Conversation with Dr. Shaligram Shukla–Part 1 – July 5, 1976, Washington, D.C.

You'll find Vyasadeva has written so many books

Prabhupada: Everyone is engaged in the business of sense gratification. Just like last night millions of men went to see the firework. So the firework, as well as the people went to see there, the expenditure was very heavy, I think, total?

Pusta Krsna: You mentioned that with all of the cars going and what not, it probably amounted to about ten million dollars.

Prabhupada: Yes, plus petrol. But what was the purpose? The purpose was little sense gratification: "I shall see something illuminating." What was other purpose? No purpose. Simply to satisfy the eyes, to see something illuminating. That is one sense, eyes. Then there are other senses. They also want satisfaction. There are hands, there are legs, there are tongue, eyes, ears, nose. So every one, every one of these senses, they are engaged for sense satisfaction. So this is the life. But that sense satisfaction is differently exhibited for different bodies. Just like this firework, it was interesting to the human being. Human being has got a particular type of body, so it is interested to see the firework. But the cats and dogs, they are not interested. They do not know what is fireworks. They, while we are interested to see the firework, a hog may be interested to eat stool. If he gets some stool somewhere, he'll be interested than to see the firework. So because he has got a different body, he's interested differently. We are human beings, we are interested differently. Therefore Prahlada Maharaja rightly said, deha-yogena dehinam [SB 7.6.3]. This sense gratification, varieties, according to the varieties of the body. Deha-yogena dehinam.

But this is arranged, this different process of sense gratification is arranged daivat, by the superior arrangement. Daivat. Sukham aindriyakam daitya deha-yogena dehinam, sarvatra labhyate daivat [SB 7.6.3]. By the superior arrangement everywhere it is available. Either you become Lord Brahma or you become a small ant, the process of sense gratification, arrangement is there. [aside:] You can come in front.

Rūpanuga: Srila Prabhupada, this is Professor Dr. Sukla. He has written a very favorable review on your books.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. [laughs] Yes, I've seen you. Thank you very much. I'm just explaining that sense gratification, different types of bodies differently... So that is arranged by the superior arrangement. Sarvatra labhyate daivat. [Transl. You must be knowing Sanskrit very well?]

Dr. Shukla: [Transl. Yes.]

Prabhupada: So it is available everywhere according to the body arrangement. Prahlada Maharaja says... Where is that book, Prahlada Maharaja, Seventh Canto? Na tat-prayasam kartavyam, don't waste your time for that purpose. Na tat-prayasam na kartavyam. Why not? Yata ayur-vyayaḥ param. Simply wasting the valuable duration of life. Yata ayur-vyayaḥ. But practically we see that the whole world is spoiling the life simply for sense gratification, especially at the present moment. Yata ayur-vyayaḥ param. You can read.

Translation: "Endeavors merely for sense gratification or material happiness through economic development are not to be performed, for they result only in a loss of time and energy, with no actual profit. If one's endeavors are directed towards Krsna consciousness, one can surely attain the spiritual platform of self-realization. There is no such benefit from engaging oneself in economic development."

Prabhupada: This is our philosophy, and the whole world is engaged in economic development. So which is better? [laughs] Here it is said tat-prayasam na kartavyam. We see, especially in the Western country, they are very busy for economic development, and unless one is engaged... I think that Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they questioned that in India, people being fatalist...

Pusta Krsna: They questioned, many people think this is a hindrance to progress.

Prabhupada: So what is progress? In India still, in so fallen condition, we have got practical experience. If there is some arrangement... Sometimes we arrange Hare Krsna festival. Each day not less than twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty thousand people come. Although these, mostly these foreigners, they are chanting, and we are speaking in English, still, to hear the kirtana, they come from remote villages. In Calcutta I have seen. That is natural tendency of Indians. Bharata-bhūmi, anyone who has taken birth in India, naturally Krsna conscious. By artificial means, they are being suppressed. Just like this Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, they have questioned that... What they have said?

Pusta Krsna: They said that there are many thinkers in India who consider that the Hinduism is fatalistic, and therefore it doesn't encourage people to make material progress.

Prabhupada: That economic development. Our acaryas, practically in Indian civilization, there are so many books of knowledge, but there is no recommendation for starting big, big factories for economic development. You'll find Vyasadeva has written so many books, each book so valuable, instructive, but still he was condemned. Dharma, artha, kama, moksa , he dealt with these four subject matter, but not bhakti. Therefore Narada Muni chastised him, that "You have wasted your time, simply writing on the subject matter of dharma, artha, kama, moksa, catur varga." Then, under his instruction, he wrote Srimad-Bhagavatam simply on the glories of the Supreme Lord, without any attempt to write anything about dharma artha kama moksa. In the beginning he introduces, gives introduction to his book, dharmaḥ projjhita kaitavo 'tra srimad-bhagavate [SB 1.1.2], in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, dharma, artha, kama, moksa, they are all kaitavas, cheating. These things are thrown away. Dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo 'tra.

