Room Conversation – November 11, 1971, Delhi

Tejiyas: So this is Sri Madan. He is architect.

Prabhupada: Madan Mohan.

Tejiyas: And this is Sri...

Prabhupada: Jagat Purusa. [break]

Guest (1): [Transl. How are you Maharaja?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. All right.] Patram puspam phalam toyam [Bg 9.26]. Then?

Tejiyas: This is Sri Narayana Svarupa Sharma. He was professor in England and then Member of Parliament here.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Tejiyas: And he has been helpful. Very nice.

Prabhupada: Pranair arthair dhiya vaca sreya-acaranam sada [SB 10.22.35]. [Transl. Whatever possessions one has got he should utilise them for the service of the Supreme Lord.] Just see our condition. You have read this morning's paper?

Guest (1): Yes.

Prabhupada: Swami Akhandananda is speaking kalpana [imagination]. Such a big sannyasi, he says that Krsna is kalpana [imagination].

Guest (1): Who was that?

Prabhupada: Swami Akhandananda, he was...

Guest (1): Swami Akhandananda, I see. But yes, in Birla temple.

Prabhupada: Yes. Birla temple is speaking that Krsna is kalpana [imagination].

Guest (2): Kalpana [imagination].

Prabhupada: Yes, kalpana [imagination]. Mayavadi theory is brahma nirakara, [Transl. So you can imagine any form of Him. Everything is all right.] You can imagine that God is so insignificant that you can imagine His form. This dangerous theory is going on in India. God is so insignificant that you can imagine, at your whims, whatever you like. Ramakrishna Mission is also preaching this, and our this big, big sannyasi, they also preaching this. God is a subject matter for..., of my imagination, He is so insignificant. You have seen the paper?

Guest (1): No. I haven't read this particular statement.

Prabhupada: Oh. Rohininandan, can you get that paper, Hindustan?

Guest: Quite surprising. He's quite a learned scholar.

Prabhupada: The learned scholar, they have been described in the Bhagavad-gita, mayaya apahrta-jnana asuri-bhavam asritaḥ [Bg 7.15]. Because they have taken this view that God is impersonal, He has no form, this is asuri. Then mayaya apahrta-jnana. Therefore, however learned they may be, maya takes away their knowledge.

Mayaya apahrta-jnana asuri-bhavam asr... That is described in the Bhagavad-gita. [Transl. Is God a subject matter of your imagination?] The Absolute Truth, that is subjected to be imagined by me. I am a tiny soul. And if a learned sannyasi says like that, how many thousands of people will believe in that, will be wrongly impressed? This paper will be read by thousands and millions. [Transl. Look, Akhandananda said this! People are not so crooked. They are not stuffed with much] hodgepodge.

Guest: Another one, Bala-yogi, has made a statement that "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu."

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: "I will call myself anybody but not Hindu."

Prabhupada: I will call...?

Guest (2): "Anybody but not Hindu."

Guest: He is not Hindu, he says.

Guest (2): Bal-yogeswara, some other saint. He said, "I am not a Hindu."

Guest: He was giving this discourse at Rama-lila ground. Nobody is now, I think.

Prabhupada: [referring to paper] [Transl. Read it. Let us hear. Yes, in Hindi.] What is the heading?

Guest: This one? [Transl. "The seeker of absolute truth requires to take to the process of imagination."]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Require to imagine.]

Guest: [Transl. Require.]

Prabhupada: "To imagine." By imagination one is going to tattva-vastu, Absolute Truth. Just see the theory. By imagination you have to reach the tattva-vastu. Tattva means Absolute Truth, reality, and that is subjected to man's imagination.

Guest: You see, Swamiji, this is the headline, which is not a Akhandananda's statement. Only the reporter has put up the headline.

Prabhupada: But people will read as Akhandananda's...

Guest: Yes, sir.

Guest (2): Why don't you read the whole matter? The sum and substance is same. Sri Prabhupada says, he says, and he says it very wrongly, then why should I read? You read the whole matter. The summary of the whole matter is the same. This is very wrong.

Prabhupada: Vasudeva, you just..., you can read the whole thing. It is imagination. Tattva... [break] ...you imagine yourself that "My lover will be like this, like this, like that.'' In this way he will reach to the reality. Do you think it is very nice argument?

