Room Conversation with Gurukula Teachers [No Audio] – July 30, 1975, Dallas
|
750730R1.DAL
Room Conversation
with Gurukula Teachers - July 30, 1975, Dallas 750730R1-Dallas [No Audio]
Note: Srila Prabhupada met with the gurukula teachers in the last week of July of 1975 in Dallas, Texas. We had a lengthy meeting in which Prabhupada covered a range of topics ranging from the ultimate goal of teaching, to the instructions of Prahlada Maharaja in the 7th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam about gurukula, to Canakya Panḍita, to false Vedantists. I don't know what happened to the original tape, but this transcript was reviewed by Dayananda Prabhu just after it was recorded for the accuracy of the Sanskrit and general content, listening very carefully to the tape. We both carefully proofread the English, and I can vouch for its accuracy and authenticity. -Rūpa Vilasa
Prabhupada: So, what are you teaching?
Dayananda: Some of the teachers are academic teachers; they teach in the classroom, and some are caring for the children in the asrama, caring for their needs, helping them get ready for mahgala-arati and taking care…
Prabhupada: So, what is the ultimate goal of teaching?
Dayananda: Service to Krsna.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Dayananda: Nine-fold process, service to Krsna.
Manḍelesvara: Four things: man-mana…always think of Krsna.
Prabhupada: Why should one want to become Krsna conscious? One can say that I can become materially conscious. Why should I become Krsna conscious?
Jagadisa: In the Vedanta-sūtra, the statement is given athato brahma-jijnasa, that the human life is meant for Krsna consciousness.
Prabhupada: That is all right, but why is it necessary to become Krsna conscious?
Jagadisa: I am not this body; I am spirit soul. The soul is eternal.
Prabhupada: That's all right, the soul is eternal-that is one of the important things. Krsna consciousness is required because the soul is eternal, but your body is not eternal. So, in order to get rid of this repetition of birth and death, therefore Krsna consciousness. To conquer over the repetition of birth and death, and "teacher" means one who can educate the student to this understanding or this platform that there is no more birth and death.
Then it is perfect teaching. The whole thing is how to stop. Nobody wants to die, but he has no education how to become free from the punishment of death. That is what nobody has education of. And nobody wants to die, that's a fact. So Krsna consciousness means to stop this nuisance business, repetition of birth and death.
Therefore, it is compulsory, if one is actually eager. It is a fact that nobody wants to die, but he does not know. Even big, big scientists-they discover so many wonderful things, but they could not discover anything that he [they] will also not die. All big, big scientists-they die.
That means we shall also die, but after death there is no more acceptance of this material body; that means no more death. This is the last death, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti so 'rjuna.
We are teaching that after annihilation of this body, there is no more acceptance of this material body. And, because there is no more acceptance of the material body, there is no more death. This is our… janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [birth, death, old age, and disease] [Bg 13.9]. That should be impressed upon the students, and the teachers must know it. Then it will be successful. This is knowledge: that why should one be subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease? We do not want all these things. That is real science; that is real knowledge.
So our students should be elevated to this knowledge. And we are describing in our books how to understand this science. That is…
[pause] One gentleman, he is a lord in England, Lord Pennard Broker came to see me. So I asked, "What is your philosophy of life?" He said, "Well, I'm trying to live fully, that's all." But after death, he has no idea. That is the defect; nobody knows what is going to happen after death.
These people are accusing us that: "What will happen after death, thinking like that, they are already dead, except that they are not enjoying this material world." They criticize us, "You are thinking only of what will happen after death, and you are not taking advantage while you are living." Do they not say like that? We are also living, but we are living not like irresponsible men. Our living may seem to be different from others who are living irresponsibly.
Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, we were wondering whether there was any information in Srimad-Bhagavatam about gurukula.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Jagadisa: Dayananda Prabhu was mentioning that some things are in the seventh chapter, seventh canto…
Prabhupada: Seventh canto. You have got? Seventh canto? Yes. So, you want it to be published first? No. [laughter] What do you want? I shall explain, no?
Dayananda: That's all right. We are eager to hear.
