770121r2.bhu
Room Conversation

January 21, 1977, Bhuvanesvara
Prabhupada: ...port an worldwide movement. Very cautiously, very intelligently, we should use our resources, intelligence. This is a worldwide movement. And feeling our pressure. There is obstruction, therefore. And it is genuine. There is no doubt about it. No doubt about it. We are not going to be defeated. I am confident. And with this confidence I went to your country that "Why Caitanya Mahaprabhu's..." That is substance. "So many rascals are going and talking nonsense. They are becoming successful. Why not Caitanya Mahaprabhu?" That was my confi... Otherwise I never expected that I shall be able to write so many books and it will be so much appreciated. It is wonderful appreciation. Is it not?
Ramesvara: Oh, yes.
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: I never expected. I thought that "Who will hear me if I say all this nonsense to them?" To them it is nonsense. Therefore they say "brainwash." They cannot appreciate.
Hari-sauri: There's never been such appreciation of one author's work before. It's just amazing.
Ramesvara: Even our own men are taking our mission more seriously now that these appreciations have come. They are understanding more how this is the only hope for the whole world, very grave work.
Prabhupada: Yes. That's a fact. That's a fact. Lokasyajanato vidvams cakre sat... Find out this verse. We are giving a light which was unknown in the world. That's a fact. Lokasyajanato vidvams cakre satvata... Anarthopasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje [SB 1.7.6]. This is the secret of making the world happy. Anartha. Simply they have created unwanted things, and people are suffering. So in order to cut down these anarthas, unnecessary, unwanted thing, this is the only way. That is stated in the Bhagavata. First part? No, no, it is no Bhagavad-gita. It is the Bhagavatam, First part.
Hari-sauri: Oh. We don't have it. We haven't got a First Canto.
Prabhupada: Anarthopasamam saksad.
Ramesvara: It's like you say. It's a new culture. Our art paintings one day will be seen all over the world. Just like now they hang art paintings in all government buildings.
Prabhupada: It was written for this purpose. People are suffering by their concocted culture, suffering. And Guru Maharaja wanted this. Actually it is his mission, Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. But I am... I have tried sincerely. I am not qualified, but only qualification is that I tried to do the best. That's all, that much qualification. I had faith in their program, and I thought, "I shall try my best, whatever capacity I have got." That's all. Yasya deve para bhaktir tatha deve tatha gurau [SU 6.23]. Little confident that "Why? If Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants it, my Guru Maharaja wants it, why it will not be successful? Let me try." That's all. Mukham karoti vacalam pangum langhayate girim: "A dumb man can become orator." (laughs) It is like that. I never thought that they will praise so much. What it is possible? Mukham karoti vacalam. (laughs) "A dumb man can become orator, and a lame man can cross over the mountain." Yat krpa tam aham vande sri-gurum dina-taranam. By the mercy of guru it is possible. So these are not stories. They are fact. That is spiritual life. All right.
Ramesvara: Jaya Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: [break] ...changing. The prescription is there, but I am trying my humble way to present it. That's all. I have no power. But the, the order is there. Anarthopasamam saksad. And people do not know it. Therefore this Bhagavata is presented. Now give it to the people. Our credit should be that we are giving the statement of Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, as it is. That's all. No adulteration, interpretation. It has been medicine. Medicine is there already. It is not that I have manufactured the medicine. But we are administering in the proper way. Therefore it is becoming... We cannot make any medicine. Medicine is already there. But we don't make any adulteration. As it is, we are administering, and therefore it is coming out nice. (breakkirtana background) What is that Re...?
Ramesvara: Research how to get new sources of food.
Prabhupada: No.
Hari-sauri: Reader's Digest, that "Life After Death."
Prabhupada: "Life After..." They do not believe. Western countries, they do not believe there is life after death. They are making research.
Hari-sauri: But if it comes in a scientific presentation, (laughs) then they accept.
Prabhupada: What is this scientific presentation? (laughs) It is simple thing. Krsna is giving the example, the dehantara. A child is changing body to boyhood, boyhood... Very simple thing. But the brain is so dull, they cannot understand.
Ramesvara: It is too subtle for them to see or measure with their blunt senses, so therefore they do not accept it. They think of it as just...
Prabhupada: That is for less intelligent. We accept it, even we do not understand thoroughly. But Krsna says, authority, sruti; we believe it.
Ramesvara: They have too much bad experience being cheated, so they don't believe anyone. In America...
Prabhupada: Why you should be cheated when Krsna says? Krsna is not cheating.
Ramesvara: They would say, "How do you know God said that? Just because it is written in a book, how do you know?"
Prabhupada: No, it is not in the book. It is accepted, all the authorities.
Ramesvara: But they would question everything.
Prabhupada: That is another thing.
Gargamuni: It requires faith ultimately, some faith.
Ramesvara: Especially in America today...
Prabhupada: Faith you must have. Because you have no faith in authority, therefore you are dull.
Ramesvara: Because all their authorities have cheated them. The President has cheated them, the bankers have cheated them...
Prabhupada: But they are not authorities. Authorities mean those who are in the parampara system. Evam parampara-praptam [Bg. 4.2].
Ramesvara: Of course, in America they have no experience with saintly men. There has never been a saintly man in the history of America. (laughter)
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gargamuni: They don't know the meaning of saintliness.
Prabhupada: But they know... Why they accept Lord Jesus Christ? But they do not believe even Jesus Christ.
Gargamuni: No, they don't believe.
Ramesvara: It's like you say. Jesus said "Thou shall not kill," and they started off by killing him.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: And ever since then they have continued their killing.
Prabhupada: Yes. Their intelligence is so sharp. (laughs) This is the basic principle of their civilization.
Nanda-kumara: They found some books now that... Theologians consider that they are books of the Bible that were omitted by the early Christian Church to keep the people in ignorance where Jesus states very clearly, "No meat."
Ramesvara: What book is that?
Nanda-kumara: The Essene Gospel of John the Baptist. It was translated from the original Aramaic scrolls. And it's in the Vatican library, but the Vatican doesn't...
Gargamuni: I've met some vegetarian Christians. I met them in Los Angeles when I was there.
Nanda-kumara: But in this... Jesus stated very strong. It is very strongly vegetarian.
Hari-sauri: Yes. It says in the Acts of the Apostles, actually, they stopped the Gentiles from taking anything with blood. They were told "No blood."
Gargamuni: I have met vegetarian Christians, and they say, "Thou shall not kill," so they don't kill anything, at least any animal.
Ramesvara: Very small minority.
Gargamuni: Yes. They're a very small group.
Ramesvara: No, they are killing their own babies in defiance of the Pope.
Prabhupada: That's all. And eating the fetus. So civilized, advanced, scientists. (laughs) Just see. Ludicrous.
Nanda-kumara: They found another book where Jesus spoke about reincarnation, about transmigration of the soul, but that was also omitted by the early... When Jesus set up the disciplic succession...
Ramesvara: What book is that?
Nanda-kumara: I read it in a theologians thing...
Gargamuni: But nobody know about these things. It's the Aquarian Gospel.
Ramesvara: That's not accepted.
Gargamuni: See, there's no disciplic succession, so no one can really know the actual truth.
Nanda-kumara: The disciplic succession was overthrown early in the Christian church.
Hari-sauri: After sixty years they had a meeting, and then they omitted certain teachings.