Guest: [Transl. I think he himself is confused.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Svami Akhandanandaji's discourse on Srimad-Bhagavatam. And he is reading Srimad-Bhagavatam!]

Guest: [Transl. He was speaking on Srimad-Bhagavatam in Birla mandir. Today after hearing his lecture I must question him? How far can one reach by imagination? Yesterday Dayananda Maharaja das invited me to attend it and ask if you have any question. I said, I am busy here now till 12th. But I will surely come in between.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. In this age there is an increase of Kamsas in the form of sinful activities, corruption and torture. The number of Kamsas have increase manyfold. But even now the Supreme Lord is waiting for some Vasudevas and Devakis to incarnate Himself.] [Prabhupada reads article] [Transl. "Today Svami Akhandanandaji spoke Srimad-Bhagavatam on the second day in Lakshmi Narayana mandir, Birla mandir." That means if some Vasudeva is available…]

Guest: [Transl. Devaki and Vasudeva are available one more God will come.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Han. If one Devaki and Vasudeva were available I would have imagined God and God would incarnate. Just see!]

Guest: He is not a bhakta.

Prabhupada: Huh? Huh?

Guest: He is not a bhakta, he is a scholar.

Prabhupada: What is the nonsense scholar [laughter] if he does not know the truth? [Transl. Therefore Bhagavad-gita condemns them as] mayaya apahrta-jnana [Bg 7.15]. Scholar maybe superficially, but real knowledge is taken away by maya. Caitanya Mahaprabhu [Transl. therefore warned] mayavadi-bhasya sunile haya sarva-nasa [Cc Madhya 6.169]. If people hear him, then for good he will be lost in bewilderedness. [Transl. Just like if one is bitten by a snake once he is finished.]

Guest: [Transl. Mayavada-snake.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. These Mayavadis declare that God has no form. This is the reason the whole world especially India has turned into atheist.]

Guest: [Transl. What is the cause of this?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. This is the cause that many fools are now posing as learned. That's a fact. They are actually fools. But they are in the position of a scholar and people accept them. This is the reason. They have created a position for themselves. When they speak, foolish people, generally people are foolish, and they become more foolish. This is the pathetic condition of India. The followers of Ramakrishna Mission preach that anything even stool, if you accept it as God it is God. This is how they speak. So it is very difficult to rectify this situation.]

Guest: [Transl. If God is found in the stool then why do people desire to attain God and all that? Why endeavour at all.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That's what. What is sin? Sin is nothing. In his Chicago speech Vivekananda said.] Why do you think that you are sinner? [Transl. So those who act sinfully they will think we are not sinners. We are God. We are Brahman. We can do anything we like. Who can stop them? There is no consideration of sin and piety, or of God. Everything is going on like that. [Laughs.] It says about us. "Shouldn't be afraid of fight against oppression."]

Guest: [Transl. Your discourse was very appropriate. Timely and in favour of everyone.]

Guest (2): [Transl. Yesterday your lecture was very nice. Everyone was praising.]

Our theory is not that. Krsna is fighting. He is inducing fight against irreligiosity.

Guest: [Transl. Yesterday's conclusion was that one must have faith first. They understood what the human beings should do? Because of faith they had to come here. Last evening, just by a single phone call they all gathered here. I said, for this thing there is no question of any invitation. Maharaja has arrived and he is sitting on his seat! You are aware that he has arrived in Delhi. So it is your duty now to approach him personally and inquire from him whatever you like hear. So that was last evening influence. Everyone came. I received many telephone calls and I told them to go to number two and sit down. As and when you get an opportunity you go before him and ask. Prabhu, one should not be idle in this type of service.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. The Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself says,] Mattaḥ parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg 7.7]: "There is no higher reality than Me.'' Are we imaginists? Krsna says that mattaḥ parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya: "There is nothing,'' I mean, "as higher reality than Me.'' And these people are taking Him as a mūrta-vigrahaḥ of kalpana [imagination]. [Transl. The form made out of imagination! And imagination is required! I don't know what you make out of his statement, but…]

Guest: [Transl. That's what. Kalpana has no value.]

Prabhupada: No. Why this word kalpana [imagination] is there? That is..., that is my point. Kalpana means something false imagination. Kalpana is not reality, and Krsna says that "There is no higher reality than Me.'' And He became the subject matter of my kalpana. [Transl. Just think about it.]

