Evening Darśana – May 13, 1977, Rishikesh

Prabhupada: [break] You told me, from the siddhi...

Tamala Krsna: Someone came this morning. He was asking that... He was hoping that because he had heard that you had some mystical powers, so he was hoping that you could help his situation by demonstrating some of these mystical powers.

Prabhupada: Some magic. Our magic is already there. Throughout the whole world they are chanting Hare Krsna. Is not that magic? Hmm? Foreign countries, foreign religion, and they are accepting Krsna and chanting Hare Krsna. Is not that magic?

Indian man (1): It is.

Prabhupada: And still more magic? The world is chanting Hare Krsna. Boliye?

He is yogi. There are many varieties of yogis. And Krsna concludes, "Of all the yogis, big, big yogis, the person who is always remembering Krsna and chanting Hare Krsna maha-mantra is first class." This is said by Krsna, not by me. Therefore it is authorized statement. Without Krsna consciousness, all these mystic powers... They may be temporarily some magic, but Krsna says that "One who is always remembering Me," satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drḍha-vrataḥ [Bg 9.14], "he is first-class yogi."

So all these persons who are chanting Hare Krsna according to the prescribed rules and regulations, without any offense... There are ten kinds of offenses. So in the beginning there may be offenses. It doesn't matter. It will be rectified. Offenseless chanting means mukti, and then pure chanting means love of Godhead. There are three stages. In the beginning, when one begins chanting, it is not pure; there are so many offenses. But chanting, chanting, the offenses become purified. [background talking] Offenseless chanting is not purified completely, but it is offenseless. So offenseless chanting makes one liberated, and then pure chanting makes one lover of God. This is the process. So chanting is a great mystic power. Caitanya Mahaprabhu has recommended, ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12]: "By chanting, your heart becomes purified." Ceto-darpana. We are suffering in this material world on account of...

[background talking] [aside:] Ask him not to talk loudly.

On account of impurities...

[aside:] What is the use of talking? The first impurity is identifying...

[aside:] Stop him. Don't talk at all.

Indian man (1): It is one gentle..., one person. He says, "I am Bengali." And he has got some trouble. He was told that "If you have got any physical trouble, go to the medical practitioners."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (1): "If you have got any spiritual, then you can stay." He is continuing. That is all.

Prabhupada: [aside:] Don't talk. Why you are talking?

So our real trouble is that we have become conditioned by the material identification, "I am this body." Everyone is thinking, "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brahmana," "I am sannyasi," everything identification with the body. That is the dirty thing. So one has to purify, that "I am neither American, neither Indian, nor brahmana, or so many designations." Then it is called cleansing the heart. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam [Cc Madhya 19.170].

That is mukti, when you don't identify with this material body. And so long you identify with this material body, either you become a sannyasi with some beard or a grhastha without some beard, the same thing-identifying with the body. So ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12] means to become free from the bodily designation. And sastra says, yasyatma-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13].

This body is composition of three dhatu-kapha, pitta, vayu-according to Ayur Veda; and according to medical science, it is skin and then muscle, blood, bone and marrow, stool, urine, those, combination. So I am not this combination of stool, bone, skin, blood. But people are taking like that. When they are diseased, they take care of the body. Of course, it is not that we should not take care. But that is superficial. Real care should be taken of the soul within the body. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe [Bg 2.13]. Dehinaḥ, dehi. Dehinaḥ and deha.

So anyone who is identifying with this body in either... According to Vedic civilization, the bodily identification is divided into eight: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra, brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Varnasrama-dharma. So human civilization begins, according to Vedic understanding, when there is varnasrama system. Otherwise it is not human civilization. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated, catur-varnyam maya srstam [Bg 4.13].

This system should be followed. Then, gradually, one has to come to the spiritual. Chaotic society cannot help us. There must be systematic social order: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra, catur-varnyam, and brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. Sannyasa is not voluntary, but it is compulsory. At the last stage one must take sannyasa. After fiftieth year one must take to vanaprastha, vanam vrajet. This is system. So, system of purification, how to become designationless. And if we keep the designation, then, sastra says, sa eva go-kharaḥ [SB 10.84.13]:

"One who keeps the bodily designation, he's no better than the cows and the asses, animal." So Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends that... Caitanya Maha... This is the sastric, Vedic culture, that we have to purify ourself from the bodily designation. That is called ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12], cleansing the dirty things within the core of the heart, that "I am this"-"I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brahmana," "I am sannyasi," "I am grhastha," "I am white," "I am black." The the dirty things. So these dirty things can be cleansed by chanting this Hare Krsna mantra. Srnvatam sva-kathaḥ krsnaḥ punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ [SB 1.2.27].

