Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta Madhya 6.142–8 in Hindi – February 5, 1971, Gorakhpur

Devotee: [introducing recording] Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, Caitanya-caritamrta lecture, evening 5th February 1971 Gorakhpur.

Prabhupada: So, it is the bona fide statement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu explaining the difference between the impersonal and personal. Impersonal means the features the Supreme Lord has are nothing material. Just like yesterday we were discussing that Krsna committed butter theft, that is not a material quality. that is a spiritual feature, a trait of the spiritual world. Even in the spiritual world same as here everything is present there as well, because janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1] everything existing has appeared from spiritual matter, brahma vastu. Just like yesterday I gave the example that this stealing propensity has to be there in the spiritual world, how else would it be present here? The difference here is that here it is with material designation, an imitation of the real thing. Just like Sridhar Swami says yasya satyataya nityapi satyam eva abhipadyate, the real thing is there in the spiritual world with the Absolute Truth but its appearance here is its mere imitation, just like there is the example of a mirage which gives the appearance of water within the desert.

It is true that water exists somewhere but that which appears to be in the desert isn't the truth. Similarly, all the various kinds of happiness present within this world exist in their real form in the spiritual world but here everything is present in its perverted form. This is the concept, that is why in the Upanishads it appears that Parabrahman is being explained to be impersonal, but that actually means that the Supreme is non-material and those who take Him to be impersonal lack clear understanding. The body of the Supreme Lord is sac-cid-ananda vigraha eternal blissful form, full of knowledge. And we cannot conceive that eternal form in our present conditional state and thus, think of it as impersonal. But such is not the form of the Supreme Personality, because it is sac-cid-ananda form, and how is that form sac-cid-ananda? This we cannot experience. Ataḥ sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaiḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.136] using this present material senses of ours, we cannot possibly experience the transcendental sac-cid-ananda form of the Supreme Lord.

Not just the form of the Supreme Lord but everything related to Him such as His name, His qualities, His opulence everything is transcendental and spiritual, His eternal spiritual opulence. Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says saḍ-aisvarya-pūrna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu says saḍ-aisvarya-pūrna svayam bhagavan tare nirakara kahi… the Supreme Personality of Godhead is full with all the six opulences, He cannot be impersonal. Just like in English it is said God is Great, but they don't have any experience of His greatness. What kind of a person do we consider to be great? A person who is very wealthy, very strong, he is considered great; a person who is extremely knowledgeable is considered great; and so is a person who is very beautiful. Such qualities make a personality appreciated as great.

So, Krsna Himself is full of all opulences, and how can such an entity by impersonal? That is why Caitanya Mahaprabhu is saying sruti jalpita nirvisesa [nirvisesa' tahre kahe yei sruti-gana] in the Vedic scriptures wherever there is the description of impersonal form sa abhidhiyate that is to express that the Lord is nothing material. Materially speaking we can only experience and speak about things which are in front of us just like we may say that this is not glass, not spectacles but what it actually is we in the material conception are in no position to express ourselves. We think that entities like us have form which stays for a few days, using this experience we think that God has a similar form. According to this calculation God is impersonal, if He doesn't possess a body like us. Just like Krsna says to Arjuna that many times you and I have taken birth but you have forgotten everything whereas I remember.

This itself indicates that the form of the Supreme Lord, Krsna is not the same as Arjuna's. because we don't have any recollection of our past lives, if even we had a body in our past lives. We have forgotten all about it and what we have within this world is temporary if it exists today may not tomorrow. Which is why we forget, but Krsna never forgets, this means that His form is made of something different, that is sac-cid-ananda vigraha. The form of the Lord being immaterial is sometimes addressed as impersonal but this impersonal doesn't mean without personality but an eternal form full of bliss and knowledge. The form of the Supreme Lord has a form which is transcendental and therefore some places within the Vedic scriptures He is called formless. But actually, that doesn't mean that God doesn't have a form but they are simply indicating and perpetuating the fact that the Supreme Lord has an eternal form full of bliss and knowledge, sac-cid-ananda vigraha. They in no way state that God has no form, God has a form but it is not at all like this material form,

Krsna the Supreme Lord is the cause of all causes, janmadyasya yatah, if He is formless then how can we possibly have a form? If the Lord is Supreme Father, then how can He not have a form if all His children have form? Krsna Himself says aham bija pradah pita. Param pita or the Supreme Father, how is it possible that the Supreme Father can be impersonal? These are the facts. So, wherever the description of formlessness is given it is simpy for the purpose to state that the form of God is nothing like this material form, the form that we have. It is not like that, this is the very principle.