Guest: [Transl. God says, give up all religions and surrender unto Me.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. And that is kalpana [imagination.]

Guest: [Transl. One has to imagine. After that you become nil. Then what remains? These kinds of statements create a lot of confusion.]

Guest (2): [Transl. There is no personality like you in all over Delhi.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I don't know anything. I am engaged only in the service of God. You all bless me so that may I never become distracted from the path of my service. May this doesn't turn into kalpana!] [laughs] Let it become reality.

Guest: [Transl. If one is in doubt then he is nowhere.]

Prabhupada: Why this word should be used as kalpana [imagination]? I don't think the newspaper reporter can write in that way unless this word was actually spoken.

Guest: This is Times? Hindustan? No. Navabharata Times.

Guest (2): [Transl. Then they should write Navabharata Times.]

Guest: [Transl. Aksayaji should phone them.]

Guest (2): [Transl. Aksayaji should do that.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. You should ask him that God said there is no reality greater than Me. The supreme truth. Absolute truth. How can the absolute truth come under the jurisdiction of your imagination?]

Guest: [Transl. He gives imagination more importance.]

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: He says imagination is the supermost.

Prabhupada: [Transl. And if one can imagine a Vasudeva then Krsna will come again.]

Guest: [reads from Newspaper.] [Transl. he says, "All religious systems of the world are prevailing on the basis of imaginary God who creates the world."]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Look, first of all imagine God!]

Guest: [Transl. Imagine on God.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What do you mean by imagine on God?]

Guest: [continues reading] [Transl. "But Bhagavata-dharma says that God not only creates the world but also dwells in it." What are you talking? That's what you want. "You are nirguna: devoid of qualities and nirakara: formless and also beyond the reach of ordinary persons' senses. Therefore God is not so useful for ordinary persons."]

Prabhupada: [Transl. For example, if a person is useless he is chastised that he has no qualities. And what is the meaning of nirakara? He who has no hands, no legs, no eyes. One who has no legs what is he called, crippled?]

Guest: [Transl. Yes, crippled.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. This is their prayer to God! He has no hands! Nirakara. He has no eyes! He has no legs! This is understood. So this is their prayer to God. God is blind, God is lame, God is crippled. Indirectly doesn't it mean so? Bhagavan is sac-cid-ananda vigrahaḥ, sastra says. Bhagavan Himself says,] aham sarvasya prabhavaḥ [Bg 10.8], [Transl. All forms emanated from Me.] aham bija-pradaḥ pita. [Transl. If the father is beautiful then automatically beautiful children will be produced. If he is formless then wherefrom so many beautiful children have come? Do you have any such experience that from air beautiful children are coming out? Do you have any experience? I have a form means my father must also has a form. And his father also had a form. Suppose you haven't seen your great grandfathers, but how can you say they were formless? Answer? If you have a form then how your father, his father, his father will be formless? God says, I am the supreme father.]

sarva-yonisu kaunteya sambhavanti murtayaḥ [Bg 14.4]. Aham bija-pradaḥ pita.

[Transl. When Bhagavan is the supreme father…From our practical experience we see that my father, his father has form then how the supreme father will have no form? Sastra declares, vigraha. Vigraha means form. sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaḥ. Vigraha means form.]

[Transl. He who is the cause of all causes, He is formless! That is material conception, not spiritual understanding. The problem is…Just like this my shirt or coat, it has got one hand or two hands. Because I do have hands therefore it has got hands. The cloth was cut and stitched with two hands.] They have been cut with two hands because I have got really two hands. [Bhagavad-gita tells us that this body,] vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg 2.22]. [Transl. As one gives up his old cloth and puts on a new cloth, similarly this dress-shirt or coat have been compared with this body. If the body has a form, as I said about coat or shirt, then how the owner of the body is formless? Do you understand it? The coat has hands because I have hands. So this material body is, according to the sastra, like coat or shirt. So my origin, I am spirit soul, if I have no form then how this body of mine has form? Just like this table, it has been covered by a cloth and it looks like table. Because the table has got shape therefore the cloth also got the shape of the table. Similarly, we, the living entities, we have got form, therefore our bodies which are compared to shirt or coat have forms. So how can the living entities be formless? And the Supreme Lord says,] mamaivamso jiva-bhūta [Bg 15.7]. [Transl. Bhagavan's part and parcel…Just like my part and parcel is my son. I am part and parcel of my father. Bhagavan says, mamaivamso. So how can Bhagavan be formless? And Bhagavan Himself declares] avajananti mam mūḍhah, manusim tanum asritam [Bg 9.11].

