Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 7.9.8 – March 5, 1972, Calcutta

720305SB-CALCUTTA [56:36 Minutes]

Brahma became angry, and his eyes became red

Prabhupada: English. Yesterday I spoke in Bengali, is that alright?

Devotee: [Bengali]

Prabhupada: What shall I say?

Tamala Krsna: Speak English. English.

Prabhupada: You requested me to speak in English.

Tamala Krsna: What did you want? [break]

Prabhupada: Prahlada Maharaja says, brahmadayaḥ sura-gana munayo 'tha siddhaḥ [SB 7.9.8]. Brahmadayaḥ: amongst the demigods the head is Lord Brahma, brahma adayaḥ. Adi-kavi. Brahma is known as adi-kavi, the first living creature within this universe. Because when this universe was created, the first living being visible was Brahma. Then from Brahma, Lord Siva appeared. Brahma siva virinci. And Visnu is the origin. From Visnu's navel, lotus flower, Brahma appeared; and from Brahma, Lord Siva appeared. Lord Siva's another name is Rudra.

When Lord Brahma created the four Kumaras-Sanaka, Sanatana, Sananda, Sanat-kumara-so Brahma asked them, "My dear boys, you just marry and advance the progeny, create more sons and grandsons." They refused. They said, "My dear father, we are not going to marry. We shall remain brahmacari." So naturally, when father's order is disobeyed, he becomes angry. So Brahma became angry, and his eyes became red.

At that time, from the red eyes the Rudra, Lord Siva, appeared. So he was asked to increase the progeny, and he begot many thousands of demons. Then he was stopped, that "No more your progeny." Then Daksa and others, they were asked. Daksa Maharaja was very expert in giving birth. He was giving birth hundred children at a time. Therefore his name is Daksa, "very expert in giving birth to children." So in this way, creation was there, sons and grandsons. Manu is also one of the sons of Brahma.

So brahmadayaḥ, Brahma is adi, adi-kavi. He was instructed by Krsna, tene brahma adi-kavaye. Lord Krsna, He instructed Brahma to spread knowledge, Vedic knowledge, all over the universe. Tene. Tene means broadcasted, expanded. So tene brahma, brahma means sabda-brahma, Vedas. Hrda. One may question how Brahma was instructed. So that is also stated: hrda. Hrda means from within the heart. So therefore, Krsna is also caitya-guru, a guru, spiritual master, within the heart. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisthaḥ.

In the Bhagavad-gita, Krsna says that "I am situated in everyone's heart." Sarvasya ca aham hrdi sannivistaḥ. Sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto mattaḥ smrtir jnanam apohanam ca [Bg 15.15]: "From Me one can remember, one can forget." How is that? Krsna helps one to remember and one's helps..., one helps..., He helps one to forget. That is also replied in the Bhagavad-gita: ye yatha mam prapadyante tams tathaiva bhajamy aham [Bg 4.11].

If you want to forget Krsna, Krsna will give you facilities to forget Him forever. And if you want to remember Krsna, He will give you facilities to remember Him.

That means Krsna has given us little independence. Independence, because we are part and parcel of Krsna, and Krsna is fully independent, sva-rat. Janmady asya yataḥ anvayad itaratas ca arthesu abhijnaḥ svarat. He is fully independent. But we are, because we are part and parcel of Krsna, we have got also little independence. That quality is there. Krsna does not touch that independence quality. You can utilize it. You can use it properly; you can misuse it also. That is independence.

Krsna does not force that "You must do this." He can give you instruction. Just like Krsna gives instruction, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. Now it is my independence: I can give up everything, all other engagements, and I can simply surrender to Krsna; and I cannot also, I may not. If I don't like, Krsna does not interfere. Krsna says, "Whatever you like, you do." Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg 18.63]. That is, Krsna says to Arjuna, "Now whatever you like, you do." So this independence is always there.

Now when we misuse this independence... Our relationship with Krsna: to serve. Jivera svarūpa haya nitya krsna-dasa [Cc Madhya 20.108-109]. Therefore Krsna orders, "You surrender!" Just like we sometimes order our servants or subordinates, sons, disciples, "You do this! Don't talk!" So Krsna can order that, because He is the Supreme. Any superior personality can order like that. But unfortunately, we misuse. We don't carry out the order of the superior. That is misuse.

