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May 9, 1977, Hrishikesh
Indian man (1): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: The thing is that we have to... Shall I speak in Hindi or in English? There are others...
Indian man (1): Most of us, we can follow in English.
Prabhupada: So we are trying to imitate the Western way of life, but it is not possible for us to do that. Our constitution is different, spiritual, and their is material. Now they should be combined. Our government, our people, they want Western way of life, say motorcar. So they can purchase motorcar from foreign countries. What is the wrong there? Why we should waste our energy for manufacturing? Similarly, India should produce agricultural products. They want... Just like England. There is no food, food grain. They have... Everything they have to import. Even vegetables, daily vegetables, they have to import. So United Nation on the basis of spiritual understanding... Isavasyam idam sarvam [Iso mantra 1]. Actually everything belongs to Krsna, or God, and we are His sons. Krsna never claimed that "Indians are My sons." Krsna said, sarva-yonisu kaunteya: [Bg. 14.4] "In every form of life the living entity, their mother is this material nature, and I am the seed-giving father." So on that basis the civilization should be established, and the instruction of Krsna should be followed by everyone, and they will be happy. That is the only way. Otherwise they'll suffer continually. They are suffering, and they will continue. (aside:) They have come to disturb. So that philosophy, Krsna consciousness, we are trying to distribute all over the world, and they are accepting. This is the first time in the history of the world that foreigners, they are becoming devotees of Krsna. Now, in the history of the world there was no temple outside India, neither devotee also.
Indian man (1): The entire credit goes to you, sir.
Prabhupada: Yes. From historical reference it is so, but it can go still farther, and in that way India's glories will be magnified. But unfortunately our leaders and government are callous. They do not know what is India's glory and how India's glory can be distributed. They are trying that India's glory will be magnified by imitating Western way of life. This is the defect. They can understand that the Western way of life has not given them actual happiness. Otherwise why these boys, they are coming to India? They are young boys, and they are coming from very respectable family, rich family, rich nation. They have no economic problem. They have not come here to earn their livelihood, as we go to England to learn something, technology, and earn our livelihood. They have not come here for that purpose. They have enough food, enough everything, material. They are hankering after some spiritual... So there are two sides. (aside:) Why you are reducing? So our leaders, rather, they are misinterpreting sastra, our leaders, and trying to mold it to the material way of life. This is the pity of the thing. Now you should reform them in this Krsna consciousness movement, and real United Nations will be formed. There will be no question of nationalism. In the Bhagavad-gita... Big, big leaders, they are reading Bhagavad-gita, but is there any word as "nationalism"?
Indian man (1): None.
Prabhupada: And big, big leaders, they are utilizing Bhagavad-gita for so-called nationalism. Why? There is not a single word as "nationalism." As Krsna says, sarva-yonisu kaunteya [Bg. 14.4]. Where is nationalism? There is no question of nationalism. So the difficulty is they do not understand even a line of Bhagavad-gita, and still, the so-called scholars, philosophers, politicians, they are advertising that "I am student." They do not understand even a line of... This is my challenge. What do you think? They do not understand. Even Gandhi did not understand, not a single line.
Indian man (1): Gandhi did believe in trusteeship theory.
Indian man (1): Gandhiji believed in trusteeship theory of Isopanisad.
Prabhupada: Trusteeship... Trustee... Who will be trustee? Who is trustworthy? All thieves and rogues? Who is trustworthy? Trustee is Krsna.
Indian man (1): Or He's the owner.
Prabhupada: Yes. So He's the owner, and if you follow Krsna, then you become trustee. You do not follow Krsna; you are unworthy of trusteeship. You interpret in a different way Krsna. Even sometimes you say that "Krsna is fictitious." Do you not do? Don't you say like that?
Indian man (1): No, not...
Indian man (2): Very passing reference he made once.
Prabhupada: Why? That means he does not know what is Krsna.
Indian man (3): Who made this reference? Who made this passing reference, where Krsna is...?