So this kaitava, Sridhara Swami gives his commentary, atra moksa-vanchan paryantam nirastam. The desire for liberation is also rejected. Simply devotional service to the Lord. That is only business. So our, this propaganda, Krsna consciousness, is on the basis... It is called bhagavata-dharma. Prahlada Maharaja begins his teaching that this bhagavata-dharma should be imparted from the very beginning of life.

kaumara acaret prajno
dharman bhagavatan iha
[SB 7.6.1]

It is little difficult subject matter. This is the only business for human life. And people are missing this opportunity. They are being allured by other business. The main business they are forgetting, neglecting, and they are being drawn, their attention is drawn, so many sporting, so many economic development, then other anarthas, drinking, gambling, slaughterhouse, so on, so on. So this is against human civilization. Therefore if you will give us some chance... Just like you have given. What is that?

Mr. Loomis: Could I ask a question? I look at this room and my senses are gratified by this room, by that painting, by beautiful flowers, by the chanting of Hare Krsna is pleasing to my ear, and I have to feel that my senses are able to help my spirit, or else there will not be this beauty in this room. But I don't understand very well when sense gratification is helpful and when it is not.

Prabhupada: Sense gratification is never helpful. That is described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, that kamasya nendriya-pritir [SB 1.2.10]. Sense gratification is required as far as..., as little as possible. Otherwise, not for sense gratification. Just like sleeping. Sleeping is required because this material body requires some rest. But not that we shall sleep twenty-four hours or twenty hours and enjoy, as in this country sometimes they enjoy sleeping. But sleeping is wasting time. So long we shall sleep we cannot do anything good work. Therefore it should be minimized. You cannot avoid sleeping altogether. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is not possible. But it should be accepted to the minimum extent. That is called tapasya, for advancement of spiritual life. Eating, sleeping, sex and defense. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna [Hitopadesa 25].

They're required. So long we have got this body, we require to eat something, we require to sleep sometimes, we require a little sense gratification, and we require defense. But it should be minimized, not increased. That is tapasya. In the human life this is possible, this is possible. Nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau. One can conquer over these things, by practice. The more we minimize this ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithuna, this means we are advanced in spiritual taste.[?] It is practiced. My, my personal life, I don't sleep at night. And nowadays, at most, one hour. Yes. But I take rest in the daytime, at least two to three hours. So it is not that I am sleeping one hour. I sleep three to four hours total. But if practiced, it can be reduced, practiced. We see in the life of Gosvamis. About them, it is said: nidrahara-viharakadi-vijitau. They conquered over sleeping, eating. If we conquer over eating, then we can conquer over sleeping and other things also. If we can control over this tongue, then we can control over the other senses very easily. That is a fact. Bhaktivinoda Thakura has sung, tara madhye jihva ati, lobhamaya sudurmati, tare jeta kathina samsare. [Gitavali, Prasada-sevaya, Song 1, stanza 1] Of all our senses the tongue is very, very formidable. So the first thing in spiritual advancement, the first thing is to control the tongue. In the sastra also it is said sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ. Ataḥ sri krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaiḥ [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.234].

Our present senses are unable to understand sri krsna namadi, the holy name of the Lord. Adi, beginning from His name, nama, then guna, qualities, then pastimes, then form. So people cannot understand the form of the Lord because they are not practiced to devotional service. They are more or less impersonalists. They cannot imagine that God has His form like us, because they are not sevonmukha. Ataḥ sri krsna namadi. Not to speak of the form, they cannot understand what is the holy name of the Lord, why they are chanting, what is the benefit. They cannot understand. Ataḥ sri krsna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaiḥ [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.234]. The present senses cannot appreciate. It has to be purified. That purification begins from the tongue. Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau. Then God reveals. When we chant the holy name of the Lord, purified, that is bhakti. Bhakti means to become purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc Madhya 19.170]. Nirmalam means completely cleansed of all dirty things. That is bhakti.

Bhakti means to engage the senses, purified senses, in the service of the Lord. At the present moment, in conditioned stage, our senses are not purified. Therefore we are very, very anxious to engage the senses for sense gratification. And when they will be purified, then these senses will be engaged for the service of Hrsikesa. Hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam. God's another name is Hrsikesa, master of the senses. Actually, we have got these senses. Suppose this hand is also one of the senses, to touch. We are claiming it is my hand, but it is not my hand. It is Krsna's hand. Krsna has given us to use it. Just like this room is not my room. They have given me for my use. Similarly, this body, actually, it is made by Krsna.

It is a machine manufactured by the material nature under the order of Krsna. So actually it is not my body, it is Krsna's body. Krsna has given us. He has given you a particular type of body, He has given me a particular type of body, so many. Yantra, machine. Just like on a machine, motorcar, we sit down and travel here and there. So we wanted to travel in a certain way so we require some machine, and Krsna has given us this machine manufactured by material nature. Mayadhyaksena prakrtiḥ suyate sa-caracaram [Bg 9.10].

