Conversation – January 6, 1977, Bombay

That is our concern: how the world is misdirected

Prabhupada: ...Dialectic Spiritualism.

Dr. Patel: [laughs] You have taken their, I mean, word.

Prabhupada: It is not their words, but just to counter...

Dr. Patel: In fact, sir, Engel was a spiritualist, and his follower, Karl Marx, became materialist because he saw abject poverty all round, due to the industrial revolution. He thought in that way. He became...

Prabhupada: As if he was ordained to do it.

Dr. Patel: But, well, he felt... He was a philosopher.

Prabhupada: Such a rascal. He has moved poverty. He was a poverty-stricken...

Dr. Patel: He was extremely poor man. Yes, he died of tuberculosis. But that is what he thought.

Prabhupada: That means poor fund of knowledge. That's it.

Dr. Patel: Engel was a, absolutely a...

Prabhupada: These rascals will never go to the... Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Munḍaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. They do not know this science, these rascals. They manufacture. And we have also learned to manufacture.

Dr. Patel: No, he did only on the Western philosophy.

Prabhupada: No, no. Western philosophy... We have learned this art, manufacturing. Just like Vinobha Bhave has proposed: "I want mukti not in the traditional way." He'll manufacture his own way. This is his intelligence after eighty-two years or eighty-one years. "Not in the traditional, not in the religious way." Just see. He's still hovering in darkness, and he's going to get mukti. This is the position.

Trivikrama: Prabhupada has said that the Russian intelligence and Indian culture.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Dr. Patel: Sir, I may tell you, Russians are not that intelligent, I may tell you, sir. I have very poor regard for the Russian intelligence. Intelligence is not with Russians that much.

Prabhupada: No. No, no, all Europeans, they're very intelligent.

Dr. Patel: Including Germans.

Prabhupada: They're very intelligent. Germans are extraordinarily intelligent.

Indian man: The Aryan races are intelligent, and in Russia there is a mixed race.

Prabhupada: They are Aryans. They are Aryans.

Dr. Patel: No, Aryan as well as the other races.

Prabhupada: Mixture everywhere now.

Dr. Patel: No, here... I mean, so far as the Eastern European is concerned, they are more or less pure. We are mixed in a way.

Prabhupada: Anyway, we are not on that platform, we are or you are. [laughs] We think we are on the... Everyone in the material platform, more or less, they are rascals-here or there. The Bengali is guyera e-pitha ara o-pitha. You know this? Stool, this side or that side, eastern side or western side...

Dr. Patel: It is all stool.

Prabhupada: ...it is, after all, stool. [laughs] If somebody says, "Eastern side of the stool is very good," [laughter] that is his foolishness.

Dr. Patel: After the scattering of these Aryans, they have come different place. I mean, how is it that we brought all the cultural heritage in north, east and western districts? They must have also taken. But because they have to live very hard life, they are in cold countries...

Prabhupada: And what do you mean by "we"? We are not...

Dr. Patel: "We" means our forefathers. I mean, we have too, later.

Prabhupada: Forefathers may be saintly person, but we are not. Why do you say "we"?

Dr. Patel: "We" means the descendants of our forefathers.

Prabhupada: My father might have been very rich man, but I am a poverty-stricken man, loitering in the street. Why say "we"?

Dr. Patel: "We" means these Aryans in India, they brought all the Vedas and Vedic culture with them. They must have taken it in.

Prabhupada: That's all right. One who is speaking, he is not in Vedic culture. That is the difficulty.

Dr. Patel: I talk of these historical facts, sir. Historically, Eastern European races are just our cousin. I mean the Indian races. But still, they have not been able to take the...

Prabhupada: This, falsely to become proud: "We," "We have done." What I am at the present? That is to be taken, not that... Now in Bengal there is a... "Fourteen generations before my father took ghee, and I have got a smell." [laughs] What is that? Whether you are eating ghee or not, [laughter] that is talk, not that "Fourteen generations before my father and forefathers ate ghee, and I have got the smell here." [laughs]

Dr. Patel: No, we talk of Vedic culture, sir.

Prabhupada: Vedic culture is all right now. There is no question of "we" or "you."