If one considers this careful then one will come to the conclusion that God is a personal and He has a form which is eternal and full of knowledge and bliss. Still His form in no way like that of ours, that is why in the Vedic scriptures there is the description of formlessness.

And Chaitanya Mahaprabhu says that as there is description in the Vedas yato va imani bhūtani jayante, that the place from where all the living entities have taken birth from…. As it has been said in the Vedanta sutras janmadyasya yataḥ, they come to this verse, it has been said brahma haite janme visva, this world has appeared from Lord Brahma. Brahma is the original cause and the original cause of Brahma is Lord Krsna. Just like it has been said in the Bhagavad-gita brahmano aham pratistha [Bg. 14.27], brahma, athato brahma jijnasa, what is the brahma? Janmady asya yatah, from where all the things originate, avyaktat, the verdict of all the scriptures… that impersonal Brahman also has its original which is Krsna-brahmano aham pratistha, in the scriptures it has been said;

Krsna is the cause of all causes, including Brahman. So, brahma haite jiva, brahman means the living beings. [aside: something fell? What fell?...

So, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says brahma haite visva, this world has originated from Brahman, yato va imani bhūtani jayante [Taittiriya Upanisad 3.1.1] and Brahman is its ultimate position. Ultimately, everything merges into Brahman, prakrtim yanti mamikam [Bg. 9.7], it merges into Brahman which is eternal and this material world, with its nature being bhutva bhutva praliyate [Bg. 8.19] just like our body which is working fine now but eventually it will be destroyed. Then we will have to take up another body in this way things are going on in the material world, bhutva bhutva praliyate. One originates from Brahman, stays in Brahman and eventually merges in Brahman. So,

From where the world originates that becomes a cause, where it stays that is called adhikarana and where they eventually merge that is another cause, so these are three causes. The Brahman or Parabrahma entity, is always with from it can never be formless they are all with form. It is said so in the Vedic scriptures, as it has been described here, however, the form is extremely vast, just as it has been said in the Svetasvatara Upanisad.

These are the words of the Taittiriya Upanisad 3.1]:

These are all features of Brahman and in the Vedanta Sutra, it is compressed as janmadyasya yatah, and the same thing has been described in the Srimad Bhagavatam. Janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnaḥ svarat, this is the introduction from the Srimad Bhagavatam. The first canto of Bhagavatam begins right from this point. 'Apadana,' 'karana,' 'adhikarana'-karaka tina

Sa aiksata, God was alone and wanted to be in company eko bahusyama, He had the desire to become many at that time the material nature, aham bija pradah pita, so the nature was impregnated and many living entities thus appeared.

There are many potencies of the Supreme Lord among them there is also the material nature, parasya saktir vividhaiva srūyate [Cc. Madhya 13.65, purport], there are many types of potencies but within them three are major, the first is prakrta potency then marginal potency. So, material potency when the Lord thinks about creation. mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ sūyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10], then all these various multitue of living beings appear.

Now, Caitanya Mahaprabhu is saying that when the Lord glanced sa aiksata then there was nothing present within the material nature. Therefore, we should understand that the activity of glancing by the Lord is non-material, it is not worldly. This is to be understood that no material thing caused the creation but when the Lord glanced over the material nature, creation came about. In the Bible also it has been said, God said let there be creation and there was creation. So, the Lord God says let there be creation so let there be creation, which means there was no creation in the beginning. Therefore, the saying of God is no worldly saying just like we speak.

This is spiritual speaking, other worldly act of speaking, such is the principle. So, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, He says that when the Lord glanced upon the creation, which means that there was no creation until that time. That is why this seeing of the Lord is different than materialistic vision. Just like Sankaracarya says narayanaḥ paro 'vyaktat, vyakta or manifest creation is mahat-tattva, the material nature is called vyakta and then there is avyakta about which Sankaracarya says that Narayana is parah avyaktat, that He is beyond this material cosmic manifestation. That is why when someone's vision causes the creation to manifest it should be understood that it is no common act of seeing it is aprakrta, supernatural. This is the statement of Caitanya Mahaprabhu: kale nahi janme 'prakrta' mano-nayana if one considers carefully he concludes that activities of thinking, feeling and willing cause everything. But the thinking, feeling and willing of the Lord existed before the manifestation of this material world. But after the Lord's thinking, feeling and willing this material world has come into existence.

