Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 6.1.45–50 – December 31, 1970, Surat

701231SB-SURAT [73:15 Minutes]

Prabhupada:

So as you have understood that dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]... Dharma, it is explained further what is meant by dharma. Dharma means natural characteristics. Dharma does not mean something sentiment. No. The people are taking sentimental value-"I believe in this." "I believe in Hinduism," "I believe in Christianism," "I believe in Muhammadanism." But dharma is not like that. Now today you are Christian; you can change to Hinduism, or a Christian can turn into Muhammadanism.

So you can change it, so after all you can change-that is not dharma. Try to understand this important point. That is not dharma. Dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. You cannot change anything which is made by the Supreme Lord. Just like, take for example, the sun is rising from the eastern horizon. You cannot say, "Let the sun be rising from the western horizon." That you cannot say.

You cannot improve with any law of God or nature. That is not possible. Supreme dharma is saksad bhagavat-pranitam. If it is the order or the injunction of the Supreme Lord, how you can change it? The dharma which you can change, that is not dharma. And dharma is eternal to Krsna: sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg 18.66]. That is dharma. And all others, cheating. That is..., I am not speaking these strong words; it is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Cheating.

Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2] The cheating religion is completely swept away, projjhita. [indistinct] Just like one uses broomstick to drive away all the garbage things from the room, similarly, the Bhagavata says dharmaḥ projjhita, the garbage cheating process of religious system is completely thrown away. And that garbage system of religion is also remarked by Sridhara Svami as moksa-vancha, desperation of becoming liberated. That is also cheating. So dharma cannot change. Now I have decided to inform you in your city I have seen two temples, they are known as Ramanandi, and there is no Rama.

Audience: [chuckling]

Prabhupada: You see? This cheating is going on, and you are accepting. There is no Rama, there is no Rama Deity worship, and the main [indistinct] is to see the Rama. Just see. And people are so foolish, they do not take care. This is going on. In Indore I have been in the Gita Bhavan, and so many nonsense things are going on. Another, I..., make a Gita committee; there is not a single figure of Krsna. It's [indistinct], in the name of dharma.

Ah, previous..., last night the boy was informing me that some Bhagavad-gita is going to be distributed, made by some svami. But according to Bhagavad-gita that svamiji is a fool number one. According to Bhagavad-gita. And he is distributing Bhagavad-gita, and people are accepting, "dhanyavat svami." This is going on.

So it is a very serious situation all over the world that in the name of dharma so many other nonsense, in the name of dharma. But the point is, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma is made of the injunction by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. How it can be changed according to your whims? You cannot change the law of God.

Yesterday I gave you the example, nobody can change. The big, big ocean is there. I was, when I was in California, especially in Los Angeles, I was going every day on the seashore, big ocean, Pacific Ocean. Big, big waves, but it cannot transgress the line, the beach, I have seen. I was just walking, say, a few yards from the sea, and the waves were coming, but they could not touch even my shoe. But it can, if the waves like, easily they can engulf the whole city. Sometimes it does so, that's a fact. But no, it is order of Krsna, "You cannot do it. You cannot do that."

So similarly, [indistinct] seer of these material activities you will find that the rising of the sun, by..., at night, and by calculation the sun rises at such-and-such time, 5:30 here. You cannot change it before 5:30 nor after 5:30. It is so strict. And the astronomical calculation of the earth is so many that they can divide one minute into some thousand parts, and still we find that everything is exactly in the same part, same position. That is the law of God. You cannot check. Otherwise, what is the meaning of God? Eh? But they are claiming that "I am God, Rama." Everyone becomes Rama, everyone becomes Krsna. This is going on.

And people do not ask it that "If you are Rama, show something. Rama constructed bridge over the ocean. What you have done first rate? Krsna, at the age of seven years old, He lifted one big hill. What you have done?" But when these things are there, they say it is fiction, it is legend, and actually nonsense of Rama and Krsna. This is going on. And they will have to suffer, as here it is stated that yena yavan yathadharmo dharmo veha samihitaḥ [SB 6.1.45].

