Conversation with George Harrison – July 22, 1973, London

730722R2-LONDON [126:06 Minutes]

You are not demon. You are demigod

Prabhupada: ...in your house?

George Harrison: Yes.

Prabhupada: The first time you are seeing? [laughs]

George: Yes. I've just seen the photographs before. We saw many places which didn't turn out to be the one.

Prabhupada: This village is also nice. I am walking daily, morning.

George: It's perfect.

Prabhupada: Hmm. One priest came.

Syamasundara: Today? A priest? Ah. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Yes. With a girlfriend. [laughs]

Syamasundara: Local priest or...?

Prabhupada: I do not know. They told me that he is a priest.

Syamasundara: He had black, dressed in black?

Prabhupada: No, no. He is ordinary dress. But they told me that he is priest. In Bombay we are going under some tribulation. You have seen this booklet?

George: No.

Syamasundara: They ruined our temple. The city, municipal authorities, knocked our temple down.

George: Who did?

Syamasundara: In Bombay, the city police. So we made a publicity from it. I understand, though, they have rebuilt?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Syamasundara: They have rebuilt it?

Prabhupada: Yes.

George: Why? Why did they do that?

Prabhupada: Oh, that's a long story.

Syamasundara: Long story, about the land. There was some dispute. We purchased it, and the other owners had tried to dispute it. So they were powerful with the police...

George: But they said you..., they didn't want you to have the land or they said you didn't own the land?

Syamasundara: They said we really didn't, even though we paid for it. So they were powerful friends with the police, and they got the police to come and demolish the temple.

George: Really? With the Deities in there?

Syamasundara: They didn't destroy the Deities.

Prabhupada: No, they were going to..., not destroy; they dismantled the Deity room also. In the meantime another message came, "Don't go on further," so they stopped.

George: You'd expect it somewhere like in America, in the West. In India you wouldn't expect that.

Prabhupada: No, this is an extraordinary incidence. So public is in our side. So you have got that marble you told me that...

George: Yes.

Syamasundara: He has said we can get it and use it for a temporary altar.

George: If we speak tomorrow to the people, you can have it the day after probably.

Syamasundara: Oh, that's really good. And we can install the Deities.

George: You keep it anyway, you know. Well, I know once you get the proper Deities you will have something else, but, I mean, then use that somewhere else.

Prabhupada: I think you can fix up that platform permanently. And when your throne comes, you can place on that platform, altar.

[pause]

Sometimes you are chanting Hare Krsna?

George: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Hare Krsna.

George: I seem to keep going in cycles.

Prabhupada: Eh?

George: I go around in circles. Maybe it's something to do with me being, you know, the Pisces. They show one fish going this way and one fish going that way.

Prabhupada: Ah.

George: And periods when I just can't stop chanting, and then other periods where, you know, I turn into a demon again and then forget to...

Prabhupada: [laughs] You are not demon. You are demigod. [laughs] Someway or other you have got attached to Krsna. That will help you.

George: I mean, even at my worst..., at my worst, I can always...

Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam you are reading?

George: Pardon?

Prabhupada: Srimad-Bhagavatam, you are reading ?

George: I'm reading the Gita.

Prabhupada: Bhagavad-gita As It Is.

George: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is... All answers are there.

George: And it goes... Just read it over and over. You know, just one piece over and over.

Prabhupada: Yad yad acarati sresthas tad tad evetaro janaḥ.

[aside:] Just take... Yes. Find out this verse.

Syamasundara: Jaya jagadish?

Prabhupada: Yad. Y-a-d. Yad. Yad.

In this column you will find. In this column. Right.

Syamasundara: Right?

Prabhupada: Yes. Up. Yad yad acarati.

Syamasundara: ...acarati sresthas.

Prabhupada: Ah, that's it.

Syamasundara:

Prabhupada: You can read the diacritic marks?

George: Read what?

Prabhupada: English transliteration?

George: Yes. I try to read this in the roman. But sometimes...

Syamasundara: This mark means long i, and short a and long a.

Prabhupada: Ah. How to read, the instruction is there in the back side, how to read.

Syamasundara: Here, Prabhupada...

George: Sometimes, like when you have the dots beneath the letters...

Prabhupada: No, it is not difficult. If you practice little, the instruction is there.

George: Because when you see Krsna spelled with the dots beneath, I mean that's the only way you can say it.

Prabhupada: That is... The direction is here. You see, direction is here. I think at the back of Bhagavad-gita also the direction is there.

Syamasundara: There is something, how to pronounce the words.

George: Yes. Although the problem is that if you're trying to read... If you're trying to understand...

Prabhupada: No, you can understand my translation.

Syamasundara: But better to listen... For you, probably, to listen to a tape of Prabhupada pronouncing Sanskrit, because you have musical ear.

George: Yes, I can learn anything by ear.

Syamasundara: By hearing it.

Prabhupada: Ah, yes. Your hearing is very sharp. [laughs]

Syamasundara: Anyway, the translation is, "Whatever action is performed by a great man, common men follow in his footsteps. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues."

Prabhupada: So this is your duty now. [laughs] By the grace of Krsna you are one of the great men. Although you are young man, but Krsna has placed you in such a high position that there are many young men who follows you. So that is the instruction.

George: There is some... You know, Syamasundara and I were talking just on the way here, and it's like, when you commit yourself to something, in a way it's like putting your head on the chopping block. Because people, you know, somebody can turn around and chop it off, or it may be you're lucky and, you know, it doesn't get chopped off.

Prabhupada: No, it is not chopping off.

George: I find that this, um... I find that the more commitment that you make, or that I make, even though it's such a little commitment, I mean, relatively speaking it's such a little one, now I'm getting in the area where I find that people are... It provokes, um...

Prabhupada: Thoughts.

George: Well, sometimes it provokes bad reaction.

Prabhupada: Accha?

Syamasundara: Sometimes people become agitated by his words.

Prabhupada: Oh. Mūrkhaya upadeso hi prakopaya na santaye [Hitopadesa]. There is a verse that if one is foolish, if you give him good instruction he becomes angry. Just like the example is given, payaḥ-panam bhujahganam kevalam visa-vardhanam: If you keep a snake and if you give him milk, the result will be that his poison will increase. Payaḥ-panam bhujahganam kevalam visa-vardhanam. So sometimes it happens that, ah, if one is foolish, if you give him good advice he becomes angry. Mūrkhaya upadeso hi prokopaya santaya. But... Has it happened like that? No, I don't think so.

George: I, you know, you can feel, I can feel a little animosity comes from people who, I don't know for what reason, but people...

Syamasundara: Envious maybe.

Prabhupada: Envious.

George: I don't know which is..., in some ways the more committed you are to the thing and the stronger that you are in what you do, then the stronger the animosity becomes.

Prabhupada: Yes, the other side.

George: And I'm not sure if... You know, sometimes I get the feeling that maybe there's one person who it means something real to and ten people who it doesn't mean anything to. And I'm not sure how it..., if it all balances out in the end whether...

Syamasundara: Well, that one person, though, if you reach one person he is worth all of them.

George: But say you don't reach any people, and then you have a choice of reaching people and you only reach one, but in..., by reaching that one you have twenty people who are annoyed. You know, how do you...?

Prabhupada: Yes, sometimes it happens.

Syamasundara: His question is that if you preach and you see many men, you meet many men, you may make... If you meet ten men you may make nine of them enemies, and only one will become helped by your preaching. So how is that...

George: But if you don't say anything, then maybe all the ten of them are quite friendly.

Syamasundara: Is that... How is that beneficial?

Prabhupada: Yes. The preaching is different, you see. When one preaches he must tell the truth. Just like Lord Jesus Christ. The people did not like his preaching, but he did not stop his preaching. That is another point. You see? So in the preaching propaganda there is possibility of creating animosity. Yes. There is possible. Just see that unnecessarily my Godbrothers are troubling.

Syamasundara: This temple demolishing?

Prabhupada: Yes, you see. Innocent we are. We are simply worshiping. We have given money. Everything is all right. But they are creating some unwanted... Especially in God consciousness such things are possible, you see? We have to pay sometimes. Even Prahlada Maharaja, he was a five-years-old boy, and his only fault was that he is Krsna conscious. His father became enemy, what to speak of others. Because his father did not like God consciousness, so he became enemy of his child although the child was only five years old. So there is possibility of such things. Yes.

Syamasundara: I was suggesting that those who take the biggest risk for Krsna, that even though they may stand the risk of losing everything, Krsna always comes to help and protect.

Prabhupada: That is the history of everyone. Just like the Panḍavas: They were bereft of their kingdom, bereft of their wife, they were insulted. So many things. Still, at last they come out victorious, Arjuna and Yudhisthira and the other party. That is the Kuruksetra war. That is a fact. Krsna protects His devotee. That verse is there: kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktaḥ pranasyati [Bg 9.31]. So your this record album, I Am in the Material World?

George: Living in the Material World.

Prabhupada: I heard that has been appreciated by so many people. Even the one teacher was telling me.

