you can begin. You are honest gentleman, very good. You are working in a nice spot. At any time, any moment, you can become a criminal and go to prison house. That is... You are prone to... As soon as you misuse your little independence, you become a criminal. That is the difficulty. You have got some independence. As soon as we misuse that independence, immediately we are criminal, go to prison house. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot cheat material nature. Immediately she captures. Krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha kare pasate maya tare japati 'dhare. That beginning is possible at any moment. You haven't got to trace out the history. Event if you are very honest, you can become subjected to these criminal law at any moment. You are prone to that. So there is no use wasting time how it was begun. You are criminal. Now make your treatment that you may not become criminal again. If you go to a doctor, you have got some sickness, and if the doctor inquires, "How it began?" How it began? What business? Now I have got sickness, you treat me. That's all. What is the use of wasting time how it began? Some way or other, it has begun. Now I've come to you, make treatment. That's all. Why should we waste our time to find out the history how it began? That beginning can be possible at any moment. As soon as we misuse our little independence, immediately the beginning is there. A criminal means one who has violated the laws of the state. That is a fact. So when that violation began, so that is not very important thing. You have violated, you are in the prison house. That's all. That is important thing.
Ali: Yes, that's right. My question is answered, but my confusion is still...
Prabhupada: What is that confusion?
Ali: I'm amazed that... When someone tastes something, a nice fruit, something pleasant, he remembers, appreciates that, even in material world. How could someone see God and come from a source as powerful and lovable as that and then forget? How could he forget so easily and become so badly attached to this materialism? Why is it that we are so far? I know it's in due course to my actions.
Prabhupada: That tendency is here. Because we are very small fragment of spiritual identity, that tendency is there. The example is given, just like fire and spark of the fire. The fire and the spark, the spark is very small, but it is fire. And the big fire, together they look very beautiful. With the fire, when the sparks come-sput sputso many sparks, it looks very beautiful. But the sparks sometimes fall down from the original fire. Then it is no more fire. It is fire, but it's extinguished. The illumination is over. So we are small particles of God. God is big fire; we are small particles of God. So we are playing with the big fire very nice, but there is chance of falling down. That chance is there. The big fire does not fall. The big fire is always blazing. But the small fire, although it is possessing the same quality of fire, it may fall down. So we are small particle, very, very small, atomic portion God. Therefore we have got the tendency to be separated from the big fire, and then we begin our material body. Just like another crude example, just like a very rich man's son, he's enjoying life. Sometimes he thinks, "Why not independently live? Why dependent of father?" He goes out and he becomes a hippie. There are many examples. He was living very comfortably, rich man's son, but he left the house of his father and became a hippie. There are many practical examples. Why does he do so? I have seen in Allahabad one big lawyer, very famous lawyer, Ferolal Bannerji. He had two sons. One son became a good barrister like him, and another son became a car-wala, driving a car. The reason was that this son, a car-wala, he fell in love with a low-class woman, and he preferred to remain a car-wala.
Hari-sauri: What is that?
Prabhupada: Low-class woman. So she was living in a cottage, hut, cottage. So out of love he also preferred that "I shall live with her, and I shall drive a car." So that is independence. He preferred. So that discrimination preference is there always. You can prefer a low-grade life out of your discretion. Nobody can check you. And by cultivation of knowledge, you can become a big man. The two tendencies are there. There is no stereotyped idea. Otherwise, he has no independence. Who was speaking of that owl? There is an animal, owl. He doesn't like to remain in the sunlight. So that is also an animal. He is also eating, sleeping, mating, but he doesn't like the sunlight. What can you do? So God has given him all facility to remain as an owl, in darkness. That is God's kindness.
Atreya Rsi: So we can fall as far as we want.
Prabhupada: Fall or rise also. Why do you say fall? You can rise to the highest platform from the fallen condition. That is Krsna consciousness movement. That you are in a fallen condition, come to the highest platform and talk with God, play with God, dance with God. That is our opportunity. Now it is up to you to take it or not to take it. That is up to you. But our propaganda is this, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti kaunteya [Bg. 4.9]. You simply try to understand Krsna. Then janma karma ca me divyam evam yo vetti tattvatah tyaktva deham [Bg. 4.9]this is our propaganda. We are trying to induce people to understand Krsna. Then his life is successful. But if you don't try to understand, that is your business. But we are offering that here is a movement, you try to understand Krsna. What is the wrong there? But if you don't like, who can force you? We are going country to country, door to door, town to town. What is our business? We are simply requesting that "You try to understand Krsna." And Krsna says, "As soon as you understand Me, you come to Me." Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. Now it is up to you. If you take theoretically, that "If by understanding Krsna I can go to the eternal, blissful spiritual life," why not try it? And if you inquire that, "All right, it is very good proposal. By going back to Krsna, everything is solved. Yes, I'll go. So what is the method?" Then if I say, "Chant Hare Krsna," where is the difficulty? Why you are so much determined not to do anything to go back to home, back to Godhead? That is your misfortune. If it is so easy, and it is the means of solving all the problems, why not try it? "All right, let me try in this life." Why don't you do it? It is not a very difficult task. If you don't do it, then you are misfortunate. Therefore Caitanya, kono bhagyavan jiva. This is the process to be adopted by the some fortunate persons. But they do not want to become fortunate. They want to remain unfortunate. That is the difficulty.
Ali: So obviously this ignorance follows, even when we leave this body.
Prabhupada: You leave this body, you accept another body. Tatha dehantara praptir. Just like you have already accepted. When you were a child, this body was not there.
Ali: Does this happen instantly?
Prabhupada: Not instantly. I mean to say you have changed your body. Similarly, after giving up this body, you'll change to another body. That's a fact.
Ali: And between those gaps, we are sleeping.
Prabhupada: There is no gap. The nature's law... It is said that just like you are walking, step by step, like this, so when you fix up this step, then you take away this step.
Hari-sauri: Example of a caterpillar, how it moves from one leaf to another.
Prabhupada: Similarly, when you by nature's law when it is fixed up, you have to accept this body, then you give up this body, and immediately enter into the womb of the mother to prepare another similar body like the mother.
Ali: During this transformation, are we still ignorant? During this transformation from body to body.
