Room Conversation
with Ratan Singh Rajda
(Member of Parliament)

March 27, 1977, Bombay
Giriraja: I told him that you had agreed to wait to meet him. He said "This is wonderful. I have been pining for his darsana."
Tamala Krsna: This guy?
Giriraja: He said, "Now we must have rama-rajya." He said, "That is why I must meet your Guru Maharaja before I go back to Delhi tomorrow."
Prabhupada: Yes. I can give him... [break]
Giriraja: So I told him I would meet him at the rally. They are hawing a rally at Shivaji Park. And he invited me to sit on the dais, but I don't know if this is a good idea for us.
Prabhupada: Why not? He is honoring you.
Giriraja: Yes. So he said that he would ask the organizer that he should speak early in the program so that he can be free and come here as early as possible. So he is very serious. I don't think there will be any delay.
Tamala Krsna: What is his name?
Giriraja: Ratan Singh Rajda.
Tamala Krsna: What is his exact position?
Giriraja: He is a member of parliament from Bombay South, which is the most prestigious district, from Kalabha up to (indistinct), something like that.
Tamala Krsna: He formerly helped us?
Giriraja: Yes. When Mattrey was, did that demolition attempt, so he was one of the leaders in the corporation. So he fought for us. In fact today also he asked if there was any trouble, because he still is also maintaining his position in the municipal corporation. So I think when he gets back from Delhi in a week, I might bring up some of our little problems.
Prabhupada: That plan sentence.(?)
Giriraja: Yeah. And that road, that ten feet.
Prabhupada: What benefit they will get?
Giriraja: No, only harassment, they have... They have nothing to gain actually. And everyone knows it. But they are just so weak and political minded that they don't want to stand up against Mattrey, the officers. Anyway, I think I should go now then.
Prabhupada: He is coming?
Giriraja: Yes. I'll bring him here so there will be no unnecessary waiting. And...
Prabhupada: What time?
Giriraja: By eight at the latest. We'll try for earlier also. [break]
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya.
Mr. Rajda: I have come for your darsana when you were at Walkasha(?) last time when you came to Bombay.
Giriraja: At Bhogilal Patel's.
Mr. Rajda: Then much water was thrown in the Arabian Sea, and for nineteen months I was in jails.
Prabhupada: Jail?
Mr. Rajda: Yes. In that emergency, you know, and about 150,000, patriotic people were in jails, J. K. Prakash, Morarji and all Hindu leaders and all of the workers. So I was kept at Central Prison for nineteen months. Then they released me, and after this election period, just I would order to fight the elections from Bombay South. And with her blessings I have won it with a very comfortable margin, 65,000. Just now we were at Shivaji Pack. And when Girirajaji told me that you were here, I told him definitely I would like to ask for darsana.
Prabhupada: The material adjustment... Just like we felt little danger under the regime of Indira Gandhi. Now we have another feeling. This is material adjustment. Material adjustment may be temporary beneficial, but that is not permanent beneficial.
Mr. Rajda: Unless there is adhyatmika adjustment, there cannot be lasting benefit.
Prabhupada: The difficulty is... That we do not know. Just like you take a fish from the water and put it on the land. It will never become happy. Again you throw him in the water, he will feel happy. So the living entity is different from prakrti. In Bhagavad-gita it is clearly stated, apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim. These material elements, earth, water, air, fire, ether, mind, intelligence, ego, these are gross and subtle material elements. And the living being, jiva-bhuta, is superior than the inferior material elements. Apareyam itas tu viddhi me prakrtim param. Para-prakrti, it is part and parcel of God. Unless we understand this fact, which is very nicely explained in the Bhagavad-gita, this material adjustment will never make us happy.
Mr. Rajda: As far as this change is concerned, the basic difference is formerly there was no moral code observed by the rulers.
Prabhupada: It can deteriorate at any moment.
Mr. Rajda: That interpretation is there, that is there.
Prabhupada: You cannot say...
Mr. Rajda: If the rulers, they have got faith in dharma...
Prabhupada: They have no faith. That is the difficulty. They talk of God, talk of religion, but they do not know what is God, what is religion. That is going on. You may be or I may be. We do not know what is the identity of the living entity. Then where is the question of religion?
Mr. Rajda: No, in the last rulers, most of them were Communists, but they said that religion is opium. They say religion is opium. They didn't believe in religion at all.