So any subordinate who does not carry the order of the master, he is dangerous. He is dangerous. That is spoken by Canakya Panḍita: bhrtyas cottara-dayakaḥ. Bhrtyas cottara-dayakaḥ. Bhrtyaḥ, subordinate, servant, if he is giving reply... Canakya Panḍita, you know Canakya-sloka; he is a great politician as well as moral instructor. So he has said, dusta bharya, his wife is dusta, polluted.

Wife becomes polluted if she is attracted by somebody else more than her husband. She is called polluted. Dusta bharya satham mitram: and friend playing duplicity. Dusta bharya satham mitram bhrtyas cottara-dayakaḥ: and servant replying to the order. Master says, "You do this first!" "Sir, we have got so many business, this and that, we shall do it." Oh, that is a dangerous thing.

So these four things: unfaithful wife, a duplic..., I mean, a cheating friend, and servant disobeying order, and a snake within the room, all these things are causes or the..., will cause death at any time. At any time, they can do anything. There are many instances. So these moral instruction are very nice, given by Canakya Panḍita. So all living entities who have disobeyed the order of Krsna, sarva-dharman parityajya.... [Bg 18.66] That is the principle. Every living entity must be obedient to Krsna. But by misuse of his little independence, if he does not obey the orders of Krsna, he immediately becomes arrested by maya.

Immediately. That is the law. daivi hi esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg 7.14]. He has to obey. But if he disobeys the order of Krsna, he must come down to the jurisdiction of maya to be forced to obey the orders of material nature.

So brahmadayaḥ. Everyone, everyone is servant of Krsna. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta, ekale isvara krsna. Īsvara means controller, order-giver. That is one. Ekale isvara krsna ara saba bhrtya . All others, they are...

[break] ...it is said, siva-virinci-nutam saranyam bhrtyarti-ham, vande maha-purusa te caranaravindam [SB 11.5.33]. Siva-virinci-nutam. Brahma. Virinci means Brahma, and sivaḥ means Lord Siva. They also offer obeisances unto the lotus feet of Krsna, Visnu. Om tad visnoḥ paramam padam. That is Rg Veda mantra, that Visnu is param padam, supreme. And Visnu is partial expansion of Lord Krsna-Maha-Visnu, not ordinary Visnu.

There are different types of Visnu also. Maha-Visnu... From Maha-Visnu there is Garbhodak... Maha-Visnu is called Karanodakasayi Visnu. And this Karanodakasayi Visnu enters in every universe as Garbhodakasayi Visnu. And this Garbhodakasayi Visnu again expands as Ksirodakasayi Visnu. These are visnu-tattvas. But this original Karanodakasayi Visnu is plenary expansion of Krsna. That is explained in the Brahma-samhita:

Visnu, Maha-Visnu, His description is given, yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anḍa-nathaḥ. Maha-Visnu is so big-He is lying in the Causal Ocean-that many innumerable quantity of universes are coming out by His exhaling and in..., exhaling. And from the pores of His body, innumerable universes are coming. And the Brahma lives only during the exhaling and inhaling time, that's all. Yasyaika-nisvasita-kalam athavalambya jivanti loma-vilaja jagad-anḍa-nathaḥ, visnur mahan sa iha yasya kala-viseso [Bs 5.48]. This Maha-Visnu is portion of the portion of Krsna's expansion.

Just like Krsna says... This... This Maha-Visnu and Garbhodakasayi Visnu is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. When Krsna... When Arjuna was asking Krsna about His vibhūti, about His power, so He summarized, athava bahunaitena kim jnatena tavarjuna: "How much I shall explain about My power and energy?" Vistabhya aham ekamsena sthito jagat [Bg 10.42]. Aham, "I enter in one of My plenary portion, that is Garbhodakasayi Visnu. I maintain the whole material cosmic manifestation." Ekamsena sthito jagat.

