Audio
Prabhupada: This is yoga practice also. Yoga. Yoga means to concentrate the mind on a subject matter. So we should meditate upon Krsna. Mayy asakta. Then gradually you'll increase your attachment for Krsna. And that is the perfection of life. The perfection of life, the symbol is in Vrndavana. Because all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, they were very, very much attached to Krsna.
Mr. Sar: Attached to Krsna were.
Prabhupada: The cowherd boys, the girls, the elderly persons, the trees, the flowers, the land, the birds, the beasts, the cows-their center was Krsna. So we have to follow their footprints, how to... We have got already attachment.
Prabhupada: No, attachment we have got for material things. That we have to transfer. This is yoga practice.
Indian man (2): Has to be transferred.
Mr. Sar: Krsna. Correct. Correct. That is correct.
Passerby: Hello.
Indian man (1): Without any doubts.
Prabhupada: No... People are in doubt whether there is God, or "If there is God, He might have died by this time." So there are so many... [laughs] Yes. When I first went to USA, the theory was, "God is dead." But when I began to speak, they realized, "No, God is not dead. God is with Swamiji." They wrote. They wrote articles. So asamsayam...
Prabhupada: No, not realized.
Indian man (1): Experienced.
Mr. Sar: Yes, how it can be practically applied.
Prabhupada: Not that he has realized. He's God. He's already realized.
Dr. Patel: Matter of knowing, application.
Mr. Sar: Application.
Prabhupada: Practical.
Mr. Sar: Practical application.
Prabhupada: Just like practical science. If you want to pass B.A. examination, you have to appear for theoretical and practical, both.
Dr. Patel: Theory and practice both.
Indian man (1): No, that is theoretical.
Prabhupada: In this way, from Vedas, from guru, from saintly persons, we have to understand. Sadhu guru sastra vakya. Sadhu means who speaks strictly on the sastra. Guru also speaks strictly on sastra. Sastra is the media. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karatah, na siddhim avapno... [Bg 16.23]. Therefore we protest. Unless there is something mentioned in the authorized sastras, we don't accept it.
Prabhupada: Nityo nityanam. Plural number.
Dr. Patel: Plural, yes.
Indian man (1): No, no, that's right.
Prabhupada: Plural number.
Indian man (1): Permanent. Permanent, impermanent.
Prabhupada: Both of them permanent. No, no, no. Permanent... The jivas and the Supreme Lord, both of them are permanent, nitya. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20]. Just like nityah sasvato 'yam. It is said in the Bhagavad-gita, nityah sasvato 'yam. Eternal, always existing. And this material world has been described: asasvatah. Duhkhalayam asasvatah.
Dr. Patel: Cetanas cetananam.
Prabhupada: ...and the subordinate nityas, the living entities. So there must be one place also where this transaction takes place. Because this is anitya. This material world is anitya. So how the transaction between the nitya and nityanam can take place? Because the place is anitya. Therefore there must be a place which is nitya. There must be place. That is Vaikuntha dhama, spiritual world. So by practicing bhakti-yoga scientifically, by practical understanding, practical application, yogam yunjan mad-asrayah, either at the shelter...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Mr. Sar: No more knowledge is required.
Prabhupada: Yes, knowledge is perfect.
Mr. Sar: Final
Prabhupada: Final, yes.
This is also Upanisad. Yasmin vijnate. If you simply understand Krsna, then sarvam eva vijnatam bhavanti, then you have got full knowledge. And that is also stated in the Fourth Chapter: janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti... [Bg 4.9]. He becomes immediately liberated. Simply if you understand Krsna, what is Krsna, tattvatah, in truth, then you are..., your business is finished.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. To understand Krsna is not so easy job. First of all, so many millions and millions of living entities are there. They are not interested. They are just like animals: "Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy." Nobody's interested what is the success of life, siddhi. They do not know. They think, "If I..." Now, especially in this age, if you can eat sumptuously then it is siddhi, all siddhi. Yes. Udaram bharita, svartham udaram bharita. That just we see people are so lazy. If they can eat their daily food some way or other, begging, borrowing and stealing, just like animals...
Prabhupada: Parayanah. So they think, "Now my day's business is finished. Now I have eaten." And daksyam kutumba-bharanam. And if one man can maintain a family of four, five men, "Oh, he's Maharaja Daksa." Maharaja Daksa, you know? He was a great personality. He was performing yajnas. So this is Kali-yuga. Even they will not be able to maintain a wife, a few children. There is no shelter. I have seen in..., all these things in Western countries. They have no fixed up. Just like animals. The animal also loitering in the street or in the jungle; they are loitering in a great jungle, a great city, that's all.