Therefore, this concept appears that the eyes, the mind and the will of the Supreme Lord are nothing material. He has an eternal form full of knowledge and bliss-saccidanananda vigraha sat means eternal, everlasting, it never perishes. The form of God is nothing like our own form. That is why if oe thinks that God has a material form, it is considered a great offense:

there is no offense greater than offense so committed. Therefore, the Brahman is transcendental and Lord's mind, his will and all His activities are therefore all transcendental. Then Caitanya Mahaprabhu says 'brahma'-sabde kahe pūrna svayam bhagavan brahman, this means that the perfect entity, the perfect entity is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Himself.

Brahman and Paramatma are not perfect but Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is perfect. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate , so, the object of essence is addressed by some as Paramatma and by some as Bhagavan. Now, where does the word Bhagavan origin from? It signifies the concept of perfection. That is why in the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says bahūnam janmanam ante jnanavan [Bg. 7.19], those who have attained perfect knowledge, who reach the stage after discussing knowledge for many, many lifetimes, come to the conclusion vasudevaḥ sarvam iti, that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the origin of all, the original Person, aham adir hi devanam [Bg. 10.2]. The original cause of all causes janmadyasya yataḥ, Krsna also says, aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg. 10.8], so those who have realized this, the personal form as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only He can be considered to be perfect in knowledge. As long as one doesn't understand vasudevaḥ sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19] his knowledge cannot be considered perfect. The Bhagavata says the same thing ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas [SB 10.2.32], there are many so-called saintly persons who think themselves to be free, vimukta-maninas, they think that they have become free but actually this is not the case. Here the word is used maninas, they think that they have become free.

So, they have thought in their minds that they have become spiritual, brahman, but actually their knowledge is avisuddha-buddhayaḥ. As long as one doesn't come to the understanding to the platform of Bhagavan their intelligence is considered avisuddha or contaminated, not visuddha or perfect. Ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas [SB 10.2.32], the simply think themselves to be liberated. So, Caitanya Mahaprabhu is saying that among millions of such people if one understands Krsna, understanding Krsna is not anything ordinary. Muktanam api siddhanam narayana-parayanaḥ [SB 6.14.5] among millions of liberated personalities one person becomes narayana-parayanaḥ, becomes a devotee of Narayana. This is the principle brahma'-sabde kahe pūrna svayam bhagavan svayam bhagavan krsna,-sastrera pramana [Cc. Madhya 6.147]. Now, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says the real meaning of Brahman is Bhagavan because brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti brahma, only by realizing one's spiritual nature, realizing brahman one's work doesn't finish.

After realizing one's spiritual position of Brahman one needs to experience Paramatma feature which then is followed by the realization of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is why Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, that the word Brahma, as Arjuna addressed Krsna param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan purusam sasvatam adyam [Bg. 10.12], the original person, and the original Brahman, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. This is the verdict of all the scriptures. Adi brahma anadir adir govindaḥ sarva-karana-karanam [Bs. 5.1], Krsna. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says brahma 'brahma'-sabde kahe pūrna svayam bhagavan, the complete personality of Godhead the example of this has been cited. Just like when you look at the sky you will see some clouds and some grey area but when you go closer you can see some stars, as we see so many stars. Then upon going further we see that within those stars there are cities and within those cities there are people with their activities, int his way there is everything within the planes such as the sun and the moon and within every other planet.

Sarva-loka-mahesvaram [Bg. 5.29], He is present everywhere only upon seeing from a distance the variegated features are invisible. When Sputnik was launched, it circumambulated the earth multiple times, from there the earth used to appear like some green object but when one comes closer, one can see all the varieties present within the earth planet. Here the come and get to see that there are so many seas, so many people and animals and structures, everything is personal sa-visesa. So, as long as one doesn't get to the Bhagavan platform he fails to understand the variety of the spiritual world. He looks at the spiritual world from a distance and all he can see is Brahmajyoti those who go a little further, they see the Paramatma and those who go the farthest and see from the closest, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Supreme Godhead Himself Krsna svayam bhagavan krsna, sastrera pramana [Cc. Madhya 6.147], Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that it is the verdict from all the scriptures. Some people ask why is there no word Krsna in the Vedas, in answer to that Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that evidence of Krsna's supremacy is in every scripture and Krsna Himself says vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15], the goal of all Vedas is to understand Me and for that one should understand Vedas under the guidance of a bonafide spiritual master. Then one realizes the fact and this only is the purpose of all the Vedas, to realize Krsna.