[Transl. Just because I have descended in a human form therefore people accept Me as an ordinary human being. Param bhavam ajananto. They do not know My supreme dominion over all that be. Things are to be considered. We, the vaisnavas, we worship the Lord's Deity form. Is that all imagination? The devotees spend huge amount of money to build such big temples. Is it all for imagination?]

Guest: [Transl. He who gave such a beautiful shape to this universe, He has no form?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. He has no form?]

Guest: [Transl. That means the creator must be very beautiful. That's why He created such a beautiful shape.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Certainly. Just like an artist he knows. The point is if people are misled in this way then how they will be benefitted?] yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg 3.21] [Transl. Whatever a great person does common men follow. Therefore great persons should not speak such things. But what can be done?]

Guest: [Transl. Now I believe you will be staying in India for a while?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. The program is like that.] I shall return to USA by the month of March. So, December, January, February. [Transl. November is on now.]

Guest: [Transl. Let there be an asrama here. Gurudasji was telling like this. Some plots of land have also been seen. We checked and roamed around.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. See, if available an asrama can be built here.]

Guest: [Transl. This is our heartiest desire.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. You all together…]

Guest: [Transl. Maharajaji, No problem. So much land is available. All facilities are available here. We all are busy finding a suitable place.]

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. [Transl. The main theme of our preaching is Bhagavad-gita As It Is. We don't need to imagine anything. [laughs.] We have facts.] We are dealing with facts. [Transl. We don't have to imagine and make a program.] The..., already everything is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. We have to simply explain them. That's all. Explanation [Transl. is also not necessary. It is so simple in itself. But they are trying to cover it. It is self illuminated. Just like the sun is self illuminated. And in order to cover the illumination you lock your doors.] You cannot stop sunshine. That is not possible. But you close yourself in the dark room. It is not possible to cover Krsna. That is not possible. But by jugglery of words you close yourself in a dark room. [Transl. This is going on. I am a demon. I want to kill Krsna. That is Kamsa's philosophy. He doesn't know he himself is Kamsa. What was Kamsa's idea? As soon as Krsna will take birth let me know and I will kill Him at once. And he says this is imagination. He kills Him even before His birth! He himself is Kamsa! You ask him that you say the number of Kamsas has increased nowadays so are you included in it?] [laughs]

Guest: [Transl. I must ask him today. At least tell me why did you talk of kalpana? The word kalpana is somewhat new.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Can we imagine that you too are a Kamsa? Is God an object of imagination?]

Guest: [Transl. Finally he refutes his own argument and ends up in Krsna. He comes down to Krsna.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That means simply jugglery of words. He could have said in the beginning that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead-Svayam Bhagavan Krsna. What was the difficulty to admit this? Why you juggle words like kalpana and so on…]

Guest: [Transl. Svamiji did say that the necterean topics of Krsna are the life giving remedy for the miseries of the worldly people.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Is remedy imaginary?]

Guest: [Transl. How imagination can give you relief? Until and unless your heart is filled with mellows of love and devotion to Krsna…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Oh, thank you. [aside:] Wherefrom did you pick that up? All right, thank you very much. Come on. [Transl. Take. All of you eat a banana each. No, no. we have. Take this also. Mataji brought so many things. Take.] [laughs] [aside:] You can open this and distribute it. [Transl. You also come in. Oh, you didn't get it? Come. Prasada. Prapti-matrena bhoktavyam [Cc Madhya 6.225] As soon as you get prasada you should honour it.]

Guest: [Transl. By spreading Krsna Consciousness you have created a revolution in the whole world.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. They say it is a revolutionary movement.]

Guest: [Transl. It's time for Maharaja's meal. Ok Maharaja, I take your leave.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Take them all. Honour it. Hare Krsna. Jaya. Come again in the evening.] [break] [Transl. Take Prasada all of you. Yes?]

Guest [new]: For the worship of…Any worship, we first worship Lord Ganesa, in...