Syamasundara: Hmm. One teacher came to visit Prabhupada. He said he played your record in his classroom. He teaches religious education. And they were astounded that the children, one of them began to pray. He found one boy in a room alone playing the record and praying on the floor. It has had great effect.

George: There's one song in particular which is directly the result of the conversation we had, when you came to Henley.

Prabhupada: Yes, in your house. Yes.

George: About fame and fortune and...

Prabhupada: So how the record is now received there?

George: Yes. It's...

Prabhupada: People are seeking after something about spiritual enlighten. That's a fact. Especially in the Western world. That is a fact. We have to administer very cautiously and carefully. Then it will be taken. So one thing is that when you speak of the strictures, four principles...

Syamasundara: Restrictions.

Prabhupada: Restriction. That..., at that point they become angry.

Syamasundara: They become angry.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because everyone is addicted to these things. I told you the story, Lord Zetland. Lord Zetland, the Marquis of Zetland. His was Lord Ronaldshay. Do you know him?

George: I don't know him.

Prabhupada: Oh, he is Scottish man. He was governor of Bengal when we were children. Not children; young men. He was... Because I was student in the Scottish Churches College, so our principal, Mr. Watt, he invited him to visit. So he was a big philosopher. He liked Indian culture and philosophy. So I was at that time second year class. So when he came to our class he first of all, "How many of you, you have taken philosophy?"

So our principal, Mr. Watt, informed that this is second year class, so philosophy begins from the third year. So the preliminary philosophy, logic, they might have taken some of them. So, "All right, how many have taken logic?" So I was also one of them. So he was very nice gentleman. So one of my Godbrother came here in 1935. What is your birth date?

George: Mine? '43.

Prabhupada: Forty-three. You were not born at that time, 1935. So he met Lord, that Lord Ronaldshay. Is there any place in Scotland, Ronaldshay?

George: How is that spelled?

Prabhupada: R-o-n-a-l-d-s-a-y. Ronaldshay. He was Lord Ronaldshay, Marquis of Zetland. Is Zetland is any place?

Syamasundara: Zetland?

Prabhupada: Yes?

Syamasundara: I think so.

Prabhupada: Anyway, so he asked my that Godbrother, his name was Bannerjee, "Mr. Bannerjee, can you make me a brahmana?" So he inquired, this Lord Zetland. So he replied, "Yes, why not? You have to give up these four restricted principle." So when he heard, he said, "Oh, it is impossible. It is impossible. This is our life."

So when we speak to these principles sometimes people become angry. Yes. The same thing, mūrkhaya upadeso hi prakopaya na santaye. That risk is there. But actually that is the fact. God consciousness can be awakened proportionately, as proportionately one is pure. Pure. Purified. Because Krsna is the purest.

That is stated in... "You are the param brahma, the purest, uncontaminated." So unless one becomes uncontaminated of this material modes, it is difficult to understand what is God. Therefore in our institution we begin with these four restriction: no illicit sex, no intoxication, no meat-eating, no gambling. So those who are not serious about, they take it, "Oh, what is this?" Just like Rayarama, he remarked that I am restricting...

Syamasundara: "Natural instincts."

Prabhupada: "Natural [laughs] instincts," yes. Especially in the Western countries. I was thinking in the beginning that as soon as I shall propose these things, these people will say, "Please go home. Don't preach." [laughs] But by Krsna's grace... I do not know how these young boys and girls, they agreed to my proposal. I am also astonished, because even Zetland says, "It is impossible." I was not very much hopeful when I first came in your country. It was in Boston, the Commonwealth Dock. So I was thinking on the boat... I came on boat.

George: What year was that?

Prabhupada: It was 1965, September. So I was thinking-I think it is published in our magazine, yes-that as soon as I propose this thing, people will refuse to hear me. But Krsna's grace, these selected boys, they agreed. So their cooperation has helped me.

Syamasundara: We agreed because we saw someone who was perfect in teaching and in setting example in every way. So just by seeing you we gave up. We thought, "Well, if we do this, then we can learn something from this man. Otherwise we cannot learn." So we gave up.

Prabhupada: So that is the only point, people become sometimes angry. Otherwise we have nothing to make enemy. We are simply teaching "Love God."

George: If you think since '65, just less than eight years. And you came with five dollars or ten dollars, and now it's so big, the organization.

Prabhupada: Yes.

George: Think of another five years, the potential. Then that is what people will have to, you know... Just the growth and the success is... You don't need any other reason for people to, you know, have the jealousy or...

Prabhupada: Yes, people receiving it nicely. Even Africa. And especially Europe and America, the younger generation, they are liking.

Syamasundara: Just by your words. Just the words that you gave us, those words have created all this institution.

Prabhupada: That is not my word; that is Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's word.

[aside:] So you can open this windows. Shall I open?

George: No, no, I... I'm not too hot.

Prabhupada: I see.

Syamasundara: Shall I read this verse?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Syamasundara: "He quickly becomes righteous and attains lasting peace. O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that my devotee never perishes."

Prabhupada: Ah, "declare boldly." Yes, Krsna says. "Declare boldly to the world that My devotees will never perish." Yes.

Syamasundara: He is protecting us.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Tesam aham samuddharta mrtyu-samsara-sagarat [Bg 12.7]. This is Krsna's special mercy. So we are teaching exactly to save the human society, you see. Because the human life is specially meant for, by nature's gift, that in this life you realize God. In other life, cats and dog, it is not possible. Now you have got nice human body, developed consciousness. And there are literatures, instruction. You just take advantage of them and make your life successful. Successful means that you save yourself from the repeated birth and death. This is success.

So long we will be materialistic or attached to material enjoyment, we have to accept a body, material body. Not necessarily human body. It may be, according to karma, higher grade life, demigod's life in higher planet, or in lower grade. Only it is mentioned in the Bhagavad-gita, dehantara-prapti [Bg 2.13]. In this... You have to change this body, as you have changed already from childhood to babyhood, babyhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood. So, now it is old age body.

So when this body will be finished I will have to accept another body. That is a fact. But unfortunately there is no education on this point. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20]. After destruction of this body the spirit soul is not destroyed. Vasamsi jirnani [Bg 2.22]. Just like you left your coat. That means you are not dead. Your coat is set aside. Similarly, this body may be destroyed. It will be destroyed, because it is material. And that is Christian religion also accepted, resurrection.

Syamasundara: Resurrection.

Prabhupada: So the soul transmigrates to another body. Now this transmigration can be done in so many ways, either in this material world or in the spiritual world. In the material world also there are high-grade life. Just like here in this planet also there are so many different grades of life, similarly different planets. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita. You can find out,

George: The birds in the sky and the fish in the water and the worms in the soil, and man on the earth...

Prabhupada: Yes, where is Panḍita Mahasaya? Yanti deva-vrata devan. Y-a-n-t-i.

Syamasundara: Oh, y-a.

Prabhupada: Yanti. Actually the pronunciation is yanti, yanti. Antastha...

Syamasundara: Yanti deva.

Prabhupada: Ah. Someway or other this Bhagavad-gita should be preached all over for this education of the human society.

Syamasundara: Verse?

Prabhupada: Ah? Yes.

Syamasundara: "Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods. Those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings. Those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors, and those who worship Me will live with Me."

Prabhupada: "Live with Me." So I will have to transmigrate. So I can transmigrate to the higher planetary systems. I can transmigrate amongst the ghost and evil spirit. Or I can transmigrate ordinary life. Or I can transmigrate to the kingdom of God. Everything is open.

George: It's a good deal. It's a good, fair deal.

Prabhupada: Ah. So why I shall not transmigrate to..., back to home, back to Godhead? Why shall I go to the... This is the policy. If I have to endeavor in this life for my next life, why not endeavor for next life go back to Krsna and live with Him eternally, blissfully? Eh? If I have to work for some next life, then why not work... And it is so easy in this age. Kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sahgaḥ paramvrajet [SB 12.3.51]. Simply by chanting this Hare Krsna mantra he becomes liberated from all contamination and goes back to home, back to Godhead. Simply by... This is a special advantage of this age. Because people are generally fallen. So Krsna has given a special concession.

Caitanya Mahaprabhu introduced that you simply chant the holy name of Krsna, you will be liberated. Simply… Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare / Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. There is no expenditure. Suppose you are going on your car and if you chant, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna," what is your loss? But if there is gain, why not take it? [laughs] This is our proposal.

George: There is one sort of problem in a way, that I found when chanting all the time, and that was that I start being able to relate less and less to all the people I know. I mean then it's..., there's only times when I see people like Syamasundara or just a few people, then, that's okay, but most of the other people...

You know, I suddenly found myself on such a different level that it's hard to relate, and then it's like it feels as though it's a point where I have a decision of either slowing down and pulling back towards those people in order to try and pull them with me, or maybe if, because I'm not ready to go, or just cutting the thing off and just going completely. You know what I mean? Just in day-to-day things. The more and more, the build-up...

Prabhupada: Material management.

George: But the build-up of the mantra and the effect is so subtle in a way that there's that point where I just can't relate any more to anybody. Maybe you don't have that experience.

Syamasundara: He says that when he chants he becomes spiritualized, so that it's difficult to relate with his business associates, colleagues.