This chanting and hearing is punya-sravana-kirtanaḥ. If you do not know anything about, if you simply chant and hear, you become purified, punya. Because on account of dirty things, impious life, you have become covered by different bodies. Mrtyu-samsara-vartmani. Different bodies means the way of birth and death. That you have to stop. And that is stopped when you get Krsna; otherwise not. Therefore Krsna says, I think, in the Ninth Chapter... Find out this verse, asraddadhanaḥ purusa dharmasyasya paran-tapa, mam aprapya [Bg 9.3]. You cannot get Krsna. If you have no faith in Bhagavad-gita, then you cannot get Krsna. If you don't care for Krsna, that is another thing, but if you want to get Krsna, then what Krsna says, you follow. Read.

Translation: "Those who are not faithful on the path of devotional service cannot attain Me, O conqueror of foes, but return to birth and death in this material world."

Prabhupada: Purport?

Tamala Krsna: Purport: "The faithless cannot accomplish this process of devotional of service. That is the purport of this verse. Faith is created by association with devotees. Unfortunate people, even after hearing all the evidence of Vedic literature from great personalities, still have no faith in God." [break]

Prabhupada: Pure bhakti.

There should be no mixture of jnana and karma or even yoga. Anukūlyena krsnanu... Simply to cultivate Krsna consciousness favorably. "Favorably" means what Krsna wants. That is favorable. If you do what Krsna wants, that is favorable. And if you do what Krsna does not want, that is unfavorable; that is not bhakti. Just like Kamsa. He was always thinking of Krsna, but that was not favorably. He was thinking otherwise, how to kill Krsna, and that is not bhakti. The gopis were also thinking of Krsna, how to make Him happy, and that is favorable. So anukūlyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama [Cc Madhya 19.167]. Without any mixture, adulteration of jnana and karma, that is pure devotion. Then?

Tamala Krsna: "Those who have no faith, even after hearing about Krsna and the excellence of devotional service, who think that it is simply eulogy, find the path very difficult even if they are supposed..." [break]

Prabhupada: So without this faith, nobody can achieve the association of Krsna. There are two things. You become associate of Krsna, or you become associate of this material world. So if you do not become associate of Krsna, then the next step is this association of material world. And association of material world means accepting one type of body and enjoy or suffer for some time; then you get another body. Mrtyu-samsara-vartmani [Bg 9.3]. Now we have to make our choice, whether you want to stop this material way of life and attain the eternal spiritual life...

If you get the association of Krsna, then you haven't got to come here, this material world. Duḥkhalayam. Krsna says it is duḥkhalayam. Either you take birth in a very rich, aristocratic family, born in the upper planetary system as demigods-Brahma, Indra, Candra, like that-or you take your birth, an insignificant ant; wherever you are in material body, it is duḥkhalayam. That you cannot avoid. Duḥkhalayam asasvatam [Bg 8.15]. And you cannot make any compromise that "Never mind it is very much miserable. I shall enjoy." So that also will not be allowed. Asasvatam. Your tendency is to live forever. So that will not be allowed. Asasvata. So this requires knowledge, intelligence, that "If I am eternal," na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20], "I am not destroyed even this body is destroyed." Then you should seek after eternal happiness. Why temporary? That is not in your interest. That eternal happiness you will have when you go back to Krsna; otherwise not. These are the statement in the Bhagavad-gita.

So if we do not try to understand the real purpose of Bhagavad-gita, and if we theorize, "Bhagavad-gita means nonviolence. Bhagavad-gita means to become patriot," these are materialism. We should avoid this wrong interpretation, misguiding direction of blind leaders. We'll not get any benefit out of it. So we are trying to rectify this. That's all. Everything is there. Any question is solved by Krsna. Politics, economics, religion, culture, philosophy-everything is discussed very thoroughly. Simply one has to understand. Then he becomes fixed up in Krsna consciousness. People are generally after yoga, especially the Westerners. I think they have come here for perfection of yoga. But here it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, mayy asakta-manaḥ partha yogam yunjan mad-asrayaḥ. That is first class, to increase your attachment for Krsna. Mayy asakta-manaḥ partha yogam yunjan. This is yoga, how to increase the attachment for Krsna. This is called bhakti-yoga. So this yoga can be practiced-mayy asakta-manaḥ par..., yogam, mad-asrayaḥ, not anyone's other's asraya. Mad-asrayaḥ. Taking shelter of Krsna or taking shelter of Krsna's personal persons, personal associates, mat-para. Mat-para means one who has dedicated his life for Krsna. He is called mat-para. Or directly under Krsna. Directly under Krsna is difficult. Because we do not understand Krsna, therefore we have to take shelter of a person who is already under the shelter of Krsna.