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore the Mayavadis cannot understand. Although they have come to the point of siddha, still they cannot understand. Yatatam api siddhanam. They are siddhas because they have understood that "I am not this body. Aham brahmasmi." This much they have understood. But still they cannot understand Krsna. Yatatam api siddhanam. Although they are trying...
Prabhupada: So when one has come to this knowledge perfectly, that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul, aham brahmasmi," that is brahma-bhuta stage. So, so after brahma-bhuta [SB 4.30.20] stage, there are so many other things. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kaṅksati, samah sarvesu bhutesu [Bg 18.54].
Dr. Patel: [laughs] You came out with that.
Dr. Patel: Again, we are not [indistinct].
Prabhupada: It is not that...
Mr. Sar: Both are equal.
Prabhupada: Both are equal.
Mr. Sar: Either poor or rich.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Sar: Devotee's equal, whether poor or rich.
Mr. Sar:
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes, so now the study, first study, begins from material point of view: Wherefrom the sky came? How the sky came into existence? First of all sky. Then, from sky there is sound. Then from sound there is air. From air there is... Along with these creations... The sky creation means the air creation also, the reception of the sound. So in this way it is all described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam very nicely, how creation took place. Then, ultimately, we come to the land, where all the qualities of other elements are there. There is sound. There is touch. There is vision. There is smell. Everything is there. So... And the subtle matters: mind, citta, intelligence, then buddh..., intelligence. Then false ego. This is... At the present moment, everyone is thinking in the bodily concept of life: "I am American." "I am Indian." "I am brahmana." "I am ksatriya." This is false ego. He's not neither of them, because he's spirit soul, a different identity. So these, how the subtle mind, intelligence are working, one should know. How transmigration of the soul takes place? By the action of mind, intelligence and ego. They do not know. There is no such science. There are so many universities all over the world, but who is studying all these things? The psychologists, they have studied a little more about thinking, feeling and willing. That's all. But they do not know how he is working, how he is carrying the subtle soul to other body. That they do not know.
Indian man (2): Why do you not explain that?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Indian man (2): Why do you not explain that about subtle being carried forward?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: That is going to come now.
Prabhupada: Subtle body... Just like your body at night is on the bed, but you are carried by the thinking, feeling, intelligence to somewhere else. Is it not? So how are you are carried? You are actually lying on the bed. [aside:] Hare Krsna. It is carried by the subtle body. Similarly, death means that this body stops working. But the subtle mind... Exactly in the same way. Just as while you are sleeping this gross body has stopped to work, but the subtle body is working.
Dr. Patel: But that does not work in deep sleep.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Dr. Patel: In deep sleep it does not work, no?
Prabhupada: This sleep means temporary. Again the subtle mind, intelligence, come back. So death means no more coming back. It goes elsewhere. That is death. Is it clear? Eh?
Lilavati: Simply forget?
Prabhupada: Eh?
Lilavati: The subtle body...
Prabhupada: Yes, you forget. [aside:] Hare Krsna. Jayo. You forget. When you dream, you forget that you have got this gross body and you are the father of such and such or mother of such and such.
Dr. Patel: Because this is all due to mind only.
Prabhupada: Yes. The mind, mind forgets. The subtle body works. Similarly, we are dying daily. That is also death.
Prabhupada: Nitya pralaya. But... When... Now, because the body is fit, therefore we come again to enjoy with the body, ksetra. We come to the ksetra. Just like you are tilling some land, but when it becomes useless, you cannot till; you have to go elsewhere. Suppose it is overflooded. You cannot work there. Similarly, death means when the mind, intelligence, along with the soul, cannot work in this body, he has to go to some other body. Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg 2.13]. Dehantara-praptih.
Dr. Patel: That is when the prarabdhah...
Prabhupada: Yes, that will be decided by the prarabdhah and everything. So in this way, death means this gross body, no more working. That's all.
Dr. Patel: Subtle body lives always.
Prabhupada: No.
Prabhupada: Yes. Till...
Prabhupada: [aside:] Hare Krsna.
Dr. Patel: That is consciousness, the consciousness...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Prabhupada: No, no, no.
Prabhupada: Not consciousness. Consciousness is also matter. Consciousness...
Dr. Patel: There are two prakrtis.
Prabhupada: So therefore it is decided that both these material elements and the soul, both of them are prakrtis. One is superior; another is inferior.
Mr. Sar: No, no...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Matter, yes.
Dr. Patel: It animates the inferior energy.
Prabhupada: Eh?
Prabhupada: Yes, working, working. One is the worker, and another is the working ingredient, prakrti.
