Conversation at the Gītā Pratiṣṭhāna (Conference) – December 20, 1976, Wardha

What right you have got to say that you have understood Bhagavad-gita?

Prabhupada: That Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam [Bg 4.1]: "This science of Bhagavad-gita, I spoke to the sun-god millions of years ago." By the calculation it is forty millions of years ago. Now who will believe that, that Krsna spoke this Bhagavad-gita forty millions of years ago to the sun-god? Hmm? Who will believe that? They'll say mythology. So where is the faith in Bhagavad-gita and faith in the words of Krsna? Understanding Hamlet without Hamlet. [indistinct] You cannot make your interpretation that whatever is written there, I take instead of..., I take... [coughing] That is not the way of understanding Bhagavad-gita. Then from the very beginning you'll spoil it. Then what is the meaning of preaching Bhagavad-gita? If you do not accept the direction of the author, then what right you have got to say that you have understood Bhagavad-gita?

Sriman Narayana: Could it be that there may be different interpretations?

Prabhupada: No, that is not possible. That is not the process. You cannot interpret Bhagavad-gita. If you want to preach Bhagavad-gita, you must preach what Krsna has said. If you have got a different philosophy, you can say differently. You don't cheat people that you take Bhagavad-gita and interpret in your own way and cheat others and be cheated yourself. You cannot do that.

Sriman Narayana: Well, for example, Tilak Maharaja...

Prabhupada: Tilak may be, Gandhi may be, whoever may be. But the point is that you have to understand Bhagavad-gita according to the direction of the author. Because you are Mr. Tilak or Mr. Gandhi, you can do everything on Bhagavad-gita...

Sriman Narayana: No, no, that is not the idea. But there are different type slokas.

Prabhupada: Now how you have got a different types of... Let me explain. Just like the Bhagavad-gita begins, dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavaḥ [Bg 1.1]. So dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre, how you can interpret in a different way? Kuruksetra is already there. But how you can interpret, "Kuruksetra means this, Kuruksetra means that"? You cannot interpret.

Sriman Narayana: Yes, but who is decided what exactly the meaning...

Prabhupada: Exactly the meaning is there.

Sriman Narayana: Literal, literally.

Prabhupada: Literally, yes. The thing is, the interpretation is required when you cannot understand. If..., if I say, "This is a stick," everyone knows it is a stick. So I say, "Here is a stick." So if you say, "No, I do not accept it is stick," so what is that interpretation? Everyone knows it is stick. Similarly, Kuruksetra means that the place, still existing. And in the Vedic sastra it is ordered, kuruksetre dharma yajayet. "If anyone wants to perform religious rites, he should go to Kuruksetra."

You go... From time immemorial it is a place of pilgrimage. Even Krsna, during solar eclipse, Krsna with His family, He came there, Jagannatha. The ceremony is there, Ratha-yatra. Because Krsna, Balarama and Subhadra came in the same chariot, that is being performed. So Kuruksetra, dharmaksetra, at least five thousand years ago the system was that people used to come to Kuruksetra as a place of pilgrimage, dharmaksetra. And Kuruksetra, the place is there. And the Mahabharata history two family members, the Kurus and the Panḍavas, they fought. The Battle of Kuruksetra took place. These things are evident. Then why there is need of interpreting? That is the first point.

Sriman Narayana: Those points are very clear.

Prabhupada: Every point is very clear. In the Bhagavad-gita, every point is very clear, unless you interpret it in the wrong way.

Sriman Narayana: Svamiji, I have one question. We were just discussing before you came whther there is need and possibility of coordination of work between different institutions for…

Prabhupada: But how it can be coordination? If you interpret in your own way, you interpret in your own way, you interpret, then where is coordination? Best thing is that take Bhagavad-gita as it is. Then there will be coordination. Why you should interpret? You have no right to interpret on the words of Bhagavad-gita.

Sriman Narayana: But Svamiji, you have also written so much literature on this. That is an interpretation.

Prabhupada: No, that is not interpretation. That is explanation. Interpretation, if I change Kuruksetra into something else, that is interpretation. That is wisdom. That is wisdom.

Sriman Narayana: This controversy is not there as far as this discussion goes.

Prabhupada: No, I mean to say, instead of collecting so many hundreds and thousands of literature on the Bhagavad-gita, why not take Bhagavad-gita as it is? What is the difficulty? Kuruksetra is this position is fact. Mahabharata, Mahabharata means greater India. And that is, it is itihasa. It is called itihasa. Itihasa, if you don't believe that there was a battle in the Kuruksetra... But that is the fact. It is the history. Then how you can finish[?] Bhagavad-Gita?

