Room Conversation – April 17, 1976, Bombay

As soon as you speak plain truth they will go away

Indian man: …stayed with the devotees in the temple...

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Indian man: ...and reached the peace of mind which I was not able to get, whole of my life, I was able to achieve by staying in your temple myself. You know for example I am in my own... [break]

Prabhupada: As soon as you speak plain truth they will go away. [laughter] If you go on flattering, then they will stay. What is that? If you make Transcendental Meditation you will increase your sex power and..

Indian: Rajneesh said that.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian: Rajneesh said that.

Devotee: Less blood-pressure.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Devotee: He said last night, less blood-pressure, from meditation.

Prabhupada: Yes. Less blood-pressure. The difficulty is that we want to be cheated, and there are so many cheaters. There are cheaters; if they find, "Here is a man he can be easily cheated," he takes advantage. But mostly they want to be cheated. As soon as you say that "You surrender to Krsna," he will not take it very nice. "Why shall I surrender?" Is it not? What do you think? "This is too much." That means he wants to be cheated, and if somebody comes, "Why shall you surrender to Krsna? You are independent. Why you are taking... Why you are becoming dependent on God? You are working hard. Why you are giving credit to God." Yes. Big, big sannyasi has said like this.

Indian lady: If they say like that, then they are not sannyasis in the real sense of the word.

Prabhupada: He is a rascal. He is a rascal..

Indian lady: They are not sannyasis in the real sense of the word.

Prabhupada: Na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante naradhamaḥ. This is the description. They do not surrender and they do not teach others to surrender. Then what they are? The formula is there:

One who does not surrender to Krsna, they are described in this verse as duskrtinaḥ, means most sinful; mūḍhaḥ, rascal; naradhamaḥ, lowest of the mankind. "No, no. They are sannyasi, very learned scholar." Mayayapahrta-jnana: they have lost their knowledge by the influence of maya. Why it is so? Asuram bhavam asritaḥ. The root cause is that he is in rebellion against God. You'll find this rebellious men 99.9%. Rebellious. "Ha, what is God? I am God." You'll find. If you hold meeting that "Why you are after God? You are God. You will realize by meditate..., by Transcendental Meditation you will become God, you are God." In this way if you bluff, thousands of people will come to hear your lecture, and as soon as you say, "God is there, and Krsna is God. You surrender to Him," "Oh, these are old fools. Primitive."

[Transl. This is the point. Is it not? What do you say? Isn't this going on everywhere? If you say there is no God, you can attract huge crowd. And if you say Krsna is God, then no one will come. "Ah, this is sectarian." This is the position.] Aiye. [Please come.] Real understanding: to hear and to think over the matter. Tad viddhi. Viddhi means understand.

It is already there, Krsna says.

[break] Why he is wasting his time and money like that? It is already there: tatha dehantara-praptir [Bg 2.13]. Krsna says. That means he does not believe in Krsna. He is becoming more than Krsna.

Indian: Also he has collected so many facts.

Prabhupada: Why? What is the use of collecting facts if the fact is already there?

Indian (2): Not it is there.

Indian: It will be of some use to others, who don't believe.

Prabhupada: Don't believe in the rascals, mūḍhaḥ. So you can try for the mūḍhas. That is another thing. And waste your time.

Indian (2): [Transl. Just like a foolish person.]

Prabhupada: But the fact is there already, any intelligent man can understand. Why..., if they are trying for the mūḍhas, the mūḍhas will never understand.

Devotee: Huh.

Indian: So which way is better, bhakti marga or karma marga?

Prabhupada: No marga. Knowledge first of all.

Indian: Knowledge and then..

Prabhupada: This is knowledge. Krsna begins Bhagavad-gita with this knowledge. Because Arjuna showed the symptoms as if he is not in knowledge, therefore He chastised him,

"My dear Arjuna, you are talking just like very learned man, but," gatasūn agatasūms ca nanusocanti panḍitaḥ, "the subject matter which you have taken, this body, and you are lamenting about this body-'The body of my brother will be finished, my this will be finished, this will happen, this will happen'-only on the bodily concept." So this body, either when there is life or when there is no life, gatasūn agatasūms nanusocanti panḍ... "This is not the subject matter of a learned scholar to study this body. It is a lump of matter. Try to understand what is within the body."

