Morning Walk
and Room Conversation

December 26, 1976, Bombay
Devotee (1): I have just come from America, and at the universities, lots of times there are many questions concerning evolution and I was curious about what our position is in terms of artifacts. Bones like dinosaur bones and things like that that the scientists say they found.
Prabhupada: Scientists are rascals. Those who are following Darwin. What is their theory?
Devotee (1): They maintain that from the oceans came one-celled animals. Then from these one-celled animals, they developed into fish and then reptiles. And then these reptiles became very big dinosaurs, and they have put together many big museums. For instance, in Washington the Smithsonian Museum has many, many big bones put together and they date these millions of years ago.
Prabhupada: So we have got also the same theory. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. [break] ...within water. So where is the difference? We also admit the forms of life begins from the ocean. Then plants. As soon as the water is dried, there are plants, trees. Sthavara laksa-vimsati. Sthavara means "the life which cannot move." So the trees, plants, grass, they cannot move. Then insects, then reptiles, then birds, then beast, then human being. In this way the living entity is changing body. So what is the difficulty?
Devotee (1): But they say that the human body developed right from these other bodies. In other words...
Prabhupada: Evolution, from beast human body has come. That is the difference? Even there is difference, what is the idea?
Devotee (1): Well, they maintain that therefore man was not created by God, but simply by chemicals.
Prabhupada: Rascals! Wherefrom the life came first? Wherefrom the life came from? When you find life in the water, wherefrom this life came?
Devotee (1): They say originally it came from chemicals that came together.
Prabhupada: Rascal! Create from chemicals. Otherwise, beat them with shoes in their mouth. Why you talk nonsense? Create from chemicals, life. [break] What do they say?
Devotee (1): They say they're working on it.
Prabhupada: Then be beaten with shoes. When you're successful, then say. Otherwise, I shall beat you with shoes. That's all. That is your punishment. You have not come to the experimental stage, and you are talking, "This is science." Science is experiment and observation. Unless the experiment is practical, practical science... It will be accepted as science when the experiment is successful. Not before that. That is scientific method. First of all, observe. It may be happening like this. But that "maybe" should be confirmed by experiment. Then it is science. Even in colleges there is practical examination. Theoretical and practical. So unless... "We are trying." Everyone will say, "I am trying." "I am trying to become millionaire." When you become millionaire, then say that you are millionaire. You are trying for becoming millionaire and you say, "I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? Huh?
Devotee (1): Yes. No one has ever observed the life coming from matter.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just prove that life comes from chemicals. How is that? "I am trying to be millionaire, therefore I am millionaire." What is this nonsense? You are trying to create from chemicals. Therefore you are scientist. What's this kind of scientist? Beat them with shoes. That's all.
Guest (1) (Indian man): I have a researcher in our family, and he thinks the theory of evolution is the dasa-avatara.
Prabhupada: You can think like that. Your thinking has no value.
Guest (1): No, not my thinking.
Prabhupada: Then don't say, "I am thinking."
Guest (1): No, I said I have a researcher in my family, he thinks.
Prabhupada: What research? He's a rascal also!
Guest (1): No, but he thinks the dasa-avatara...
Prabhupada: "He thinks," means he's a rascal. Nothing to be think. It must be from the sastra.
Guest (1): Is there any evidence in sastra that I can look?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Guest (1): The dasa-avataras, that the first was Matsya and then Kurma and Varaha, and finally...
Prabhupada: That is God's pastime. He becomes like this, like that. It is not evolution.
Guru dasa: God is not so morphic. He's not an animal. Just like we're in this room but we don't become part of the room. [break]
Srutasrava: ...so clear, but they refuse to accept it cause if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense. You make all these things so crystal clear, but they refuse to accept because if they do then they will have to give up all their nonsense.
Prabhupada: Refusal, let them refuse, and who cares for them?
Guru dasa: Actually, if they were successful in any experiment they would be out of a job. So they actually want material life, scientists.
Prabhupada: And now what is their science? This is science that "We are trying." What is this nonsense science? Do you think this is science? "We are trying." Everyone can say, "I'm trying." Is that science? Then? Any rascal can say that "I am trying." Is that science?
Amogha-lila: I heard that you had quoted a saying that anyone who goes to Lanka becomes a Ravana, and that similarly, when the devotees come to India, they become Ravana. I wonder if you would explain that or elaborate or explain how we can avoid this sort of thing happening. [break]
Prabhupada: Ask the leaders! I was talking that in all our other branches, our men manage the cooking and kitchen and as soon as they come here, they become varalasai. (?) That is Ravana. Why do they not do here? We have to keep some cook who is neither initiated, nor very clean, a smoker, and we have to keep them. [break] In all other branches, the boys and girls, they manage everything. [break]
Amogha-lila: ...follow the regulations more strictly?
Prabhupada: That I have to say again? That means Ravana. He's asking. I am repeatedly saying that follow, and he's asking. That means he's Ravana. Why you are inquiring like that. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? That means Ravana. If you know this is the solution, why don't you do it? [break]
Srutasrava: ...one week ago and in just four days time the devotees there have distributed over one lakh of Back To Godhead magazines in just four days.
Prabhupada: But you do not do here. Huh? That means Ravana. (laughter) [break] ...to become less intelligent, less active, and therefore I say, yaya sei lanka sei haya ravana,(?) "Anyone who comes to Lanka, he becomes Ravana."
Guest (1): Their promotion in local language would be very helpful.
Prabhupada: No, in India will purchase English magazine, he knows English.
Guest (1): Yes he knows, but the popularity will be much more in the Hindi and Gujarati and Marathi speaking people, Bengali speaking.
Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is for you, Indians. But you have no time. You are busy with your daughter's marriage, and you simply advise.
Guest (1): I am busy?
Prabhupada: Yes, everyone. Every Indian is busy with his own affair, he'll come and advise. That's all. Advise gratis. But he will not do himself.
Guest (1): No, but...
Prabhupada: No, this is going... I have got full experience, that Indians, they will come and give some advice, and go away for daughter's marriage. That's all.
Guest (1): Well there are various types of Indians, you know.
Prabhupada: That type of, 99%.
Guru dasa: Just like 99% of us become lazy when we come to India.
Prabhupada: You'll advise, but you'll never do it. That is going on. [break] ...elephants dance, and we see. This is Indian policy. These white elephants, they'll come and dance, and you'll see. And you are busy with your daughter's marriage. That's all. [break] ...means vairagya-vidya. Vairagya-vidya-nija-bhakti-yoga [Cc. Madhya 6.254]. Nobody can become a bhakta unless he has disgusted with material life. "I shall do this, I shall do that." And he'll never do bhakti-yoga. That's all. This is not possible. [break] Before leaving my family life I wanted to get my all sons and daughters married, but some of them disagreed, some of them... My wife disagreed. Let them go to hell, I don't care. Time is up. Never mind you are married or not married. Then see your own business. [break] I or you, then who will take care of the marriage of your daughter? Suppose you die immediately? Then who will take care?
Guest (1): God will give them...
Prabhupada: Then why don't you do that now? God will take care. It is called, my Guru Maharaja used to say, "civil suicide." Civil suicide. Just like if you commit suicide, that is criminal. But this is voluntarily committing suicide. Now I am dead. Whatever you like, you do. So we have to commit civil suicide if we are actually attached to Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya... [Bg. 18.66]. That is grha-dharma. But Krsna says, "Give up that." But that attachment is there. I do not think... Suppose I die immediately. Who will take care of my daughter? At that time we say "God." And why not now?