So Krsna is within the core of heart of everyone. He knows what I want. He's giving us facilities. We wanted to enjoy this material world, and He's still giving direction, "All right, you want to get this machine, sit down on it and travel as you like." So we are getting different machines. Sometimes the human body machine, sometimes dog machine, sometimes cat machine, sometimes demigod machine. We are desiring all these things. American machine, Indian machine. When you are in Indian machine you are thinking "I am Indian. My business is to satisfy Indian interests." You Americans are thinking "This is American machine; it should be used for America's benefit." These are upadhi. Upadhi means designation. Neither I am Indian nor American nor cat nor dog. But as soon as I get a particular type of body, I think that I am cat, I am dog, I am Indian, I am America, I am black, I am white, this. This is our position. And people are struggling on this understanding, "I am this body." So long we think like that, "I am this body," we are no better than cats and dogs. He is also thinking "I am this body." Is it not? What do you think, Mr. Sukla? If I think I am this body, the dog is also thinking "I am this body," then where is the difference between the dog and me? What do you think, Mr... How shall I address you?

Devotees: Loomis.

Prabhupada: What is the spelling?

Devotees: L-o-o-m...

Prabhupada: So, what is the difference if a dog is thinking that "I am dog," on account of his body, and if I am thinking I'm an Indian on account of this body. Then where is the difference between this dog and me? He is working under the impression that he's dog, and I am working under the impression I am Indian or American. Then where is difference? Yesterday you observed this great festival under this impression that "I am American. I must observe this independence." Is it not? What was the meaning of this festival? It was interesting to the Americans. Other nations, they are not interested. They are not observing this independence festival. But the Americans are observing. Why? Under this impression that "I am American." This yesterday...

Mr. Loomis: Under the impression that what?

Prabhupada: Everyone is thinking that "I am American." So if a human being is thinking "I am American," "Indian," or something like that, and if a dog is thinking "I am dog," then where is the difference between the mentalities? [Transl. What do you say Shuklaji?]

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Of course, both, perhaps, are victim of some kind of illusion.

Prabhupada: Yes, it is illusion. That we are trying to describe. But this is going on. As the dog is thinking, "I am dog," the human being is also thinking that "I am American," "I am Indian," or...

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Then, perhaps, there is no difference.

Prabhupada: No difference. That is described in the sastra. Yasyatma-buddhiḥ kunape tri-dhatuke [SB 10.84.13]. This body is made of... Everyone knows what is the composition: the bones, the flesh, the blood, the urine, the stool and so on, so on. The body, what is the composition? This is the composition. So if I identify with these bones, flesh, blood, muscle, veins, and stool, urine, so I am a living entity, I am all these bones and flesh and blood?

Mr. Loomis: Is it better to have a human body as a machine to use than a cat's body?

Prabhupada: Certainly, in the sense that you can utilize for higher purposes. Just like you have got this human form of body. Therefore you are sitting here to hear me. The dog has no such facility. The dog has got the same legs, hands or mouth and tongue, and so on, so on, in a different way. But it has no capacity to hear about spiritual advancement of life. Therefore the human body should be engaged not simply for sense gratification. Kamasya nendriya-pritir [SB 1.2.10]. Find out this verse. Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. This is the business, tattva-jijnasa. Tattva-jijnasa means to inquire about the Absolute Truth. That is the only business.

Pusta Krsna: Kamasya nendriya-pritir labho jiveta yavata [SB 1.2.10].

Prabhupada: Labho jiveta yavata. You can satisfy senses as far as it is required to live. That's all. Jivasya tattva-jijnasa. The only business is to inquire about the Absolute Truth. Athato brahma-jijnasa. That is the only business.

Mr. Loomis: For this machine?

Prabhupada: All other business subordinate. That is only, because you have got this body, material body, it requires little rest, little sense gratification, little eating, little sleeping. We don't say stop it completely. That is not possible. Yuktahara-viharasya, as far as it is required. As little as possible. That is spiritual advancement. If we make our progressive life engaged in understanding Krsna instead of devoting in these unnecessary things, that is real life. That is real human life. The Vedic civilization is that. We find Vyasadeva writing so exalted books, but life was very simple. People are, now in the modern civilization, people are accustomed only to the comforts of the body. Not for spiritual advance. That is the defect of modern civilization. [break]

Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada, no matter what material body you have, by material nature given you, one of the most predominating features of material life is pain. I want to address myself to this question, because in Krsna consciousness, we frequently face this problem. We have the pain of, for example, if you do tapasya, that's a pain to deprive your body of sense gratification. If you don't have sleep, you have to force yourself. If you have sickness, mental disturbances, so many things, then there's the other kind of pain.

Prabhupada: That is being explained, that we don't want to stop sleeping, but minimize it. That is being already explained. We don't say complete negation. No. Yuktahara-viharasya. Simply sleep as little as possible. Not that to take, just like in the Western countries, they take sleeping as enjoyment. Is it not?

Pusta Krsna: They call it beauty rest. In Hawaii we went by a Beautyrest Mattress store. They call it beauty rest.

Prabhupada: Not for beauty rest. [laughter]

Devotee (4): There's a kind of pain also, like when your false ego, when somebody tells you to do something or yells at you or gives you instruction. We all have this propensity to try and lord it over. When that's being denied, we feel a sense of pain, we feel like something, you know, dejected in our service. The tendency is to want to be angry...