This is the beginning of knowledge. One who does not know this knowledge, his knowledge has no value, nanusocanti panḍitaḥ. He is not a panḍita. In another place it is confirmed, yasyatma-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhatuke. One who is accepting this body, as self. Eh?

One who is accepting this body... The whole world is going on. This is the subject matter of our preaching, that "You are not this body, you are soul. You are part and parcel of God. Do like this." This is Krsna consciousness movement. This is the beginning of understanding. But everyone is under this concept that "I am this body." "I am Hindu, "I am Muslim," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So on this basic principle of ignorance there cannot be any knowledge. You may be research scholar and this scholar, that scholar. This is a no... No. It is not the fieldwork of knowledge. [aside:] Hmm. Bring one knife.

Indian: Svamiji, svamiji, how to cultivate the concentration, and avoid the worries of this world?

Prabhupada: Concentration... You are doing other businesses with concentration. You are doing work in the office with concentration. You are studying things with concentration. Similarly, you have to bring concentration for understanding what you are. Where is the difficulty?

Indian: Concentration towards to higher...

Prabhupada: Yes, concentration means if you study your body. Eh? So "What I am?" This subject matter you study, analyze your body. It is very easy, what is this body. First of all your breathing. Study what is this breathing. You'll say..., you'll understand it is nothing but air. Do you think that breathing is life? Because this breathing, it is air, so when the breathing is stopped you can replace it by some mechanical arrangement. It is coming through the nose. But does it mean you can bring life? Hmm? So you study your breathing, you study your blood, you study your bone, you study your everything, whatever you have got, this combination-you'll find no life there. Then you understand that life is different from this material combination. This is concentration. You can do. It is very easy to analyze your whole body, and you'll find that that there is no life in these material ingredients, that life is different from this bodily combination. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: apareyam itas tv viddhi me prakrtim para [Bg 7.5].

These material ingredients, they are inferior, apara. There is a superior, superior thing, itas tv viddhi me prakrtim para. What is that? Jiva-bhūta, that is living entity. So you can study your own thing, if you take Krsna's instruction. Now Krsna says like this, what is your objection? It is Hindu conception or Muslim conception? It is for everyone.

Indian: Concentration is just...

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Indian: A child's concentration is just, the other...

Prabhupada: [aside:] Hmm. You cannot cut it?

Devotee: The knife is not very sharp...

Indian man: You don't know.

Devotee: The knife is not very sharp.

Indian: Hmm, that is not the way to cut it.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Indian: Take out this slice, full slice...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian: ...and cut it into two pieces.

Prabhupada: Yes. You do not know how to cut. One who knows, let him cut.

Indian: Take out a full slice.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Please show him.]

Indian: [Transl. Let me cut it]

Prabhupada: Tad-vijnanartham gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. [laughter]

Devotee (2): This is sharp.

Prabhupada: Everything requires a guru; otherwise he remains a fool, rascal, that's all. [Transl. Give, give. Give him a piece.]

Indian: [Transl. His concentration is here at the moment.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. He is very fond of prasada. Give him.]

Indian: [Transl. Just like a child's concentration is on prasada and a jnani's concentration is on the Supreme Lord.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Give, give one, one piece to everyone.] Hmm. [Transl. Just see,] in every item you require a guru. And to understand Krsna, or God, everyone is independent. [laughter] Just see the foolishness. Yata mata tata patha: as many opinions as many ways. "Ah, you consider about your own God. It doesn't require any guru."

Indian: [aside: [Transl. Now you two go to that side. Go, go there.]

Prabhupada: This foolishness is going on. For cutting a mango requires a guru, and to understand Krsna, he doesn't require a guru. This foolishness is going on. And Krsna says,

Krsna says you have to understand, like this. But everyone is thinking, "Why shall I go to guru?"

Indian: [aside: [Transl. Shall I cut one more?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Cut more.] What is this? Take this. Oh, that's all....

Indian: Vegetable. [Transl. Go sit there.]

Child: [Transl. Mummy is not there.]

Devotee (2): She just left.

Indian: [Transl. I see.]

Prabhupada: Why left?