Prabhupada: Here is the first [verse]:
narada uvaca
brahmacari guru-kule vasan danto guror hitam acaran dasavan nico gurau suḍrdha-sauhrdaḥ [SB 7.12.1] Brahmacari should be in gurukula. Dantaḥ, controlling the senses. Vasan dantaḥ and guror-hitam for the benefit of the guru, not for their personal benefit. Acaran and dasa-vat, acting just like a servant, the master orders and the servant carries out the order.
Dasa-vat nicaḥ, although he may come from a very aristocratic family, brahmana family, still he should accept the position of a menial servant. Nicaḥ brahmacari…nicaḥ means humble. Not that, "Oh, the spiritual master is ordering me to do this thing which is not suitable for my position." No, we should be humble, that my spiritual master or my teacher has asked me to do this, this consciousness should be there, not challenging.
So, brahmacari guru-kule vasan…vasan means residing; dantaḥ, very self-controlled. Guror-hitam, for the benefit of the guru, not for his personal benefit, guror-hitam, acaran, practicing or behaving. Acaran dasa-vat, just like servant, menial servant. Nicaḥ…humble. Gurau sudrḍha, gurau sudrḍha-sauhrdaḥ. [SB 7.12.1]
These things are accepted out of love for the spiritual master. Just like you are working; I am not paying you, but why are you working? Out of your love for me. This is the basic principle. Gurau sudrḍha-sauhrdaḥ. Sudrḍha…firm. One should be convinced that my spiritual master is my best friend, and therefore, I must render service to him on this basis. The service you are rendering, it is not possible to be done even if I pay somebody $1,000 per month. It is not possible, because it is out of love. There is no question of payment. So, this is the basic principle.
yasya deve para bhaktir
yatha deve tatha gurau [Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.23] Bhakti… when one is fixed up in devotion to Krsna and His representative guru, then everything becomes revealed automatically. Tasyaite kathita hy arthaḥ prakasante mahatmanaḥ. These are all revealed experience. These are the basic principles, that brahmacaris, especially, are under the protection of the guru. He should be taught to become…there is no question in the beginning how much he has learned ABC, no.
The first thing is there, that one should live in the gurukula, practice sense control. The basic principle should be that we are living here for the benefit of the guru, not for my benefit. Therefore, whatever he orders, he desires, we execute.
Jagadisa: Prabhupada, this would indicate that the atmosphere here must be very strict.
Prabhupada: Not strict, but it should be there...it is on the basis of love. Stricture is not very good. They should do it automatically, out of love. That is wanting. Superficially, there may be some stricture, but that is not a very good idea. By simply stricture, they will take it sadly. That is not good…Stricture, that materially there are so many laws and regulative principles to do; if you do not, you'll be punished. That may be, but they should develop the idea of love. That is…
Jagadisa: Part of loving the children is forcing them to act according to our Krsna conscious discipline.
Prabhupada: Forcing should not be ordinary. Sometimes superficially you have to do that, but the basic principle should be love. That force is not material force. In the material world also, sometimes the father forces his son to do something. That does not mean the father is the enemy of the son. For the benefit of the son, sometimes he forces, sometimes he chastises. That is superficial. So that chastisement, or force, is also out of love.
Jagadisa: So we cannot be permissive with the children; otherwise, they will take advantage.
Prabhupada: No, no, that is all right. I have already explained. Children, they are innocent. As you teach them, they learn. Teaching must be there, discipline must be there, sometimes force must be applied. But everything should be on the basis of love. That requires experience.
Dayananda: It seems that it would take some time to develop that, rather than immediately…
Prabhupada: Yes. The rules and regulations will teach him automatically. Just like this rising. Here it is said:
sayam pratar upasita
gurv-agny-arka-surottaman ubhe sandhye ca yata-vag japan brahma samahitaḥ [SB 7.12.2] This should be taken up: japa, Hare Krsna mantra and early rising, then offering oblations, Deity worship. These things should be practiced, then automatically they will develop.
Jagadisa: Sometimes, unless we encourage them very strongly, they don't want to chant japa.
Prabhupada: You should practice, "Now, sit down! Chant Hare Krsna! Hare Krsna!" You should chant; they will chant. You should behave yourself very strictly on discipline, and they will follow.
