Room Conversation – January 6, 1977, Bombay

What is this nonsense, spiritual understanding? Simply some sentiment, waste of time. Produce. Enjoy

Giriraja: It didn't seem [indistinct] after two months. So today... Actually I was thinking of phoning his wife, because she was not well. Or one of our ladies could phone her. And then if she's still not well they could go and visit her. And if she is well, they could invite her, and then if she wants to come, then she'll bring him.

Prabhupada: Don't bother. But as an etiquette, call her. That is all right.

Giriraja: Mr. Mohatta telephoned to say that that other man who was here...

Prabhupada: Maheshwari.

Giriraja: No, the Kapoor, the Punjabi man.

Prabhupada: There was a Punjabi man.

Giriraja: Yes, he was not with Mohatta.

Prabhupada: A young man.

Giriraja: Yeah.

Prabhupada: Whose daughter, she called.

Giriraja: Yes. So Mohatta says that he's a very rich man, and that man who came, we should approach his older brother, and he says they can give a very big donation. And they can introduce us to other Punjabis.

Prabhupada: Mmm. So whatever you sanction, it will not be...

Giriraja: Well, we had a confrontation that they want to make a condition that we have to hand over these ten feet. So I said that this is a separate issue, and one thing had nothing to do with the other. So actually they have accepted all of our arguments. What is boils down is that Mhatre is pressing them, and they must, you know, why they are letting this slide by. So they say they want something to reply to him, so we have to write a letter explaining our case. And...

Prabhupada: Mhatre is an all-in-all.

Giriraja: He's not all-in-all, but he can make their life miserable. Because what he does is, if they don't satisfy him, so he raises the issue of the corporation. He says this man is not doing his work properly, he should be transferred. So...

Prabhupada: What he is Mhatre?

Giriraja: He is their municipal councillor. He is the representative for this area in the municipal corporation. Elected. So actually this came up before, and at that time we met the municipal commissioner, that they are trying to put this condition. So he agreed that this should be a, you know, decided by the court or by some third party and that he will not do anything to change the status quo by forcing us. So we have to put that in the letter. And...

[break] ...hitch. Not a hitch exactly, but there's this urban land ceiling, that anyone who has more than 500 square yards property, that comes under the ceiling. So we are exempt because we are a charitable trust. And apart from that, in the final plan, most of the land will be built up; it won't be vacant. But in order to get the sanction, we have to get either an N.O.C. that we are exempt from the ceiling or an exemption to get the N.O.C. So we have to meet some higher official. So I have to finalize it, but I'm supposed to contact the architect and we have to go and see about this.

Actually, the management is so bad there that they have made this requirement that any new building, you have to get N.O.C. regarding the land ceiling. But so far they have not given one N.O.C. for land ceiling because they have not yet decided what is the policy to give the N.O.C. So they simply are piling up the applications until they decide their policy. So first we will try to get exemption that we don't require this N.O.C. Then if we fail in that, then I suppose we have to meet the minister and ask him to give us the N.O.C.

Prabhupada: So why not meet the minister?

Giriraja: Huh?

Prabhupada: Why not meet the minister?

Giriraja: Yes. We've met him once before, because he's... The Municipality is under him. So when we met the Chief Minister to get these things straightened out, so at that time he spoke to this Urban Affairs Minister. So he knows us; he's quite intelligent, Muslim. But I think if... First we'll meet the city engineer-he's next to the commissioner-and just say that we don't want to have to get this N.O.C. So if he removes that condition then the whole problem is solved. Do you think we should go straight to the minister?

Prabhupada: Harassment.

Giriraja: Huh?

Prabhupada: Harassment.

Giriraja: Oh, yes. Completely. Their whole office, the papers are piled to the ceiling, and people just waste hours chasing after them.

Prabhupada: If there is ceiling, then we can divide the land amongst ourselves.

Giriraja: But that also they have blocked in the sense that in order to sell now that the ceiling is there, in order to sell your land you have to get another N.O.C. to sell it.

Prabhupada: Then? I cannot sell, I cannot use it.

Giriraja: That's what I'm saying. They make it impossible. They say they want the country to develop quickly, but they make it impossible to develop.

Prabhupada: Today I think fasting.

Palika: Fasting?

Prabhupada: I have no appetite. I could not eat even breakfast.

Palika: So I will be here. I will be here if you want something. They can call for me.

Prabhupada: Mmm. For the time being, no appetite. You can soak some little quantity chipped rice in water.

Palika: Which?

Jagadisa: Chipped rice.

Palika: Chipped rice.