Indian: [Transl. Some guests have come to our house.]

Prabhupada: Just see how he has cut. It requires a guru. [laughter] Here, this morning, I was citing that a brahmacari should be very expert, daksa. Was I not explaining?

Prabhupada: So if you do not become expert, then there is deficiency.

[aside:] No, distribute this. First of all finish that, then.... Keep it; give everyone. One piece, everyone.

Devotee: We cut it up smaller.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Devotee: For everyone, a little smaller.

Prabhupada: No small. Give him. No, no, that's right. Hmm. [Transl. Everything is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. Study it carefully and concentrate on them then you will have full knowledge.] But if he wants to remain a fool, rascal, what can be done? Every direction is there, and it is given by Krsna for this purpose, that when He will be absent, this is left for their study; they will get knowledge.

Indian: [aside: [Transl. Go there in that corner and sit silently. Stand up.]

Prabhupada: [aside: [Transl. Give some water to wash his hands. Where are you going? No need to go downstairs. Give water here.]

Indian: [Transl. Son, go there.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Is there water in the bucket?]

Haridasa: [Transl. Yes, there is. I am bringing.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. So give to everyone littlt little. You will get water here.] We are simply canvassing that "You understand Bhagavad-gita as it is and you get all knowledge." This is our Krsna consciousness.

Indian: [Transl. Go and wash your hands.]

Haridasa: [Transl. Come in this way.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Give him there. Hmm.] This is our mission. We are not manufacturing anything. That is not our purpose. As others are manufacturing the ways of realization, we don't do that. This is not our behavior, because we know we are personally, we are defective. We are all fools. But what I am speaking, that is not defective; that is perfect, because we are speaking Krsna's word. Hmm. That is not defective; that is perfect. So we are teaching our preachers that "Don't say anything defective. Simply say what Krsna has spoken. That is perfect." And whatever little success is there, only on account of this, that we don't manufacture anything, we simply present what Krsna has said. Some imaginary... [Transl. Each and every big, big man has manufactured. Many svamis and yogis go there and waste their own time and waste others' time. This is going on.] If the tree already is there, why should we manufacture and research? What is this research?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: There are millions and millions of living entities, and they are making research in the laboratory how to produce life from matter. Just see. How rascaldom is going on. What credit you will get? Suppose you, in the laboratory, you produce one life from matter. Suppose. You have not done it; suppose you do it. Then what is credit to you? There are already millions and millions of lives. We are overcrowded. [laughter] And this rascal is trying to produce a life in the laboratory. Just see, how rascal they are.

Indian: We may be thinking only God can produce this, but...

Prabhupada: No, no, apart from God, but what credit you'll get if already there are millions and millions of living entities all around? What credit you will get, suppose in the test tube you create one life in the laboratory? Who will give you credit? Only the fools and rascals will give. I will not give. We know that already there are so many lives. So we give that person who has created so many lives. Why shall I give you credit? Hmm? There are millions and millions of goldmines, eh? So I shall give the credit to Him, or a rascal producing a little piece of gold I shall give him credit? If gold producing is so important that one who has created millions and millions of mines of gold...

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada…

Prabhupada: ...He is to take credit... [aside:] Oh, come on... [laughter] He is to take credit, or one who has produced a little piece of gold, he is to take credit? Boliye, whom I shall give credit? Last year I went to South America, er, Africa. In the Johannesburg city there are so many goldmines. In the city, so many goldmines. So who has created this gold? [aside:] Thank you. So many goldmines I have seen. And this is in one planet; there are millions of planets there are also goldmines. Who has created this gold? Somebody has created. So whom shall I give credit? [Transl. To one who creates 50 grams,] or this?

Indian (2): I think by jnana marga they are working with Krsna.

Prabhupada: What is jnana? If they do not take the jnana given by Krsna, what is jnana-marga? It is ajnana-marga. Krsna is giving you jnana-you refuse to take it-and what is your jnana-marga?

Indian (2): As your disciple knows, they were spreading...

Prabhupada: No disciple or your disciple. I say that if there is jnana already, so if you don't accept it, then what is your jnana marga then?

Indian (2): No, they accept the jnana, and then they utilize it...

Indian: What is the meaning of jnana?

Indian (2): Huh?