Prabhupada: Therefore you have to be trained up under proper spiritual master. You cannot work whimsically. Then it will not help.

Devotee (4): Should we always endeavor in spite of pain to push ourselves in Krsna consciousness?

Prabhupada: There is no pain. It is painful in the beginning, but... Everything. If you take some medicine, it is bitter, it is painful, but if it helps to cure disease, we must take it. "Because the medicine is bitter, I'll not take it." That is not sense. If you want to be cured from the disease, even the medicine is bitter, you must take. That is tapasya. Tapasya means things we are going to accept may be not very pleasing, but still we have to do it. That is tapasya. Tapo divyam putraka yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1].

We take bitter medicine just to cure our existence. Similarly, at the present moment, our existence is impure. Therefore we have to accept birth, death, old age and disease on account of impure existence. Otherwise, we are spirit soul, we are eternal, na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20]. So we are not in eternal existence, we are temporary existence. We have got this body, it will be finished. Then we have to accept another body, tatha dehantara praptir. Then again you live in that body for some time, and again the body is finished. Bhūtva bhūtva praliyate [Bg 8.19]. So this is going on. This is impure stage of our existence. So we have to purify it. Therefore to purify it tapasya required. Tapo divyam yena suddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. The tapasya required. That tapasya has to be given lesson, trained up. Kaumara acaret prajno dharman bhagavatan iha [SB 7.6.1]. That is brahmacari system, to understand the value of life. These things are lacking in the present civilization, but it is essential. Without this, there is no meaning of human life. Then it is cats' and dogs' life. Sa eva go-kharaḥ [Bg 3.40].

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Have the writings of Vidyapati come to attention, and if they have...

Prabhupada: That is very higher, not for ordinary persons. Vidyapati's writing is meant for realized souls, not ordinary. Ordinary, they will take as love affairs between girls and boys. Therefore it is not for them. Those who are already advanced, liberated, then these love affairs of Krsna and Radha, they will be discussed.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: Is there any plan of bringing those things out, publishing them, his poems and translations?

Prabhupada: It is not for ordinary. Canḍidasa, Vidyapati. Caitanya Mahaprabhu used to discuss Jayadeva's books, Vidyapati's books, very confidentially amongst a few devotees. Not publicly.

Dr. Shaligram Shukla: So you think they might be misused.

Prabhupada: Yes, they are being misused. They take Krsna as debauch. They do not understand. Therefore the Krsna's lila with the gopis, they are described in the Tenth Canto. That is also middle of Tenth Canto, and nine cantos required to understand Krsna, beginning with janmady asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1]. So what that is the Absolute Truth? These things should be discussed in the beginning. Then when one is fully convinced that Krsna has nothing to do with this material world, as Sahkaracarya said, narayanaḥ paraḥ avyaktad, avyaktad anḍa-sambhavaḥ. This material world is a production...

[break] It has to be purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc Madhya 19.170]. When it is nirmala, then it is possible. The first process is nirmalam. Sravanam kirtanam visnoḥ smaranam pada-sevanam, arcanam vandanam dasyam [SB 7.5.23]. This process is first-class. Not all of a sudden jump over. This literature, that is wanted, that should be kept in reserve for persons who are already liberated. Otherwise it will be misunderstood.

Indian man: Going back to this sense question, where do you think the scheme of art fits into Krsna conscious life?

Prabhupada: Art?

Indian man: Yes, like painting, or music, or literature, poetry, like that. Because the problem is that they, if one devotes oneself to these things, they are full-time things, they take all your energy and time. And so...

Prabhupada: Devotion means to engage your energy and time for Krsna. Anyway you do that, that is utilized. Sarvopadhi-vinir... tat-paratvena. Hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam [Cc Madhya 19.170]. So if you can serve Krsna by your hand, by painting about Krsna, that is service. If you chant Hare Krsna, if you hear the chanting, that is also service. Sravanam kirtanam visnu, about Lord Visnu, Krsna. That is the beginning. Krsna is the reservoir of pleasure, anandamayo 'byasat. So these things are producing ananda. If it is in connection with Krsna, then it is service. [aside:] So, Palika, you can take these fruits, cut into pieces and distribute it.

Devotee: This is not offered Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: Ah, yes. Just.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, what if, ah, for instance, I'm too fallen to closely follow the regulative principles and I find myself in that way...

Prabhupada: Just explain.

Pusta Krsna: Too fallen to follow the regulative principles is like saying a diseased man is too diseased to take medicine. So it's actually in our own self interest. We have to become enlightened, to understand what our real interest is. Yajna vai visnu. Now we are thinking that our real interest is to gratify the senses. This is perishable. When we come to the understanding of atma, aham brahmasmi, then we understand that our real self interest is to follow these regulative principles. As Prabhupada said, in the beginning it may be painful, undoubtedly, because we are, for so many lifetimes addicted to sense gratification, but gradually more and more ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc Antya 20.12], when the heart becomes cleansed from the dirty misidentification with this gross and subtle material body, gradually more and more it becomes favorable, joyful, cheerful. Krsna says, "Be happy by this sacrifice." Therefore the sacrifice must be joy-producing, anandambudhi-vardhanam. Simply that because we're presently in diseased condition, it may appear to be displeasing. Prabhupada gives the example of someone who has jaundice. In the jaundice state, when you take sugar it appears very bitter. The perception is very bitter. But everyone knows that sugar is sweet. So in the same way, the regulative principles are naturally painful for someone who is irregular. For.... Engaged in bodily identification of life. But gradually it becomes more and more pleasing.