Guest (1): That feeling of attachment one has to give up gradually.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we cannot do because the attachment is there. That is the symptom.
Guest (1): Sankirtana will help give up the attachment.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore wherever you stay, chant Hare Krsna. That will help. Thaka ekhana paiya.(?) Chant Hare Krsna, try for the daughter's marriage. That will help. [break]
Guest (1): Civil suicide is a good thought.
Prabhupada: That is the thought only. Oh, Doctor comes.
Dr. Patel: I asked him where you were and he said that you are on the roof.
Prabhupada: Jaya. (Hindi) [break] I do not know. [break]
Dr. Patel: You agreed, huh? (indistinct) is coming.
Prabhupada: I am going within four days.
Dr. Patel: You go, find out what you... and then communicate with you. Huh?
Prabhupada: No, you asked me to stay at least a few days.(?)
Dr. Patel: But you must stay, if you don't stay, you can't stay, I have got not power to keep you. If you will stay, well and good. If you can't even, well I will try our best to inform you what should be done in four days. Hm?
Prabhupada: Let God do whatever He likes.
Dr. Patel: God will be do it through us.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: But whatever you do... (laughs) You do not know...
Prabhupada: No, whatever is there is there. Let it remain. They also require some shelter.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Why you are getting swelling or whether weakness of the heart. There are various reasons why did you get the swelling of he leg you know. We must find out by biochemical examination of the internal flesh. Such as the blood, urine, and stool, and put you on the right information. Now if you follow or not is your own sweet will, sir.
Prabhupada: Nartasya cagadam udanvati majjato nauh, balasya neha pitarau saranam nrsimha. Na artasya ca agadam. Tavad vibho tanu-bhrtam tvad-upeksitanam [SB 7.9.19]. If Krsna neglects somebody then these things will not help.
Dr. Patel: Krsna never neglects anybody. You have told once so. It is we, our own actions which we, I mean, forget. We get. If you walk too much you get tired. If you sit down you do not. If you walk then there is swelling of the leg, sir. Eh? So it is not Krsna. I mean, this is your own saying, eh? I am not manufacturing my own arguments.
Prabhupada: No, the sastra says, nartasya caga... There is no guarantee. But we may try but there is no guarantee.
Dr. Patel: This is the play of maya, that we all know. But so long as we are in maya we have to play our part, haven't we?
Prabhupada: But it is supposition, the pathologist.
Dr. Patel: No, I am going to bring. That was myself.
Prabhupada: He'll take blood, he'll take this, he'll take that. So that is another trouble. (chuckles)
Dr. Patel: No, no, but why should you have a minus on blood? Why should you have minus and whose blood is it? This is your own argument sir, I am very sorry.
Prabhupada: No, no...
Dr. Patel: Nothing is ours, the body is not ours.
Prabhupada: When you take blood, there is...
Dr. Patel: Not of that...
Prabhupada: No, no, not that, but I feel...
Dr. Patel: How you feel? You are a soul! The body feels, you do not feel. Now we are talking about the philosophy.
Prabhupada: I am not a liberated person.
Dr. Patel: You are liberated soul, we are following you. There are many others, sir otherwise we would not have come behind you. So sir, that is not right. And I think I have got a right to prevail upon you. Have I or have I not? Tell me that, or I'll run away back again. [break] ...its not full. Who knows? We may be liberated in past birth. That is how I come.
Prabhupada: That's fine. That's your process. You are trying to do something for the disease.
Dr. Patel: You see we must know exactly what is happening. After all, science is the same with the ayurvedic or allopathic or any. Science is... I mean, advancement of man's evolution of the man's understanding about things.
Prabhupada: I say but somebody says that... What is the medicine? I take some ayurvedic medicine.
Dr. Patel: No, you do take. We don't say no. You don't take any medicine, we know exactly where you stand, as the modern science explains us. [break] Well, he may not (indistinct) truth immediately, but that is his aim.
Prabhupada: Now I am feeling some dizziness.
Dr. Patel: Sit down, you sit down.
Prabhupada: Where is that sitting place?
Dr. Patel: (Hindi) Go down. [break]
Prabhupada: Harer nama eva kevalam, kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva [Cc. Adi 17.21]. [break] ...is a big tank of Calcutta Gas Company. That looks like this.
Dr. Patel: We have got also tank like this in Bombay. We have also gas company tanks. It's in (indistinct). We have bigger tanks here of the petroleum companies. Huge tanks, petroleum tanks.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Guru dasa: When I was in Northern Ireland preaching, they blew it up. The gas tank, by bombs. They blew the whole gas tank up.
Prabhupada: Where?
Guru dasa: In Northern Ireland, Belfast.
Dr. Patel: Those terrorists.
Prabhupada: It was here. Who has taken?
Guru dasa: It is coming now. Asana, asana. [break]
Prabhupada: The others, others is not.
Devotee (2): The other seat got taken away, Srila Prabhupada, for cleaning. For making it clean.
Devotee (1): We can get mattresses from your room and a pillow if you'd like to sit down.
Prabhupada: No, no, this is all right. [break]
Dr. Patel: Only tired feel? [break] ...or may be due to poverty of heart action, or it may be due to some inaction on the part of the kidney or some collection of some obnoxious substances in the blood. That is why we must have an analysis done. So for a right understanding, we can advise you what to do. Anyone can write analysis, acidity and (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Now, everything is less.
Dr. Patel: Then you stay here. And you're completely home, without anything. You are not prepared to... This is...
Prabhupada: As soon as this building is, I will take. (?)
Dr. Patel: We listen to you, but you don't listen. That is the misfortune of ours. Huh?
Prabhupada: Actually, I have got so many engagements. Actually, I have got engagement in Bhuvanesvara...
Dr. Patel: And you are going to Bhuvanesvara after fifteen days, no?
Prabhupada: ...Calcutta, in Allahabad, then Mayapura, then Vrndavana, then Bombay.
Dr. Patel: So to make you fit to go round, you must do something. It's very logical.
Guru dasa: "Penny wise, pound foolish."
Dr. Patel: So let pound be wise for the penny foolish. If you do in right path then you may not break down like (indistinct) getting all this trouble. [break] ...at least for four, five days. We don't want any more. In one day we will find out what to, how to, this will be cured. I don't mean medicine, but even advice, food, this, that, other things. If you get rid of the medicine, well, all medicines are, I mean, synthetics. They are not produced from animals. Many of them. [break]
Prabhupada: Harer nama eva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]. [break] ...that sound all the time. (sounds of birds)
Giriraja: Do they have many birds in Bhuvanesvara?
Prabhupada: Wherever there are nice trees, there will be birds.
Guru dasa: Giriraja is asking, he thinks there are more birds in Bombay than in Bhuvanesvara. Giriraja Prabhu is stating there is more birds in Bombay.
Dr. Patel: There are more crows in Bombay than any other place. (laughter)
Prabhupada: No, no. They are also birds.
Dr. Patel: There are very more filthier, for the crows, to clean.
Guru dasa: So Prabhupada should go then.
Dr. Patel: No, you see, if the good people is there, up there, you know the filth disappears.
Guru dasa: That's what the sastra says. The sun dries up urine in a filthy place.
Dr. Patel: So he must be here. Another argument and he will answer.
Guru dasa: Yes, but there is also urine in Bhuvanesvara. Indian doctor. In Bhuvanesvara you are going to have any plan for making a temple?