The injunctions and the mantras in Vedas are very difficult to understand and to explain them the various puranas were compiled by Srila Vyasadeva. Such books are the supplements, simply reading the injunctions of the Vedas. Just like there is one sutra of the Vedas janmadyasya yataḥ, to explain this there are entire puranas and Mahabharata, Bhagavad-gita and Ramayana. Everything has been explained in them all of them are Vedic scriptures. So, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that after compiling the Vedas and the Mahabharata, when Vyasadeva compiled the Srimad Bhagavatam, in that it has been said stri-sūdra-dvijabandhūnam trayi na sruti-gocara [SB 1.4.25], the women, the dvijabandhu, those who cannot understand by their own intellect, that is why Mahabharata and other itihasas are composed. There is Bhagavad-gita within the Mahabharata within which there are Vedic principles said by the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself-sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], that is why this is the principle of the Vedas. All the Vedas indicate simple towards taking shelter at the lotus feet of the Supreme Persoanlity of Godhead, this is the principle within all the Vedic scriptures: vedera nigūḍha artha bujhana na haya [Cc. Madhya 6.148].

That is why the puranas are composed. And the puranas are of three types, the sattvika puranas, rajasika puranas and tamasika puranas, in the rajasika puranas various worship of various demigods and goddesses is recommended through the medium of fire sacrifices, among the sattvika puranas there is the Srimad Bhagavata Mahapurana and within that only the worship of the Supreme Perosnality of Godhead is recommended-sattvam param dhimahi, before composing the Srimad Bhagavatam this invocation was written within which it was said satyam param dhimahi. I meditate upon the Supreme Absolute Truth, dhimahi, he is speaking in front of this disciples. So, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says purana-vakye sei artha karaya niscaya because it is not possible to understand the Vedas directly. The sūdras, dvijabandhus and the women have less intelligence in particular. The dvijabandhus are like that when a person is born in a house of a brahmana or a ksatriya but his behavior is not up to the mark, like that of a brahmana then he is called dvijabandhu. In the sastras the dvijabandhus are included in the category with the women, so stri-sūdra-dvijabandhūnam trayi na sruti-gocara [SB 1.4.25], these don't have the qualification of understanding the Vedas therefore, there is Mahabharata composed which is also known as the fifth Veda. There are four known vedas Rg, Yajur, Sama, and Atharva then there is Mahabharata which enables the less intelligent class of men to avail the knowledge of essence related to the Absolute Truth. Why is it so? Because srutayo vibhinnaḥ [Cc Madhya 17.186] the Vedas have a single opinion but because there are different types of people, to explain to each and every one of them there are different scriptures.

Actually, there is no difference, Vedas are one and all of the Vedic scriptures have a single aim, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15], the goal of all Vedic scriptures is to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But those who are still under the influence of the modes of material nature of goodness, passion and ignorance they find it very difficult to understand this. Therefore, in some places within the puranas it has been said if one has the desire of eating meat, they are described the method to do so and attain advancement spiritually. They are allowed to eat meat but not by buying from the market. Then how to eat meat? By worshiping goddess Kali, which has a proper ritualistic procedure regarding worship and sacrifice. But they don't wish to get into those intricacies, they call themselves saktas and say that they have the right to eat meat. In fact, they are neither saktas nor vaisnavas, they are simply hedons. There is a proper procedure to perform worship of goddess Kali, how there should be worship and sacrifice but they wish to give all of such rules up, and preach meat eating, and claim themselves to be the real worshipers of Kali.