Prabhupada: No, he's not ignorant. This body, next body is achieved according to the consciousness. At the time of, if you are thinking of something to which you are very much attached, then you get that similar body. If you are thinking of your pet dog, then you get the dog's body. And if you are thinking of Krsna, God, then you'll get the body like Krsna. That will be decided at the time of your death. Because at the time of death you'll be absorbed with thinking which you have done throughout the whole life. Sada tad-bhava-bhavitah [Bg. 8.6]. Just like the whole day you are working with some business, at night also dreaming that, subtle body. So you have to train up yourself within this life how to think of Krsna. Then there is chance of thinking of Krsna at the time of death and go back to home. It is not difficult. Very easy.
Ali: So the ultimate goal is not to come back.
Prabhupada: No, what is the use of coming here to suffer? Who is happy here? Can you find out anybody who is happy here?
Ali: Not that I've seen.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Hari-sauri: Not that he has seen. He's not seen anyone.
Prabhupada: Nobody. Do you think your king, Shah, is also happy? No. His sons, daughter, they are happy? No. He is also anxious how to keep his position, exalted position, he has to makes many plans, satisfy so many ministers, so many. He is also full of anxiety. And a small bird eating some grain here, he's attracted for the grain, but he's looking this way, "Oh, here is a man, here is man, he may not do some harm to me." So everyone is full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sada samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahat [SB 7.5.5]. Because we have adopted this material life, asad, our mind should always be full of anxiety. Nobody can be free from anxiety. That is not possible. Sada samudvigna dhiyam asad-grahat. Because we have accepted this temporary body, we have to be full of anxiety. This is law of nature. And if we act in this life to create another material body, then our all activities are spoiled. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jato yavan na jijnasata atma-tattvam. He did not ask about the constitutional position of himself, he simply engaged himself in dog's place(?). Then whatever activities he has done, it is simply defeat. Next body what he's going to get he does not know. If you become a minister in this life and next life you become a dog, then what is the benefit? Can anyone challenge this? "No, no, I'm not going to become a dog." Nobody can say. You are going to change the bodytatha dehantara praptirnow what kind of body you'll get, that will depend on nature, not on yourself. If you go to a tailor's shop, so you have to pay for if you want a better garment. Similarly, what kind of body you will get, that will depend on your work. So in this life you may be a prime minister, but if you have worked like menial dogs and hogs, then you are going to get body of a dog and hog. That is nature's gift. You cannot check it. You have no hand on the administration of the nature. That is not possible. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. If you have infected some disease, you must suffer from that. This is nature's law. You cannot say, "Although I have infected the smallpox disease, I'll not suffer." No, you have to suffer. Or you have to die of that disease. You cannot check it. So they do not know how nature is going. Declaring independence. That is foolishness. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg. 3.27]. And people are kept in ignorance. There is no school, no college, no institution to give instructions about this science. This is the position of modern civilization. People are kept in ignorance. They got the chance of human body to understand the value of life, but they are not given education by the father, by the guardian, by the king, by the guru. Nobody is giving. Therefore sastra says you should not become a guru, you should not become a father, you should not become a king unless you are able to save him from these laws of nature, repetition of birth and death. Then you should not become. It's the duty of the guardians to give education to the dependents about the spiritual knowledge. But who is doing that? We are trying our bit because we are ordered by superior that "You do it." So we are trying as far as possible, that's all.
Ali: Is there a time limit for this spiritual growth?
Prabhupada: No, in a moment you can be spiritually enlightened. So why don't you agree?
Ali: Why I mean is from the time that you start, has it got deadline or something.
Prabhupada: Well, starting, just like when there is a seed sown, the starting is there. Now it grows a tree and there is fruit, there is flowers. The fruit is green now. When it is yellow mango and ripe, you can take. The beginning is when you sow the seed. Just like child. The father puts the seed within the womb of the mother. The body begins from that moment, grows and grows. When it is fully grown up it comes out and acts and then walks. So beginning is there. You can begin at any moment. But it is spiritual, it does not take so much time. You should remember spiritual. Just like speed, there are different kinds of speed. Mental speed and physical speed. Physical speed, you have got a very good nice airplane. Still, you have to take ten hours to reach London. And mental speed, you can immediately, within a second, go to London. And spiritual speed, still more. Krsna says tyaktva deham punar janma mam eti [Bg. 4.9], as soon as you give up the body you immediately go to Krsna. That is spiritual speed. Immediately. Not that so many miles, oh, Krsnaloka is far, far above this material sky, then spiritual sky. No. The spiritual speed is so high that tyaktva deham, as soon as you give up this body, immediately. You can compare material speed and mental speed. Although you haven't got spiritual idea, still, we can at least imagine what is that spiritual speed. The mental speed is so rapid that by the speedy airplane I'll have to take four hours, you can reach there in four seconds by mental speed. That is with our experience. Then we can imagine how speedy is spiritual. It is actually known by education. It is a science. It is not sentiment. And everything is there.
Ali: How do you classify dreams?
Prabhupada: Dreams is mental, subtle platform. Your gross body is not working, but your subtle mind is working. That's all. It is material.
Ali: The master is usually on a totally different level. It is quite obvious, from the actions, the talks, the understanding and the experience. How close does one student usually, how close does he get to the master? How closely does he understand the master? Or he could interrelate himself to the master?
Hari-sauri: He's asking how intimate does the connection become between the master and the disciples.
Prabhupada: Simply by association.
Ali: But whatever you talk about, it comes from experience.
Prabhupada: It is association. Just like you came yesterday, you have come again. Similarly, if you come again and again, then you become one of them. Association. You understand, then you become one of them. If you remain in touch with the fire, then you become warm, warm, warmer, and then fire. That example I have given you, the iron rod. Put it in the fire, association, it becomes warm, warmer, and one day, iron. After few hours you'll see that the iron rod is red hot. It is no more iron; now it is fire. Association. By association one can become spiritualized. It is very important thing. We are opening so many branches all over the world with this purpose, to give the facility of association.
Ali: There are also so many masters now, so many.
Prabhupada: That is your choice. Just like when you go to the market there are so many shops. Now it is your choice from which shop you have to purchase. First of all, you must know what is your need. If you want gold and if you go to the cigarette shop, "Give me gold," then what benefit you'll get? He'll give you a cigarette and he'll cheat you, "Here is gold."