So there are innumerable, numberless universes. We cannot account for one universe even. We do not know how many planets and stars are there. When we are very much advanced in scientific knowledge, we are trying to go to the moon planet after spending millions and trillions of dollars. But still we could not fix up anything in the moon planet. That is the nearest planet. And what to speak of other planets. There are innumerable planets. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagadanḍa-koti-kotisv asesa-vasudhadi vibhūti-bhinnam [Bs 5.40]. So these are the explanation.

So the Brahma, you have one Brahma; there are innumerable Brahmas and innumerable Sivas and innumerable demigods, as many universes are there. Innumerable suns and moons and planet. Innumerable. And all this taken together, that becomes one fourth of the whole creation of God. Ekamsena sthito jagat [Bg 10.42]. The three-fourth portion of Krsna's creation, God's creation, is in the Vaikuntha jagat. Paras tasmat tu bhavo 'nyo 'vyakto 'vyaktat sanatanaḥ [Bg 8.20].

There is another nature, that is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, which is permanent. Within this material nature, all these universes, they stay during the lifetime of Brahma; and as soon as Brahma dies, everything is finished. Such Brahma, such powerful Brahma, they also offer obeisances to Krsna. Therefore, here it is said, brahmadayaḥ sura-gana. Brahmadayaḥ: not only Brahma, but others-Brahma, Siva, and Indra, Candra, Varuna, so many. There are many crores of demigods, as many planets there are.

So they offered Narasimha-deva their prayers to pacify Him, but they could not. Therefore, Prahlada Maharaja says that if brahmadayaḥ sura-gana siddhaḥ... Here Sridhara Swami says, munayo manana sila siddhyaḥ jnanino 'pi [?]. Manano sila. Manano sila means speculators, philosophers. Muni means one who can think very deeply, manano sila. Those who can expand by thinking, feeling and willing can write volumes of books. There are many you know in our country, they are called manano sila.

They take pleasure by mental speculation, manano sila, and they are men of knowledge also, jnanino 'pi. Munayo manana sila siddhyaḥ jnanino 'pi [Sridhara Swami]. And what kind of...? These great sages and saintly persons, what is their qualification? They are situated in knowledge, in sattva-guna, in light. They are not in darkness. Although they are not in darkness, but without being in the platform of sattva-guna, nobody can become very intelligent person, philosopher, or mental speculator also. Their position is very high in the material calculation. So such persons, api, [Sanskrit] [Sridhara Swami], they are also unable to satisfy.

Just like if a man becomes angry, so somebody tries to satisfy him. Just like somebody... Sometimes our small child becomes angry and cries very loudly, and the parents satisfy, "My dear boy, you are so nice. Why you are crying? You can take this," just to pacify. Similarly, when Narasimha-deva became very angry for killing... Because He was angry because Hiranyakasipu teased his devotee, Prahlada, so much. Therefore, He was very, very angry. Vaisnava-aparadha. If anyone offends a Vaisnava, a pure devotee of Krsna, he is the greatest offender. Krsna never excuses. That I explained yesterday. It is very... Vaisnava-aparadha is the greatest dangerous offense.

Therefore, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in His teaching to Sri Rūpa Goswami, He has especially, vaisnava-aparadha hati mata [Cc Madhya 19.156]. You are doing everything... He has compared vaisnava-aparadha as mad elephant. He has very nicely metaphorically explained this. Just like you have a nice garden, very good garden, you are watering, you are giving protection, giving manure, everything. But if in that garden a mad elephant enters, then it will destroy everything; all your labor will go to hell immediately. It will destroy everything.

Similarly, you may do anything very nicely; but if you commit offense at the feet of a pure Vaisnava, then all your assets will be immediately vanquished. Vaisnava-aparadha. Because Krsna is very angry. Tan aham dvisataḥ krūran ksipamy ajasram yonisu [Bg 16.19], in the Bhagavad-gita it is said. Krsna said, dvisataḥ krūran. Dvisataḥ, those who are envious upon Vaisnava and Visnu, the more dangerous position is to be envious of a Vaisnava. Visnu-aparadha can be excused-God is very kind-but He never excuses vaisnava-aparadha. That is His vow.