Prabhupada: That is not necessary. That is not necessary. If we worship other demigods to fulfill our some particular desire. [Transl. We worship Ganesaji so that our work gets done. We worship Laksmiji to get some wealth. Similarly, we worship Sivaji to get a lot of wealth, happiness, comfortable living and a good wife.] There are different demigods they worship, but one who knows that "If I approach Krsna, the Supreme Lord, then everything is obtained..."

Guest: You see, a true devotee of Krsna, the first thing he need not go after the demigods?

Prabhupada: No, no, no.

Guest: Secondly...

Prabhupada: There is no need.

Guest: But if he goes after demigods...

Prabhupada: If he wants some material profit. [Transl. Those who want wealth, beautiful wife, good food, sukhaisvarya prayaccha: give me happiness, opulence, nice children etc, for them the different demigods worship is recommended. And one who only wants to serve Bhagavan, he has no material necessities.]

Guest: [Transl. To want to serve Bhagavan is also a necessity.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. To want Bhagavan you need Bhagavan only.]

Guest: [Transl. In Ramayana Lord Rama has said, that sahkara bhajan bina nara, bhagati na pavahi mori …One cannot attain bhakti without worshiping Sahkara.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That is Tulasidasa's statement. But sastra does not say so. Sastra, like Bhagavad-gita said,] kamais tais tair hrta-jnanaḥ prapadyante anya-devataḥ [Bg 7.20]. [Transl. Those whose intelligence has been lost due to lusty desire they worship the demigods.]

Guest: [Transl. Come and sit.]

Prabhupada: Tulsidasa is different; therefore we don't take Tulsidasa as authority.

Guest: No? Ahha. Then, sir, there is Rama and there is Krsna. You have Hare Rama, Hare Krsna. So Rama is Hari. Krsna is considered Hari. So when you...

Prabhupada: No, Rama... Bhagavan has different forms: ramadi-mūrtisu kala-niyamena tisthan [Bs 5.39]. [Transl. Bhagavan has got many expansions.]

Guest: That's true. So that explains...

Prabhupada: Visnu-tattva. That is called visnu-tattva.

Guest: In that expansion can't we take Durga and Siva, even for...

Prabhupada: Yes. That is sakti-tattva. We have to take expansion according to the tattva. Substance and categories; in which category. The substance is Visnu, and all other tattvas are categories. So devatas, they are sakti-tattva, sakti category, the same category as you are. The same example: just like here a government officer, he is also Indian gentleman, you are also Indian gentleman, but he has got his power on account of his high qualities. Similarly, you can become also devata. You can become Indra, Candra, Sūrya.

So qualitatively the ant, you or a learned brahmana, they are all the same category.

A panḍita knows that they are on the same jiva-tattva categories. Visnu-tattva, jiva-tattva, sakti-tattva, there are many tattvas. Brahman-tattva, Paramatma-tattva and Bhagavat-tattva, they are the substance, and all other tattvas, they are jiva-tattva, sakti-tattva, like that. So Bhagavan is not jiva-tattva, but others, they are jiva-tattva. Demigods, they are jiva-tattva. Brahma is also jiva-tattva. Devi is sakti-tattva. Jiva is also sakti-tattva. In one sense jiva-tattva is higher than this material sakti-tattva. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita:

[Transl. These conclusions you can have only from the sastra.]

Guest: For meditation, which form should we...

Prabhupada: Meditation Visnu, Visnu form.

Guest: [Transl. The four armed Hari.]

Prabhupada: Yes. Visnu form is the objective. Tad visnoḥ paramam padam sada pasyanti sūrayo. [Transl. Meditating on the lotus feet of Visnu-padma. This is Rg Veda mantra.] Om tad visnoḥ paramam padam sada pasyanti sūrayaḥ diviva caksur atatam, like that.

Guest: But in the Eleventh Chapter of the Gita...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: ...when Lord has shown His virat-darsana: universal form.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: ...He has shown Brahma, Visnu, Mahesa, etc. They are all in Him.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Guest: Subordinate to Him.

Prabhupada: You are also in Him.

Guest: They are subordinate to Him.

Prabhupada: Yes. Subordinate. Yes.

Guest: Therefore to meditate on Krsna, Krsna holding a flute.

Prabhupada: Yes. To meditate upon Krsna is the highest yogic principle.

