751103MW.BOM

Giriraja: So we told them that we didn't want... They were putting in a permanent one. So we stopped that, and... [aside:] Saurabha Prabhu, did he say that he would also remove the present one?

Saurabha: Well, he couldn't do that immediately because this one has been there for twenty-five years. But they will try to get rid of all these things.

Prabhupada: Rather inconvenient to Mr. Mhatre, because in front, practically. We have got wall. We have no very much objection. And how will they allow? [break]

Giriraja: Have a gate in the middle of the wall and so many people will be passing. It will be a big international center, so it will look bad for India that...

Prabhupada: Yes. So stick to that point. That's nice. [break] ...may take advantage of offering obeisances, consciously or unconsciously. [break]

Dr. Patel: ...examination. My son and his wife came. Especially for them... They don't have other holidays. Practically they are locked up in the college. God wants to help them to get released.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna! [Transl. Is your health all right?] [break] Nobody could occupy it. What is the use of the fighting?

Dr. Patel: I have heard that the man could have first landed on this Bungalow. His wife has divorced him.

Prabhupada: Nobody landed. This is all bogus.

Dr. Patel: No, no, whatever he did... Let us... It is all bogus, but that man is divorced by his wife because he has lost his sex. Somebody told me.

Prabhupada: There are many cases. This is the statement in the Bhagavata. Dampatye ratim eva hi: [SB 12.2.3] "Marriage relationship will continue only on sex power, that's all." If one is weak in sex power, the marriage will be canceled.

Dr. Patel: You must have read all that. Tell are there any good messages, tell part of it, how actually a marriage is, can be for production of good progeny once only.

Prabhupada: Yes. Putrarthe kriyate bharya putra-pinḍa-prayojanam. [you require a wife to beget a son and a son is required to offer oblations to the forefathers.] This, the first, pinḍa-dana, for maintaining family. But nowadays nobody wants offspring. They want to kill to avoid botheration.

Dr. Patel: First they prevent, and if by accident it happens, then they kill it. And the medical profession help them.

Prabhupada: Help them. Before my speaking you are saying. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: I am against it, no doubt. Once upon a time I used to be the doctor of all these so-called cinema actors and actresses, and you know their profession. And they are always falling prey of these sort of things, and they would come to me for relief, and I would refuse. So today I have none of them as my patient.

Prabhupada: But you cannot relieve them.

Dr. Patel: No, I mean have taken a vow not to do wrong things. That is why I am here in your company. Otherwise I would be somewhere in... [laughs] That is very common in Bombay.

Prabhupada: Not only Bombay; all over the world. Now it is imported in India also, to get relief of pregnancy. This is...

Yasomatinandana: There is a big board in Andheri railway station. It says, "For abortion and for family planning come here and get your free treatment."

Dr. Patel: [Transl. Laughs. Free treatment!] The college boys are taking advantage of this.

Indian man (1): [Transl. And how good it is that] always you can get the beer, all beer, every place!

Dr. Patel: Cold beer? For what?

Indian man (1): [Transl. Yes, cold beer for drinking. Everywhere you will find this, especially in all the Iranian hotels.]

Dr. Patel: No, because I don't drink. I don't know.

Indian man (1): [Transl. In each and every hotel in Bombay.]

Dr. Patel: I have not taken tea even in England during my education, because I am not to take tea. I am totally teetotaler of the right way. We have in lot of different ways. The society is right from the beginning body conscious, more or less, we. We are not taught even during our age of education that we are not this body and something else. This was being done in ancient times, our forefathers. When the boys were going to the guru, in asrama, they were first taught this, that "You are not this body; you are something else." And here you are taught you are body, so you have to take exercise.

Prabhupada: That is the first education, first instruction in the Bhagavad-gita, beginning of Bhagavad-gita-dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha dehantara-praptiḥ [Bg 2.13]. Unless one understands that "There is change of body, and I am spirit soul within this body," he remains a cat and dog, and that's all. Dehatma-buddhiḥ... Yasyatma-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhatuke, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13].