Prabhupada: What is my plan, that is always there. That is to print books and construct temples. Throughout the whole world this plan is going on. Fifty percent construction, fifty percent printing books. Whatever I get money, I give him. That's all. I am the same beggar. Either it comes ten lakhs or fifty lakhs, ten crores.
Dr. Patel: You are exhibiting this body to be "I". Acchedyo 'yam adahyo 'yam akledyo 'sosya eva ca.
Prabhupada: No, no, that is different.
Dr. Patel: You come down to body consciousness and talk to us. We want you to talk from higher consciousness.
Prabhupada: I have no higher consciousness.
Dr. Patel: Then talk from the lower consciousness, still lower.
Prabhupada: Why should I?
Dr. Patel: Let us go out and make a business in the stock market.
Prabhupada: I am doing business. I am selling books. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: Stock action. Why not. It is very easy.
Prabhupada: I am selling books.
Dr. Patel: Why not a Wall Street operation? It is very easy.
Prabhupada: They are all engaged in doing business.
Dr. Patel: Have you wanted a businessman to come?
Prabhupada: I am doing business.
Guest (3): (Hindi)
Dr. Patel: We can still make a bigger business in Wall Street. Have a Wall Street here in Bombay and... (laughs)
Prabhupada: You are criticizing the baniyas. The baniyas criticize the doctor. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: And doctor criticizes you.
Prabhupada: Baniyas say, they say, nal jal jachuri tene dhaturi.(?)
Dr. Patel: Nal jal?
Prabhupada: Jachuri.(?)
Dr. Patel: Jachuri means?
Prabhupada: Cheating. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Bengali) Or all cheating words.
Dr. Patel: But according to our sastra, it is so.
Prabhupada: No, no, this is according to baniya, the doctor is calculated...
Dr. Patel: Baniya is right in the way. Baniya is right.
Prabhupada: (Bengali)
Dr. Patel: In Bengali.
Prabhupada: In Bengali village there are many quacks. You know that. Everywhere. (laughter) So what their business? Nal jal yachuri tene dhaturi.(?)
Dr. Patel: In Mahabharata in Vidura-niti, Vidura has mentioned that a doctor should not be trusted and should not be allowed to come in the house. I am reading presently that part of Mahabharata. Why? Because they must be right from the beginning all the times also they must be of the same type.
Prabhupada: Another place, Vaisnava says, either he is businessman, or doctor, anyone, they are all madmen.
(Hindi) Ghostly haunted. And he talks all nonsense. Similarly, anyone who is in the material condition, he is a ghost-haunted man. So he can talk anything, all nonsense. Pisaci paile yena... This is applicable to everyone. Anyone who has got this material body, he's ghostly-haunted. Therefore we are explaining that verse, that first treatment is how to get out of the clutches of this ghost which has attacked everyone. So ghostly haunted man, he's himself a victim of the ghost. How he can treat other men? He's also haunted by the ghost. This is the position. You may, one may say, "I am haunted by better ghost." That may be, but every one of us ghostly haunted. And sastra says this is treatment. Tapasya. Tapo divyam putraka, yasmad sattvam suddhyed [SB 5.5.1]. Sattva, our existence, is polluted. [break] ...the skin and bone. The skin and bone will continue so long I am in the material condition of life. Either bird's skin... Just like who was talking of evolution, who was? This disease of skin and bone will continue. Because the spirit soul is not the bone and skin. The Darwin's theory, he is putting that the bone is changing. The bone is not changing. You get different bones in different life. I am changing my position. I am going from one apartment to another apartment. The apartment not changing. I am changing apartment. That is the difference between Darwin's theory and our theory. They are thinking the apartment is becoming another apartment. No. The apartments are already there. I am entering different apartments as I can pay for it. That is karma. According to my karma, I am sometimes residing in one apartment, in another apartment. This is going on. The Darwin's theory, the apartment is changing. That's not the fact. Fact is I am living entity. Tatha dehan..., Krsna also says tatha dehantara. Apartment antara. The spirit soul is the same. There is no change. That is spirit always. But according to his karma, he is going from this apartment, or this body, tatha dehan... That is the main point with the modern science and our Vedic knowledge. That is the main difference. They have no idea of the existence of the soul, and therefore say, "We are trying to make, we are trying to make." This rascaldom is going on. You cannot make soul. That is not possible. You cannot do anything. You cannot make even the body, what to speak of the soul. This is...
Dr. Patel: Modern scientists don't say that we can make the soul. Soul is permanent in every man.
Prabhupada: No, the rascals say, "We can create." So that rascal, number of that rascal is more. They are saying, bluffing, that "Now we shall create chemicals. We are trying." This is going on. Just this morning he was saying.
Dr. Patel: It is the theory of these people I think that...
Guest (4): Communists.
Dr. Patel: Communists.
Prabhupada: That means rascalism. Not a single soul has been created till now and these rascals are claiming that they are going... And they are scientists. We have to accept them as scientists. Just see. This is... Not only now. One gentleman, one big doctor, chemist, he has got Nobel Prize, he came to California and our Dr. Svarupa Damodara, he was in the also in the university, he's also doctor and chemist. So he was speaking on the chemical evolution. So he's my student, he challenged him, that, "If I give you chemicals, can you prepare life?" "That I cannot say."
Dr. Patel: Even a living cell of life...
Prabhupada: No, it was meeting. When Svarupa Damodara challenged him, that "Suppose I give you the chemicals, right chemicals. Can you prepare a life?" Then he said, "That I cannot say." Why? Why do you say nonsense?
Dr. Patel: But their definition of life is very meager. They say that life is a chemical imbalance, a state of chemical imbalance. That is wrong. Life is something higher than...
Prabhupada: Therefore these chemiststhey are predominatingso how it is possible to take their version? Ayi. Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] ...a simple version of Vaisnava.
Jaya. (someone else comes) Wherefrom you are coming?
Devotee (2): From London.
Prabhupada: Oh. You are Englishman?
Devotee (2): Yes.
Prabhupada: Stay here. We want some Englishmen. (laughter) No. We want Englishmen, Australian, Canadian, because they have no visa problem.
Dr. Patel: American will have no visa problem very soon.
Guru dasa: Why?
Dr. Patel: There is no question why. We'll understand it.
Prabhupada: No, no, that's all right. So the visa problem is a great problem for us because in India for conducting our movement, we have to import the white men. Our Indians, they are not joining. So that is a great problem for me. They have to come, and they have to go again. And each time, coming and going, ten thousand rupees. And that is happening at least for hundred cases every year. Ten thousand, hundred times. Just imagine. This is my economic problem. Therefore I'm asking, "If you are Englishman, please stay." Because here, in India, they will see that "The white man dancing, let us see." They will never join. They are busy with their own affairs. They will advise, "Do this, do that," but they will never come. This is my position. Practical. Therefore I'm begging the Englishmen, the Canadians, the Australians, "Please come and stay." Because huge establishment, who will manage? I am managing with them, but there is economic question. For each person I have to spend ten thousand rupees at least and such hundred case... This is the position. The Indians are not interested. They are not interested.
Dr.Patel: You are firing everyone, so they run away. (laughter)
Prabhupada: What can be done? This is real position.
Dr. Patel: Only I am a fool, not running away. (laughter) He says, Prabhupada, "You rascals..."
Prabhupada: Everyone may be a fool, but if he continues to remain a fool, that is very bad. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: A fool is a fool always. He cannot change his...