Indian: What is the definition of jnana?

Indian (2): No, I mean what is the fact?

Prabhupada: So what do you think, fact?

Indian (2): After seeing the mountain, they found that it, how the mountain is built, and they have created cement. So we can build houses, just like Krsna's agent. Likewise I humbly think that in jnana marga they seem to work, those who are doing it.

Prabhupada: To manufacture cement?

Indian (2): No. Manufacturing anything, they are also moving with Krsna, moving with the nature. They are not going against the nature. And we, common people are going against nature, and so we are suffering. If we are sick, doctor advises to go with the nature.

Prabhupada: [aside:] Thank you. Hmm. Jnana marga, if you actually in knowledge, that is jnana marga. But if you not in knowledge, that is not jnana marga.

Indian: Bhakti-marga goes along with…

Indian (2): Knowledge of the self.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian: Knowledge of the self is jnana-marga.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the first knowledge.

Indian: It is not in bhakti-marga.

Prabhupada: Yes. First of all you have to know what you are. Because you are trying to adjust things to mitigate your distress and increasing your happiness. This is the struggle. Everyone is struggle for minimizing distress or making zero distress and getting happiness. But do you think in this world this is obtained, this stage is achieved, that there is no distress, only happiness? Then what is your jnana marga? If there is still distress, then what is your jnana marga? That means ajnana marga. You are trying, making research, to banish distress and get happiness, but if you have not gained that position, then where is your jnana marga? Who has obtained that position that there is no distress, simply happiness? Is there anybody here? Everyone says, "Oh, I am so much distressed." Then where is jnana marga?

Indian: But there's nothing wrong in enquiring into the...

Prabhupada: No, you can waste your time..

Indian: ...into the nature.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. That is another foolishness. That is another foolishness. If you search out in your own way, moghasa mogha-karmano mogha-jnana vicetasaḥ [Bg 9.12]. If you do not know the way, then what is the use? You will be baffled. You will be baffled. Suppose in the airplane, if you do not know which side I shall go to Calcutta, then you will be baffled. He must know which side-north, east, west, the latitude, longitude-then the pilot is expert. Suppose I am on the plane, and the pilot is there. Without pilot we are all bewildered. We do not know. Suppose if somehow or other on the plane the pilot is finished; then see what is your condition. Your all jnana marga will be finished.

Indian (2): You can't go then. [laughter]

Prabhupada: So without pilot there is no jnana marga.

Indian: [Transl. Is jnana-marga said to be of two kinds? Which jnana…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. There are two paths of jnana. One is mūrkha-marga and another is jnana-marga. That which is not jnana-marga is certainly mūrkha-marga. That's all.]

Indian: [Transl. Is there mūrkha-marga as well, sir?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. If one considers mūrkha-marga as jnana-marga then he is bigger mūrkha,] double mūrkha. This is going on. [Transl. The meaning of jnana-marga is that you follow the person who possess jnana then your jnana-marga is fruitful.]

Indian: [Transl. Who created the aeroplane?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Whoever has created. But if, somehowor other, the pilot of the aeroplane is finished…]

Indian: [Transl. It must have been created by a follower of jnana-marga. Not a mūrkha.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Like that, even a bird builds its own nest. It has also got knowledge. It knows how to collect small pieces of straws and make a nice nest. Do you know there is bird called tailor-bird? And how it makes its nest? That kind of knowledge is found in the birds, ants also. Their knowledge is not different from yours. Ahara, nidra, bhaya, maithuna: eating, sleeping, mating, and defending, this knowledge everyone has got. Do not think that only you have got the knowledge to make cement and build skyscraper building. Everyone has got that knowledge. According to one's requirement everyone builds their shelter. That is not jnana-marga.] Tad vijnanam, it is said. The ordinary jnana is not recommended. Tad vijnanam. Visesa jnana, or scientific knowledge, that is wanted. [Transl. And this kind of knowledge…Even a thief has got knowledge how to steal. He who steals, is not a fool. He is far smart about how to steal. Can we call him a jnani, that he is a very good thief, give him Ph.D title? That is not jnana.]

Indian: [Transl. That is also jnana.]