Indian man (2): Gandhi made...
Prabhupada: I don't speak especially of Gandhi, but there are so many. Everyone takes Bhagavad-gita and misinterprets in his way. Why? Boliye. Why they should misinterpret Bhagavad-gita? What right they have got?
Indian man: (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) So parampara, in the parampara system, the system remains in order. And that is our way of life. Our... We are in India. These men have come newly under Western education, but we have got parampara system, just like Ramanuja's parampara, Madhvacarya's parampara, Visnu Svami-parampara. Still there is, Sri-sampradaya, Madhva-sampradaya, Visnu Svami...
Indian man (1): Disciplic succession.
Prabhupada: Succession, yes. So Krsna says that the real truth is in the parampara system. You cannot take anything and misinterpret. Then it is lost. Suppose from the very beginning of my life I have been taught by my father that this is called dictaphone. Now, if I misinterpret in a different way, then it is lost. "Call a spade a spade." And Krsna very distinctly said that "Because that parampara system is now lost, I am again speaking to you." Puratana. Find out this word, puratana. Maya te 'dya yogah proktah puratanah. Why He is speaking puratana, not new definition? Boliye.
Devotee (4): Should I read, Srila Prabhupada?
sa evayam maya te 'dya
yogah proktah puratanah
bhakto 'si me sakha ceti
rahasyam hy etad uttamam
Prabhupada: This is the beginning.
Indian man (2): Fourth Chapter.
Prabhupada: Read it again.
Devotee (4): "That very ancient science of the relation..."
Prabhupada: No, no, that verse, sloka, you...
Prabhupada: Maya te 'dya yogah proktah puratanah. Now, Krsna never said, although in Bhagavad-gita yoga is spoken by Him, He never said that "Because now time has passed away, circumstance different, so I can say you in any way." There is no such foolishness. But these people, they speak Bhagavad-gita in a new way—more than Krsna. These rascals are more than Krsna. So we are guided by them. They think of themselves as more intelligent than Krsna. This is the difficulty in India. (Hindi) Vyasadeva says, bhagavan uvaca. (Hindi) Unnecessarily if one is proud without any qualification, he's a rascal. (Hindi) Or this is also said there, that bhakto 'si priyo 'si me [Bg. 4.3]. The system of Bhagavad-gita, it can be understood only by the bhaktas. Otherwise why He should select Arjuna as the perfect audience? Because Arjuna was not a Vedantist. He was grhastha, belonging to royal family. He was dealing in politics. So the so-called Vedantists and sannyasis, they are supposed to be student of Bhagavad-gita, but Krsna selected him not because he was a Vedantist... He was not even brahmana. He was ksatriya, politician, grhastha, not Vedantist, ordinary knowledge, but Krsna selected him. (aside:) Hm, don't do it.
Prabhupada: Bhakta means he must be a servant, sakha or father or conjugal lover. They are bhaktas. There are five rasas. So a bhakta is situated in one of them: santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya... That is Vrndavana atmosphere. So bhakta means either of them. Arjuna sakhye. By friendship Arjuna became perfect, by making Krsna as friend. Hanuman dasye. Vajrangaji, Hanuman, he, by serving Lord Ramacandra, the order... He was not even human being, animal, (indistinct), not very intelligent, but by giving service constantly, he worshiped with love. So as soon as you become a bhakta, you must be related with Krsna with some rasa, in some particular position. That is bhakta. So the point is that without becoming a bhakta, nobody can understand bhakta. A politician cannot understand. They simply make their artificial attempt to understand. They'll never understand. It is locked. Just like a bottle of honey. I give you, "Here is a bottle of honey," and if you, "Oh, it is honey. Let me lick up the bottle," so will you get the taste? So similarly, they are licking up the bottle, not inside. Rahasyam uttamam. They have no information. They are licking up bottle: "I am reading Bhagavad-gita." This is the position. For this reason our country has fallen so much. But it can be revived again. The things are already there. Bhagavad-gita is there. Krsna is there. The instruction is there. If you take it, then it will immediately change the face of the whole world, immediately, without difficulty. But we are so stubborn, doggish, that we don't. We manufacture. This is the... (Hindi) ...yesterday. We are standing against the stubborn, doggish mentality. We have got no difficulty, at the same time, very, very difficult task. No difficulty—if you accept Bhagavad-gita as it is, no difficulty. But you don't accept—there is great difficulty. In the foreign countries they are not stubborn, doggish. They accept what we say in the Bhagavad-gita. Therefore these young men, they have very easily become devotees. (Hindi)
Indian man (5): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) ...that why we shall misinterpret Bhagavad-gita? Krsna was less intelligent, that He left Bhagavad-gita to be interpreted by some rascal philosopher or politician? He was not intelligent enough to clear the idea? If Kuruksetra is meant "body," why you should bring in the name of Kuruksetra the bodily conception of life? What is this? Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavah, mamakah pandavah [Bg. 1.1]. Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre is still there. Why Kuruksetra should be interpreted as something else?