Dwarkanatha: It seems that we must become humble. We must become servants to them in the sense that we do everything that we can to facilitate their service. Then when they see we are surrendering to our service, they will surrender to us.
Prabhupada: Very good idea. Example is better than precept. You should all be personal examples, and they will do that. You do not practice, if you simply force them, that will not be good. Every one of you, if you rise early in the morning, they will also. If you think, "It is meant for the students, we are now liberated persons, we can sleep up to 7:30."
Jagadisa: Prabhupada, the teachers are all setting a good example in that way.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Jagadisa: The teachers are setting a good example in that way.
Prabhupada: Then it will be followed. You rest assured.
Jagadisa: But there is a question that sometimes a teacher feels reluctant to encourage the children strongly to participate in the devotional activities.
Prabhupada: Why?
Jagadisa: Because he doesn't want to force them to do devotional service.
Prabhupada: No, that should be done. Teachers must do and students must also do it.
Jagadisa: The love on the part of the teacher…
Prabhupada: No. There it is recommended…Canakya Panḍita said: lalane bahavo dosaḥ-who loves unnecessarily, to make them stupid, that is not good. Lalane bahavo dosaḥ. If you become lenient, then there will be many faults. Taḍane bahavo gunaḥ…and if you strictly induce them, forcibly, to be disciplined, that is very nice. Bahavo gunaḥ…that is good qualities. Lalane bahavo dosaḥ/taḍane bahavo gunaḥ/tasmat putram ca sisyam ca taḍayen na tu lalayet.
Therefore, either to sons or the disciples, students, they should be always strictly forced. Don't be lenient. Why should we be lenient? That is not good. They are after all "child," so if you become lenient they will think this is the practice. No. You must get up. That is discipline.
Jagadisa: We see that when they are given good discipline in that way, they respond nicely. They chant.
Prabhupada: Yes, Why should you be lenient? That is your fault. But, out of "love" we shall see our sons or disciples go to hell. That is not good, that is foolishness. But when they are grown up, 16 years old, they should be treated as friend. Prapte tu soḍase varse putram mitravad acaret. [Canakya Panḍita]
Here are the instructions: from five to 15 years, all the sons and students should be kept under strict disciplinary order. If they do not follow, they should be chastised. Then as soon as one attains the 16th year, then treat him as friend. At that time, do not force. Then he'll deviate, go out. That is happening in your western countries. Prapte tu soḍase varse putram mitravad acaret. All the instructions.
Dayananda: We also have girls here, Prabhupada.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Dayananda: We also have girls here, Prabhupada, so this is sisyas ca putras ca, but what about girls?
Prabhupada: Girl is also "putra." Putra means putra/putri, don't think that. Putra means daughter and putra means son.
Dayananda: Strictly also with the girls?
Prabhupada: Yes.
Dayananda: Up to 16?
Prabhupada: Yes. Up to 15. So according to Vedic civilization up to 15th year the girl is kept under the vigilance of the father, and when she attains youthful body, then she must be entrusted to another young boy to take charge. This is Vedic. Then the father becomes relieved of the responsibility. As soon as the grownup daughter is delivered to a young man, then they live peacefully.
Jagadisa: Prabhupada, in our movement the fathers are sending their daughters to gurukula. Should the daughters remain in gurukula until they are married?
Prabhupada: At gurukula the girls should be taught, especially, how to become chaste and, of course, an expert in cooking. Then, she will never be neglected by her husband. Her life becomes very happy.
Dayananda: Some of our girls are also intelligent in Sanskrit.
Prabhupada: That is all right. They can read sastra, but these are the primary conditions. Then, she will be educated. She can teach, she can preach.
Jagadisa: Prabhupada, I heard that you suggested that the girls can be initiated when they are ten, so they can cook in the Deities' kitchen. I think that is a good suggestion. They won't chant 16 rounds, but if it is enforced…
Prabhupada: That is compulsory what I have given. Attending the functions of the temple and chanting on their beads-automatically they'll advance. Especially the obligation of chanting, and if you are chanting, that is the essence. So in every kirtana function, every arati, have a nice kirtana. That speaks… [pause]
Gurukula means we should always know that. All the students, they should be educated in such a way that they become good citizens, good devotees, and they know the values of life. Other schools-they do not know. They become cats and dogs. They do not know what is the value of life.
