Room Conversation with George Harrison & the Shankars – August 5, 1973, London

730805R1-LONDON [93:21 Minutes]

A letter from Zaehner today...

Prabhupada: ...big, big palace.

George: Yeah. Uhh, this is Lakshmi Shankar, Viji Shankar and Sooma Shankar...

Prabhupada: I see.

George: ...and Dori.

[brief Hindi exchange with Shankars; laughter]

Prabhupada: So, you're keeping all right, healthy?

George: Just about.

Prabhupada:

Atma means the body, mind or soul. Atma. All these can be designated as atma. Those who are in bodily concept of life, for them atma means this body. Those who are in mental concept of life-somebody, they think the mind is the soul-so for them, atma means mind. And those who are actually in knowledge, the atma means the soul. In the sastra there says that either of these, atmanam sarvato rakset, you must first take care of, of this atma.

Then tato dharma: then you must take care of your religious principles. Atmanam sarvato rakset tato dharmam tato dhanam. Then you try to protect your money. [laughter] Because atmanam vikrti sati, if your atma is in disturbed condition, tato dharmam tato dhanam, then where you keep your religion and money? So atmanam sarvato rakset.

Syamasundara: Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Syamasundara: I've got I got a letter from Zaehner today...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ...where he not only apologizes, but he begs you to see him. [laughs]

[aside to George:] That professor we talked about last time, who wrote all those nasty things, that Krsna's immoral and all.

George: No, what happened?

Syamasundara: We were talking about it last time you were here.

Prabhupada: Let me see what is letter...

Syamasundara: I'll read it. [laughter] He said, "Thank you for your letter of 28th July. You've put me in a rather embar..." This is a letter that Mukunda wrote to him. He's addressing, "Dear Mr. Grant." "You've put me in a rather embarrassing position, since I have only just received a long letter from, I think, the President of your London center," Satsvarūpa, "strongly criticizing me for what the Observer alleges. I said at a meeting of the World Council of Faiths at Bristol…" Oh, I "…what the Observer alleges I said at a meeting of the World Council of Faiths at Bristol.

He apparently thinks I am a naradhama, among other things," [laughter] "and clearly a most undesirable person in every way. It is true that I quoted passages from the Upanisads and the Gita which imply that the mukta is…, that the mukta regards good and evil…," no, "disregards good and evil, and pointed out the dangers of this doctrine if it fell into the hands of people who have received no instruction. I also pointed out that this is equally true of the Bible, which is…, which was, of course, not reported in the Observer.

In view of all this, I wonder if your master is still interested in seeing me. I rather doubt whether we would have very much in common, since there would appear to be little common ground between one who describes himself as 'His Divine Grace,' who is in the direct disciplic line from Krsna, and one who, with the best will in the world, cannot but be bewildered by the proliferation of persons who make similar claims on behalf of themselves. However, if you still feel that a meeting would serve any useful purpose, please let me know."

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Syamasundara: "Yours sincerely, R. C. Zaehner."

Prabhupada: So if you can read the letter which Satsvarūpa has sent him, they…, they can hear.

Syamasundara: Oh, I guess you want to hear the letter that...

Prabhupada: It is in response to that letter.

Syamasundara: This is in response to this.

Devotee (1): Yeah.

George: Well what did he say, the professor?

Syamasundara: He, he accused Krsna of being immoral. [laughter]

George: On what grounds?

Syamasundara: Because He was killing...

George: On the battlefield?

Syamasundara: Yeah, and 'cause He didn't regard evil and…, good and evil, that they were both the same.

Prabhupada: Who says things like that?

Revatinandana: Exactly. And he says "amoral"- or neither immoral nor moral, but without morality.

Syamasundara: And it says, "Dear Professor Zaehner," and Prabhupada actually wrote the letter, but Satsvarūpa, his secretary, signed it. It says, "I am writing in response to your recent address to the World Congress of Faiths, which was attended by several of our members and which was subsequently reported in the Observer, 22nd July 1973, under the title 'The Logic of Charles Manson.' In your speech you have accused Krsna, the speaker of the Vedic text Bhagavad-gita, as immoral. Exactly how you have tried to substantiate that Krsna is the teacher of an immoral and amoral dangerous doctrine is a matter which can be discussed another time. But I wish to simply point out to you that having accused Krsna, you have as such fallen into a position of being very strongly accused yourself by Lord Krsna Himself. As He has stated in the Bhagavad-gita…"

[to devotee:] You want to read that?