Prabhupada: Etad jnanam. Just see what is jnanam. Eh. [Transl. Listen, what is called jnana.] [aside: Bhagavad-gita. Amanitvam adambhitvam, in the Thirteenth Chapter you will find, amanitvam adambhitvam [Bg 13.8].

Indian: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Ahimsa ksantir arjavam, acaryopasanam. Hmm. Read it.

Devotee: There's five verses together.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Devotee:

Prabhupada: Adhyatma-jnana-nityatvam. Then?

Devotee:

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Devotee: Etaj jnanam iti proktam..

Prabhupada: Etaj jnanam. This is jnana. Or all rascals.

Indian: Etaj jnanam, [Transl. This is jnanam].

Prabhupada: [Transl. This is jnanam]. Or all rascaldom. Etaj jnanam...

Devotee: Iti proktam.

Prabhupada: ...iti proktam. This is accepted knowledge. And then?

Devotee: Ajnanam yad ato 'nyatha.

Prabhupada: Ah. Except this, all are ajnanam, all rascaldom. The cement manufacturer is a rascal, and the atom bomb rascal-all rascal. And here is jnana. Etaj jnanam. Everything is there. Etaj jnanam. Then? Yad ato 'nyatha ajnanam. Is it not?

Devotee: Ha.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Devotee: Etaj jnanam iti proktam ajnanam yad ato...

Prabhupada: Anyatha.

Indian: Anyatha.

Prabhupada: Iti proktam, it is accepted this is jnana. Yad anyatha tad ajnanam.

Indian: What was going on just now, for a long time...

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Indian: ...was just meditation, without knowledge, which actually...

Prabhupada: This is meditation.

Indian: No, which was actually speculation.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Indian: Meditation with knowledge, that becomes devotion.

Prabhupada: Yes, knowledge you have to receive from the person who knows. That is knowledge.

Indian: If I question someone...

Prabhupada: If you manufacturer knowledge, that is ignorance.

Indian: So if it was just meditation but without the air of knowledge...

Prabhupada: Yes, meditation means...

Indian: ...it was just speculation...

Prabhupada: Hmm. Meditation...

Indian: ...and we were just speculating in different directions.

Prabhupada: ...that is defined, that dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena [SB 12.13.1]. Dhyanava, this is meditation. So this is meditation, dhyanavasthita-tad-gatena manasa pasyanti yam yoginaḥ [SB 12.13.1]. Yogi, they want to see Paramatma. Īsvaraḥ sarva-bhūtanam [Bg 18.61], Īsvara is there, so yoga means to find out that isvaraḥ within the heart. That is real yoga.

Indian: The effort was there, but they were just speculating.

Prabhupada: No, effort, any effort, if you do not follow...

Indian: Yes..

Prabhupada: ...the instruction of higher authority, this is useless effort. Simply waste of time. You cannot become by your own effort a medical man. That is not possible. You have to go to the medical college, you have to learn under the medical man; then you become a medical man. Otherwise, if you sit down at home and meditate on medical science, what you will get? You will simply waste your time. First of all know what is jnanam. The first jnana is amanitvam. What is the meaning is there?

Devotee: Humility.

Prabhupada: Humility. The first requisition is humility, that "I have no knowledge; I have to go to somebody who has knowledge." This is humility. And if you think, "I have got very advanced knowledge. Why shall I go to anyone?" there is no entrance in knowledge. He is finished in the beginning. Amanitvam adambhitvam ahimsa ksantir arjavam. Everything is there. This is jnanam. Etaj jnanam iti proktam. Ajnanam yad anyatha. And as soon as you devite these rules and regulations you are in ajnana. Foolish. When jnanam is there, why we should become ajnanam? [Transl. Is that all right?]

Gopala Krsna: Can everyone go to arati now?

Prabhupada: Yes, arati.

Gopala Krsna: [Transl. Arati is going on in the temple, everyone please come for arati.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Kindly go.]

Devotee: All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Prabhupada: Jaya. Hare Krishna. Thank you.

Devotees: [offer obeisances]

Prabhupada: Yes, also.

[break] Everyone should become a preacher.

Haridasa: Sometime we should go to Bihar also?

Prabhupada: Why not? Prthivite ache yata nagaradi grama .

[aside:] Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. [end]