Prabhupada: Yes. Because... This Bombay city is important because there are so many para-prakrtis. If there was no living entity, who cares for the Bombay city?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Eh? No, no. Prakrti, jiva, yayedam dharyate ja... They are working... They are trying to enjoy. But... They are trying to be enjoyer. But that is not possible. Prakrti is enjoyed. Just like stri-purusa. Purusa is enjoyer, and stri is enjoyed. Similarly, prakrti is used for the satisfaction of the purusa. So if the jiva is prakrti, then the purusa, purusa is the Supreme Person. Therefore his business is to satisfy the Supreme purusa. This is bhakti-yoga.
Indian man (2): Then, then isn't it Saṅkhya?
Prabhupada: Yes, it is Saṅkhya.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. This is Saṅkhya. This is Saṅkhya philosophy.
Dr. Patel: No intelligence.
Prabhupada: And in Bhagavata it is said, avisuddha-buddhayah. The plural number is there, avisuddha, that "intelligence is not yet clear." Avisuddha. Avisuddha-buddhayah. Ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninah [SB 10.2.32]. But they are thinking that they have become liberated. Now you call... They address amongst themselves, "Narayana." "Narayana."
Mr. Sar:
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Sar: Destroyer.
Dr. Patel: So He is, in a way, all the three.
Mr. Sar: He's all the three. Yes, He's all the three.
Prabhupada: Yes, He's not only three, He's many.
Mr. Sar: And above them, and above them, and above them.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Ah. Now... Because He's the ultimate cause, therefore no more superior than Him.
Dr. Patel: "Nothing beyond Me."
Prabhupada: Yes.
[aside:] Hare Krsna. Thank you.
Prabhupada: Now, those who cannot realize the supreme cause, they are instructed how to realize. How to realize... If, while drinking water, you think, "Now this taste is Krsna," raso 'ham apsu kaunteya. He says that "I am the taste of the water." So everyone is drinking water. There is no man who does not drink water, at least. So if he remembers, "Now the taste, this taste, is Krsna," then he remembers Krsna. And that is bhakti. Sravanam kirtanam visnoh smaranam [SB 7.5.23]. Even by remembering, he becomes a devotee, gradually.
Prabhupada: Yes. And even if you cannot understand this, that how the taste of the water becomes Krsna, all right, you see the sunlight. You inquire, "Wherefrom the light is coming?" Then you come to Krsna. And if you are not foolish, ordinary person, if you are Vedantist, then try, "The omkara, Myself." Om tad visnoh paramam padam... He's learned. He's thinking, "Nirakara." "No, I am. Pranavah, the omkara, the beginning of all Vedic mantras, the omkara, that I am."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: And... Yes. Sabdah khe. In the sky. So in the sky there is sabdah. As the aeroplane goes, there is sabdah [makes imitative sound:] gura-gura-gura-gura... He can remember Krsna. Is it very difficult? You see? Bhakti-yoga, how nice it is. When the aeroplane is passing, there is gura-gura sabdah, you find Krsna. When you are tasting water, you find Krsna. When there is sunlight, you find Krsna. When there is moonlight, you find... When you're chanting Vedas, you find Krsna. So how you can be without Krsna consciousness? It is simply foolishness that it is cannot be done. No. The how it can be done, that Krsna personally is teaching. Learn it. And do it.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: When we... When you find vibhutimat sattvam, a very powerful man, a powerful elephant, you should..., you know that "There is Krsna. This power is Krsna."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Sar:
Prabhupada: So where is the difficulty to understand Krsna? [laughs] Every moment you can remember Krsna. Every moment you can see Krsna, provided you have got eyes. Premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti [Bs 5.38]. Santah. So you have to become a santa, perfect santa. Then you'll see Krsna always.
Dr. Patel: The very life of every individual is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Scientists have started understanding Krsna.
Prabhupada: They are standing?
Dr. Patel: They have started understanding Krsna now. Scientists.
Prabhupada: Now, here is the... This is very simple. A child can understand. Here is a dead body, and here is a living body. What is the difference? That Krsna is not there, and here is Krsna. That's all.
Dr. Patel: That is what I say...
Prabhupada: Yes. But these rascal scientists will not understand this.
Dr. Patel: Einstein?
Prabhupada: No, yes. They have no... They are, they are... I know one scientist, a rascal scientist. He has written one Chemical Evolution.
Indian man (2): Yes.
Dr. Patel: Litleo.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Article came. I read it.
Prabhupada: Yes. Chemical Evolution. "From chemical life has come." Just see. And he has got Nobel Prize.
Dr. Patel: That is the Russians.
Mr. Sar: Is it?
Dr. Patel: No, that man has not got the Nobel Prize.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. I know. In California University he was there. So one of, one of my students, he's also professor in the..., Dr. Svarupa Damodara. He challenged that "Suppose if I give you the chemicals, can you produce life?" That time he said, "That I cannot say." From that day, his meeting was not attended by the students. Yes. He theoretically said that "From chemicals life has come into existence."
Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact...
Prabhupada: No.
Dr. Patel: ...life keeps the chemicals together. As soon as the life goes away, the chemicals dissolve.
Prabhupada: Dissolve, yes. As a medical practitioner, you know. Where is chemical? Where is chemical? That is a fact.
Dr. Patel: Always fact.
Mr. Sar: So still we are researching it.
Prabhupada: No...
Dr. Patel: There is no research...
Prabhupada: That is... But when the fact is there, what is the use of your researching? When the fact is already there, what is the use of your so-called researching?
Indian man (3): How we can see Krsna?
Prabhupada: That is being explained.
Mr. Sar:
Dr. Patel: "I am the very light of sun and moon."
Indian man (3): God is there. But we want to see original form of Lord Krsna.
Indian man (3): What is the method of seeing God?
That is being explained.
Indian man (3): Oh, yes. Why not?
Mr. Sar: No, not those siddhas, satisfied.
Prabhupada: And still, after that,
Mr. Sar: But in this age there must be some people who must have understand...
Prabhupada: There is always. Not in this age or that age.
Mr. Sar: Every, every, every...
Prabhupada: Everywhere, every age.
Mr. Sar: Then you must have seen Krsna in the human form.
Prabhupada: I, uh...
Mr. Sar: That is the divine form.
Prabhupada: So...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Krsna, when viewed on the earth, He had that form.
Prabhupada: No, just like...
Prabhupada: ...a devotee sees the Deity of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: If you can understand it beyond the five senses of yours.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: You cannot see with the [indistinct] eyes or hear him with this ears. You have to go beyond.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that means...
Dr. Patel: Am I right?
Dr. Patel: You see, you have to actually condition yourself to, I mean, receive... [break]
Prabhupada: ...confirmed in the Brahma-samhita, premanjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena [Bs 5.38]. Bhakti-vilocanena. Santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti. Those who have become santa and those whose eyes are smeared with love of Godhead, they see every moment Krsna. They do not see anything but Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Now this is another seeing, another seeing, that one is very strong. That strong, strength, is Krsna.
Mr. Sar: Where does he get the strength from? Strength is Krsna.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna.
Mr. Sar: Dharmaviruddho bhutesu kamo 'smi bharatarsabha. That is a very important... Dharma aviruddhah.
Prabhupada: Yes. Dharma aviruddho. Dharma aviruddho means putrarthe kriyate bharya. Putrarthe bharya. Wife is accepted only for getting son, not for sexual intercourse. Putrarthe kriyate bharya. So when you have sex life simply for generating good son, that is Krsna. And if you want to enjoy your senses, that is papa.
Mr. Sar: That's correct.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Sar: If you take that way, then the...
Prabhupada: If you take contraceptive and enjoy sex life...
Mr. Sar: That is not allowed.
Prabhupada: That is maha-papa. That is killing. This is going on. This is going on, all over the world.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: And all the three modes of nature also is.
Mr. Sar: Krsna, He's above that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Just like an electrician. He is, by his knowledge, he is, the same box he's turning to be a refrigerator and again heater. He knows how, the art. So the heat and the coolness is coming from the engineer. But he's not there. He's not there.
Dr. Patel: God is with that.
Prabhupada: Then again comes to that, here. Krsna is within the dog, but He is not dog.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Mr. Sar: Tribhir gunamayir bhavair...
Mr. Sar: Because they are human beings. That's why I take in that way.
Mr. Sar: But the human beings, they are more, you see, first...
Dr. Patel: That's right, but I think...
Prabhupada: No, no, no... That's... It is argument. It is argument.
Mr. Sar: Let him explain it.
Mr. Sar: Well, human beings, we are the first of everywhere.
Indian man (3): If you say that you are... [break] That's nonsense.
Indian man (3): That's right.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Sar: That's the answer of it.
Indian man (4): That is God killing God. Part of God killing...
Prabhupada: No, God does not kill.
Dr. Patel: God never kills anything, and nothing is killed.
Indian man (4): He says that human beings and cats and dogs are God Himself. That means...
Mr. Sar: No, no, no, no. That's...
Mr. Sar:
Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore the bhaktas who have surrendered to Krsna, they can understand everything.
Mr. Sar: That is the most important.
Dr. Patel: Four types of people.
Prabhupada: Rascals and mudhas and sinful men, they do not do that.
Prabhupada: But those who are pious, sukrtina, they do.
Prabhupada: Arto, arto jijnasi means grhasthas.
Prabhupada: Arto and... Because they, the grhasthas, they feel distress of this material world.
Dr. Patel: That is, they are artas.
