Room Conversation – January 27, 1977, Bhubaneswar

First one must take shelter of the lotus feet of a spiritual master

Pradyumna: [reads Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Pūrba-vibhaga, 2nd lahari, Texts 74, 75, 76, 77 to Prabhupada.]

Prabhupada: Yes. dasahga. You first accept these ten different methods. So explain that.

Pradyumna: Guru-padasrayaḥ: "First one must take shelter of the lotus feet of a spiritual master." Tasmat krsna-diksadi-siksanam. Tasmat, "from him," krsna-diksadi-siksanam, "one should take krsna-diksa, initiation, and siksa."

Prabhupada: Diksa means divya-jnanam ksayapayati iti diksa. Which explains the divya-jnana, transcendental, that is diksa. Di, divya, diksanam. Diksa. So divya-jnana, transcendental knowledge... If you don't accept spiritual master, how you'll get transcen... You'll be taught here and there, here and there, and waste time. Waste time for the teacher and waste your valuable time. Therefore you have to be guided by an expert spiritual master. Read it.

Pradyumna: Krsna-diksadi-siksanam.

Prabhupada: Siksanam. We have to learn. If you don't learn, how you'll make progress? Then?

Pradyumna: Visrambhena guroḥ seva: "One should serve the guru, visrambha..."

Prabhupada: With great respect, with reverence and respect. Then?

Pradyumna: Sadhu-vartmanuvartanam.

Prabhupada: And you must see that what you are doing, that is according to the principle which all other sadhus and devotees do. They have tilaka, and you say, "I have no tilaka." That is not sadhu-marganu. Sadhu-marganugamanam. They have kanthi. You say, "I can avoid it." That is not sadhu-marganugamanam. So from very beginning, if you disobey, then how you'll make progress? Then?

Pradyumna: Sad-dharma-prccha.

Prabhupada: Sad-dharma-prccha. You have to inquire from guru how to make progress. That is sad-dharma. Asad-dharma and sad-dharma. Sad gamaya, asato ma: "Don't remain in darkness. Make progress." Om tat sat. So sad-dharma-prccha. Then?

Pradyumna: Then bhogadi-tyagaḥ krsnasya hetave.

Prabhupada: Ah. For Krsna you have to give up sense gratification. No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication, no gambling-you have to adopt so many things, tyaga. Anartha-nivrtti. These are anartha, unnecessary things. Do you think if you do not smoke, you die? Unnecessary. What is absolutely necessary, you accept. So bhogadi-tyagaḥ krsnarthe. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg 18.66]: "You have created so many unnecessary things. Give up." So that is not possible immediately, but it is possible. Adau sraddha tataḥ sadhu-sahgaḥ [Cc Madhya 23.15].

The sadhu-sahga means associate with sadhu, guru. If we have sraddha, that "I shall now become Krsna conscious"-this is sraddha: "It is very nice"-then sadhu-sahga [Cc Madhya 22.83]: those who are actually Krsna conscious, you associate with them. Then bhajana-kriya. Then bhajana-kriya... The bhajana, that rise early in the morning, chant Hare Krsna mantra, take your bath and so many things, bhajana-kriya... Then anartha-nivrttiḥ syat. Then all these unwanted things will be finished automatically. And if you do not do these first three, the fourth will not come, fourth stage, anartha... And after anartha-nivrttiḥ syat, then nistha, firm faith. Then anartha..., tato ruciḥ, then taste. Then you get taste. Adau sraddha tataḥ..., anartha-nivrttiḥ syat, tato nistha tato ruciḥ [Cc Madhya 23.14]. Taste. Just like you have got a taste for a food; you cannot give it up: "I want this." Ruci. Athasaktiḥ. Then you become attached. Tato bhavaḥ. Sadhakanam ayam premnaḥ pradurbhave bhavet kramaḥ. This is the subject there.[?]

Pradyumna: Adau sraddha?

Prabhupada: This is the next, I think. Sraddha is the beginning-faith. That faith means firm faith. Just like Kaviraja Gosvami says, sraddha-sabde visvasa kahe sudrḍha niscaya [Cc Madhya 22.62]. That is faith, fixed-up, firm faith. Krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya. Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg 18.66]. When you have got firm faith in this-"Yes! If I surrender to Krsna, all other dharmas will be performed automatically"-then that is called faith. In the beginning, if you have no faith, where is the beginning? Then what is?

Prabhupada: Pradurbhave bhavet kramaḥ. This is everything, description. So everything is there. We should take advantage and become perfect. And this is the chance of becoming perfect, the human form of life. If we miss it-finished. Nivartante mrtyu-samsara... [Bg 9.3]. Again go to the cycle of birth. Where is guarantee I am not going to be a dog? Who can check it? Nobody can. Nature's law is very strong. Karanam guna-sahgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu. Find out this verse, Bhagavad-gita. Karanam guna-sahgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu.