Prabhupada: More or less everyone of us, we are fool, mudha. Krsna has stated mudha, mudha. Na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. He has chastised like anything. Tan aham dvisatah kruran ksipamy ajasram asubhan [Bg. 16.19]. So anyone who's not taking to Krsna consciousness, he is within these categories: duskrtina, naradhama, mudha, mayayapahrta-jnana, asuram bhavam asritah. This Krsna consciousness is Indian movement, but na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah. They are not taking seriously. That is the position. It is our movement. Krsna came in India and because India is so glorified place, punya-bhumi, even the demigods they desire. Not India, this planet, Bharatavarsa. Formerly, the whole Bharatavarsa means whole planet. Anyway, for the time it is now minimized. So it is not ordinary land. So our men, they are not interested in such great movement. How much regrettable it is. And who are they? Krsna says, na mam prapadyante mudhah duskrtino naradhamah [Bg. 7.15]. If you speak the truth, then you take the quotation of Krsna. Now every Indian should take part in this great movement. Every Indian. That is the Caitanya Mahaprabhu's order.
It is para-upakara. India's business is para-upakara. India's business is not exploitation. That is Indian. And para-upakara means not that daridra-narayana bhojana, no. Para-upakara means to give him knowledge, for want of which he is suffering. That is real...
mamaivamso jiva-loke
jiva-bhutah sanatanah
manah sasthanindriyani
prakrti-sthani karsati
[Bg. 15.7]
This is his real suffering. He's part and parcel of God. Qualitatively, he's as good as God, but he's suffering. Why he's suffering? Manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7]. He has come to this material world, prakrti, and or mental concoction he's creating his plan and struggling for existence. This is real suffering. So Krsna consciousness movement means to save him from real suffering. That Indians should take very seriously and join this movement, and para-upakara, people need it all over the world. Otherwise, why these young boys, they have joined me? They are finding something, relief by this movement. Otherwise, what business he has got to join with an Indian, poor Indian. I went to their country with forty rupees, that's all. So they are finding something relief. And actually it is relief. So our Indians are not interested. India is supposed to be the, what is called? Benefactor or...?
Dr. Patel: Deva-bhumi, deva-bhumi.
Prabhupada: Yes.
But this knowledge is here. Huh?
Dr. Patel: So they came, and we are there in the knowledge already. (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Time hogya? (?)You can sit down here? No?
Giriraja: I feel this is important.
Prabhupada: All right. So, sab bharata-varsi, young men, jitna hai. (Hindi) movement (Hindi) seriously. It is not ordinary movement. Cheating movement naiye. This is real movement. Krsna, what Krsna is speaking, what Caitanya Mahaprabhu is speaking, that is not cheating. That is real solution of the problem. So we have taken the business of Krsna, Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So every intelligent person, intelligent young man... Now we have got... We have got everywhere, but especially now in Bombayit is important citywe have constructed this. We can keep at least five hundred, six hundred men in these buildings. But who is coming? Nobody's coming.
Dr. Patel: If they all come then it will be difficult for you.
Prabhupada: Then let them come first of all. (laughter) There is no "if." There is sufficient place. Come. But nobody's coming. They want to see, "Let these white men come and we see." That's all. "We see the fun." This is going on. They are coming. They are disgusted. But we are not disgusted. That is the difficulty. Therefore I was speaking to this boy, "You are Englishman, you have come." It's a problem now in Mayapura, here. And the government is after them as soon as three months pass. "Get out, get out, get out, get out." Then how shall I conduct my business? A big, big establishment. This is another problem. But Krsna is doing His own business. But practically seeing. This is India's business. Bharata-bhumite manusya-janma haila yara [Cc. Adi 9.41]. Manusya-janma, not the cats and dogs, but those who have taken the human form. It is their business. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, bharata-bhumite manusya-janma haila yara [Cc. Adi 9.41], janma sarthaka-First of all, make your life successful by understanding the philosophy. Then, janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara, preach this philosophy all over the world. That is para-upakara. So actually that is being done. They understand, they are understanding this philosophy. There is struggle now in foreign countries. There is opposition now. Who will explain what is the opposition?
Giriraja: Today we just got a new package from New York from this boy. And some of the parents were charging that we were kidnapping and mentally imprisoning their children by making them devotees. Because from their point of view their children were lost to our movement. So...
Prabhupada: He's a lost child. His father and mother came to me and mother was crying. I said, "So take your son." And the son will not go. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: You are washing away their brains.
Prabhupada: (laughing) So they are charging like that. What is the new charge? Huh?
Srutasrava: Srila Prabhupada, they are saying "mind control."
Prabhupada: (laughing) "Mind control." Yes.
Srutasrava: Srila Prabhupada, so many, all the big scholars in America, all the big famous scholars, they have put together one petition saying how authorized our Krsna consciousness movement is. And they are willing to come forward now. If any time they want some papers in the court-room to show how bona fide our movement is, how we are actually not brainwashers and mind-controlled, there are these scholars in America, they have pledged their support.
Giriraja: There was a meeting of four big scholars at Harvard University, it's like the Oxford of America. And one famous theologian named Cox...
Prabhupada: Harvey Cox?
Giriraja: Yes and Kirtanananda Swami. His books are very famous. And they have brought up this issue, freedom of religion, that this is a bona fide religious movement and we should have freedom to worship. Then there's also a letter from a member of the World Fellowship of Religion and he is also saying that he takes this very seriously and very grave that such a bona fide movement is not being allowed to practice their religion freely. And then there's one Professor Sharma at one American University, and he is...
Prabhupada: Sharma or Sukla?
Giriraja: No, another one. Not Sukla. And this Sharma is saying that he has personal experience that this is a bona fide movement and that the American public in general may not know, but A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami is one of the renowned writers of translations of Vedic translations and commentaries of Vedic literature. [break] And then Adi-kesava Maharaja is going with a swami? Chandra Swami, some Indian swami in America. He's going with Adi-kesava Maharaja to meet the new President of the United States on January 27th.
Prabhupada: He's going to see?
Giriraja: Yes, Jimmy Carter. On January 20th he will become the next President. So Adi-kesava Maharaja and this one Indian sannyasi, they are going to make a representation to the new President.
Prabhupada: Who is that Indian swami?
Srutasrava: His name is Chandra Swami.
Prabhupada: Chandra Swami? So why...?
Guest (4): He's a young man.
Prabhupada: He must be Mayavadi. He's taking advantage of this. He's a Mayavadi.
Guest (4): He's a man who is following Tantric.
Prabhupada: So what is this nonsense. This should not be... He should not accompany. He's taking advantage of it.
Guest (4): He's also directly associated with the Prime Minister, this young man. Chandra Swami.
Dr. Patel: The Prime Minister is the greatest Mayavadi.
Prabhupada: Mayayapahrta-jnana. Mayavadi means maya has taken his knowledge. mayayapahrta-jnana. 99% they are Mayavadis.
Guest (4): Swamiji, what about missionaries who are working in India who are coming from abroad and they are actually exploiting. If they put a charge against our institution, well, we can definitely say that we are motivating the intellect to take into the higher stage of life. Here the missionaries who come, they go in the backward areas and those who are not learned, those who are practically uneducated... I mean, their mission is to convert them in Christianity. You see, that charge is rather more grave than the particular one which they have leveled against us. You see, we can put that argument, isn't it? How many Hindus are converted into Christianity. We are not converting them, we are just...