George: But not even that; to my friends, even to my wife. I mean to anybody. You know, it's...

Syamasundara: And it's sometimes difficult to see...

Prabhupada: But your wife is very favorable. She is nice girl.

George: Yes, she's an angel. You know, in a way she's okay.

Prabhupada: If wife is favorable, then that is a great advantage.

George: But you see what happens is, this is also what Terry was saying yesterday, is that... You know, like if I'm not into it too deeply, then I'll come down to begin a day and I'll be quite, say, "Do this," "Okay," and off we go to do... But the days, the periods when I'm so deeply into that, chanting all the time, then when I finish chanting, I come down, I'm like Ravana. [Prabhupada laughs]

You know, I come down and I'm not smiling, and I'm not particularly happy because I'm saying, "Do that! Get that! Why is this!" You know? It's.. There's like there is more urgency involved. The realization that everybody is wasting their time and everybody is doing mundane things which are..., and you know, just having a little bit of mundane fun.

Syamasundara: But when you were chanting you wrote the song, and it's proven by people's purchasing all those songs that they want to hear that.

George: Hmm. But the problem is this: where to find a balance. Because obviously I know where I benefit by doing that. But I'm benefiting so much that suddenly I find I'm out on a limb and it's hard to be able to pull those people with you. You know, there's a point where suddenly I'm not going to be... I'm not going to know them any more.

Syamasundara: [laughs] Is it that... It's difficult; when he becomes spiritualized by chanting he feels it's a dangerous position in a way, because then he will be cut off from his audience, from people who will..., the ordinary people. He's afraid they will not understand him; he will not be able to take them with him to that point. So he has to find a balance.

Prabhupada: Yes, you keep balance. You keep balance. Don't spoil your position. Keep your position, but... Just like external-internal. Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, yes, when he was Raghunatha dasa at home, he became attracted with Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So immediately he wanted to leave home and go with Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Caitanya Mahaprabhu advised, "No, no, don't do it hastily. It is not required. You externally, you remain as you are. You are a rich man's son, you have got management, zamindary." And he was good manager. "Krsna will help you."

So bahye loka-vyavahara. Antare nistha kara, bahye loka-vyavahara. Within you just keep yourself always Krsna conscious. Outside you just deal just like ordinary man. This is the tactics. Because your talent is not ordinary talent. So you are getting money. So why should you refuse to get it? No. Money can be utilized for Krsna. Our policy is not that, that you don't touch money. Why not? For Krsna's sake you have to do so many things. So money is called laksmi. When I heard that this village is Letchmore... Laksmi-more. [laughs] More laksmi. So Laksmi is, according to Vedic idea, Laksmi-Narayana. You understand Narayana?

George: Laksmi?

Prabhupada: Laksmi. Laksmi means fortune, goddess of fortune. And Narayana means the Supreme Lord. So we worship Narayana.

George: Narayana.

Prabhupada: Narayana. Krsna's another feature, Narayana, Visnu. Krsna is the original Supreme Lord, and He has expansion, many expansions. We are also expansions, living entities. Eko bahu-syama. He has expanded. Just like father expands by many sons, similarly, God has expanded in many parts and parcels. Visnu form is the original form. Svamsa. It is called svamsa, personal expansion. Visnu. And we living entities, we are vibhinnamsa. Exactly our position is not on the God's platform; on the servants', God's servants' platform.

George: Did you say Visnu is the first?

Prabhupada: Krsna.

George: The first expansion?

Prabhupada: No, first expansion is Balarama, Baladeva. From Baladeva there are four expansions. There is Vasudeva, Sahkarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha. Then from Sahkarsana, next expansion is Narayana, four-handed. That is Visnu form.

George: We've just been making some music in California, and one of the songs which, ah, it's Ravi Shankar's music. But one of the songs is with Vedic, based on the Vedic thing is Jaya Jagadisa Hare, which is the ten avataras of Visnu.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Kesava dhrta mina sarira jaya jagadisa hare.

George: Beautiful song. But I was wondering during that song, finding out the ten incarnations as the turtle and the midget and all the different...

Prabhupada: That is Jayadeva's.

George: I was trying to figure why there was no..., never anything spoken about Krsna.

Prabhupada: Ah. Krsna is not incarnation.

George: Yes.

Prabhupada: Krsna is not incarnation. Krsna is the origin of all incarnations. He is called... Incarnations are called avatara.

George: Avatara.

Prabhupada: Yes. And Krsna is avatari. Avatari means...

George: Is it with an "i"? Is that what...

Prabhupada: "From whom all avataras come."

George: Avatara with an "i" on the end. Is that avatari or with an "e"?

Prabhupada: Avatary, yes, "y". Avatary.

George: So does it have a "y" on the end?

Prabhupada: Yes, avatary.

George: Because there's so many times where they say in books...

Prabhupada: Avatara of, and He is avatary. This is the difference. Therefore in that song he remarked, kesava dhrta mina sarira jaya jagadisa hare [Pralaya Payodhi Jale verse 1, from Gita-govinda]. It is praying to Krsna. Kesava is the name of Krsna. "Kesava, You have appeared, You have incarnated as the mina-sarira," this varaha-sarira, nrsimha-sarira. Kesava dhrta-narahari-rūpa jaya jagadisa hare. Kesava dhrta rama-sarira jaya jagadisa. Kesava dhrta raghu-vira rūpa jaya jagadisa. Like that.

George: Which... Whereabouts would the words appear? Because...

Prabhupada: It is composed by one Vaisnava poet

George: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Jayadeva Gosvami.

George: Yeah. But is there any place where those words have been printed? Where I could see what the words...

Prabhupada: Oh, we can give you.

George: Do you have it in any of...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. You can... Can you... Where is Satsvarūpa? Call him. I can give you immediately. Ask him give it immediate. That is not difficult. Kesava... Pralaya-payodhi-jale dhrtavan asi vedam.

George: Next time I come I'll bring these songs for you to hear.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

George: Really nice. We did...

Prabhupada: Who has sung? Ravi Shankar?

George: No, on this one it was actually made a few years ago, and we just took... The tape was never released.

Prabhupada: Sung by whom?

George: It's sung by... He's the son of the priest from the temple in... Oh, what's the place, just south of Bombay, on the beach? Goa. Goa.

Prabhupada: Oh.

George: Some priest in the temple, that's his son. And the other song is sung by Lakshmi Shankar.

Prabhupada: Lakshmi Shankar?

George: Lakshmi Shankar. I think she..., you met once?

Prabhupada: Lakshmi Shankar?

George: She is... Remember when you met Ravi Shankar?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes.

George: Lakshmi is Ravi's elder brother... He's got another elder brother, Rajendra Shankar; it's his wife. And she sings the songs.

Prabhupada: Oh. [to Pradyumna] Can you give in typewriting with diacritic marks this avataras, dasa avatara?

Pradyumna: We have already...

Prabhupada: Pralaya pay... You have got it?

Pradyumna: I've got it here. I'll write it out.

Prabhupada: It is printed?

Pradyumna: Yes.

Syamasundara: What is that?

Prabhupada: No, no, that is Bengali.

Pradyumna: Yes, but I can transliterate it and write it out.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then, so...

George: Could you... Do you remember the record you had on in India that was Krsna. Did Prabhupada hear that?

Syamasundara: I don't think so.

George: Because that was Lakshmi singing.

Syamasundara: Oh. Is it a sister-in-law of Ravi Shankar?

George: Yes.

Prabhupada: Sister-in-law?

George: She sings really nice. But there's... On the record we've just been making...

Prabhupada: The Akash-Ganga, just below our apartment, she was Ravi Shankar's wife.

George: No, no, no.

Syamasundara: Former wife.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

George: She is not... She is a very strange person, the one who lived... But the songs is..., there's Jaya Jagadisa Hare, then three more songs all about Krsna. One is called, "I am Missing You, Krsna. Where Are You?" which Ravi wrote... The first time he's written a song for the English language.

Prabhupada: If Ravi Shankar is interested, we can give so many nice songs about Krsna.

George: Well, he, you know... Yes, I'm sure. But he's... All the time... He has songs, two written in Bengali, this 'Supani Me' and 'Kahe Kaliwa'.

Prabhupada: Oh, that is Hindi song.

George: Hindi.

Prabhupada: There is one song by Narottama dasa Thakura,

I think we have... I sung. Have you got that record?

Syamasundara: Maybe I can find it.

Prabhupada: So if he is interested in singing about Krsna, oh, he can do it.

George: There's this one song...

Prabhupada: And then join together, you and he...

George: We've been doing that.

Syamasundara: They've been doing that...

Prabhupada: I can help you.

George: ...for some time now. But there's one, this one song which is so simple, and the melody and the words are so simple, but it's beautiful.

Prabhupada: This kesava dhrta jagadisa?

George: No, this other one. It's in English. "I am Missing You." It only has three lines: "I am Missing You, Krsna, Where Are You?"

Prabhupada: That is your song?