Pradyumna: Yeah.

Syamasundara: " 'Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by... ' "

Prabhupada: He is actual [indistinct] the lowest of the mankind.

Syamasundara: Naradhamaḥ, that's what he…, that means "lowest of mankind." " '…whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me.' In other words, Lord Krsna is stating that if one is in opposition to Him, he must fall into one of these four categories: either he is grossly foolish, like the ass or the rascal person; or he is the lowest of mankind, without religion, although acting as a civilized person; or he may have a good intelligence or academic standing, but his intelligence has been stolen away by illusion; or he is an outright demon bent on the destruction of mankind. So you are accused by this statement of the Bhagavad-gita as belonging to one of these four categories of miscreants.

"Neither can Krsna's charge against you be taken lightly. Krsna's statements are supported by all the acaryas, or saintly persons and spiritual masters of the Vedic philosophy. Going back hundreds and thousands of years, those who are the molders of the Hindu or Indian destiny, such as Madhva, Ramanuja, Visnu Svami, Nimbarka, as well as Vyasadeva, Brahma, Narada, and in the recent age Lord Caitanya and the disciplic succession up to our own spiritual master, His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, all accept Lord Krsna as the Absolute Truth, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, whose statements are taken as the highest authority. Even Sahkaracarya, the leader of the impersonalist school of Vedic thought, has accepted, narayanaḥ paro 'vyaktat: 'Narayana, Lord Krsna, is above this material manifestation.' Whatever Krsna says is accepted as truth by virtually all the leaders of Vedic philosophy since time immemorial.

"So we are laymen, and we have to choose. We are faced with two accusations: yours against Lord Krsna as being immoral, and Lord Krsna's accusation against you as a rascal," [laughter] "the lowest of mankind, whose intelligence is stolen, and of the nature of a demon."

Prabhupada: We are placing ourselves laymen. Now, whose accusation we shall accept-either Krsna's or yours? That is our problem.

Syamasundara: "As we have just explained, Krsna's description of your miscreant position is supported by all the stalwart acaryas without exception. Nor can we take the view that the above-named philosophers are sectarian in their support of Krsna as the Supreme Truth. You are taken as a great Sanskrit scholar, but apparently you have not noted the commentary on Bhagavad-gita in Sanskrit by His Holiness Ramanuja Acarya.

At every verse Ramanuja has presented many quotes from the Upanisads to support his favoring Krsna's position as the very source of knowledge and liberation. So Krsna's position is very solid among those who are the most reputable scholars. But who will agree with you and your accusation against Lord Krsna? The Vedic scripture Srimad-Bhagavatam clearly states that only men of a like nature to yours would join you in taking such an infamous position."

Prabhupada: Sva vid-varaha ustra kharaiḥ. Read it.

Pradyumna:

Syamasundara: " 'Men who are like dogs, hogs, camels and asses praise those men who never listen to the transcendental pastimes of Lord Sri Krsna, the deliverer from evils.' In other words, although you have become a leader of the so-called learned society of men," he's a big professor at Oxford, "because you are opposed to glorifying Lord Krsna, your followers are not actually to the human standard," [laughter] "but are no better than the above-named animals.

"According to the Bhagavatam, if one is essentially godless and opposed to acknowledging the supremacy of the Supreme Lord Krsna, then although he may be big or great in the world, his greatness is no more than the greatness of a big animal who is looked up to by smaller animals. By the estimation of scriptures and acaryas, such a so-called big man is never given a place in the category of man on account of his atheistic temperament. So a sane man seeking truth will certainly be inclined to follow the standard accepted version of the greatest philosophers and true humanitarians in the history of the science of God. But who will follow you in your accusation against Lord Krsna?

"It is unfortunate that you have assumed a conversant authoritative attitude towards the Vedic scriptures. To have actual knowledge of Krsna and the Bhagavad-gita is not such an easy thing. Unfortunately, many people have no doubt assumed that you know all about Krsna and the Bhagavad-gita, because of your holding a professorship in Eastern Religion at Oxford University and because you have published a number of books. But that is not the criteria for understanding Krsna. As Lord Krsna states in the Bhagavad-gita,"

Pradyumna:

Syamasundara: " 'Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.'

