Morning Darśana with Ramkrishna Bajaj and friends – January 9, 1977, Bombay

You must breathe so many million times. Bas, finished

Giriraja: This is Mr. Sharma, the head technician at the airport, radar.

Prabhupada: Oh. When I went to your MIT, I challenged that "Where is that technological department where a dead man can be brought into life?" It was interesting speech. The students gathered. This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita as machine. Do you know that? This body is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita as machine. Yantrarūḍhani mayaya.

Just like you make a tour by driving a motorcar, similarly, the jivatma is touring all over the universe, riding on this machine. This is machine. So...

Aiye aiye. Hare Krsna. [guest enters] Aiye.

Indian man (1): Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Please come.]

Indian man (1): [Transl. This is Mahadevia sir. He is our life member. He is my good friend.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Sit down. Sit down.]

Indian man (2): Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: We have arranged for your prasada. Yantrarūḍhani mayaya. This is machine. This body is machine made by the material energy, as all other machine are made by the ksitir-ap-teja marut-vyoma-earth, water, air, fire. These are the ingredients, any machine. Suppose it is made of iron. So iron is another form of earth. So as all other machines are made with these material elements, similarly, this body is also made with the material elements, and it is yantra. It is particularly mentioned. But this yantra is not ordinary yantra. You cannot make it. But it is yantra. It is made by somebody, and the ingredients are the material elements. So where is that technology? It is made of matter, and it is made by somebody as other machines are made with the material...

[break] ...and made by somebody. So where is that advancement of technology? A motorcar, when stops, a technology department can repair it and again it runs. So where is that advancement of technology that when this machine stops, you run on, again repair it? This was my challenge in your institution. Can you answer this? You have got so many advancement-the nuclear energy and everything. But why you cannot give life to the machine stopped? Why?

Mr. Sharma: There's no soul in it.

Prabhupada: That is the fact, we know. We know that is a fact, that... My point is that the modern age, they are very much proud of advanced technology. So where is that knowledge? And why people do not tax their brains to get this knowledge? This is very important subject matter. But where is that knowledge? And why they do not try to do it? We get information from the Supreme Personality of Godhead that this jiva, the driver... Not driver; the passenger. We are passengers, and driver is God, and machine made by material energy, maya... Yantrarūḍhani mayaya. The similarity is there. Just like motorcar is manufactured by somebody and the passenger is there and the driver is there, similarly, this is a machine made by maya. I am the passenger, and God is driver. Īsvaraḥ sarva-bhūtanam hrd-dese 'rjuna tisthati bhramayan [Bg 18.61].

Bhramayan, bhramayan, the driver, the passenger or the owner, he is asking, "Mr. Driver, you go this way." So He's driving. Just like the same-Arjuna is asking Krsna, senayor ubhayor madhye ratham sthapaya me 'cyuta [Bg 1.21]: "Just between these two parties of soldiers, please keep my chariot." The same thing. The chariot driver, He is the Supersoul. In this body there are two souls. Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata [Bg 13.3].

That he's also ksetrajna. Ksetra is this body, and ksetrajna, one knows this body... Just like I know it is my finger. I never say "I finger." It is my finger. So similarly, the driver also can say, "It is my car," and the proprietor also can say. So two persons-one driver and one passenger, or the proprietor. And the body is machine. The subjects are there. Why you do not try to understand the subject matter? Then what is your advancement? That is my challenge. Why you are so much proud of your advancement of knowledge? What is this knowledge? Tell me. You are young man. I am giving you the challenge. Either you admit that you are not advanced or make advancement. Why you set aside this difficult subject matter and become proud by making a small machine that you are advancing? Where is your advancement? Hmm? [Transl. Tell me, Mr. Bajajji. You also have got experience in technology.] He is Mr. Bajaj, the proprietor of the Bajaj Electricity.

Mr. Bajaj: We know each other.

Indian man (2): Maharaja, in the context of the universe, the technological and scientific advancement is very, very insignificant. But as far as human beings are concerned, they feel that they have achieved great deal.

Prabhupada: What? You cannot give life.

Indian man (2): Because there is a change from the past. So they feel that there is a difference. But that is at a very low level...

Prabhupada: That is my point, that you are becoming so much proud of your technological, but what you have done?

Indian man (2): It is very insignificant.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is my point. Why you become falsely proud that you have done so advancement that you don't care for God, don't care for the original manufacturer? That is your fault.

Indian man (2): The other day there was a doctor who had come from America for transplantation of kidney, and he had given a lecture in the Rotary Club. I was there. Now they give so much importance to the person who is able to transplant kidney from one body to the other, but how about the whole human being or the universe which has been created by God? Now, this is just a very, very insignificant thing which is already there which is just transplanted. But they feel so happy and proud. What you are… exactly the same point.

Prabhupada: That is my point: falsely proud.

Indian man (3): And Maharajaji, are they able to increase the life by a single moment? When they say nothing is in our hands.

Prabhupada: They cannot.

Indian man (3): They say they have achieved so much. Are they able to increase it by even a single moment?

Prabhupada: No. This breathing is given there, that "You must breathe so many million times. Bas, finished." Just like you wind the watch. It will run or go round so many times. As soon as the finish, then stop.

Indian man (2): Unwound, it is finished.

Prabhupada: The energy is limited. So by the yogic process they increase because they stop breathing. Breathing is limited. Just like you have got bank balance, two hundred thousand. If you don't spend, then it remains.

Indian man (3): But you got to breathe. You can't stop breathing.

Prabhupada: No, no, by yogic process, you can stop breathing.

Indian lady: No, by yogic process.

Indian man (3): Stop breathing or lengthen it?

Prabhupada: Stop breathing means you don't spend. You have got a limited breathing period. By yogic process, you stop breathing, but you remain. That is mystic yoga. So similarly, you can simply increase your life by not using the breathing process. That is pranayama. That is pranayama. So... But you cannot exceed the limit. That is not possible.

Indian man (3): [Transl. Maharajaji, the soul is pure, but why does it become contaminated?]

Prabhupada: It's possible. Just like today you are healthy, tomorrow you can have fever. That's your fault.] You don't keep hygienic life. [Transl. Why should you get fever tomorrow? Answer? Now you are healthy. But tomorrow you may have 105 degree temperature. Why does it happen? Answer?] You infect. That is your fault. [Transl. It is all right that the soul is pure.] To live ordinarily healthy life, that is... But if you transgress the hygienic principle, if you transgress the law of nature, you must suffer. Similarly, we are suffering in this material world-the covering is there-because we wanted to transgress the laws of God. Krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha kare [Prema-vivarta, 6.2]

When we forget our relationship with Krsna, that "Krsna is the original master, and I am the servant," as soon as you forget this relationship, this is contamination. Immediately. Everyone is trying to become another Krsna. This is struggle. Here in this material world you'll find everyone is trying to become very, very big-big leader, big politician, big businessman-big, big, big. But he is not big. That is the disease. He is not big, and he's trying to become big.