So we are keeping this civilization-animal civilization. How there can be peace? You cannot make several dogs, bring them together as nation, and they will live peacefully. It is not possible, that "You all dogs come here and feel nationally and be peaceful." Will the dogs will be able to do that? Because you are dog, it is not possible.

Dr. Patel: They fight among themselves for nothing.

Prabhupada: Yes. So they are keeping them cats and dogs by education, culture, and they want to be happy. How it is possible? First of all let them come to the standard of human being. Then there is question of peace and happiness. They are kept as cats and dogs, and how there can be peace? You cannot make any peace in the dog society. That is not possible. Hare Krsna. So that consciousness can come only when one is spiritually educated. If he is simply engaged for satisfying the senses, material, then he remains a cat and dog. You cannot expect any peace.

Dr. Patel: I think the greatest damage done to this civilization of Aryans of India was by Macaulay, who introduced the British system of education.

Prabhupada: But why you accepted that? [laughter]

Dr. Patel: For the sake of nationalism.

Prabhupada: Why you accepted? Then why don't you accept? You should have refused.

Dr. Patel: Well, we were not there to refuse. We came afterwards. Our forefathers were then minors...

Prabhupada: No, you can... Just like they are reforming. Their forefathers were drunkards, woman-hunters, [laughter] and they are reformed, the great-grandchildren. And we old men, we cannot do that.

Dr. Patel: I talk of Macaulay...

Prabhupada: Macaulay may mislead you. Why you should be misled?

Dr. Patel: He has misled our forefathers.

Prabhupada: No, why you should be misled?

Dr. Patel: Now we are going to lead them. Are you not leading them?

Prabhupada: Yes. Your forefathers might have been misled, but why you will commit the same mistake again?

Dr. Patel: Now we have improved upon the mistake and we are leading them, and we will lead them.

Prabhupada: No, that is not the fact. These boys, European, American boys, they were misled from the very beginning of their life, but how they are improving in spiritual consciousness? The thing is, we are not prepared to take up our own culture. That is...

Dr. Patel: That's right, sir. God must have some..., something to fulfill. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Take for example our big leader, Mahatma Gandhi. He was supposed to be very good scholar in Bhagavad-gita. Did he ever preach that "You are not this body"?

Dr. Patel: I come from the asrama. Yes, he did.

Prabhupada: Then where is the question of nationalism?

Dr. Patel: He never says... When he went to England...

Prabhupada: Then why he asked the Europeans to go out, "Quit India"?

Dr. Patel: Because they were exploiting poor people. There was a question of uniformity of people. There was no question of...

Prabhupada: No, there cannot be uniformity. On the bodily concept of life there cannot be any uniformity. That is a... When uniformity comes? Samaḥ sarvesu bhūtesu. When? Brahma-bhūtaḥ. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannatma na socati na kahksati [Bg 18.54]. Then uniformity. You have no knowledge of Brahman. You are living like cats and dogs. How there can be uniformity? That is not possible. [break] Practically you see uniformity. Somebody is coming from Europe; somebody, America; somebody, Africa; somebody, Canada; somebody, Hindu; somebody, Muslim; somebody, Christian. How they are becoming unified? Because on the Brahman platform. And if you remain in this bodily concept of life, there is no question of uniformity. Paramo nirmatsaranam. This uniformity means "I am envious of you; you are envious of me." This is our position. Bhagavata says that this Bhagavata culture is meant for paramo nirmatsaranam [SB 1.1.2].

So if you remain in the material platform, there is no question of nirmatsara. Para-utkarsa-asahanam. [to not be able to tolerate others' prosperity] This is called matsarata. [enviousness] The whole basic principle... Unless you come to the spiritual platform, there is no question of uniformity, peace, prosperity. Nothing. Therefore our movement is "Change consciousness. Come to the spiritual platform, Krsna conscious. Then everything will be all right." Otherwise not possible. What is that, mam aprapyaiva mūḍha janmani janmani [Bg 16.20]?

Dr. Patel: Aprapyaiva mam eva.