It is not that one can be a cigarette smoker and liquor drinker and habituated to common vices and yet speak something about Krsna. Even among those who are above all these things, who are siddhas, perfect souls, hardly one of such siddhas can understand Krsna. So because you are not even trying to become a siddha, we have to conclude by honest reason that your statements about Lord Krsna and Bhagavad-gita have no value.

"Your version that Krsna is acting immorally is not true. Arjuna, the original disciple of Bhagavad-gita, who heard it directly and understood it from Krsna Himself, spoke as follows:"

Pradyumna:

Syamasundara: " 'Arjuna said: You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person.' Here the word pavitram means 'the purest.' So Arjuna is addressing Krsna as the purest, the Supreme Pure, and this is your rascaldom, that you are accusing the most pure as immoral. In the Bhagavatam it is described that when the witch Pūtana came to Krsna, she tried to kill Him during His childhood pastimes by smearing her breast with poison and offering it to baby Krsna to suck.

Krsna not only sucked her breast but sucked out her life air, and thus the demon gave up her life. But Krsna is so moral that although Pūtana came to kill Him, because He accepted her as a mother and took milk from her breast, Krsna awarded her liberation after death and gave her the same exalted place as His own loving mother, Yasoda. Also, on the Battlefield of Kuruksetra, where the Bhagavad-gita was spoken, those who came to fight with Krsna and were killed by Him were granted eternal liberation in the spiritual sky.

"Because He is absolute, whatever Krsna does is the highest morality and works factually for everyone's ultimate happiness and well-being. Krsna's pastimes are hardly understandable to the nondevotee, that these are the authorized descriptions of the Vedic literature. The people in general should be warned of your position so that you will not mislead them by misinterpretation. They should not be baffled by your outward appearance as a great scholar. If we consult those who are truly authorities, the great acaryas, we understand your position is very unfavorable and can only be relieved by your attempting to publicly rectify accusations so foolishly made against the name and words of Lord Krsna in Bhagavad-gita. Yours sincerely, Satsvarūpa." Also, that Alistair Hardy wrote a nice letter.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Yes.

Syamasundara: Today.

George: Who is Alistair Hardy?

Devotee (2): He's [indistinct] a religious experience researcher.

Syamasundara: He's just saying that he'd like to come again sometime.

Prabhupada: I shall invite him again. Lord Brockway, he also came. Fenner Brockway.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: He, and also [indistinct].

Revatinandana: House of Lords. House of Lords.

Prabhupada: Now I propose to start a Society. I will explain to you, Syamasundara, [clears throat] The Society of the Sinless Man. How do you like this idea?

George: Good idea, but mightn't get many members. [laughter]

Syamasundara: No, but everyone will say, "Oh, I am sinless," [laughter] "I'll join." Otherwise if we go to them and they'll have to say, "Oh, then I am a sinner."

Prabhupada: Yesterday, Doctor Sumehta, Schumacher he came.

Syamasundara: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Another, John…?

Syamasundara: Papworth.

Prabhupada: Papworth. So we have three our stock. So [chuckling] they agreed half, but not fully, that what is sinful life. And unless people become sinless, it is not possible to understand what is God. That's a fact. Because as we have stated,

So Krsna, God, He is pavitram paramam, the Supreme Pure. So without becoming pure, nobody can understand what is the nature of God. Just like without becoming fire, you cannot enter into fire. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita:

So people are indulging in sinful activity, so in that position it is not possible to understand God. So our this Krsna consciousness movement is purifying. Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,

So our movement is… It is very difficult to find out in this age actually a sinless man; therefore we are giving chance of hearing this maha-mantra,

So if one is given this chance, as we are actually experiencing… When I started this movement in 1966 I simply, you knowing about that, that Tompkinson Square? I was simply chanting Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, that's all, for three hours, from two 'til five. And the boys and girls, they are coming, dancing. In this way gradually they came. So Caitanya Mahaprabhu said that ceto-darpana-marjanam: this process, simply by hearing Hare Krsna maha-mantra, the heart will be cleansed, ceto-darpana-marjanam. Darpana. Darpana means "mirror." Just like if you want to see your face, you have a clear mirror, you can see exactly your face. Similarly, when our this cetah, which is full of dirty things, if it is polished, if it is cleansed, then we can see our real face, what I am. That is, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, ceto-darpana-marjanam. And as soon as one understands what he is, then immediately his all problems are solved.

Ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. We are suffering just like in the blazing forest fire. When there is fire in the forest all the animals become perturbed, disturbed, especially the snakes. Other animals, they have got legs, they can jump over. But the snakes, they have to crawl. So when there is fire in the forest, the dry foliage that catch fire, so these snakes, they die first. They cannot jump; they have to crawl. And the snake means envious. The snake business is envious. Without any fault it will bite, and the man will die. Envious. Therefore Canakya Panḍita has said,

That there are two jealous, envious beings: one is the snake and another is the…, a man envious. So the envious man is more dangerous than the snake. Why? That you can bring under control the snake by herbs and mantra. Still in India there are experts who can by mantra can catch snake, venomous snake. There is a art. So it can be under, brought under control. But the envious man cannot be, I mean, brought under control; therefore he is more dangerous. So we are living in such world.

In another place, Prahlada Maharaja has said that when his father was killed, Hiranyakasipu, he requested Lord Nrsimhadeva that "Now kindly mitigate Your anger, because nobody is sorry for killing my father, that he was just like a snake and scorpion." So sadhur api...

[aside:] Bring me verse.

That even sadhu, they also take pleasure when a snake or scorpion is killed. A sadhu, modeta, vrscika-sarpa-hatya [SB 7.9.14]. A sadhu does not want killing of any living entity, but when a scorpion or a snake is killed, even one sadhu also takes pleasure, "Yes, it is right." They are so dangerous.

So the whole world is now full with krūraḥ, sarpat krūrataraḥ khalaḥ, envious. Whole world is surcharged with enviousness. Nation to nation, person to person, there is competition. So how they can be happy? Therefore Krsna…, Caitanya Mahaprabhu suggests that "Let them chant Hare Krsna maha-mantra, then this blazing forest fire will be extinguished." Ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. Then sreyaḥ-kairava-candrika-vitaranam, that actual life of knowledge will begin. And at last He says, param vijayate sri-krsna-sahkirtanam. And in the Bhagavat also it is confirmed,

Simply by chanting.

So those who are actually thinking of the welfare of the whole human society, they should combinedly try how to spread this Krsna consciousness movement, chanting of Hare Krsna maha-mantra. People may simply have some chance to hear. Then gradually everything will become nice. So this is our mission. We are trying to give chance people to hear harer nama. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ. It is not that as so many, this pantheist or the so-called Mayavadis, they say that "You can chant any name. You can…" No. That is not. Sastra says, sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ, or Visnu. Harer nama: the name of Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Not anyone's, everyone's name. No. So that is also another enviousness: "Why Krsna's nama should be chanted? We have got our own God." So envious, even to Krsna. These are the difficulties.

Still, it is our duty, as it is described in the sastras, to give everyone the chance of hearing this holy name of the Lord: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. So begin some krsna-kirtana. So we chant? Yes? Begin sahkirtana. Bring kartalas.

[Srila Prabhupada begins clapping. Chanting lasts about 8 minutes, concluding with Prabhupada chanting prema dhvani.]

Thank you very much.

[devotees offer obeisances]

So, prasadam is ready?

Devotee (4): Revatinandana?

Revatinandana: It's all cooked.

Devotee (4): Downstairs?

Revatinandana: It should be in the kitchen and maybe keeping warm in the oven, the small stove. You know those two stoves? The white stove in the oven.

Syamasundara: Can we play the tapes?

Prabhupada: What?

Syamasundara: George has brought a tape of those songs like Jaya Jagadisa Hare...

Prabhupada: Oh.

Syamasundara: ...and other songs that they made...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: ...with Ravi.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes?

[Hindi exchange while waiting for tape to play]

Syamasundara: Turn it up.

[first song-Jaya Jagadisa Hare-about 4 minutes.]

Prabhupada: Jaya Jagadisa Hare. Very nice.

Syamasundara: There's more songs?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Devotee: There's more.

[another piece begins, with flute introduction]

Prabhupada: Who has played that flute?

George: Hariprasad Chaurasia

Syamasundara: About Krsna, this song. Ravi wrote this song.

[Song is Indian-style music arrangement with English lyrics. Examples of lyrics: "Krsna, where are You?" "I hear Your flute," "Please come wipe my tears."

Prabhupada: Krsna-pyari?

Devotees: "Where are You?"

Prabhupada: Oh, "Krsna where You are?"