So because He was very angry, therefore all the Brahmas and other demigods offered Him prayer: "Sir, be pacified. The demon is now killed. Now You can become peaceful," but they could not satisfy. Hiranyakasipu after killing, He was so roaring in anger. So Prahlada Maharaja was pushed on, "My dear Prahlada," all the Brahmas and other demigods, that "you pacify your master. We have failed." So Prahlada Maharaja said that "When these big, big stalwart demigods have failed... They are situated in sattva-guna, in the modes of goodness, and they offered so nice prayers, they failed. What I can do? I am born of a father who is full of rajo-guna and tamo-guna."

He therefore said that kim tostum arhati sa me harir ugra-jateḥ [SB 7.9.8]. Ugra-jateḥ, "I am born of ugra, strong, strong qualities." Not strong quality. What do you call? Pungent. These rajo-guna and tamo-guna is called pungent. Just like you take chili. Chili is tamo-guna; that is the symptom of tamo-guna. As soon as you chew, it becomes hot, everything. You see? So ugra, ugra. And sattva-guna is sweetness, so sweetness. Therefore, ordinarily in India it is stated that a brahmana is known who can eat more sweets. [laughter] Yes.

It is said that there was a king, he was giving shelter to all the brahmanas. He had a guesthouse. Guesthouse, so any brahmana can stay there. So many non-brahmanas also were coming. So the order was that the brahmana can stay there, and there was a store, he can take his supplies from the store and eat and live there peacefully. And the storekeeper was submitting bill to the king that "Your guest has taken so many things. Kindly pay." So he was paying. So he was testing by the bill. If he would see the bill contains more spices and chilis, he will ask immediately, "Drag this man. He is not a brahmana." [laughter]

"Drag this man. He is not a brahmana." So be careful, don't take much. I know you don't take much. But if you take too much chilis and spices, then you will be considered amongst the non-brahmanas. You can take more sweets. [laughter] [laughs] So if the bill was submitted containing more sugar, then he would accept, "Yes, that man is brahmana." [laughter] [laughs] So these three gunas means sweet, salt and chili. Sattva-guna is sweet, and rajo-guna is salt, and tamo-guna is chili.

So here it is said that "All the siddhas, all these demigods, they are on the sattvaikatana-gatayo, they are all situated in the modes of goodness, and they have offered their prayers but could not pacify the Lord, then what I can do? I am born of a person ugra-jateḥ, born of chili father." [laughter] "What I can do, I mean to say, because I am born of a chili father." [laughter] Then he considers that gunair api, jam naradhitum na pipruḥ tat purna saktai tyaktva sa harir me katham tostum praptam arhati [SB 7.9.8]. Sa hareḥ, "That Supreme Personality of Godhead, how He can be pacified by me?" Tostum arhati.

In other words, that God consciousness, Krsna consciousness, cannot be achieved by persons who are polluted by the chili quality and salt quality, or tamo-guna and rajo-guna, rajas tamaḥ. Rajas tamo bhavaḥ [SB 1.2.19]. If we are infected with... There are three qualities within this material world: sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. So generally people are infected with tamo-guna and rajo-guna. There are very few persons who are under the sattva-guna. But Krsna says that one can overcome the influence of rajo-guna and tamo-guna by simply hearing about Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita or from the Srimad-Bhagavatam. That is the recommendation.

The recommendation is, srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. Srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ. Krsna, as I already told you, Krsna is situated in everyone's heart. So when people are anxious to hear about Krsna, this is the only qualification. Just like you are so kind, you are anxious to hear about Krsna because here there is no other business than Krsna. All of you who have come here, it is due to your anxiousness to hear about Krsna. Because our Society's name is "Krsna Consciousness." When I registered this society, some friend suggested that "Why don't you make it 'God Consciousness'?"

I said "No. God means Krsna." Īsvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnah [Bs 5.1]. God means..., the Supreme God means Krsna. Mattaḥ parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7]. So Krsna is the Supreme God. If we say 'God,' it remains a vague thing. It is not clearly understood. Everyone can be God. 'God,' this word can be applied to everyone. God means controller. So everyone can be controller. Therefore, we have distinctly mentioned Krsna, Krsna consciousness.