Prabhupada: Our case is not that we are going to convert one Hindu to Christian, or Christian to Hindu. There is no meaning. Our is, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Even if you are Hindu, even you are Muslim, you are Christian, kick it out. That is our movement. We do not advocate that "You are Christian, you become Hindu." Or "You are Hindu, you become..." They are taking like that. But our movement is not that.
Guest (4): That's what I say.
Prabhupada: Our movement is, either you are Hindu, either you are Muslim, either you are Christian, you kick out all this. Sarva-dharman parityajya. Simply you become surrendered to Krsna or God. This is our... And anyone who can do that, he is first-class religious. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [SB 1.2.6]. Adhoksaja, God's name is Adhoksaja. You cannot see Him beyond your material perception. So if you are trained up to surrender to God, then you are religious. We do not say that you become Hindu or Muslim or Christian or this or that. We do not say so.
Dr. Patel: But all Christians, if they truly are... I mean Hindus, that Christ...
Prabhupada: No, either he become Hindus. That does not mean the Hindus are perfect. We do not mean that. Even if he becomes Hindu, what is the benefit? No benefit.
Dr. Patel: No. Even he becomes a Christian, there is no benefit.
Prabhupada: I say any religious stamp, material, there is no benefit. Therefore Krsna said sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. You have to give up all these designations. And bhakti, love of Godhead, or service to God, begins when you are relieved from these designations. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. When becoming God conscious, you become completely purified, then your devotional life begins. And so long you are entangled with this designation, there is no question of devotional service. Either you Hindu or Muslim or Christian, it doesn't matter. So our business is not that, that we convert a Hindu to a Christian or a Christian to a Hindu. That is not our business. They are thinking, because we dress like that, with tilaka, with mala, they think Hindu. But it's not our business to convert the Christians to become Hindus, as all other missionaries, they are doing. They are trying to increasing the number of Christian or Hindus. So our... There is no question of increasing. It is very difficult to accept.
Krsna consciousness is not so easy. Out of millions and millions of persons, one becomes perfect. And out of millions of perfect, one may understand Krsna. That is the version of Krsna. So Krsna consciousness is not so easy that everyone, each one will become Krsna consciousness. It is very difficult. But by the grace of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, by this Hare Krsna mantra, this is helping. Otherwise, it is very difficult task. Very difficult. It is recommended in the sastra, kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply the Kali-yuga, kaler dosa-nidhe rajann asti hy eko mahan gunah. This is the version of Sukadeva Gosvami. He described the faulty ocean of this Kali-yuga and at last he encouraged that, "Maharaja, there is one opportunity in this age." Kaler dosa-nidhe rajann asti hy eko mahan gunah. Very great opportunity. What is that? Kirtanad eva krsnasya. Simply by chanting Hare Krsna mantra, mukta-sangah param vrajet. He becomes liberated and he goes back to home. This opportunity we are preaching. That's all. Otherwise, to understand Krsna is not so easy thing. This opportunity, kirtanad eva krsnasya. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu also recommends, harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam kalau nasty eva [Cc. Adi 17.21]. Otherwise, in this age, very difficult. [break]
Guest (4): During the Kumbha-mela we are having our rama-ksetra to serve the sadhus directly. We always started our camp on 21st December to last after tenth of February. If Maharaja and all other devotees, they can definitely offer free arrangements over there because we have got the best camp. We have got the best camp.
Prabhupada: Why should we spend for our camp? (laughter)
Guest (4): We are just on the bed of the river, far away from the mela, which is about three, four... We have our asramas at various places, you know.
Prabhupada: What is this philosophy? What is the philosophy?
Guest (4): Philosophy is bhajana of the Sankaracarya.
Prabhupada: But whether you recognize Krsna...
Dr. Patel: Yes sir, he was our guru. We have published a book from the Calcutta University, so just take your remise. Leave the book for you.
Prabhupada: Oh, this is for me? Bhetiye, bhetiye.(?) Vedanta philosophy (Hindi) Let us discuss. What is Vedanta philosophy? Let us discuss something. You belong to this camp, so what is Vedanta?
Guest (4): Adi Sankaracarya's preaching, actually defining God as what he thought.
Prabhupada: Then what is the meaning? Everyone can think of God according to his whim. You say, "As he thought." That is not standard.
Guest (4): So, what he describes...
Prabhupada: No, first of all, let us... Whether if you think of God in your own way, is that valid or not?
Guest (4): Because he has given a thought to it you know. He has thought over it.
Prabhupada: Anything, might be the first-class thought, but do you think that any man can think of God and create God? Do you think it is all right?
Guest (4): Well we are guided by those who have given a thought to it and who have meditated actually.
Prabhupada: You said that "As he thought."
Guest (4): Yes.
Prabhupada: So God is unlimited and you are limited. So how you can think of God?
Guest (4): You see I'll just quote one of his stanzas which reveal...
Prabhupada: I am talking...
Guest (4): I understand your point of view, but I'm just, to your holiness, in the last stanza of his advaita philosophy, he says, aham nirvikalpo nirakara rupa vibhur apya sarvatra sarvendriyani sadame sama...(?)
Prabhupada: Who says "aham"?
Guest (4): Sankaracarya.
Prabhupada: That means a person is thinking of God. So that is my point, whether an individual person can think of God and ascertain that "Here is God."
Guest (4): He comes to that particular conclusion though, your holiness, he says that aham nirvikalpa nirakara rupa...
Prabhupada: So nirakara... If you are speaking, then how he can become nirakara?
Guest (4): He actually defines what prevails in the universe, what is that element which governs us.
Prabhupada: Let us just discuss from the point. As you say, that I think and I speak, so when you speak, when you think, whether you are nirakara or akara.
Guest (4): He defines, ultimately, after all thinking...
Prabhupada: I am asking you.
Guest (4): He has come to that conclusion.
Prabhupada: I'm asking you that when you think, when you... What is that other thing? Speak. So can anybody who is nirakara, he can think and speak? Is there any experience? So what is the use of talking like that?
Dr. Patel: Thinking is done by the mind and mind is not soul.
Prabhupada: Yes. So, no, whatever it may be. If I think, if I speak, I am akara. I'm not nirakara. And that is for everyone. This is contra...
Guest (4): What is that "everyone"?
Prabhupada: What it may be. First come to the platform of understanding. As soon as I think, I speak, this speaking, I'm thinking, is not coming from nirakara.
Guest (4): But what is that "I"?
Prabhupada: I means, what do you mean by I? I am person, you are person. When I say, "I say," you say that we are person. So how you can say nirakara? It must be common knowledge. When I say, "I speak," that is not nirakara. How it can be nirakara? It is contradictory.
Guest (4): It is not contradictory.
Prabhupada: Yes, it is contradictory. Unless you have got a personality, you cannot speak, you cannot think. So how it is nirakara? That is my first point. Krsna says, "aham." He is person. We worship Krsna as person. He says, aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. That "aham," He's person. We are accepting Krsna as person because he says aham adir hi devanam.
He's person. Krsna never said that "I am nirakara." Where He has said? Can you quote any verse? When He says nirakara, He says like this, maya tatam idam sarvam [Bg. 9.4]. Maya, by Me. Tatam idam sarvam, everywhere, by My energy. Just like the sun-god. The sun-god is within the sun globe. His bodily luster is coming. The sun-god can say, "The sunshine is my bodily exposition." That is reasonable. Just like a big light, it has got exposition. Similarly... And that is confirmed in the sastra. Yasya prabha prabhavatah [Bs. 5.40]. Yasya, the person.