As it is stated what is dharma and adharma, in the Vedas. Sa eva tat-phalam bhuhkte: one has to enjoy or suffer according to the injunction. Tatha tavad amutra vai. If somebody assumes, "Just let me have adharma...," just like Carvaka Muni, atheist philosophy is like that. They don't care for dharma and adharma. Their philosophy is, yavaj jivet sukham jivet: so long you live, hedonism, you live your best sense gratification process. Yavan jivet sukham jivet, rnam krtva ghrtam pibet. Living in India, ghee is a very luxurious food, so everyone wants to eat ghee. But if you have no money, he says, rnam krtva ghrtam pibet [Carvaka Muni].

But according to karma, if you have many debts and if you do not repay, then you will have to suffer, according to karma. That is the... Atheist will say, yavan jivet sukham jivet rnam krtva ghrtam pibet: "Then if I cannot repay my debts, then I will have to suffer? Oh, this is all nonsense." Bhasmi-bhūtasya dehasya kutaḥ punar-agamano bhavet: "Oh, when your body will be burned down, who will come and take it away?" This is the situation. They don't believe in the transmigration of the soul, they do not believe in the sastras, they don't believe in the Vedas, they don't care for God. This is going on.

But here it is said that sa eva tat-phalam bhuhkte tatha tavad amutra vai [SB 6.1.45]. Not only here... Just like here also it is said here that "I am a debtor, and if I do not pay, I will be arrested or I will be punished by the courts, by the law." And there it is said that sa tat-phalam bhuhkte, that as you cheat, as you suffer in this life, similarly, tatha tavat amutra vai, similarly one has to suffer in the next life. Because life is eternal, and we are changing our body, tatha dehantara-praptiḥ [Bg 2.13].

These things are not discussed amongst so-called educated person, that life is continuous; we are changing bodies every moment; therefore we have to change this body and have to accept another body and another accept another body. Suppose I am sitting in this room, if I change this room I go to another room, that does not mean that I have become free from all my obligations.

These theories are going on. Tavat, tatha tavat amutra vai. Now if the Carvaka Muni is asked that "Where do you get this statement?" He will say, "It is my opinion," and the people will accept it. But what you are? Why your opinion should be accepted? They do not know. "I think it is like this," and write volumes of books, nonsense, inferior subjects. This is going on.

And especially in this day and age, Kali-yuga, this system is very, very prominent, and therefore people are suffering. Most suffering in this age, Kali-yuga. Prayenalpayusaḥ kalav asmin yuge janaḥ . [indistinct] certainly it means their duration of life is reducing daily. You can see it: your forefather lived for hundred years, ninety years, and now it is very difficult to find a man who is living for ninety years or eighty years.

Their memory is reducing; their, I mean, capacity to give in charity, that is reducing. Just like I enquired from the president of [indistinct], we requested that if he can become a Life Member, but they cannot; they have no sufficient money. And they say that "We are the most intelligent men." The intelligent men means he is the poor, poorer. That is Kali-yuga.

Upadrutaḥ. Manda-bhagyaḥ. This Age of Kali is mandaḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya hy upadrutaḥ . These are the symptoms of the persons in this age. First of all they are mandaḥ, they are very, very slow. Just like in this human form of life we have got so many responsibilities, self-realization, but they don't care for it. Just like animals, simply they are serious about eating, sleeping, mating and defending, that's all. They have no other responsibilities, they think. These are..., the symptoms are there in the Bhagavatam, daksyam kutumba-bharanam [SB 12.2.6]. If one man can maintain his family, his wife and two, three children, he is understood to be a very great man.

Daksyam. There is no question of performing sacrifices, charity; these are forgotten things. Simply if one is married and has, I mean, manages to maintain his wife and children, "Ah, he's very prosperous." This is the standard of prosperity in this age, and therefore we find there is no marriage, no family. I have traveled these European countries; mostly, eighty-five percent, there is no marriage, no family.

This is the position of the Kali-yuga. No home. There are many persons who have.., who are thinking... Actually they are rich; they have got very big income, they are getting very big money, but they do not know how to live. As soon as they are getting money, they are injuriously purchasing some liquor bottles. So this is the position of the..., mandaḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya .

And religious means that religious: some false religious principal such as one who is teaching people with [indistinct]. If somebody says, "No, it is sinful," "Oh, what is this? This is all wrong." Children[?]. But he does not know, as it is stated here: sa eva tat-phalam bhuhkte tatha tavad amutra vai [SB 6.1.45]. It is not that... He is suffering in this life; he will have to continue in the next life.

Hypothesis. Hypothesis, just as I was explaining just the other day: the man is dying; so you can conjecture that this man is going to have such-and-such body by the direction of the sastras. By the direction of the sastra. Just like Krsna says, yanti deva..., yanti deva-vrata devan [Bg 9.25]. If you worship these demigods... That is the statement in the sastra, Vedic literature, that if you want such-and-such material benefit, then you have to worship such-and-such god.

They are not [indistinct]; they are [indistinct], but now they are claiming that "I can worship any demigod, the result will be the same. I can do anything and everything; it has nothing to do with religion," and these things are being preached by big, big svamis. You see? Big, big svamis.

So here it is stated..., it is stated that yatha iha deva-pravaraḥ. The Visnudūtas are addressed in a very respectful way, deva-pravaraḥ, "the best of the demigods." Because their bodily features were just like Narayana, so they are addressed as devata. Trai-vidhyam upalabhyate. Trai-vidhyam. Trai-vidhyam means the three, how you say, modes of material nature. Everyone is under the material nature.

Just like animal. Animal is under the modes of ignorance. They do not know that "I am standing on the road. The motorcars, they come and drive me with very..." I mean to say, without any anxiety it is standing there. That is animal. The danger... Just like in the slaughterhouse, one animal is being killed, and the other animal, he is engaged in eating grass. I've seen it, not in the slaughterhouse but in the temple..., Goddess Kali temple. There were two goats standing, one was being killed and another goat was eating grass. This is animal, that next danger immediately, but he does not know. This is animal life.

So why this trai-vidhyam? Because he is under the modes of material nature, as acknowledged. Those who are in the modes of passion, they are a little [indistinct], and those who are in the modes of goodness, they can see what is going on-what is going on in my this life; what I am going to have next life. [indistinct] everything is illusion. Trai-vidhya. Trai-vidhya means three classes of men, and next first class, three, the men in goodness, men in passion, men in ignorance and men in mixed.

So these things are going on. Here it is said that trai-vidhyam upalabhyate bhūtesu guna-vaicitryat. There are varieties of the modes of material nature, guna-vaicitryat. And we are claiming that "Everyone is God. Everyone is the same. Why this man should be like that, this man..."

But they..., they do not know that every one of us is under the control of the material nature, daivi hy esa [Bg 7.14] Prakrteḥ kriyamanani gunaiḥ karmani [Bg 3.27]. Gunaiḥ, the guna, if you associate with the good..., modes of goodness, then you can change the guna. That is also possible. Otherwise, what is the use of this sat-sahga? If one is serious about changing his position, then he has to change his present quality to the higher quality.

Just like these boys. Their quality, previous, before, was different; now their quality is different. That can be done. That I have explained already, that [indistinct], just like a diseased man can be cured, provided he undergoes the discipline system prescribed by the physician. He can be cured. It is not that he cannot..., it is uncurable. Curable. Everything is there. The sastra is there, the treatment is there, then everything is there; it can be done.

This Krsna consciousness movement is so nice that it can cure all kinds of [indistinct], all kinds of diseases. That is a special... Kirtanad eva krsnasya. That is also stated in the sastra: simply by chanting Krsna's name, mukta-sahga, he becomes freed from all the three qualities of this material nature.

It is so nice. Simply by taking to Krsna consciousness... And practically you can see that. It is not story. Our Indian people rejected, "You have stolen our religion," like that, but you can see practically how it is being effective in the Western countries. It can be changed.

All various varieties of living entities under the influence of three kinds of material modes of nature. Similarly, in the next life also you can understand, anumiyate, you can get conjecture or you can imagine that next life he is going to have such-and-such body, such-and-such... There is evidence, any intelligent man. How it is done, that is also..., example is given here:

Kalaḥ, time. [indistinct]. Evam janma...

All [indistinct] conjecture, that in the such-and-such period, such and such [indistinct] will take place. It is not astrology, but according to science, according to the reaction of the modes of material nature, things have to... Just like in winter season anyone can say that in New York or [indistinct] there will be snowfall between such-and-such months.