Atreya Rsi: Srila Prabhupada, is it possible to sit inside? There are seven, eight people.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Atreya Rsi: You can continue the discussion inside. [break]
Prabhupada: ...a small child, he does not know what is the meaning of bowing down. But he's doing it. This is association. But he's getting benefit. Not that because he does not know, he's not getting benefit. He's getting benefit. (pause) You can put this light on that side, anywhere, or down, keep it down. (speaks in Hindi to guests)
Atreya Rsi: Mr. Sharma is a devotee. He's a wonderful person. He's taken to spiritual life and is very serious about it. Mr. Sahani is also very serious, he's...
Prabhupada: No, every Indian is a devotee. This is the privilege of taking birth in India. There is... Naturally he's devotee, and if he takes little education, take advantage of the Vedic instructions, then his life is successful. In the sastra it is said even the demigods, they desire to take birth in India because this facility is there in India. This facility, the land is so sanctified that anyone who takes the body from this land, he's born sanctified. Now, if he further takes advantage of the Vedic knowledge, then his life becomes successful. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission is that anyone who has taken birth in India, make his life successful, and then preach this knowledge to the outside world. The exact word,
Outside India they are in darkness. So it is the duty of the Indian to make his life perfect and spread his spiritual knowledge to the outside world. That is real welfare activity in the human society. That we are trying to do. Unfortunately, they have not taken very seriously what glorious activities for India we are doing. They do not understand.
Mrs. Sahani: Excuse me, does that mean that people from other religions may..., it is not possible for them to achieve the highest perfection?
Prabhupada: It's possible. If you take advantage of the highest college, then you become..., there is possibility to becoming highly educated. You cannot become highly educated sitting down in a dark room. That is not possible. Is it possible? You have to associate, take admission in the society where people are actually highly educated. The advantage is there, the possibility is there, but you have to take it.
Mrs. Sahani: From their own religion also.
Prabhupada: Why you bring in religion? We are talking of knowledge.
Mrs. Sahani: Knowledge is there in all the religions.
Prabhupada: Yes. Religion is now misunderstood. Religion is described in the dictionary, "a faith." So faith..., your faith may be something, my faith may be something, that is not religion. Religion is described in the Vedic literature, "the law given by God." That is religion. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. So, just like law means the order given by the state, similarly, religion means the order given by God. So if you do not know what is God, what is His order, then what is your religion? Do you believe it or not? If you do not know what is God, if you do not know what is His word or what is His order, then where is your religion? If you do not know what is the government and if you do not know what is the government's order, then where is the question of law-abiding? Religion means, according to Vedic description.... Just like Krsna said, mam ekam saranam vraja. This is religion. Sarva-dharman parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up all this nonsense. Surrender unto Me." So what is the objection? Religion is one, surrender to God. So where is the objection? And God says that "You surrender to Me." So where is the objection? Religion cannot be two. Religion is one, surrender to God. If I say, "You are Muslim, you surrender to God, " do you have any objection? If I say to Christian, "You surrender to God," will he have any objection? Therefore religion is one; there cannot be two religions. Why you are bringing other religions? There is no question of other religions. Religion is one. You accept it?
Mrs. Sahani: Yes.
Prabhupada: Nobody should have any objection. And if you do not surrender to God, then what is the meaning of your religion? It is bogus. That is the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam: dharmah projjhita kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]. Here in the Srimad-Bhagavatam all this bogus type of religion is rejected. And what is that bogus type of religion? Bogus type means which religion does not know who is God and how to love Him. That's all. Do you agree or not? So religion cannot be two; religion one. God is one, and to offer our submission to Him, that is religion. Simple thing. And God comes personally to demand this. Sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is religion. Now say what is your objection about this religion.
Mrs. Sahani: No objection at all. Religion means surrender to God.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is religion. And that is first-class faith which teaches how to surrender to God. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6].
Mrs. Sahani: This is the highest knowledge.
Prabhupada: That is the highest knowledge. It doesn't matter whether you are Muhammadan, Christian or Hindu or this or that. Whether you know God and you have fully surrendered to Him, then it is perfect. Otherwise, it is simply waste of time. Srama eva hi kevamalam. If you simply perform the ritualistic ceremonies very strictly, but you have no idea of God, you have no knowledge how to love Him, it is simply waste of time. Srama eva hi kevalam.
You are very religious, very nice, but are you interested with God or dog? "No, I am interested with dog." Then where is religion? Religion means you must be interested with God. That is religion What is the report? How much they are interested now?
Nava-yauvana: Forty million pounds.
Prabhupada: Yes. Forty million pounds are being spent in Germany to take care of dog. This is advancement of civilization.
Mrs. Sahani: And how to surrender to God, how to do this?
Prabhupada: Simply surrender to God, immediately. He says sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66].
Mrs. Sahani: For a layman who doesn't know anything.
Prabhupada: People do not know. Therefore God comes personally to teach you. Why don't you take the teaching? Why don't you take the teaching? Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg. 18.66], why don't you become fully surrendered to Krsna?
Mrs. Sahani: Yes, we follow, you know. Someone has to create interest first, and then people will take the teaching.
Prabhupada: That is conditional. But He wants unconditional surrender. That is religion. Of course, if you cannot surrender unconditionally, then you at least practice. That is also instructed. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. At least think of Krsna, man-mana. What is the difficulty if you think of Krsna, man-mana. What is the difficulty if you think of Krsna? What is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty?
Mrs. Sahani: You first have to surrender to God.