Dr. Patel: But why it is not with them?

Prabhupada: Why it is not with you? First of all say why you are challenging them? [laughter] First of all challenge yourself.

Dr. Patel: [laughing] That's right. But they have not..., their forefathers have got. We have at least with our forefathers.

Prabhupada: No, no, their forefathers are the Aryans, the same forefathers, your forefathers.

Dr. Patel: They're Aryans, but they did not take the Vedic culture with them.

Prabhupada: They did not take; you are not taking. That's the same thing.

Dr. Patel: Actually, presently the whole world is the same.

Prabhupada: That's all right. That is our concern: how the world is misdirected. That we are challenging, this Krsna consciousness. It is not that "East," "West," "you," "I." Everyone is a victim. Bhagavata says, prayena kalau asmin yuge janaḥ : "In this age everyone is condemned." It doesn't say that "These Eastern, Western." Everyone is condemned. Kalau asmin yuge janaḥ. That is impartial.

[to Mahamsa:] How are you? Everything is all right?

Mahamsa: Yes.

Prabhupada: So Badruka has returned?

Mahamsa: He came yesterday in the evening. I could not see him.

Prabhupada: So, it is not yet registered?

Mahamsa: No. As soon as I get back today, it will be registered. He came just yesterday in the evening.

Prabhupada: So? What other news?

Mahamsa: We are just waiting to get some water facilities made so that we can start doing something in the meantime.

Prabhupada: The water is not yet there?

Mahamsa: One boring is finished. Now the pump has to be gotten for that. The second boring, we didn't have... I wasn't over there. I had gone to South India to collect some money. And then, when I came back, the people had gone away because there was no money to be paid to them.

Prabhupada: Why? I have already transferred it.

Mahamsa: That came just five days back, that transfer. So now we'll be working on it full swing because we have some money.

Prabhupada: So the bank has transferred fifty thousand?

Mahamsa: Yes.

Prabhupada: So the prospect is nice?

Mahamsa: Oh, yes.

Prabhupada: People are coming?

Mahamsa: Well, when I came... When I went to the south, down south, there was about 200--250 people.

Prabhupada: Coming.

Mahamsa: Yes. But then, when I returned, there was only fifty people.

Prabhupada: Why?

Mahamsa: Because the prasadam quantity was cut down, so the...

Prabhupada: Why cut down?

Mahamsa: I don't know.

Prabhupada: So you don't know. Who knows?

Mahamsa: Well, Tejas and Hamsadūta, they said to cut down the prasadam quantity, and so the...

Prabhupada: These nonsense ideas, why you make without asking me? I am paying money. Why it should be cut down?

Mahamsa: Yes. I, er...

Prabhupada: Don't do anything nonsensically. This should be increased. I shall pay. Why you are anxious? So?

Mahamsa: Now when I get back I'm going to work on it and see that at least every evening...

Prabhupada: They should come. Every evening they should come, as many as possible. Give them prasadam. Our mission is to induce them to chant and take prasadam. Then, next stage, if they want to work with us, it is welcome. If not, we shall go on giving prasadam and induce them to chant. This is our mission.

Mahamsa: The village people are very happy.

Prabhupada: Yes, they should be. That I want. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. Let everyone be happy. This is our mission.

Mahamsa: The stone-cutting has also started.

Prabhupada: Ah, that's nice.

Mahamsa: They're doing very well. And, er...

Prabhupada: Here we're inviting everyone, "Come here. Live here. Take prasadam and chant. Don't drink tea." That's all. [chuckles] That is... Hare Krsna.

Trivikrama: "No tea?"

Prabhupada: No tea, no cigarette. That is their disease. No tea, no... Don't stop prasadam. Never. Increase. I shall beg and supply you money, don't worry. But don't waste it. Simply you take money and utilize it for preaching. My only anxiety is that don't be extravagant. Otherwise you take money and spend it.

Mahamsa: Don't be extravagant.

Prabhupada: You should always know that hard-earned money is this. By working at night I am producing book, and they're working there hard, selling the books, and money is coming in that way. So either he or me, mine or yours, it is hard-earned money. It is not easily coming. And therefore we should be cautious. But there is no question of curtailing. There is no question.