So in our Society, anyone who joins, that means he is interested in Krsna, little. May not be very much. At least, they come here out of inquisitiveness to hear what they speak about Krsna, what do they do about Krsna. But our..., everything is open. There is no secrecy. We worship Krsna, we think of Krsna, we work for Krsna, we glorify Krsna, we chant for Krsna, we dedicate our life for Krsna. That's all. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65]. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66].

Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taran... This is our philosophy. We think of Krsna, as Krsna says; we are devotees of Krsna, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktaḥ; we worship Krsna, mad-yaji; we offer our obeisance to Krsna, mam namaskuru. This is our... Sarva-dharman parityajya, we have no other religion. We don't approve any other religion except Krsna consciousness. This is our philosophy.

So anyone who comes to this Krsna consciousness movement or contributes something for pushing on this movement, he becomes immediately benefited. Immediately. Because Krsna, about Krsna it is said, srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. Krsna is there within your heart. As soon as He sees that you are trying to do something for Krsna, immediately he becomes favorably disposed upon you. Even if you don't get anything, you become pious, punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ. Even if you don't...

Just like I am speaking in English. There are many audience here, they may not understand English. But even if you do not understand, because you are hearing, you are getting the result of pious activities. Punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ. It does not mean that you have to understand each and every word. Because you are allowing your ear to receive the sound vibration, you are being benefited. Punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ. Srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ.

So if you... Please, simply hear what is going on here. That is also beneficial, punya. Punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ. Simply hearing, chanting, you join with us chanting Hare Krsna, you hear Hare Krsna, then you become pious. Punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ. Krsna is so nice. Bhavadbhir loka-mahgalam [SB 1.2.5]. Suta Gosvami said that the krsna-samprasna, because you have inquired about Krsna, so it is loka-mahgalam, it is very much beneficial to the whole world. This sahkirtana movement is like that.

Anywhere we are going, we are making the whole atmosphere purified. It is not here in India; we have got branches all over the world. In Africa, even those black men, they are also. Because in the spiritual world there is no such consideration the black, white, because it is the spiritual platform. The spirit soul is neither black, neither white, neither yellow. This is dress. Just like within the dress we are everyone. The dress may be black, white, yellow; that does not matter.

So our this movement invites everyone, because it is Krsna consciousness. Srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ [SB 1.2.17]. If you please come and hear about Krsna, then Krsna becomes favorably disposed, that "Now this soul, this individual soul, is now inclined to hear about Me." So He gives facilities. What is that facility? The facility is that within our heart there are so many dirty things. Therefore, we cannot understand Krsna. So Krsna helps in washing the dirty matter within our heart. Srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ, hrdy antaḥ stho abhadrani [SB 1.2.17].

Abhadrani.

Abhadrani means especially this rajo-guna and tamo-guna. This is abhadrani. And sattva-guna is bhadrani. Therefore, those who are on the platform of sattva-guna, goodness, they are gentlemen. Before coming to the platform of sattva-guna, nobody can be gentleman. Gentleman means cool-headed, who can understand things as they are. He is called gentleman.

So abhadrani, in this human society, because these abhadrani, rajo-guna and tamo-guna, has increased, practically we can say there is no gentlemen. There is no gentlemen. Because they cannot understand what is life, what is the value of life. Just like the animal cannot understand what is the value of life. Animals, they are generally in tamo-guna, and some animals in rajo-guna. Just like lion. Lion is rajo-guna, and the hog and dog and others, they are in the tamo-guna. So animals are in the rajo-guna, tamo-guna.

So the formula is... Caitanya Mahaprabhu gives this formula, that if you hear Hare Krsna mantra, then ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12], then Krsna will help you in washing the abominable things, rajo-guna and tamo-guna. The rajo-guna and tamo-guna, if it is washed, then you become situated in sattva-guna. You are promoted. But if you are promoted directly to Krsna consciousness, then you transcend all the three qualities, tamo-guna, rajo-guna and sattva-guna. That is also stated by Krsna: sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhūyaya kalpate [Bg 14.26]. Who? Mam ca 'vyabhicarina bhakti-yogena yaḥ sevate. Avyabhicarena, not mixed quality; pure.