Prabhupada: Flat, flat rice, in water. Soak it. Maybe if I feel hungry I shall take it. This is the condition of material world-simply harassing. This all these big, big government, government organizations, how to harass. The more you learn this art, how to harass, you become a big politician. Not para-upakara.

Giriraja: The opposite.

Prabhupada: Mandaḥ sumanda matayo manda-bhagya hy upadrutaḥ . Upadrava: disturbing. Adhibhautika: one living entity is harassing another living entity, killing. [pause] So I have decided to construct a temple in Bhubaneswar. What do you think? Shall I attempt or not?

Giriraja: Of course, that is our business to construct temples.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Giriraja: Our business is to construct temples.

Prabhupada: Yes. Temple, or preaching center. Temple means preaching center.

Giriraja: Yes.

Prabhupada: These people, they have made temple as a earning center. Now they have made it, but that's not purpose. Purpose is, that those who are in the neophyte stage they will get God-consciousness, man-mana bhava mad... [Bg 18.65], think of Krsna, offering some obeisances, offer something for pūja, mad-yaji. Then hear from the persons maintaining the temple, about sastra. This is temple. Now, this thing being lost, most temples and even churches, they are...

Giriraja: Closed.

Prabhupada: That is deterioration. Therefore they do not like that temple should be constructed. It is waste of money. God..., people should be instructed about God, God worship... Therefore sentimentality has no practical value. They must be engaged to work hard, produce money and enjoy sense gratification. Hog civilization. We are restricting, that "Don't work hard like hog and dog or animals. Just satisfy your minimal necessities of life, save time and advance in spiritual understanding."

This is our mission. Their mission is, "What is this nonsense, spiritual understanding? Simply some sentiment, waste of time. Produce. Enjoy. Invent so many things for sense gratification"-Western civilization. And this is very attractive to the raksasa class: "Eat, drink, be merry and enjoy." This is the raksasa mentality. As soon as there is television, or similar invention, they become very much enthused. They purchase, and sitting down they waste their time. I have seen in America the old man, no family, one dog, one television, simply wasting time.

And fictitious stories. How they are wasting the valuable human life. How they are kept in darkness. This is life. I have seen television. All [laughs] some fictitious stories. Here, train position. They have manufactured one big hammer, and train is coming, and these rogues, they are sending their hammer to train, and as soon as the hammer-ah, smashed. They want to see that. One man kept ferocious dogs, and one girl enter and the dog is chasing and the girl is screaming. These were so many nonsense things. But anyway, You know this?

Jagadisa: [laughs] There are millions of them.

Prabhupada: Shooting, one man. [laughter] That is. These fictitious stories they enjoy. They have nothing to do.

Giriraja: They could see stories of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Mmm? Mythology.

Giriraja: That is mythology.

Prabhupada: And here is fact. So one side is: people are no more interested. Whatever we shall attempt, to spend for temple.. This is our business. I think Western countries, the young men, they're joining this successfully. Adanta gobhir visatam tamisram punaḥ punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. Seventh Canto, first part. Find out this: matir na krsne parataḥ svato va. Matir na krsne. This is our law book.

"Prahlada Maharaja replied: Because of their uncontrolled senses, persons too addicted to materialistic life make progress toward hellish conditions and repeatedly chew that which has been already chewed. Their inclinations toward Krsna are never aroused, either by the instructions of others, by their own efforts or by a combination of both."

Prabhupada: Read the purport.

Jagadisa: "In this verse the words matir na krsne refer to devotional service rendered to Krsna. So-called politicians, erudite scholars and philosophers who read Bhagavad-gita try to twist some meaning from it to suit their material purposes, but their misunderstandings of Krsna will not yield them any profit. Because such politicians, philosophers and scholars are interested in using Bhagavad-gita as a vehicle for adjusting things materially, for them constant thought of Krsna, or Krsna consciousness, is impossible [matir na krsne].

"As stated in Bhagavad-gita [18.55], bhaktya mam abhijanati: only through devotional service can one understand Krsna as He is. The so-called politicians and scholars think of Krsna as fictitious. The politician says that his Krsna is different from the Krsna depicted in Bhagavad-gita. Even though he accepts Krsna and Rama as the Supreme, he thinks of Rama and Krsna as impersonal because he has no idea of service to Krsna. Thus his only business is punaḥ punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30], chewing the chewed again and again. The aim of such politicians and academic scholars is to enjoy this material world with their bodily senses.