Prabhupada: Artas. They are in need of money. But a sannyasi is not in need of money, neither he cares for these worldly miseries.
Dr. Patel: They forget so.
[aside:] Hare Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: But He is dear to everyone, and everyone is dear to Him.
Prabhupada: Especially. Especially. Just like you have got many students. One is very intelligent, you take care of him especially. Therefore... The jnani is intelligent. Therefore He takes care.
Dr. Patel: That is very important.
Prabhupada: Everything is important.
Prabhupada: Yes, "Because he has accepted Me after full knowledge, nobody can defeat him. Therefore he is My atma." Especially.
Dr. Patel: So jnanis a...
Mr. Sar: Asthito...
Dr. Patel: "Perpetually welded with Me."
Prabhupada: Yes.
[laughter]
Mr. Sar: So-called. So-called, yes. So-called.
Prabhupada: So-called. Because actually when he becomes wise, he prapadyante, he surrenders. That is the sy...
Prabhupada: Eh?
Mr. Sar: Vasudeva still above.
Dr. Patel: That is... Nobody says that.
Prabhupada: That's all right. But because they are fools, they cannot understand.
Mr. Sar: Celo. Celo. You are a fool; so you don't understand. [laughter]
Dr. Patel: No. Don't call me a fool. I'll hit him. [laughs]
Mr. Sar: We are fighting. We are fighting. No, we are not fighting.
Prabhupada: [laughing] Now, now one thing I must explain. I think Dr. Patel is the eldest of you.
Mr. Sar: Yes, he is the oldest.
Prabhupada: All right. So you are all... He's just like my younger brother.
Mr. Sar: Yes, yes, yes.
Prabhupada: And you are all, mostly, you are just like my sons.
Mr. Sar: Yes, yes. Correct.
Dr. Patel: I am also your son. [laughter]
Prabhupada: [laughing] No, you are younger brother. Sons are on the same level. So I have got the right to say sometimes "Rascal, fool." Don't be angry.
Dr. Patel: And we accept it also. We know that within yourself you take us to be something different.
Prabhupada: That is out of love. [break] He thinks he's government. Because "Unless he's satisfied, if I do any mistake, immediately he'll arrest me." So he thinks, "This constable is government." That's all. He does not know behind this constable there is head constable, there is... [break] He sees directly, "The constable harasses me. So, 'Sir. Namaskara.' " Just like in the village, there are so many... [break] ...done. Somebody is killing the hens. We have got here? Before some deity? So there are so many deities.
Dr. Patel: All these Hindus, they always worship those... [break]
Prabhupada: ...and [Hindi], and this, that, so many, hundreds and thousands.
Prabhupada: Ah, here is...
Prabhupada: Mam api. So why not go to Krsna? Why to these... [break] The Mayavadis, they think that Krsna has got His maya body. His body's maya. Because the origin, Absolute, is impersonal, so when the Absolute comes in form, He accepts the material elements just like we do. We do. So they are abuddhayah. Their intelligence is abu...
Dr. Patel: They consider body of Krsna as Krsna.
Dr. Patel: In the form of a body.
Prabhupada: ...incarnation, He accepts this mayic body.
Dr. Patel: Only body, and the real is inside.
Prabhupada: And that has been commented by Dr. Radhakrishnan. When Krsna says that man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65], he says that "It is not to the Krsna person, but what is within Him. Within Him." That means he is under the theory that Krsna's body is maya, so you haven't got to surrender to the body of Krsna. But this fool does not know that there is no such distinction in Krsna.
Prabhupada: Ah. No, Krsna has no such distinction as body and soul. Prakrtim svam adhisthaya. He comes in His own, original body. Sambhavami yuge... Prakrtim svam. Not this prakrti. Svam, the spiritual body. That they do not take.
Dr. Patel: Kalatitah.
Dr. Patel: He's kalatitah.
Prabhupada: Kalatitah because He, He's all spirit. Therefore He knows everything.
Dr. Patel: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Kalo 'smi. In the Eleventh Chapter He has said.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: Is that so because of the reason of not understanding Krsna, they go on...
Prabhupada: No, no. Krsna is enjoyer. Just like a big businessman, and his secretary is working under him. So he sometimes thinks, "Why shall I work under him? Why not become another Birla like him?" That is the falldown. He's happy there, becoming secretary of a big man, but he gives up the job and tries himself and becomes a vagabond. That's all. This is the position. Anyone who is trying to become...
Dr. Patel: Because they are illusioned by the dvandvas.
Prabhupada: Dvandvas.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: Otherwise, they are going...
Prabhupada: Yes, duality. He's making duality, that "Krsna's interest and my interest, different."
Mr. Sar: All likes and dislikes.