[Third piece begins-music background for spoken English lyrics: "Where has my glorious Krsna gone, my only love? Without Him I feel so restless. There's no peace, no joy. Aching for Him, I cry out, but He does not hear. O my cruel love." Song then continues in Hindi.]

Prabhupada: This is in Hindi.

Syamasundara: George has produced this record.

[Another piece begins. English introduction lyrics to string background: "You came to me in my dreams, O my beloved Krsna, and whispered such sweet and tender things to me. I awoke startled: 'Where is my love? Where has He gone, my Krsna? Oh, how can I face this night alone?' " Song continues in Hindi.]

Prabhupada: [indistinct aside] Is it open? What is it?

George: The Krsna song...

[music begins; background conversation between devotee and George]

Syamasundara: Same Krsna song, but in Western style.

Prabhupada: Oh.

[Music arrangement is Western style, lyrics in English: "I am missing You, O Krsna. Where are You? Though I can't see You, I hear Your flute all around. Please come wipe my tears, and make me smile.]

Syamasundara: That's all.

Prabhupada: There is a verse,

All the Gosvamis, they were executing their devotional service in Vrndavana, and this is their devotional attitude: he radhe-"O Radharani"; vraja-devike-"O the gopis"; he radhe vraja-devike, he nanda-sūno kutaḥ-"O the son of Nanda Maharaja, Krsna, where you are all?"

Syamasundara: Where you are…?

Prabhupada: All.

Syamasundara: All.

Prabhupada: Because Krsna is always engaged with the gopis, so the Gosvamis, they are searching, "Now I have come to Vrndavana. Where you are?" He radhe vraja-devike ca lalite he nanda-sūno kutaḥ. Kutaḥ means "Where you are all?" Just like the same thing: "Krsna, where You are?" [laughter] It is very nice. Vira. This bhajana is recommended by Caitanya Mahaprabhu, to feel separation for Krsna. That is best motive, to feel separation. The more you feel…

So just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu demonstrated, for want of Krsna He was becoming mad, ecstatic. This is Radharani's attitude when Krsna went to Vrndavana, er, Mathura, leaving the gopis in Vrndavana. So Krsna knew that "All the gopis will be overwhelmed on account of My separation," so He sent Uddhava to pacify them. At that time Radharani displayed just like mad. So these songs are following the footsteps of Radharani, feeling the separation of Krsna. I think this morning I have explained one verse,

So this bhajana in separation of Krsna, that is our Gauḍiya Vaisnava philosophy: to feel separation from Krsna. Caitanya Mahaprabhu, govinda-virahena me.

Yugayitam nimesena, "In one moment is appearing to me just like twelve years," yugayitam nimesena caksusa pravrsayitam, "and tears coming down just like torrents of rain." Sūnyayitam jagat sarvam: "The whole world appears to be vacant." Why? Govinda-virahena me: "On account of separation from Govinda." So this bhajana is very perfect bhajana: feeling separation of Krsna, "Krsna, where You are? Krsna, where You are?" This is our bhajana. It is not that "Krsna I have now seen; my business is finished." No. [laughter] We should always feel separation. That is best. That will advance us in Krsna consciousness very nicely.

So it is very nicely sung. So always feel separation of Krsna. That will make our life very successful in understanding Krsna.

George: I think a lot..., a lot of people are gonna hear Krsna's name.

Prabhupada: Eh?

George: A lot of people are gonna hear Krsna's name maybe for the first time, through that song.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. But they will be benefited. You have done nice. You are distributing Krsna's name and feeling separation. Which will have effect to the people. And Krsna name and Krsna is not different. Krsna is absolute. So when we utter Krsna's name, that means Krsna is on my tongue, present. So, ataḥ krs..., uh,

The name cintamani, spiritual. Nama cintamaniḥ krsnas caitanya, full spiritual, conscious. Nama cintamaniḥ krsnas caitanya-rasa-vigrahaḥ: the personality of all mellows. Nitya suddho..., nitya suddha-mukto, abhinnatvan nama-naminoḥ: there is no difference between the name and the person Krsna. There is no difference. Therefore if we chant Krsna's name, especially in vira, in separation, that is the greatest perfection of life.

Purna. As Krsna is purna,

Om… What is that?

That is the Upanisad, Īsa Upanisad.