Prabhupada: Practical.

Devotee: When we have Krsna conscious we are always struggling for some obstacles. It has to be a struggle.

Prabhupada: What is struggle? Chant Hare Krsna, dance and take prasadam. [devotee cheers]

Prabhupada: Is that struggle? You don't want to take it. Say that. Where is struggle? To take prasadam, nice prasadam, is struggle? [laughs]

Devotee: No. [laughter]

Prabhupada: You simply take prasadam, you haven't got to struggle. [laughter] But don't take anything else. Then it will be all right.

Devotee: He's not struggling, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: At all.

Devotee: He's not struggling taking prasadam.

Prabhupada: Su-sukham kartum avyayam. Raja-vidya raja-guhyam pavitram paramam idam. Su-sukham kartum avyayam. Find out this verse.

Devotee (3): Srila Prabhupada, the only way back to Godhead is to to attain the causeless mercy of the spiritual master. So...

Prabhupada: And you sleep. Just as your spiritual master will do for me everything and let me sleep. It is not magic. Krsna, when He advised Arjuna, He never said that "Arjuna, I'm your friend, God, I shall do everything, you sleep. You don't fight." Did He say? You have to fight to get Krsna's mercy. Not that my spiritual master's mercy is there then Krsna…. You have to struggle. You have to follow the rules and regulations. Yes, what does He say?

"This knowledge is the king of education, the most secret of all secrets. It is the purest knowledge, and because it gives direct perception of the self by realization, it is the perfection of religion. It is everlasting, and it is joyfully performed."

Devotee (3): So by struggling to overcome our senses, we can please you and obtain your mercy?

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, what does he say?

Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada mentions in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, in the Third Canto, that a yogi is recommended to take foodstuffs, half as much as he desires to satisfy his hunger, one quarter water, one quarter air, one quarter foodstuff. Is that fully recommended for a person in the the Krsna consciousness society? If so, how can you be [indistinct]?

Pusta Krsna: The basic principle is that-Prabhupada mentioned earlier in this afternoon's talk-that if you can control the tongue, especially eating habits, then you'll be able to conquer other things such as sleep. Not only sleep, but also overeating produces other problems like sex desire. Vaco vegam manasaḥ krodha-vegam jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam. So jihva, the tongue and the belly, udara, upastha, genital, one straight line, like this. So there's a correlation. If one overindulges in eating, then it becomes very difficult also to conquer sex desire, which is the main attraction, or bondage within this material world, not only for the human being but for every living entity. So the principle is that if you don't overeat it will become easier for you to conquer all the senses, as Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, tongue is the most formidable of all the senses. Tara madhye jihva ati, lobhamoya sudur... always lusting after more and more. Never satisfied. So we have to become sufficiently enlightened to regulate eating habits. This is done by taking prasadam at regular times, and gradually, intelligently you can see what you actually require. Not that everyone will require the same amount. Just like there's a plate of food so one person is big or one person is small. An elephant and an ant, both of them have different quotas. So everyone has a particular quota of prasadam they should take. Gradually by practice apart from this consciousness is required. It's common sense.

Guest: There are two, two functions of the tongue, one is tasting and one is vibrating? So which one is for the tongue? Preaching is a form of tapasya?

Pusta Krsna: Yes, that's described in the Bhagavad-gita, the different austerities. The austerity of the tongue, the austerity of the mind, the austerity of the body. It is described in the Seventeenth Chapter and the, and the austerity of the tongue, of speech,

It's an austerity, tapa. Austerity of speech consists of speaking truthfully, and beneficially, and then avoiding speech that offends. One should also recite the Vedas regularly. So preaching is also control of the tongue. So our philosophy is that control doesn't mean that you stop. It's not possible. Can you stop eating? Can you stop sleeping? Can you stop different activities of going here and going there?

Prabhupada: Give to everyone. Two, three pieces.

Pusta Krsna: But that everything should be done in relationship to Krsna. Then everything will become purified. Hrsikesa hrsikena-sevanam bhaktir ucyate. When the senses are engaged for Krsna's satisfaction, then they're no longer... The senses are compared to the sharp teeth of serpents. Serpents' sharp teeth are naturally very dangerous. But when engaged in Krsna's service, the sharp teeth, they're broken. So they can't give any trouble. Although we are using the senses which is the cause of bondage, these senses employed in Krsna's service, they no longer become a source of bondage, but of liberation.

Prabhupada: Durdanta indriya-kala-sarpa-patali protkhata-damstrayate. [Caitanya-candramrta 5] Serpent is dangerous, so long he has got the fangs. What is called fangs? If the fang is taken away that means he's no more dangerous. So you may show, hold it like this because I am sure that his fangs are taken away. Then it is not dangerous. Senses are dangerous, it is compared with the serpent. Durdanta indriya-kala-sarpa-patali. But if you take to Krsna consciousness that kala-sarpa, protkhata-damstrayate, the fangs are no more existing therefore it is no more dangerous.