Indian man (1): You have cautioned that hither, in this translation.
Indian man (1): You have cautioned that hither, to read the Bhagavad-gita as it is.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is the way. And their purpose is that "Bhagavad-gita should be utilized for my rascaldom." This is going on. (Hindi) This is our mission. Don't manufacture nonsense. It will never be successful.
Indian man (3): This, all about Russian international...
Prabhupada: First of all, there is no question of nationalism. It is all bogus.
Indian man (3): No, that you have spoken. Our request is how best we can intimate the teachings of Gita in the spreading of this...
Prabhupada: It is already there. It is already there. You kindly take it.
Indian man (3): How to intimate in our daily life...?
Prabhupada: You understand. The difficulty is you do not understand even a line of Bhagavad-gita. Still, you say that you are student of Bhagavad-gita. This is difficulty.
Indian man (3): I see. Then how to understand it?
Prabhupada: It is there already. But you are blind. You are cheater. You see things, one thing, and you speak another thing. You are cheating. Now, in the beginning of the Bhagavad-gita, when Arjuna surrendered to Krsna as a student-sisyas te 'ham sadhi mam prapannam: [Bg. 2.7] "Krsna, there will be no utility by arguing. I know that I am not doing my duty. I am ksatriya. I am in the active field, and I am declining to fight. This is not good for me." Karpanya-dosopahata-svabhavah: "So I can understand that I am puzzled that how I can kill such enemies who are my family members? This is my problem." (aside:) Here is a monkey. (Hindi)
Indian man (3): There are two.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) (laughter) And we want to be happy. Tri-tapa-yantana,(?) three types of miseries, are always there. So Krsna, when took charge of teaching him, the first lesson was that "Arjuna, you have talked like a very learned man, but you are not learned."
"You are taking care of the body, which is a lump of matter, combination of five elements—earth, water, air, fire—and you are concerned with this nonsense matter. You have no information of the real thing. And you are talking as a learned...?" This is the first. And then He said that "Actual person is within the body." Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam... [Bg. 2.13]. So as we are changing body in this status, from childhood to boyhood, boyhood to youthhood, similarly, when you give up this body, you get another body. Tatha dehantara-praptih. So if you are destined to change your body, then where is your nationalism? (Hindi) If you have to change your body... Today you are Indian. Tomorrow you become Pakistani. Then again fight.
Prabhupada: This is going on. Today you are European. Tomorrow you become Indian. And today you are man; tomorrow you become a dog. If you have got love for your country, but your work is doggish, then you become a dog. And who cares for the "national" dog? The street dog and the... At night he takes charge of the street. Nobody has appointed him, but he takes charge, and whole night: "Gow! Gow!" If somebody, new man, enters the neighborhood, "I am in charge." You see? "Why you have entered?" So this is going on. "I am leader of this country." So what is this civilization? Krsna says that "I am the leader." He says, bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram, suhrdam sarva-bhutanam: [Bg. 5.29] "I am the leader. I am the friend, well-wisher of everyone." And if a dog says, "I am the leader. I am the well-wisher," so which way we shall go? I shall accept the dog as leader and well-wisher or Krsna? Boliye. A barking dog or Krsna?