Prabhupada: Why one is taking birth as a brahmana and why one is taking birth as a dog? So karanam guna-sahgo 'sya. There are three qualities: sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. So ūrdhvam gacchanti sattva-sthaḥ [Bg 14.18]. If you become..., associate with sattva-guna, then you are elevated more and more. Madhye tisthanti rajasaḥ. You remain where you are if you associate rajo-guna. And jaghanya-guna-vrtti-stha adho gacchanti tamasaḥ. And if you practice jaghanya, most abominable practices of tamo-guna, then go down. You cannot check it. Daivi hy esa guna-mayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg 7.14].

Prakrteḥ kriyamanani gunaiḥ karmani sarvasaḥ [Bg 3.27]. Gunaiḥ again. Just like if you have infected some disease, cholera disease, you must suffer from cholera. If you have infected disease of smallpox, then you must suffer from smallpox. You cannot check it. Karanam guna-sahgo 'sya. You should be very cautious so that you may not be affected by this infectious disease. Therefore you require sadacara. Always remain neat and clean and always associate with sadhus and Krsna. Then you'll be protected. Sa vai manaḥ krsna-padaravindayor vacamsi vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane [SB 9.4.18].

This is the process. Otherwise karanam guna... As soon as you infect with jaghanya-guna-vrtti-sthaḥ [Bg 14.18], then you'll... There are many place... Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2]. If you want to be liberated, then mahat-seva-you have to associate with mahat, mahatma, not duratma. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimuktes tamo-dvaram yositam sahgi-sahgam. If we become infected with yositam sahgi-sahgam, then no chance. Therefore these centers are being opened: "Come here. Live with Vaisnavas. We are always engaged in Krsna consciousness. Even if you do not like, by their association you'll do it. Then you'll be purified." Anartha-nivrttiḥ syat. "If you are practiced to drink tea and smoke, in our association you'll have to give it up because there is no supply of tea or smoking, meat-eating. Naturally you'll have to give it up." Therefore sadhu-sahga required. Who is sadhu? Bhajate mam ananya-bhak sadhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg 9.30]. Sa mantavyaḥ. He's sadhu. Bhajate mam ananya-bhak. Here you'll find they have no other business, simply Krsna bhajana. So if you associate, you'll also do. Sahgat sanjayate kamaḥ [Bg 2.62]. As we associate, then we develop the mind. And from the very beginning, if you want to become a paramahamsa, above all rules and regulations, that will not help.

Indian man (1): Perhaps his doubt was whether he can do krsna-japa while remaining in grhastha...

Prabhupada: Who says no?

Indian man (1): That was his doubt, I think, isn't it?

Indian man (2): Yes.

Prabhupada: Kirtaniyaḥ sada hariḥ . Do that. Where is the loss? You gain. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu has recommended, kalau nasty eva nasty eva nasty eva . You chant Hare Krsna.

Indian man (1): Because he must be attending office and all that, so...

Prabhupada: Then he'll not require. If he's in office...

Indian man (1): He didn't want to change his clothes.

Prabhupada: No, no. That...

Indian man (1): He can do japa

Prabhupada: No, no. It doesn't matter. If you chant Hare Krsna always, the medicine is there already. Then it will rectify you automatically. Chant Hare Krsna. Where is the loss? It is open for everyone. Harer nama harer nama harer namaiva kevalam, kalau nasty eva. Especially in this age it is very difficult to... But if you take to this harer nama, then gradually ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12]. Everything will be cleansed within your heart and you'll understand. You take to this immediately. [pause] Somebody is giving prasadam?

Satsvarūpa: There's regular distribution.

Prabhupada: Oh, go and...

Satsvarūpa: Yes, everyone is taking

Prabhupada: Go and take prasadam. Prasade sarva-duḥkhanam hanir asyopajayate [Bg 2.65]. Our propaganda is, "Please come here, chant Hare Krsna and take prasadam." That's all. Is that very difficult task?

Indian man (3): There is scripture available here?

Prabhupada: Yes. All the scriptures available. And we are having our members' building and library; you can come and read. We are trying to give you all facility. You take it and be perfect.

Indian man (4): Bhagavad-gita was existing before Sahkaracarya and Buddhadeva?

Prabhupada: So you have no intelligence to understand it? What is that? The same verse. [aside:] Read Bhagavad-gita, Fourth Chapter.

Pradyumna: Fourth Chapter? Sri bhagavan uvaca? Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg 4.1].