Devotee: Is it true or not true that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta said that failure is the pillar of success and if it's true then what it means and for what sense was that used?

Pusta Krsna: I don't know exactly if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada has used this saying....

Prabhupada: What is that?

Pusta Krsna: Failure is the pillar of success. But generally speaking, to paraphrase it, it means that we should learn from our mistakes.

Prabhupada: Hmm. That is success. If we learn our failure and try to rectify it, that is success.

Pusta Krsna: I asked Prabhupada the other day, because Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, "Forget the past, it sleeps and never the future dream at all. Live with times that are of thee, and progress thee shall call." So I asked Srila Prabhupada, is it possible to forget the past? Srila Prabhupada said, "No, that would not be possible, but we can think like this, that 'I have done so many foolish things,' and rectify it. Not that we should remain foolish. Then what would be the value of our experience? Just like a child, he can put his finger in the fan and it hurts. So then he learns not to do it again. But if he's so dull-headed that again and again he puts his finger in the fan... Basically our experience from the material world should be duḥkhalayam asasvatam [Bg 8.15]. That the material world is simply a place of misery. Janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duḥkha-dosanudarsanam [Bg 13.9]. That we should perceive the miseries of birth and death, disease and old age. That should be our experience in the material world. From this we should aspire for real happiness. Brahma-sukham [spiritual happiness].

Devotee: So this... It explains also in the Nectar of Instruction that the man who may see others stealing and see others also put in jail and punished for stealing, he may have been caught himself and punished for stealing but yet he goes out and steals again. That this [indistinct] again and again. Is this a symptom of the causeless unholiness.

Pusta Krsna: It's called duracara, misbehavior. So atonement, according to Sukadeva Gosvami, is not simply repenting and saying, "Oh, I'm sorry." But becoming intelligent. Atonement means coming to the platform of real intelligence. That intelligence, "Why I am becoming implicated in this material world, in so many ways which will simply produce more and more suffering for myself?" Just like if he steals, he knows he goes to prison, so he knows it beforehand, he's not ignorant of the fact. In this instance, one.... He knows that if he steals, he goes to prison. So in the same way we should become intelligent and should understand the laws of nature, the laws of God. That's athato brahma-jijnasa. Inquiry what is the real nature, what is the real nature of Brahman, how Brahman has manifested this material world and how it's going on. Then become intelligent, act for your own self-interest, become Krsna conscious.

Devotee: It is explained that the intelligence is the next door neighbor of the soul, can you explain exactly what that means, Srila Prabhupada?

Prabhupada: So what is his question?

Pusta Krsna: His question is that the intelligence, sometimes you've gone like this, I've seen, you say that the soul and the intelligence are like that, that the intelligence is very close to the soul.

Guest: What is the relationship between the intelligence, working in the soul.

Prabhupada: Soul is above intelligence. This is the relationship. Intelligence is above the mind, and soul is above the intelligence. Senses, then mind, then intelligence, then the soul.

Devotee: Inteligence is also matter. Subtle matter.

Prabhupada: Subtle matter.

Pusta Krsna: Indriyani parany ahur [Bg 3.42].

Prabhupada: Oh, indriyani parany ahur indriyebhyaḥ param manaḥ [Bg 3.42].

Pusta Krsna: Manasas tu para buddhir yo buddheḥ paratas tu saḥ.

Prabhupada: So when you engage yourself in soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without being spiritually initiated we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. It is not the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. Sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc Madhya 19.170].

Senses remain there, it should be purified. At the present moment, on account of material conception of life everything is polluted with material ideas. So when it will be spiritualised, that is perfect. But instead of walking uselessly, if we use our legs for going to the temple then it is spiritualized work. And instead of going to the cinema, if we go and see Deity then it is spiritual eyes. Instead of going to the restaurant, hotel, if we take prasadam, so then you spiritualize use of tongue. Instead of talking nonsense, if you talk about Krsna, then it is properly utilizing the tongue.

In this way we have to practice. Nirbandhaḥ krsna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam ucyate. [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.255] Somebody is trying to stop sense activity. That is not possible. The sense activity should be cleansed. That is wanted. Otherwise how it is said hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam [Cc Madhya 19.170]. If you completely reject your senses then how we can serve Krsna? It has to be purified. That is devotional service. Sa vai manaḥ krsna-padaravindayor vacamsi vaikuntha-gunanuvarnane [SB 9.4.18].

Manaḥ krsna-padaravindayoḥ, fix up your mind in Krsna, then your talking will be purified, your walking will be purified, your handling will be purified, your hearing will be purified, everything will be purified. You cannot be desireless. But if we simply desire Krsna, sarvopadhi-vinirmuktam tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc Madhya 19.170]. Anyabhilasita-sūnyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11]. Our activities are going on on the platform of karma and jnana. Or little more on yoga. Karma, jnana and yoga. So one has to give up all these, karma, jnana. The karmis are working for sense gratification. The jnanis are working for being liberated. The yogis are working for some magical power. Asta-siddhi. So one has to become free from all these desires. Anyabhilasa-sūnyam, anyabhilasa-sūnyam, jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc Madhya 19.167].