So, there is the recommendation of worship of goddess Kali, it actually is there still it is present for the people to help them give these activities up. just like Candi puja, it is a procedure for drinking liquor, it doesn't mean that one should drink as much as he like, no those who are addicted to drinking liquor, they are encouraged to give this all up by the recommendation of Candi puja. All the rituals are meant for keeping them away from such a habit. Just like our government, it allows some wine shop and charges as much as it likes. You all know that if it takes a rupee for the production of liquor then after excise duty the cost of the same liquor becomes seven rupees. Why? because even if the cost is high, the drunkards will drink liquor. So, the government doesn't want there to be liquor shops for drunkards but they wish to regulate and restrict it by opening shops for the hopeless addicts.

Those who are addicted to drinking, by the way of restricted licensing, they are given a little chance, but it is so troublesome and expensive so that the person may finally decide to give up drinking all together. If it is completely restricted then smuggling will decrease. In the scriptures it has been said loke vyavayamisa-madya-seva nitya hi jantor, to associate with women, vyavaya, amisa, means to eat meat and fish, these and those who are inclined towards intoxication, they are to be restricted not to be left uncontrolled. There sure are recommendation of rituals for these things but for whom? For those people who are in the lower modes of nature, of passion and ignorance to gradually elevate them from those lower modes. To do so there should be discussion from the Bhagavatam. Just like you all are hearing. By the mercy of the Supreme Lord those who listen srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17], if one listens to the pastimes of the Supreme Lord with attention, he will generate piety, if nothing else. And pious karma is required. Punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ and those who perform kirtan they also become pious and so are the listeners, and by having piety, hrdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrani, the dirty things present within the heart, accumulated life after life, that is gradually cleared up. For Krsna is seated within the heart and when He sees that the person is trying to hear sincerely then He helps such a person hrdy antaḥ stho hy abhadrani vidhunoti suhrt satam [SB 1.2.17], God is a well-wisher for everyone.

He himself wants that these people have come to the material world and struggling, manaḥ-sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati [Bg. 15.7], these living beings are my parts and parcels. Same as when the father who is a very rich person sees that his son is wandering the streets like a mad person eating whatever garbage it can find, such condition of the son is very difficult for the father. Just see this is my son, he has gone mad, please just bring him somehow back to me. In this way Krsna continuously makes effort to bring back the wandering living being, life after life he tries to get them back which is why He gives the scriptures such as the Bhagavad-gita. He Himself comes sometimes, just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and sometimes sends His devotees to go and convince those living beings in this material world.

Just go and convince them. the living beings within the material world are asleep and ignorance and the representative of the Lord come and appeal to them uttisthata jagrta prapya varam nibodhata [Katha Upanisad 1.3.14], don't remain asleep any longer. Now you have attained this human form of life you should not remain asleep, you have this benediction of human form of life, you have the opportunity of understanding the Supreme Personality of Godhead, so you should pursue that. And Caitanya Mahaprabhu is saying the same thing bharata-bhūmite haila manusya-janma yara , you have taken birth in the human form of life in this land of Bharata. You should make this life successful and then benefit others. They should go and preach to those who are living like animals and in this way benefit them by delivering them. But what will you benefit by doing welfare for them? Krsna will see, that how much we are working hard for them. So, it is the duty of the Supreme Lord to preach devotional service, it is the work of the Supreme Lord by those who work on behalf of the Supreme Lord, just as Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66], those who work hard for Him, they become very dear to the Lord because they are working on His behalf, these are the concepts. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,

This should be the concept behind the study of all the vedic scriptures, and it will make our life successful. And once one's life is successful; one should preach it with those who are forgetful about it and hence are suffering. Krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha kare [Prema-vivarta 6.2] they think that if we get a lot of sense gratification, actually those who wish to enjoy they senses, call upon themselves a lot of needless tribulation. Such people are nothing but thieves and when thieves get together there is nothing but quarrel everyone wishes to enjoy by stealing the property of the Supreme Lord. This is not at all possible, there are many officers of the Supreme Lord, including Yamaraja and it is not possible for the hedonistic persons to enjoy whimsically, they simply suffer in their attempts. That is why as Krsna says, one should give up everything and simply surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is our Krsna consciousness movement. Thank you very much.

[Break]

Question: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Sat means that which is eternal, cit means knowledge, just like this desk is not conscious but this girl is. This is the only difference, if the desk is put here for thousands of years, it will stay right here but the girl will get around, this is called cit and ananda, sat and cit when are present then the spiritual entity will remain joyful. Ananda-mayo 'bhyasat [Vedanta-sūtra 1.1.12] and the nature of the living entity is blissful because it is a part and parcel of the Supreme Lord and when the Lord is with the spirit soul it is joyful.