Indian man (1): But mat-para people are very seldom available.

Prabhupada: No. How do you know? If you do not know what is the meaning of mat-para, how you can say "seldom"? Do you know what is mat-para? Unless you know who is mat-para, how you can say like that? You have no knowledge. Mat-para means a simple thing: one who has fully surrendered to Krsna. That's all. This is very seldom? There are so many. But you have decided "seldom." Why seldom? Here you see so many young men, our association. They are fully surrendered to Krsna. They do not know anything else than Krsna. So why it is seldom? You won't take. That is your fault. Rather, they are coming to you. They are canvassing. But you are so stubborn, you'll not take it. That is your fault. They are canvassing door to door. Why do you say, "It is seldom"? It is very easily available. But you won't take. That is your fault. Caitanya Mahaprabhu personally came, and He canvassed door to door. He sent His men door to door. We are sending all over the world. But you do not come. Mat-para is not seldom. At least at the present moment, it has become very easily available. But you won't take. That is your fault. [break]

Ceto-darpana-marjanam. That is... Caitanya Mahaprabhu says. Ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni..., sreyaḥ-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidya-vadhū-jivanam, anandambudhi-vardhanam [Cc Antya 20.12]. Anandambudhi. Ambudhi means sea. You do not find that the sea is increasing. But this transcendental sea of blissful life increases. Anandambudhi-vardhanam sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krsna-sahkirtanam. Very simple thing. You take to sri-krsna-sahkirtanam and see the result. Why you say it is seldom? It is very easy, but you won't take. Seldom we find the followers. Otherwise it is very cheap. Rūpa Gosvami worshiped Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu with these words:

"My Lordship, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, You are the most magnanimous person of charity." Why? Because, krsna-prema-pradaya: "One cannot understand Krsna, and You are directly delivering love of Krsna." It is not seldom. If you want to love somebody, you must know him. Love is not with the air. If you want to love somebody, then you must know what he is and why should I love him. So nobody can understand Krsna. Where is the question of love? If you do not understand what is Krsna, the question of loving Him does not arise. But here Caitanya Mahaprabhu is giving directly love of Krsna. That means Krsna understanding is automatically. Finished. Therefore He is addressed as the most magnanimous.

So it is not at all seldom. As the age is fallen, the most magnanimous incarnation is Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and He is giving directly Krsna, krsna-prema. You take it. Why don't you take it? It is not seldom. You do not like to take it. That is the disease. And that is asraddadhana. There is no sraddha. Asraddadhanaḥ purusaḥ, mam aprapya [Bg 9.3]. How you can get Krsna? There is no sraddha. Therefore they must suffer in the cycle of birth and death. Nivartante mrtyu-samsara. So you voluntarily accept this cycle of birth, don't accept Krsna-then who can help you? If you have decided to cut your own throat, how can I help you? You'll do it. Whenever you'll get opportunity, you'll cut your throat. How much I can give you protection? That is going on. They have no faith in the words of Krsna. They'll manufacture ideas. It is not "seldom." It is my dogged obstinacy that is checking. We cannot give up. Krsna has..., sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg 18.66]. That you cannot do. You want to keep in the same position, and at the same time, you want to understand Krsna. That is not possible. In this Rishikesh, tirtha-ksetra, everyone comes to get some spiritual enlightenment, but who is talking of Krsna? Am I right? And there is Gita-bhavan, Gita this, Gita that. What is that "Gita"? Gita commentation... Nobody's interested. They don't like to hear even about Krsna. This is the position.

So mat-para is not seldom. [laughs] The followers are seldom. But Krsna says mat-para. "If you want to practice this yoga..." Mayy asakta-manaḥ partha yogam... This is yoga. Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg 4.1]. This is real yoga. So nobody's interested. Then what can be done? My Guru Maharaja used to say that "If one is selling langera [special kind of mango], and he's canvassing, 'Please come here. Take langera. There is no price for it,' then people will not take. 'Why langera he's distributing free?' " And that is the position. We are going to door to door: "Take Krsna." They think, "It is very cheap thing. What is the use? Let us practice some other yoga." And Krsna says, yoginam api sarvesam [Bg 6.47]. We don't take. So langera is not seldom, but the person who take lahgḍa am is seldom. This is the difficulty. Krsna says, "By this practice of yoga..." Aiye.