Prabhupada: Now, here, here the real problem is jara-marana-moksaya. But they are, these people, they are engaged in paltry things. The real business is how to become free from the janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg 13.9]. They do not know that. Real..., real purpose of life they do not know. Take any big leader. He does not know what is the aim of life. What is the problem of life, he does not know. Mudha na abhijananti, mudha mam nabhijananti.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Now these things will be explained further in the next chapter.
Dr. Patel: That is what I was saying, that...
Prabhupada: This is the position.
Indian man (5): Does God need service?
Prabhupada: God does not need. You need to serve God. God does not need.
Indian man (5): He's not self-sufficient, you mean.
Prabhupada: He's self-sufficient, but it is for your interest.
Indian man (5): He knows before creating people they'll sin. Then why does He create them?
Prabhupada: Eh? Eh? He does not create. This is all nonsense question. He does not create. He does not create.
Indian man (5): He's not omniscient?
Prabhupada: He's omniscient, everything. But you want. Therefore He has given you facility, "All right, you enjoy. And become entangled." That's all. Therefore at last He says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. Therefore He says that "This is rascaldom. You are trying this, this, that, that. No. Don't try that. Come on. Surrender unto Me." This is the last instruction.
Prabhupada: One man is in the prison house. So he supports, "Why government has created the prison house?" There must be somebody.
Dr. Patel: To go in. "So let me go in."
Prabhupada: But government does not want that. Only the criminals are sent there. That's all. Similarly, this material creation, there was no necessity. But because there are criminals who want to enjoy, therefore God has given this facility, "All right, you enjoy."
Dr. Patel: The whole material world is created by the propensity of the past actions of all... [break]
Prabhupada: No, because God knows that "There are some fools and rascals who will desire like that. All right, if they want..."
Dr. Patel: [Hindi]
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like government knows. Suppose government is creating one city, but he's creating at the same time the jail house, although there is no criminal at that time. But government knows there are some criminals who will fulfill this jail house. Because you are independent. Everyone is independent. Not absolute independent, but slight independent. So therefore you have the option either to serve God or serve maya. That's all.
Dr. Patel: Serve God or serve Mammon.
Prabhupada: That's it.
Dr. Patel: You can't serve two masters at the same time.
Prabhupada: That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact... [break]
Prabhupada: ...minute quantity. [break]
Dr. Patel: All. You are having all... [break]
Indian man (5): Why does God permit all these sins and offenses?
Prabhupada: What is that?
Dr. Patel: That is the eternal... That a madman created all this. [break]
Prabhupada: Why do you not understand? God does not create, but you create. Just like you infect some disease, so you create your disease. Nobody's creating your disease. The simple thing, why don't you understand? If you... Karanam guna-saṅgo 'sya [Bg 13.22]. Karanam guna-saṅgo 'sya. Guna-saṅga. If you associate with the different qualities of this material nature, then you inf..., you become infected. You, if you associate with the tamo-guna, then you become lower-class man, animals. That is your fault. It is not Krsna's fault.
Dr. Patel: All your actions and their effects, which are collecting on you... [break]
Indian man (5): ...knows the procreating from the first word or some people will exercise their so-called free will and choosing sin, and still He creates them. If He were not to...
Prabhupada: No, no, no. There is no question of choosing. As soon as you associate some infectious disease, it is not the question of disease. You must be diseased. This is the law of nature. If you infect the smallpox disease, then you must be suffering from smallpox. That is law of nature. Not that your father has created smallpox disease for you. Try to understand like this. You infect yourself. [break] ...giving him chance.
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: ... Prabhupada says.
Dr. Patel: So you stop this looking down and look up.
Prabhupada: Who is caring for Him? Now, now. That is independence. Now you suffer.
Dr. Patel: And once you look up, and when you realize that this is all...
Prabhupada: Then you become...
Dr. Patel: ...His maya, all is due to Him, then you get released from the bondage of the maya, and you get...
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like darkness. Darkness means absence of sun. But sun is never absence of sun.
Mr. Sar: Yes, sun is never absent.
Prabhupada: Sun is always in the sunlight. It is for us to be in the darkness.
Dr. Patel: Is the other demigods.
Prabhupada: Devas, yes.
Dr. Patel: All the devas of the ten indriyas.
Prabhupada: That is... These are the questions. So this will be answered.
Dr. Patel: In the next chapter it will be answered.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes.
Dr. Patel: Eighth Chapter. This is the beginning of... This is the question put to raise the new chapter.
Prabhupada: That is Krsna consciousness.
Dr. Patel: It is fact only. I may tell you sir, that you must have such practice... [break]
Dr. Patel: As a matter of fact...
Prabhupada: Yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: It is fact only. I may tell you that you must have such practice... [break]
Prabhupada: ...to always remember Krsna, it is not that all of a sudden you remember Krsna. That is not possible.