It is not astrology, but everyone knows that when the modes of material nature will react in such-and-such time, it will be effective in such-and-such way. It is not very difficult; everyone knows, anyone can suggest also. They become, I mean to say, [indistinct] that "Now the snowfall is coming down, and we have to make arrangements for the tire, make arrangement for the [indistinct]."

Here it is stated like that:

As you can suggest that in such-and-such period, such-and-such things will happen and they take place, similarly, one who is following strictly the codes of dharma and one who is not following the codes of dharma...., following the codes of adharma... You can, I mean any of us, you can suggest that this person will have such-and-such body, this person will have such and such. It requires little intelligence, that's all. It is not blind, but people have lost their intelligence; they cannot judge.

That is the position of..., mandaḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhagya . Sumanda-matayo. Mandaḥ, mandaḥ means slowest in everything: in age, duration of life, in intelligence, in compassion. That has been broken in this age. Mandaḥ sumanda-matayo.

So as we have already mentioned that there are many witnesses in the laws of nature, similarly, the Paramatma is sitting within your heart, isvaraḥ sarva-bhūtanam [Bg 18.61]. He's also witness, He is also witnessing your activities, and according to your activities, according to your desire, according to your reaction of activities, you will have a type of body. You will have a type of body. That is also stated in the Third Canto, karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1].

You are working. You are working, but you are working for your next body. Similarly, if you work in Krsna consciousness, your next body is going to be Krsna conscious [indistinct]. That is in Vaikuntha. That is the opportunity. You can do that in this human form of life. It is not possible to be done by the animals.

Manasaiva pure devaḥ. Pure devaḥ, devaḥ, devaḥ means the Supreme Personality of Godhead or the Yamaraja. Yamaraja has got such power that he can see in everyone's heart what kind of psychological reaction is going on. As the devaḥ, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Paramatma, He can know, similarly Yamaraja also can know. And pūrva-rūpam vipasyati. [indistinct] apūrva, pūrva. Pūrva means the body which you had previously. This is called tri-kala-jna. Those who are advanced very much, they can see tri-kala.

There is an astronomical calculation called Bhrgu-samhita. In the Bhrgu-samhita, if you have consulted the Bhrgu-samhita, you will find the calculation of your three lives: what you were in your previous life, what is going to happen in this life, and what is going to happen in the next life. So the previous life is called pūrva, pūrva-[indistinct], and the present is called caksur-[indistinct], and what you are going to have, that is called apūrva-[indistinct]. Apūrva means you have [indistinct] such body.

This body, suppose you are Mr. Such-and-such, your bodily constitution is such; this is finished in this life. You will never get such body again. Therefore it is called apūrva. You get once a chance for having a particular type of body, and when this is finished, then you cannot imagine that you will get another body like..., exactly like that. That is not possible.

So the Supreme Personality of Godhead as Paramatma, and Yamaraja, he also knows what kind of body has to be offered to this man. Apūrva.

Anumimamsate. Now anumimamsate, this man is working like this, so he has to accept a body like this. This is called apūrvam anumimamsate. Manasa bhagavan ajaḥ.

But so far we are concerned, as we have forgotten what was my previous body, even in this life... Suppose when I was a baby on the lap of my mother. Several things happened that I do not know what it is. Is it not? I cannot remember what I was doing, how I was acting when I had that body, that small body, baby.

But because it has left. So as in this life you cannot remember, how you can remember about the body of your previous life? Similarly, you cannot answer, conjecture, that what is going to happen in your next life. Yathajnas tamasa yukta. Ajnaḥ, you are born foolish, abhodha-jataḥ [SB 5.5.5, everyone ajnaḥ. Yathajnas tamasa yukta. Why ajnaḥ? Why this foolish?

[noise] [aside:] What is that noise?

Devotees: [indistinct conversation]

Prabhupada: I see.

Nasta-janma-smrtis. As soon as we..., just like in dream also. When we dream that I have got a body which is flying, at that time you cannot remember that "Actually I am not this body. I'm dreaming," and that "I have got a body that is lying on the bed." But you cannot remember. Just try to understand. As soon as you dream, you get a body, you forget this body, so how you can remember your past body? Dream also changes, just like this is also another dream. You are thinking that you are awakened, but so long you are [indistinct] by the modes of material nature, surely you are dreaming.