George: No, it's Ravi Shankar. "I am missing You, Krsna. Where are You? I am missing You, Krsna. Where are You? Though I can't see You, I hear Your flute all the while." Repeats. "Please, come wipe my tears and make me smile." But it's so sweet, I'm sure it's going to be very, very popular song.

Prabhupada: It is nice song.

Syamasundara: They are releasing it as a popular recording. George produced it and Ravi wrote it and his sister-in-law sings it.

Prabhupada: Oh, that woman came, that is his sister-in-law?

Syamasundara: Lakshmi Shankar.

Prabhupada: His elder brother is Uday Shankar. He is very good dancer.

George: He's a great dancer, yes.

Prabhupada: He, I think he is of our age. He is old man.

George: Yes. He's had... You know, he had a lot of strokes and brain hemorrhage and things all at the same time. But he's so strong that he just keeps going.

Prabhupada: [laughs] Still.

Srutakirti: I can't find that. I did find Jaya Jagadisa Hare.

Prabhupada: Oh. Yes, yes.

Syamasundara: It's Prabhupada singing Jaya Jagadisa Hare. I don't know how it sounds.

Pradyumna: It's pretty good. [break]

Prabhupada: This song is very famous song, Jaya Jagadisa. Yes.

Syamasundara: Here's that verse in Bhagavad-gita where Krsna says that "Neither the hosts of demigods nor the great sages know My origin. For in every respect I am the source of the demigods."

Prabhupada: Yes.

George: That's great.

[devotee plays tape of Srila Prabhupada singing Jaya Jagadisa Hare for some Minutes]

Prabhupada: This is nice speaker.

Mukunda: Would you prefer it on top? [tape turned off]

George: Yes, we have a different sort of tune. So, I just got a hint of that thing, that the temple in L.A...

Prabhupada: What is that? Puri?

Malati: I think we are giving you... We are spoiling you little tonight.

George: Can I take this one? I've never seen... We buy the Indian version.

Prabhupada: Yes, take it. Now take prasadam. Prasadam is ready.

George: There'll be more temples... In the end, there'll be more temples than hotels.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. [laughs] Jaya. First when I entered this room, I said, "All glories to George Harrison." [laughs] Yes. You have given us this shelter, and Krsna will give you shelter at His lotus feet. We shall pray always like that. Yes.

George: Well, maybe in the future this will...

Prabhupada: Why future? In this life.

George: No, I mean in the future in this life, the future. Or maybe...

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. No, you will be... Krsna is favoring you. You are sincere, and Krsna has already favored you. So just intelligently utilize your favorable condition. Then everything will go on right.

George: Well, everything feels so exciting at the moment, what's happening. The future is just going to be overwhelming.

Prabhupada: Now, take first of all prasadam.

Revatinandana: This is sour cream. I hear you like with your samosa some sour cream.

Syamasundara: Revatinandana fixed you a feast.

Prabhupada: You take. You take.

Syamasundara: They are bringing for us.

Revatinandana: They're bringing more.

Prabhupada: They are bringing.

Syamasundara: They're bringing some more.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Nice. [taking prasadam]

Revatinandana: Is it all right? Really? He just taught me yesterday how to perfect these, and I tried to do it.

George: Samosa? [taking prasadam] Mukunda, when the next person comes, do you think he'd send some tissues...

Prabhupada: We have prepared a cookbook, Hare Krsna. Have you seen it?

George: I just got one. It's the... Is that the same thing? It's like a photostat.

Syamasundara: Oh, no. This is a... There's two cookbooks.

Revatinandana: I just wrote one also. [laughs] He's got one of those.

Syamasundara: He's got one of those. Printed up in New York.

Prabhupada: Krsna is enjoying with His friends.

George: Yeah? So it's full instructions on how I can...

Syamasundara: Yes.

George: Great. Fantastic.

Srutakirti: And it tells you where to buy it, I mean, the whole works. Pictures. How to offer it. Everything's there.

[taking prasadam]

Prabhupada: Take one more samosa. Eh? You have got?

George: Yes, there's so much here. Next year you'll be able to have the food from..., grown in the garden. You won't even have to go to...

Prabhupada: Where?

Srutakirti: From our garden here, he says we'll be able to grow.

Syamasundara: Next year we will have.

Prabhupada: You have spoken about these doll stalls?

Syamasundara: Also we're going to make up displays like this of, you know, of dolls, china dolls of Krsna and His friends and all their pastimes, put them in display cases around on the grounds, so people, when they walk around, they won't just see trees; they'll see Krsna doing something.

George: Another way of doing that, it's fantastic.

Prabhupada: Vegetable is very nice. Vegetable.

Revatinandana: You made it like this in Los Angeles once about four years ago, and I remembered a little bit how to make it.

George: You know, the idea in Europe in the Catholic countries, if you go in Spain and Portugal, you drive along and they have like a little wooden frame like this and then with tiles, and all it is is tiles, but the tiles show like saints and different things. Did you see those tiles I had made with Krsna, with the mantra?

Syamasundara: Yes.

George: So, things like that. And here you can get very simple, you know, and just have them glazed and put the tiles together.

Syamasundara: Hmm. Yes. That's also a good idea. George suggested also that we print up these pictures like this in the postcards.

George: And birthday cards, Christmas cards, all sort of cards.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Very good idea.

Syamasundara: Because people are tired of seeing these old postcards of...

George: Now there's lots of new postcards, but this... You know, it's much better now, but there's still no Krsna postcards.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Malati: Papadams?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Malati: Poppers?

Prabhupada: Oh, popper. That's nice.

Malati: Unfortunately we have no coal, so they are cooked in the ghee.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Malati: We did it in ghee because there was no coal.

George: This is great. Khicuri? Khicuri?

Prabhupada: What is that khicuri? No, not khicuri. This is very good.

George: It's like potatoes and dal?

Prabhupada: No, cauliflower.

Revatinandana: Potatoes and cauliflower.

Prabhupada: Cauliflower, yes.

George: Cauliflower. It's very nice.

Prabhupada: Yes, it's very nice. He is good cook.

Revatinandana: That's because I like to eat too much. I am so attached to eating prasadam.

Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness so nice. Eat nicely, sing nicely, dance nicely, and go to Krsna. I was thinking, before starting this movement, that people they are starting so many dry movement. And my movement is so nice-chanting, dancing and eating. Why it will not be accepted?

Syamasundara: It seems that nowadays, especially young people, they are looking in music to listen, to find some instruction in the music they hear on the radio. They get some instruction from the music.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: Usually from the music they get the instruction to go to hell.

George: Yeah. Well, I think that's only the thing, you know, Nada, Nada Brahma, the sound. Just the idea of a thing. Musically, there's just the sound in music. Well, it's transcendental. It bypasses your intellect, and you can feel, even if you don't understand.

Syamasundara: That's good.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Syamasundara: We were just talking about sound vibration, how it bypasses the intellect and is actually appreciated by the spirit.

Prabhupada: So Mukunda, why you are sitting without eating? You come here.

Mukunda: No, I have already eaten.

Prabhupada: Oh. You can come.

Malati: How can you [indistinct]?

Syamasundara: Once you said that the origin of everything is sound vibration.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Syamasundara: How is that...

Prabhupada: Sky. Sky is first creation. So the symptom of sky is sound. Just like [hits something], this is beating the sky and the sound is produced.

Syamasundara: Oh, because the sound travels through sky?

Prabhupada: Yes. Sound is... There is sky. The proof is the sound.

Syamasundara: But the sound was before the sky?

Prabhupada: No. After the sky.

Syamasundara: After the sky.

Prabhupada: And from sound, air is produced. And from air, electricity, fire.

Syamasundara: Fire.

Prabhupada: Hmm. And from fire, water. And from water, earth. This is this creation of five elements. In physics they teach sound and light. Is it not?

Revatinandana: Also gravitation, they teach about that.

Prabhupada: Malati, if you give more sihgara to George.

Malati: What?

Prabhupada: Sihgara.

Malati: Revatinandana Maharaja has prepared.

Syamasundara: No, bring more.

Malati: Oh, bring more.

George: Really, I've got such a lot. Thank you.

Prabhupada: You are young man. You can eat.

George: This is great, this dish. Did you make this one?

Revatinandana: Can you take a little more of it?

George: Ah, no, let me... I'd rather finish it all first. But what do you call that?

Revatinandana: You might not see it. Taste that purple preparation and see if you like that, the cherry chutney.

Prabhupada: Yes, you will get appetite. Chutney is meant...

George: Actually, I was saving that for pudding later. I eat all the savory things, and then finish off with the sweet.

Syamasundara: It increases the appetite. This is not sweet. It's a chutney.

Revatinandana: It's a pretty sweet chutney. It's not too hot chutney. It's cherries.

George: It tastes like good plum jam. But is this just your own creation? This...

Revatinandana: No, Prabhupada himself cooked that once in Los Angeles, and I learned at that time. That was four years ago.

George: Does it have a name? What would you call this one?

Prabhupada: Which one?

Syamasundara: Potatoes and cauliflower?

George: Potatoes and cauliflower.

Revatinandana: It's in the cookbook that I wrote.

Prabhupada: This is called, in Bengal it is called kaliya.