Dr. Patel: That is... I told you...
Dr. Patel: Just like I have repeatedly told you...
Prabhupada: This is simplest method. In whatever condition of life you may remain, you simply remember Krsna. That's all. That is our Krsna consciousness movement. That's all.
Prabhupada: ...demigods. That is not possible.
Prabhupada: ...simply distributing what Krsna says. That's all. I am a fool number one also, like others.
Mr. Sar: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Mr. Sar: No, no, no, no, no.
Prabhupada: But my only ambition is that I don't speak anything else beyond Krsna's speaking. That's all.
Mr. Sar: Correct, sir. Just you are uncompromisingly speaking. That uncompromising you are speaking. [break]
That's all. Amara ajnaya... Caitanya Mahaprabhu says... Dr. Patel, hear. Krsna says..., Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa [Cc Madhya 7.128]: "You become a guru." Just see. "You become a guru by My order." Then one may say that "What qualification I have got that I can become guru?" That only qualification: yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna' upadesa. You don't require to manufacture any upadesa. Whatever is there already spoken by Krsna, you distribute it. You become guru. This is guru. Not that you are fool. Yes, I am fool. But I am not so fool like you that I adulterate.
Dr. Patel: No, I...
Prabhupada: That's all.
Dr. Patel: I am a fool number one. [laughter] Two or three. Like that. [laughter] [break]
Prabhupada: ...was a fool. But if we follow Krsna, then even though I am fool, I am right. Just like this child, he's a fool. But if father says, "My dear child, this is called stick," and when she says, "This is stick," this is right. He may be fool, but the version which is given, that is right. So I may be fool, you may be fool. That's all right. If you carry Krsna's message, then you are right. [break] We are fool. How I have come to this material...? Yes.
Mr. Sar: Not born then you wont be part... Unless you are in the realm of maya, you cannot be born as a human being.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. He is... He says that mam eva ye prapadyante. If you simply speak what Krsna has spoken, then they are not in maya. You are not in maya. [aside:] Hare Krsna. [hindi] [break] ...what Krsna says, then you are not in maya.
Dr. Patel: That's right. Because He is actually... [break]
Dr. Patel: Unless and until you know the madari who makes the web...
Prabhupada: But you can know when you surrender to Krsna. [break] So if you are so unintelligent, then it is impossible. But if you have got little intelligence, then you can see Krsna. Because Krsna says... We were explaining that, that "The taste of the water, I am." So don't you taste water? Then the taste is Krsna. What is the difficulty? Where is the difficulty?
Indian man (5): Each life being a plan of God, God is responsible...
Prabhupada: No, no, first of all try to understand this, then talk big, big words. You try to understand Krsna by drinking water. Is it very difficult?
Indian man (5): No.
Prabhupada: Then?
Indian man (5): But it will take millions of years before you understand Him like that...
"I am the taste of the water." Prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. So you see the sunshine. This is Krsna. The moonshine is Krsna. First of all try to see Krsna in... Just like there are two kinds of snakes. One snake is poisonless, and another snake is poisonous. So before catching the poisonous snake, you practice to catch the non-poisonous snake. Then gradually you'll be able. Similarly, Krsna is everywhere, and this is the process to see Krsna. That is a fact. When Krsna says, "I am the taste of the water," that is a fact. So you see this Krsna. Then you will, one day, you will realize the Supreme Krsna. There is no difference between this Krsna and that Krsna. This is the process [break] ...learn something, you should accept the process. If you don't accept the process, how you can learn? [break]
Mayy asakta. Just try to increase your attachment for Krsna. And the process is being explained in the Seventh Chapter. That is the only way. [break] ...sun is open to be visible by everyone. And Krsna says, "I am the sunshine." Why do they say that "I do not see Krsna"? Here is Krsna. And you take the water, taste it. That salty taste is Krsna. [break] ...prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh. The prabha of surya is there, and the water is there. You can see immediately Krsna. Immediately.
Indian man (5): Why did He create suffering, when He could have created a permanent paradise on earth?
Prabhupada: Eh? Eh?
Indian man (5): Why did God create suffering, when He could have created a permanent paradise on earth?
Prabhupada: No, no, no. That I have already explained. When you infect some disease, you suffer, that is your creation.
Indian man (5): Why create the wrongdoers, when He knows...?
Prabhupada: Yes. Because he does not hear Krsna. He must be committing mistake. [break]
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Patel: [aside:] Come here.