This is another kind of dream. As you dream at night while sleeping, the so-called awakening is also dreaming, unless one is in full knowledge that upaste vyaktam eva hi, and we have to act according to that.

Evam bhutas ca avidya sa jivas ya ca samsara yatana ta samsiddhi. This is commentation, you see? He says, evam bhutas ca avidya etadri, eh, jivas ca, samsara [indistinct]. How the living entity under the influence of ignorance, avidya... Avidya karma sahga: anyone who has come to this material nature, under the control of this material nature. The material nature means it will keep you in avidya. In the Canḍi this Durga is described, ya devi sarva-bhūtesu nidra-rūpena samsthita [Devi-mahatmyam]. This material nature's business is to keep you in ignorance. Avidya means ignorance.

Ya devi sarva-bhūtesu nidra-rūpena. Nidra-rūpena, just like at night you are sleeping, you are thinking you are sleeping very nicely. If somebody comes to you, chop off your head, you do not know. Nidra-rūpena. You do not know. Samsthita. But one thing is very prominent: this ear. If somebody cries, "Oh, Mr. Such-and-such, you are sleeping. Get up! Get up! This man is coming to kill you!" Then we can awaken.

So this ear is very important sense you can utilize. Similarly, as you are sleeping under the influence of material nature, as though you are acting, you are similarly acting, [indistinct] in this, prakrteḥ kriyamanani [Bg 3.27]. Material nature is doing; you're just acting. You're being forced to act according to your attitudes and all the different varieties of material nature. Therefore, as in this sleeping condition your ear does not sleep, it gives you help to rise up, similarly, even in this material condition of life, if you hear from the right person, from the Vedas, then you can rise up again. Therefore Vedas is complete.

So actually this is our sleeping condition, ignorance. Therefore our this Krsna consciousness movement, the first prescription is sravanam: hear, hear. Hearing, hearing, hearing, you will come to your sense. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ smaranam pada-sevanam [SB 7.5.23]. And if you simply hear about Krsna, then automatically you become purified, and you will know your constitutional position and you become free [indistinct]. Jagrta. Uttisthata jagrta prapya varam nibodhata [Katha Upanisad 1.3.14].

That is the injunction of the Vedas, "Get up! Get up!" Uttisthata jagrta: "Be awakened." Prapya varam nibodhata. You have got this human form of life. If you understand it and make your life free from the clutches of the material nature, modes of material nature... And that is simplified by Lord Krsna:

"Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he is immediately liberated to become free from the influence of maya," mayam etam taranti te.

Therefore Krsna advises,

That is the only advice. You have to surrender unto Krsna and be Krsna conscious. That is your only business. There is no other business. Is that all right? Or you have got anything to say? Hmm? Tell me. You have no other alternative. [indistinct] Krsna consciousness.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Now that you have to study, how you can say? How you can say? But this is the position. If you are serious, you bring this Vedas also.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You have to understand the defects of law by law book. Is it not? When you contact with a lawyer, it should be like this. But that you have to speak by the law books. Similarly, you can understand that svami by reading the svami's own books. But you... But that requires intelligence. Ordinary man cannot detect that.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That is adharma. That is adharma. Just like I told you, they have two temples, they are called Rama temples, Rama Mandir, and there is no Rama. Maybe perhaps I'm the first man to ask, "Where is your Rama?" So they said that "We don't like to meet you." Then why do you say that you belong to the Rama temple there? Why do you say? Why do you cheat people that you belong to the Rama, Rama temple there? Everywhere you find there is Deity worship.

Just like we are Gauḍiya-sampradaya, our Deity worship is essential. I am serving the Deity wherever I go all over the world, and this kind of Deity worship is going on. But they are atheists. They don't believe in the form of the Lord, but unless in many of the temples of Rama and the [indistinct]. That is the business. So the Rama Mandir is devoid of Rama mūrti. So did you not ask? You do not know?