Prabhupada: Eh? No difficulty. If you chant Krsna Krsna, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, where is the difficulty? That is mana-mana. Apply your mind to Krsna. Where is the difficulty? The difficulty is that we'll not do it. That is our determination. We shall do everything, but not this. That is the difficulty. Otherwise, there is no difficulty. Everyone will teach about Bhagavad-gita, so many things they will speak, but nobody speaks that you surrender to Krsna. Rather, they will say Krsna is fictitious, there was no Krsna, there was no... They mislead, that's all. And he becomes a big scholar. The more he deviates you, misguides you, he become a big scholar. This is going on. Is it not? There are so many scholars, politicians, philosophers, they are talking of Bhagavad-gita. Nobody is talking that Krsna, surrender to Krsna. Am I right or wrong? They'll say "We have got different meaning of Krsna" All the sages, all the saintly persons, they have accepted Krsna. Just like Arjuna, when he understood Bhagavad-gita, he immediately accepted Krsna: param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. This is understanding of Krsna. Sarvam etad rtam manye yan mam vadasi kesava [Bg. 10.14]. "Kesava, whatever You have spoken, I take it altogether as it is." Sarvam etad rtam manye [Bg. 10.14]. All fact. And they are manufacturing some meaning. How they'll understand Krsna? This is going on. And our, this movement has become little successful.... People give me such credit, "Swamiji, you have done wonderful." But I do not know what wonderful. I do not know any magic. I simply say that you accept Krsna or Bhagavad-gita as it is. That's all. That is my magic. And they are accepting it. They are accepting Bhagavad-gita as it is. They do not make any interpretation, that "Krsna means this, Kuruksetra means this, Pandavas means this." No. We are presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is. You have seen our Bhagavad-gita? That's all. [break] Before this, before this movement I started ten years ago, so many swamis, philosophers came in the Western country. Not a single person became a devotee of Krsna. That is our challenge. And now you'll find thousands and thousands. Because, what is secret? "As it is," that's all. No change.
Mr. Sahani: But as it is, it is in Sanskrit, and it is very difficult to understand in the...
Prabhupada: Not at all. What is the difficulty? Suppose
So dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre. Kuruksetra is still there, and it is a dharma-ksetra. From Vedic order, Kuruksetra is dharma acaret. Still, people go there by thousands and by millions as pilgrimage. So where is the difficulty dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1]? Unless you make difficulty. But as the literature is, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1], where is the difficulty to understand it? Kuruksetra is there and it is dharma-ksetra. Where is the difficulty? Unless you make it difficult.
Ali: What is the meaning of "as it is."
Prabhupada: "As it is" means Kuruksetra is Kuruksetra, dharma-ksetra is dharma-ksetra. That is "as it is."
Prabhupada: Krsna is Krsna, Pandava is Pandava. That is "as it is."
Ali: Krsna explains who is.
Prabhupada: No, first of all you have to understand. So Krsna is explained Himself, "I am this." Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. "There is no more superior authority than Me." We accept it. Why you accept another authority to understand Krsna? Krsna says mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. So there is no difficulty as it is. But we create difficulty. If somebody asks me, "Where is your nose?" if I say, "Here is my nose." And if I say, "No here," (laughter) then it is difficulty. If I say directly, "Here is my nose," then there will be no difficulty. But if I want to do like this, then it is difficulty. There is no difficulty. We have created difficulty. That is our folly. Therefore there is no result. That is the present position, that we have created difficulty in understanding Bhagavad-gita and we Indians are now practically out of our own culture.
Mrs. Sahani: Those who don't understand Krsna, it's difficult for them.
Prabhupada: How he will understand? He creates difficulty to understand Krsna. Krsna says, "I am the supreme authority," and the person who heard from Krsna, he says param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam [Bg. 10.12]. He accepts Krsna as the supreme authority, Arjuna. And why we deviate? The speaker says that He is the supreme authority, and the listener, Arjuna, accepts Him. Now why we interpret? What right you have got interpretation?
Mrs. Sahani: We interpret it according to our own design.
Prabhupada: Eh? You cannot, if you have own design, don't touch Bhagavad-gita. You make your own design and preach otherwise. Why you take advantage of the Bhagavad-gita? This is criminal. If you have got a different philosophy, you preach. Everyone has got the right. But why you misinterpret Bhagavad-gita? When you take advantage of the popularity of Bhagavad-gita and you speak nonsense, that is not good. That has murdered the whole thing. And practically we see that. Bhagavad-gita as it is, you try to understand, you get the benefit and you life is successful. Besides that, interpretation when it is required. When things are understood directly, there is no question of interpretation. The law of interpretation is like this: when the things are not distinct, then you can interpret in your own way, I can interpret in my own way, but when the things are distinct, there is no question of interpretation.
Mrs. Sahani: If that's so, then we don't understand because we don't want to understand.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the folly. You don't want to understand.
Mrs. Sahani: Because we have so many desire, we don't want to surrender.
Prabhupada: We want to become bigger than Krsna, than Arjuna. This is our folly. But the process is, as recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. You have to understand from the higher authorities.
As soon as you give up this line of understanding, then it is lost. Yogo nastah parantapa. Then you are dealing in not Bhagavad-gita, something else, something rubbish. Yogo nastah, it is nastah, it is spoiled. As soon as you interpret, it is spoiled. First of all, why you should interpret? If the meaning is clear, there is no chance of interpreting. If the meaning is not clear, then you can interpret. Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre [Bg. 1.1] is clear. Why should you interpret? Baliye (Hindi) If dharma-ksetra kuru-ksetra is clear, why would you interpret? When things are clear, interpretation means you are playing joke. So our, this movement presenting Bhagavad-gita as it is. So they are being accepted all over the world, and we are getting good devotees, sincere devotees. All parts of the world.
Ali: In choosing a master you mentioned that the choice is yours, but you have to know what you are after. For instance, if you are after...
Prabhupada: Our offer is you surrender to God. Now it is you choice, whether you want to surrender not. That is you business. We are offering everyone that you surrender to Krsna, or God. Krsna also says the same thing, "You surrender to Me," and we are asking, "You surrender to Krsna." The business is the same, there is no change, as it is. Krsna says, "You surrender to Me," we say, "You surrender to Krsna." There is no difference. As it is.
Ali: My question was how could one choose when he himself is ignorant?
Prabhupada: By knowledge. Here is knowledge. You have not surrendered to God, you take the knowledge from God that "You surrender to Me." That is knowledge. Why don't you take it? Where is the question of ignorance? You may be in ignorance, but when the knowledge comes directly, that "You surrender to Me," then you can do it. Just like a man is fallen in a dark well. He's crying, "Save me, save me," and one man drops a rope, "Please catch it, I'll save you." If you don't catch, then whose fault it is? Krsna comes directly, paritranaya sadhunam [Bg. 4.8], and He says, "Do it." If you don't do it, then whose fault it is? It is your fault. You don't catch it. Krsna says, "Here is the rope, catch it," then whose fault is it?
Mrs. Sahani: Excuse me, once you surrender to God, will you still have to look for an authority to guide you, or Krsna helps you to find Him?