So when Krsna said, maya tatam idam, maya means, "I am there." But "I" is existing. That "I", person, is existing. Just like if I say that "It is I who has expanded, I am expanded all over the world by this Hare Krsna movement," that's a fact. But that does not mean I am not a person. If I say that "I am, this Hare Krsna movement means I am, I am spread by spreading this movement," that's a fact. But does it mean that I am imperson? That is, Krsna says, maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta-murtina. Avyakta. So the same example we can give you that in all my branches, 110 branches, they worship me as their guru. Mat-sthani sarva-bhutani [Bg. 9.4]. "Everything is existing on My management." Naham tesu avasthitah. "But I am not there." It is a fact. All these 110 branches, they are going on under my direction, but not that I am present everywhere. But that does not mean I am not a person. So the supreme, the supreme manager, the supreme controller, how he can be nirakara? That is my first question.
Dr. Patel: He means to say, sir, that the mayakara is not there. But the divyakara is there as we say. Let us understand him.
Prabhupada: No, He... Nirakara is there. So far His management power is going on, that is nirakara. But that nirakara does not mean that I am also nirakara. That is the defect. The Supreme Person, it is confirmed by the sastra. The Absolute Truth is person ultimately.
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]
So those who are simply captivated by the Brahman, nirakara, they are in the, just in the beginning of knowledge. Their knowledge is not perfect. That is not Vedanta. That is knowledge, but it is not anta. And Vedanta means the ultimate knowledge. And that is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]. If one does not know Krsna, he's not a Vedantist. That is my point . He does not know what is Vedanta. The veda-anta means Krsna. Anta means the last word. The last word is brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. Bhagavan. Unless one goes to the Supreme Lord Bhagavan, Krsna, he's not a Vedantist. That is my point. Veda means knowledge.
Dr. Patel: Sri Sankaracarya also said bhaja govindam bhaja govindam bhaja govindam...
Prabhupada: That's all right. One who says... We are studying from our common sense. Veda means knowledge and anta means the last. And Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]. So unless you know Krsna, there is no question of Vedanta. There may be Veda...
Guest (4): Knowledge.
Prabhupada: Ha, knowledge. But that is not the ultimate knowledge. The ultimate knowledge will come when you surrender to Krsna. That is said in the Bhagavad-gita. Bahunam janmanam ante [Bg. 7.19]. Therefore all these so-called Vedantists, they will have to wait for many millions of years to understand Krsna. That is the position. Bahunam janmanam ante. And if he's actually in knowledge, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is the sign. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. That is wanted. So Vedantist, so-called Vedantist, we do not approve them because they have not come to the ultimate point of knowledge. This is clear. Veda means knowledge, anta, anta means the last point. So unless you come to that last point of knowledge, that is not Vedanta. That may be Veda, but it is not Vedanta. Vedanta means mam prapadyate. Now, whether you approve these statements? Vedanta means to know Krsna. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedanta-krd veda-vid ca aham.
Dr. Patel: I am the main meaning of the Vedas.
Prabhupada: Yes, He is the... So He can speak what is Vedanta. And unless one accepts this Vedanta, he's not a Vedantist. Therefore some of our Vaisnava friends, they have given me this title, Bhaktivedanta. In 1947, something, they, purposefully, they gave me the title that Vedanta means bhakti. "So you take this title, Bhaktivedanta." And we are preaching this Vedanta, that the ultimate platform of Veda, knowledge, is to understand Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So he's person, he's speaking. So not that the Mayavadis, they take that paratattva is the nirakara-brahman. But that is not paratattva. Here the person says mattah parataram nanyat kincid asti dhananjaya [Bg. 7.7]. So if you have to accept Krsna as the supreme authority, then Vedanta means, He says also, to know Krsna. Otherwise, it is not anta, it may be middle, it may be beginning, but not anta.
Dr. Patel: Sir, Sankaracarya has made so many abstructs (obstructs?) for this bhakti. And I mean to follow it...
Prabhupada: No, no, I'm talking of Krsna. There are many other talkers. We are concerned because we are Krsna conscious. Krsna conscious means whatever Krsna says, we accept. That is our philosophy. We may be fools and rascals, doesn't matter. But we accept what Krsna says, that's all. Like a child, he's a child, he may be a fool. But when the father says, "My dear child, this is called microphone," and if the child says, "This is microphone," that is correct. Because he takes the word of the father who knows things. He may be child. So our business is like that. We don't claim ourself to be very learned, very advanced. We are fools and rascals. [break] "How can I become guru?" One may say. "I am not so learned, I am not so..." "No, no, you haven't got to bother. Still you can become guru." "How?" Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. If you simply repeat what Krsna has said, then you become guru. That's all. So our business is that. We are guru not that because we are very learned, so-called Vedantist. No. We are lowest of the lowest. But we are faithful to the words of Krsna. That's all. We have no other business. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has ordered, yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. Bas. Very easy. And that is being effective. Now because I am carrying these words of Krsna throughout the whole world, perhaps I have done the best service than the combined so much Vedantists. All the Vedantists of India could not do that. That's a fact. How it has become possible? Because we are simply speaking what Krsna has spoken. That's all. Yare dekha tare kaha krsna... That's all. I do not claim that I am Sanskrit scholar, I am this big man, that man, no. Whatever books I have written, only about this-Krsna. In our book in every page you will find Krsna, Krsna, Krsna. My Guru Maharaja, if we used to write some article, so we wanted to show him how it is written. So he was very busy. So somebody would read and Guru Maharaja would say, "How many times he has said 'Krsna'?" (laughter) If he finds that in every page there is Krsna, it is all right. That's all. (laughter) So we are making Vedantist, "How many times he chants Krsna?" If he chants always Krsna, yes, he's Vedantist. That's all. Bas. Because sastra says, kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. That is being effective. These boys, their forefathers or their father, grandfather never knew what is Krsna. But kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet. So unless there is Krsna consciousness there is no question of Vedanta. That is my point. (Hindi) That is real Vedanta. And the Vedanta says also... If you actually read Vedanta, what is the beginning of Vedanta? Boliye? What is the beginning?
Dr. Patel: Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1].
Prabhupada: This is not Vedanta. This is Isopanisad.
Devotee: Janmady asya yatah.