Who listens to Him? He says, "How you can understand Me perfectly," samagram, "and," asamsayam, "without any doubt." So Krsna is speaking about Him, which is without any doubt and without any difficulty, in fullness, but who is hearing Him? That is seldom. Otherwise Krsna has become very easily available. Namo maha-vadanyaya krsna-prema-pradaya te [Cc Madhya 19.53]. Even krsna-prema. But we won't take. Is it seldom?

Indian man (1): Our fault.

Prabhupada: Hmm? Yes.

Indian man (1): Our fault.

Prabhupada: It is our fault we won't take. A man has fallen in the blind well, and he's crying, "Save me! Save me!" and when somebody comes and gives him a rope-"You catch it. I shall lift you"-but he'll not touch it, then who can save him? The rope is there, the man is there, and he is crying; but when we request that "You take it," he won't take. Aiye. So how he can be saved? And Krsna said, mad-asrayaḥ. But he'll not take mad-asrayaḥ. He'll take asraya of something else. This is the position. Mayy asakta-manaḥ partha. People are harassed to understand God, whether there is God or not God, who is God. When I first went to America, the theory was going that "God is dead." And what was the...

Tamala Krsna: There was a newspaper...

Prabhupada: Paper... Yes?

Tamala Krsna: When Prabhupada first did the first public kirtana, they said that "We thought God is dead, but now we see that Swami Bhaktivedanta has made God alive again."

Prabhupada: This was the first remark. Then, gradually, these boys joined. They were after God, but they were given to understand that "God is dead. Now you take to LSD." So the... God is speaking:

"Take perfect knowledge of God from Me." Why don't you do that? Boliye. What is the reason? Boliye, Swamiji. When God is speaking that "You take from Me perfect and complete knowledge of God," so why don't you take it?

Indian man (1): We are still attached to material side.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, but we are denying. Is it not? Hmm? When... Suppose a big man. You do not know what he is. But if this man says, "You want to know me? All right, I shall disclose all my secrets to you. Try to understand." So why don't you..., do not take it? If you want to know the person, and the person is explaining himself, why don't you take it? Why theorize that "God is like this. God is like this"? What is the meaning? When the person has come to explain about himself... Asamsayam samagram mam yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu [Bg 7.1]: "Hear." Hearing is the process of knowledge. Therefore our Vedas are called sruti. The knowledge has to be acquired through ear. My Guru Maharaja used to say that "Don't try to see a sadhu by your eyes. You try to see a sadhu by ears." kan se sadhu dekho, ankha se nahi. [Transl. Try to see a sadhu by your ears and not by your eyes." If you try to see a sadhu by your eyes, you will make mistake. See with your ears what he is saying.] Tavac ca sobhate mūrkho yavat kincin na bhasate. [Canakya Panḍita]. A fool is respected so long he does not speak. [Transl. When he speaks, he is exposed. Therefore] For real perfect knowledge, one has to hear. Srotriyam brahma-nistham. tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet, srotriyam brahma-nistham. [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. Sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam. There is guru. One who has heard perfectly from the authorities, he is guru. Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuḥ sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. And who is guru? Sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam. Every direction is there.

[Transl. These statements are there in the sastra.] So about from... Apart from sastra, the vedanta-krt, vedanta-vit, Krsna, He is speaking. Asamsayam samagram mam yatha jnasyasi tac chrnu [Bg 7.1]: "Just hear." And He's vedanta-vit, vedanta-krt. He knows what is Vedanta, and He has compiled Vedanta, and He is ready to speak. We don't hear Krsna. How much unfortunate we are.

[aside:] Here.

Indian man (2): [Transl. Attachment for Krsna only and shelter of Krsna only, these both…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. How there can be shelter without attachment? If there is no attachment then how there can be shelter?]

Indian man (2): [Transl. In this world the attachment is somewhere and the shelter is somewhere else.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. You have to give up all that. You will have to increase your attachment for Krsna only. That is called ceto-darpana-marjanam. Attachment is a propensity, and everyone has it.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. Everyone has it?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. But he has no shelter.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Attachment, someone has got attachment for God and someone has got attachment for dog. A person who has no shelter, he keeps a dog. Every day he feeds it, bathes it. That means attachment is there. He has no family. In Europe and America there are so many like that. In their old age, they don't marry anyway, so no family, they simply keep a dog and watch television. They have no other alternative. That means attachment is there and it has to be applied somewhere. They don't know, so they apply it in television and dog. And who knows, he applies it to God. That is the difference. Attachment must be used somewhere.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. And that must be the shelter also.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. The shelter will be where the attachment is. There they make will for big, big estate in the name of dogs. Millions of rupees. "I have given to the dog." What an intense attachment! What a dog will do with an estate? But they write like that.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. They just need some sort of support. Either of God or of maya.]