"Therefore it is clearly stated here that those who are grha-vrata, whose only aim is to live comfortably with the body in the material world, cannot understand Krsna. The two expressions grha-vrata and carvita-carvananam indicate that a materialistic person tries to enjoy sense gratification in different bodily forms, life after life, but is still unsatisfied. In the name of personalism, this ism or that ism, such persons always remain attached to the materialistic way of life. As stated in Bhagavad-gita:

" 'In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination for devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place.' Those who are attached to material enjoyment cannot be fixed in devotional service to the Lord. They cannot understand Bhagavan, Krsna, or His instruction, Bhagavad-gita. Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram [SB 7.5.30]: their path actually leads toward hellish life. As confirmed by Rsabhadeva, mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2]: one must try to understand Krsna by serving a devotee. The word mahat refers to a devotee.

" 'O son of Prtha, those who are not deluded, the great souls, are under the protection of the divine nature. They are fully engaged in devotional service because they know Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, original and inexhaustible.' [Bg 9.13] A mahatma is one who is constantly engaged in devotional service, twenty-four hours a day. As explained in the following verses, unless one adheres to such a great personality, one cannot understand Krsna.

"Hiranyakasipu wanted to know where Prahlada had gotten his Krsna consciousness. Who had taught him? Prahlada sarcastically replied, 'My dear father, persons like you never understand Krsna. One can understand Krsna only by serving a mahat, a great soul.' Those who try to adjust material conditions are said to be chewing the chewed. No one has been able to adjust material conditions, but life after life, generation after generation, people try and repeatedly fail. Unless one is properly trained by a mahat-a mahatma, or unalloyed devotee of the Lord-there is no possibility of one's understanding Krsna and His devotional service."

Prabhupada: I have seen in San Francisco, what is that park?

Jagadisa: Redwood?

Prabhupada: I think San Francisco. What is that park?

Giriraja: Golden Gate?

Prabhupada: Golden Gate.

Jagadisa: San Diego?

Prabhupada: No, no, San Francisco. There is a lake. So there the ducks, the male duck is attacking the female duck. What is called? When man forcibly attacks?

Giriraja: Rape.

Prabhupada: Rape. Raping. And the human life the same meaning. So this is also going on. The water, the ducks, water on the soil, you know, the ducks are going, and little off the man is doing. The same thing, but in different way. The business is the same: punaḥ punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30]. But according to the mentality, he is getting different body, but the business is the same. Adanta-gobhir, unrestrained senses. Simply sense enjoyment.

The duck is also doing this, the ant is doing this, the fly is doing this, the mosquito is doing this, the man is doing this, animal is doing this. Same thing. Nothing different. That they call punaḥ punas carvita-carvananam. He has done this business when he was duck, when he was mosquito, when he was fly-and doing the same business again.

Lower thing that this business is being done by the hogs, dogs and other animals, lower animals? I'm also doing the same thing, but where is the difference? I am dog? Study nature, punaḥ punas carvita [SB 7.5.30]. That is required. This is Bhagavatam. Punaḥ punas, again and again. Changing the body, but the business is the same. And for doing the same business I have to undergo so much suffering of birth and death.

But the sense is, why not stop this business, birth and death? That they will not do. Duḥkhalayam asasvatam napnuvanti mahatmanaḥ samsiddhim paramam gataḥ [Bg 8.15]. This is parama gatiḥ: to stop this birth and death. No more coming to this material world for the same business again and again. That is samsiddhim paramam... Find out this verse.

Jagadisa: What is that verse? Samsiddhim paramam gati?

Prabhupada: That is another difficulty, that our leaders, they have no merit to find out the reference.

Giriraja: They what?

Prabhupada: Just like I have given this verse, but you cannot.

Giriraja: No.

Prabhupada: So how to maintain this business?

Giriraja: We have to study.

Prabhupada: Otherwise, if you cannot preach, who will come to see your big building? This instruction should be given. Therefore my centers are all there.

Jagadisa: I've looked in the [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Matir na krsne. Mam upetya. Mam.

Jagadisa:

"After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion..."

Prabhupada: "After attaining Me." That is the point.

Jagadisa: "...never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."

Prabhupada: "The highest perfection." That we want. That is our mission. [indistinct] And they are saying they are brainwashed. That is government: "They are all brainwashed." Some concocted ideas. The government [indistinct]?

Devotee (2): Bhagavato[?] Is this [indistinct]?

Prabhupada: And we have to preach to them. First of all you have to believe in God. And then, yes, God is somewhere, and you have to go there, and you have to meet Him. You have to play with Him and talk with Him. Who will believe you? That is the difficulty.

I've told many times kotisv api maha-mune [SB. 6.14.5] There is another verse. Bahūnam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg 7.19]. Very difficult. And we have to preach. Not only preach, but we have to stand on this platform very firmly. So that requires very great determination.