These boys, European and American boys, people admire because they have been given immediately lift to the position of transcendental life. Sa gunan samatityaitan. They have been helped to jump over the transcendental platform. How? Vidhi-bhakti, avyabhicarini-bhakti. Avyabhicarini-bhakti. Vyabhicarini means some day I do something, some day I do not do that. That is called vyabhicarini: not fixed up. But if you follow regularly the rules and regulation, vidhi-bhakti, to rise early in the morning, to offer mahgala-arati, then read granthas, chant Hare Krsna, then dress the Deity, then again offer something, in this way that there is regular, routine work, that is called vidhi-bhakti. Viddhi, viddhi means he must; he cannot neglect it.

Just like your legislative assembly is called Vidhan Sabha. Vidhan Sabha means whatever is enacted there, you must follow. That is the state order. Similarly, there are rules and regulation which one must follow. Then vidhi-bhakti. As soon as he accepts these rules and regulation and offers Krsna service under that rules and regulation, immediately he is in the transcendental platform. Immediately.

Sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg 14.26]. Etan means all these three qualities, tama-guna, rajo-guna and sattva-guna. Sattva-guna is good so far material consideration is there, but that is not perfect. Because from sattva-guna, if you are not very strict... Just like we have seen. Sattva-guna means the quality of brahmana. Now the brahminical qualification is now fallen. They are not so very strict following the brahminical principles. So there is chance of falling down. But if you keep yourself on the transcendental platform, aprakrti, that is, beyond the material world, then there is no falldown. Brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. Falldown there is, if you are neglectful, but generally there is no chance of falldown. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhūyaya kalpate.

So you have to situate yourself in the Brahman platform. Brahman platform means pure, uncontaminated by the material qualities. That is called Brahman platform. Brahma-bhutaḥ prasannatma [Bg 18.54]. There are many such statements. So this is Brahman platform. The brahma-jnani, impersonalist, they think simply by coming to the Brahman platform, business is finished now. Aham brahmasmi. No. Aham brahmasmi is there, but what is the duty of the Brahman? That they do not know. Just like again I say the same example. Just like you are going to the moon planet. So the so-called aeronautics, they are going: "Now we have come to moon planet." That's nice, but stay there. Unless you stay there, it is useless. It is useless. Actually, they could not stay there. Why they come back? Why they come back? That is either false or they have no qualification to stay there.

So who cannot stay in the Brahman platform? The nondevotee. That is stated. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tataḥ patanty adhaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Just like as you go to the moon planet but if you cannot stay there, you must have to come down again to this planet, similarly, one may rise up to the Brahman platform, param-pada, which is called param-pada, but if you cannot stay there, then again you fall down. Just like many so-called sannyasis, they rise to the brahma-pada, aham brahmasmi, but because they cannot stay there, they come down again to this material world and they are busy for opening hospitals, schools and philanthropism. And why? You have left already all this nonsense; you say that this world is mithya, brahma satyam jagan mithya. So if you have ascended to the brahma-pada, why you come down again to the mithya-pada? That means you have no taste.

Actually you have not arrived. The same thing: You are going, the so-called advertisement, "I am going to the moon planet," but because you cannot stay there, you come down. So we have to stay there, brahma-pada. That brahma-pada staying means devotional service. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate . So brahma-pada, you can rise up. But if you do not engage yourself in the service of Bhagavan, then again you come down. Aruhya krcchrena param padam tataḥ patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-ahghrayaḥ [SB 10.2.32]. Because they could not engage their service to the lotus feet of Krsna, therefore, these so-called sannyasis again come down to this material platform and engage their service to the mithya. Because they rejected this world, mithya. Why they come down again to this mithya platform-politics, sociology, humanity-if this is mithya?