Prabhupada: One who is not Krsna conscious, he is birth after birth he will be pushed into the atheist family, that's all. Mūḍha janmani janmani asuresu [Bg 16.20]. What is that verse?

Dr. Patel: Mam aprapya adhamam...

Prabhupada: Adhamamam gatim. So their result is they'll go down and down, that's all.

Dr. Patel: Then how he comes up?

Prabhupada: By Krsna consciousness.

Dr. Patel: Tri-gunasya. [the three material qualities]

Prabhupada: That is,

If you engage him in devotional service, immediately he is transferred to the spiritual platform. That is wanted.

Dr. Patel: Kamaḥ krodhas tatha lobhas tasmad evam... Tri-vidham narakasya-dvaram. [Bg 16.21]

Prabhupada: Ah. Yes. On the material platform, he... The human life is meant for spiritual culture. Athato brahma-jijnasa. But they have rejected. They are simply busy athato deha-jijnasa. That's all. Dehatma-buddhi. [identifying the body as self]

Dr. Patel: I have got little point on this, may be you can enlighten me that after all, the spirituality within you, namely atma, cannot remain independently without this body, so you have got to look after the body in a way.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is not the fact. If you are actually spiritually advanced, you don't care for it. Deha smrti nahi yar samsara bandhana kahan tanra [Narottama dasa Thakura]. It is just like Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. He had no spiritual con... er, material... He was eating every alternate day a little quantity of butter. That's all. How he was living in Vrndavana? So when one is perfectly on the spiritual platform, there is no bodily necessities. That is the sign. Therefore our civilization is to decrease the bodily necessities, not to increase. Control. Control, from the brahmacari, control, control, control. Ultimately completely control. That is perfectional stage. Tyagena. What is that verse?

Dr. Patel: Isavasyam idam sarvam yat kincid jagatyam... .

Prabhupada: No, tapasa brahmacaryena tyagena yamena va [SB 6.1.13]. This is wanted. Tapasa. Beginning. Tapasya means that controlling the senses. That is tapasya. And the tapasya begins...

Dr. Patel: Tapasa achirete brahma.

Prabhupada: Yes. Tapasya means... Beginning is brahmacarya. Tapasa brahmacaryena [SB 6.1.13]. So where is brahmacarya?

Dr. Patel: Brahmam prati carati esa brahmacari. I mean, all the senses. Not only the upasthas: genitals as they say, but all the ten senses, including your mind and the discriminating buddhi, all are directed toward sacred feet of God, and then he does not... That is real brahmacari. I mean, that's what they say.

Prabhupada: That, yes. Devotee means brahmacari. Pure devotee means brahmacari. Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11]. He has no other desire. That is brahmacari.

[break] This building is meant for playing cards. Somebody knows?

Indian man: I told, yes. The other one.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. This one is a club.]

Giriraja: I don't think this one is. No, behind it.

Gopala Krsna: This looks like a residential apartment building.

Giriraja: Indira's daughter stays here. Indira? It belongs to her niece's family.

Dr. Patel: Raheja brothers.

Giriraja: So sometimes her niece was staying here, and she used to come to the temple every day. There's another one which is a club.

Prabhupada: ...tri-dhatuke sva-dhiḥ kalatradisu bhauma iḍya-dhiḥ, yat-tirtha-buddhiḥ salile na karhicij janesu abhijnesu sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13].

[Transl. In South Africa our movement is very successful.]

Dr. Patel: South Africa, majority of them are rooting Holland. Not many other. Hollanders only.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Not English.

Prabhupada: No, there are all kinds of Europeans.

Dr. Patel: No, but majority of them are Hollanders. That is why this..., they were against the Britishers to begin.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. So in South Africa we had very successful programs.

Dr. Patel: You are going to have a temple there?

Prabhupada: Yes, we have already there.

Dr. Patel: Did you go to East Africa also?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Nairobi.

Dr. Patel: Jomo, Jomo wants money from anybody who goes and sees him, as if he's a big god.

Prabhupada: [laughs] But where we have got money?

Dr. Patel: That is what I say. And he has all his money in Switzerland, Swiss banks. This is how they ruling these poor people.