George: Kaliya.

Revatinandana: Just like the same name as the serpent?

Prabhupada: No, it is Muhammadan name. Actually, this preparation the Muhammadans make with meat. What is that? No, not meat. [laughter] It has come out very nice, tasteful.

George: Did you give David Wynne some prasadam?

Syamasundara: Yeah.

George: Did he like it?

Syamasundara: Oh, yeah.

George: That's... I mean, in the end that's what will catch everybody. Even if that's all that gets them is the food. It's going to get them.

Syamasundara: In Portobello Road we have a stall, you know one of those street stalls...

Prabhupada: Bring one day your wife also.

Syamasundara: We distribute prasadam all day long, free.

Prabhupada: One day bring your wife. She is very nice girl.

George: Okay, next time I come.

Prabhupada: Yes.

George: Also, Donovan wants to come.

Syamasundara: Oh, that's nice.

Prabhupada: Who is it?

George: But I wanted to come once, you know, first on my own.

Syamasundara: A friend of George's.

Revatinandana: He's another singer from... Quite popular.

Syamasundara: He's reading Bhagavad-gita, isn't he?

George: I gave it him for Christmas.

Syamasundara: Oh, yeah? He was asking questions about impersonalism and personalism.

Prabhupada: Who was that?

Syamasundara: This friend of George's.

Prabhupada: Oh.

George: He's a good person.

Prabhupada: Impersonalism and personalism, it is very simple thing. Just like the sun and the sunshine, that's all. Sunshine is impersonal and the sun is personal. Similarly, impersonal is Krsna's energy, manifestation of Krsna's energy. Origin of impersonal expansion is Krsna. Yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anḍa-koti, in the Brahma-samhita.

It is statement. So why you are sitting? Go on.

Revatinandana: Because you are talking.

Prabhupada: Everything is first-class made.

Syamasundara: Hmm. The best feast we've had.

Prabhupada: So what more you want? Why don't you take... Give him that koliya, koliya.

George: If I finish all of this, then maybe.

Revatinandana: A wet vegetable.

George: I've still... Otherwise I'll never get around to the...

Syamasundara: We can pack some up for Terry. He likes prasadam.

George: Kumar wants to come as well.

Syamasundara: Who?

George: Kumar. He's my Indian...

Syamasundara: He's Ravi's brother, is he?

George: Hmm. He went to the one in Watseka, and he just loved it. As soon as he went and sat in the temple and saw the Deities...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Syamasundara: It's very nice. It's the only real place outside of India, these temples of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Oh, who has made this raita? Is it raita?

Revatinandana: Oh, Malati. Malati.

Prabhupada: It is very nice. You have tasted that? Yes.

George: With the cucumber?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

George: Yogurt?

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Syamasundara: [to George] I think she learned that from your wife, though, didn't she?

Prabhupada: No, it is Indian preparation.

George: Yeah, but we learned it from someone and then told Malati.

Syamasundara: George's wife instructed Malati how to make it.

Prabhupada: She can also cook?

Syamasundara: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: Oh. Very nice.

Malati: You'll take more?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Why not? Give him.

George: Little.

Revatinandana: Do you want to take a little more, Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: No, no, I have got.

Malati: Take a little cauliflower.

Prabhupada: Give him little juice.

Syamasundara: In fact, after David... Prabhupada told us how to wash our hands after prasadam, last time David was here. He instructed us to all go wash our hands and our plates in the bathroom. David was back here washing his plate, and he said, "Do I have to go now, or can I stay a little while longer?" It was about ten o'clock. I said, "Stay a little while longer." "Oh, boy." He loved it. He stayed for hours. At midnight he finally left. He's going to do a portrait of Prabhupada, a sculpture.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Syamasundara: I was telling George about David...

George: Well that will be fantastic, because the time he will require to do the head...

Prabhupada: Oh, that David is very good boy.

George: Yes. But the time he'll require to do that, by the end of it he will have learned so much that he will be right there.

Syamasundara: He just did the Queen and the others, and if he does Prabhupada, that would be... He said that you had a remarkable head.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Syamasundara: David, the sculptor.

Prabhupada: He said like that? [laughs]

Syamasundara: Yes, he said your head was very remarkable. [laughs] He was studying your head while he was talking.

Prabhupada: My maternal uncle, my mother's cousin's brother, [indistinct], he was a very rich man. So when I used to go, he used to say to my father, "Oh, this boy will be very..." [laughs] Simply by...

Syamasundara: By the shape of your head?

Prabhupada: Yes. He was saying to my father, "Oh, your this boy will be very big man."

Revatinandana: They have science in the West they call craniology. It's the science of measuring psychology by the shape of the skull. Craniology. They think it's…

Prabhupada: Psychology?

Revatinandana: Craniology.

Prabhupada: Oh.

[pause]

The chutney is very, very nice.

Revatinandana: I found some very nice cherries in the store. Nice black cherries, very nice cherries. It makes nice chutney.

Prabhupada: So Panḍita Mahasaya, you take something? You take? No? You take at least one sihgara. Take it. Yes.

Syamasundara: He's fasting.

Revatinandana: He's having some stomach trouble from India.

Prabhupada: With vegetable? You can take it.

Revatinandana: It's not too spicy. It will go down easily. If Prabhupada says, you should take.

Prabhupada: In Vrndavana there are panḍas, they eat too much. So one panḍa, old man, after eating, he was practically dying. [laughs] So he still was instructing his son, "My dear son, don't be sorry. I am not dying out of starvation; I am dying by eating." [laughs] To die of starvation is inglorious. Better eat and die. [laughs]

George: As long as you're not thinking about indigestion as you go.

Revatinandana: Prasadam never gives anybody indigestion. Have you ever seen? If it's nice prasadam, it is perfect.

Syamasundara: That's for drinking water. That one's for washing.

Prabhupada: Oh, there is khir also, sweet rice.

Revatinandana: Is it all right, the khir?

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Everything is all right. Very nice.

Revatinandana: Jaya.

Syamasundara: I saw Peter. Also Peter is coming on Friday.

Prabhupada: All right.

Syamasundara: He'll make another...

Mukunda: Maybe tomorrow. He phoned me...

Prabhupada: All right.

Syamasundara: George's house is not far away from here, across country.

Prabhupada: Oh. How many miles?

George: Well, it is, actually. It will take longer to get from here home than it would from the West End and back.

Syamasundara: Oh, yes.

George: Because you have to cut across.

Syamasundara: Oh. At first I was thinking you were...

George: It's probably only forty miles.

Prabhupada: Forty miles means...

Revatinandana: You live south of London?

George: No, west. Just past the airport. We go along the M4.

Syamasundara: It only takes an hour, though.

Revatinandana: It doesn't take so long. If you come through Watford you bypass London altogether. There's a way to come off the...

George: Well I was thinking, the way I used to go when I passed this way off the M1 was to go through Harrow some ways, and then go through Harrow towards Slough.

Mukunda: Yes, that's the quickest route. You get there in forty-five minutes. That's how we came.

George: Is it okay if I drink it out of this?

Revatinandana: Also you have some water there.

George: Mm. Maybe it's just the yellow I'm attracted to. Because I love dal, and this one is really nice.

Revatinandana: That soup is very nice, from your vegetables. It's very easy to make also. [indistinct comments as eating goes on]

Prabhupada: I remember long ago one Englishman went to our Mayapur. So he liked this sweet rice: "Give me more. Give me more."

Syamasundara: Sweet rice.

Prabhupada: Hmm.

Mukunda: The Englishmen are said to have the worst teeth because they have such a taste for sweets. Their teeth are more deteriorated than anyone. They love sweets.

George: Well, I think the Americans just about take up the...

Revatinandana: I have the worst teeth. I like sweets. [indistinct]

George: I see those American kids [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Everything is very nice.

Syamasundara: That's good, though. Prabhupada said that those in the modes of goodness eat sweets a lot.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is taste of brahmana.

Syamasundara: Brahmanas.

Revatinandana: Brahminical quality.

Prabhupada: And ksatriya eats pungent, and sūdra eats stale. Sūdras, stale.

Syamasundara: Sūdras. Lower class men, workers.

Prabhupada: Fourth-class men.

George: So brahmanas eat sweets?

Prabhupada: Yes.

George: What was the second one?

Prabhupada: Second, pungent.

Revatinandana: Ksatriyas, that's the warriors, administrators.

Syamasundara: Pungent, spicy, pungent, passionate. Would you like a towel?

Prabhupada: Now I shall wash. No, I shall wash. No, I'll wash now. Finish. Hare Krsna. Oh, that's nice.

[leaves room]

Pradyumna: Yes.

George: How old is he now? Eighty?

Revatinandana: He'll be seventy-eight in a month, yes. He'll be seventy-eight in one month.

George: Seventy-eight. He's fantastic.

[indistinct conversation between Syamasundara and George, discussing how much Prabhupada likes it at Bhaktivedanta Manor and how he will stay there a long time if he's happy]

Syamasundara: He rises early in the morning, about two o'clock. About two, and translates till when? Five? For about three hours in the morning.

George: Mango. Is this mango?