Nanda-kumara: That's when they added the philosophy that you get one chance. It's either go to heaven eternally or go to hell eternally. Jesus actually... Some people are saying Jesus never taught anything like that, but when the early church changed everything to keep the people in ignorance and keep their own position, they added that feature, that unless the people surrendered to them they would go to hell.
Ramesvara: Actually there is a new movie in America which shows that Jesus was not even religious. He was a political revolutionary trying to overthrow the Roman government, and his followers created the myth. And this is becoming a popular idea.
Hari-sauri: That is another concoction too.
Gargamuni: Nobody knows, because there's no disciplic acarya.
Ramesvara: The real point of that movie is there's no way to know anymore. Any theory now can be presented.
Hari-sauri: But at least if you look at what's there, in most of the Bibles anyway, the beginnings of Christ's movement are just like our own movement. All these men gave up all their material possessions. They went out and preached. And that was his general teaching too, that they should not worry for anything because God is supplying to everyone, even the birds and beasts. So why should they worry? Just go out and preach. That was his basic teaching to his twelve apostles.
Prabhupada: That is faithfulness in God. Why a preacher should be bothered about maintaining himself?
Ramesvara: Actually there is some good lessons to learn from them, because they were persecuted, they were killed by the government even. But they didn't give up their faith. They remained very faithful, the early Christians.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: And also later missionaries went all over the world alone, to Africa, all countries of the world, converting people, although it was very difficult. So they had a very good missionary spirit formerly. When I went to Fiji I saw many Christian churches in Fiji. Right next door to the house where Vasudeva lives there is a Christian tabernacle, and they wake up every morning at 4:30 and they have hymns-same practice as we have, but it's Christian hymns.
Hari-sauri: Along with all, that, though, they're allowed to please their senses in any way that they like. So their teaching doesn't really have much benefit for anyone. They're still doing all kinds of sinful activity. Now their idea is that if you accept Jesus, it means that you can carry on doing as many sinful activities as you like, but Jesus is going to take all the sinful reaction.
Ramesvara: Yes. "He died for us, so why should we suffer?" (laughter)
Prabhupada: Jesus Christ is the contractor. They say that "Our religion is very good. If you simply have faith in Jesus Christ, we can do anything."
Hari-sauri: "Let Christ continue suffering, and we'll enjoy."
Prabhupada: In Aurobindo asrama the same thing. Aurobindo said that "You simply think of me. Then you will be pure."
Gargamuni: One of our party went to this Pondicherry. He said the whole thing is simply propaganda. There's nothing there in this Auroville.
Ramesvara: What is Auroville?
Gargamuni: They're building a city. You've never heard of it? It's big, worldwide... Auroville. Building a city of spiritual life.
Ramesvara: Where?
Hari-sauri: Yes. That's all over the world. Aurobindo. That's in South India on the coast, Pondicherry.
Ramesvara: Who goes there? Westerners?
Gargamuni: Oh, yes. That's all that's there now. But there's only about twenty of them.
Prabhupada: Huh?
Gargamuni: Yeah, very few. And they asked our men... Because people started to become attracted and asking and looking at our books, so the in-charge asked our men, "Please leave."
Prabhupada: Accha?
Gargamuni: Yes.
Prabhupada: (laughs) You are dangerous. You are dangerous.
Gargamuni: Yes. They are trying to imitate our Mayapura project, but they have failed. Trying to make a community. And they are very much hated by the local people because they are not following any regulative principles. They drink, they smoke....
Prabhupada: They drink?
Gargamuni: Oh, yes. It's just a bunch of hippies now who are there. That's a complete bluff.
Prabhupada: The Aurobindo was a hippie. (laughter) He had that long hair, and he was victimized by that mother. She brought... She was young, and she brought money, and Aurobindo was killed. In the beginning he had some yogic practice, but since that mother came, woman can conquer any rascal. (laughs) So she also... She conquered, and then nobody was allowed to see him in his secluded meditation. Only this mother was allowed. She would supply food, supply... And nobody could see. And she would give darsana only one day in the year. He would not speak with anyone, and the disciples were advised, "Simply think of Aurobindo. You have nothing to do." That's it. So you have been there?
Gargamuni: I didn't go. But our library party, on their way to south, they stopped there because they thought maybe they could sell a standing order.
Prabhupada: So they did not.
Gargamuni: Well, they were quite shocked to find that the whole thing is a bluff. The propaganda about this Auroville just does not exist. They only have a few houses, and it's simply a few hippies who live there.
Hari-sauri: They make it out to be such a big project.
Gargamuni: They said our Mayapura project is more advanced.
Ramesvara: This is the only movement now. All these other attempts have completely failed, at least in America. All the Indian teachers that have come to America are being exposed.
Prabhupada: But they say Transcendental Meditation is going...
Hari-sauri: Six million.
Ramesvara: Oh, that's big because you don't have to give up anything. I met some of my old friends in New York, and I debated with them. And their philosophy is that this Transcendental Meditation is based on natural process of God consciousness, and our effort is all artificial. We are giving up meat, giving up sexthis is artificial. Their philosophy is that "If you continue meditating, one day automatically you'll give up these things. So why do it prematurely?"
Prabhupada: No, but if one day you have to give it up, why not prematurely?
Ramesvara: Give it up when you are... By the Transcendental Meditation, twenty minutes a day, automatically you are purifying yourself naturally. Therefore that is more perfect.
Prabhupada: No, if I can purify immediately, what is the wrong?
Ramesvara: He said it creates stress. By doing it artificially you create too much stress.
Prabhupada: "No, we don't feel any... We do not feel any stress. You feel because you are unable to do it. But we don't feel it. We have given up... Since our spiritual master has said, we have given up, immediately. But you cannot do it," say.
Ramesvara: That's it. And they're envious, so therefore he's trying to find fault. He says, "You are creating so much stress that you are actually blocking your mind from the higher realms of meditation."
Prabhupada: No, that is... "You are saying. Our mind is not blocked. We are making progress. You are saying that because you cannot do it. That is your deficiency. We can do it immediately."
Hari-sauri: They can only do it twenty minutes a day.
Prabhupada: If that is the goal, that you have to give up, so we give up immediately, without any difficulty.
Ramesvara: But they're making propaganda against this Transcendental Meditation also. The biggest Christian preacher in Americahis name is Billy Grahamhe is a good friend of former president Nixon and very wealthy. And he has stated publicly that this Transcendental Meditation... [break]
Prabhupada: ...sees practically.
Gargamuni: These people, though, who follow these processes, they don't dedicate their lives. They follow it for two years, then they get married and they forget the whole thing. While they're students...
Prabhupada: It is a hobby.
Gargamuni: Yes. In college. In college they do it, and when they're out of college they get married and go to work. They forget it.
Ramesvara: Many ordinary businessmen and middle-class people have spent the money and practiced Transcendental Meditation for a little bit, and they say it has helped them. It has given them peace of mind for a little bit.
Prabhupada: That can give temporarily.
Ramesvara: But there's one hatha-yoga teacher from India who's a little well known.
Gargamuni: Yogi Bhajan?
Ramesvara: No. He's different. He is a sex teacher. But there is this one other hatha-yoga teacher. I can't remember his name. He's... Visnu Devananda. And he is publishing pamphlets against Maharishi, that "This is completely bogus. In the name of meditation it is completely fraud, bluff, bogus." And he mails out these pamphlets all over America. He takes out ads in the newspapers trying to expose that "This is not according to any Indian scripture."