Indian man (3): This Khorana has developed one gene, and if it keeps growing, it will really play havoc with artificial development.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Giriraja: He says Dr. Khorana, he has made a gene.

Prabhupada: Gene?

Indian man (2): Living cell.

Prabhupada: What it is?

Giriraja: Yes, they take it that the hereditary qualities that a person inherits is determined by these genes. So now they're thinking that if they can control the genes, they can create their own type of human being according to their own...

Prabhupada: They can't. That, this nonsense speaking, is going on throughout the history, but they'll never be able. That is the fact. "We are trying," "We shall do in future"-these things are going on. But this is all stories. We don't believe in these nonsense things. They'll never be happy. That is not possible. Therefore I challenged your technology that "Where is that department? Do it!" First of all do it. Suppose if a man is in business. He may say that "I am trying to become a millionaire," but he cannot say that "I am millionaire." So the so-called scientist, "Yes, we are trying." You are trying, that's all right. But when you become, then you call scientist. There is no possibility, and because you are trying, I have to accept you as scientist? Recently in California University one professor came. He has gained the Nobel Prize, chemical evolution. They are trying to prove that life is generated by chemical evolution. So in that meeting I had my one student. He's Dr. Svarūpa Damodara. He's also big chemist. So he knows. He talks with me. He has got the idea. He has written one book, Scientific Basis of Krsna Consciousness. So he challenged that "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" The answer-"That I cannot say." Why he talks nonsense? He is theorizing that life is made of chemicals, but if you give the chemicals, why you cannot make life? When I was in South Africa... Where is that? Pretoria or something?

Giriraja: Yeah.

Prabhupada: There are many factories for chicken-killing, chicken incubator. So one of the students, worker there, I said, "Suppose this is a chicken factory. So take one egg and analyze the chemicals. There is some white substance, yellow substance; it is covered with some cell. You can do it, and put that in the incubator and get a chicken. Why don't you do that?" The rascal could not answer. "Don't talk of big, big life. Make a chicken."

Indian man (2): Just a small chicken.

Prabhupada: And this rascal cannot do that. And still, they'll talk big, big words. What do you think? Are they not rascals? These rascals, they are talking big, big words. First of all prove. Make one egg. Then talk of big, big brain. Make one egg. It is... Everyone can see, there is some white chemicals and some yellow chemicals, and it is covered, and it... You analyze and combine the chemical in the same way, and put it in the incubator and get one chicken. Why? You are technologist. Say why they cannot do it. And when they cannot do it, why they talk so big, big word, mislead others and mislead himself?

Mr. Bajaj: No, they feel so proud because...

Prabhupada: Foolish.

Mr. Bajaj: ...God's creation is so huge and vast and unfathomable. If they are able to unravel even a small part of it which was not known to human beings beforehand, so they are so proud. They don't say that they can do what God can do.

Prabhupada: No, it is known. It is known. Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva-bhūtaḥ [Bg 15.7]: "This life is My part and parcel." As soon as you study what is this life, you understand Krsna, quality, what is Krsna. So here is the hint, that Krsna said mamaivamso jiva-bhūtaḥ. So it is very small particle. That is also mentioned in the sastra:

The measurement of soul is given there in the sastra: one ten-thousandth part of the tip of the hair. So everything is there. It is not matter. And that is instructed in the Bhagavad-gita. Nayam sastra... [Bg 2.23] Acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam akledyo 'sosya eva ca [Bg 2.24]: "This spiritual spark cannot be cut into pieces." Acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam: "It cannot be burned into the fire." So...

[aside:] Come on.

So... But these rascals, they are seeing that "The body is burnt into ashes, so everything is finished." And Krsna says, adahyo 'yam: "It cannot be burned." So it remains. And that transmigrates. And that small particle you have no eyes to see. You say, therefore, "Why shall I believe transmigration?" How nature's law is working so subtle way? Prakrteḥ kriyamanani gunaiḥ karmani sarvasaḥ [Bg 3.27].

But the ahahkara-vimūḍhatma. I say rascal, not manufactured by me. Ahahkara vimūḍha. Vimūḍha means a great rascal. Mūḍha means rascal, ass; and vi, visesa, particularly, first-class ass, vimūḍha. Under false pride, he is thinking, "I am everything." Ahahkara-vimūḍhatma kartaham iti... [Bg 3.27]. "I can do anything by science, by this technology." That's all. Vimūḍhatma, great rascals. And these great rascals, they are leading the world. Therefore people are in darkness. They have become leaders, the so-called scientists and educationists and political leaders. All set of rascals, and they have become leaders. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. They are blind, and they are leading other blind men, so people are kept in darkness, and the opportunity of this human life is lost. By nature's way, by evolutionary process, we get this human form of life. Bahūnam janmanam ante [Bg 7.19].

Manusya, arthadam. Prahlada Maharaja says, durlabham manusam janma [SB 7.6.1]. Such life, important life, they are wasting like cats and dogs. So this is education; this is advancement. People are not given the opportunity to utilize this valuable life for understanding higher things. This is the plight of this civilization. They are growing like cats and dogs and dying like cats and dogs. And yatha dehantara-praptiḥ [Bg 2.13], and according to his work, he has to accept another body. That is nature's law. So in this life I am very big man, but by work, karmana daiva netrena [SB 3.31.1], by superior administration, I have to accept a body of dog. Then what is the value of your being great now? That technology is unknown, although it is stated there in the Bhagavad-gita. Everything is. Tatha dehantara-praptiḥ [Bg 2.13]. So Krsna never says that "You'll get such and such body." Dehantara: "You'll have to change the body." Now, suppose... There are 8,400,000 different types of bodies. Suppose next time I become a tree. Then just see horrible position. Here is a tree. I am within this room, sitting so comfortably, and the tree is standing there. I can get that life also, karmana, by my work. So this technology is unknown. And you are very much proud of advancement of knowledge. Boliye. Hmm? Am I right or wrong?

Mr. Bajaj: I don't know. I've never given very serious thought or consideration, and...

Prabhupada: Well, these are not the subject matter for serious thought? Do you think? You are under the grip of the laws of material nature. Do you admit or not?

Mr. Bajaj: Yes.

Prabhupada: Then why you should be under the grip of material nature? And if there is way, why should you not take? Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te [Bg 7.14].

Mr. Bajaj: [Transl. This body is since time immemorial.]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Mr. Bajaj: [Transl. This covering is from time immemorial.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. It is since time immemorial, but then why are you trying for improvement? That is the point. It has been since time immemorial and it is going to go on.] Tatha dehantara-praptiḥ [Bg 2.13]. So why you are trying to get better position? That should be the endeavor, that we may get better position.