Syamasundara: Yes. When we were at Yamuna's in Anglesey, [indistinct] Dennis ate more mangoes than two of us together.

George: Mukunda said something about on the street, by the small temple there, he took a temple at...

Syamasundara: Portabello Road. You know those stalls where they sell everything down the street? We have a stall, too. We... It's a free prasadam stall. We just give out prasadam all day. Everybody that goes shopping...

George: Samosas and...

Syamasundara: Yes, all kinds of things. And it's free. It's the only free stall on the street.

Revatinandana: Prasadam is always... People don't always like us for our philosophy, but they love our food. Everybody likes our food. I've experienced that.

Syamasundara: There's a lot of hippies down in that area have joined us just from the prasadam.

Revatinandana: We did programs all up and down England last year, schools and things like that. And everywhere we go, people say, "Got any of that Hare Krsna food?"

George: What happened to the guy, the devotee who was in Bury Place? He was like..., he looked like a big lorry driver guy, red hair and tattoos....

Syamasundara: You know what he's doing now? He's the, what do you call it, maitre d'... Compere. He's the compere at that big club in Soho, the biggest discotheque...

George: He's not a devotee anymore?

Syamasundara: Yeah. But he was working as a maitre d' in a big hotel.

Prabhupada: Jaya. Hare Krsna.

Syamasundara: As a... Now he switched his job to that big discotheque in Soho. What is it called?

George: And he's still wearing his dhoti?

Syamasundara: No, he goes in a suit at night. He works only at night. He goes in a suit. That's his job. He's a devotee. When famous people come in the discotheque he sits down and hands them a Gita or something and talks to them about Krsna. But he's the manager of the whole thing. It's a good job for him, because he can preach. He can preach while he's there working.

Devotee: You want to wash in the bathroom?

Syamasundara: Come see the statue, George. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Oh, you have not seen my room? [laughs] Your house, my room.

George: Krsna's house.

[break]

Prabhupada: And dahi also.

Revatinandana: Yes. Everything from the cow.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Revatinandana: The cow, providing everything nice.

Prabhupada: Cow is so important. These vegetable, grains and cow. Bas, finished. You can make hundreds and thousands of preparation. Why the poor animals should be killed? Take as much possible. And those who are flesh eaters, let the animal die-eat. Why lifetime should be killed? In India that is the process. Those who are flesh-eaters, when the cow dies, they are called: "You can take." Cobbler. So they get the skin, the hoof, the horn, they eat the flesh. So that's all right. Finished. And they keep the bones also for manure. Yes. After death. That is the system in India. Whenever a man's cow dies, this class of men, cobbler, they are called: "You take it." They will take it.

Pradyumna: I do not think many children like to eat meat.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Pradyumna: Many children do not like to eat meat. They are trained to eat meat.

Prabhupada: This is unnatural.

Pradyumna: I did not... When I was... I did not like to eat it, but they trained.

Prabhupada: Unnatural.

Revatinandana: Even from the economic side, they waste so much land for keeping a few animals for slaughter. They could grow large quantities of grains, fruits, everything. Instead, all the land now is devoted to slaughter, and they have to import grains, fruits, other things in England. The whole countryside is beautiful country, all like this. The whole country. And everywhere is nothing but slaughter business. And they could grow everything, everything that they need. In fact, that can be... We can..., eventually we can, we can do that. And this country would become self-sufficient. Now it has to import so many things.

Prabhupada: Yes. Vacant land.

Revatinandana: It takes many acres of land to keep one animal. On the same acreage you can produce enough food for several men for a whole year.

Prabhupada: Both for the animal, both for the man. Just educate them, these rascals.

Revatinandana: There are some professors who may be coming to see you. They are involved in that kind of thing. They are understanding that a little bit now, and they can be worked with. I talked to one today. I think he will come late next week perhaps. Not certain. [indistinct] He's a nice Cambridge professor. Very nice man. And they're very interested to make the society balanced and sane, and so they... This is the solution.

Prabhupada: Yes. Aim should be back to home, back to Godhead. But they do not know what is the aim of life. Give me that powder and water.

[George Harrison and Syamasundara talking in the background-indistinct]

Revatinandana: He's talking about the bathroom. George is interested in your bathroom. He's saying all these things. [laughs]

Prabhupada: There is no hot water supply.

Revatinandana: That can be arranged. They misused it. They put the wrong kind of coal, and it caught fire over there some months back, a small fire. Because they were... When we moved in they used the wrong kind of coal in it, and it became fiery and lit a small fire, so they stopped it. [break] But it can be...

Prabhupada: Revived.

Revatinandana: Revived nicely. We should do that.

Prabhupada: Of course, I get little, one bucket is sufficient. But when it will be winter there is need of hot water supply. So you have seen my room?

George: Yes, it's very nice.

Prabhupada: [referring to song transcription] So you can read it, or shall I type it?

George: Yes.

Syamasundara: Those are the words.

Prabhupada: Pralaya-payodhi jale dhrtavan asi vedam.

Revatinandana: I have it typed.

Prabhupada: Hmm? You have got typed copy?

Revatinandana: Yes, I have one here.

Prabhupada: Kesava dhrta-mina-sarira jaya jagad-isa hare.

Revatinandana: Were you playing it when I came in?

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Syamasundara: Once you told me that there is..., that we should try to describe in English some songs about description of the spiritual sky, how it is there.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is cintamani. This is spiritual sky.

Syamasundara: We sang that one, didn't we?

Prabhupada: You have got record?

Syamasundara: Yes.

Prabhupada:

This is description of the spiritual kingdom. In the Bhagavata there is Vaikuntha description.

George: Oh, there's eleven.

Prabhupada: Eh?

George: There's eleven stanzas. I thought there was only ten.

Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is summary.

George: Summary.

Prabhupada: Summary of the ten.

George: But there's only of the ten.

Prabhupada: Of the ten.

Revatinandana: What is the eleventh sloka, where it says dasya vidha rūpa?

Prabhupada: Kesava dhrta dasa vidha rūpa jaya jagadisa hare.

Revatinandana: Who is he offering obeisances?

Prabhupada: Jayadeva, Jayadeva. Let me see the eleventh verse, yes.

The meaning is sri jayadeva-kaver idam uditam udaram-he very magnanimously has written this poetry, Jayadeva, kavi; srnu-just hear; sukha-dam-very pleasing; subha-dam-all-auspicious; bhava-saram-and the essence of life in this material world. Kesava dhrta dasa vidha rūpa-Kesava appeared in ten kinds of incarnation. Jaya jagadisa hare-all glories to Jagadisa, the Lord of the universe.

Revatinandana: Dasa means ten.

Prabhupada: Eh? Dasa means ten, yes.

Revatinandana: I see.

Prabhupada: Kesava dhrta dasa-vidha-rūpa jaya jagadisa.

George: Is this pronounced like dhrta?

Revatinandana: Dhrta.

Prabhupada: D-h-r-...

Revatinandana: And the a is without a line over it. It's dasya. Dasya.

Prabhupada: R on a dot, dhri.

George: Underneath the dot.

Prabhupada: Just like k and r under dot, kr, Krsna.

George: So it's this way. The s has this little line.

Revatinandana: Shh... Shhh.

Prabhupada: Srnu [shrinu].

George: Is that s-r-n-u. Or s-i-n.

Revatinandana: Srnu.

Syamasundara: In the back of Bhagavad-gita, on this page, it gives the whole...

George: Except when you're trying to read...

Prabhupada: Yes, if you read once or twice...

George: ...and you're trying to go back and...

Prabhupada: No, you can once read that direction once or twice, you will understand.

Syamasundara: Little practice.

Revatinandana: And here there is also...

George: It's hard to memorize.

Syamasundara: It's hard for English-speaking people to...

George: I can't even speak English.

Prabhupada: You speak all languages.

Revatinandana: These have all got a meter, a nice meter. I have it on a tape, and also if you want I can go over it with you. I can sing it.

George: Well, we just included this song in an album, you know. It's not out yet. But it's got a different melody to the one we just heard now. It's really nice.

Syamasundara: How does your melody go?

George: Da-da...

Revatinandana: Is it a kind of a jolly melody?

George: No, it's [sings] dah da-da-dah da-da-dah da-da... [hums more] jaya jagadisa hare. Then next verse [hums more], jaya jagadisa hare.

Revatinandana: Who are you doing it with?

George: Well, Ravi recorded it a few years back when he had all these musicians over, Festival of India, and I believe the singer is the son of the priest from the temple in Goa. He's got very strange pronunciation, you know. The sound of his voice is very different. I'll bring it over next time.

Syamasundara: Yes. George has got a plan to bring all the good Indian musicians to...

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes.

Syamasundara: ...to Britain and live and record music here.

George: And not just Britain; to everywhere.

Syamasundara: Traveling tour.

George: No, I've heard so much fantastic music and it's such a shame that nobody gets to hear it, but it's so expensive. But now with the Material World Foundation I'm going to try and get...

Prabhupada: No, if you come to India you can meet so many.