Prabhupada: Janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. Athato brahma jijnasa. This is Vedanta. Yes. That is Vedanta. Brahma-sutra. This is Vedanta. So this life is meant for Vedanta. Athato brahma jijnasa. And what is Brahman? Janmady asya yatah. Brahman means the Supreme Soul of everything. And Krsna replies, aham sarvasya prabhavah [Bg. 10.8]. Then Vedanta study... I'm inquiring what is the ultimate source of everything and here is the answer. If you don't believe, that is another thing. You go on talking like anything. That is another thing. But answer is there. Aham adir hi devanam [Bg 10.2]. Aham sarvasya prabhavo mattah sarvam pravartate [Bg. 10.8]. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. So we have to go to such mahatma who knows vasudevah sarvam iti. Then it will be all right. If we want to waste time, that is another thing. I am very glad to see you. So I wish that you may spread real Vedanta. That is essence of Vedas. Vedanta means the essence of Vedas. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah [Bg. 15.15]. Light is, of course there is light in the sunshine and there is light in the sun-globe, but the source of light is coming from the sun-god. Just like electric bulb, thousand power. So the illumination is also light and the source of illumination, the bulb, that is also light. And what is that? Filament within? That is also light. But what is the anta light? Not this illumination. Similarly Krsna is the original source of light. Yasya prabha prabhavatah [Bs. 5.40]. It is confirmed in The Brahma-samhita. So Brahman knowledge is partial Krsna knowledge. Paramatma knowledge, partial Krsna knowledge. And Krsna knowledge is perfect. So partial knowledge is also knowledge but Vedanta means full knowledge. So unless you come to that point it is not Vedanta. The another example is just like from a distant place you see one mountain. You'll see just like something cloud. It is not cloud. It is the mountain, but because you are seeing from a distant place you see it is something cloud. If you go little further, you'll see something green, and when you actually go to the mountain you'll find so many trees, so many living entities, so many everything full of varieties. The same mountain, absolute knowledge, advaya-jnana, tattva-jnana. If we accept tattva-jnana from distant place it is Brahman. If you see that tattva-jnana still nearer, then it is Paramatma. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese 'rjuna [Bg. 18.61]. And when you go directly to the person, just like we are talking face to... That is possibility. And that possibility Krsna comes to show us. That is indicated by Sukadeva Gosvami that,
When Krsna was playing with His cowherd boys friend, so Sukadeva Gosvami said, "Who are these boys who are playing with Krsna who is the source of brahma-sukha?" Brahma-sukhanubhutya. These boys are playing with another boy known as Krsna. He is the source of brahma-sukhanubhuti. And dasyam gatanam para-daivatena. Those who are devotees, for them He is the Supreme Lord. And mayasritanam nara-darakena. And those who are under the influence of maya, they are seeing He's an ordinary boy. But whatever He may be, these boys who are playing with him, sakam vijahruh krta-punya-punjah [SB 10.12.11]. After many, many lives acquisition of pious activities, now he has got this opportunity to play with this boy, the source of brahma-sukha. Ittham brahma-sukhanubhutya. They are not playing with ordinary child. He is the source of brahma-sukha. This is the statement of Sukadeva Gosvami. So if we come to Krsna and Krsna is personally presenting Himself, that is Vedanta. Otherwise, bahunam janmanam... We have come to that point, but if we neglect, then it will take many, many births to come to that point. Because that is the ultimate. Unless we come to that point, to understand Krsna, there is still scarcity of knowledge. And Krsna says that "When there is scarcity of knowledge, then I appear." Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. When the scarcity of knowledge is polluted... Not only scarcity, but it is polluted. Glanih. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanih. This is dharma, to come to the perfect knowledge. Human being must come to the perfect knowledge, because this is a boon. Not the cats and dogs can understand. Human being. So when there is glanih, they are accepting the preliminary beginning of knowledge as the perfect knowledge, that is glanih. Yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. Paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca... [Bg. 4.8]. These things are there. Dharma-samsthapanarthaya. To establish real religious system. Sambhavami yuge yuge. What is that real religious system? Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg. 18.66].
Dr. Patel: Bhagavata-dharma.
Prabhupada: No, this is real dharma. Bhagavata-dharma is real, Bhagavan. Bhagavata-dharma means in a relationship with Bhagavan. So if you do not know Bhagavan then what is this knowledge? That is the defect. All dharmas, there may be Christian dharma, Hindu dharma, this dharma, that dharma. Ask any one of them, "Do you know Bhagavan?" "Zero." "Nirakara." Nirakara means zero. When you come to the right point, zero. No substance. Therefore they have got this prayer, nirvisesa-sunyavadi-pascatya-desa-tarine. This is going on. Sunyavadi and nirvisesa. Nirakaravadi. We say... There are so many points. We say that "the Supreme Father," the Christians say. So how the Supreme Father can be nirakara? We have got experience, my father has akara. His father has got akara, his father has got akara. So if you go to the Supreme Father, now how He is nirakara? I may not have seen my great grandfather but that does not mean he's nirakara. So I may not have seen God but if God is Supreme Father how he can be nirakara? (Hindi)
Guest (2): Lord Jesus Christ, the son of God, he's a person. His father must be person.
Prabhupada: Yes. This is common sense. If son of God, if the son has form, how the father hasn't got form? What do you say? I'm asking you. This English boy. How the father can be formless? Christ says that he's the son of God. Is it not?
Englishman: He said he was, yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. But he's a person. So how the father is imperson? What kind of father?
Dr. Patel: Sir, instead of calling person, we say he's an individual. Person means this body.
Prabhupada: Person is individual.
Dr. Patel: Individual. So God is an individual then?
Prabhupada: No, person. God is a person. Individual means person. Individual person.
Dr. Patel: Everything person is body.
Prabhupada: Body or no body, that is separate thing. But when you say individual, he is a person. And it is explained also in the Bhagavad... Kleso 'dhikataras tesam avyaktasakta-cetasam [Bg. 12.5]. Those who are inclined to the impersonal feature... God has got that impersonal feature. So they have to undergo more troubles to understand Him. And after going through troublesome business, bahunam janmanam, many, many births, then he understands, "Oh, vasudevah sarvam, here is the person." Everywhere this disease is very prominent, that God is impersonal. Perhaps this is the only movement in the world that's preaching, "No, God is person."
Dr. Patel: All Vaisnavas believe in the personal God. This is only.
Prabhupada: Yes. Bring some prasada. Distribute. [break]
Guest (4): ...camp. Let your group come and stay in our camp.
Prabhupada: No, no, we have already organized. We have also a organized camp. No, no, I would have saved this expenditure by joining your camp, but...
Guest (5): There is no question of expenditure. We welcome you and your institution over there. We have an arrangement for about two hundred tents and we have got enough food to offer you, quality food, which you won't find in the whole of the Kumbha-mela. Because originally...
Prabhupada: But suppose if we speak in this way, then you'll not agree. (laughter) Real food is finished. Only puris, kacuris... (laughter)
Guest (5): We'll have more real food when you come over there.
Prabhupada: No, if you do not object our preaching like that, then I can go.
Guest (5): Yes, definitely.
Prabhupada: Whether your swamiji will like that?
Guest (5): No, of course. Because actually there is nothing against your preaching. Otherwise, I would not have come.
Prabhupada: No, this is a contradictory. We say God is person, and you say nirakara. That is the difference. Why God should be nirakara?
Guest (5): Ultimately, it is the...
Prabhupada: Ultimately, you say nirakara. We say ultimately akara. And that is the difference, gulf of difference. That is going on. We shall worship Radha-Krsna there. With our arati, just like we are doing in the temple. Perhaps your swamiji will not like this. And as soon as there is some contradiction...
Guest (5): No. Our main theme at the Kumbha-mela is to speak direct to sadhus who come from Himalayas because mainly since 150 years this institution is serving them at Hardwar and Prayaga. They don't walk down to Ujjain or Nasik. Mainly they come at Hardwar and Allahabad.
Prabhupada: So if you kindly give us a camp, but we shall preach this.
Guest (5): You are at liberty. There is no ban on it. Actually, you see we, as we said, we are serving the humanity directly.
Prabhupada: That's all right. That all right. Nice. But sometimes, if somebody differs, that is not very palatable .
Guest (5): No, no, Swamiji. There is no... We welcome you there. I told Mangala when she came that we are not preaching a particular thing. We are going there to serve the people who come who are intellectual.
Prabhupada: For spiritual enlightenment. That's nice.
Guest (5): Yes. And practically since many, many years our camp is considered as one of the best from all point of view. Hygienic arrangements, food quality. We don't use dalda or anything. We have the pure ghee. There are people who give with heart.