Mr. Bajaj: Sat-sahga.

Prabhupada: Sat-sahga, satam prasahgat [SB 3.25.25]. The sat-sahga... But we know that word only, but if we don't take advantage, then what is meaning?

Indian man (4): Execution part is more important of the sat-sahga.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, sat-sahga means sat. Sat means which is true and not contaminated. That is sat. Om tat sat. So sat-sahga means to associate with spiritual knowledge. That is sat. [Bg 17.23]

Mr. Bajaj: And execution of the discourse.

Prabhupada: Well, sahga means execution. When you associate with medical association or sharebrokers' association, simply go there and sit down is not your business. You have to do something. You have to do something. Sat-sahga means that. Taj-josanad asv apavarga-vartmani [SB 3.25.25]. Sat-sahga means you have to take the knowledge and use it for practical purpose. That is sat-sahga. So our this Krsna consciousness movement is trying to give the sat-sahga, opening centers all over the world. If people take advantage of it they'll be benefited. But if he is ahahkara-vimūḍhatma, then it is very unfortunate. Mandaḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya hy upadrutaḥ .

This is Kali-yuga. The leaders also do not associate with sat, and they create their own imagination. Sat, om tat sat. Bhagavan is the supreme sat. So they do not care for Bhagavan, so there is no sat-sahga. Asat-sahga.

"I have given up sat-sahga, and I am trying to enjoy asat." Asato ma sad gamaya. That is Vedic injunction. "But I do not care for sat-sahga." Sat-sahga chaḍi. You have to take up something after giving up something. So our present position is sat-sahga chaḍi kainu asate vilasa: "I have given up sat-sahga, and I am trying to enjoy in asat. The result is I am entangled in karma bandha phahsa." According to karma, I am changing my body, and today I am human being and tomorrow I am a dog. And again from dog to another body, another body. This is going on.

Mr. Bajaj: Asato ma sama grad? You said, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Sad gamaya.

Mr. Bajaj: So the translation of it?

Prabhupada: Sad means "Try to come to the transcendental platform, sat, and don't remain in this asat." Asat means which is temporary.

Mr. Bajaj: And tamaso ma jyotir gamaya.

Prabhupada: Ah! Tamasa... "Don't remain in the darkness; come to the light." So this is the Vedic injunction. But we don't take advantage of the instruction. We think that "If I can make one table from ordinary wooden plank, that is advancement." This is technology. This nice polished table, it is a transformation of the crude wooden plank. So if a crude wooden plank is transferred into nice table, we see: "Oh, this is advancement." What is actual benefit? I can do without this table. But we have taken: "This is advancement. Transforming the form of an element into another, that is advancement." So asate vilasa. This is asat, this wood, either in crude form or in transformed form. So I am taking credit because a crude wood has been turned into a table. So that is my vilasa. So sat sahga chaḍi kainu asate vilasa. So I am now bound up. So I can become a very nice carpenter. Does it mean that I am self-realized? If you have learned the art of turning crude wood into a table, nice table, you may get the credit of becoming a nice carpenter; but that does not mean you are self-realized. They are taking credit of this turning crude wood into nice table, and they're thinking that "Our life is successful." This is going on. And the real technology, that "I am not this body; I have been put into this condition, and I am transmigrating from one body to another"-there is no such knowledge. For the temporary....

[break] ...temporary thing, flickering thing, like children. Children is very busy on the beach, making sand palaces. And he's very happy. So our position is like that. But we should be intelligent enough that "There is our real life, permanent life, not this temporary life"; that "This life is temporary. There is another life." Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20]. "This sarira is not..." Avinasi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam tatam [Bg 2.17].

So many things... The Bhagavad-gita is full of information, but we don't take advantage. We are so unfortunate. And it is our country. This is Indian culture. We have given up this thing. [Transl. I went to your that asrama. But where is the discussion of Bhagavad-gita?] Gandhiji, he was supposed to be a great student of Bhagavad-gita. And the such a big asrama, Sevagram. Where is Bhagavad-gita arcana? Boliye.

Indian man (5): Bhagavad-gita is a way of life...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (5): And that is what has to be followed by those who believe in it.

Prabhupada: Believe or not believe, that is another thing. But if you want to live worthy, then you have to study Bhagavad-gita. You believe... Just like somebody believes or not believes in dehantara, but nature's course will go on. Young man thinks, "I'll remain young. I shall not become old man." He may believe like that, but he has to become old man. That is nature's law. So there is no question of "believe" or "not believe." If you believe, then you are benefited; if you don't believe, you go to hell. It is not the question of belief. I was speaking in South Africa in a university. So one gentleman, Arya-samaji, said... When I was explaining tatha dehantara-praptiḥ, so he objected, that "Why you bring Hindu belief?" And, nonsense, it is Hindu belief? It is said that kaumaram yauvanam jara: one boy is becoming young man. Is this for Hindu? It is not for the Muslim? And he said "Hindu belief." Such a fool he is. He said, "It is Hindu belief." Krsna is giving this example, dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam [Bg 2.13].

Kaumaram yauvanam jara. So does it mean that Hindus only from kaumara become yuvaka, and from yuvaka to old man, and the Muslims, they do not? It is science! You believe or not believe. If you don't take the fact, then your life is missing. What is the question? Two plus two equal to four-it is not Hindu calculation, Muslim calculation or Christian calculation. You cannot say that "No, according to our Muslim calculation, two plus two equal to five." Two plus two is always four, either for a Hindu or Muslim or Christian. So whatever is spoken in the Bhagavad-gita, that is for understanding of the human society. Why do you take "It is Hindu belief. It is Indian belief"? It is science. That is our misfortune, that a science we are accepting as a kind of belief, faith. And that we are neglecting. That is our misfortune.

Indian man (4): We are the victims of the British Empire who ruled us.

Prabhupada: Huh? No. You are victims of yourself. Why...? British is not here now.

Indian man (4): We are indoctrined.

Prabhupada: British is not here now.

Indian man (4): No, they have indoctrined such a philosophy.

Mr. Bajaj: But what was there before British came? This is human weakness of our own.

Prabhupada: It is... You... You have been taught that Krsna is an ordinary person, maybe little more in knowledge. That you are taking like that. Kūpa-manḍūka-nyaya [Nyaya-sastra]. Kūpa-manḍuka, the toad in the well, he is informed, "Oh, I have seen one Atlantic Ocean." So he is thinking, "Atlantic Ocean may be... This well is three feet. It may be four feet. Or five. Come on-ten." These rascals are thinking like that-avajananti mam mūḍha [Bg 9.11]-that "Krsna may be more intelligent by one feet or two feet. Let us compromise-ten feet." This is going on. And Krsna says, mattaḥ parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7]:

"I am the Supreme." They won't believe. They'll manufacture their ideas. This is going on. Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. They won't believe that. And still they'll declare, "I am student of Bhagavad-gita." They won't believe a word of Krsna, and they'll say, "I am student of Bhagavad-gita." This is going on. This is our position. In India everyone says, "I have read Bhagavad-gita three hundred times," but he does not know even a word. So this should be stopped. If we want to advance actually, you take every word of Bhagavad-gita and try to apply in life. Then everyone will be happy. That is a fact. The instruction is there. There is no difficulty to understand. There is no question of interpretation. Simply take it as it is and try to apply it in life-you'll be happy. And your human life will be successful. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg 4.9]. Up to this human form of life, we have passed through so many evolutionary process, but if you understand Krsna, then, after leaving this body, no more material body.