George: Yes, well I already know so many. What I want to do is get them all grouped together as like an orchestra, then register them with the charity so that they're a charitable orchestra. Then my charity can pay to bring them all, and we do concerts and... Because even if you only did one concert, it's so hard to pay for thirty or forty people to come over and just to feed them for a week and send them all the way back to India. It costs a lot. But once you overcome that problem, then we could tour them, and... And they're all such fantastic musicians.

Syamasundara: You can set your... That's part of your... You can set your message in a palatable sound. You can make everything sound very nicely, all the words.

Prabhupada: Now India, the classical songs, they are diminishing. Classical songs.

Revatinandana: It's all cinema music now.

Prabhupada: They are all cinema music.

George: But the classical will stay there, like the Gita. It's just that people are...

Prabhupada: Why not sing Bhagavad-gita?

George: Yeah. Lata Mangeshkar, she did one. Lata Sings the Gita. But in the West it's very hard to hear some classical Indian music, because they're always playing the popular music. But the people in the West would presume that to go to India, you turn the radio on, you're going to hear the classical Indian music. But you don't hear it there either. I mean, they don't play it very often. They play Bismillah Khan or Ravi Shankar.

Syamasundara: Yes. In South India more.

George: I've got Bismillah Khan on a jukebox, Shiv Kumar Sharma.

Prabhupada: Eh?

George: I've got a music box at home. It's the type they used to put money in to play a record. But it has all the shenai, Bismillah and Shiv Kumar. There's that flute player, he's the most fantastic flute player.

Mukunda: Which one? Panlal Ghosh?

George: No, Panlal Ghosh is dead now. This guy is called Hariprasad Chaurasia. We saw him in concert. He's fantastic. He plays from these little flutes like this down to one four foot long and this wide. And the whole, the way he plays. He just blew one note and...

Syamasundara: Imagine what Krsna's flute sounds like.

George: I've been making recordings with him. I just did one, like twenty minutes. Which I'll play to you. What's this? Dasavatara...

Revatinandana: Dasavatara-stotram. Dasavatara-stotram. Ten avataras, a song about them, a hymn.

George: So it isn't... I see. That's the title. Yes, because we were just calling it Jaya Jagadisa Hare. I mean, that would be okay just to say..., I suppose. Oh, this is the one who Prabhupada dedicated the book to? The Gita?

Syamasundara: No, that's Baladeva...

Revatinandana: Baladeva Vidyabhūsana.

Pradyumna: Govinda-bhasya

Syamasundara: Show him that book. Here's the book that comes from him.

Pradyumna: No, this is just a kind of anthology. Mahajana-giti-Songs of Great Souls. This is one of the songs. They're songs by all the past spiritual masters. Jayadeva.

Syamasundara: Incredible songs.

George: How long did you take to read Sanskrit? [indistinct]

Syamasundara: He reads it like English. And he understands the words. You should hear him recite the mantras. [indistinct] Srila Prabhupada is passing on everything-Sanskrit, everything. Cooking, singing, philosophy. That's how it's kept alive.

Prabhupada: You can bring one paper to cover.

George: You've really got to be prepared for the future, you know. I don't know what made me think of that the other day. I was just thinking that the difference from now from the last few years. I mean in a relatively short time it's got such a huge organization. And in another five years...

Prabhupada: This prasadam for your wife. You take it.

George: Okay. Jaya.

Revatinandana: In another five years what?

George: Well in another five... It's like a snowball, the effect, you know. It's getting bigger all the time. And in the next five years I'm sure it's going to double. Just more. I mean it's going to have done more in five years than it has in the last, probably, two hundred years.

Prabhupada: One Japanese gentleman has predicted.

Revatinandana: You mean the growth of spiritual...

George: The growth in every way, you know. And at that point there's going to be...

Revatinandana: It's a very..., it's almost like a crucial time. Because at the same time the spiritual side is ready to grow, beginning to grow, the material side is becoming so degraded at the same time. It is crucial time, you see. If we don't know what to do and do it purely now, everything will fall down. If we do it right, everything will change and increase. Because you go down to Piccadilly or you go down to the Sunset Strip, you'll see it's going to hell. Hellish.

Prabhupada: The modern science is based on matter. They are of opinion that life has come from matter. It is a wrong theory. Matter has come from life. This is right theory. So they are just taking the opposite and going wrong way.

George: But what I was saying was not really related to, like, externally in the world, like Sunset Strip and all that. I mean just the, you know, ISKCON, the Krsna consciousness movement is getting so big, it's very big, and there's going to be a point where, you know, it's going to need such fantastic management. It's going to be like high-level business management in a way.

Prabhupada: Yes. So that it may not deteriorate.

George: So that it's just going to keep... Even if you can hold on to what it is you've got now, you know, rather...

Revatinandana: It takes that, and it takes purity. The spiritual practice that makes ISKCON a real spiritual movement has got to go on nicely. And as it goes on, then the devotees..., everybody is developing to take the practical responsibilities.

George: But at the moment, you see, you have Prabhupada there, who everybody, you know, he's like the figurehead and the spearhead and the one who everybody can draw their energy from. I mean, you know, sooner or later everybody's going to have to be out there on their own, doing, you know, carrying out what everybody's learned. And at that time...

Syamasundara: We'll always rely on our spiritual master, even if he's not here with us. We'll still take the strength from him.

George: Hmm. I realize.

Revatinandana: Prabhupada writes once in his Bhagavatam, he says, "One has to fly the airplane in the outer space. And once he is there, nobody can fly it for him." He says, "While he is on the ground he can take instruction from an able teacher, but ultimately he has to fly the plane himself." So Prabhupada is teaching us how to fly. [laughs]

Prabhupada: No, I have selected twelve heads all over the world. I am telling them. So by Krsna's grace, if they remain strictly to the spiritual principles, they'll get strength. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado yasyaprasadan na gatiḥ kuto 'pi [Sri Sri Gurv Astakam 8]. Hmm? Can you explain this?

Revatinandana: "By the mercy of the spiritual master one is benedicted, blessed, by the mercy of Krsna. And without the grace of the spiritual master, nobody can make any advancement."

Prabhupada: Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasado.

This is the Vedic injunction, that one should have full faith in Krsna and the spiritual master. Then everything will be revealed. It is revelation. Nobody can understand spiritual life simply by academic study. The more we become sincere and stick to the spiritual principle, it will be revealed. Prakasante. Just like sun. Now it is darkness. By your scientific method you cannot get the sunrise now. The sun will rise automatically in due course. Similarly, spiritual method is we have to work for the mercy of Krsna.

Therefore this service. Krsna is pleased by service. Nobody can compete with Krsna. He is not in want of money or anything. He is complete, pūrnam. But He becomes very much pleased by one's service. That is bhakti. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvataḥ.

[aside:] Find out this. Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55].

It is very important verse.

George: How many temples are there now, Radha-Krsna temples?

Syamasundara: Over a hundred. More than a hundred.

George: So there's only a couple to go. How many can you handle? How many temples can you handle?

Syamasundara: Each one is individual. We don't have any worldwide organization, centralized. So that it makes... We can have any number, because they are their own... Management is self-contained. But the philosophy unites us all.

George: You don't have to keep, like, shift money or funds or things from one place to another.

Prabhupada: No, no. They collect locally and spend. Buy our books.

Syamasundara: Philosophy and the principles. So actually you go from here to any other temple, they are all the same. People are amazed. They say, "Wow, what a centralized organization you must have." But the only center is Krsna. [laughs]

Prabhupada: Read that verse. Bhaktya mam abhi... It is Eighteenth Chapter, I think.

Syamasundara: I just found it.

Prabhupada: Bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvataḥ, tato mam tattvato jnatva

Pradyumna: Here it is.

Translation: "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God."

Prabhupada: Hmm. Purport?

Pradyumna: "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, and His plenary portions cannot be understood by mental speculation nor by the nondevotees. If anyone wants to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he has to take to pure devotional service under the guidance of a pure devotee. Otherwise, the truth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead will always be hidden.

"It is already stated, naham prakasaḥ, that He is not revealed to everyone. Everyone cannot understand God simply by erudite scholarship or mental speculation. Only one who is actually engaged in Krsna consciousness and devotional service can understand what Krsna is. University degrees are not helpful.

"One who is fully conversant with the Krsna science becomes eligible to enter into the spiritual kingdom, the abode of Krsna. Becoming Brahman does not mean that one loses his identity. Devotional service is there. And as long as devotional service exists, there must be God, the devotee and the process of devotional service. Such knowledge is never vanquished, even after liberation. Liberation involves getting free from the concept of material life. In spiritual life the same distinction is there, the same individuality is there, but in pure Krsna consciousness.

"One should not misunderstand that the word visate, 'enters into Me,' supports the monist theory that one becomes homogeneous with the impersonal Brahman. No. Visate means that one can enter into the abode of the Supreme Lord in his individuality to engage in His association and render service unto Him. For instance, a green bird enters a green tree not to become one with the tree but to enjoy the fruits of the tree. Impersonalists generally give the example of a river flowing into the ocean and merging. This may be a source of happiness for the impersonalist, but the personalist keeps his personal individuality, like an aquatic in the ocean. We find so many living entities within the ocean if we go deep. Surface acquaintance with the ocean is not sufficient. One must have complete knowledge of the aquatics living in the ocean depths.