The part and the whole are always together, they cannot be separated. Just like a part of our body is attached always to the whole body which makes it valuable. If we cut off this body part, then it will lose all its value and will not be worth even a farthing. Similarly, the living entity is the part and parcel of the Supreme Lord but when it is separated from the Supreme Lord then its blissful nature vanishes and one becomes without joy, deeply miserable.

Person: So, is our position sac-cid-ananda?

Prabhupada: The whole of the sac-cid-ananda is the Supreme Lord Himself and we are His part and parcel, that is why I was saying that when a spark comes away from a fire, it extinguishes.

Person: Why is the living being called alpanandi?

Prabhupada: Because the living entity is infinitesimal anu it is a very small part of the Supreme Whole, so when it resumes its position with the whole then it regains its qualities like the Supreme Lord but only 78% of Him.

Person: 78%?

Person (2): not a 100%?

Prabhupada: no, not 100%.

Person: So, if the living being attains perfection even then it will be 78% similar to the Lord?

Prabhupada: Yes, this is the verdict of the scriptures for the living entity.

Person: How do we get this number of 78%?

Prabhupada: Those who are knowers of the scriptures they say so, the foolish cannot understand this. Those who are actually knowledgeable they can do so. Just like in the times [indistinct], don't you agree with that? Similarly, mahajano yena gataḥ sa panthaḥ [Cc. Madhya 17.186], there are big, big mahajanas who say and one also gets knowledge from the vedic scriptures.

Person: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: That is why we share with you the teachings of Caitanya Mahaprabhu not some other ordinary person. He is the authority, mahajano yena gataḥ sa panthaḥ, there are big-big mahajana who have shown us the path. This was explained yesterday as well, just like in the Vedas the cow dung is considered to be pure, this is accepted. If we simply take the authority of the scriptures and don't try to speculate ourselves. What we get from the scriptures is bonafide not that which is deduced by speculation. In the Vedic scriptures, the way it is said should be accepted, if one follows his own speculations it will not be possible.

Person: Any question?

Person 3: Where does the word Rama come from ?

Prabhupada: Ramante yogino 'nante [Madhya 9.29], the yogis wander in eternal joyful state, that state is known as Rama. Param brahma param dhama para brahma iti abhidhiyate,

So, Rama means the person upon coming in contact with whom one remains forever in immense bliss. That person is Rama.

Person: So you said that... [?]

Prabhupada: Even the person attains the platform of pure knowledge, cit but it remains infinitesimally small because it is a part not the whole..

Person: So, it will remain small?

Prabhupada: It sure will.

Person: regardless of how advanced he may become?

Prabhupada: [aside: please let him finish.] Just like I gave the example that the spark coming out of the fire, it is also fire with the qualities of fire but the spark even though little can but whatever it comes in contact with, but when it falls in the water it extinguishes.

Person: So the point is that this brahma…

Prabhupada: Yes, one can wet it in water or dry it in the wind but when brought into the contact of ifre it will but same as firewood. The wet wood when is dried up, it can be reignited.

Person: But even in water...

Prabhupada: by falling into the water… just like within a fire there are many sparks but the spark sometimes is separated and if they fall on dry grass then they will start fire on its own. But if it falls on the ground it will be extinguished. And if it falls into the water it will be gone completely, all the fiery behavior. In this way when the livng entities fall into the material world and come in contact with the three modes of material nature goodness, passion and ignorance. If he stays in the mode of goodness then he gets elevated to the platform of Brahman, remains in marginal position if in mode of passion and becomes completely oblivious when in ignorance.

So, to vanquish these lower modes of passion and ignorance the procedure is given in the scriptures, srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17] by hearing constantly-similar to how the wood is dried up and starts to burn. This si the drying process similar to the drying process of wood. And you can see the evidence of their method, all these Americans and Britishers they were all mischievous. By our calculation they used to consume liquor, womanizers, gamblers and meat eaters. Simply by hearing all their bad habits died away. They have given up smoking even drinking coffee, and tea. They have given up all of this. Now, you see that they are worshiping the deities, chanting hare Krsna, and when such a spark keeps on burning, it reaches perfection and becomes fire. The firewood, when is burnt, it emits smoke in the beginning, but when it burns like fire then you can perform a sacrifice or run an engine, anything you like but in the beginning it takes time.