So Krsna is pūrnam. Krsna's name is also pūrnam, complete. So chanting Krsna's name, we get complete benefit as by meeting Krsna. As by meeting Krsna. This will be realized as we go on thinking of Krsna. So it is very nice attempt.

Malati: [arrival of prasadam] That's Revatinandana Maharaja.

Prabhupada: So Revatinandana Maharaja, what you have done? [laughter]

Revatinandana: You'll have to taste it.

Prabhupada: No, which one? Which preparation you have made?

Syamasundara: All are his.

Prabhupada: All? Everything?

Syamasundara: Everything except the puris.

Prabhupada: The samosa also yours? Ohhh. [light laughter] Very good. Now, begin. Prasada prapti-matrena bhoktavyam. Take. Take. Begin. Yes.

George: On the last version of Krsna-raga, there's one of the devotees from the Los Angeles temple…

Prabhupada: Oh.

George: …came to play kartalas. I forget his name. "Rent-a-kartala." [laughter]

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

[break] …and this can be united again in Krsna consciousness. This artificial division of human society can be united again on the platform of Krsna consciousness. This United Nation program will not be successful. But on this platform of Krsna consciousness there will be unity. This is practical. We have got so many devotees from different parts of the world, but they do not think anymore in terms of bodily conception. No. They have forgotten. Either they are Englishman or American or Canadian or Indian, they have forgotten. They are on the platform of thinking that "We are servant of Krsna." Samaḥ sarvesu bhūtesu. That is platform.

Before coming to the bhakti platform, one has to pass through this platform, samaḥ sarvesu bhūtesu.

This is the platform. So we have to purify our consciousness, material consciousness, that "I am American," "I am Indian," "I am Englishman." No. This is only outward covering. But as spirit soul we are one. So this is called Brahman realization. Aham brahmasmi. Aham American-asmi, Englishman-asmi-no. [laughter] "I am brahmasmi." This is self-realization. This is self-realization, aham brahmasmi: "I am spirit soul." So in that platform he is called purified.

So that is the definition of devotional service: sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam, when one becomes freed from all designations.

Tat parat. Tattva means being connected with Krsna, one becomes purified, nirmalam. And when one is purified, with the purified senses,

This is bhakti. When our senses are purified from the material contamination… Senses, you cannot… The Mayavadi philosopher says that "You stop the activities of senses." That is not possible. It is not possible. As living entity we must have our senses. Without senses we are dead stone. So senses must be there. You cannot avoid it. That Mayavada philosophy, that "Give up your desire," how can I give up desire? That is not possible. So that is not really salvation. Desire you must have, because as living entity there must be desire. So desire should be purified. Now we are desiring for our personal gratification. So when the desire will be utilized for serving Krsna...

That is Radharani's attitude. They are lamenting. The desire is "How to see Krsna? You are gone from us. We do not find that how we can live, because without Your service, our life is useless." This is Krsna consciousness. "Where You are, Krsna? I cannot serve You, then what is my life, this useless life?" Huh? Govinda-virahena me. Sūnyayitam jagat sarvam: "The whole world, universe, is vacant without Your service, without seeing You." This is Krsna consciousness.

So desire must be there. So desire must be utilized for Krsna's satisfaction. Krsnendriya-priti-vancha-tare nama 'prema. Atmendriya-priti-vancha-tare nama 'kama' . So therefore Narada Muni recommends: when our desires are purified, then all the senses, they are also purified. So when our senses are engaged to fulfill the desires of Krsna, hrsikena hrsikesa-sevanam bhaktir ucyate [Cc Madhya 19.170], that is bhakti.

This is the definition of bhakti.

Anyabhilasita. We cannot give up desire. But desire for other things except Krsna's service, that should be given up.

We have got desire in jnana platform, knowledge platform, speculative platform. We have desire on karma platform. Karma platform means desiring to gratify the senses. That is called karma platform. I do something, I get some profit, and that profit is engaged in my sense gratification. This is called karma. So similarly, there is activities in the jnana platform. Jnana platform means that I understand that I am not this body, that I am spirit soul, so my ultimate goal is to merge into the Supreme Spirit Soul. Unified. So that is also not perfect.