Indian man (2): Naturally Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes. And He says, suhrdam sarva-bhutanam: "I can adjust things." So we are not taking. (Hindi) From all angles of vision, if you study Bhagavad-gita, everything is perfectly there. And if you take it seriously, you become happy in this life and dehantare. If you simply take, accept Krsna as He says, then what is result? Krsna says, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. Punar janma, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13], but one who has understood Krsna perfectly—it is not possible to understand Him, but as far as possible, as far as our knowledge is concerned—if we understand Krsna, then immediate result is that we are freed from the bondage of janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9]. So that is the real problem. We are solving problems, this problem, that problem, that... They are not problems. That is natural in this material world. Just like this fly is disturbing. This is not a problem because the fly is made for that purpose. How... You cannot stop him. You can protect yourself. It is not possible to stop him. This is not problem, how to drive away the fly. The real problem, Krsna says, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi-duhkha-dosanudarsanam, that you are in the cycle of birth, death... Tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. You get another life and you suffer. Again you get another life. This is your problem. So that problem, Krsna says, that "You can solve it. Simply try to understand Me." Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah, tyaktva deham [Bg. 4.9]. That is our business. But we are being deviated from the real business, and we are being engaged in so-called this ism, that ism, that ism. This is spoiling the whole thing.
This life, this human form of life, is meant for understanding the real problem of life and to solve it. This is the opportunity. And Krsna personally coming to instruct you, "You solve in this way." But we are so doggish, we will not take. What can be done? Then become a dog. Nature's law, you work. Karanam guna-sango 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu [Bg. 13.22]. If you remain doggish—you do not become human being—then, all right, you become a dog next life. Tatha dehantara-pra... Then take life of the street and "Gow! Gow! Gow!" Mrtyu-samsara-vartmani. This... For this purpose we request every one of you that you study Bhagavad-gita very seriously as it is, apply it in your practical life, and teach it to others. That is perfection. That is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's... He says that "You become guru, everyone." [break] You simply repeat. Don't misinterpret. Boliye. This is Caitanya Mahaprabhu's... Every one of you become a guru, not a bluffer, but a guru, real guru. "How real guru? What can be done? I have no qualification." Yare dekha tare kaha krsna-upadesa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128] "You simply take the words of Krsna and preach." Krsna says, mattah parataram nanyat [Bg. 7.7]. You simply repeat, "Sir, Krsna is the Supreme Being, God." What is the difficulty? Krsna says, "There is no superior authority than Me." You simply say, "Krsna is the supreme authority." That's all. Krsna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam... You preach, "Come here in the temple. See Krsna's Deity and always think of Him." Where is the difficulty? Now, these Europeans and Americans, what I have done to them? I have not given any bribe. I say, "Here is Krsna. He is God." They accept it, worship Him. Man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. Just if you cannot do anything, just offer one obeisances, namaskara. Any child can do. They have done it, and they are going ahead. (Hindi) Krsna-upadesa is there, perfect upadesa. (Hindi) As Krsna says, you try to assimilate it and distribute it. There is no diffi... (Hindi) Krsna says, mattah parataram nan... (Hindi) Eighty-four books, each book, four hundred pages, in ten years. And we are selling, collecting by selling books, five to six lakh of rupees daily in foreign countries. What is that qualification? We have tried to convince people that Krsna is the Supreme Being. Isvarah paramah krsnah [Bs. 5.1]. (Hindi) "The Supreme Being is Krsna." Isvarah paramah krsnah. (Hindi) Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah. Sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah [Bs. 5.1]. (Hindi) Form. Formlessness. Formless is another feature, but real feature is Syamasundara. Yam syamasundaram acintya-guna-svarupam.
santah sadaiva hrdayesu vilokayanti
yam syamasundaram acintya-guna...