Indian man: [coughs] [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: What kind of fool? This is blind faith. This is blind faith. You do not know what is [indistinct], this is blind faith. That is called dharma-adharma.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: This is a common thing, that you call it a Rama Mandir. We are invited [to] Rama Mandir, but when I went there I don't find any Rama Deity. And if they say that "We don't worship mūrti because [indistinct]."

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man: But Maharaja [indistinct].

Prabhupada: This is cheating. This is cheating.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That's it, if you want. [indistinct] otherwise it is cheating. In the name of religion cheating is going on. [indistinct]

This is sastra. Ramadi-mūrti, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is in so many forms. Why do they say that God has no form? Why God should not have a form? Why? What is the reason? I have got a form because my father has got a form. If God is supreme father, how He can be without form? What is the reason? What is the argument?

If we are sons of God, everyone... Krsna also says, aham bija-pradaḥ pita [Bg 14.4]. The Christians also believe that God is the father, the supreme father, and similarly if the son has got the form, how it is that the father has no form? Are you born of a father who is formless? What is this argument, "The supreme father has no form"? And sastra says:

Vigraha means form. How God can be formless? What is the argument? And why He should be formless? If He is the creator, He is creating all these forms, and how He can be formless?

Indian man: Nirakara.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Nirakara, what is that?

Indian man: [indistinct] Arjuna [indistinct].

Prabhupada: That is [indistinct].

Indian man: It is unthinkable. We cannot see. It is beyond us.

Prabhupada: Ah. But you are thinking that He is formless; that is thinking. Why do you say unthinkable? You are thinking that He is formless, but why do you say that He is unthinkable?

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That's all right. You say that He is unthinkable, but you are thinking that He is formless. So how do you say that He is unthinkable? That is your thinking. That is only your thinking; that is not a fact. Therefore argument. You are thinking, you say unthinkable, but you are thinking. That is a false statement, "unthinkable." You can think.

In your present capacity you can think, reason. [indistinct] duality, because you are accustomed to seeing in duality. However, there must be form. Why there must be form? Relative. Therefore as soon as it is stated that God is unthinkable, you say that He is formless. That is another side of your thinking. That is not the fact. Is it not?

"Unthinkable" does not mean that you can change on the opposite side, then it is good, the business is solved. You are thinking in the opposite side only. You are thinking just like I have got form, you have got form, and when in the Vedas it is said nirakara, you're thinking that He is formless. If I've got akara and He is nirakara and He is [indistinct]. That is your thinking. The actual fact is, as it is stated in the sastras, sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaḥ [Bs 5.1]: He has got a form, but that form is not this form. That is the statement.

Therefore you have to accept the knowledge from the Vedas, not by your thinking that nirakara means "I have got some akara, then God must be without akara." That is your thinking. But the actual fact is that His form is not exactly like your form. Therefore it is stated, sac-cid-ananda-vigrahaḥ. Now you can consult: sac-cid-ananda. Your form is not sat; it is asat. Sat means that it exists. Asat means which does not exist. So your form does not exist, but His form exists. That is the difference.

Therefore He is not exactly like your akara. But you have no idea that any form can exist, because you have got experience that any form [indistinct] that does not exist. Sac-cit. Cit means knowledge. He is full of knowledge, but so far our body is concerned it is full of ignorance. And His body full of ananda, and your body full of nirananda, all miseries, because your body is not sac-cid-ananda, but His body is sac-cid-ananda.

Therefore you can [indistinct] nirakara this form which you think of is of a different nature. Just like in Vedas it is said, apani-pado javano grahita pasyaty acaksuḥ [Svetasvatara Upanisad 3.19]. Pasyaty acaksuḥ. These things are there. He sees, but He has no eyes. That means His eyes are different from your eyes. You can see when [indistinct], that's all. That also not in darkness. That is the value of your eyes. But He can see everywhere.

Sarvataḥ pani-padas tat, sarvataḥ caksusa [?], He has got His eyes everywhere. So His eyes, His form, His hands, His legs, they are of different quality or different nature. Therefore He is sometimes called nirakara. This appears contradictory, pasyaty acaksuḥ: He sees, but He has no eyes, because His eyes are not like our eyes. Therefore Krsna says, vedaham samatitani vartamanani [Bg 7.26] In the [indistinct]: "I know the present, past, future-everything." So He reminds Arjuna that "Both you and Me, we took birth many, many times. You have forgotten; I've not." That is His verdict.