Therefore, the whole world is in a dirty condition. Students are not educated. They are educated to become polished dogs, that's all. They remain a dog, polished dog. Sruti means to educate the students to become human beings. That is the difference.
[break] I am running continually. What is the difference? There is no difference, so it is equally gross. But if you teach that "No, running is not our business. Our business is self-realization." Yes. And the difficulty is there was no scientific teaching of spiritual education before this movement, at least in this age. Everyone bogus if you are after scientific spiritual understanding.
But because everyone is after material name, fame, and gain, the so-called svamis or priests and yogis, they have also taken this as a means of earning this material fame, name and material gain. They have no knowledge. That is a challenge. This Krsna consciousness movement is a challenge to all these rascals.
That is the special significance of Krsna consciousness. It is a challenge to all classes of rascals. So how much we should be strong and just remain. It is a challenge to all rascals-so-called priests, so-called svamis, so-called yogis, so-called politicians. They do not know. They have no knowledge.
Just like in our country, Vivekananda-he also came to your country. He had no knowledge; he came as an Indian sadhu. [Sarcastically] Vedanta! And he advertises in India that: "Now all the Americans have become Vedantists, Hindus, something, etc. [Scornfully]
He did not know what Vedanta is, and he came to preach Vedanta. There is no name of Krsna, no smell of Krsna in their society, and they are "Vedantists." Therefore, my, some of my Godbrothers, they gave me this title, "Bhaktivedanta." Vedanta means bhakti. That was the desire of my guru maharaja, that this boy will preach Vedanta, but bhakti. Vedanta means bhakti.
See the argument from Bhagavad-gita. Krsna says, "By Vedic knowledge one is to understand Me." Try to understand the logic. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo. Vedais ca sarvair [Bg 15.15]. There are different Vedas-Sama Veda, Rg, Atharva, and then there are corollaries-Upanisads, Vedanta-sūtra, then Puranas, Mahabharata, Ramayana-these are all Vedas, Vedic knowledge, explained in different ways for different classes of men. So, therefore, Krsna says vedais ca sarvair, all Vedic knowledge. Four Vedas, Upanisads, Vedanta-sūtra and Ramayana, Mahabharata, Puranas, all these Vedas. What is the purpose of studying all this Vedic literature? To understand Me.
Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo. So this Vedic knowledge is there. People are expert [some are expert, not all]. So why do they not understand Krsna? This is the next question. "Vedantists" means [they are advertising they are Vedantists, but they do not know what is Krsna. They're manufacturing an imitation Krsna by their mental concoction. If they knew Krsna, then why would they manufacture Ramakrishna? Hmm? They did not know Krsna. It is a fact.
Otherwise, why should they present a false Krsna, Ramakrishna. Ramakrishna, at the time of death, he informed his disciple, Vivekananda, "I am the same Rama and Krsna. He [Vivekananda] accepted it, and he preached on that in the Ramakrishna temple. If I am the same, then why not go to the original Krsna? He is becoming an important man, being the same Rama and Krsna, why not the original Rama and Krsna? That intelligence he has got. They accept it.
So why he could not understand? Supposing he has studied Vedanta. But why could he not understand Krsna, and why is he presenting a false Krsna? What is the reason? Tell me in your answer. Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg 15.15]. Through Vedanta, Vedas, it is acknowledged that one can understand Krsna. But they did not understand Krsna. Why? Supposing they have studied all the Vedic literatures, but why did they not understand Krsna? What is the answer?
Asoka: They did not understand the Vedanta.
Prabhupada: No, suppose they understood, or studied. Yes, they did not understand. Why then, that is the question. Why did they not understand?
Prabhupada: Why Krsna refuses to be manifested to them? Why? I am asking why.
Jagadisa: Because they are envious of Krsna.
Dayananda: Because of Bhaktivedanta!
Prabhupada: Hm?
Dayananda: Because of Bhaktivedanta!