Gopala Krsna: He's one of the richest men in the world.

Devotee (2): Who?

Gopala Krsna: Jomo Kenyatta.

Dr. Patel: [Indistinct] [break]

Prabhupada: ... so what? Prakrteḥ kriyamanani gunaiḥ sarva... [Bg 3.27]. You are fully under the control of the material nature. You must submit.

Dr. Patel: Yam yam va..., tyajanti deham. [Bg 8.6]

Prabhupada: Ah!

Dr. Patel: That is how, I mean, Bharata got mrga [deer-body] because he was continuously in his mind was there.

Prabhupada: No, there is no such education that there are dehantara-praptiḥ [Bg 2.13] and there are 8,400,000 different forms of deha. Which one he is going to get? Nobody is serious about it. He thinks, "Things will go on like this. I am very free to do anything." That is going on. Mūḍha. Mūḍha, rascal. Duskrtino mūḍha. They will never hear the instruction of Bhagavad-gita. They will do whatever he likes and interpret in a different way. [Transl. Therefore God declares] na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante naradhamah [Bg 7.15]. He could take the instruction of Bhagavad-gita and make his life perfect, but because he is mūḍha and full of sinful activities, he will not do that.

Dr. Patel: Mayayapahrta-jnanam asurim bhavam asritaḥ.

Prabhupada: Ah! Although he is very proud of his material knowledge, it has no value. Because he is dependent on the laws of material nature, what his knowledge will help him? Suppose a very big man of this material world, he commits some sin. Does it mean that because he has got big qualification he will be saved from the laws? No. He must suffer. So mama maya duratyaya [Bg 7.14]. You cannot avoid even these material laws, so how you can avoid the nature's law? Mama maya duratyaya. Very, very difficult, but still, they are thinking, "Oh, we are independent. We can do anything." Therefore mūḍhas.

Dr. Patel: Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam...

Prabhupada: Taranti te. Yes. So this is the position. Therefore our propaganda is that "You take Krsna and be Krsna conscious, and then you'll be happy." This is our propaganda. We haven't got to manufacture anything. We have to simply repeat what Krsna has said. That's all.

[aside:] Oh, Hare Krsna. [Transl. Is your health all right?]

Passerby: [Transl. By your mercy.]

Prabhupada: This time I have requested all Nairobi important friends that "Now you take sannyasa and become guru. Krsna..., Caitanya Mahaprabhu asked everyone to become guru. Amara ajnaya guru hana tara ei desa. You have come to Africa. Now become their guru and deliver them." "Now, how shall I do it?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128]:

"Simply speak. Don't become very big ustad [expert]. Simply speak what Krsna has done. That's all. You'll become guru." [Transl. The problem is our over expertise.] "Oh, Krsna has said this. The meaning of this is this," as Krsna left the meaning to be declared or understood by some fools and rascals. This is going on.

Dr. Patel: Sir, what is this,

Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness.

Dr. Patel: Sva-karmana?

Prabhupada: Yes. You are doctor. You can serve Krsna.

Dr. Patel: Sve sve karmany abhirataḥ. [Bg 18.45] According to your, I mean, sva-dharma.

Prabhupada: This is perfection of life, that,

You may do whatever occupational duty you are... But you have to satisfy Krsna. Then your everything is perfect. And if you satisfy your senses, then you are going to hell. This is the position. Therefore it is... Sva-karmana tam abhyarcya. Even that karma is abominable, sa-dosam api na tyajet [Bg 18.48]. You go on with your work. Even there is some fault, it doesn't matter, but you satisfy Krsna. Then it is perfect. Just like Arjuna did. The fighting is not good business, but he satisfied Krsna. Therefore by fighting, he became a great devotee-sva-karmana. He did not leave his position as a ksatriya, as a grhastha, but he... Karisye vacanam tava [Bg 18.73]:

"Yes. In spite of my not being inclined to fight, because You are asking, I'll do it." This is Krsna consciousness.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. Should we return, sir?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Just a little further we will go. Otherwise I will have to wait there every day.] You remain in your place, but you have your ears to hear Krsna. Then you'll be perfect. What is the difficulty? You remain as a doctor. You remain as a pleader. You remain whatever you like. It doesn't matter. But engage your aural reception to the words of Krsna. Then you become perfect. What is the difficulty? Simply sit down and hear what Krsna says, Bhagavad-gita. That's all. And if you say that "I simply hear," and if you do not act, no, you'll act, because as you go on hearing, your heart will be purified. Then you will be inclined to hear..., er, act.