Prabhupada: Yes, that's a fact.
Ramesvara: But his movement is so nonsense, he has women sannyasis. Swami Mayadevi (laughter). I've seen a picture of his advertisement. "Join our camp..."
Prabhupada: The woman sannyasi, Ramakrishna Mission has.
Ramesvara: He's... What is it? Sivananda? Divine Light. They advertise, "Come to our summer camp for yoga practice, and our women will teach you." They are swamis.
Gargamuni: His students sued him one time because he preaches brahmacarya.
Prabhupada: I have seen their sannyasi kissing woman on the street.
Ramesvara: On the street.
Prabhupada: Yes. He came to see me in London, and I saw in the street there was some woman; he is kissing her. I have seen sannyasi.
Nanda-kumara: This Rajneesh makes woman sannyasis too.
Prabhupada: Rajneesh makes husband and wife sannyasi. That we saw, that, in Poona?
Hari-sauri: Yes. We stayed at one man's house, and his brother was a follower of Rajneesh.
Prabhupada: Sannyasi.
Hari-sauri: After a day and a half Prabhupada convinced the guy that Rajneesh was just a rascal. He came that morning we left, and he admitted Rajneesh was just a rascal and was just cheating everyone. "Neo-sannyasa," they call it.
Ramesvara: Seems as soon as these people die, like this Sai Baba, Maharishi, then their movement will be finished.
Prabhupada: And another rascal will come. (laughs)
Gargamuni: Now there's another Sai Baba. He has the same hairs and everything. He's in competition. He's called something else. He's also from the South.
Ramesvara: He does magic?
Gargamuni: Yes. Same type of thing.
Ramesvara: Ash coming from his dhoti.
Gargamuni: Yes. But Sai Baba is under fire now because they say that he produces small things which he can hide in his robe. So they ask, "Why can't you make a big thing? Like a big pumpkin or something big? Why only apples and oranges and small things? (laughter) Why don't you make a big thing?" Some scientists at Bangalore University, they have started...
Prabhupada: He doesn't deny.
Gargamuni: No. He says, "I have come. You can accept me or reject me."
Nanda-kumara: Some people say they put a picture of him on their altar, and honey drips from the picture, and they collect it, and it gives them health.
Prabhupada: His bodily feature is just like raksasa.
Devotees: Oh, yes!
Ramesvara: It's ugly! And in Jagannath Puri I saw one shop which was selling pictures of him. One of the pictures he was wearing cosmetics like a woman. His hair was cropped like a woman. It was the most ugly thing I ever saw.
Hari-sauri: He was called the "Universal Mother." A picture of Sai Baba looking like a woman, and then they put "The Universal Mother."
Gargamuni: This Tarun Kanti Ghosh, he wears a ring, Sai Baba ring. He is wearing. We always make joke with him.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Gargamuni: "This is not Mahaprabhu. How you can wear this? This is foreign." So he laughs. We make joke with him, "Why you are wearing this ring? This is not in your custom to follow this..."
Prabhupada: He is hodge-podge. But he has got love for Caitanya. That will save.
Gargamuni: He does.
Ramesvara: But this Maharishi, he is capturing American money but he is not using it to spread Indian culture.
Prabhupada: Religious...(?)
Ramesvara: You are the only one who is using that formula, "American wealth, Indian culture."
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: This Maharishi is using "American wealth, Maharishi culture." He's not doing anything valuable with his money.
Hari-sauri: He's increasing his own name and fame.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Indian: (Bengali)
Prabhupada: Yes. [break] No, people have become so dull-headed that they are believing all these nonsense.
Hari-sauri: It is brainwashing.
Prabhupada: No. The brainwashing... They are making brainwashing that "From garbage, newspapers; scrap, they'll make food."
Hari-sauri: Oh, scientists.
Prabhupada: Accha. And you said that they are drinking their own urine?
Hari-sauri: Yes. The astronauts.
Prabhupada: It is a fact?
Ramesvara: Yes. They recycled it.
Hari-sauri: They recycled it. After they passed urine, they put it through a machine that was supposed to purify it, and then they could drink it again.
Prabhupada: And still, they have to go to the Mars. Just see how degraded they have become. By drinking urine, they are going to Mars and bringing report, all false propaganda to keep the prestige of the scientists.
Hari-sauri: Yes. It's just a colossal hoax.
Ramesvara: No, they will go on and on with their bluffs. They will try to bluff that they are creating life, just like they've bluffed they've gone to other planets.
Prabhupada: Everything bluff. I never believed them. I never believed them. In my Easy Journey to..., I have, ten years before, I have already rejected. Simply bluff.
Ramesvara: Yes. You've written many times in your books that we will never accept this, that they have gone to other planets and found them empty.
Prabhupada: So both Arundhati and Palika, they're in period. So this girl...?
Hari-sauri: Abhirama's wife.
Prabhupada: Wife. She knows?
Hari-sauri: She knows how to cook, yes. She got trained up by Palika.
Prabhupada: In the cooker. And she'll cook today?
Hari-sauri: Yes.
Prabhupada: This was suitable.
Ramesvara: What to do? Every month this happens. They both at the same time every month?
Hari-sauri: Not usually.
Prabhupada: No... So the today's standard is nice. So she must take instruction or you do it. This was all right. We shall continue this standard for the time being. Yes. So if he's not come back, then wherefrom they got this puffed rice?
Hari-sauri: Well, that man from Haridaspur went and got that. That Prabhu Svarupa, he went and got the muri.
Prabhupada: Wherefrom?
Hari-sauri: I don't know. I couldn't make head nor tail of what he was saying.
Prabhupada: Ask him. Is it fresh?
Hari-sauri: He just said he went out and begged some from somewhere. I don't know.
Prabhupada: Oh, begged from some house.
Hari-sauri: That's what I made out from him. But this boy should be back very soon. The boy that went out to do the shopping should be back very soon. They took a van.
Ramesvara: There was one question I had, Srila Prabhupada. You have written in the Third Volume of the First Canto different instructions for the age of Kali, how there'll be compulsory marriage and so on and so on. And you mentioned about the gold standard, that this is very bad, this artificial standard of monetary exchange.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. It is very bad.
Ramesvara: In the future this is something that we should try to correct.
Prabhupada: You should introduce coin, real money.
Hari-sauri: Real gold coins. No paper.
Prabhupada: Anyone has got money... It is fact. And what is this nonsense, keeping some paper and thinking he has got money? How cheating it is going on, from government's side. And therefore artificial inflation. You can print, so the price is increased. Because you haven't got to pay him real money, you print and pay him, and he will ask, "Give me this money. Then I'll supply." "All right, take." You print and pay.
Ramesvara: It's definitely a means that the government has for controlling. Because they can withdraw money, pull it back out of circulation by increasing the interest the banks give, or they can get more money in...
Prabhupada: Anything done artificially.
Ramesvara: They control the amount of interest on loans. It's all standardized from what they call the Federal Reserve system. This was introduced during the Depression by the bankers.
Prabhupada: Whatever they do, when you receive money in the paper it has no value. Bad money. It is bad money. It is not good money.
Ramesvara: Actually most purchasing in America is done on credit now. Even a step beyond paper money is credit, no money, buying on no money, loans.
Prabhupada: That is in India also.
Ramesvara: We don't find these things in Vedic culture too much.
Prabhupada: There was never paper money.
Hari-sauri: No. They used to...