Guest: So that's what I asked...

Prabhupada: Generally yogis, they observe visnu-tattva, generally.

Guest: For what...

Prabhupada: But higher yogis, bhakta-yogis, they see only Krsna.

Guest: Krsna.

Prabhupada: Therefore Krsna says, yoginam api sarvesam mad-gatenantaratmana [Bg 6.47].

Guest: What is fit for we people? Which form should we meditate upon?

Prabhupada: For Kali-yuga, this is Krsna. Kirtanad eva krsnasya [SB 12.3.51]. Kali-yuga, kirtanad eva krsnasya.

Guest: I asked which form, that is the form...

Prabhupada: Krsna form.

Guest: Krsna form holding murali: flute in His hand?

Prabhupada: Yes. Dvibhuja: two armed-muralidhara.

Guest: But when you chant "Rama,'' the other...

Prabhupada: Yes. Rama is another... There is no difference between Rama and Krsna. If you like...

Guest: The form comes different in the meditation.

Prabhupada: Yes, but they are the same. Ramadi mūrti.

Guest: For purpose of practice I am asking, when you chant Rama, should you have the form of Rama before you?

Prabhupada: That, that depends on your affection. Bhagavan has got many forms. If you want, if you love Rama, that's all right. If you love Krsna, that is all right. If you love Narayana, that is also all right. But Bhagavan mūrti, ramadi-mūrtisu.

Guest: Rama with Radhe? Or only with a bow? [laughter]

Prabhupada: That is incongruency. Rama with Sita.

Guest: Along with...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: Krsna, Rama with Radhe?

Prabhupada: Krsna, Krsna with Radharani.

Guest: Then what is Radha category?

Prabhupada: The same sakti. Cit-sakti. [Transl. Bhagavan's pleasure potency.] Sakti, sakti-tattva. Sva- saktimana: Omniscient. Bhagavan is saktimana, and that sakti is Radharani or Sita or Laksmi. Durga is also sakti, another feature of Radharani.

Guest: Sakti in original is Radha?

Prabhupada: Yes. Parasya saktih..., parasya saktir vividhaiva srūyate [Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.8]. [Transl. God's potencies have many names.] Originally cit-sakti. Cit-sakti. That cit-sakti is expanding. Just like we are..., ramadi mūrtisu kala-niyamena tisthan [Bs 5.39]. Kala means part and parcel. So we are also part and parcel, but we are very small part and parcel.

But ramadi mūrti, they are bigger part and parcel. Just like if you throw one brick on the floor, so there will be so many small particles, big particles, this particle, that par... They are all part and parcel of the brick, but one part, very small atomic part, and one big part, this part, this part, then this part, then this part. So all, Krsna is the origin, and everyone is part and parcel. Some of them are bigger and some of them are smaller. So visnu-tattva is almost like Krsna.

Guest: Like Krsna.

Prabhupada: Others, they are very small. So according to the size, or according to the power...

Guest: Power.

Prabhupada: ...the part and parcel exercises his position. Some of them are visnu-tattva, some of them are jiva-tattva, some of them are sakti-tattva and some of them para-tattva. Like that.

Guest: Para-tattva?

Prabhupada: Para-tattva.

Guest: Means?

Prabhupada: Para-tattva is Bhagavan. Para-tattva means Krsna, Rama, Narayana, Visnu. These are para-tattvas. [Transl. Bhagavan's avatara-Rama, Nrsimha, Varaha, Kūrma, Vamana. Ten kinds of incarnations. There are many avataras. All of Them are para-tattvas.] Or sakti-tattva, material energy, apara-tattva, matter. Similarly cit-tattva, spiritual world. The living entities, although they are in the material world, they belong to the spiritual world. Therefore Krsna says, apareyam. This material energy is inferior. Itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param [Bg 7.5] Beyond this there is another, superior energy, jiva-bhūta. That is jiva.

Devotee: Excuse me, Srila Prabhupada, Ksirodakasayi-Visnu...

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Devotee: Ksirodakasayi-Visnu...

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: Ksirodakasayi-Visnu is in which category?

Prabhupada: He is para-tattva.

Devotee: And, uh...

Prabhupada: Any visnu-tattva is para-tattva.

Guest: What is definition of [Transl. mind, heart, intelligence and false ego?]