Person: How to fix our mind at the lotus feet of the Lord? Can you please…

Prabhupada: You should come and live with us. We will train you.

Person: Whenever you come here, we feel inspired very much…

Prabhupada: that is why we are asking you come and stay with us. Then this chanting of the names will not stop. If you wish to keep chanting then come to this center we have started here, all over Europe, America and all over the world should not stop.

Person: So, should we give up our homes?

Prabhupada: No, there is no need of giving up one's work. Just like we have our Dr. Rao here, has he given up this work? One needs to be trained, just like Arjuna was a fighter before and after hearing the Bhagavad-gita. Did he give up fighting after hearing the Gita? Why do you think like that?

Person: There is a big difference, when all the karmi people… [indistinct].

Prabhupada: There is no need of giving it up sthane sthitaḥ sruti-gatam tanu-vah-manobhir [SB 10.14.3], everyone should stay at their places, simply nicely hear the Vedic scriptures by their ears and simply by hearing everything will be accomplished. It has been seen that those who are engaged in the service of the Lord they are never touched by the influence of maya-mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te [Bg. 7.14], maya cannot even touch them, maya cannot even come in front of such people.

Just like if a person is not a criminal why will the police approach him? If you never steal what will the police have to do with you? But when you steal, then the police will surely come after you. So, all these thieves, they wish to enjoy the property of God showing Him the thumb in return. All these are surely thieves, they will certainly be troubled by maya. So, if we give up thieving, maya will give up coming after us. But may people wish to enjoy Lord's property without giving Him anything in return. Just like you have this electric light, which you pay the bill for every month but all of us take the light from the sun, do we pay its bill? So, aren't we all thieves? Say? So everyone is taking from God, eko bahūnam yo vidadhati kaman [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13], everyone is being maintained by the Lord.

Person: Is God in scarcity of these things?...

Prabhupada: God has no need similar to how the government has no need but if you don't pay tax then you will become thief. The government doesn't run on two pennies of tax you give but if you don't pay your taxes you shall be criminal. And if you become a criminal the government will take care of you, what scarcity do you have? But if you don't pay your taxes you shall be considered a criminal.

Person: How can we give taxes to God?

Prabhupada: Yajna yajna vidhi yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanaḥ [Bg. 3.9], if you perform yajna by engaging in this Sankirtan yajna yajnaiḥ sahkirtanaiḥ prayair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32], this is yajna that is why the procedure of yajna is given. All the humans need to engage in such sacrifices, all the deeds men perform they should be done as performance of sacrifice otherwise once actions will not achieve purification.

Person: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Is there any system of sacrifice in the scriptures? No? Yes? If you wish to satisfy all the demigods by performance of yajna, this has been spoken of in the Bhagavad-gita, you satisfy Lord Brahma through a yajna that is a tax. If you have earned something you should give 50% for yajna, then 25% for your family and 25% you should reserve for some emergency. This is the system of the scriptures. Not like one should spend all of in in consumption. You understand this right? So,

Those who simply eat for their enjoyment they simply eat sin, they will remain miserable, nothing else. One should cook for sure but should offer it all in the yajna for the Lord and take His remnants, this will deliver you. Don't we eat? Don't you eat have the same way we do? Don't you understand the meaning of prasada? Simply, to accept what you have offered to the Lord yajna-sistasinaḥ santo mucyante [Bg. 3.13], it will vanquish all your sins. What is the difference between eating halva here and from the market? Yajna yajna-sistasinaḥ santo, this halva will remove all your sins and that halva will increase your sin. There is no restriction is eating and drinking, ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam ca samanyam etat [Hitopadesa 25], these are required for our body.

Person: So, that should be eaten?...