So His knowledge, His bodily construction, His bliss of life is different completely. Therefore we [indistinct]. Not that He has no form. This nirakara has no form, that is all material. That is material thinking. God has no form, but it is said... They think that if you have form, then He must be formless. No. He has got form, but not exactly like this form.

Avajananti mam mūḍha manusim tanum asritam [Bg 9.11] "Just like although I am dressed just like a human being, the rascals and fools deride as if I have accepted a material body." Mūḍha. They have been called mūḍha. Avajananti. God has form, but His form is completely different from your form. That is understood by avajananti, not this akara, but he has got akara, different akara.

Indian man: Is it possible to [indistinct] birth and rebirth?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man: Is it possible to think that [indistinct] birth and rebirth [indistinct]?

Prabhupada: Yes, it is very scientific and very easy to understand; it requires little intelligence. Just like so many people are saying that they have forgotten their babyhood form. So you had, when you were a baby, say ten months old, you had a form. Now you have forgotten. But that does not mean previously you had no form.

As now here it is said, anumiyate. As in the past you had form, you have got now form, therefore you can conjecture that in the future you will have a form. If in the past you had form, then time is divided into three: past, present and future. So in the past you had a body, in the present you have a body, why not in the future?

Indian man: Because [indistinct].

Prabhupada: That you have to take from the Vedas,

This is just what we were discussing: anumiyate. Just as the seasons are changing. Now we are in the winter season, but you can say that "In the summer season this will happen." That is the future. Anyone can say. Similarly, you can say what kind of body. As it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, yanti deva-vrata devan [Bg 9.25] If you are addicted to the different demigods, then you will be promoted to the region of that demigod.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Everything is there. It requires little intelligence, and therefore I am requesting to you to learn knowledge, particularly, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva niscayate [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. One must approach a bona fide spiritual master to understand this transcendental knowledge. Everything is there; simply you have to learn from the authorized personalities, then you can learn. [indistinct]

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You have distributed prasadam?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes, because He knows...

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the difference between Arjuna and Krsna. That is the difference between Arjuna and Krsna. That difference between Arjuna and Krsna means God and the living entities. That is the difference.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: But they are claiming that. That is rascaldom. There is always the difference between God and the living entities. But they are falsely claiming that "I am God."

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: The difference is always, anu and vibhu. Vibhu means all-pervading and anu means... Just like consciousness. You have got consciousness, but that consciousness is distributed in a limited spot within this body.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: But Krsna consciousness all-pervades. He knows what is going on within His heart, within your heart, within my heart and everyone's. That is His consciousness. Ksetra-jnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata [Bg 13.3]. My consciousness indi... But the individual person has got individual consciousness. But these Mayavadi philosophers, they say that because the consciousness is distributed everywhere, therefore I belong to that consciousness.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No. Your consciousness is always limited; that consciousness is always unlimited. He is vibhu and you are anu, that's all. But you have got consciousness, He has got consciousness. In that way you are equal, sahkhya. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13]: He is the chief of the conscious personalities amongst all conscious personalities. And because you are thinking in the wrong way, therefore Krsna says it, "Please surrender."

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Then you feel it.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: If you want to change it, surrender.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Just like father says, [indistinct] son: "First of all you agree that you shall abide by my orders, then I shall help you," and he got the help.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Is not that? Yes. If the son says, "Yes, my dear father, I have done wrong; now I surrender. Whatever you say, I..." "All right, come on."

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Yes, the son is always present in the father. The son is always present, natural, that is natural. The father wants to give everything to the son, that is natural, but when he sees rejection, "Oh, I'm not going to give you service." Reciprocated.

Indian man: He rejects [indistinct].

Prabhupada: That is the [indistinct].

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No, that is of this age, of this age, you see? And I say my soul will be transferred. That a Punjabi was bringing some earth to..., for selling in the market, Delhi. So he was carrying all this earth on the back of ass, as they used to, in those days. So he was selling on the road also. There were two sides in the van, it was loaded.