Prabhupada: That barter system. You have got rice; I have got something else. So I give you something; you give me something.
Hari-sauri: But isn't inflation possible even with coins? Even if you have gold coins, isn't inflation still possible?
Prabhupada: No, gold is acceptable by everyone.
Ramesvara: The main point is the barter system.
Hari-sauri: Yes, well its value is recognized by its purchasing power.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: So you can alter... Say, you have one gold coin. You can alter what it...
Prabhupada: No. If you introduce real metal coin, then there will be no inflation.
Hari-sauri: There's only a certain amount of metal.
Prabhupada: That's all right. The exchange... The more demand, more price. So suppose here is a spectacle. I am demanding ten rupees. So both of you are customer, and you are asking for this spectacle. Then I am increasing my price. So if you can pay me by printing paper, you'll accept any price. That means artificially price is increased. Is it not?
Ramesvara: Yes.
Hari-sauri: So the idea is that with coins the man who has the goods, he can't...
Prabhupada: Therefore... Suppose he has got ten coins; you have got ten coins. I am wanting fifteen coins. So there will be no competition. I have to accept either from you or you, ten coins.
Hari-sauri: Right. Because there's only that much money.
Prabhupada: But if I increase price and if you print... If you have got power to print, "All right. Take fifteen coins, er, fifteen rupees." But you print and pay me. But if the gold, the coin, is there, you cannot increase on that.
Hari-sauri: He can't increase the price of the product, and the man who got..., 'cause there's only a certain amount of money there.
Prabhupada: But I can increase the price provided you pay me. But by printing, it is easier. But if you have to collect coins, that will be difficult, so there will be no artificial increase of...
Hari-sauri: Yes. Coins is a check...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: ...on charging too much.
Prabhupada: That is wanted. And these rascals, they are artificially printing paper as money. And I am a rascal; I'm demanding more because I have got customer.
Ramesvara: The difference between Vedic culture and..., the Krsna conscious culture and the modern culture is very, very dramatic, very big difference. So the transforming of society...
Prabhupada: And besides that, if we concentrate in farm project there will be no need of exchange, because I'll be satisfied with my products. That's all. There is no need of exchange. Whatever I need, I get in my farm.
Ramesvara: Weaving, cloth.
Prabhupada: Everything I get. So I haven't got to go outside for exchange. If you are satisfied in your farmI am satisfiedthen where is question of exchange? There is no need of artificial... So this banking, "fanking," everything will collapse automatically. There is no money, who is going to keep money in the bank?
Hari-sauri: Who needs it?
Prabhupada: (laughs) So this artificial way of banking, that will be also collapsed.
Hari-sauri: This is revolutionary.
Ramesvara: It's very hard for the mind to...
Prabhupada: No, simply do this.
Ramesvara: Such a dramatic transformation of society.
Prabhupada: Yes. Whatever it may be... We should be satisfied locally by our food, by our cloth, by our milk. That's all. Let the whole world go to hell. We don't care. If you want to save yourself also, you do this. Here is an example. If you want artificial life, city life, and hellish life, you do. But we shall live like this. This is the ideal life.
Hari-sauri: But still, we're going out to attract people to come to our life-style.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: We're still going out to attract people to come and live like us.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Well, even more than that, we know that we have the secret to real life, so it's our duty to actually... Just like you say...
Prabhupada: That is preaching. That is preaching.
Ramesvara: ...the surgeon, he must cut.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: The doctor must...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: ...save the patient. It's his duty.
Prabhupada: No artificial dealing. Purge out.
Hari-sauri: When one actually has the power, he can do that.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hari-sauri: So by our preaching now, we have to try and establish a Krsna consciousness government first through the democratic system.
Ramesvara: You said, "Think in terms of the whole world, not just one nation. That is our preaching." So you are training us to think very big, global.
Prabhupada: We keep the ideal style of life. You learn and do it. I am not encroaching upon your independence, but if you want to be happy, you follow. This is our process. Apani acari prabhu jiveri siksaya. You be happy, very ideally, and people will learn. But this can be possible only on the basis of Krsna consciousness. If you make minus Krsna consciousness this thing, it will never be possible. Then it will not be possible. All these scheme will be successful if there is Krsna consciousness.
Hari-sauri: Only if the chanting and prasadam is there.
Prabhupada: Prasadam, Deity worship, devotional life... Then it will be all right.
Hari-sauri: Yes. Gandhi could never implement his program.
Prabhupada: Nobody can do. They simply... Even... What is that? Marx? He could not. There is no real attraction. Artificial, by force. Here the real attraction is Krsna. So other thing he doesn't mind: "Let there be little inconvenience. I don't mind."
Hari-sauri: A devotee is actually getting a higher taste. He's getting some real enjoyment, so he doesn't care for the other things.
Prabhupada: So unless there is enjoyment he cannot stick. But that enjoyment is Krsna.
Hari-sauri: Just that chanting is enough. It's just so much nectar.
Prabhupada: No, everythingDeity worship, chanting, kirtana, preaching, publishing, distributingeverything.
Ramesvara: This requires superintelligence. Just like, say, in Los Angeles there are two hundred devotees. It is taxing our brains how to give proper engagement to every one of them.
Prabhupada: Well, this engagement is: "Go and sell books." That engagement is already there.
Ramesvara: Yes, but some are not qualified, some householders...
Prabhupada: It is not the question of quality, of... It doesn't matter whether he sells one book or hundred books. It doesn't matter. Let him be engaged, that's all.
Ramesvara: That's what I'm saying. To find the proper engagement, the best utilization of every man's...
Prabhupada: This is very good engagement, very good engagement. Go door to door. I don't mind if you no sell. But you have gone. That's all. I don't mind. It is not business, that "Because you could not sell anything, your salary will be dismissed." No. There is no such question.
Ramesvara: But then they feel dissatisfied. Then they would prefer to do something else where they can perform better. They can accomplish something more.
Prabhupada: No, no. No, no, no.
Hari-sauri: Our devotees tend to work on a fruitive basis.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: If they don't get some result from their activity, they become discouraged.
Ramesvara: In other words, sometimes...
Prabhupada: Now, who said that "You don't bring money"? But I am not discouraging you, even if you don't bring money.
Gargamuni: When we took sannyasa, you told us to go door to door.
Prabhupada: That's all!
Gargamuni: We brought some fruits and some change, and Prabhupada was very satisfied.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gargamuni: We went door to door for two hours.
Ramesvara: No, I mean it is practical that if a man comes with artistic talents, then I will try to engage him as an artist. Different talents...
Prabhupada: No, engage him. There must be engagement. Either as a artist or bookseller, there must be engagement.
Ramesvara: According to different talents.
Prabhupada: Nobody should be allowed to keep himself lazy. That is not good. Niyatam kuru karma tvam. That is... Find out this verse. Oh, he has taken away?
Hari-sauri: Bhagavad-gita. Oh, I can get another Gita.
Gargamuni: And they will be successful.
Prabhupada: Yes. Why not?
Gargamuni: If they are sincere, they will be successful.
Ramesvara: So it is little taxing...
Prabhupada: Not taxing. I was doing alone this. I was printing Back to Godhead and going to the press. I was writing. I was posting.
Gargamuni: In one room you had many corners for your different projects. (chuckles)
Ramesvara: But if you have hundreds and hundreds of devotees in one center, then you have to be concerned with their spiritual life, how they are engaged, how they're supported.