Simply you should be prepared to execute the order of Krsna. And that is wanted. People are trying in different way, for sense gratification, karmis are grossly, they want something for sense gratification they want nice car, nice house, nice wife, nice so on, so on, so on. So many things. That is karmi life. Jnani, when they are baffled, they say, brahma satya jagan mithya: "The Supreme Lord is real, and this world is false", this endeavours are all mithya. They take sannyasa, but after few days, again they take to the karmi's life. So that is also not good. Restless, so long you remain karmi, jnani, yogi, restless. But when you become devotee you have no such desires, anyabhilasita-sūnyam [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11]. And then you become happy. Simply ready to execute the order of Krsna. Just like Arjuna, he after hearing Bhagavad-gita, what was his position? His position was, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava. Yes. Krsna, I am now ready whatever You say." That is wanted. He did not become a karmi, jnani, yogi. Simply prepared himself to execute the order of Krsna. Yes, karisye vacanam tava. Nasto mohaḥ smrtir labdha tvat-prasadan madhusūdana.

Prabhupada: That's it. This is wanted. This is Krsna consciousness. Krsna says, "You fight." He hesitated. "How can I fight? To kill my grandfather, my teacher? To kill my brother? My nephew? And so on, so on, so on. What You are advising, Krsna, I cannot do." Therefore Bhagavad-gita was taught, and after learning he says, "Yes, karisye vacanam tava." "I don't care for anyone. I shall fight." This is perfection. He remained the same soldier. In the beginning, he was declining to fight, but at the end, he has agreed, "Yes." In the beginning it was "No." And when he was perfectly Krsna conscious, it is "Yes." The materialist person, they are accustomed to say, "No." "No, God." When you become "Yes, God," then you are perfect. Jnanis are "No, God." The karmis are "No, God," yogis are "No, God," everyone, "No, God." Only the bhaktas, "Yes, God!" Yes. So that is perfection. This morning some Indian gentleman was talking about this impersonal, what was his question?

Devotee: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: No, some gentleman was asking the question in the morning?

Devotee: [indistinct] interpretation, that one person is interpreting in this way and another in that way, so they're saying they feel like if...

Prabhupada: So why they should interpret different way? Shuklaji?

Shuklaji: What was the question?

Prabhupada: Just... Explain to him.

Devotee: There was an Indian man there and he was saying that, you were presenting, Srila Prabhupada, the philosophy very nicely, but there are others who are presenting it in an impersonal way. And they are able through the scripture to support what they say. Prabhupada quote no, it cannot be substantiated that God is impersonal, because Krsna is a person speaking to Arjuna, so where is the question of impersonal? [indistinct] So Prabhupada said it's because they're speculating and cheating, that they're interpreting it in some devious manner, rather than taking what Krsna said, literally, as fact.

Guest: Well, I have given some thought to that. I found that whenever you take an impersonal view, it becomes a pure intellectual exercise, devoid of any feeling. And if you bring feeling into that, it becomes personal. Like, I don't believe that anything can survive without feeling. So...

Prabhupada: It is in the Bhagavad-gita, it is clearly said, bhagavan uvaca. It is never said Brahman uvaca. [laughter] People have no eyes to see. The absolute truth is realized brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate . But in the Bhagavad-gita it is never said Paramatma uvaca. [laughter] Or Brahman uvaca. Bhagavan uvaca! Vyasadeva, He does not say krsna uvaca, because Krsna will be taken, misunderstood. Therefore [Vyasadeva] directly says, sri bhagavan uvaca. So where is impersonal? There is no question of impersonal. He clearly says bhagavan uvaca. Aham sarvasya prabhavo [Bg 10.8]. Bhagavan says, "I am everything." So where is imperson? How they can bring in impersonal at all? It is simply dragging [?] the matter. This impersonal has killed India's Vedic culture.

Shukla: Well, the example is that Sahkaracarya, who was of course...

Prabhupada: Sahkaracarya, he advised bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam, "Hey you rascal, whatever I have said, you just..."

Shukla: That's what I was going to say. On the one hand he reached the height of that intellectual exercise, at the same time he realized that bhaja govindam.

Prabhupada: No. He is correct in his service. Because his mission was to stop atheism. At that time India was full of Buddhistic philosophy. Atheism. So his preaching was to stop Buddhism. Therefore, the Buddhists are sūnyavadis. So he said, "No, it is not sūnya. That is Brahman. This material world is false, Brahma is real." Lord Buddha said everything is false. He said, "No, the material world is false, Brahman is satya, brahma satya jagan mithya. But he did not give any further information of Brahman. But at last he said brahma means govindam, muḍhamate. [Oh fools!] bhaja govindam.

Shukla: There's a very nice story about this illusion. That once he was walking and someone who knew that Sahkaracarya preached this illusion business, was riding on an elephant, so he asked his driver, "Chase Sahkaracarya." And of course he did and Sahkaracarya started running. So this man said, "Why are you running, since this is illusion?" And he said, "So is my running." [laughter] He said, "So is my running, that's also an illusion."