Prabhupada: Yes, here is the answer! Their Vedanta is zero; there is no bhakti. Therefore, it requires the help of Bhaktivedanta. Not this rascal Vedanta. Krsna says, bhaktya mam avijanati. [Bg 18.55] You may read all the Vedic literatures, but if you have no bhakti, then you cannot understand. That is nahamprakasaḥ sarvasya. Then He will remain concealed. Never understand Him.
These people-they have no bhakti. They transfer bhakti to goddess Kali, who is worshipped by the persons in the lower grade of life. Tamo-guna. Kamais tais tair hrta-jnanaḥ prapadyante 'nya devataḥ [Bg 7.20]. Goddess Kali or Durga, or any demigod-they are worshipped by persons-hrta-jnanaḥ. They have no knowledge. Especially hrta jnanaḥ-whose knowledge is taken away, gone to hell.
Asoka: Prabhupada, they worship for success in bhakti.
Prabhupada: That's all right, you can get success, but what will you do with this success?
Asoka: Use it for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Krsna does not say that you worship goddess for successful worship. Krsna never said that. Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. Where does He say to worship goddess? Does He say? Why do you worship goddess? That is for the materialistic person. There is some material gain. They can worship goddess. But for getting the mercy of Krsna, there is no mention that you worship goddess. Where is this stated? If you worship goddess, then you can worship Me. Is this stated? Why do you do that?
Universal. Mam ekam. Beginning. That's all. Ekam-one, means universal. But why do you accept? That is ignorance. We have no objection if you pray to goddess for Krsna bhakti. But there is no need! If Krsna wants to favor you, He does not depend on goddess' favor.
Suppose if somebody wants to see me, if I say, "Yes, I want to see him," it does not depend on another's favor to see me. Similarly, Krsna said that: "Just surrender to Me; everything will be all right. This is called eka-nistha: [fixation on One Supreme.] You do not require."
Krsna says that, "You go to My representative."
He never says that you go to goddess Kali, Durga, He doesn't. He condemns-kamais tais tair hrta jnanaḥ-go to My representative. The Vedas also say-tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet. [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12] It never says-tad-vijnanartham-one should approach something else, some demigods.
No. Gurum evabhigacchet. But they are also devotees of the Lord, so we have no disrespect for any demigod. But it doesn't require. People did not understand Vedanta simply by studying Vedanta. But Vedanta should be studied from the bhakta. Therefore, Bhaktivedanta. We don't read Vedanta without bhakti. That is our specialty. Vedanta is required.
Without Vedanta knowledge, knowledge is not perfect. But through bhakti. So, they did not accept bhakti. Therefore, they could not understand Vedanta. Misrepresented. This so-called Vedantists' society, what is their value? They could not understand what is the objective of Vedanta. They think that Krsna and a false Ramakrishna are the same. Vivekananda teaches, "Why are you searching after God. There are so many gods loitering in the street. Daridra-narayana.
Why are you going to Narayana?
Brahmananda: He also said, "Instead of cultivating tulasi, cultivate brinjal [eggplant].
Prabhupada: Yes. Puffed-up materialist. [Sarcastically] And he wanted to please the Lord. Therefore, he has not been successful.
[To Brahmananda:] You were going to his classes?
Brahmananda: You saved us.
Prabhupada: Hmm?
Brahmananda: You saved us.
[long pause, some indistinct conversation]
Jagadisa: There was one more question about when the girls get older. You've already mentioned that they should stay at gurukula. Sometimes the parents may want to take the daughter home when they are ten or eleven years old. They may cause a distraction from the temple service. So, whether that is all right also?
Prabhupada: You can request them, but if they do not hear you, what can I do?
Jagadisa: But the boys? If the parents want their young sons to live at home and attend gurukula during the day and then go home at night, is that a good policy?
Prabhupada: Gurukula means they must be residing.
Jagadisa: Up til 15 years?
Prabhupada: At least. Boys can live here up to 25th year, until they are married.
Jagadisa: 25th year…
Prabhupada: [simultaneously] If they want to marry! [laughter]
Jagadisa: That answers all our questions, Prabhupada. Thank you very much.
Everyone: Jaya Prabhupada.
Link to this page: https://prabhupadabooks.com/dict/srimad-bhagavatam-dictation/room-conversation-with/room-conversation-with-gurukula-teachers-no-audio-july-30-19
|