Prabhupada: Yes. Spiritual life...
Ramesvara: So the more people that come, the more intelligence is required to manage.
Prabhupada: We can accommodate more people also. There is no difficulty.
Gargamuni: Our Mayapura can hold five hundred men now.
Prabhupada: Already?
Gargamuni: No, you said that one building...
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gargamuni: ...we can hold five hundred men.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Gargamuni: So we are waiting for these men. If they have so many extra men for taxing, then send them here.
Ramesvara: No, that's not the point at all. That's not at all the point.
Hari-sauri: What was that verse again, Srila Prabhupada, that verse you wanted?
Prabhupada: Yes. What subject matter? Niyatam.
Ramesvara: I'm thinking that by selling all these books, gradually hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of people will want us to give them some advice. They'll want to elect Krsna conscious leaders. They'll want us to guide the society. So it will require great intelligence...
Prabhupada: First of all, we have to know where he is. Then we can give. What is his position? Then we can give him. Just like diagnosis. You have to see what is the disease. Then we give medicine.
Ramesvara: One of the symptoms of the disease is that all of the people are engaged in artificial work, and the whole world is interdependent. It is very complex system of world trade, world finance.
Prabhupada: But we have nothing to do with that.
Ramesvara: But since the rest of the world is going on like that, then to transform it, it's very...
Prabhupada: No, we say, "You are embarrassed. You come to us. Live with us. You get your food, and whatever service you can do, that's all right. Come here." That's all. We'll send in one of our farms or in temple. Let him be trained up. And if he is actually serious, then have engagement. There is no difficulty. "And if you want that 'I shall work in this way,' that is not possible. You have to work in our way." Then there is unlimited opportunity.
Hari-sauri: You want that verse?
Prabhupada: Niyata.
"Perform your prescribed duty, for action is better than inaction. A man cannot even maintain his physical body without work."
Prabhupada: Krsna never said that "You sit down, lazy." You must work. And that is intelligence, how to engage a person in some work. That requires governing body. That is intelligence. They should be ready to work, and your intelligence will engage them. And there is sufficient. Why you are constructing so many centers? There is enough work to do. Just like here. All people are coming, and each one can be preached, each one can be convinced of the philosophy.
Gargamuni: In India there are 500,000 villages. So we need so many men for going.
Prabhupada: Yes. And we want that all these village people may come daily and hear and chant Hare Krsna.
Gargamuni: They were in Assam, one of our traveling parties, and they met a Gaudiya Math temple managed by Madhava Maharaja. And there were three or four brahmacaris in the village, and they had the whole village actually engaged. They saw some of the activities. So they were engaged in making the village Krsna conscious in their way. So similarly, we can do the same. Prabhupada: Yes.
Gargamuni: Just like Gaura-Govinda, he's bringing many villagers here.
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He's good preacher.
Hari-sauri: Yes, he's doing nicely.
Gargamuni: And there's 500,000 such villages all over India. And they're more pious. In Sundarban, when Bhavananda went to the Sundarban jungle, they had tremendous reception.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Hari-sauri: Very good reception.
Prabhupada: Everywhere.
Gargamuni: And yet there is no roads. There's no lights there. Nothing is there.
Prabhupada: India is good field. Yes. India is good field.
Gargamuni: At least, we can use one hundred travel... You once told me and Tamala that we should have a hundred jeeps and send them all over India, one hundred jeeps.
Prabhupada: Hm. Now you are seeing that there is possibility of preaching. And even if he cannot speak local language, still he'll be received.
Gargamuni: Yes. And all of our magazines, at least in Bengal, are being... [break]
Ramesvara: ...to organize the whole world to cheating, then, it seems, we can be given the intelligence to organize it for Lord Caitanya.
Prabhupada: You can also cheat them. (chuckles) From maya's way, bring then to Krsna's way. That's all. That is also cheating. Tell them, "Yes, you live like this."
Gargamuni: In Assam there is excellent field.
Prabhupada: Assam.
Gargamuni: Yes. They're all Vaisnava. They worship Lord Caitanya.
Prabhupada: Especially in Manipur.
Gargamuni: Yes. Especially in Manipur. There we could not go, though. Our men were not allowed to... They could not get a permit. They got as far as Shillong. They did fifteen standing orders in a few days there. They were only there for a few days. That used to be a British capital.
Prabhupada: Where?
Gargamuni: Shillong.
Prabhupada: Shillong, yes.
Gargamuni: A very beautiful city, they said. And they sold books to at least one dozen book stores. They took Bhagavad-gitas. They did very well in Assam. In ten days they did twenty-six standing orders in three cities, Gauhati, Shillong and then Siliguri in northern Bengal.
Prabhupada: This is very much astonishing that they do not touch religious book, but our books secure. (laughs)
Gargamuni: Yes. Yes. They have no budget to purchase religious books. They only want technical books. But when they see our books, they cannot say no. That has been the response.
Hari-sauri: Spiritual potency.
Prabhupada: Technical books... (chuckles) Now that, my nephew Govinda, he's a watch repair.
Gargamuni: Oh, yes. He fixes our watches.
Prabhupada: Ah, ah.
Gargamuni: We go to him.
Prabhupada: Yes. (laughing) So he has written one book about his experience, and it is selling like anything, because it is technical. Yes, he gets for every edition three thousand, five thousand, like that. That is his extra income. But because it is technical, people purchase it.
Gargamuni: Yes. Especially in India now, that's all they want to read, is anything on technology, any field.
Ramesvara: They have been brainwashed.
Prabhupada: No, in the Western country also. Western country, now this higher English, higher mathematics, higher philosophy is no student admission. Nobody's going. They're going to close.
Hari-sauri: Yeah. Philosophy and all the arts.
Prabhupada: No, anything higher study, don't care for it.
Ramesvara: It's true. Technical studies and business...
Prabhupada: Our Hayagriva is not getting any employment. Nobody's interested. "Eh. What is the use of higher mathematics, all this, these things? We have to earn money."
Ramesvara: Physics, computer technology, all these things are big.
Gargamuni: And they're prepared to spend lakhs. Some of these technical books cost more than a hundred rupees a volume.
Prabhupada: Yes. They're charging.
Gargamuni: But they'll buy them.
Prabhupada: What is the use of philosophizing? Even that Professor O'Connell? He came to me, that "Why don't you give some students?" Means he's going to be dismissed very soon. But he has no students.
Hari-sauri: He came and asked Prabhupada why don't we send our men to the university for Ph.D's.
Prabhupada: I could understand his position. Now he's going to be dismissed.
Ramesvara: No, it's a fact that people go to college in America, but they cannot get good jobs when they graduate. If they have not taken specialized training in engineering or something...
Prabhupada: That is technical, technology.
Ramesvara: ...technical. But if they have a general education, they cannot get a good job.
Gargamuni: And this is... maya's kick in India is that they read these books, they go to school, and when they come out there's no job.
Prabhupada: No job.
Gargamuni: And they have to become these... They work in the hotels, the five stars. Hotel work.
Prabhupada: No. There was a news, "For five hundred post there was three lakhs' application."
Hari-sauri: In the railways.
Prabhupada: In the railways. There were five hundred posts vacant, and the application was three lakhs. Every time this is the... Many educated... Therefore they became Naxalites.
Gargamuni: Yes. These Naxalites come from the educated classes.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: What is that Naral...?