Prabhupada: Yes, Krsna is giving direction, but we have no such intelligence. Therefore Krsna advises:
You go to a person who has seen the truth and you understand. Because they are not understanding Krsna directly or through the agent, they are misled, they are misinterpreting. That is their folly. They'll not understand Krsna directly, neither they'll understand through Krsna's agent. Therefore they are misguided.
Mrs. Sahani: But is it possible to understand Krsna directly?
Prabhupada: No. You can if you are intelligent enough. Otherwise, everyone can take to Krsna consciousness. He says directly everyone. He's not saying to Arjuna: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. Why don't you do it? Because you cannot understand it. If you understood, you have done it immediately. But you do not understand. Therefore Krsna-tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti [Bg. 4.34]you have to understand through the person who tatva-darsinah, who has seen Krsna. Tattva-darsi, not theoretical. You have to approach such person, then he will show you, "Here is Krsna." But if you don't follow the instruction in Bhagavad-gita directly or indirectly.... Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66], if you do not do that and because you may not understand Krsna.... But Krsna also says tad viddhi pranipatena... You do not go to a seer, then how you'll understand Krsna? You do not understand directly or indirectly. Then you are hopeless.
Mrs. Sahani: If you don't understand Krsna directly...
Prabhupada: Neither indirectly. If you don't understand directly, you should go to a person who understands Krsna. But if you don't do either of these things, then how you'll understand Krsna?
Mrs. Sahani: But how to, because in India there's so many...
Prabhupada: Don' talk of India; at any place.
Mrs. Sahani: Any place, yes. But how do we be sure that this person knows Krsna?
Atreya Rsi: How can she be sure that the spiritual master is bona fide?
Prabhupada: If when you see that he does not speak anything except Krsna, that is tattva-darsi. If you are expert businessman in certain line, you have no other business than to talk with on that line. Suppose if you are to purchase some gold, then you have to go to the gold market for dealing with gold. Why should we go to the ice market? That is your ignorance. If you want to know Krsna, then you have to know from the persons who are dealing with Krsna. That's all. They have no other business. Our Krsna consciousness movement means we are dealing with Krsna. That's all. We're writing books, so many books for Krsna. We are preaching and going country to country. We simple deal with Krsna. Therefore the movement is known as "Krsna consciousness." Somebody suggested "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" No, if I say "God consciousness," they'll bring so many gods. It is very simple. If we take it seriously, then benefit is there. But if we hesitate, it is our misfortune.
To understand Krsna is not a joke. Manusyanam sahasresu-out of millions and millions of persons, kascid yatati siddhaye, one may try for perfection of life. And yatatam api siddhanam [Bg. 7.3], and out of many such persons who have attained perfection, kascin vetti mam tattvatah, somebody may know. So to understand Krsna is not so easy job. But Krsna personally comes and teaches about Himself, and still if we do not take, that is our misfortune. If we still interpret, misinterpret rather, then it is our misfortune. What can be done? We should, those who are Indians, Bharatavarsi, we have got a particular duty. Bharata bhumite haila manusya janma yara [Cc. Adi 9.41]. One who has taken birth as a human being in India, he should make his life perfect and distribute the knowledge. So you are outside India, you make your life perfect and distribute this knowledge. This is the duty of Indians. Why outside India they should remain in darkness? Distribute the knowledge. But unless you make your life perfect, how you can distribute?
Mrs. Sahani: Takes very long.
Prabhupada: Eh? Very easy, provided you want to do it.
Mrs. Sahani: But takes long time to surrender to Krsna.
Prabhupada: No long time, I say a moment. Krsna says sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66]. You do it. You can do it in a moment, but you'll not do it. That is the difficulty.
Mrs. Sahani: Yes, we are doing that.
Prabhupada: You can do it immediately, but unfortunately you'll not do it. What can be done? There is a story, I may narrate it. One poor man was begging on the street, and Lord Siva and Parvati was passing as ordinary man. So Parvati requested Lord Siva that this poor man, he's asking, he's begging, so requested him, "Why don't you give him something?" And Lord Siva replied, "Even if I give, he'll not be able to enjoy it. He's so unfortunate." "Oh, that we shall see. Why don't you give?" So Lord Siva, in a watermelon, gave him, say, one thousand dollars. "You take this watermelon." So he thanked him, and after that he thought "What I shall do with this watermelon?" So another man came, "Sir, if you take this watermelon and give me one anna." So he gave one anna and he took it. Because he had no good fortune to take that money within the watermelon. Our fortune is like that. Krsna is giving us the final benefit, but we are not taking care of. This is our misfortune.
Mr. Sahani: It is knowledge, that we don't have the knowledge, or enlightenment that in that watermelon there is something which is worth, or it is only that we don't want to do it, or we don't want to take the trouble?
Prabhupada: That chance is there. You can take the watermelon and cut it, but before that doing if you give it to somebody else, that is your misfortune.
Mr. Sahani: No, fortune is something which we say...
Prabhupada: No, I am talking of misfortune. That the perfect knowledge is being distributed by Krsna, but we are so misfortunate we do not take it. That is my fault. Krsna...
Mr. Sahani: Misfortune is again, is not in the hands of human being.
Prabhupada: No, misfortune is your creation. Fortune... Man is the architect of his own fortune. So you can create your fortune and misfortune. That is the world, going on, so many people, they are working, somebody is creating fortune, somebody is creating misfortune. So anyway, when Krsna directly is giving you the knowledge, perfect knowledge, why don't you take it? Is it not misfortune?
Mr. Sahani: Well, that probably is ignorance.
Prabhupada: THat is misfortune. Ignorance means misfortune. The unfortunate persons are those who are ignorant, uneducated. Therefore you have to take education to become fortunate. And that education is being imparted by Krsna, but you don't take it. That is misfortune. If you take education from Krsna, you become fortunate. So why don't you take it? Krsna has said this very thing.