Prabhupada: Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam: "I spoke this Bhagavad-gita to the sun-god." So Bhagavad-gita was spoken when Sahkaracarya's father's father was not born. Now understand it. At least forty millions of years ago. At least. So how do you say that before? You read Bhagavad-gita. Everything is there.

Indian man (4): But they do not take it in such a...

Prabhupada: They may be rascal. Why you should become rascal?

Indian man (4): They are rascal.

Prabhupada: There it is written, the document. They may be rascals, but why you become rascal, following the rascals? You are following not Krsna; you are following another rascal. Why? That is your misfortune. Krsna says, imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg 4.1]. He says. You do not take Krsna, you take another rascal. Then how you can be helped? Krsna says, the speaker of Bhagavad-gita, that "I told him," and you do not take it. You take another rascal. Then who will guide you? You remain rascal. What can be done? Sahkaracarya may be seventeen hundred years. Buddha is two hundred and fifty. And Bhagavad-gita, five thousand years ago, this Bhagavad-gita. And before that, purusa, forty millions of years ago. If you don't believe Bhagavad-gita, then don't talk of Bhagavad-gita. You talk of Sahkaracarya, Sahkaracarya's book, this... That is another thing. But if you talk of Bhagavad-gita, it is stated there. People have misguided people in such a way that we are finding very difficult to reform them. But things are there. We have no difficulty. You do not accept-all right, you do your own business; let me do my business. We cannot make any compromise because some rascal has said something. That is not possible. We have to follow Krsna. That's all. This is Krsna conscious. What is the wrong there if you strictly follow Krsna? Mr. Pandiya, what is the wrong there?

Mr. Pandiya: At the present days, sir, people do not go through either Gita or Bhagavata. They read some commentator. Then they get some doubt.

Prabhupada: So if they willfully become misled, then who can check it?

Indian man (5): He should hear it from sadhu, bonafide spiritual master, not from the other places.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Indian man (6): That is the difference. We have not read. We have read other books written by other masters.

Prabhupada: That is our misfortune. Mūḍha. Na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante naradhamaḥ [Bg 7.15]. Krsna is personally speaking, but the mūḍhas and naradhamas, they will not hear to Krsna. They have been described... Those who do not hear from Krsna or His representative, they have been described, duskrtino mūḍhaḥ naradhamaḥ: "Most sinful, rascals, mūḍha, gadha, ass and lowest of the mankind." This is their position. It is not my manufacture. It is Krsna's... Find out this, na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante naradhamaḥ. "No, there are so many educated..." Mayayapahrta-jnanaḥ. Why? Asuram bhavam asritaḥ. These rascals have taken: "Why shall I hear Krsna? Why shall I accept Krsna as God?" Asuri-bhavam. This is the basic principle of defect. Hmm?

Prabhupada: Asuram. This is the defect. "Why shall I hear Krsna? Oh, here is a big politician. He is commenting." Just see. What is this? For the big politicians you sacrifice Krsna? In the beginning you are finished. Then how you'll make progress?

Indian man (2): Politician is wrong.

Prabhupada: They'll prefer, because to hear Krsna is difficult. They'll accept some rascal who will make meaning here and there. That is...

Indian man (7): Can anything be called religion without devotion? Can anything be called religion...

Prabhupada: First of all we must understand what do you mean by religion. First of all let me know. What do you mean by religion? Hmm? Religion means, according to Vedic sastra, dharmam tu saksad bhagavat-pranitam [SB 6.3.19]: "Religion means the law given by God." It is very simple thing. But if you do not know what is God, and if you do not know what law He has given, then where is religion? This is cheating. Just like law means the principle or the regulation given by the state, by the government. That is law. Not that you manufacture some law at your home, as it is going on-yato mata tato patha-you manufacture something, rascal law, and that becomes a religion. That is not religion. Religion means the law given by God, simple law. So if you do not know what is God and if you do not know what law He has given, then where is your religion? There is no religion. Without understanding of God and without understanding of the law as given by God, then there is no religion. That is cheating in the name of religion. Therefore in the Bhagavata, from the very beginning it is said, dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra paramo nirmatsaranam satam vastavam atra vedyam atra [SB 1.1.2]:

"Real religion is to be understood here." Real religion is Bhagavan speaking, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam [Bg 18.66]. This is real religion. If you do not know God, if you do not know how to surrender to God, then where is your religion? If you do not know government, you do not know what is the law of the government, then where is the question of becoming...

[break] ...therefore we are misguided. Very simple thing. Krsna is God, and He's asking, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja. What is that saranam vraja? Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg 18.65]. There is no difficulty. Where is the difficulty? Satatam kirtayanto mam yatantas ca drḍha-vrataḥ [Bg 9.14]. Why don't you follow it? That is religion.