Sriman Narayana: This controversy is not there as far as this discussion goes.

Prabhupada: Every point you take Bhagavad-gita, it is clear. It is clear. There is no need of interpretation. That is the first thing. If you interpret you spoil the whole thing. That's all. Because interpretation is required when the things are not clear. If everything is clear, why should you interpret?

Guest (1): Basically there is no difference of opinion.

Sriman Narayana: No, it is explanation I think.

Prabhupada: Explanation, you cannot explain that Kuruksetra means this, dharmaksetra means this, Panḍava means this. Why?

Guest: No, no. Whenever you translate something from one language to another there is always…So far the Sanskrit version is concerned…

Prabhupada: Take Sanskrit. Take Sanskrit. Dharmaksetre kuruksetre. Do not require to go any other language. Take Sanskrit. Kuruksetra is clear, dharmaksetra is clear, Panḍava is clear. Then why should we interpret? Why not take the particular verse. Everything, when there is a chance, then please do not try to translate and show your foolishness. If there is such chance that by translating the whole thing will be changed, then what is the use of such translation?

Sriman Narayana: Then take the Sanskrit. That is the basic.

Prabhupada: Yes. Then you first of all learn Sanskrit, then you read Bhagavad-gita. If there is such chance that if I interpret then the whole thing will be changed. This practice should be stopped. If you want to preach Bhagavad-gita, and if you want to preach your own philosophy through Bhagavad-gita, don't do this cheating work. You preach your philosophy, you are at liberty. You can preach any philosophy you like, but don't take Bhagavad-gita and do this nonsense. That is my first point. That is being done. That is being done. So therefore, instead of studying, collecting so many literatures, why not take Bhagavad-gita as it is and preach? And as evidence to prove this is that all over the world they are accepting. Before me for 200 years there was preaching of Bhagavad-gita. Not a single person became... It is the history of the devotee of Krsna. Now you see thousands. Why? Because there is no interpretation. There is no interpretation. Krsna says, "I am the Supreme." Mattaḥ parataram nanyat [Bg 7.7].

We are presenting, "Here is God." You are searching after God, here is God, and they are accepting. They do not heard, what is Krsna. How they are accepting? Because it is the real thing, there is no interpretation. They are not Hindus, they are not born in India. How they have come to Krsna consciousness? Just see! They have tilaka, sikha, Brahmin thread.They have given up past habits, no illicit sex. Because you cannot understand Krsna unless you are free from all sinful activities. And one who is sinful, he cannot understand Krsna. Na mam duskrtino mūḍhaḥ prapadyante naradhamaḥ [Bg 7.15].

We test him. We test like this, that Krsna says this, that anyone who does not surrender to Krsna as the Supreme Lord, he is under the four groups: duskrtina, mūḍhaḥ, naradhamaḥ, mayayapahrta-jnana. That's it. We are fools and rascals, we have no much education. But we take Krsna's word that "Here is a fool, here is a sinful man, here is a naradhamaḥ, here is mayayapahrta." So unless you stick to this point, that we shall preach Bhagavad-gita as Krsna says, then there is no meaning of it. You are misled, you will mislead others. But if you take Bhagavad-gita as it is, as Krsna said, then it will be accepted. If you are not prepared to do that, then however you make combination, or coordination and interpretation, thousands of literatures, the result will be zero. That's all. This is practical.

Sriman Narayana: No, we did not discuss any differences. If we take it as the…

Prabhupada: If there is no difference, then why there are so many interpretations of Bhagavad-gita? There is no need of…

Sriman Narayana: No interpretation, but in different words they explain the same thing.

Prabhupada: No. No.

Giriraja: They say different things.

Sriman Narayana: They say different things.

Guest 1: [Transl. You are right, because one should present one's view in one's own way.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Then there will be benefit. If it is milk you serve milk. What's the use of serving it by mixing some water?]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. There is difference in everything. I ask you, in our childhood we read "Gita- rahasya" by Tilak Maharaja.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Let me answer. In childhood you don't have the qualification to read Bhagavad-gita. I tell you. In your childhood you might have seen Bhagavad-gita and read it …But the Supreme Lord is saying, imam rajarsayo viduḥ. [Bg 4.2] This is meant for saintly kings. It is not for foolish people. In childhood you are innocent. If you explain to them they won't understand.]

Indian lady: [Indistinct]

Prabhupada: [Transl. You have to teach them Bhagavata dharma.]