Mahamsa: Now we are in the process of making a brochure so that we can present to trusts and foundations for bigger donations for the farm project.

Prabhupada: That's nice. They have amassed money. Let them spend for this village organization. This is real Gandhi's program. He wanted this village organization. But because they manufactured their own way, it was not successful. But if we follow this principle, it will be successful, without any doubt. These big, big asramas. Gandhi's asrama is vacant.

Dr. Patel: Yes, because Gandhiji [indistinct].

Prabhupada: No. They are getting money, but they have no such program.

Dr. Patel: That Ahmedabad asrama is absolutely vacant.

Prabhupada: It must be, because there is no solid program. There is no solid program; simply imagination.

Dr. Patel: No. Because the followers...

Prabhupada: Then how there will be followers? If there is some program, then there will be followers.

Dr. Patel: He wanted to defend the Congress. He wanted to defend the order so that the commoners [indistinct] and the program for social work [indistinct] was the plan. But before that he died.

Prabhupada: Everyone will die. More or less. [laughs] But [Transl. Kirtir yasya sa jivati. [Canakya Pahḍita.]]. If you do something tangible, then you will live. And if you do something fictitious, then with your death everything is gone. [Kirtir yasya sa jivati] But here the whole population is duskrti. They are krti, but they are doing something wrong: duskrti. How? Prapanna prapajante mam. This is his miscon..., mischievous activity.

Because he has not surrendered to Krsna, whatever he has done, it is all mischievous. Krsna says, na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ [Bg 7.15]. Why he has done mischievous activities, mūḍha? The only test is, if one is not Krsna conscious, whatever he does it is all mischievous. So immediately go, and you'll see.

Devotee: Yes.

Mahamsa: Every morning we go on nagara-kirtana to every village and invite them..

Prabhupada: Mmm. Yes, invite them. Invite them. [Transl. Please come. Sit down.]

Giriraja: This lady is coming from Germany.

Prabhupada: Oh. Indian lady?

Giriraja: Yes.

Prabhupada: [Transl. Sit down. You live in Germany permanently?]

Indian lady: [Transl. Yes, now I reside there permanently. I was very eager to have your darsana since many years. Today fortunately I got your darsana. I would like to render some service. I have got your publications over there.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. So would you like to do some service here, no?]

Indian lady: [Transl. I spoke to your people regarding the publications.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Sit down comfortably.]

Indian lady: [Trans_They told me about the case here and I was shocked to hear.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Cases are going on all over the world. In Europe, America…]

Indian lady: [Transl. There should be some provision about this, no? So much preaching about Indian culture is being done in the foreign countries. I know some persons in Delhi like Mr. Gujral. I talked to them and they asked me to give the details so that they can help.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. What can he do? Nobody could do anything about it. Neither they can.They will simply talk nonsense. The government people are all like that. At last they will say no. It doesn't matter how much you pay them. If you request them something, they will keep it aside for 4 to 6 months and then they will say "No sir, this is not possible by us." That is my personal experience.] They cannot do anything. Ultimately they will say no, and for this they are paying tax.???

Indian lady: [Transl. I also talked to the Information officer. He is a member of parliament. He said that….]

Prabhupada: I have got information...

Indian lady: [Transl. ...he would help. Kindly bless me so that I can progress spiritually. I am prepared to do anything to my capacity for this great service you are doing. I have also written something about it.]

Prabhupada: Very nice. You have got the desire, and Krsna will fulfill your desire.

Indian lady: [Transl. I have written something of my own. With your guidance and instruction I may be able to do something.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. It is all practical. When] you practice, then it becomes success. Adau sraddha tato sadhu-sahgo 'tha bhajana-kriya [Cc Madhya 23.14]. This Krsna consciousness can be increased by gradual process. First thing, just like you have got faith, it is nice thing. This is sraddha. Then to associate with persons who are already engaged in this business, sadhu-sahga. That is called sadhu-sahga. Adau sraddha tato. And then act like them, bhajana-kriya. Simply theoretical will not help.