Prabhupada: Naxalite means...
Gargamuni: Terrorists. Communists.
Prabhupada: Regular dacoits, thieves, rogues. "Pay me; otherwise kill you." And if you don't, kill you. That's all.
Ramesvara: That's the trend, then, everywhere, because unemployment is increasing.
Prabhupada: And especially in your country it will be dangerous because these blacks, if they don't get employment, they will create havoc, these blacks. And they are not civilized. They want money, and if they don't get money, then they will create havoc.
Gargamuni: Money and liquor.
Hari-sauri: Yes. If they do get money, they just buy it.
Prabhupada: Money they get. But they can live. But there is no culture. They want liquor. So these rascals do not know how we are making human civilization. They do not see it, that without any fixed income we are maintaining such a huge establishment all over the world, without any fixed income. How we are doing? We are not thieves, we are not rogues. We are all gentlemen.
Gargamuni: In India they say the CIA is funding you.
Prabhupada: Yes. They may say anything, but actually what we are?
Ramesvara: In America they are supporting the unemployed through federal and state welfare, which is paid for by tax money. So the more the unemployment increases, the more the taxes...
Prabhupada: Taxes increase.
Ramesvara: ...have to increase. Otherwise these people will starve.
Gargamuni: And thousands of people live off the welfare checks.
Ramesvara: There is big scandals in America about cheating on the welfare roles to get free money from the government.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: That's a big scandal in America, very difficult to control because there are so many people involved.
Hari-sauri: I remember in England that was a big thing too, the welfare state. So many people, they're not working, and they're getting more money from the government by not working than they would by going to work. So they...
Gargamuni: Years ago there was a scandal in the States, and in the Midwest they found a family who was receiving a total of thirty thousand dollars a year in welfare checks.
Prabhupada: Just see.
Ramesvara: This problem practically ruined Australia's economy. Five years ago Australia was a very wealthy country, and then they elected a new government, socialist government, and they began increasing all sorts of benefits, pensions, welfare benefits. And millions of people... Not millions, but many working people stopped working because it was easier just to get the free money. In this way...
Prabhupada: So you should be very careful. Because you are giving free prasadam, similarly all lazy fellow may not come and take free prasada. Therefore engagement must be there. Otherwise this lazy fellow will come, sleep and take prasada.
Gargamuni: In Mayapura we feed free on Saturday, Sunday. And during the week we feed those who work, those who work, them we feed, those who do service.
Prabhupada: No, one day, two days, we give prasadam. But regularly we give prasada and they'll remain lazy.
Ramesvara: So in Australia they kicked out the government, completely kicked them out.
Prabhupada: Accha?
Ramesvara: And had a new government formed, because they had created a huge debt, federal debt. They were spending much more money than they had, and they were simply increasing the taxes more and more, and the people just kicked them out.
Prabhupada: It is closed?
Hari-sauri: Yes. The year before they got kicked out, I was distributing magazines at one political rally. The Prime Minister came to Perth. And when he came there all the farmers came, and they were so angry, they were throwing rotten eggs at him and tin cans and all kinds of things.
Prabhupada: The farmers.
Hari-sauri: Yeah.
Ramesvara: They devalued the Australian dollar very much. The Australian dollar used to be worth maybe...
Prabhupada: More than American dollar.
Ramesvara: One dollar, forty cents.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: Or one dollar, sixty cents. Now it is almost equal.
Prabhupada: Oh. So much.
Ramesvara: Yes. They had to do that because their economy was ruined. He had taken away... This man was crazy. He had taken away all the tariffs, so that foreign countries were supplying their products in Australia, and the local businessmen..., local manufacturers were going out of business. So many problems. And they're so proud of their modern culture, modern education and advancement, but they're being blackmailed by the Arabs. The Arab countries are considered very undeveloped, and the Western world is so proud how advanced they are, yet they are now being blackmailed by the Arabs for oil. So what is the use of their advancement? And now whatever the Arabs want, they have to do.
Prabhupada: I think he is not returning. He's gone forever. Gargamuni: Who?
Hari-sauri: Devi-dhama. Oh, no. He's back. He's back.
Gargamuni: Just now.
Prabhupada: So what did he bring?
Ramesvara: So they have become completely dependent on oil.
Prabhupada: Anything artificial, it will break. You cannot make a scheme of mental concoction. That will not endure. You take standard it will be beneficial. The whole world is in chaotic condition because they have so many artificial way of living.
Hari-sauri: You want some channa?
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: They brought some fresh channa. You want some of that too?
Prabhupada: Bring separately.
Hari-sauri: With the peanuts. Separate.
Prabhupada: The reason is: their real business they have forgotten. Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah. They are trying to be happy by adjusting this external energy. They do not know what is happiness, what for happiness is meant for, nothing, simply manufacturing ideas which is external. Durasaya. Durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah.
Hari-sauri: Do you want the peanuts roasted in ghee or just dry roasting?
Prabhupada: No, no, they are... They... It is roasted.
Hari-sauri: They didn't get already roasted.
Gargamuni: Dry roasted.
Hari-sauri: They're roasted in the shells.
Prabhupada: Roasted in the shells?
Hari-sauri: I think that's how they do it.
Prabhupada: Then it is all right.
Hari-sauri: So just straight from the shells is all right.
Prabhupada: That's all. Get out from the shell.
Hari-sauri: You don't want them heating or anything?
Prabhupada: No, no.
Gargamuni: They roast it in the sand. Dry roast it.
Prabhupada: That is good.
Gargamuni: (pause) The nature's law is that if you are not Krsna conscious, you'll be put into trouble. Yes. The law is there. That is daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14]. You cannot surpass.
Gargamuni: They're always being harassed.
Prabhupada: And they are trying to save harassment by nature's law. That is impossible. That is ahankara-vimudhatma, rascal, and under false prestige they are trying to save themselves. And ultimately crusheddeath. Struggling, struggling... Now, last worddeath. Finish. Now, according to your karma, "All right, you just become a tree." Finish. "Stand up here for five thousand years." This is nature's... And these rascal scientists have no knowledge of this, "Wherefrom the tree comes? Why the tree is standing there for five thousand years, and I have got good car? Why this difference of position? He is also living entity; I am also." They have no brain. That is also living entity. "This tree is dead." Dead means it has life. So wherefrom the life came? Who made him a tree and made him a prime minister? Who made him? They cannot answer all these questions. Simply blindly following their own mental concoction. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg. 3.27]. Everything is there.
mayadhyaksena prakrtih
suyate sa-caracaram
hetunanena kaunteya
jagad viparivartate
[Bg. 9.10]
Who cares for all these instructions? By illusion everyone is thinking, "My these happy days will go on." And one slap: "Get out! Become a tree." This is all imagination? Mythology? "I am finished." The Russians, they have concluded, "Oh, this life finishedeverything is finished." One sense, one, everything is finished because this so-called happy life is finished. Very dangerous civilization to keep the human society in darkness. (aside:) The draft is coming from up. That you cannot stop.
Gargamuni: We can put some cloth here maybe. I can feel. If we put some cloth here, some dhoti... You have a dhoti?
Prabhupada: No... Better you cover yourself. That's all.
Gargamuni: When I was in Kathmandu, in the hotel I was staying there was some draft, and I put one cloth and...
Prabhupada: That is possible.
Gargamuni: It insulated. If you have a dhoti, we can put it up here.