What is Bhagavata dharma? Do you know what is Bhagavata dharma? Answer? Kaumara means young boy, and it is not that because he is young boy he will learn. He has to be taught. That same Bhagavata dharma the Supreme Lord is teaching. That I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead,

This is Bhagavata dharma. Otherwise for the Supreme Lord what need is there to declare sarva dharman parityajya? There is no other dharma. The only dharma is Bhagavata dharma.]

Indian lady: [Transl. They have to be taught.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. That's why I said that first you learn then they will preach.]

Indian lady: [Transl. There are so many [indistinct]]

Prabhupada: So many [indistinct], that's all right, But if you want to preach Bhagavad-gita, you have to do like that.

Indian lady: [Transl. There are so many… just like Caitanya Mahaprabhu was there. Someone else may come also. How can you say that…-yelling]

Prabhupada: [angry] I don't say Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I say Krsna. Why you misunderstand? Don't talk like that. I don't say that. Why you have misunderstood? Don't disturb in that way. I don't say Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Why you are bringing Caitanya? You are bringing. I say what Krsna says, you do that.

Indian lady: I said there are so many leaders…

Prabhupada: So why you shall go to so many leaders? Why not go to the supreme leader, Krsna?

Indian lady: They wanted same what Krsna said.

Prabhupada: If you explain, that is another... But interpretation I am speaking.

Guest: The difference between interpretation and information…That is the basic symptom of it. And I think he made it clear that as far as interpretation of Gita is concerned that should not be done. They should take Gita as such by itself and our thinking should not be imposed on Gita's teaching or what Krsna is saying. Explanation off course we can do, but we go to the people or we go to public. That is his point of view. That very well put and said. But then Svamiji we have little time we want your guidance that is regarding…

Prabhupada: That guidance is already there. What Krsna says, you say.

Guest: No, that is all right. Not to go further. As in organization level as we told you what we had discussed this morning we want to know your views on those points.

Prabhupada: Now what is the first point?

Jagadisa: "To collect all available materials and survey all institutions in India and abroad who are doing work based on Bhagavad-gita so that we will have completely up-to-date library."

Prabhupada: So I say what is the need of collecting? What Bhagavad-gitas you have got?

Guest: For information.

Prabhupada: Information... Bhagavad-gita, take information from Bhagavad-gita. What others have said you have nothing to do.

Guest: Now, for example, we should have all the literatures published by you. We should have all the literatures on Gita published by The Hare Krsna Movement.

Prabhupada: Then there will be no limit. There are so many, 600,000 interpretations. Then your life will be spend [indistinct] for collecting.

Devotee: If I want to go to Bombay, I must have the correct timetable, not a false timetable.

Prabhupada: Therefore I say, what Krsna directs, evam parampara praptam imam rajarsayo viduḥ [Bg 4.2]. Parampara means to hear the truth from the spiritual master. You take this. Krsna... Arjuna accepted, when he was puzzled whether to fight or not to fight, he accepted Krsna as guru. Sisyas te 'ham: [Bg 2.7] "Now I don't want to talk or argue with You," because as soon as you become a sisya you have to accept the statement of the guru. That is the relationship between guru and sisya. You cannot talk with guru on the same level. Whatever guru says, you have to accept. Otherwise don't accept guru. Don't make a fashion of making guru just like you keep a dog. Guru, first of all you have to select the guru. Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya [Bg 4.34].

You have to select such a person where you can fully surrender. So Krsna is accepted by Arjuna like that. Sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam [Bg 2.7]. I am prapanna "I have surrendered to You." This is the first instance [instruction?]. That means whatever He says, and at last He says, sarvam etad rtam manye yad vadasi [Bg 10.14]. This is the position. Not that you make cut and trim. That is the process. Here is the parampara. Krsna is speaking Arjuna, and Arjuna is accepting, sarvam etad rtam manye yad vadasi. There is no clip and trim. "Whatever You have said." Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg 10.12]. "You have said that You are the Supreme, parabrahma. I accept it." This is parampara.