Prabhupada:

[Transl. When one gives up attachment for Krsna then his attachment for maya increases. And

[Transl. when one's attachment for Krsna develops then his attachment for maya is automatically destroyed. This is very simple. That is why Krsna says "Increase your attachment for Me". So follow His instructions. That way all attachment for maya will automatically be vanquished.

[Transl. Bhakti, attachment for the supreme Lord. One who has developed bhakti,] so naturally he'll be averse to maya. He's no more interested. [Transl. See these foreign people, they used to drink wine, eat meat, indulge in illicit sex and commit all kinds of sinful activities. Now you see them. Because they have developed attachment for Krsna, all their bad habits are gone. They didn't have to give them up separately. They became disgusted. What is all this] Nonsense. This is the test. Krsna, bhaktiḥ paresanubhavaḥ. [Transl. Just like if one has got a delicious laddu, then who will eat molasses? Similarly by developing attachment for Krsna one's attachment for maya will automatically vanish.] There is no need of separate endeavor. [Transl. He need not endeavor separately. Try to understand what the Supreme Lord said in the beginning,

[Transl. that after death one has to accept another body. Now the next body, the Lord didn't say "You will take birth in such and such family, such and such dynasty, or in a human form." No. So if that's not the case then where is our family? Where is our society? Where is our nation? Everything is gone. This simple thing they don't understand. Just this one line of Bhagavad-gita, and yet they claim to read Gita. Everybody is attached to this only. One is attached to this body, another is attached to his family, another is attached to his nation, another is attached to his community, and another is attached to religion. But if they understand only one thing, tatha dehantara-praptir then all attachments will go away.

[Transl. Nobody understands it. Now we are attached to this room. We know it's not ours, so why we should be attached? We leave it. This is my house. Decorate it very nicely and live. We know that it is only for ten days, then where is the question of attachment? But no, this is my society, this is my family, this is my community, this is my nation. So how will they have attachment for the Supreme Lord? This is illusion. They think these are most important. If you understand this one line of Bhagavad-gita, you will be liberated. There is no need to study so much.] The first line Krsna says that asocyan anvasocas tvam prajna-vadams ca bhasase, gatasūn agatasūms ca nanusocanti [Bg 2.11]. [Transl. If your attachment for this body is removed, then you will become liberated.]

Indian man (2): [Transl. How attachment for Krsna can be increased?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. There is a process. If you actually have faith in the words of the Supreme Lord then you will have attachment. If there is no faith in the first place, "Let Him talk, we will do what we want", then how there will be attachment? "Let Lord Krsna talk and we will do as we like." Then how will there be attachment? Answer? The Supreme Lord says,

[Transl. This is yoga. Bhakti-yoga. Simply follow the rules and regulations of bhakti-yoga, and you will have attachment.]

[Transl. This is the ladder. First of all you must have sraddha, then sadhu-sahga, then bhajana-kriya, then anartha-nivrttiḥ, then nistha, then ruci and then asaktis. The path is there. One has to approach a bona fide spiritual master and learn from him how to increase attachment. Just to watch from a distance will not do. Sadhu-sahga. And who is a sadhu?]

[Transl. [aside:] Please come. One who worships the Supreme Lord, he is a sadhu. So sadhu-sahga is required. adau sraddha tataḥ sadhu-sahga. Everything is given in the Bhagavad-gita. The path is very easy. You see how they follow the easy path, and it is working. But we will not follow it. So what can be done? If we don't follow the path then again we will develop attachment for maya. We are not ready to catch the rope and we say "Please pick me up." You catch the rope. No, when the Lord wants it will happen. The rope is right there in front of your eyes, just catch it. This is the position. The Supreme Lord personally comes and says, tesam aham samuddharta mrtyu-samsara-sagarat "I have descended to lift you. Just take it."] Find out this, tesam evanukampartham.

Indian man (2): [Transl. Chapter Seven, Bhagavad-gita sloka.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. By taking shelter of the Lord does anyone lack in knowledge? jnana-dipena bhasvata. [Bg 10.11] When the Supreme Lord gives him an opportunity to become wise, then who can be more learned than him?] Read it.

Prabhupada: No. Tesam evanukampartham.

Prabhupada: Is there any purport?

Tamala Krsna: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. Purport by Srila Prabhupada: "When..." [break]

Prabhupada: So let us stop today. Somebody kirtana. [kirtana begins] [end]