Prabhupada: Therefore they say something, we say something, he says something. That you manufacture something. But nobody know what is reality. That is the difficulty. Unless you know the reality, to suggest something, "I suggest it," that does not mean it is solution. That is going on, all over the world. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah [SB 7.5.31]. Bahir-artha. The external features, these material features, they are concerned with that. Earth, water, air, fire, mind, intelligence. But they do not know that beyond this, there is another element. Unless you come to that knowledge, there is no question of welfare activities. That knowledge is available in India. India should understand. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Bharata-bhumite manusya janma haila yara [Cc. Adi 9.41]. Not only India, but he must be a human being. Not only human being, but also systematic human society. [break] Of course, we are trying to give this knowledge. These American, Europeans, they are taking it. It should be done very systematically, not alone tried.
Mr. Rajda: No, but in spite of that your efforts are have even got effect on the Western world also.
Prabhupada: (interference) ...because it is genuine.
Mr. Rajda: Genuine, correct.
Prabhupada: Therefore even little effort is giving great benefit. But we must know what that effort should be. Everything is there. We must take advantage of it. But we are not taking advantage. Now we have got good government, very nice. Now you should take advantage of the privileges which are there in India. The Bhagavad-gita is there. If you take direction from Bhagavad-gita, then you will get. The whole human society will be benefitted. That you do not know. That is the defect. Even big, big leaders, they profess to student of Bhagavad-gita, but they do not know anything. Although it is clearly stated. Who is the leader in India who does not know Bhagavad-gita? Even Morarji Desai, when he was to be arrested by leaders, government, he said "Wait, let me finish my reading of Bhagavad-gita," is it not?
Mr. Rajda: Yes.
Prabhupada: "Then you can harass me."
Mr. Rajda: And in jail also he was studying very minutely.
Prabhupada: But now he says that "Janata is my God." Is it not, recently?
Indian (2): In the first paper like that. But then recently he said that point because it of Krsna's grace.
Mr. Rajda: He'll swear to God. Krsna, Krsna. He is very clear in his mind.
Prabhupada: Why not preach Krsna, God? Why not with me...
Mr. Rajda: He has clarified that point.
Indian (2): He has clarified. Up to three days or four days he has clarified. On Friday it was not clarified. Today it was clarified.
Prabhupada: Why not government make people God conscious? It is very simple thing. God personally is explaining how to become God conscious. Very simple thing. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Four things. Even a child can do it. So why not leaders? Then their example should be followed.
yad yad acarati sresthas
tat tad evetaro janah
sa yat pramanam kurute
lokas tad anuvartate
[Bg. 3.21]
Why don't they do this, this God consciousness? Do it seriously. Then everything will be all right. They are defying the existence of God and reading Bhagavad-gita. This is their position. And if I go to the details, it may not be very palatable. But big, big leaders say like that. We have got everything in India, and to become God conscious, to establish the Lord's kingdom, not at all difficult. But we manufacture our own ideas. But we want that rama-rajya, but without Rama, how rama-rajya will be? So those who are leaders of the society, if they take it seriously, will there not be an ideal state? And you can make an..., set an example to the whole world. The whole world will be happy. But we must be very serious about it. That is our this Krsna consciousness movement. We are trying, but we have no support from the government, from the leaders. We are alone. Now, after twelve years, they have recognized in the United States and London, Germany. Otherwise I was, twelve years before, I was not (Rajda coughing). Loitering in the streets of New York, who was caring for me? Now these boys, they have joined, they are doing something, they are fighting.
Mr. Rajda: Yes. They are doing wonderful work.
Prabhupada: They must.
Mr. Rajda: Very enthusiastic work.
Prabhupada: It is the duty of the Indians. But instead of Indians, I have to collect these young men from foreign countries.
Mr. Rajda: We were just now talking about it on the way. In India we must take it up.
Prabhupada: Let there be one institution for training Indian youth, for this Krsna consciousness movement.
Mr. Rajda: That could be done.
Prabhupada: You do it, and it will be wonderful thing. Do it. In New Delhi. Or in Bombay we have got now very nice building.
Mr. Rajda: In Juhu.
Prabhupada: Yes. Cooperate with us. It is scientific. Last night our Dr. Svarupa Damodara presented very scientifically. We can challenge any scientist, any philosopher. So if you become serious, if you cooperate with us, this institution can set a great example, not only in India, but to the whole world. So you are so kind, you have come to see me. You have got desire. So let us take it seriously.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Correct.
Prabhupada: It is serious, but nobody has taken it seriously. Bhagavad-gita is popular book. Everyone takes the Bhagavad-gita and says, "I am student of Bhagavad-gita." It is very simple thing. And if the leaders of the society, they set example, others will follow.