The perfect platform is anukūlyena krsnanu-silanam: simply cultivation of Krsna consciousness which is favorable to Krsna. Anukūlyena krsnanu-silanam. That is bhakti, real. Just like Arjuna did. He decided in favor of Krsna. In the beginning he was…, he decided in favor of himself: "Krsna, I am not going to fight. No, no. It is not possible to kill my kinsmen." In this way he gave up the bow and the arrows and sat down. Krsna wanted him to fight, so his decision was not in favor of Krsna. His decision was in favor of his personal satisfaction. Therefore the whole Bhagavad-gita was given lesson. And at last he agreed, "Yes. Now," karisye vacanam tava, "Yes, now I will act in favor of You." So this is Krsna consciousness.

So anyone has got some talent. So in the material world it is being utilized for…, in favor of his personal self. That is material way. So if you want perfection, then you should be acted in favor of Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness. The action is not to be changed, but instead of utilizing the talent in favor of my satisfaction-that is materialism-the same action when it is performed in favor of Krsna's satisfaction, that is pure. This is the difference between material and spiritual.

That is first-class devotion. Therefore Bhagavata conclusion is that,

Vibhagasaḥ, that according to Vedic civilization the divisions are varnasrama-four varnas and four asramas: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra, brahmacari, grhastha, vanaprastha and sannyasa. So varnasrama-vibhagasaḥ. Each, each asrama has got his particular duty. So how one can become successful in acting in his particular occupational duty? That is, Bhagavata gives the decision,

You do not require to change your position. You remain in your position. If you are talented as a musician, you remain as musician, as artist. And whatever you are-as ordinary worker, as medical man, as scientist, as philosopher-whatever you may be, you stay in your position. There is no hard…, varnasrama-vibhagasaḥ. But if you want success in life, then,

Everyone has got his occupational duty, so samsiddhir hari-tosanam: if by your talent and by your work, if you can satisfy Krsna, that is success. That is success. So you may remain in your position. There is no need of changing your position. Remain in. Svanusthita, you remain in your position, but from that position you try to satisfy Krsna. Then everything success. That is samsiddhir hari-tosanam. There are many other verses like that.

Uttamasloka-gunanuvarnanam. Uttamasloka is another name of Krsna. So by your musical talent if you simply glorify Krsna, then your life is successful. This is Krsna consciousness. So there is no change that you have to become a sannyasi, you have to become…, give up this profession or become something else. No. You remain in your position. But with your talent, try to satisfy Krsna. Try to glorify Krsna. Then your talent is successful. It doesn't matter whether you are a musician or a war…, I mean to say, great soldier, warrior. Just like Arjuna.

He was a great soldier, warrior, fighter, and you are a musician. So if somebody thinks, "I am a musician. By singing nicely, Krsna will be more satisfied," no. Krsna will be satisfied, even fighting. Everything for Krsna. So fighting is also not less than; otherwise how Arjuna became a great devotee of Krsna? Krsna certified, bhakto 'si, priyo 'si me: "You are My great devotee." But what did he do? He fought. Fought with who? With his own kinsmen, against his desire, against his will-but he wanted to satisfy Krsna. So anything you do, it doesn't matter, but do it for Krsna. That is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita:

"Give it to Me." So this is the secret of Krsna consciousness. Try to satisfy Krsna from your position, then your life is successful, your profession is successful, everything is successful. And the spiritual platform, there is no such distinction that "Here is a person who is chanting Hare Krsna mantra, and here is a person who is simply singing. Here is a person who is simply fighting." Materially there is difference, but when they are dovetailed in the service of Krsna, they are all one.

Simply it has to be done in favor of Krsna.

So you are all qualified artist, so by your art even in material platform you get so much adoration. Similarly, if you work in spiritual platform with the same art, this material adoration will be finished with the finishing of this body, but spiritual adoration, if you are recognized by Krsna, then that will go with you. That will go with you.

Spiritual asset is never lost. Spirit..., as spirit life is eternal, similarly, whatever you do for spiritual understanding, that is permanent. The Bhagavat says therefore even by sentiment if one takes shelter of Krsna but somehow or other he could not finish it-half way he fell down-still he is not loser. On the other hand, a person without Krsna consciousness doing very nicely his job, but there is no gain. In Krsna consciousness acting, even if you have done ten percent, twenty percent, there is greater success, because next life you will have to begin from twenty-one percent. But without Krsna consciousness, from material consciousness whatever you do cent per cent success, that is finished with your body. Again you have to begin another chapter next life. These are the verdict of the sastras.