These are the classes. One who does not take the advantage of Krsna's instruction, he's immediately grouped in these category: duskrtinah, mudhah, naradhamah, mayayapahrta-jnana, asuram bhavam. Krsna says personally. One who does not take to Krsna's instruction, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66], then how he's grouped? He's grouped:
He is grouped. Duskrtinah means he has got intelligence, krti. Krti means one who has got intelligence, merit. But his merit is being utilized for sinful activities, duskrtinah. If merit is used for good work, that is called sukrtina. And if the merit is used for manufacturing something harmful to the human society, then it is duskrtina. Merit is there. A thief, rascal and cheater, he has got good merit, but he's using it for bad purpose. They are duskrtina. Why he has become so? Mudhah. Because he does not know his interest, ass. The example is ass, mudhah. The ass does not know his interest. He is loading tons of cloth for others' interest, for a morsel of grass. And the rascal does not know he can get grass anywhere. Why he is taking so much trouble? Mudhah. Na mam duskrtino, naradhamah. And this human life was meant for understanding this, nara, but he has misused his life's asset. Naradhamah, lowest of the mankind. How it happened? They are so educated. mayayapahrta-jnana. Their education has no value. Why? Asuram bhavam, don't care for Krsna, don't care for God. "We are everything, we are God." This is going on. mayayapahrta-jnana asuram bhavam asritah. These are descriptions in the Bhagavad-gita.
catur-vidha bhajante mam
janah sukrtino 'rjuna
arto jijnasur artharthi
jnani ca bharatarsabha
[Bg. 7.16]
Everything is explained there. If somebody comes to Krsna even with material motive, arto artharthi... There are four classes of men: arto, artharthi, jnani, jijnasur. So jnani, for the sake of knowledge, tries to understand what is God, what is Krsna. Jijnasur, inquisitive, actually what is Krsna. And those who are less than them, when they become distressed, artha, or in need of money, they pray to Krsna. Still, they have gone to Krsna. Therefore they are called sukrtinah. And one who has not gone to Krsna, simply speculating, that description, mayayapahrta-jnana. These things are there.
Mr. Sahani: Maya is also very attached to everybody, it still can be jijnasur and jnani, (Hindi).
Prabhupada: No, no. (Hindi) Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. Your first business is to surrender. Then maya will not touch you.
Mrs. Sahani: Krsna says that not even a leaf moves without His desire, and this present life...
Prabhupada: Yes, you have to take sanction. You have to take sanction because Krsna is the supreme controller. If you request repeatedly, "Krsna, I want to steal something," so Krsna will say, "No, no, don't do it, it is not good." But...
Mrs. Sahani: But bhakti...
Prabhupada: It is not bhakti, it is a common affair. You want to do some... Just like a thief. A thief steals very privately, why? Because Krsna says, "Don't do it." But he does still. So Krsna says always good things, but you don't care for it.
Mr. Sahani: But when, as said, that no leaf moves without the intentions of Krsna...
Prabhupada: Without hearing the good advice of Krsna, he does it at his risk. That's all. He'll be arrested, he'll be put into jail. That's all. He'll suffer. But Krsna gives him good counsel, "Don't do it." Mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg. 15.15]. He's situated in every heart, but if you persist to do something, He gives, "All right, do at your risk. What can I do?" You suffer. That independence you have got. Just like State. State does not advise anyone that "You become a criminal." But when he becomes criminal, then put into jail. State says, "Everyone go to the university, be educated," but if you make your choice, go to the prison house, you can make your choice. Similarly, Krsna says everyone, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. But if you make your choice to go to hell, what can He do?
Mrs. Sahani: This means we have the freedom.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, you he got little freedom. Therefore Krsna says mam ekam saranam vraja, "You do it." He does not force. He can force you. He's all-powerful. But He does not force. He gives you the chance, "Do it, you'll be happy." If you don't do it, that is your choice. Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Eh? Find out this verse. Yathecchasi tatha kuru. Krsna gives Arjuna the freedom, "Now I have given you all instruction, now make your choice." Yathecchasi tatha kuru. "Whatever you like, you do." What is the difficulty? Could not find? Ask somebody else.
Atreya Rsi: Hari-sauri's trying.
Prabhupada: Why don't you ask Pradyumna?
Hari-sauri: He's way upstairs...
Prabhupada: But downstairs he cannot come!
Hari-sauri: Well, I tried to look it up in the index.
Prabhupada: Index is not there. It is in the middle, yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63]. Index you'll find only the beginning. Just after, just before the verse sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66].
Prabhupada: Ah, iti te jnanam.
Hari-sauri: ...akhyatam guhyad guhyataram maya vimrsyaitad asesena yathecchasi tatha kuru.
Prabhupada: "I have given you knowledge, confidential, more confidential, most confidential. Now you consider, you deliberate upon this and do whatever you like." And what Arjuna replied? Nasto mohah smrtir labdha tvat-prasadan kesava. Find it.
nasto mohah smrtir labdha
tvat-prasadan mayacyuta
sthito 'smi gata-sandehah...
Prabhupada: Sthito 'smi gata-sandehah karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73]. This is understanding. "Now my illusion is gone," nasto mohah. Smrtir labdha. "I am in my original consciousness." So what you'll do? Karisye vacanam tava. "You are asking to me to fight? I shall do it." Everything is explained. Krsna gives you freedom, yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63]. And one who understands Krsna, he says, karisye vacanam tava. That's it. Not by interpretation, or refuse by interpretation. That is not Krsna's... Karisye vacanam tava. This is understanding. Otherwise simply waste of time. Srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. If you like, you can waste your time. And find out this verse, na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah [Bg. 18.69], ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati [Bg 18.68]. Find that verse, ya idam paramam guhyam mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati.
Pradyumna: What's the first word?
Hari-sauri: Jayanam.
Prabhupada: Read, after sixty-fourth verse, read all the verses.
"Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit."
man-mana bhava mad-bhakto
mad-yaji mam namaskuru
mam evaisyasi satyam te
pratijane priyo 'si me
[Bg. 18.65]
"Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend."
"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reaction. Do not fear."
idam te natapaskaya
nabhaktaya kadacana
na casusrusave vacyam
na ca mam yo 'bhyasuyati
"This confidential knowledge may not be explained to those who are not austere, or devoted, or engaged in devotional service, nor to one who is envious of Me."
"For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."
na ca tasman manusyesu
kascin me priya-krttamah
bhavita na ca me tasmad
anyah priyataro bhuvi
[Bg. 18.69]
"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear."
Prabhupada: This is decided, that if we present this Bhagavad-gita as it is, ya idam param? What is that? Ya idam paramam guhyam [Bg 18.68]?