So one side, you could see that he was balancing the load by putting some stones on the other side. So one intelligent man, he was going to [indistinct] side, he said that, "Why you are doing like this? Why not when one side is finished, make another earth [indistinct] put in this way, put in this, and in this way it will make balance."

You see? He is an intelligent man. He could see he is an intelligent man, he was [indistinct]. So then he asked himself, "If you are so intelligent, what you're doing?" He replied, "Yes, I passed my B.A. examination, M.A. examination. I went to Delhi, but I could not get any service, so I am going back home." "Oh, you have no occupation? Then I am not going to accept your service. You are unfortunate."

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: "Then despite having so much education, you cannot get a service? Ah. Then you are unfortunate. I am not going to accept you. So I shall go on like this." That's a shame, you see? But that is happening. However educated person of the present moment means he's... Suppose you are a big technologist.

You cannot work independently, you have to find out some Birla. Otherwise studying. But you have got intelligence, that is a fact, but it is no use unless you get money. In spite of your intelligence, daridra-doso guna-rasir nasi, Canakya Panḍita says, "In spite of your all good qualities, if you are poor, then it's all finished."

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That's all it comes to.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That the Lions Club is full of intelligent persons, they could not pay for our membership. That we are getting membership from ordinary merchants, so many. They are supposed to have no intelligence.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian man: [indistinct] they were telling that "We are not [indistinct]." [laughs]

Prabhupada: Just see. They have no time even, because the same as if... Still they are poor. But still they are poor. They are telling they have no money.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That is not a fact. But bhakti is not depending on a rich method of... Ahaituky apratihata yayatma suprasidati [SB 1.2.6]. Any poor man can become Krsna conscious. Any poor man. Krsna is not for a particular type of man or society.

Anyone can. They should know how to become Krsna consciousness, that's all.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Ah.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Overpopulation?

Indian man: That is my opinion.

Prabhupada: Overpopulation means... Suppose you are now human being. Ah? If you do not take your liberation, then you remain in the cycle, then again you come. Just like in the station you picked up [indistinct] then [indistinct] it. [laughter] That does not mean population has increased. They are not being [indistinct], but still they tried it. Therefore it is your duty to become liberated, to be strong enough, than described this situation. [laughter] Otherwise suffer.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: As Krsna says: immediately. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvataḥ tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg 4.9]. Simply understand Krsna by this process and you are not coming back again. There is no more scientific cure. Why don't you do that? [laughter]

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Why do you like to remain in this [indistinct] state?

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Eh? Yes. He likes to make[?] himself, therefore he comes to describe his miserable condition of life. That is the effect of krsna-bhajana.

But if you want your repetition of birth and death here, you will be sometimes in this condition, that condition, that condition.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: If you read Bhagavad-gita, everything you will find our line. And if you read Bhagavad-gita promoted by some rascal, then you are useless. That's all.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You also become a rascal.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You are already rascal, and somebody makes you still more rascal. Just like one student comes to ask the teacher, "What is the meaning of darga?" He says, "Darga means [indistinct]." So the meaning becomes full of [indistinct].

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: If you are sure that darga means dog, that would have been simpler. But instead of saying something simpler, you make the whole thing turned around. Darga and darge, so you have to again go to another teacher, "What is the meaning of this?" This is going on.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: In Bhagavad-gita it is plainly said,

Dharma ksetre kuru-ksetre. Kuruksetra is a place, which is dharma-ksetre, still. But somebody says that dharma-ksetre means this body, and the Panḍavas means these senses, indriya. Wherefrom these semantics? And everyone is openly commenting in his own [indistinct]. Directly contradictory. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita,

And one big scholar says, "No, no, it is not up to Krsna."

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: This is going on. Their only business is how to avoid that, that's all. That is the whole scheme.

Indian man: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Kamsa's policy. Kamsa, he was always scheming how to kill Krsna. But he is [indistinct]. Krsna will say, charge you, that Kamsa that ultimately be killed by Krsna, although he was very sure how to kill Krsna. The Kamsa's policy will not [indistinct]. Krsna's policy you will be purchasing; therefore take shelter of Krsna. Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktaḥ pranasyati [Bg 9.31].

Alright. Thank you.

Devotee: [indistinct] [end].

1971VB25