So we have not seen Krsna talking, but the words are there. So Arjuna has accepted Krsna as the para brahma. I accept Krsna as the parabrahma. That is guru-parampara. So first of all we have to accept by the parampara system. Sa kaleneha yogo nastaḥ paran-tapa. "That parampara is now lost," Krsna says. "Therefore I am speaking to you again age-old philosophy. Puratana." Not that new. Puratana. And now you take. How Arjuna has accepted? Arjuna said, sarvam etad rtam manye [Bg 10.14]. [Transl. No. No. Whatever whimsically I am thinking I will accept, and rest I will chop, trim and throw away.] That is not Bhagavad-gita study. You take parampara system, you try to understand Krsna as Arjuna has understood. That is parampara. Otherwise it is futile. There is no meaning. But if anyone has accepted the parampara system as Arjuna has understood, then he can speak on Bhagavad-gita. Otherwise he has no right to speak anything on the Bhagavad-gita. That is parampara system.

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. Yes. You are through to the point. Tell other points. What about others? Example, holding an all- India Conference that people should gather together…]

Prabhupada: But All-India Conference, it is not for mass understanding. Krsna said yad yad acarati sresthaḥ. Sresthaḥ people, the leaders of society, rajarsayo. Not ordinary politicians. Raja and rsi, he must be just like Maharaja Yudhisthira, Maharaja Pariksit, Lord Ramacandra, Maharaja Ambarisa. They are rajarsi. They are saintly persons, but they are governor. Such persons should understand. Yad yad acarati sresthaḥ tad tad evetaro janaḥ [Bg 3.21]. If the srestha person understands Bhagavad-gita, it is not for the mass understanding. Because,

It is not for ordinary understanding. You cannot make a mass meeting and pass resolution and you'll understand Krsna. It is not like that. Workers must be also very sresthas, not ordinary workers. He must understand Krsna. Then he can preach. If you talk foolish, what kind of preaching? That is not the way. So if you want to preach Bhagavad-gita, find out the sresthas of the country, sit down and try to understand. Not that at mass conference-big meeting, and people…resolution passed and everything is done. That is not the way. Select! Just like we all selected gentlemen and we talk. If you understand, then you can preach. But if you do not understand what is Bhagavad-gita, how to understand Bhagavad-gita, what is Krsna... And Krsna says that,

So to understand Krsna is not so easy job. First of all one has to become siddha. And not only you become siddha, yatatam api siddhanam [Bg 7.3], even one is siddha it is very difficult for him to understand tattvataḥ. What Krsna means, to understand, it is not so easy job. And again He said, He explains that bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55].

Only the devotees can understand. It is not the business of the karmis, jnanis, yogis. He has strictly specified, bhaktya. Bhakto [Bg 4.3] 'si priyo 'si. [Bg 18.65] When He wanted to instruct Arjuna... Arjuna was a householder, a ksatriya, not even a brahmana, not a Vedantist. The question may be why He selected Arjuna to preach Bhagavad-gita, which is so old and scientific. That Krsna says: bhakto 'si. "Without being bhakta nobody can understand Me." Bhagavad-gita. And again He confirms, bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvataḥ. If we interpret Bhagavad-gita in a different way, karma, jnana, yoga, you'll never get Krsna.

So these things are there. So to understand Bhagavad-gita one has to become a devotee, pure devotee. Not because he's learned scholar, he's a big politician or a big yogi or big jnani. No. that is not…Because He plainly says, bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvataḥ [Bg 18.55]. If you do not understand Krsna tattvataḥ, what He is, then it is natural you'll interpret in your way, your own philosophy. That is not the teachings of Bhagavad-gita. It will be jnana, yoga, karma, or other things.... But it is not Bhagavad-gita. You have to receive it through the parampara system. The parampara system is clear. As Arjuna understood, you have to take it. And if you preach, that will be effective. Please come in.

Sriman Narayana: We will have to study deeply your books.

Prabhupada: These are the preliminary points.

Sriman Narayana: The basic idea is quite clear what you said. People accept it or not but your idea is clear.

Prabhupada: No. It is not my idea. It is authentic idea. If you say my idea, then I become one of you. [laughter] So I don't want that. I say I am foolish man. I have no idea. Whatever Krsna says, that is idea. That's all. Just like a child, he speaks the words of his father. If the father... The child asks, "Father, what is this?" The father says, "This is a stick." So if the child says, "Sir, it is a stick," so that is correct. He may be a child; because he repeats the words of the father...

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. We have discussed the interpretations separately in a round-about way.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Round-about cannot be.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. Svamiji, I have one request. May the yoga of Gita prevail in the lives of all people.]

Prabhupada: If you don't introduce Bhagavad-gita then the foolish civilization is already ruined and will ruin.