Indian man (3): I was going to ask this question, but... [laughing]

Prabhupada: Yes. Srnvatam sva-katha krsnaḥ punya sravana... [SB 1.2.17] Because by hearing Krsna, you'll be purified. Punya-sravana. Simply by hearing, you'll be pious. And as soon as you become pious, then you can understand Krsna. Yesam tv anta-gatam papam jananam punya... [Bg 7.28]. But nobody will come here. They'll go to the restaurant, club, the playing cards. Nobody will come. We are opening so many centers that the rascals may come and hear and become pious. That will also not do. Caitanya Mahaprabhu regretted that. Etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanu... :

"You have done so much favor to us, but I am so unfortunate that I have no desire to hear You." [Transl. They have time for every work, but to hear about Krsna's topics they have no time.] So much unfortunate.

[break] That I have already explained, that khusamadi kara. [laughter] Yes. Caitanya... One of the disciples of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Prabodhananda Sarasvati, he has taught us,

This is our process. What is that? Now, the Indian system of becoming humble is to take a straw in the mouth. [Transl. Previously this was the system. But now it is forgotten.] Dante nidhaya trnakam: "So I am taken a grass in my mouth," and padayor nipatya, "I am falling down your lotus feet," and krtva ca kaku-satam, "and flattering you hundred times. I am submitting you." So any man will agree, "All right, say." So as soon as you give me the chance, then I say. What I say? He sadhavaḥ: "You are a very great personality, sadhu." "Then? What do you want?" Now, sakalam eva: "Whatever nonsense you have learned, please forget." [laughter] "Whatever nonsense rascaldom you have learned, please forget." "Then what shall I do?" Kuru caitanya-candra-carane anuragam. This is our preaching. First of all we shall...

Dr. Patel: Don't forget architecture. I tell him, don't forget architecture, the important just now. [laughing] Forget other thing.

Prabhupada: Hmm. This is the process. First of all flatter him. When he agrees, "Please tell me..."

Dr. Patel: How he became this.

Prabhupada: Yes. [laughter] Ask submissively, that "Forget all rascaldom, whatever you have learned, because you do not know what is knowledge. You have simply learned all rascaldom. So please forget it." This is our preaching.

Dr. Patel: "Tell me that knowledge by which I know everything, according to that...," that boy? In Upanisad? Chandogya Upanisad.

Prabhupada: Naciketa. So that is, Krsna is speaking. You know everything. By hearing Krsna, you know everything. But we'll not do that. We shall stick to that rascaldom what you have learned. Krsna says, mattaḥ parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7]. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam... [Bg 18.66]. [Transl. When you preach, they say any demigod you can worship.] [break]

Dr. Patel: ...man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65].

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu was eulogized by Rūpa Gosvami, namo maha-vadanyaya krsna-prema-pradaya te [Cc Madhya 19.53].

[aside:] [break] Hare Krsna.

"You are, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, You are the most munificent because You are giving krsna-prema, which is very, very difficult."

[aside:] Jaya. [break] ...not because he... In the beginning I said they will not. [laughter]

Indian man: [Transl. You change your time to visit patients during the morning walk. Otherwise you will not be elevated.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Remain here only. That's why we are constructing so many rooms. You all come and stay. Try to benefit others.] [break]

Dr. Patel: You go to bed at two-thirty.

Prabhupada: No.

Indian man (4): No. Two-thirty. Gets up two o'clock.

Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine o'clock.

Brahmananda: One.