Prabhupada: Asamsayah. So he becomes immediately recognized by Krsna. If you preach Bhagavad-gita as it is, immediately you become recognized. Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah [Bg. 18.69]. So one has to understand it perfectly well and then preach, then his life is perfect. And what Sanjaya says? Yatra yogesvaro?
yatra yogesvarah krsno
yatra partho dhanur-dharah
tatra srir vijayo bhutir
dhruva nitir matir mama
Prabhupada: Jaya.
Pradyumna: "Wherever there is Krsna, the master of all mystics, and wherever there is Arjuna, the supreme archer, there will also certainly be opulence, victory, extraordinary power, and morality. That is my opinion."
Prabhupada: So understand Krsna like Arjuna. Then Krsna is there, Arjuna is there, and all victory is there.
Mrs. Sahani: Krsna is Krsna. Anyone who surrenders to Krsna can become Arjuna? Krsna is Krsna, anyone who surrenders to Krsna...
Prabhupada: He's like Arjuna. He's like Arjuna. What is Arjuna's qualification? He surrendered, and he says karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73]. You become also Arjuna-like.
Mrs. Sahani: And the victory is there.
Prabhupada: Yes, then victory is there. But if one can avoid Krsna or kill Krsna, then where is victory?
Mrs. Sahani: Victory.
Prabhupada: Victory, any man you can say victory. Where there is Krsna, there is victory.
Mr. Sahani: But we don't want to go and fight like Arjuna, go out and kill people.
Prabhupada: Why? If Krsna orders, you must. Why don't you like? That is your misfortune. What Krsna's... Karisye vacanam tava. That is following. You like or may not like. Arjuna did not like to fight. That's a fact. Therefore whole Bhagavad-gita is spoken to him. Arjuna did not like fight. But when he understood Bhagavad-gita, he said, "Yes," karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73]. You cannot give your verdict. What Krsna says, you have to do it. That is Krsna conscious. You like or don't like, that doesn't matter. Just like a child. He likes or not likes, but what the parent says, he has to do. That is his success. If the child says, "Father, I don't like to go to school," will the father agree? "No, you must go to school." And if he agrees, that is his benefit. Our liking, not liking, has no value. What Krsna likes, we have to do it. Anukulyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc. Madhya 19.167], that is bhakti. Bhakti means anukulyena krsnanu-silanam. You have to act which is favorable to Krsna. That is bhakti. You cannot make you choice. What Krsna says, you do it. That is bhakti. [break] What is their reason?
Mrs. Sahani: Well, they were not even Krsna conscious people.
Prabhupada: Who?
Mrs. Sahani: Kauravas.
Prabhupada: Kaurava, oh. Yes. No, not that they are not Krsna conscious, they may be. That's all right. My business is to execute what Krsna says. That's all. That is bhakti.
Anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady anavrtam anukulyena krsnanu [Brs. 1.1.11]. We have to act to satisfy Krsna. That is bhakti. We cannot make our choice, that "This is good, this is bad." Whatever Krsna says is all right. Then it is bhakti. Arjuna proposed that "Krsna, why shall I fight with my brothers? After all, they are my brothers. They are enjoying the kingdom. Let them enjoy. I shall better live by begging. Why shall I fight with them?" It is a very good proposal, very gentlemanlike. But Krsna said, "No, you must fight." Kutas tva kasmalam idam visame samupasthitam anarya-justam"You're talking like anarya. Fight." This is the instruction of the Bhagavad-gita. And when he understood that "Krsna wants it," he said, "Yes"karisye vacanam tava [Bg. 18.73]. "Yes." So we cannot discriminate what is good or bad. We have to act according to the order of Krsna. That is wanted. But you cannot do independently also. When Krsna orders, you do it. And Krsna will order when you are faithful servant. Buddhi-yogam dadami tam.
tesam evanukampartham
aham ajnana-jam tamah
nasayamy atma...
[Bg. 10.11]
This is the process. If we manufacture our own ways, that is nonsense, that will not help us.
Mr. Sharma: When one person surrenders to God, to Lord Krsna, so does maya automatically vanish?
Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says...
Mr. Sharma: If I say, I pray to God, "O Lord Krsna, I surrender unto You." So is..., maya will not touch me? I will not be affected by this material infection?
Prabhupada: Yes. If you fully surrender, maya will not touch you.
Mr. Sharma: How one surrenders? What is meaning of surrender?
Prabhupada: Surrender as He says, sarva-dharman... You have nothing to do. You have simply to do what Krsna says. That is surrender. You cannot reserve anything, that "I do it something for me and something for Krsna." That is not surrender. You have nothing to do except what Krsna says. That is surrender.
Mr. Sharma: If that is surrender, means I now surrender.
Prabhupada: Otherwise, it's not surrender.
Mr. Sharma: Only saying is not surrender?
Prabhupada: You have to act, become active.
Mr. Sharma: So one who has surrendered, what is his thinking and acting, how he lives in the world?
Prabhupada: He's active only on Krsna's business. That's all. He has no other business.
Mr. Sharma: So he does no other work. He does only what Krsna has said.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Sharma: Preaching and this and that.
Prabhupada: Yes, just like we are doing. Krsna said, "Surrender unto Me." And what we are preaching? We are preaching, "Sir, you surrender to Krsna." So what is the difficulty? Is there any difficulty? Krsna said "Surrender unto Me." And if I go to you "Mr. Sharma, you surrender to Krsna." So what is my difficulty?
Mr. Sharma: Suppose I want to surrender to God, to Krsna. How I will do it?
Prabhupada: No, no, first of all my position, because I am working on behalf of Krsna. So Krsna says, "You surrender unto Me." So if I say that "Sir, you surrender to Krsna," so where is my difficulty?
Mr. Sharma: You see, yes, I say I surrender to Krsna.
Prabhupada: You surrender, not surrender, that is you business. But my business is that I am requesting you that you surrender to Krsna. So where is my difficulty? You surrender, not, that is your business. But my business is to canvass, "Sir, you surrender to Krsna." So I am representing. And Krsna says, na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamah [Bg. 18.69]. I have to be recognized by Krsna. That is my business. So if I do agree, then I become recognized by Krsna. You do or not do, that is your business. My only business is to request you.
Mr. Sharma: That I should surrender.
Prabhupada: Yes. But if you accept it, it is good for you; you don't accept it, that is your misfortune. But my business is finished.
Mr. Sharma: So fortune comes very much into it.