But our philosophy is not that. We don't say that this world is mithya. Why shall I say? It is creation of Krsna. If Krsna is truth, His creation is also truth. We employ everything to the service of Krsna. Therefore, anyone who is engaged in the service of the Lord is always situated in the transcendental platform. They will never come down. Because it is so sweet, it is so nice, they will never agree. Any student of this institution, if you ask him, if you try to cheat him that "You give up this idol worship. Come down. Go and worship the poor, the leper, and this and that," so many things, they will not agree. They will not agree. They will not come down. They will engage themselves always in the service of the Lord. Although the atheist class of men may think that they are engaged in idol worship, it is not idol. Those who are atheist, they may see idol, stone. But those who are devotees, they see saksad brajendranandana hari.

Just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu, when He entered the Jagannatha temple, as soon as He saw Jagannatha, immediately fainted, "O My Lord, here You are." So it is a question of vision. Somebody is going to Jagannatha temple, he is seeing a wooden carved statue. That's all. And he is surprised, "Why for this wooden carved statue so many people are coming?" Because they are not devotee, they cannot understand. But one devotee..., thousands and millions of devotees are going every year. Are they going to worship an idol? So this is the difference between the devotee and the nondevotee. A devotee knows that everything belongs to Krsna and everything is the manifestation of Krsna's energy. Therefore, they want to employ everything to the service of the Lord, and they remain always blissful, transcendental.

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. [break]

Devotees: Haribol. [break]

Irish Guest (1): Some yogis harness energies and claim to use these energies to benefit humanity. Is there any value in their work? Is there any real consequence?

Prabhupada: Yes, that I have already explained, that they employ their energies, but if they do not reach the ultimate goal, Krsna, they fall down. There is chance of falling down. Because Krsna is the ultimate goal. So they are employing their energies, that's all right, but they have to employ their energies more and more to approach Krsna. If you do not approach Krsna, then they fall down.

Aruhya krcchrena. If they simply... Just like the same example, just like sunshine. Sunshine is also sun. But if you simply try to remain in the sunshine and don't go to the sun planet or any other planet, then again you come back. So the energy employed for realizing the Absolute Truth is good. But if he does not approach or if he is unable to approach the Supreme, then he will fall down.

Guest (2): Is any knowledge other than ultimate knowledge of the Supreme of any value at all?

Prabhupada: Any knowledge, there are so many subject matter of knowledge in the material world.

Guest (2): Is this material knowledge of any value?

Prabhupada: No. Material is valuable so far your material existence is concerned. That is also not valuable. Because if you try to protect this body by all kinds of knowledge, but it will not stay. And after giving up your this body, you have to accept another body. Then what is the value of material knowledge? This time you may have this human form of body; next time you may not have. Then what is the value of material knowledge?

Because you cannot change the order of transmigration of the soul from one body to another. That you have to accept according to your karma. So therefore material knowledge will not help me. Therefore they struggle so. You are under the grip of natural laws, daivi hy esa guna-mayi [Bg 7.14]. Natural..., nature's law are very stringent. You cannot interfere with the... Prakrteḥ kriyamanani gunaiḥ karmani sarvasaḥ [Bg 3.27]. The prakrti, the nature, material nature is so strong that you cannot interfere with her business. That is not possible.

So your material knowledge will not help you, unless you have got Krsna consciousness knowledge. You can..., anyone can understand. Suppose if I want to protect this body with all hygienic principles, soaps and pumice and injection and medicine and so many things, does it mean that you shall live? Can you overcome the laws of nature? No, that is not possible. Can you overcome the laws of nature that you will not fall sick? No, that you cannot. Can you make any material laws or scientific knowledge that you will not become old? No. You cannot stop death, you cannot stop birth, you cannot stop old age, you cannot stop disease. So what is the value of your material knowledge? And these are the troubles.

Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duḥkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg 13.9]. Any intelligent man will see that "What is the value of my material knowledge? I have to die. I have to be victim of disease and old age. Then what is value?" The best thing is that so long this material body is there, you have got the opportunity to develop your Krsna consciousness, do that. That will save you from all dangers. Otherwise, nothing will save you. Simply srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8], simply waste of time.

Chant Hare Krsna.

Devotees: Haribol. Hare Krsna. [end]