So our only request is that whatever you do... Krsna also says, yat karosi. He doesn't say that "You do this." Yat karosi: "Whatever you do, the result you give Me." Kurusva tad mad-arpanam [Bg 9.27]. He is begging, "Give Me." [laughter] Yes, "Give Me." [Hindi] You understand? No? You do not understand English?

Lady guest: English, yes. I don't understand Sanskrit.

Prabhupada: No. I was speaking in English.

Lady guest: Yes, I understand English.

[pause]

Prabhupada: So you can give her our addresses, in Paris, in Amsterdam. She is going there, if possible.

Syamasundara: Touring.

Lady guestt: Yes.

Prabhupada: In Germany also.

Lady guest: In Berlin.

Prabhupada: What is our Berlin address?

Hamsadūta: Kurfurstendamm. You know that street? Kurfurstendamm. It's 153.

Syamasundara: Kurfurstendamm?

Hamsadūta: Yeah, 153.

Syamasundara: You have a place right on the main street? That's amazing. Main street of Berlin.

Prabhupada: Oh. I have seen the picture. There is a broken church.

Hamsadūta: Yeah, on that street.

Prabhupada: Heh?

Hamsadūta: On that street.

Syamasundara: Memorial to Gedachtniskirche.

Prabhupada: That was broken during…?

Hamsadūta: The war.

Prabhupada: War?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada: By the Russians?

Hamsadūta: I don't know.

Prabhupada: Or by the Americans? [laughter]

Syamasundara: Everyone can walk by the church now. It's a memorial. They can walk by the church and say, "Oh, just see: God is dead. Now I can sin."

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: They left a memorial there of the broken church so that they will always remember that "God is dead, and we can go ahead and sin now. The church is broken."

Prabhupada: Oh, they say like that?

Syamasundara: Well they…, I think psychologically at least. [laughter] The church is all broken, bombed out.

Prabhupada: Then they, they do not know that… There it is stated in the Bhagavad-gita,

"I am spread everywhere, and everything is resting on Me, but I am not there." [laughs] The church was resting on Krsna, but when it is broken, He is not there. That he will be…, is foolish person, they do not know. He is not there. This is simultaneously: Krsna is present everywhere and He is not there. That means unto the devotee He is there, and to the nondevotee He is not there. That is Krsna's special power. When the nondevotees wants to break Krsna's statue or Krsna's temple, He is not there. So what he will do? That is a wrong conclusion, "Now Krsna is dead." No. When they were breaking the church or breaking the Deity of Krsna, He was not there. Naham tesu avasthitaḥ.

Syamasundara: He wasn't there in the beginning.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Syamasundara: He wasn't there to begin with.

Prabhupada: No. That is Krsna's inconceivable power.

Syamasundara: Hmm.

Prabhupada: He can remain everywhere, simultaneously, and He can not remain there. Just like Hiranyakasipu and Prahlada. Hiranyakasipu is thinking, "Where is your God? Where is your God?" Asking, challenging. And Prahlada Maharaja saying, "Yes. Here is my God." "Is it in the pillar?" "Yes." So the Hiranyakasipu is saying that "What, what is this pillar, that there is God? What is this nonsense speaking?" But he is seeing there is God. [laughter]

This is God's in…, inconceivable power. So therefore he broke it, pillar, in anger. So…, so He was there for Prahlada, but He was not there for Hiranyakasipu. This is inconceivable. Simultaneously He is there and He is not there. When the demon is trying to break, He is not there, and when the devotee wants to worship, He is there. Simultaneously. So one has to learn this Krsna science, then it will be all right. Otherwise, anyone can say anything. That is all. [laughter]

Jaya-hari: Instead of a church there is now a temple.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Jaya-hari: Instead of a church there is now a temple.

Prabhupada: Temple?

Jaya-hari: Instead of a church being there, there is now a temple there.

Prabhupada: In that church broken?

Jaya-hari: In Berlin.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Jaya-hari: On that same street.

Syamasundara: Not in that church. Down the street.

Jaya-hari: Down the street.

George: I think we must leave now.

Prabhupada: Yes. [laughs] Thank you very much for your coming.

Revatinandana: All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Prabhupada: Whenever you find time, please come. It is your temple. [Hindi]

George: It wasn't my money that I bought it with. [laughter]

Prabhupada: [laughs] Yes. It is Krsna's money, [laughter] but you are the cashier. [laughter] [end]