Prabhupada: Fortune you create. Man is the architect of his own fortune. If you don't accept Krsna's advice, then unfortunate. But my business is not difficult. We are simply going door to door and asking, "Sir, you become a devotee of Krsna." If he is inquisitive, "How can I become?" "You chant Hare Krsna." So where is my difficulty? Haven't got to pay you something. I simply carry the message of Krsna. And Krsna says na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya [Bg. 18.69]. "He's My most beloved person, who does this." So why shall I give up this simple job and become recognized by Krsna? It is very simple thing. That is the advice of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "All of you become guru and deliver these persons where you live." So how can I become guru? I have no education, I have no knowledge. No, no. You haven't got to-yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You go and simply instruct him what Krsna has said, you become guru." So Krsna has said, "Surrender unto Me," I say "You surrender to Krsna," I become guru. Even though I am a fool number one, I become guru, because I am repeating what Krsna has said. That's all. I don't require any education. Very simple thing. Everyone can become guru if he simply repeats what Krsna has said, that's all.
Mrs. Sahani: So it seems that to surrender to Krsna, the first thing...
Prabhupada: Unless he surrenders, how he can say others to surrender? Unless one has fully surrendered, if he says to others, "You surrender," that has no meaning. He must have surrendered. Then he can say to others, "You surrender." Unless he has surrendered, how he can take up this business, go door to door and say, "You surrender to Krsna, you surrender to Krsna"? That means he has surrendered. He has no other business. And what I am doing? I am doing the same thing. I have not given any bribe to these Europeans, Americans, or the anyone. No bribe, no show of gold manufacture. I simply say this, "You just become devotee of Krsna." That's all.
Mrs. Sahani: Chanting Krsna's name is very essential.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is the easiest way. By chanting Krsna, you are associating with Krsna. Because Krsna is absolute, so Krsna and Krsna's name, no difference. Krsna, Krsna's name, Krsna's form, Krsna's quality, everything, absolute. So chanting of Krsna's name means you are associating with Krsna. So if you are associating with Krsna, then gradually you become Krsna-ite.
Mrs. Sahani: Creates the desire to get knowledge.
Prabhupada: Yes. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has recommended, param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam, ceto-darpana-marjanam. Just like if you remain in touch with the fire, certainly you become warm. So if you remain always in touch with Krsna, then you become Krsnized. Very easy. You haven't gone to the forest or Himalaya or meditate. Simply chant Hare Krsna. That is recommended in the sastra: harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam, kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva [Cc. Adi 17.21]. You cannot perform any severe austerities, penance. Wherever you remain, you chant Hare Krsna. And you become perfect. If not in one day... But you will become, if you continue chanting. And where is the difficulty? Where is the loss? And if there is some gain, why don't you try it? That is intelligence. I am not losing anything by chanting Hare Krsna. If there is any gain, why not chant? Huh? Why is the argument not to chant? There is no loss, but if there is any profit, why don't you try to take it. Sastra recommends. Krsna recommends, satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drdha-vratah [Bg. 9.14]. Find out this verse. Satatam kirtayanto mam.
satatam kirtayanto mam
yatantas ca drdha-vratah
namasyantas ca mam bhaktya
nitya-yukta upasate
[Bg. 9.14]
Prabhupada: This is bhakti. So everything is there. If we don't misinterpret and take as it is, then we'll benefit. That is fortune. If somebody has one lakh of rupees and if he does not utilize it, then he is unfortunate. And if he's fortunate he can utilize it, he can make it millions of dollars. So the knowledge is already there, you haven't go to manufacture or speculate. You take it, you become perfect. We are preaching this Krsna consciousness, we don't manufacture anything. Here is this knowledge, Bhagavad-gita, just take it. Already it is there, everything. We haven't got to manufacture something, concoct something. Everything is there. You refer, you get knowledge, and be fortunate. Prasadam?
Atreya Rsi: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Cut this fruit and distribute it. Bring one knife.
Atreya Rsi: We have prasadam downstairs.
Prabhupada: No, bring it here.
Hari-sauri: Do you want to take any...
Prabhupada: I will take little milk.
Hari-sauri: Any puffed rice or anything like that?
Prabhupada: You have puffed rice?
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: So puffed rice and milk. (Hindi) We are now advertised all over the world, "The beggar's nation." We have got satsampatti, and we are now advertised "beggar's nation." And actually doing that.
Mrs. Sahani: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. If you voluntarily become entangled with maya, that is your business. (Hindi) Krsna is light and maya is darkness. So when there is light, there is no question of darkness. Darkness automatically will go. When there will be sunrise in the morning, you haven't got to endeavor to drive away the darkness of night. It will automatically go. (Hindi) Knowledge is already there. Why should you remain misfortunate? Krsna says sukrtino 'rjuna. Catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino 'rjuna. Sukrtino means fortunate. So as soon as you begin Krsna bhajana, immediately you become fortunate. Sukrtino 'rjuna. Catur-vidha bhajante mam sukrtino 'rjuna. (Hindi) Immediately begin krsna-bhajana.
If we don't do it, then we are neglecting our duty. (Hindi) What is this, peach?
Atreya Rsi: It's a kind of peach. It's like peach.
Mr. Sharma: There are many other Indians living in town, so can we arrange one day that you come to town and meet all of them at our place or another place if it is possible?
Prabhupada: That will depend on...
Atreya Rsi: Can they come here? We can arrange for transportation. Because it's not very easy with the traffic.
Prabhupada: No, if they arrange meeting, we can go.
Mr. Sharma: And we can have some bhajana and prasada.
Mrs. Sahani: We can make it on Friday.
Atreya Rsi: Friday Srila Prabhupada is traveling. And Thursday at 11:30 you're going to see that building.
Prabhupada: I think within so short time it will (not) be possible for holding a meeting.
Atreya Rsi: For a short time?
Prabhupada: No, because there are two days only. On Thursday we have got already engagement.
Atreya Rsi: Yes, we have an engagement for Thursday.
Prabhupada: Then tomorrow only. So I don't think it will be possible.
Mr. Sharma: Thursday evening it is not possible?
Prabhupada: No.
Atreya Rsi: We're going to travel already into town once Thursday. We got some Persian puffed rice. They make puffed rice.
Prabhupada: I'll take. You first of all give them.
Atreya Rsi: We'll go downstairs and have prasadam.
Prabhupada: All right. Thank you very much for your coming. Jaya. (end)

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