How you can preach unless you stand on this platform? So you should always remember that you have taken on a very, very difficult task. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati. Not very easy task. But one thing is sure, that if you be successful or not successful, it is your victory. Because you tried for this, Krsna will be very much pleased. That is your victory. Not that in every day you will be successful. That is not. I went to your country not to become successful. That my Bengali…?

Devotee (1): Poem?

Prabhupada: Poetry. I never went there to become successful. I knew, "Who will accept this philosophy? Just let me try." My Guru Maharaja said. I, I, I thought that "I shall loiter in the streets for few days more," that's all. Actually I did that. No friend, no shelter, no nothing; everyone is working, here and there. And finally, so disappointed, I went to the ticket office, and then I was speaking about to go back to India. [laughs]

That manager told me, "Swamiji, why you should go? You are coming." "Yes, when I am disappointed I come; otherwise I don't want to go away." I told him. For one year continually, it was all Krsna's plan. But when I took the risk of $200, rent, without any source of income… [laughs] I had $200; I prayed, "Take this storefront beginning." So that was actually the beginning. And these boys, Hayagriva and Kirtanananda, Satsvarūpa and Brahmananda, in this way. Umapati…

Hari-sauri: Mukunda.

Prabhupada: And Mukunda. They [indistinct].

Giriraja: They must have been very intelligent.

Prabhupada: Yes, Hayagriva is intelligent. Undoubtedly. On account of his past habits, he sometimes falters. Hayagriva is undoubtedly intelligent. Kirtanananda too. You are all intelligent. So I am surprised how Brahmananda… Maya is so strong. From the very beginning he came voluntarily. He immediately offered whatever he got; it was maybe $400. Practically, after his joining I got some relief. Otherwise I had to collect. Somehow or other, there were $200, rent and other things… When Brahmananda came I got little relief. He has some income.

Giriraja: He always used to say that he needed your personal association a lot.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Giriraja: I remember Brahmananda Maharaja, he used to tell me that he needed your personal association.

Prabhupada: Yes, he was made the president. I made him the president. He is a very saintly person. That is his another defect... And his brother is just the opposite, [laughs] Gargamuni. So on the whole it is a very difficult task, but still we have to pull on. So what is your opinion? Shall I begin to construct?

Giriraja: Well, I mean, from a preaching point of view, it is a good idea. It is the managing...

Prabhupada: Why you are always speculating? From the very beginning, I was loitering on the streets of New York. Who thought that I would get this place, so prestigious? [laughter] Can anyone think of it?

Giriraja: No.

Prabhupada: And the whole country is now opposing. [laughter]

Hari-sauri: The shape[?]...

Prabhupada: The movement of a street loafer. Why do you speculate? Now we are entering into Russia. You have seen the Russian news?

Hari-sauri: Begin[?]. [break]

Prabhupada: So you are going to the downtown, no?

Giriraja: Yes.

Prabhupada: So if you can go to the Bank of America. You bring that...

Giriraja: Yes, I went there yesterday.

Prabhupada: Ah.

Giriraja: They said that the new receipt is ready.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Giriraja: We just have to bring the old one.

Prabhupada: Uh?

Giriraja: You have the old receipt, certificate? [break]

Prabhupada: Our business is to open temple and print books. I have made condition that I shall give you books. So by selling books, you spend half the money for temple and half for reprinting. That he has agreed. From the beginning I made, "Print some books, one lakh and two lakhs. Let them sell, that..."

Giriraja: It's a good idea.

Prabhupada: Yes, business idea.

Giriraja: Yes.

Prabhupada: But that is my business. Therefore I encourage, "Print books." I'll pay, whatever money I've got, I'll pay. I don't like to keep in the bank. I want to see it, it is transformed into books. Here, also you do. Keep all books, but nicely. It will sell; it may take time. It will sell.

Giriraja: Yes.

Prabhupada: If we finish all this money that I have, then we remain empty pocket. Bas. That's all. No income tax. If you want tax? Pocket, finished. [laughter] And as soon as there will be money there will be so much...

Devotee: Envy?

Prabhupada: Huh? Therefore I want to convert all this money into books. Do that. And nice almira, so that the books may not go bad. Print books, and now we are getting the paper. We have got a good place, so follow this policy. Whatever money I have got, spend for this purpose. What do you think?

Giriraja: Yes.

Prabhupada: Yes. Do it.

Giriraja: Actually, many people are asking for Marathi.

Prabhupada: Hmm?

Giriraja: They are asking...

Prabhupada: Yes, any language... All languages of the whole world. Print books, and work for distributing. That is our business. Print books and distribute. For that, whatever energy is required, employ. If you cannot preach individually, if they purchase one book and read, that is also good. Yes. [end]