Dr. Patel: I go to bed at nine o'clock, so I get up at three o'clock. So let us do like that. Both of us go to bed at nine o'clock, and three o clock take a bath... [laughs]

Prabhupada: No, I go at ten o'clock and get up by two. [Transl. We have to flatter everyone.] [break]

Dr. Patel: ...vacanam tava. [Bg 18.73]

Prabhupada: Yes. Na ca tasman manusyesu kascin me priya-krttamaḥ [Bg 18.69]. [Transl. Anyone who preaches this, the Lord says, there is no one more dear to Me than him.] If we want to be recognized by Krsna, this is the simple process: go and flatter persons, "Please hear some words from Bhagavad," that's all. And actually we are doing that. We are not learned, very scholarly.

Dr. Patel: Sir, I read your commentary on Bhagavad-gita and Ramanujacarya's. They are absolutely parallel.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: I think you have taken out of it... [laughter]

Prabhupada: How can I...

Dr. Patel: I am just joking.

Prabhupada: No, no. Our process is to take from the acaryas. We are not manufacturing. We are not so fools and rascals that we have to manufacture. We have to take the remnants of foodstuff given by the acarya and explain in the modern way so that people may... That is our business.

Dr. Patel: Completely parallel.

Prabhupada: Yes. Why should I... If it is parallel, then it is my success.

Brahmananda: Yes. It's very complimentary.

Dr. Patel: His Sanskrit is very wonderful. Acarya...

Prabhupada: If it is parallel, that is my success. And if it is not parallel, then it is useless. But they want to give something of his own foolish ideas. That has become nowadays, scholars. If you give some foolish idea-"Oh, he is a great philosopher." That's it. And our process is, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo [Bg 4.2]. We have to receive from the a... Acaryopasanam. [Bg 13.9] That is the way. And this Subodhini-tika, Vallabhacarya, as soon as he says, "I have done something better than Sridhara Svami," immediately Caitanya Mahaprabhu rejected him: "Oh, you have done better than Sridhara Svami?"

Dr. Patel: Sridhara Svami has made it more or less...

Prabhupada: Svami yei na… [Cc Antya 7.115] Whatever it may be, you cannot reject. You cannot say that "I have done better than Sridhara Svami." If you simply following the footprints of Sridhara Svami, that is vaisnava, not that "I have done better than him."

Dr. Patel: All Vaisnava acaryas are more or less parallel.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: There's a little difference here and there. It is not much difference.

Prabhupada: No, there is no difference. Everything. It is, rather, more...

Dr. Patel: In philosophy there is no difference, sir. But in...

Prabhupada: In presentation, clarify. Yes. That is our business. Just like what I am doing. I am following the acaryas, but I am presenting, writing in such a way the modern man can understand. This is our point.

Dr. Patel: Modern man. Modernizing? [laughs]

Prabhupada: Yes. You know him, this boy? He's a great-grandson of Henry Ford. He has contributed to our Society not less than two crores of rupees.

Dr. Patel: He has got money.

Prabhupada: Yes. [Transl. That's why God sent me to America. By His mercy I am printing so many books by begging alms from them. That's why God sent me. Here, it wasn't possible. Just to print three books I became smashed like halava.] [laughter]

Dr. Patel: And printing press was also very not good. Not very good. Your printing is wonderful. From where... Where is that place? From Japan?

Prabhupada: America and Japan. We want wonderful books.

Dr. Patel: Very good.

Indian man (5): I saw that printing of that Magazine. Nobody has printed such books. And also the language also.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. Who translated this] language, Sanskrit into English?

Prabhupada: [Transl. I did myself. And now they have learned it to help editting. They are helping me from all sides. Therefore such a progress. No Indians are coming forward.]

Dr. Patel: Na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante naradhamaḥ mayaya...

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes.] mayayapahrta-jnana... They are very much puffed up of being educated. But Krsna says mayayapahrta-jnana [Bg 7.15].

Dr. Patel: Vedas also depict about maya. That is why nistraigunyo bhavarjuna [Bg 2.45]. No? Am I right?

Prabhupada: [Transl. To come under maya…]

Dr. Patel: They are the old sticks?

Prabhupada: Take it away and replace here.