And that is success. If you simply study Krsna, then your life is successful.

Indian man (5): Sahaja-bhava?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man (5): Sahaja-bhava?

Prabhupada: Yes, sahaja. This is sahaja. You are part and parcel of Krsna. Sahaja, sahaja means you are born along with Krsna. Krsna is neither born, neither you are born. Sahaja, this word, means saha-ja, "along with born." So you are part and parcel. Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. When I was born, the finger was also born. This is saha-ja. The finger was not separately born. When I was born, the finger was born. So similarly, so long God is there, I am also there. So God is eternal; I am also eternal. You understand this? Then why you are changing body? And that is knowledge.

Indian man (5): No, why do we at all enter into this circle?

Prabhupada: That I have already explained. You want to be a separate Krsna. That is your ambition.

Indian man (5): Initial thing is that.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is initial. A servant, big man's servant, if he... That is natural, that "If I would have become the master." So a servant, if he wants to become the master, that is artificial. A servant remains a servant-he is happy. And as soon as he tries artificially to become the master, that is the beginning of distress. So we are eternal servant of God. As soon as we try to become God, that is the beginning of our suffering.

Indian man (2): [Transl. Not to have desire for moksa or liberation?]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man (2): [Transl. No desire for moksa?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Moksa is required when you have become entangled. Then you require moksa. I am explaining the cause of your entanglement. Before becoming entangled…when you have already become entangled then question of moksa arises.] The starting is there. Iccha-dvesa-samutthena sarge yanti paran-tapa [Bg 7.27]. [Transl. When we desired that how we would become Krsna, immediately we became entangled by Maya.] Krsna bhūliya jiva bhoga vancha kare, pasete maya tare japatiya dhare [Prema-vivarta, 6.2]. As soon as you desire like this, that "I shall become God," so immediately there is maya. That is maya. So when you are entangled in maya, then there is question of mukti. The mukti means muktir hitva 'nyatha rūpam svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6].

This is mukti. Mukti means when you are acting differently. That is my condition. That is my bondage. And when I act according to my original position, that is mukti. So everyone is acting here to become master. So there is no question of mukti. As soon as you understand that "My real position is I am servant of God, so let me act as serv...," then it is mukti. Hitva anyatha rūpam. At the present moment we are trying to act as master. So you give it down..., up. Act as servant. Then you are mukta. Therefore a bhakta is mukta. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhūyaya kalpate. Mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena-bhakti-yogena ya sevate [Bg 14.26]. Anyone who is engaged as bhakta, he is mukta. All are conditioned. So if you become bhakta, if you surrender to Krsna-immediately mukti, instantly. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo [Bg 18.66].

You are conditioned; you are bound up on account of your sinful activities. So Krsna says, "I'll give you relief from all the reaction of sinful activity. You surrender." So mukti means one second. You surrender to Krsna; it takes one second. But that is very difficult. That requires many, many births. Bahūnam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg 7.19]: after many, many births of suffering, when he comes to the knowledge that "I am servant of Krsna. Why I am trying to become master?" that is jnanavan. And then he surrenders to.... Vasudevaḥ sarvam iti sa mahatma [Bg 7.19]. That is mahatma. It takes one second.

Mr. Bajaj: Prabhupada, surrender, sar..., word, if you can give us a full explanation of the word surrender. What's the meaning of surrender, and how one should do it? Features of surrender.

Prabhupada: Surrender, this is surrender, that... First of all, why you surrender? You must know it perfectly well that "Krsna is master; I am servant." Otherwise there is no question of surrender. Then you have to believe that "Krsna says, aham tvam sarva papebhyo moksayisyami [Bg 18.66]. So now I have surrendered; I have no more fear. Krsna will give me protection." To believe firmly, "Krsna is all powerful. Krsna is my master. He is not a fakkaḍa, that He's talking nonsense." We have to believe that. This is surrender. If you think, "Krsna is another fakkaḍa like me. He's talking nonsense," then there is not surrender. You have to believe that. That is explained in the Caitanya-caritamrta, that sraddha sabde visvasa sudrḍha niscaya [Cc Madhya 22.62].

This is sraddha. Sraddha is the beginning. That sraddha means when you firmly believe in Krsna: "Yes, He'll give me protection." That is surrender. Krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. When you come to this stage, firmly believe in the words of Krsna, that is surrender. First of all, you have to check yourself whether you firmly believe in the words of God. If you don't believe, there is no question of surrender. Then you will remain where you are. This is firm belief: "Krsna says that He will give me protection, so let me surrender. I have surrendered to maya-I have not become happy-so why not surrender to Krsna?" This is intelligence. You are not free. Then why you are declaring yourself as free? This is your disease. So intelligent means that I have no freedom actually. I am acting under the dictation of my senses. I am servant of my senses. So why not become servant of Krsna? This is intelligent. Everyone is acting under senses, order of the senses. Kamadinam kathidha na kathida palita durni-desaḥ [Cc Madhya 22.16].

Even I don't want to do it, something wrong, but my senses are dictating, so "All right, let me do it." So we are... I am servant of the senses. My position is twofold: either I become the servant of the senses or I become servant of Krsna. My position is the same. Simply I have to change it.

Indian man (2): How to run away from the senses, master of the senses? I, being a servant of the senses, become the master of the senses. How to run away from the senses?

Prabhupada: Yes. You are servant. That is gosvami. That is svami, gosvami. Svami means when he's no longer servant of the senses, a master of the senses. That is svami.

Indian man (2): How to convert the position?

Prabhupada: That requires education, training. You have become a lawyer not in one day. You have been trained up. Then you are lawyer. Similarly, everyone has to be trained up how to become perfect servant, but he must agree in the beginning that "Now I shall become servant of Krsna." Then everything is there. Adau sraddha tataḥ sadhu-sahgo 'tha bhajana-kriya tato 'nartha-nivrttiḥ syat tato nistha tato ruciḥ tataḥ athasaktiḥ tato bhavaḥ [Cc Madhya 23.14-15]. These are the different stages. Adau sraddha: "Yes. Now Krsna says, 'You surrender.' I'll surrender. I believe in this, firmly believe." Sraddha-sabde visvasa sudrḍha niscaya [Cc Madhya 22.62]. This sraddha means when you firmly believe that "Krsna will give me all protection if I surrender." And that is the beginning of sraddha.