Prabhupada: That's nice.

Rūpanuga: But sometimes the impersonalists, they say, Prabhupada, that this Krsna consciousness is just the beginning platform, that after Krsna consciousness then one can come to impersonal realization. They say that in the scriptures only Bhagavad-gita and a few scriptures teach about Krsna but the rest of the Vedas don't even talk about Krsna's name. So, therefore, this impersonalism is higher realization, but one comes to it, after bhakti.

Prabhupada: No. There are Vedas, there are so many names described. Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg 15.15]. If one has not understood Krsna by studying Vedas, then he has not studied Vedas. It is very confidential. Otherwise, why Krsna says vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam? If one has studied Veda, but has not understood Krsna, then his labor is useless. Bahūnam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg 7.19].

If one is actually jnanavan, then he surrenders to Krsna. Sahkaracarya said bhaja govindam, bhaja govindam. That is real knowledge. But if one says that in the Vedas, you don't find Krsna's name, then he has not studied Veda. Because Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg 15.15]. The actual purpose of studying Vedas means to understand Krsna. If one has not understood Krsna, then srama eva hi kevalam [SB 1.2.8]. They have simply labored for nothing.

Shukla: Also this, another aspect was answered, the Vedic literature, all that we have today, is not a complete literature. We assume that perhaps some part of the literature has never been copied and was probably lost. So if His name doesn't occur in certain portion of Vedas, it doesn't mean that the name didn't occur in the Vedas. This is something that people have...

Prabhupada: No, Krsna's name is very confidential. In the Atharva Veda, there is name, there is.... Jiva Gosvami has quoted from Atharva Veda. There is Krsna's name. And this, the best scholar of Vedas, [indistinct] he says, sa bhagavan svayam krsna, Sahkaracarya. Then other acaryas they have supported Krsna's teachings, just like Ramanujacarya, and [indistinct] he has quoted Vedic quotation, every sloka. So one has to learn the real Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Krsna is mentioned," adav ante ca madhye ca. [Sripada Madhvacarya] Everywhere is Krsna's name. But one must be actually scholar in Vedas, then he'll find, "Yes, Krsna is mentioned in the beginning, in the middle, and at the end."

Devotee (2): In the glorifications of Rg Veda, [indistinct] example of glorifications of Krsna there?

Prabhupada: Everything is glorification of Krsna.

Devotee (3): Whenever Krsna is mentioned in the Vedas, He's mentioned as the Supreme. Some people, some scholars say, "Well, so many other demigods are mentioned far more often than Krsna, but Krsna's mentioned to be the supermost. From the Atharva Veda, [Sanskrit]. "Krsna is the Supreme."

Prabhupada: Krsna says, mattaḥ parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7]. Either you accept this Krsna's statement, or you reject Krsna. But He says mattaḥ parataram nanyat. What do you want more?

Shukla: Well, Prabhupadaji, if anyone has gone to Gita and if he is still bothered by the historical evidence, I don't think he has read Gita.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Shukla: So we should never really be bothered by this question of historical...

Prabhupada: Therefore we have concentrated on Gita. This movement-when I registered this association, so when I wrote "Krsna consciousness," some friend said, "Why don't you write 'God consciousness'?" But no, Krsna consciousness. We are particularly preaching Krsna's teaching. Krsna is God, krsnas tu bhagavan svayam [SB 1.3.28]. But if you think that there is another God then you may do your business. We are concerned with Krsna. That's all. We cannot allow any interpretation of Krsna. That is our propaganda. [aside:] Yes?

Guest (2): There is a Swami, Gahgesvaranandaji, in Bihar and he is well known in Vedas He has mentioned in his books that Krsna's name in the Vedas is mentioned.

Prabhupada: Ah?

Devotee: Krsna's name in the Vedas is already there.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: He has clearly mentioned.

Prabhupada: There is, otherwise how Krsna says, vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg 15.15]?

Guest (3): The Mayavadis say that Vedanta is impersonal, and [indistinct] Vedanta...

Prabhupada: You do not know what is Vedanta. Now. In the beginning of Vedanta, athato brahma-jijnasa. "Now try to inquire about this Supreme, absolute truth Brahman." The next verse is janmady asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1], Brahman is that, from whom everything emanates. So now, what is that thing from which everything emanates? What is the nature of that thing? That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Bhagavatam is the real explanation of Veda. Brahma-sūtra bhasya. Bhasyam brahma-sūtranam….. vedartha parivrmhitaḥ, this Srimad-Bhagavatam, vedartha parivrmhitaḥ. ayam brahma-sūtrasya bhasya, by Vyasadeva himself. Vyasadeva is the writer of Vedanta-sūtra, so he's writing himself under the instruction of Narada. So to understand Vedanta, you have to study Bhagavatam. He's explained janmady asya [SB 1.1.1]. Brahman is the original source of everything. Janmady asya yataḥ. So what is the nature? Janmady asya yataḥ anvayad itaratas ca arthesu… [end]