Indian lady: [Transl. We publish a Hindi magazine from President's house, Delhi called "Sudha-budha-nari." I am the Editor of that.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. From where is it published?]

Indian lady: [Transl. From President's house, Delhi.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Oh, I see.]

Indian lady: [Transl. I am the Editor of that. Mohini Giri, the daughter-in-law of our former President V. V. Giri is the chief Editor.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Must be very influential paper then?]

Prabhupada: So where you have given her place, Giriraja?

Giriraja: In the..., one of the guest rooms.

Prabhupada: Guest house. [hums.]

[pause] Vira-gati, vira-nari, heroic lady.

[break] ...to me, vira-kanya. Not personally, but the daughter of vira, the wife of vira, the mother of vira, that is right position. Just like Kunti; she was the mother of vira, Arjuna's mother. Mmm.

Indian lady: Should I recite it, what I have written?

Prabhupada: Mmm, hmm.

Indian lady: [reads a paper-much indistinct and in broken English]

Religion and freedom as respected by anyone is fully enjoyed by the people in East, India and connected cultures. In Western culture religion's goal has got its deep roots from Western religion, especially Christianity. Every religion has got institutional basis and proper development of modern values and human respect in the members of the society. Same can be said for Hare Krsna movement. In the past ten years, Srila Prabhupada has gone to America and gave them spiritual knowledge to the people there. It [indistinct] a modern movement when this movement was introduced to the people in America, because by that time in the past ten years time since, especially by younger generation who are looking for guidance and to pick up their mental attitude towards life [indistinct] affected badly by drugs and in addition sex indulgence and to earning much money in the pocket to squander away. This movement is doing great service to the Western people, especially in America and Europe to do a, rethinking for the attitudes of life and the way of living. The rules of the movement are from the pure Hindu national religion, vaisnava religion which prohibits meat-eating, sex and awarding a life of devotion to God, which is in the form of Lord Krsna is believed, and faith by performing Krsna and arati, etc. Unfortunately, some interested people want to bring a bad name to the movement in the West in America from incidents occured [indistinct], that they are doing a brainwashing of the young girls and boys. More worst situation is organized in the West Germany, where an organized propaganda against the movement and the society has been conducted. In most of the papers they have been leveled as if they had been involved in kidnapping by young boys and girls and have kept them illegally custody in a Hare Krsna temple, and they conducted the brainwashing of these young people in Berlin and Hamburg intolerable accepted, where is done by some people with the help of police in the temple along with the relatives who are [indistinct] and distraught. And among the [indistinct] 8,800 DM was confiscated by the police, though their money was legally collected, legally deposited in a German bank by a legally registered society under this movement. In some cases young devotee girls was locked in one room and harassing questions put to them to terrify.

Some people have gone to the extent of writing them as prosecute and other [indistinct]. During the last two, three years it is forbidden to collect any fund and practice Hare Krsna [indistinct] openly in Germany. Even some court cases was put against the president and vice-president of the Hare Krsna temple situated at [indistinct]. The devotees were incensed. [indistinct] regular part of the general and sell book Bhagavad-gita written by Srila Prabhupada. These books have been translated in different languages of the Europe. The proceeds from these books are used for the purpose of collecting the fund for running the kitchen specially in India, this sect has been very widely supported by the UNICEF office in New Delhi, Sri Tarun Kanti Ghosh, minister of Home and Industries, West Bengal.

Prabhupada: [Transl. What this Shanti Ghosh?]

Indian lady: [Transl. They people say that there are free kitchen for the poor children.]

Prabhupada: Hmm. Yes.

Indian lady: These are the appreciation letters by Hare Krsna, Hare Rama. West Bengal to my personal knowledge as well as the appreciation of their bona fide program of the movement by distributing cooked food to the poor and needy people without any discrimination. [indistinct]

Prabhupada: Actually, you have seen in our Mayapur there is no question Hindu, Muslim. Everyone takes prasadam. There is no question.