Indian man (2): Faith. Firm faith.

Prabhupada: Faith. Yes. Faith means firm faith. Faith does not mean... Anyway, adau sraddha. This sraddha, if we increase this sraddha, you have to associate with sadhu. And who is sadhu? Bhajate mam ananya-bhak sadhur eva samantavyaḥ [Bg 9.30]. He is sadhu, who is simply engaged in Krsna's service. He is sadhu. Api cet suduracaraḥ: "Even though you find there is some discrepancies in his character, because he is fully engaged in My service, he is sadhu." Sadhur eva sa mantavyaḥ samyag vyavasito hi saḥ [Bg 9.30]. If he has got other engagement, he is not sadhu. Anyabhilasita-sūnyam [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11]: "Other engagement, zero." That is sadhu. The sadhu-sahga [Cc Madhya 22.83].

You have to associate with such sadhus who are cent per cent engaged in Krsna's service. Adau sraddha tato sadhu-sahgaḥ tato bhajana-kriya. If you mix with the sadhu, then you'll learn the activities. Sadhu-marganugamanam. [Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu 1.1.74]

The sadhus are rising early in the morning; they are attending mahgala-arati, they are reading Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, then dressing the Deity and having arati and so on, so on, so on. This is called bhajana-kriya. Adau sraddha tataḥ sadhu-sahgo 'tha bhajana [Cc Madhya 23.14]. Then anartha-nivrttiḥ syat: then all these material activities will stop. Because if you are engaged in spiritual act..., where is your time for material activities, for drinking wine and eating meat and going to the restaurant and...? No time. These boys, although they are trained up from childhood how to eat meat, how to drink, but now they have no time. They never ask me, "Swamiji, give me one rupee. I shall go to the cinema." Never. They have no time. Anartha-nivrttiḥ syat, all anarthas finished. These are the stages. Then his life becomes of devotion. Athasaktiḥ nistha: "Yes, I shall stick to Krsna consciousness." Tato nistha tato ruciḥ. Ruciḥ means taste. Unless they have got taste, why they should remain with me? They are not coming from poor family. His father is a big lawyer. You know? Yes. So why he is living with me? He has got taste, ruciḥ. Tato nistha tato ruciḥ, athasaktiḥ. Asaktiḥ, attachment. Whenever I am there, they are coming. Asaktiḥ. Tato bhavaḥ. "Oh, I am servant of Krsna. I have to do this." These are the different stages. Sadhakanam ayam premnaḥ pradurbhave bhavet kramaḥ [Cc Madhya 23.15]. These are the different stages, kramaḥ. Kramaḥ means gradual evolution.

So you have to take that gradual evolution. But it will be done if you remain with the associate. Sahgat sanjayate kamaḥ [Bg 2.62]. They are giving this opportunity. Come here in our association and learn the art. I have seen in Bombay. The other day I went to a gentleman's apartment. He is.... The gentleman is earning two thousand, and the wife is earning seven hundred. But they are living in an apartment of this size. Within this, there is bedroom, and there is kitchen, and there is toilet, and everything is there. And if we say people, "Please come here. Take a room like this and chant Hare Krsna," they'll not come. They'll prefer to remain in that tiny apartment. Am I right or not?

Indian man (2): Yes, sir.

Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has declared, ei rūpe brahmanḍa bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva. They are rotting or rotating within this universe in different species of life. But if by chance he becomes fortunate, then take to Krsna consciousness.

Indian man (2): The meaning I don't follow.

Prabhupada: All living entities are rotting in this way, but if some of them or one of them becomes very fortunate, then by the grace of guru and Krsna he gets this line of devotional service. It is for the most fortunate person, not ordinary.

Indian man (3): What's the difference between grace and mercy?

Prabhupada: Grace means he'll willingly give you mercy; and mercy means you ask for mercy. krpa-siddha. Sadhana-siddha and krpa-siddha. You are trying to earn one lakh of rupees-that is sadhana. But if somebody is gracious, he can give you: "Take one lakh of rupees. Don't work hard." That is grace. That is krpa. You are ambitious for one lakh of rupees or somebody graciously gives you, "All right, take"-there are many persons-so that is grace. Otherwise, you earn by your hard labor.

That is sadhana. Similarly, by association, by sadhana-bhakti, you attain perfection, and by grace also you can attain perfection. Two ways. So those who are krpa-siddha, they are more fortunate. [Transl. Everything is there. It is our Indian culture. Do not give up Indian culture. There will be no gain, only loss. Try to understand these things correctly and] preach this Bhagavad-gita as it is. People will be benefited. You will be benefited. Don't make unnecessary interpretation, misguide others and spoil your own life. That is very unfortunate. What is the difficulty to accept Bhagavad-gita? There is no difficulty. Unfortunately we interpret in different way and take it other way. So our little attempt is to spread Bhagavad-gita as it is, and whatever it may be, it is being accepted in the Western countries. Not by all, but the people in general. Now the... Feeling the weight, they have now began opposing.

Mr. Bajaj: Have seen the new light.

Prabhupada: Yes. They're opposing me very vigorously in America.

Mr. Bajaj: And that is a good sign.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is our victory. When there is opposition, and that is our victory. In spite of opposition, we are selling our books in large quantity. Yes. Large quantity. What is the one week sale that? Eighteen lakhs or something like...

Giriraja: In one week, the books, total of books, was seven lakhs books in one week.

Mr. Bajaj: In one week? That would be hundred thousand dollars.

Prabhupada: No, no. More than. Eh? Seven lakhs?

Indian man (3): But mostly they are in America. Also in that number in Japan?

Prabhupada: No, America. And opposition is also in America. No, Europe and America, they are taking.

Indian man (4): Opposition is, Prabhupada, natural. Because you are converting their churches into temples.

Prabhupada: No, there are many of. First thing is that my students are advised, "No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication up to the point of smoking cigarette and drinking tea, and no gambling." But this is their life. How they can give up this? And that is... It is a shock. Therefore they say "brainwash," that "How a gentleman can give up all these things?" Many... Not many. A few of my students, they left. They said that "Swamiji is denying the primary necessities of life." They left. They could not tolerate. So I do not make any compromise: that if you want to become my student you have to give up these things. So the responsible parents, they are appreciating that "My son is now purified." But some of them, there are...

Indian man (2): They feel that you are kidnapping their children. [laughs]

Prabhupada: And therefore they are kidnapping. And his father, mother came in Calcutta. His mother asked, "Swamiji, please return my son." And "Take your son."

Indian man (2): Please...?

Prabhupada: "Return my son." [laughter] And "Take your son." And then he was asked, and he was silent. So mother began to cry. So I promised that "I shall send your son. He'll go. Don't bother." His father, mother came. And many father, mother come to give me thanks: "Swamiji, it is great fortune of our country that you have come."