Prabhupada: Yes, this eating is Krsna consciousness budha bhava-samanvitaḥ [Bg. 10.8], in the Bhagavad-gita it has been said aham sarvasya prabhavo mattaḥ sarvam pravartate iti matva bhajante mam budha bhava-samanvitaḥ [Bg. 10.8], those who are foolish they cannot understand but those who are factually intelligence budha, they bhava samanvitaḥ, they act accordingly to Krsna consciousness. Giving up? what can you possibly give up. What do you even have? You don't even own this body? This mood of using this body as a gift given by the Lord, that we have received it by the mercy of the Lord, and I will use it thanking the Lord, this shall accomplish your sacrifice. There is no need of giving up anything nirbandhaḥ krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam ucyate, if you simply accept everything with contact with God, that is called yukta vairagya. Now, see we are all sannyasis, why don't you all do the same. But some of your are saffron clad and some are wearing white. But all of us are wearing clothes, we have not given them up. we cannot possibly give up anything, we will have to accept everything that Krsna has given us. All we have to understand is that everything is God's property. One should not mistakenly think it his personal property. That's all. Here you all are sitting, you know that this is Krsna's temple, there will be no dispute, but if someone tries to claim it for himself then the quarrel shall start.

Person: [indistinct]|

Prabhupada: Aham mameti, janasya moho 'yam aham mameti [SB 5.5.8], janasya mohoyam, this is the illusion, I and mine. So, all this is going on in the world is actually illusion, I am a man, a woman this is my family, this is my society nothing else. This is called maya.

Person: So, in this world this is...

Prabhupada: This is going on, so the influence of maya, to become free from it is illusion. That is called illusion when we will understand that nothing belongs to us everything belongs to God, that will be svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6], everything belongs to God and I belong to God, this realization is called liberation, that's all. Mukti hitva anyatha rūpam svarūpena avasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6], currently we are mistaken in our consideration, identifying with different things. When we will become situated in our original position we will realize that everything belongs not to us but to God. Liberation doesn't mean that we have two hands now we will have four later. No, only the consciousness needs to be changed. Currently, we illusioned by aham mameti, this needs to be broken.

We don't own anything and we don't have any identity other than the servant of the Supreme Lord. This is all we have to understand. Maya on the other hand provokes the living beings making them think that they themselves are God. This is another conspiracy of maya to keep the living beings captivated. As long as one doesn't understand his position and keeps thinking himself to be God. Those who are jnanis bahūnam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19], some jnanis they keep thinking that they are God themselves due to some qualities they develop they think that they are God. That also is maya.

Person: Svamiji, what is ego?

Prabhupada: Ego means I. illusion or maya means that which is not real. Now, if you sit at home thinking that you have become a king. That is not real, that is illusion, maya.

Person: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: One who is a king he doesn't need to think that he is the king. He is king in fact. Those who are not king they have to think. But that is a mistake. One who is actually rich doesn't have to think himself rich, or work hard for the same? He is rich already. Those who don't have money they wish to try and get some to become rich.

Person: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: this will be understood gradually by continuous hearing.

Person: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Satam prasahgan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanaḥ kathaḥ [SB 3.25.25], when a person hears in good association satsanga, then the words of God, hrt-karna-rasayana. Upon hearing it pleases the ears and placates one's heard. Taj-josanad when a person hears them taj-josanad asv apavarga-vartmani sraddha ratir bhaktir anukramisyati [SB 3.25.25], when one hears them gradually one develops sraddha rati bhakti asakti bhava, this is generated.

This is the chain of development, adau sraddha just like some of you have come out of your faith, this faith sraddha should be developed.

Gradually, one will accomplish his mission, sadhakanam ayam premnaḥ pradurbhave bhavet kramaḥ, this is the order to gradually reach love for Godhead, this is the order tat-tat-karma-pravartanat, this should be accepted. This order once accepted one will take one to the ultimate goal, just like you go to schools or college, that is an order, which will gradually make the person qualified one day. Gradually if one follows the procedure one will accomplish the desired goal. That order has been given by the great saintly persons, and following them will help us accomplish our purpose. This is what Caitanya Mahaprabhu is explaining. If you listen to it and follow it you accomplish your goal. His instructions are for everyone. Not for someone specific but for everyone.

Person: Just like you have said…

Prabhupada: All of these who have come here, they have come here are hearing. Why else this religious system increasing?

Person: No, no it is not like that, there is some mind diversion going on for some time.

Prabhupada: That is why I am asking you to stay here. Why don't you?

Person: Here you simply worship morning and evening? That's all?

Prabhupada: This is the subject matter of our preaching. Just like we are doing it you should also come here learn and practice it in your homes. That's all, there is no need of giving anything up.

Person: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: You discuss things with you kids, you family. You do the same there is no difficulty. Everything has been given in the scriptures. [End]