Indian man (7): Sir, what is your idea about people following other religions at the moment?

Prabhupada: Other religion cannot be. Religion is one: God, and what God wants. That is religion. Other religion cannot be. Other law cannot be. Law means which is given by the government. That's all. How there can be other law?

Indian man (7): You see, for example there is now government of India and the government of state. The laws are there.

Prabhupada: That may be. The thing is: the real citizenship is to abide by the law of the government. That is the principle. But even if you say that government of India is different from..., the principle is the same. Government means to rule over. Rule over.

Indian man (7): I may not have expressed myself correctly. What I meant was...

Prabhupada: No, no, government means who is controlling the activities of the citizens. That's all. That is everywhere the same. There may be little difference in the formula, but the principle is the same, that there is a controller and citizens following that controlling rules. Then it is good government. So similarly, the supreme government-there is God, and He has His rules and regulations-if you follow, then you are religious. And God cannot be two. God is one. Otherwise how He is God? If God has competition, then He's not God. [chuckles]

Indian man (2): Yes. [chuckling] Except for Krsna, no other order is told even. What sastra says...

Prabhupada: Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. If you don't accept Krsna as God, that is your business. But Krsna is God. Krsnas tu bhagavan svayam. Īsvaraḥ paramaḥ krsnaḥ [Bs 5.1]. Īsvara, god... There are many gods, but the Supreme God is Krsna.

Indian man (1): The whole problem... We have not read Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Yes. So now read it. No, it is better late than never. You have never read Bhagavad-gita; now read it. The movement is there for this purpose. Now read it.

Indian man (8): The simple version is there also for a layman like us who do not know?

Prabhupada: Even layman. If you offer your obeisances to God, it does it require any...?

Indian man (8): I don't mean, sir. I mean about Bhagavad-gita, the book. It is readable version, I mean? We don't know Sanskrit, for example.

Prabhupada: It is explained in English.

Indian man (8): Ah, that is what I want.

Indian man (1): It has been translated into fifteen languages.

Prabhupada: Yes. These are all Bhagavad-gita, different languages. We have translated into Chinese, Japanese, all European languages-Spanish, Portugal, Dutch, Swedish, Italian. They are accepting it. This is the process to know: chant Hare Krsna. The whole world is chanting this Hare Krsna mantra. We are known as "Hare Krsnas." [aside:] There is another verse also: mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate.

Prabhupada: Just like there is infection, and if you take a vaccine, then it will not infect, the contaminous disease. Similarly, if you take to bhakti-yoga, then you'll not be infected by these three gunas. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhūyaya. You'll remain immune. This bhakti-yoga... Mam ca yo 'vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena. Not vyabhicarena; avyabhicarena. Then you'll remain above the qualities-transcendental. This is bhakti-yoga. Sravanam kirtanam. Satatam kirtayanto mam [Bg 9.14]. If you cannot do anything, chant Hare Krsna twenty-four hours. Bas. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma... You remain on the brahma stage.

[pause-kirtana in background]

Satsvarūpa: Jaya Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: Jaya. Prasadam. Give them prasadam.

Satsvarūpa: Come and take prasadam, everyone.

Prabhupada: Yes. Jaya.

Satsvarūpa: There is prasadam. If everyone can come.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Take little prasadam.]

Indian man (9): We invited. Yesterday we invited.

Prabhupada: Hmm? Who?

Indian man (10): 26th is program.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. Yes.]

Indian man (9): He canceled his program of Puri. He wanted to make tomorrow.

Prabhupada: So...

Satsvarūpa: There is invitation?

Indian man (9): Yes, I have given lots of times.

Satsvarūpa: We have to discuss it, 'cause there are so many already.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Satsvarūpa: There are invitations already. We have to make a program, a schedule.

Prabhupada: How far it is?

Indian man (10): It is not even half kilometer.

Indian man (9): In this village. In this Nayapur village.

Prabhupada: There is road?

Indian man (9): Yes.

Prabhupada: So we can go.

Satsvarūpa: You're already going tomorrow.

Prabhupada: Where?

Satsvarūpa: That man who came, who you were supposed to go on the 26th, and he was changed.

Prabhupada: Oh. The same program?

Indian man (9): Yes. The same program also.

Satsvarūpa: You were recently initiated?

Indian man (9): Yes.

Satsvarūpa: Oh. That's the same program. So that is already fixed with Gaura-Govinda. You spoke with him, Gaura-Govinda Maharaja?

Indian man (9): Yes.

Prabhupada: I take my lunch at half past one. So by that time... [break] [end]