Mr. Sar: ...na caiva sukrtam vibhuh, ajnanenavrtam jnanam tena muhyanti jantavah. So God has neither created sin, nor the merit or punya. You see? It is only ajnanenavrtam jnana, because your knowledge is covered with ignorance, tena muhyanti jantavah, that we..., we..., we play like jantu, insects. [break]
Mr. Sar: No, no, we are... [break]
Prabhupada: ...university does not teach anyone to steal, but he, he becomes a thief. Does it mean the university has taught him to become a thief? So he steals and goes to the jail. This is the position. Svabhavas tu pravartate.
Mr. Sar: It's only the nature. [break]
Prabhupada: ...association with the different qualities.
Mr. Sar: That he has taught within, so many adhyayas, not only one. [break]
Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes.
Dr. Patel: Gunatitah. Gunatitah pratyahe...
[break] ...Hare Krsna means always remain gunatita.
Mr. Sar: Yes, correct. Because you are always... [break]
Prabhupada: ...Krsna. Definitely.
[break] ...not independently. [break]
Indian man (5): ...why the Jesus says you offer the other cheek? Which is better? Is the choice of us to be violent or nonviolent?
Prabhupada: Yes. The persons to whom Jesus Christ taught, they were already fighting. Therefore his first injunction is, "Thou shall not kill." They were already killers. You see? And Arjuna is a gentleman. He was thinking before killing. Therefore he has to be induced, "You kill like this." But they were already killers. Otherwise why Jesus Christ said, "Thou shall not kill"? That means that society was accustomed to kill.
[break] Yes, that under the circumstance.
Mr. Sar: Different persons on different occasions. Only the main occasions on which they serve. [break]
[aside:] Hare Krsna.
[break] ...surgical operation. Yes. When the...
Indian man (6): Yeah, I was disturbed in the early morning. [break]
Prabhupada: ...to have surgical operation, if the doctor says, "No, no, no, I have taken to nonviolence. I cannot touch with knife," that is foolishness. [break] ...you, one must know. And that, you take instruction from Krsna; then you'll know when one thing should be used and one thing not be used.
Dr. Patel: When there is necessity of... [break]
Prabhupada: ...create violence out of your own wish, that is not God's wish. Just like in modern days they are declaring war whimsically, by the political ambition. That is not God's wish. That is not God's wish.
Indian man (5): But God knows before creating jivas[?] and everything that they will start wars and take...
Prabhupada: Yes, even God knows, that is your creation.
Indian man (5): But why should He create them in the first instance?
Prabhupada: That is...
Indian man (5): Knowing beforehand that they will...
Prabhupada: That you will not understand unless you surrender to Krsna. You are asking this question for the last so many years, and...
Indian man (5): Ah, I have surrendered unto you. Now you explain this mystery.
Prabhupada: I am repeatedly saying that God does not create anything. Just like the same example.
Indian man (5): He has created this universe.
Prabhupada: No, no, no, no. You created. Why do you blame?
Indian man (5): How I was created..., I created this universe?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. So you were created to serve God, but you do not serve God. You want sense gratification. That is your fault.
Indian man (5): He's self-sufficient. He doesn't need service.
Prabhupada: No, no. Why you are repeating that question like a fool? [laughter] I have answered this. If you disturb in that way, don't question. I have already..., that you created everything.
Indian man (5): Yes.
Prabhupada: Yes. Just like...
Indian man (5): You say He has not created. Now you say He has created...
Prabhupada: No, He...
Indian man (5): Contradicting yourself.
Prabhupada: Then because...
Dr. Patel: [Gujarati]
Indian man (5): Sorry about that.
Prabhupada: Let me explain it. Let me explain it. Suppose you are ordered by the judge that you should be hanged. So it is certainly his creation, your hanging. But is the judge enemy of you that he has ordered you to be hanged? You have created such thing that you should be hanged. This is the answer. [break] ...situation that you must be hanged. But the order must come from the judge. So externally the judge is hanging you. But actually he's not hanging you. You are hanging yourself. This is the way. [break] ...you are hanged, there is no choice. Is it not? But still, you created the position of being hanged. That is the position. When the judge has ordered that "He should be hanged," there is no more choice. But who has created this situation?
Dr. Patel: [to Indian man] No, no, no. We are always like that. We are in the... [break]
Prabhupada: Supraconsciousness means... If you try to explain, because there is antyantikam sukham. That is spiritual.
Prabhupada: Spiritual. Yes.
[break] ...little by little.
Mr. Sar: Little by little.
Dr. Patel: And we, because we are dull students... [Gujarati] [break]
Dr. Patel: He, that [indistinct]... [break]
Prabhupada: ...around the world eighth time. No? Thirteenth time?
Dr. Patel: Thirteenth time. Now you must time..., the fourteenth time, because thirteen is a bad number. [Prabhupada chuckles]
Prabhupada: Yes, I have got the return ticket. All my secretaries, they have got. [break]
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