Dr. Patel: No, I don't want it. [laughter] This has come from South Africa?

Prabhupada: No, no. It was presented by Visalini in Vrndavana. One American girl student, she has given it. [break]

Dr. Patel: Man-mana bhava [Bg 18.65]. Perpetually. It is just like an insect climbing a wall. Immediately it comes down on the ground. It takes about twenty-four hours.

Prabhupada: No, no. If you practice... Just like these boys. They are chanting "Hare Krsna," so their mind is fixed up in Krsna. Man-mana. And they can do it without any being afraid by public criticism, because they are mad-bhakta. They have become bhakta. Others, they will afraid: "I am such-and-such person. If I chant, then what the others will speak?" [laughter] But a devotee is not afraid of anyone.

Indian man (6): No, sir, but body is the temple of God. Vaisnavas pray that...

Prabhupada: That everyone... Dog is also worshiping the body.

Indian man (6): No, [Transl. There is a difference.]

Dr. Patel: We are just now worshiping body, sir. We are worshiping body, and we don't want to worship soul now. That is what he says.

Indian man (6): Body is nothing. The soul is there. That is understood.

Prabhupada: So if you reject soul and simply worship...

Indian man (6): No, soul is there.

Dr. Patel: He wants to say [Transl. that the body is a temple and one has to repair it whenever required.]

Indian man (6): [Transl. You have to maintain it.] [break]

Prabhupada: [Transl. If you simply repair the body and neglect the one who is sitting within that temple then no use. The body will be automatically taken care of. This ear that we have, if you just pull it then the whole thing will come. No need of separate endeavour. If I pull by your ear the head will also come.]

Indian man (6): That is a fact.

Prabhupada: So if you take spiritually advanced, the bodily care is already taken.

Dr. Patel: That is what I have learned. That you were saying before, but then, I mean I got a pusti [confirmation] from one other devotee.

Prabhupada: No, no. One thing, example, that dead body. Now, when the spirit is gone, now can you take care of the dead body?

Dr. Patel: It rots.

Prabhupada: So long the spirit is there, it is all right. And as soon as the spirit is gone, it is simply lump of matter.

Indian man (6): No, if you misuse it...

[Indians talking at once]

Dr. Patel: You have to take care of the body.

Indian man (6): If you misuse your body then you are away from the God.

Prabhupada: No, no. First... This is practical. You see the importance of the body is so long..., as long as there is the spirit. So if you take spiritual care, the bodily care is automatically. Just like we are. Are we not taking bodily care? But our main business is spiritual care.

Dr. Patel: But people are starving for twenty-four, I mean forty-eight days. You cannot starve for two days because you have got weakness of the mind. Mind and soul should be one, and the body... [break]

Prabhupada: ...transcend the bodily and mental platform. Then you come to the spiritual platform.

You have to come to that platform.

Dr. Patel: Evam buddheḥ param buddhva... [Bg 3.43]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: [Transl. Understood Saheb, Thakur Saheb?] What he says is right. No, but because we are, we are apahrta-jnana, [Bg 7.15] so we don't understand it quickly. [break]

Prabhupada: ...Kali-yuga, always chant Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama..., and everything will be clear. Last night Brahmananda was saying that "We are sticking to you because we know we have got something from you." Otherwise, they are all rich man's sons. They are aristocratic family and industry. Why? I am not bribing them. Now this Mr. Ford has come to me. I have not bribed. He is not to be bribed. [break]

Dr. Patel: Up to three o'clock we are taking rest.

Prabhupada: No.

Dr. Patel: No.

Prabhupada: Up to four.

Dr. Patel: Four. If I come at four-thirty, you are there.

Prabhupada: No. At that time, I shall not be able to... You can come at five. Because after waking up, I prepare. Then at five I begin. Let us meet. And Krsna says, tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg 2.13]. So one has to become dhira. If one remains adhira, then he'll never be able to understand the distinction between body and soul.

Dr. Patel: Dhi means buddhi. [Transl. Intelligent.]

Prabhupada: Dhira means sober. Sober, yes. Just like high-court judge. He judges everything very...