Prabhupada: Suppose if you give us one camp, so how many men we can provide there?
Guest (5): At least 50 to 100 people we can accommodate.
Prabhupada: No.
Guest (5): Or if you want more...
Prabhupada: No, no. Our men will not be fifty to so much. Suppose for us, if you spare one camp, so how many men we can accommodate there. Because...
Guest (5): In one tent at least we can accommodate six people. Easily. With a drawing room and two bedrooms. We have the military tents. And just on the bed of the river.
Prabhupada: So how many men you are expecting?
Giriraja: Fourteen.
Prabhupada: Fourteen. [break]
Dr. Patel: ...you can serve how many people?
Guest (5): Each tent we'll accommodate with all sanitary conditions. We have in one tent, which is quite a big one, six people easily. With a drawing and two beds.
Prabhupada: So at least three camps we shall require.
Guest (5): Three or five. Whatever. Swamiji, number is immaterial.
Prabhupada: Accha. So why don't you do that?
Dr. Patel: One for yourself and three to us. So four.
Guest (5): I can even reserve for your institution six, eight, ten. Number is immaterial.
Prabhupada: Then why don't you take?
Dr. Patel: That is very good. (Hindi)
Guest (5): Number is immaterial. We have the special boats plying from our camp because what our principle is (indistinct) away from the Mela, in seclusion. Now there is a bhaga, what is known as a munshi-bhaga (?) and since last 200 years all the director sadhus, they reside there because it is away from...
Prabhupada: Munshi-bhaga that is...
Guest (5): Yushi. Yushi.(?) So as it is away from Mela there is no hustle and bustle of the Mela. It's a secluded place. And from there we ply our own boats. We have about six, eight boats that take you for snana. In the early morning at four o'clock we have the snana in the Ganges itself near our camp because...
Prabhupada: Confluence, confluence.
Guest (5): On the spot. We are in the bed of the river and this plot is reserved since last 200 years for us from the government when the Mela comes. Purna-kumbha, ardha-kumbha. And the boats ply from our spot downstream at Prayaga on the sangam. That we take them during the day according to the naksatra.
Prabhupada: These gentlemen offering, why not take advantage?
Guru dasa: If it's away from the Mela there won't be so much preaching there.
Guest (5): People will come to you when they know you are there. There is no need to go. (laughter)
Guest (6): You can still have a small place in Mela itself.
Guest (5): That publicity will go like this. Don't worry about it. When the sun shines nobody says that the sun has risen. It has risen.
Guru dasa: Vedantists say, but no one else...
Prabhupada: No, no, that's all right. So you take advantage of it. (everyone talking at once) Now is offering, you should... So immediately arrange for this. So (Hindi)
Guest (5): I'll telephone today and we'll make the arrangement at least for five to six, seven tents.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Then it will be very nice. We are willing to go there. And we must go there. It is Kumbha-mela. So if you give us five to six camps it will be very nice.
Guest (5): Even up to ten. You don't hesitate for the number.
Prabhupada: Thank you. He's so liberal. You are actually Brahman.(laughter) Brahman means unlimited.
Guest (5): Virat.
Prabhupada: Virat. Brhatyad, brnhanatya iti brahman.(?) Not only the largest, but increasing. That is Brahman. Brhatya brnghanatya.(?) I'm very much thankful to you. So you arrange immediately. (Hindi)
Guest (5): I will send a message today and you will let me know the date. They will come and receive you either at the Benares airport or here at Allahabad station. Because it's not far away from Allahabad.
Prabhupada: Yes, I know. I was in Allahabad for thirteen years.
Guest (5): I know.
Prabhupada: Yes. This Kumbha-mela we had every year.
Guest (5): First of all, you see, we have taken just near Yamuna bridge. As soon as the pilgrims come from various parts of the country we have got a...
Prabhupada: Yamuna bridge, there are two bridges.
Guest (5): Just near Yamuna bridge there is an institution which belongs to Bombay and that institution is reserved for us just to give a shelter first to people who come by rail.
Prabhupada: So take all these notes. We'll save so much money.
Guest (5): Transit camp.
Prabhupada: So immediately.
Guest (5): I'll come again, don't worry.
Prabhupada: Thank you very much. Now, distribute prasada.
Guest (5): Actually, you know, Swamiji, I have stayed over here whenever he used to come. He passed away in 1960.
Prabhupada: Who?
Guest (5): Our swamiji. He passed away at (indistinct) in 1960, 14th February. And he was very fond of Juhu since 1923. Whenever he was coming to Bombay.
Prabhupada: Juhu is very nice, I know.
Guest (5): But now the Juhu has lost its charm. I'm talking about 1923 up to '45. And he used to go deep in the sea up to two miles. He used to take us with him.
Prabhupada: That, one saintly person, what is his name?
Guest (5): He was a Punjabi body. And mostly he resided in Gujarat. Developed five of his institutions. One in Ooty and two on Nagada and Tapti and one is near Deoghar in Bihar.
Prabhupada: Bihar. Deoghar.
Guest (5): Yes. One we have got in Hardwar itself. We have got a nice asrama at Sapta Sarovara. I'll just show you one of his... Because Juhu, whenever he was in Bombay he was at Juhu always. [break] He was residing at M.C. Satwar, you know our Attorney General.
Prabhupada: He's Sindhi?
Guest (5): Punjabi.
Dr. Patel: He lived for 130 years.
Prabhupada: He's still living?
Dr. Patel: No, he died only five years back.
Guest (5): 1960. This must be one of... There was a crowd you know at M.C. Satwar's. M.C. Satwar had invited everybody from the high-court, all the judges. So he was just having a chant with them. "Swamiji, we would like to hear you, something." He said, "I am an uneducated man. What can I say?" This was in 1956 just four years before he passed away. Then he was thinking what to tell these guys. Just thinking for five, ten minutes. And then he spoke for two hours spellbound. Beautiful. He was about 6.4 inches in height.
Prabhupada: Real Punjabi. (laughter)
Guest (5): And the color of his skin was as pink as the petal of the rose. He was a dynamic personality also. And the command over the language was superb. Just Your Holiness is quoting the Sanskrit quotations, just like Swami Gangesvarananda, though he's a blind man. But you, he can quote from any chapter, any stanza, any couplet. He's also here at present. He's coming over there.
Prabhupada: No, he's my good friend.
Guest (5): Yes. We had a word about you with him long back. Before Your Holiness came to India.
Prabhupada: He likes me. (laughter)
Guest (5): Yes.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break]
Guest (6): She is my daughter-in-law.
Prabhupada: Accha. He's your son?
Guest (6): He's my son. He has just come day before from London to...
Prabhupada: You live in London?
Guest (6): No, he's studying. He's an executive with the German company over there via India this German firm. And she is my daughter.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) Everyone be happy and chant Hare Krsna. This is our... A good family. [break]
Dr. Patel: So his friend is my friend. (Everyone talking at once.) Swamiji says, he gave a good comparison about the bulbs Some bulbs have forty candles, some have twenty-five, some a thousand.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Jaya. So where is our Guru Maharaja?
Devotee: Gurudasa Swami?
Prabhupada: He went away?
Guest (5): So I'll see them again.
Prabhupada: All right, thank you. [break]
Guest (5): We'll arrange for, the best that we could.
Prabhupada: That's nice. Thank you very much.
Guest (5): Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [break] (Bengali) speaks Bengali very nice.
Guest (7): Yes, he lived in Shanti Niketan four years.
Prabhupada: So give him shelter. (end)

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