Indian man (3): Similar instance about the Mahamsa svami also, Parsee boy, who is now in Hyderabad.

Giriraja: Mahamsa.

Indian man (3): His mother was very...

Prabhupada: Her mother said... In the beginning she opposed. Yes, she is happy now.

Indian man (3): She wants to meet you, Prabhupada. Shall I bring her tomorrow?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

Indian man (2): You are going to Kumbha-mela tomorrow?

Prabhupada: Day after.

Indian man (2): Day after.

Prabhupada: So our movement is genuine. Now it is up to you to help this movement. And there is no concoction. From... Sa evayam maya te 'dya yogaḥ proktaḥ puratanaḥ [Bg 4.3]. As Krsna said five thousand years ago, yogaḥ proktaḥ puratanaḥ. So we are also presenting that puratanaḥ. This philosophy is not new. Puratanaḥ. So we have nothing to tax our brain to manufacture something new. So people give me credit: "Swamiji, you have done wonderful, wonderful." I do not know magic. But I am presenting puratanaḥ, that's all; no adulteration. If there is any credit, the credit is this-yogaḥ proktaḥ puratanaḥ.

Indian man (4): Puratanaḥ and sasvata.

Prabhupada: Puratanaḥ means sasvata. Yes. Nityaḥ sasvato puratanaḥ. So the sun is puratanaḥ. The sun is puratanaḥ, but the shining is the same. And similarly, if we present the puratanaḥ yoga, then it is effective. Then it is effective.

Indian man (3): Swamiji, I wanted to know the importance of Kumbha-mela.

Prabhupada: This is the assembly of great saintly persons. That's all.

Indian man (3): No, if we people go there at Kumbha-mela time, is it good?

Prabhupada: Is it not good if so many saintly persons will come? The atmosphere is so nice.

Indian man (3): So many people accumulate.

Prabhupada: Yes. Not only... Not people, but saintly persons.

Indian man (3): Saintly persons, of course.

Prabhupada: Yes. They have actually executed bhajana, sadhana. Brahmeti paramatmeti . Maybe somebody is brahmavadi, somebody paramatmavadi, somebody bhaktas, but they're transcendental. They're not materialistic persons. So you get their association, sadhu-sahga [Cc Madhya 22.83] Adau sraddha tataḥ sadhu-sahgaḥ. So sadhu-sahga is essential. And that is our civilization. Sadhu-sahga.

Indian man (5): So many people come with one wish, and the whole atmosphere is charged there.

Prabhupada: Yes, spiritual... [Transl. The effect of sadhu-sahga must be felt.]

Indian man (2): Sadhu-sahga, of course, is very important. Getting to take a dip in Ganges at that..., during this period, has that got any particular significance apart from sadhu-sahga?

Prabhupada: Yes. There is. At least your faith is increased. With faith you take a dip. Faith cure. And Ganges herself is purifying.

Indian man (2): No. Is there special significance during this period? That is all the time.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is... The significance is sadhu-sahga purification. Our Vedic principle is: whatever is enjoined in the Vedas, we should accept it without any argument. That is Vedic injunction. This example we give generally: just like sahkha. Sahkha is the bone of an animal. So according to Vedic system, if you touch the bone of an animal, dead body animal, then you have to take bath immediately. But the sahkha is pure. Now, you cannot argue that "It is the bone of an animal. You say one place that 'Bone of animal is impure. You have to take bath; you have touched it,' and this sahkha is in their Deity worship? It is contradictory." But because it is stated in the Vedas, you have to accept. This is Vedic injunction. You cannot argue. There is no question of arguing. Just like cow dung is the stool of an animal. Even if we touch my own stool, I take bath. But cow dung, it is said, it is pure. If there is anywhere impure, you smear the cow dung, it will be pure. Now, you can argue that "It is stool of an animal. How it becomes pure?" This argument will not... So Vedic knowledge means don't argue. You have to accept it. acintyaḥ khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet. [Mahabharata, Bhisma-parva 5.22] Things... There are many things which is beyond your perception, so you have to accept the Vedic injunction. Then you are right. So if the Vedic injunction is: "In such and such moment you take a bath in the Ganges; you become purified," you take it. There is no question of argument. That is faith. But faith must be there. Vedo-pranihito dharmaḥ. [SB 6.1.40] Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Everything is there.

[to devotees] Can you find out this verse from the Sixth Canto?

Jagadisa: I know the verse.

Prabhupada: Sixth Canto, First Part. Veda-pranihito dhar... Yamaraja's instruction. Er, the Yamadūtas explain what is dharma, veda-pranihito dharmaḥ. Where you found the page?

Prabhupada: What is the translation?

Pradyumna: "The Yamadūtas replied: That which is prescribed in the Vedas constitutes dharma, the religious principles, and the opposite of that is irreligion."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pradyumna: "The Vedas are directly the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, and are self-born. This we have heard from Yamaraja."

Prabhupada: "This we have heard." This is authority. If you have heard from the authority, that is knowledge. If you have manufactured, that is nonsense. Iti susruma. You'll find Arjuna also speaking with Krsna-iti susruma. And Sukadeva Gosvami, he is such a learned scholar. He also-iti sus..., that this is our knowledge: to hear and receive the knowledge from higher authority. In the ordinary way also, the students go to the college, they hear from the professor. That is knowledge. He does not go to a pan-walla to hear. One who is authorized, professor, we hear from him. Similarly, we have to get knowledge from the authority. So supreme authority is Krsna. So hear from Him. Then it is knowledge. Otherwise, tad ajnanam yad anyatha. What is that? Tad anya...?

Pradyumna: Etaj jnanam iti proktam [Bg 13.12].

Prabhupada: Iti proktam and yad anyatha ajnanam: "Besides this," anyatha, "that is all ajnanam." So we can take perfect knowledge from Krsna. There is no difficulty. But we deny: "Why shall I take?" That is our disease. The same thing: "I am also Krsna. I can also speak like Krsna." This is...

Indian man: Aham.

Prabhupada: Ahahkara-vimūḍhatma [Bg 3.27]. Not only aham. Aham is good. Aham brahmasmi, that is good. But ahahkara-vimūḍhatma, when he becomes rascal by false ahahkara, then it is dangerous. It is dangerous. And that is going on. These dangerous leaders, by ahahkara, spoiling the whole atmosphere. That is dangerous. Our preaching is... We say that "Here is Krsna speaking. He says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65]. So you simply think of Krsna, and you chant His name and go to the temple, offer your obeisances. And if you can, offer something for His pūja." Bas. Our mission is completed. Where is the difficulty? There is no difficulty. The words are there.

[break]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Like a big Master….This is going on.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Just like Bhagavan Rajneesh.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Anybody. This is going on. Nowadays it has become very easy to become Bhagavan.]