[break] ...then he gives his judgment.

Indian man (7): Attention.

Prabhupada: Full attention. And attention means with good intelligence, [dog barking and growling] not foolishly. [Transl. Now look at them? You make them understand] that "You are not body. Why you are fighting?" Will they hear? Hey? [Transl. If they don't understand then they remain dogs. They cannot be controlled by good words.] That "My dear dog, you are not this body. Why you are fighting?" He will never understand. Similarly, if a man does not understand, he is no better than the dog.

Dr. Patel: Suni caiva sva-pakesu panḍitaḥ sama-darsinaḥ [Bg 5.18].

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we like everyone. We do not reject anyone. Dog cannot understand the philosophy; therefore we call him and give some prasadam. [laughter]

Dr. Patel: So if we take also prasadam, don't... [laughing]

Prabhupada: Therefore prasada distribution is one of our program.

Dr. Patel: For?

Prabhupada: For everyone.

Dr. Patel: [laughs] Sama-darsinaḥ.

Prabhupada: Yes. We are not neglectful. "Because he is dog, therefore he should be neglected." No. He should be given.

Indian man (8): After all, he is God's creation.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is sama-darsinaḥ [Bg 5.18]. Sama-darsinaḥ means that every living being is part and parcel of God. So he is suffering for want of God consciousness, so let us teach something as far as possible. This is our mission.

Dr. Patel: That is your mission?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: [Indistinct]

Prabhupada: No. [break] ...is used ...dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg 2.13]. Therefore the human being's first business is how to become dhira.

Dr. Patel: Dhira does not exactly mean "sober," but something more than sober.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is only one part of it.

Dr. Patel: So many Sanskrit words cannot have translation into English.

Prabhupada: Dhira means one who is not disturbed by this bodily concept of life. He is dhira because he knows that "I am not this body," even there is some trouble in respect of body. So Krsna advised that titiksasva bharata.

Dr. Patel: Titiksasva.

Prabhupada: "Even there is some disturbance, tolerate it. Don't be disturbed."

Dr. Patel: Matra-sparsas tu kaunteya, sukha-duḥkha-daḥ [Bg 2.14].

Prabhupada: Yes. So long the body is there, in connection with the skin disease we shall be suffering in so many ways. Just like there was accident. So it does not mean that because there was accident that...

Dr. Patel: But somehow or other, you have very much improved after accident, your health.

Prabhupada: No, I was eating nicely in Africa. The climate is nice.

Indian man (6): Was it?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Dr. Patel: South Africa is just like..., just like, as cold as Europe.

Prabhupada: Not very cold, but it is cold. Durban. Durban.

Dr. Patel: Durban, there is a huge population of Indians, and all Gujaratis.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Somehow or other, Bengalis and Gujaratis are akin. Why they have one living in west and other in east? What must be the cause of oneness, even in thought and action, in every way?

Prabhupada: Oneness means Krsna consciousness. [aside:] [Transl. I am all right.] Hare Krsna. Jaya. [aside:] Hare Krsna. Jaya.

Dr. Patel: In temperament also. [laughs]

Prabhupada: That is also external. Real unity is on Krsna consciousness. The Vedanta begins, athato brahma-jijnasa: "Just inquire about the soul." And where is that education? This human life, they are opening so many colleges, schools, institutions. Where is the instruction about the soul? So go-kharaḥ. [Transl. They remain asses only. That's all. Therefore] in spite of so much improvement, they are behaving just like cats and dogs. In South Africa the Indians are given the far away from the city.

Dr. Patel: They live at the last. They have been very badly segregated. They can't have any business, I hear.

Prabhupada: They are put into difficulty.

Dr. Patel: They are following Hitler's method of superiority of... They don't understand that Indians are as superior as they are, rather more, ethically.

Prabhupada: Everyone thinks that he is superior than everyone.

Dr. Patel: No, no. The Aryan race is...

Prabhupada: That is the disease, material disease. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has... Trnad api sunicena [Sri Siksastaka 3] "You just become..." [break] [end]