Mr. Rajda: Correct. That's correct. Serious effort should be made. Only lip service will not help. That is correct. No, I fully agree, and we shall definitely apply our mind to that. I am connected with this or I came into contact with this movement when the Juhu temple was demolished, and at that time, under standing committee and ten set of demands.(?) Ah, yes. Then Giriraja and some friends had come to me for cooperation.
Prabhupada: So you have given a great service. Now it is not only demolished, it is standing there.
Mr. Rajda: No, it is standing and very nice temple.
Prabhupada: So let us take advantage of it and make a very perfect institution so that people may take advantage. Otherwise... There is a Bengali song, mayar bose jaccho bhese', Khaccho habudubu bhai. Everyone is being washed away by the waves of this material energy. And their attempt to save themselves... That's... Everything is described in the Bhagavad-gita. Just like in light, during the rainy season, so many worms and flies, they come and fall in the fire, phat-phat-phat. They do not know. This is the very description, in the Eleventh Chapter. So we do not condemn material life, but without spiritual understanding, this dog race for material comforts, it may be temporary, very nice, but ultimately it is being carried away by the waves of material nature. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. Let them study Bhagavad-gita seriously. Let there be serious student to understand, to explain, and everything will be... There must be sadacara.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, religious principles.
Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmacari guru-kule vasan danto guror hitam [SB 7.12.1]. We are opening gurukula in Vrndavana. We can open here also. We have got land, so let us cooperate. The things are there. We haven't got to manufacture it. Simply we have to take the program seriously. Then everything will be all right.
Mr. Rajda: Por how many days you are here in Bombay?
Prabhupada: At least for one month.
Mr. Rajda: To one month. I am returning on seventh again here. Then I shall come here. Tomorrow I am going for Delhi, but on seventh I am returning. Seventh I will come here again.
Prabhupada: So you come and let us (indistinct).
Mr. Rajda: And we can detail some letters for business.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Indian (2): So can I suggest one thing? We were discussing the meeting with Morarji Desai, so you can carry on the conversation.
Mr. Rajda: Yes, yes...
Prabhupada: No let us first of all meet some of the subordinate worker. When they agree, then we will have...
Mr. Rajda: That meeting could be arranged any time. Whenever it is convenient to you, you can, we can talk to him.
Prabhupada: No, I am..., my life is dedicated for this purpose. I am... It is convenient for me at any time. Otherwise, I am not keeping good health at the moment. Still, I have come. I am just trying even up to the last moment of my life, if I can deliver some good to these people. That is my determination. What is this life? Life will end today or tomorrow or day after. But if you live just to the point, that is the idea. Otherwise trees are also living thousands of years. What is the benefit?
Mr. Rajda: Morarji Desai meeting we can arrange any time. Will it be possible, suppose I go there and fix up time and telephone over there?
Indian (2): Yes. You can give my card and telephone number
Mr. Rajda: All right, all right. That will be arranged.
Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita is not a sectarian. It is full of... Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]. So it is practically proved, how they are taking Bhagavad-gita. So it is science. It is actually life. So why not practice in India? It is not that everyone will be able, but there must be an exemplary sect. People may see that there is ideal. That we can do. India it is easier, because those who are born in India, constitutionally they have got that tendency. Simply we have to channelize. Then everything will be... So there is a good chance. Now the government has changed. They are after something very good, and the direction is there. If you take it seriously, there will be no difficulty.
Mr. Rajda: No, definitely we shall take it up seriously, very seriously. We have no chance in the sense we are ourselves in prison after I met you last. Immediately we were taken in. And this all hullabaloo came about, reactions and all this. It is only now that we get the breathing time.
Prabhupada: So there is some Krsna's purpose that you were elected.
Mr. Rajda: It is through His blessings.
Prabhupada: Take advantage of His blessings. Do some service. Your full name?
Mr. Rajda: Ratan Singh Rajda.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. (pause)
Giriraja: Srila Prabhupada, I think we can go with Mr. Rajda to the pandal, and since you have already met and it is very late...
Prabhupada: I can go. You want me to go also? You want me to go also?
Giriraja: No, I am thinking that Acyutananda Swami must have already spoken and, you know, we've had the rama-lila. So I think it may not be necessary for you to go.
Prabhupada: All right. Then you take Mr. Rajda.
Mr. Rajda: (takes leave)
Prabhupada: Thank you. (obeisances) (end)

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