Indian man (2): [laughs] [Transl. Visesana.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Visesa?]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Adjective. Visesana.]

Prabhupada: Ahahkara-vimūḍhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg 3.27].

Giriraja: About fifteen more minutes.

Prabhupada: Hmm? So I can go up and take my massage now. [Transl. So all of you take prasada before you go. I have to go take bath.]

Mr. Bajaj: [Transl. Okay. Whatever was discussed at Wardha is all printed as a book. Photographs are there.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Sit down here and take prasada.]

Giriraja: Actually, we could show the book movie. I don't think anyone here has seen it.

Prabhupada: Ah. Yes. [Transl. Show them.]

Giriraja: [to guests:] I don't think... You didn't see that. Okay I'll just get that. It's a very short movie, fifteen minutes. Very inspiring.

Indian man (2): [Transl. These things are vanishing.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I always wanted that Bhagavad-gita should be discussed properly and widely.] The real purport of Bhagavad-gita is to surrender to Krsna. Then it is successful. [Transl. If you want then the Bhagavad-gita and topics of the Supreme Lord could be discussed thoroughly in your places.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Maharajaji, in the program we arranged at Wardha we purposely avoided the real subject matter of Bhagavad-gita, because for that you all are there in the high lavel. To discuss all that is though important, but it's a huge subject matter. What we wanted is that invite all the great religious leaders who are already engaged in this work, and have them be present there so that they can know each other, become familiar with each other's work and combinedly give a proper direction in this endeavor. Their aim is one-Bhagavata-dharma.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. Not one.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. The purpose is surely one, but their process might be different.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. Not one. The purpose itself is different. This is the problem.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Those who preach Bhagavad-gita or expect that the people follow the instructions of Bhagavad-gita and act accordingly...]

Prabhupada: [Transl. The instruction of Bhagavad-gita is…the Supreme Lord said, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, but who becomes a devotee of Krsna? That means the purpose is different. Completely different.] If you take Bhagavad-gita, the speaker of Bhagavad-gita says this is the purpose: man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg 18.66]. Duskrtino naradhamaḥ. That... Na mam prapadyante mūḍha duskrtino naradhamaḥ [Bg 7.15]. "One who does not do that, he is sinful, duskrtino mūḍhaḥ, and fool, rascal, naradhamaḥ, lowest of the mankind." He is chastising like that. So if you have got other purpose, that means you come to this group: duskrtino mūḍha naradhamaḥ.

Indian man (2): So [Transl. if you see this] Ramakrishna Mission.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Anybody. Forget about Ramakrishna Famkrishna.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. These Gorakhpur people…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That anyone can give his own opinion.] But why do you take Bhagavad-gita? You are free to do whatever you like. That freedom is given. Krsna has given. Ye yatha mam prapadyante [Bg 4.11]. That you have got. But when you speak of Bhagavad-gita, then you speak what Krsna wants.

Mr. Bajaj: You should take Bhagavad-gita as it is. You explain it but not interpret it.

Prabhupada: There is no need of interpretation.

Indian man (2): You can explain it in the language which people can understand.

Prabhupada: Explanation also not very much required, because the explanation is already there, and we are not so intelligent that we can explain. But we take it, the words of the Bhagavad-gita, that Krsna says, na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante naradhamaḥ [Bg 7.15]. If we see that one is not surrendered to Krsna, he comes to this group: duskrtina, naradhamaḥ and mūḍha. That's all. This is our conclusion. We are fools and rascal. We take the words of Krsna. He cannot surrender to Krsna on account of duskrtina. Krti means he's doing something meritorious-but for bad purpose, duskrtina. He is taxing his brain to do something, but against the will of Bhagavad-gita. That is called duskrtina. The purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to surrender to Krsna, or God. But if you are deviating them to become atheists, naradhamaḥ, then what is Bhagavad-gita preaching? You preach Bhagavad-gita as it is. So they take the Bhagavad-gita for serving their purpose. Somebody was telling me that Dr. Radhakrishnan said that "If you take Bhagavad-gita as..., Krsna as God...," something like that, that they deny that Krsna is God. This is Bhagavad-gita preaching. God is speaking Himself-bhagavan uvaca. Vyasadeva [Transl. was so fool that he didn't say Krsna uvaca. He said bhagavan uvaca. And these big, big leaders say that you should not accept Krsna as God. Just see! They are scholars! And we have to accept because the scholars have said it. This is going on.] Vyasadeva... Who can be better scholar than Vyasadeva? Vidvan or scholar. He is recognized vidvan. Veda-vyasa. All acaryas accept. Vidvams cakre satvata-samhita [SB 1.7.6]. So Vyasadeva writes bhagavan uvaca. [Transl. These are not Bhagavan's words-they speculate and interprete whimsically like this. Is it not?] All cent per cent, they are speaking something which is not the purpose of Bhagavad-gita. [Transl. But there is no use of it.] You can speak whatever you like. You have got that liberty.

Mr. Bajaj: Is it, Prabhupada, just to satisfy their own ego that they are doing in this way?

Prabhupada: Some reason anyabhilasita. He has got other purpose, not the purpose of preaching Bhagavad-gita. That is called anyabhilasa. So people are infested with anyabhilasa, everyone. Therefore he is living this material life. But that should be zero. Anyabhilasita-sūnyam [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11]. That you have to... That is sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg 18.66]. If you have got other purposes within yourself, then you'll never understand Bhagavad-gita. This is bhakti.

And Krsna says, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg 18.55]. You cannot understand Krsna without bhakti. And this is bhakti: anyabhilasita-sūnyam [Cc Madhya 19.167]. So they have got full of anyabhilasa, jnana-karma, so they are not bhaktas; they cannot understand Krsna. They are talking nonsense. This is the position. Because they are not bhaktas-karmi, jnani, yogi-they have got some purpose. Karmi is flatly that "We want this enjoyment." And jnani, he says superficially that brahma satyam jagan mithya: "The jagat is mithya, so we don't want this jagat. But I want mukti, to become one with the Supreme." So that is also anyabhilasa. He does not know it. He's thinking that "I'm better than these karmis. The karmis have got anyabhilasa. So I have rejected that. Brahma-satya. I have taken to Brahman." But that is also anyabhilasa, because he wants to become one with the Brahman. Subtle. And yogis, they also want mystic power, to show magic. So he also anyabhilasita-pūrna. So none of them are fit to understand Bhagavad-gita. So Bhagavad-gita will be understood by him who is anyabhilasita-sūnyam. But none of these karmis, jnanis, yogis, they are anyabhilasita-sūnyam [Cc Madhya 19.167].

They're anyabhilasita-pūrnam. They cannot understand Bhagavad-gita. It is not possible. Therefore Krsna said that "You are My very confidential friend. I am talking to you the most confidential part of knowledge. Give up all this nonsense. You simply surrender." Guhyad guhyata-what is that? Find out. Guhyatamam. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me [Bg 4.3].