Prabhupada: No, why such dhoti? They'll fall down. Where'll you get so much dhoti.
Gargamuni: No, no, if we fold it up, we can put it...
Prabhupada: That's all right, but it is from all sides. Better give me my wrapper. That will... Yes. Any one will do. So document is registered or not?
Devotee: Not registered.
Prabhupada: Why?
Devotee: I mean, the dukas(?) had just come back. [break]
Prabhupada: Somebody asked him?
Ramesvara: That's a question I meant to ask, because that question will start coming up in America. They will say, "Krsna is an ordinary man. He was killed by some hunter."
Prabhupada: So what do you answer?
Ramesvara: We haven't been asked yet. The answer is very difficult to explain to them.
Prabhupada: Yesterday I was answering. You were not present?
Ramesvara: No. (aside:) Were you here?
Hari-sauri: No. It was during darsana.
Prabhupada: Hm. What did I answer?
Hari-sauri: I wasn't here.
Prabhupada: How do you answer?
Gargamuni: Well, first we have to explain that Krsna has a transcendental body. If they don't understand that, then how can we explain Krsna's disappearance?
Prabhupada: Therefore I am asking how would you explain. The answer is that we living entities, we are part and parcel of Krsna. We do not die, na jayate na mriyate va, kadacit, at any time. We do not take birth; we do not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Even by destruction of this body, we do not die. You know this? So we are part and parcel. If we are eternal, how Krsna can be...? Hm? If my finger is eternal, how the body is not eternal? How the body can be dead? So why did He die like that, appearing as dead? That is His lila. That He has, so many lilas. So why this lila? Just to cheat you. You are atheist, and to keep you atheist forever, so that in your life after life you'll not understand Krsna, therefore He is doing, just to cheat you. Because you are atheist, you cannot think of Krsna properly. To keep you in darkness forever He manifests this lila.
Hari-sauri: But why would God want to keep the living entities in darkness?
Prabhupada: Because you want to be. You are such a rascal. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Mudha janmani janmani mam aprapya [Bg. 16.20]. This envious atheist class life after life will not be able to understand Krsna. For this purpose... Find out that verse.
Ramesvara: This is very good, because I know this question will come up now.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Ramesvara: They will find out that there is an Indian...
Prabhupada: The atheist class...
Ramesvara: Yes. They'll find out, "Oh, it says God died. What is this?" Then they'll challenge, that "This is not God. Krsna is ordinary man."
Prabhupada: What is that?
asurim yonim apanna
mudha janmani janmani
mam aprapyaiva kaunteya
tato yanty adhamam gatim
[Bg. 16.20]
"Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence."
Prabhupada: Just to keep you everlastingly in darkness He shows this lila, that "See? I am dying. You are right that I am a man." Avajananti mam mudha [Bg. 9.11]. "You rascal, mudha, you remain in that condition." This is explanation. Otherwise how Krsna can die? We do not die, His part and parcel. And how He can die?
Gargamuni: Well, they will try and separate Krsna from His soul, His body from His soul.
Prabhupada: Whatever you do, that is for you. It is not Krsna's actual position. It is for you: "Yes. You see? I am dying." Just like sometimes Hindu-Muslim riot, many Deities of Krsna, all broken. So the Muhammadans, they think, "Now Hindu's Deity I have broken. Finished."
Hari-sauri: "God is dead."
Prabhupada: "God is dead." So it is like that. By breaking the Deity, he thinks that "Now Hindu's Krsna is dead now, finished. We have finished." (laughs) But does it mean that he has broken the Deity, therefore Krsna is finished? But he thinks like that, "Yes, we have finished the Hindu Deity." So that he will continue his foolishness that "These people worship idol and we can break that, finish." This is the answer.
Ramesvara: This will be very difficult for them to understand.
Prabhupada: So how they will understand, atheist?
Ramesvara: They cannot understand anything.
Prabhupada: They cannot understand. So keep them in darkness. This is the only way. Mudha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20], life after life. [break] Mudha janmani janmani. In another place Krsna said, bahuni me janmani tava carjuna, atitani tava carjuna.
Hari-sauri: Oh, yes.
Ramesvara: But there is another way they can understand also. Just like in Christianity, they all believe Jesus was killed and then immediately he was alive again. So in the same way...
Hari-sauri: After three days.
Prabhupada: Resurrection.
Ramesvara: Yes. So in the same way Krsna also was appearing again during...?
Prabhupada: No, no, Krsna...
Ramesvara: Lord Caitanya's lila is Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna is never dead. Just like sun. Sun is never out of the sky. It is in my eyes I see that sun is gone. Formerly these rascals were believing sun is dead at night. The Christians believed like that. Is it not? Some of the Christians believed that at night, sun is dead. And the world is square, flat. This is their knowledge. Lord Buddha, he rejected Vedas. Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam. We were being taught that "You cannot deny the authority of Vedas," and Lord Buddha, he denied the authority of Vedas. But the devotees, they are worshiping: kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira jaya jagadisa hare: "Lord Buddha, we can understand your pastime. Still, you are Lord. I offer my obeisances unto you." So the devotees can understand. You cannot understand why Lord Buddha denied the authority of Vedasto keep you in darkness. He wanted to stop animal killing, and he preached ahimsa, nonviolence. That was his mission. Now these rascals came forward that "In the yajna vidhi animal-killing is recommended. So why you are stopping animal-killing?" The Buddha... Buddha replied, "I don't care for your Vedas." Does it mean that he did not care? Veda na maniya bauddha haila nastika. He played like that, that "I am nastika. I don't believe in your Vedas." But actually he's not. His mission was different. But these rascals will not understand why he is denying the authority of Vedas. So they're atheists. Sanmohaya sura-dvisam. Lord Buddha appeared to cheat the atheist class of men. Sanmohaya sura-dvisam. Sura-dvisam means those who are envious of the believers, sura. They are called sura. And those who do not believe in God, they are called asura. Just to bewilder them that "Here is incarnation..." They do not accept incarnation. They do not accept God. Where is the question of incarnate? "Here is our leader." So they did not believe in God. And Buddha said, "Never mind. There is no God. You haven't got to believe in God. You believe me or not?" "Yes, sir, I believe you." That is cheating. He's God. He's supporting that "Don't believe in God. But believe me." (laughs) This is cheating. He supported them: "Yes, there is no God. But what I say, you believe?" "Yes. What you say, we shall believe." This is cheating. Sanmohaya sura-dvisam. Mohaya. So God has to deal with so many rascals, fools, in this material world. Sometimes He displays His pastime like that. Therefore who will understand? Only the devotees will understand. So you do not understand Krsna. We are devotees of Krsna. We know the secret. To keep you perpetually in darkness, He manifested such lila that He is dead, finish. Just like the idol-breaker. They think, "Now their Krsna is finished. We have broken." During Hindu-Muslim riot they do that. They break their mosque, and they break their temple and idol also.
Ramesvara: Just like Prabhupada gave the argument... Because this one man was challenging that "This Krsna is simply sex symbol, dancing with so many women, having so many queens," so Prabhupada's challenge was: "But where is the pregnancy? Where is the abortion when He was dancing with the gopis? Therefore this is not ordinary. This is beyond the material. It's spiritual." That's a big challenge they make.
Gargamuni: How can any materialist manage more than a few wives without divorce?
Prabhupada: No, apart from that, apart from that, where is the...? If you believe Bhagavatam, that Krsna danced with so many thousands of gopis and He has so many wives, so why there was pregnancy? Why the gopis were not pregnant?