Indian lady: [continues reading in indistinct English] [Transl. Chairperson has also in addition appreciated the humanitarian program of the society. In these ten years, about one hundred and five temples have been established all over the world. And useful work and service to the humanity is being organized by the society and devotees. It is expected that the people of India who believe in spiritual and moral values would certainly deposit to the God of the movement, because it is spreading Indian culture and age-old Indian philosophy to the people of the world which is a great contribution from a religious angle. Though Indian government is callous to it's pluralism…or any particular religion, as different countries have a state religion. It is quite known and logical that this movement needs a moral support from every side so that the useful program for the service of the humanity at large may be instituted to gain and obtain their fullest value of the service of the society for the humanity. So something like that I wrote. This is just little idea.].

Prabhupada: [Transl. What you wrote is correct. Very nice.

Indian lady: [Transl. Now you tell me what I should write more. My brother is the Director of publications, government of India. So with your blessings I will do my best in this regard.]

Prabhupada: It is a great, fortunate that you are trying to understand. So if you try to understand this philosophy, you will understand it is not the so-called religion; it is a culture for benefit of the whole human society, para-upakara. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission, para-upakara . Because people are in the darkness of knowledge, to enlighten them to come to the light, that is Vedic injunction: tamasi ma jyotir gamaḥ: "Do not remain in darkness; come to the light."

So our attempt is to bring these people who are kept in different types of, or different standard of darkness, to bring them to light. This is our mission. It is not sectarian-not for the Hindus, not for the Indians-but it is meant for the whole human society. Krsna never said that He's Hindu or He's Indian. He says,

He never says that "I am for the Hindu or for the Indians." Sarva-yonisu. There are 8,400,000 species of different types of life. That is the fact. Bijo 'ham sarva-bhūtanam [Bg 7.10]. Wherefrom the life is coming? These rascals, they do not understand what is actual science, how things are going on, how the laws of nature is working. Simply superficially, "We have got some ideas." Fundamentally they have no knowledge. So we are trying to enlighten them with our tiny effort.

Although it is single-handed, still it is genuine. If you kindly try to understand the whole philosophy. The first thing is, andha yathandair upaniyamana [SB 7.5.31]. The whole world is now being conducted by blind leaders. And they're keeping people in darkness because they are themselves in darkness. They do not know what is light. So they do not know what is the object of life, what is the destination of life. Simply in blind faith they have created so many isms. It is simply misleading. It is little difficult to understand that we are simply leading others... That's a fact. That's a fact.

If you impersonally try to understand this philosophy that every man is kept in the darkness of a different stamp, different ism... That is the first instruction of Bhagavad-gita, tatha dehantara-praptir [Bg 2.13]: after death you have to change your body. Then where is your ism? Whole ism changed. That they do not understand. They're so much in darkness, mūḍha. "Today I am very great national leader-my country, my...," so on, so on. And tomorrow by the laws of nature if I become a dog in Europe, then where is my nationalism?

And it is possible. It is possible. Because you are under nature's law, you are not independent. Therefore they have given up this idea that there is life after death. This is their first ignorance. Everyone is thinking that this life is everything for twenty years or thirty years, utmost hundred years-eat, drink, be merry, enjoy, then everything is finished.

The whole Russian people, they think like that. Not whole-I don't, I cannot say-but the learned, their learned professors, they think like that: "The life is ended after this body." So our people also, our these politicians, they also think like that.

Trivikrama: Carvaka. Carvaka.

Prabhupada: Yes. So this is the platform of ignorance. And people are so much deeply merged into this ignorance, it is very, very difficult to raise them from this ignorance. This is our task. The first business is to convince him that "Your life continues." Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg 2.20]. But it is very difficult for the modern man to understand.

They have been so poorly educated that it is very difficult. But this is the first beginning of knowledge. And if we are in the conception that "I am this body and the body is everything," then we are no better that the cats and dogs. So this is a movement to raise people from the platform of cats' and dogs' life. It is little difficult, but we have to do it. That is our mission, Caitanya Mahaprabhu: para-upakara. They're living like cats and dogs-do something good for them so that they may live like actual human beings. This is our...