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. In every field whatever one may be engaged in he should get the benefit of Bhagavad-gita.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. If a worker says, "Explain me Bhagavad-gita." No. It is specially meant for rajarsis or the head of the Government. He should be incharge. Then he can order. And people must follow. Just like previously it used to be. The order of the king. The king must be correct. Then his order would be correct. But if the king is a rascal then what is his order.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. That means there is no place for Bhagavad-gita at present day.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. So much scope is there. See in the foreign countries so many Bhagavad-gitas are distributed that they are now afraid that our present civilization will be ruined.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. Where are the kings?]

Prabhupada: Not kings, public. Now it is democracy. If the people are fools and rascals, then the king will be fool and rascal. Sva-viḍ-varahostra kharaiḥ samstutaḥ purusaḥ pasuḥ [SB 2.3.19]. [Transl. It is stated in the Bhagavata that the democracy is nothing but a bunch of sva-vid-varahostra kharaiḥ samstutaḥ purusaḥ pasuḥ. Sva means dog. Vid-varaha means hog. Sva-viḍ-varaha, ustra means camel. And khara means ass. These kinds of persons have elected a king. Then what do you expect? Dog is another animal. What benefit will be there?]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. My appeal is that during the time when Gita was spoken, there was a proccedure, there were sages, demigods and so on, but now that system is no longer in practice.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. For that you have to convince people. This is no argument.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. Can ordinary people have access to Gita's instructions or not? That's the question.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. There is no need for ordinary people.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. No need. Then the condition of people will remain as it is today? Corruption, lie, adultery--will go on?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Ordinary people have a leader.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. Nowadays everybody is a leader.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Then the condition is chaotic. No need of preaching Gita then. Actually the leaders…Just like you all are leaders. So you understand first then you preach to others. That will be effective.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. You are right that if some persons understand it then they can preach to others.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. The leaders. They should know what is Gita? What is the procedure to understand it? He can preach. Therefore the Supreme Personality of Godhead said imam rajarsayo viduḥ [Bg 4.2].

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. If the preacher is qualified, if he has practiced and realised it in his own life then he can preach. Not everyone can do it.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. The point I am making is that you all leaders and politicians of the country understand it first then you preach it to others. Then it will be fruitful. Not that anyone comes and makes his own interpretation. No.]

Guest (1): [Transl. Only someone qualified can preach and not persons like us.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. No. If people close their ears with ear-plugs then how would they hear? The Supreme Lord Himself has said, mattaḥ parataram nanyat. [Bg 7.7] Krsna says "There is no one superior to Me." Let them understand. Is it true or not. The Supreme Lord declared,

[Transl. There is no superior authority than Me. Now the leaders should understand and accept that there is no greater authority than Him. That's all. Just see even a woman can understand it. Just see! I tell you there is no difficulty at all in this. We are determind that we won't preach what Gita says, we will simply speculate. The problem was "I am very learned, I am a big politician so whatever I say is correct." What was the benefit?]

Guest (1): [Transl. Krsna said in Bhagavad-gita, He is seated in everyone's heart and He gives remembrance…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. So when He gives remembrance then when He says mattaḥ parataram nanyat, then why don't you accept it? The Supreme Lord is saying that there is no one superior to Me, do you accept it?]

Guest (1): [Transl. Certainly.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Then accept. Then there is no question of argument.] If you accept Krsna as the Supreme, then where is the question of interpretation? [Transl. There is none poorer than he who interprets. mam hi partha vyapasritya... [Bg 9.32]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. We had a good discussion by the way. And your response was clear. Should we end it now? We have to go somewhere also. So we are very grateful that you kindly came here.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. This is my duty. You are trying to preach Bhagavad-gita so…]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. By meeting together like this we come to know many things. Yesterday I saw. I didn't know about your health condition. Much benefit is derived by meeting all together.]

Prabhupada: But who accepted? This is a fact. You try to understand that before me for two hundred years so many svamis, yogis went there-not a single man became Krsna conscious.

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. We are really astonished.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Try to understand that at least.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. I noticed yesterday. Is it there today?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. This is the simple path. What benefit will there be by giving up the simple path and and talking nonsense?]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. Vrndavana…New Vrndavana is very beautifully arranged. In India also, in Vrndavana you made a great establishment.]

Prabhupada: In Europe, America I have got so many branches and about nine farms. [Transl. Go-raksya program I have introduced there ten years ago in Europe. They are very happy. Thay are very happy. Live in the village. Protect cows. Produce your own food. This is not my introduction. The Supreme Lord Himself says, annad bhavanti bhūtani, [Bg 3.14] All living bodies subsist on food grains.]