Prabhupada: Huh?

Guest: Some people say that jiva is a, you see, surrounded by [Transl. Mind, heart, intelligence and false ego.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. He is being bewildered by mind and intelligence that I am a product of matter. That is called false. False ego.] He is misidentifying with this matter. He is not matter. So this ahahkara, this identification, has to be purified by understanding himself that "I am Brahman. I am not matter.'' That is purification. And as soon as he is purified, brahma-bhūta.... Now jiva-bhūta, but when he becomes brahma-bhūta, then he becomes jolly. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannatma [Bg 18.54]. That is the symptom. Not that "I am realized Brahman.'' But the symptom will be there. If he says, "I am very rich man,'' then I'll see what is the symptom, whether you have got a nice car, you have got many servants, and "Oh, yes, you are rich man.'' And if you are walking on the street with a slipper, how can I accept you?

Guest: If I am that bad, balancing will not work. [laughter]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Everything has its symptom.] [laughter] [Transl. By symptom you can recognise. If someone says, I am God, We wouldn't accept. Only asses will accept. We will challenge him that if you are God then lift a hill! Build a bridge over the sea! Then we will accept you. We won't accept so cheaply. But ass-like people accept, oh, here is an incarnation of God. He is God. How have you become God? Show us some symptoms. At least display four arms. Nothing of that sort but has become God! And foolish people accept him as God.]

Guest: [Transl. Maharaja, what is Bhagavan's rasa-lila?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. First of all understand what is Bhagavan then understand rasa-lila. Don't try to understand everything in a single day. Bhagavan's rasa-lila is very confidential. Just like if you ask a young girl….]

Guest: We're just asking questions and questions. No problem. Endeavor to understand it. You excuse me. Then we have come to a saint to receive his vibrations.

Prabhupada: Bhagavan's rasa-lila is very confidential. It is not for ordinary men. [Transl. They will understand it upside down. You are asking and if I answer you will misunderstand it. So such questions are unnecessary. Therefore in the kanistha adhikara: neophyte stage one should not hear. That is why rasa-lila is described in tenth canto. Now you see, Akhandanandaji is reciting Srimad Bhagavatam and he is reciting from the tenth canto. Why? What's wrong with the other nine cantos? Why did you leave them aside? That is not proper. Srimad Bhagavatam has one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten cantos. One should graduate to tenth canto. In the school a student gradually makes progress. Does any student at once go to class ten? Isn't it foolishness? If a student is put into tenth class by skipping first class, second class, third class, and so on, skip the other classes, is it not foolishness? What will he understand? What will he understand? Therefore one should go up step by step. But ordinary people, they think] Radha-Krsna rasa-lila, Krsna with young girls dancing, embracing, kissing, just like ordinary novel and nataka [drama]. They like it. So these professional Bhagavata readers, they take advantage of the people's inferior quality, of their weakness, and make money. That's all.

Guest: That's why I wanted to know...

Prabhupada: Yes. They make money.

Guest: ...the real significance, that spiritual...

Prabhupada: The significance..., there is no significance. These professional Bhagavata readers, they make money from the public because public wants to hear all these things. Just like we read a novel-a woman is embracing a man, or kissing or having sex. They like it. Therefore they go the Bhagavata Tenth Canto immediately. Their Bhagavata reading is professional, not understanding of Krsna.

If you want to understand Krsna, then go step by step, one by one. First of all read Bhagavad-gita, try to understand, and you surrender to Krsna as Krsna says, then you enter. Just like after passing entrance examination you enter into the college. Similarly, when you are qualified in accepting Krsna as all in all, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg 18.66], then you enter into Bhagavata.

Bhagavata is the graduate study, not ordinary study. But these professionals, they take advantage of the weakness of the people, and they make profession and earn some money. That's all. When we speak of Bhagavata we speak from First Canto, Second Canto, Third Canto..., the nine cantos to understand Krsna. Just like in First Canto the beginning, janmady asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], om namo bhagavate vasudevaya, janmady asya yataḥ. This is Vedanta-sūtra verse. Param satyam dhimahi. [Transl. So what is the absolute truth? From Whom this material world comes into existence and remains? Gradually one should understand this. Only the you will achieve perfect knowledge of Krsna.] Then you'll understand what is krsna-lila. [end]