So you kindly stay here for some days, read our books, and if there is any question, doubt, I shall be very glad to enlighten you. But this is the fact, the whole world is misguided by the rascal leaders, I must say that. Andha. Andha is the last word of rascaldom. Andha yathandair upaniyamana. If I say somebody, "You are rascal," that is; maybe partially he may be intelligent. But when we say andha, andha, then he's blind; he cannot see anything. So that is the description given by Bhagavatam: na te viduḥ svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya [SB 7.5.31]. They are durasaya, hopelessly hopeful, trying to adjust things-bahir-artha-maninaḥ-by external energy. Simply wasting time. It cannot be. This is the position.

So we are trying little bit, and if you help us, it is welcome. Everyone should help this movement, pranair arthair dhiya vaca [SB 10.22.35], by sacrificing life, artha, money, and intelligence. So you have moved among the higher circle. What is the opinion of our government men about this movement?

Trivikrama: [explaining] What is it our government people think about our movement?

Indian lady: So no, just now, I am not talk about now this moment, because I came yesterday night. In Europe I have talked with my Consulate General. Their people say, "I am helpless. You must go to India and talk about it," and for this in India. It is very difficult here. Because our relation is not good to West Germany.

Prabhupada: They're so afraid they cannot say the truth.

Indian lady: Their people don't like us.

[man says something to Prabhupada in background]

Prabhupada: Oh, where is good? Everything is bad.

Indian lady: German people don't like us.

Prabhupada: Why we are liked? We are poor; who will like us? Poor man is never liked, especially in the Western countries. They hate. And not only there, our Canakya Panḍita also said, daridra-dosa guna-rasi nasi: "If you are poor, then all your qualities are gone."

Dr. Patel: The disease. Poverty is a disease.

Prabhupada: So materially, wherever I go, there any gentleman I meet, "Oh, you are coming from India? Very poor country." This is our inteligence. Not now; fifty years ago, in 1930s, when one of my Godbrothers, one or two, they went to London, Lady Willingdon, she was speaking that "You people come here from India, and we give you degrees, and you earn your livelihood in India. So what you have come to teach us?" That's a fact. We go to England to take the degrees-MRCT, FRCA, barrister or so on, so on, so on.

Indian lady: And same thing is happening with Dr. Khorana. He has got Nobel Prize in America, but today people don't respect it in India. Dr. Khorana, he has got a Nobel Prize in America. The Indian government can't accept it. And after that...

Prabhupada: American Nobel Prize?

Dr. Patel: He did not win this Nobel Prize. [indistinct] he was an actual friend of mine, Dr. Khorana, who has got [indistinct]. He was very intelligent, extremely intelligent. That's why...

Prabhupada: No, no, I mean to say, Nobel Prize is given from...

Indian lady: The son[?] of America. The son[?] of America.

Dr. Patel: He migrated to America. He married a Swiss girl in America, and he made a original discovery in genetic code, and then he got a Nobel Prize. These people did not give him a job as teacher.

Indian lady: [Transl. He was refused any job here. But when America acknowledged him then India awarded him the title "Bharat-ratna or jewel of India." But he refused it.] He has returned it that "I can't accept it."]

Dr. Patel: His livelihood is [indistinct].

Prabhupada: This so-called nationalism. [Transl. is killing the humanity.] We don't say like that. Samaḥ sarvesu bhūtesu [Bg 18.54].

Dr. Patel: He's very kind man.

Prabhupada: Such a kind man, so we are not also bad man.

Dr. Patel: No, no, I don't mean that. [laughter] God knows [indistinct].

Prabhupada: The thing is that this nationalism is... We have to go beyond that. Actually they're happening. These boys, they're not thinking in terms of nationalism. Otherwise he had no business to come to me and to serve. We are in a different platform-Krsna-ism. That is our platform. So we shall go now?

Indian man: If you like. [indistinct] come this morning? He's coming to the temple for the darsana. [break]

Prabhupada: Dadami buddhi-yogam tam [Bg 10.10]. Krsna is within you. If you actually want to serve Krsna, He'll give you intelligence. He says personally, dadami buddhi-yogam tam. What kind of? Yena mam upayanti te. So it is automatically available if you are sincerely desiring to serve Krsna. eta saba chaḍi' ara varnasrama-dharma [Cc. Madhya 22.93]

[break] [end]