Produce foodgrains. To produce food grain it is necessary to arrange cow protection. krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam [Bg 18.44] They are very happy there. They say that we don't feel like going back to the nasty city. Their city life and our city life is different. There is no facility in our city life. Even their better standard of city life they don't like.

Guest 1: That's why they don't like you anymore. Because you just draw them away from city life.

Prabhupada: That's why they accuse me that Svamiji is brain washing. They are not saying, their parents are saying. They have already become distracted. I have destracted them in such a way that they will never go back home. That's why they accuse. For example, this boy, even if you give him one lakh rupees he will not go back to his parents.

Sriman Narayana: Their parents hire hooligans to kidnap them.

Prabhupada: Yes, They have taken some devotees away, but they came back. This happened just recently. This is going on practically you understand. Therefore I want all of your co-operation. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission is that bharata-bhūmite haila manusya-janma yara One who has taken birth in the land of Bharata or India, what is his duty? janma sarthaka kari' kara para-upakara. To do good to others. It is not the duty of the people of India to exploit others. This is India's duty. Para-upakara. Janma sarthaka kari.. first make your own life perfect and then preach. If you yourself is in darkness then what will you preach? This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's mission. Again He says amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa, live wherever but become a guru. So the question will arise that I don't know anything, I am uneducated, so how can I become a guru? You have ordered. So the answer is, you just have to do this yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128]. That's all. You become a guru. There is no need to find a big leader. One who imparts Krsna's instruction to others, he is a leader. But one who changes and adds things to Krsna's instructions or trims and clips them he is not a guru.

He is not teacher, he is cheater. Why should you change Krsna's words? That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu: yare dekha, tare kaha 'krsna'-upadesa [Cc Madhya 7.128]. Don't manufacture. What Krsna has said, you say. Just as a child he can say, "This is a stick." "How you have learned?" "Father said." That's all. It is a stick. That's a fact. [Transl. What is the difficulty in that? What is the need of so much study? You simply repeat what Krsna said. That's all. That will be effective.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. The same kind of temple you are constructing in Vrndavana and other places you bring here also.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Here it is like there is a saying in Bengali, kane diyechi tulo, pithe behdhechi kulo, yata kilobi kilo. What you call that thing with which you clean rice paddy?]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. Winnowing-platter or tray.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I have tied a winnowing-platter on my back, and inserted cotton into my earholes. Now you can beat me and talk to me as much as you like. Nothing will happen. We have become so stubborn atheists it is very difficult to talk.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. People in the western countries…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. They are simple minded and not crooked like here. Here you go on speaking. We have blocked our ears with cotton. We won't hear.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. They are taking lessons now.]

Prabhupada: No. Willfully they are cheating I must say. Willfully.

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. As per our discussion till now we will suggest all our co-institutions to keep in mind this Krsna Consciousness, try to popularised it and issue a separate statement. Your views are clear.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. There is no need of other's advice. Just follow what the Supreme Lord is saying. No need of this and that.]

Sriman Narayana: [indistinct]

Prabhupada: [Transl. One who is not surrendered to the Supreme Lord, what will he instruct? That is useless gossip.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. One who has not practiced himself in life…]

Prabhupada: [Transl. And to understand the Lord, the Lord Himself is saying, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg 18.55]. He didn't say… bahūnam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg 7.19]

Guest 1: [Transl. It is very kind of you that though you had to go from Honolulu to New York, but for the conference you agreed to come here from Honolulu and go to New York later.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. By the Lord's mercy I have no problem in traveling around the world. Whenever I travel I purchase a world round trip ticket. And a round trip ticket costs 16,000 rupees.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. Round trip?]

Prabhupada: [Transl. Yes. And at least 5 to 7 persons travel together. That's almost 1 lakh of rupees. Within ten years I have travelled 15 times all over the world.] Although I started this business with forty rupees. [laughter] [Transl. You all are big, big businessmen. You would know the worth of that amount.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. We have to learn how to start a business with forty rupees and expand it rapidly in only few years.]

Prabhupada: Yes. When I went to New York they allowed me only forty rupees. You take it. [Transl. That forty rupees I didn't spend. When I returned to Palam airport New Delhi they took that forty rupees as tax. Otherwise it remained with me. So the Supreme Lord gives. That's a fact. Now this Mr. Alfred Ford, he is my disciple. He told me "I have got thirty million dollars, you can take it any time you want." I have no dearth of anything by the grace of the Lord.]

Sriman Narayana: [Transl. Now you may be having your meal etc.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. I take my lunch at 1:30 P.M.] [end]