Hari-sauri: Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto?

Prabhupada: No, guhyad guhyatamam. Before saying sarva dharman parityajya [Bg 18.66], that "My dear Arjuna, you are My very confidential friend. I have spoken to you so many things." What is that?

Hari-sauri: Sarva-guhyatamam bhūyaḥ.

Prabhupada: Sarva-guhyatamam.

Hari-sauri: Srnu me paramam vacaḥ.

Prabhupada: Paramam vacaḥ.

Hari-sauri: Isto 'si me drḍham iti tato vaksyami te hitam [Bg 18.64].

Prabhupada: "Now I am speaking to you real now." Then He says sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg 18.66]. Sarva-guhyatamam. "This is the confidential knowledge. And this is open to you because you are My very intimate friend. It is not to be disclosed." Others will not understand. Others will not understand. Sarva-guhyatamam.

Hari-sauri: Sarva-guhyatamam bhūyaḥ srnu me...

Prabhupada: Paramam vacaḥ. Paramam means supreme instruction. Why? Now...?

Hari-sauri: Isto 'si me drḍham iti.

Prabhupada: Isto 'si: "I know you are My very sincere devotee and friend." Then?

Hari-sauri: Tato vaksyami te hitam.

Prabhupada: Tato vaksyami te hitam. This is the confidential knowledge. Anyabhilasita-sūnyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam, anukūlyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc Madhya 19.167]. You simply act favorably to Krsna. Then agreed: "Yes, I shall fight." Because he understood that "I have to satisfy Krsna, not my whims. I was thinking of my whims, that 'They are my family members. How shall I fight? Why You are putting me this proposal?' So on, so on, so on..." That... What is that verse? Find out that karisye vacanam tava. There. There you'll find. Agreed. "Yes." In the beginning he disagreed. Nasto mohaḥ smrtir labdha tvat prasadan madhusūdana, karisye vacanam [Bg 18.73]. Nasto mohaḥ. After so much instruction, if his moha is not dissipated, then what is the use? So he said nasto mohaḥ.

[to Hari-sauri:] You could not find?

Hari-sauri: What's the first line?

Prabhupada: Nasto! Why don't you find? You. Give him. He'll find. Why don't you give to Pradyumna?

Hari-sauri: Nasto mohaḥ smrtir labdha?

Prabhupada: Ha!

Prabhupada: That's it. Sthito 'smi gata-sandehaḥ. Karisye vacanam. This is liberation: "Now I am fixed up," sthito 'smi, "all doubts gone." This is real study of Bhagavad-gita. And promises, karisye vacanam: "All right, I shall fight. I shall kill Bhismadeva. Never mind he's my grandfather. No question of nonviolence. I shall commit violence." This is Krsna consciousness. Because nasto mohaḥ. "It was my mohaḥ, I was thinking in that way, that 'He's my grandfather. He's my brother. He's my nephew.' These are all nonsense. I have to satisfy You." Karisye vacanam tava [Bg 18.73]. That is anukūlyena krsnanu-silanam [Cc Madhya 19.167]. Bhakti means to act to satisfy to Krsna. That is bhakti. Without any argument, what Krsna says, that's all right.

Indian man (4): Unconditional.

Prabhupada: Unconditional. That is surrender. If we read Bhagavad-gita in that way, then sthito 'smi, then sthita prajna. And if you make kat-chaht... Arjuna said, sarvam etad rtam manye yan mam vadasi kesava [Bg 10.14]: "Kesava, whatever You have said, I accept it in total." That is surrender. No kat-chaht.

Indian man (4): Fulfills all requirements, mental requirements.

Prabhupada: I'll request Bajajji. You are, yourself, your wife and your sister, and our Sriman Narayanaji, all, you are all very intelligent. You take this Bhagavad-gita preaching seriously. That is my request. Not kat-chaht

Indian man (4): No, no. I'm not interested in kat-chaht. It's not difficult.

Prabhupada: [Transl. What do you have to say? Am I right?] No kat-chaht. It's not difficult.. Sarvam etad rtam manye [Bg 10.14]. What is that verse?

Hari-sauri: Sarvam etad rtam manye yan mam vadasi kesava.

Prabhupada: Ah. "Whatever You are saying," yan mam vadasi kesava, "I accept them." No kat-chaht. No mutilation. Then?

Hari-sauri: Na hi te bhagavan vyaktim vidur deva na danavaḥ.

Prabhupada: "Your personality is not understood even by the demigods, what to speak of ordinary men." Then?

Hari-sauri: Vidur deva na danavaḥ.

Prabhupada: What the deva? The demigods do not, what to speak of the demons, danavan. Then? Next verse?

Prabhupada: So, param brahma param dhama pavitram [Bg 10.12]. So sarvam etad rtam manye [Bg 10.14]. If we accept sarvam etad rtam, as it is, then we be benefited, and if we do not accept in that way, then it is nastaḥ. Sa kaleneha mahata yogo nastaḥ paran-tapa. Then it is being spoiled. And what benefit you will get with spoiled things? As soon as you interpret, it is spoiled, immediately spoiled. So what benefit will be derived from the spoiled things? And that is being done. Don't believe in Krsna, don't believe in the words of Krsna, and if I am preaching Bhagavad-gita, what is the benefit? It is spoiled. So if you distribute some spoiled food, it will increase food poison. That is going on. Instead of taking benefit from a first-class food, if you distribute a spoiled, then there will be food poisoning. That is being done. In India every home knows Bhagavad-gita. And because it is spoiled now, there will be food poisoning. They are denying the existence of God. God is speaking-Bhagavan uvaca-and they are now..., don't... They are not believing in the existence of God. "God? Where is God? Science." This is going on. If we speak of God, then we are primitive. And up-to-date? "I am God; you are God." This is up-to-date. And if we say, "Look, God is Krsna. You worship Him. You become devotee," this is primitive. And these Americans, although they are up-to-date, they have accepted it, my word. I presented them that Krsna is God; they have accepted. This is their qualification.

Indian man (3): Supreme Lord.

Prabhupada: Yes. I have told them that Krsna is the Supreme Lord, and they have accepted. This is my magic, and this is their magic. That's all. You ask them if I did any magic with them.

Indian man (3): This is magic itself. [laughter]

Prabhupada: [laughs] Yes, it is magic. It is magic undoubtedly. But I never created any gold or some other... And neither I do know it, how to do it, although there is no scarcity of gold in my pocket. I started this business with forty rupees.

[pause] So I'll go to take massage. Thank you very much. [Transl. Take, take prasada.] ...prasada. Show. Show the film. You are going to show?

Giriraja: Haridasa took the projector, so I don't know when it's coming.

Prabhupada: Why he has? [break] [end]