"Because of his pure devotional service, a devotee can understand the transcendental qualities and the opulences of the Supreme Lord in truth. As it is stated in the Eleventh Chapter, only by devotional service can one understand. The same is confirmed here. One can understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by devotional service and enter into His kingdom. After attainment of the brahma-bhūta stage of freedom from material conceptions, devotional service begins by one's hearing about the Lord.

"When one hears about the Supreme Lord, automatically the brahma-bhūta stage develops, and the material contamination, greediness and lust for sense enjoyment, disappears. As lust and desires disappear from the heart of the devotee he becomes more attached to the service of the Lord, and by such attachment he becomes free from material contamination. In that stage of life he can understand the Supreme Lord. This is the statement of Srimad-Bhagavatam also.

"So after liberation the process of bhakti, or transcendental service, continues. The Vedanta-sūtra confirms this: aprayanat tatrapi hi drstam. This means that after liberation the process of devotional service continues. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam real devotional service is defined as the reinstatement of the living entity in his own identity, his own..."

Prabhupada: Svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ. The word is svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ. Is there?

Pradyumna: Ah, not [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Svarūpena. Muktir hitva anyatha rūpam svarūpena vyavasthitiḥ [SB 2.10.6]. Mukti, liberation, means being freed from other engagement when he is situated in his own constitutional position. That is mukti. That is mukti. That is the definition given in the Bhagavata. Muktir hitva anyatha. In the material world they are working differently from their constitutional position. So when they stop this work differently and is again reinstated in his original consciousness, that is Krsna consciousness and that is mukti, that is liberation. Then? Finish it.

Pradyumna: "The constitutional position is already explained. Every living entity is the part and parcel fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord. Therefore his constitutional position is to serve. After liberation this service is never stopped. Actual liberation is getting free from misconceptions of life."

Prabhupada: Yes. Now, at the present moment, generally people in bodily concept: "I am this body." "I am American," "I am Englishman," "I am brahmana," "I am ksatriya," "I am this," "I am that." So this is called bondage. When he will understand that "I am neither Englishman nor American nor Indian; I am eternal servant of Krsna," that is mukti. That is mukti. This very consciousness is mukti. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhūyaya kalpate. Find out this verse:

Read it.

Pradyumna: "One who engages in full devotional service, who does not fall down in any circumstance, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman."

Prabhupada: Yes. Immediately he becomes brahma-bhūta. One who is simply engaged in Krsna's service, he is liberated. That is liberation. So a devotee hasn't got to hanker after liberation. Because without liberation nobody can become devotee. Just like a man is on the bench of the high court. It means that he has already passed the law examination. Otherwise, how he is situated on the bench? So similarly, a devotee means he is already liberated. He is not living in the material world. He is living in the spiritual world. Therefore there is one verse, a sadhu, a devotee, jiva va mara va: either you live or die, you have no loss. Living also you are serving Krsna, and after death you will serve Krsna. Jiva va mara va.

So this bhakti, bhakti-yoga means it is for liberated person. That is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita: sa gunan samatityaitan [Bg 14.26]. Liberation means to transcend the effects of the three material qualities: sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. So it is clearly stated, sa gunan samatitya etan. Etan is plural number. All these gunas, qualities, he transcends. Therefore he is liberated. Those who are not liberated, they are conducted by these three qualities. The three qualities: in sattva-guna, brahmana; in rajo-guna, ksatriya; in mixed, vaisya; in tamo-guna, sūdra. So... But a devotee is not grouped. He is transcendental to all these brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sūdra. A devotee does not depend on this material division of society. He is above that.

Syamasundara: So when a devotee is even working in the ordinary world, he is still..., that is still the spiritual world for him?

Prabhupada: Yes, because he is working for Krsna. That's all. He's in spiritual world. He's with Krsna, associating with Krsna. He is always remembering Krsna. That means he is Krsna conscious man.

Mukunda: There's a saying in the Christian literature, "One should be in the world but not of it." That a person should live in the world, but is not of the world, if he is advanced spiritually.

Prabhupada: He is not out of it.

Mukunda: He is living in the world, but he is not of it. He is not part of it.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes. He is not of it. Yes, that's it. Just like we are living in Vaikuntha, here in this house. [laughter]

Revatinandana: It's a fact. It doesn't matter what you are doing-you're cooking, you're washing the floor-everything you are doing...

Prabhupada: The house is... Whoever will come in this house, he will immediately remember Krsna. Therefore it is Vaikuntha. That Siksamrta, Upadesam... Vaikunthaj janito vara madhu-puri [Upadesamrta 9]. Vaikunthaj janito vara madhu-puri.

So it is a very nice philosophy. First-class philosophy. Let people try to understand. Give them chance. Let us give them service. Krsna will be pleased, because Krsna comes, incarnates, to teach this philosophy. So anyone does for Krsna, he is very favorite. That is also stated:

Yes. Just read.

Pradyumna: Na ca tasman manusyesu?

Prabhupada: Kascin me priya-krttamaḥ.

Pradyumna:

"There is no servant in this world more dear to Me than he, nor will there ever be one more dear."

Prabhupada: Who is preaching this cult. That is... Krsna says, "Oh, no, no one is dearer than he." Just explain it. Purport is there? Purport?

Pradyumna: No, but then the verse before that, ya idam paramam guhyam?

Prabhupada: Ah, mad-bhaktesv abhidhasyati.

[No Audio]

Pradyumna:

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pradyumna: "For one who explains the supreme secret to the devotees, devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandana: Once Prabhupada said anybody who will listen is a devotee. If you listen and you just tell them, you are preaching to the devotees, and you are most dear servant of Krsna.

Prabhupada: We have to make little arrangement that people will be attracted to come and hear us. That's all. He hasn't got to do anything. Let him please come, sit down here and take prasadam and go home. He will become devotee. It is so nice. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ. Tan manyavitam tamam, Prahlada Maharaja said.

And Caitanya Mahaprabhu also, when Ramananda Raya was speaking, you will find this. You have got that Teachings of Lord Caitanya? Yes, you will find when He was talking with Ramananda Raya. So he gave so many programs for people's benefit. Caitanya Mahaprabhu said, iha haya bhaja. It is not possible, no. You speak something better. You speak something." So when he spoke,

This is verse from... When this verse was recited, immediately Caitanya Mahaprabhu said iha, "Yes, this is nice." So what is that? That let them stay in their position. It doesn't matter. Simply give them chance that they may hear from realized person. Sthane sthitaḥ, let him keep his position. There is no use of changing his position. Sthane sthitaḥ means in his position. Sruti-gatam tanu-vah-manobhir, without personally endeavoring, let him hear from the realized soul.

As soon as this statement was given by Ramananda Raya, immediately Caitanya Maha... "Yes, yes, this is nice. This is nice." He accepted. "This is nice." So people should be, in this age, simply they should be given little chance to come in our place and sit down and hear and give him prasadam. Then gradually become liberated. He hasn't got to do anything. Simply he has to lend his ear. That's all. And tongue also.

Revatinandana: There's... In London there's a middle-aged Jewish man. He used to walk by the temple every night on his way home. As he was going home, every night he'd walk by the temple and there would be aratik going on. He began to like the sound of the bells. So he came in and for three, four years now he's been coming at least two or three nights, if not every night. And he sits, he chants a little and he listens to the lecture. He likes the lectures. I talked to him one night. He said, "You know," he said, "I never cared much for religion," he says, "but I'm addicted to this place. I have to come here now. If I don't come, I don't feel good any more. I come here every night." [laughs] He's just a man, but...

Prabhupada: I like, I like. That's... Yes.

Syamasundara: If the world becomes populated by a certain number of liberated persons then everything will change. Everything will change.

Prabhupada: Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca taraḥ sahasrasaḥ. If there is one moon, that is sufficient. There is no need of millions of stars. Ekas candras tamo hanti na ca taraḥ sahasrasaḥ. One person enlightened is sufficient to give light. There is no need of glowworms. [laughs] Glowworms can be important only in darkness. But when there is sunshine it has no value. So George has to go, or let him stay this night?

George: No, I must go.

Prabhupada: Must go?

George: But I'll be back very quickly.

Prabhupada: All right. [laughs] So you have to go forty miles?

George: Pardon?

Prabhupada: Forty miles from here?

George: It's about thirty-five, forty. It's about forty or fifty minutes' drive.

Prabhupada: That's all right.

Syamasundara: Part of it is motorway.

Revatinandana: It's not so bad this time of night. There's no traffic.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is not congested. So you are going alone, or somebody is going with you?

George: I go alone. Well... [laughs] A little bit of you will be with me.

Revatinandana: Krsna is sitting in your heart.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya. [devotees offer obeisances]

George: Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: My blessings to your wife. Give this to her. Thank you very much for your coming. Hare Krsna.

George: Thank you. I'll see you very soon.

Prabhupada: Thank you. Jaya.

Revatinandana: All glories to Prabhupada. [end]