Hari-sauri: Yes. The gopis never had any children by Krsna. But His wives had ten each.
Prabhupada: Ten children each. You cannot say that "He was impotent; therefore He could not make the gopis pregnant." That you cannot say, because when He married, He begot ten children, each wife, sixteen thousand wives, and sixteen thousand, ten.
Hari-sauri: 160,000.
Prabhupada: And their children, their children. The Yadu-vamsa was a very big family, one crore. So you cannot say that "He was impotent." And God cannot be impotent. But why they were not pregnant? Hm?
Hari-sauri: 'Cause He never had...
Prabhupada: And why there was no abortion? Contraceptive pills? You dance. Immediately there is sex, and there are so many sinful activities after sex. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyah param avyayam. Mudhas, how they can understand Krsna? Tribhir gunamayair bhavair. Find out this verse. Naham prakasah sarvasya yoga-maya-samavrtah [Bg. 7.25]. One boy was asking, "What is God?" I chastised him like anything, that "You are born in India. You're asking what is God? How degraded you have become." First of all I answered like this. "India, where Lord Ramacandra, appeared, Lord Krsna appeared, Cai..., and you are Indian, you are asking what is God. How much degraded you Indians have become. Just imagine first of all."
Hari-sauri: You want that verse?
naham prakasah sarvasya
yoga-maya-samavrtah
mudho 'yam nabhijanati
loko mam ajam avyayam
[Bg. 7.25]
Prabhupada: Loko mam ajam avyayam.
Hari-sauri: "I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My eternal creative potency, yoga-maya, and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible."
Prabhupada: This is the answerjust to delude them, cheat them. They want to remain atheist"All right, remain atheist. Suffer," janmani janmani, "life after life." This is the real explanation. Is that correct answer? But still, there is some argument. Naham prakasah sarvasya [Bg. 7.25]. This is the idea. "Why shall I reveal Myself to this atheist class?" Mudha janmani janmani [Bg. 16.20]. "Let them remain asuras."
Hari-sauri: Should I read the purport?
Prabhupada: Hm? What is that?
Hari-sauri: "It may be argued that since Krsna was present on this earth and was visible to everyone, then why isn't He manifest to everyone now? But actually He was not manifest to everyone. When Krsna was present there were only a few people who could understand Him to be the Supreme Personality of Godhead." [break]
Prabhupada: If one understands, then he becomes immediately liberated. And the atheists, they cannot understand, so they remain always conditioned. If actually one understands Krsna's, he's liberated immediately. He's simply waiting for changing this body. That's all. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. One who has understood Krsna is liberated. Jivan muktah sa ucyate: "Even in this life he is mukta." Find out that, janma karma ca divyam me yo janati tattvatah. "You rascal, if you could understand Krsna, then immediately you would have been liberated. And if you were liberated, then you would not ask this question. You do not know Krsna, neither it is possible for you to understand Krsna. You remain in darkness."
Gargamuni: On that tape where you are arguing with that man, you asked him, "Did you read Bhagavad-gita?" He was criticizing, but then he asked him, "Did you read Bhagavad-gita?" He said, "No."
Prabhupada: Just see. Such... They have created this Vivekananda and Cinmayanandas, rascals, so many rascals. They have created such situation that Indian people are mostly in darkness, although God appears here in India. They have executed such thankless task, this Vivekananda, Cinmayananda and so many Mayavadis. "Ramakrishna is Bhagavan." And what is his certificate that he is Bhagavan? "He said." No. He said "I am the same Rama. I am the same Krsna." So he is taking shelter of Krsna to prove his Godhead. So why not go to original Godhead? Why shall I take the imitation? He is maintaining his position that "I am the same Krsna." "So then same Krsna is authority. So why shall I not go to same Krsna? Why shall I go to you? Your authority is also Krsna. So why shall I give up original Krsna and take to an imitation Krsna? You may be the same, but I am not a very intelligent man. Why shall I go to the imitation? I shall go to the original." Hm? Is it not? "I am not so expert to understand whether you are actual or not. You are saying. There is no proof in the sastra. So let me go to the original." Is that all right, argument? "Why shall I take you? You are supporting, trying to maintain yourself." Everyone says that "I am Krsna. I am God." So India, we have to fight little. There are so many atheists. But mass of people, they are all right.
Gargamuni: In the villages they all still worship Lord Caitanya. In the villages in Sundarbans they don't worship Ramakrishna. They worship Lord Caitanya.
Prabhupada: Accha.
Gargamuni: And also, when I was in Dacca, there was none of the sakti-puja. They had all temples of Lord Caitanya there when I was there.
Prabhupada: So you take this Dacca responsibility. Take that temple. It will be very nice, a great triumph for us.
Gargamuni: Yes. I will go. In a Muslim country to establish Vaisnavism.
Prabhupada: The temple is nice, and let us renovate it and establish our center, and gradually, if Americans preach there, the Muhammadans will come. If Hindu preach, they'll take otherwise. But when they see the Americans have come, they'll take it little seriously. And now we have got philosophy. At least the educated class will understand. You take that, and it will be a great triumph. My Guru Maharaja will be pleased. He established that temple, and Tirtha Maharaja was selling it. But he has no power to go there. He was exchanging. I told you that that I went to the donor and asked him that "Your temple is being exchanged with a Muhammadan." So they took it seriously, and they stopped it. This temple was donated by one big zamindar. They live in Sababazar.(?) They have got enough property in Dacca, big zamindar, Balihet. How he dared to exchange the temple established by Guru Maharaja for a house in Calcutta? Just what kind of person he was, just imagine.
Gargamuni: Ruthless.
Prabhupada: Ah, yes. All our activities are like that. What is the condition of Caitanya Matha now?
Gargamuni: Caitanya Matha? They're very quiet now. When I came out to MayapuraI think it was about ten days agoI saw a big bus, a tourist bus, and this..., the son came out with a bunch of people to Caitanya Matha. But it's relatively quiet now there. There's no actions.
Prabhupada: So he brought some men from Calcutta?
Gargamuni: Yes. He brought some people in a tourist bus.
Prabhupada: Indian?
Gargamuni: Yes. We have noticed recently many tourist buses there in Mayapura now. They are coming from other areas, middle class people. They rent this tourist bus, and they have been touring Mayapura. Sometimes they come and at the time of prasadam they ask, "Can we get our food here? We're about forty persons." So we take them over to the prasadam pavilion and they take. But this was never before. Never was there a tourist bus in Mayapura.
Prabhupada: No.
Gargamuni: Never.
Prabhupada: No. So you shall go? What is the time?
Hari-sauri: Ten past six.
Gargamuni: I think it's still a little dark.
Hari-sauri: No, it's light. [break]
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Gargamuni: It's light? Yes. [break]
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.
Hari-sauri: You want to give the class in the morning, Srila Prabhupada? 'Cause now there's no speaking in the evening.
Prabhupada: Hm?
Hari-sauri: Now you're not speaking in the evening, so the devotees were wondering if there was a class in the morning.
Prabhupada: They want? No.
Hari-sauri: Anybody want a class in the morning? (laughter) Yes, everybody wants.
Devotee: But not if it's uncomfortable.
Hari-sauri: But only as far as it's convenient to you.
Prabhupada: I shall speak in the evening.
Hari-sauri: All right. (end)

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