The Govinda, Syamasundara, dvi-bhuja-muralidhara. Here is the Supreme Being. Take His instruction. Always think of Him. You become perfect. Where is the difficulty? (Hindi) Why do you create difficult position? This is going on. (Hindi) Surrender to Krsna, follow His instruction, and be happy. (Hindi)
Indian man (5): (Hindi)
Indian man (1): Shameless.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) "I don't care for you." (Hindi) Therefore Krsna says, mama maya. That means he's engaged, she's engaged for beating with shoes. But he cannot understand, although Krsna is coming personally to make him understand, paritranaya sadhunam [Bg. 4.8]. (Hindi) Mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. You surrender to Krsna; everything is finished. So it is up to you, whether you prefer to be beaten by shoes continually or you surrender to Krsna. That depends on you. (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Don't manufacture nonsense things. (Hindi) Rascaldom. "Simply surrender to Me." (Hindi) ...manufacture... (Hindi) ...ism, this ism, that ism, that ism. (Hindi) The Bhagavad-gita is spoken in the Battlefield of Kuruksetra. (Hindi) ...nonviolence... (Hindi) Dharma-ksetre kuru-ksetre samaveta yuyutsavah [Bg. 1.1]. The first word is (Hindi). And you want to prove it, nonviolence. (Hindi) ...rascaldom... (Hindi) The first word is used, yuyutsavah. (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) Violence required to keep the society in order. (Hindi) Who will give protection? Sab scientific. (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) "So don't trust woman and politician." This is Canakya Pandita. And she is both politician and woman. We have got Mahabharata, there is not a single instance... We had very, very great, qualified women. But they were in charge of state...? Very, very qualified women. You know. Na svatantratam arhati, striyah. For woman there is no independence. The Manu-samhita. They must stay under father, under husband, or under elderly sons. Three stages. Kunti...
Indian man (6): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: (Hindi) A young girl cannot go out without father's, mother's... She cannot mix with any other young man. Strictly prohibited. (Hindi) If you want to revive real Indian civilization or Vedic civilization for the good of the whole human society, take to Krsna consciousness. You'll be happy. There is no doubt. (Hindi) Why do you try to undo something which is spoken by Bhagavan, Vyasadeva? (Hindi) So how can you make nonviolence? (Hindi) Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. We are not following mahajana, but we are transgressing. (Hindi) (aside:) Bring. Bring cutting. Dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. And mahajanas are also mentioned,
svayambhur naradah sambhuh
kumarah kapilo manuh
prahlado janako bhismo
balir vaiyasakir vayam
(Hindi conversation) We want to become artificially rascal, mahajana. That is going on. (Hindi) Sarva-dharman parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "Whatever you have learned, forget." Mam ekam. Because he has become too much bewildered, He doesn't say anybody else. Mam ekam, word to the murkhas... Saranam vraja. (Hindi) (Hindi conversation) Avajananti mam mudhah [Bg. 9.11]. (Hindi with scattered English words) Why do you take Bhagavad-gita? The beginning, the first line, is yuyutsavah. Where is nonviolence? (Hindi)
Indian man (7): How can you fight a war and then be nonviolent at the same time?
Indian man (7): How is it possible to be nonviolent...
Prabhupada: Why you want nonviolence?
Indian man (7): They are talking so much about nonviolence...
Prabhupada: Just like here is a monkey. Is it not violence sometimes to drive away them? There will be attack, and you have to protect your... This world is not like that, that there is no... It is not Vaikuntha. It is material world. There will be attack. Even if you are not..., you are nonviolent, the others will be violent. Others will set fire in your house without any fault. They'll kidnap your wife. This is going on all over the world. You must protect yourself. (Hindi) How you can stop him? Thieves and rogues, even if you are nonviolent, they will come, take advantage. It is your duty.
Indian man (7): What is meant by nonviolence?
Prabhupada: It has no meaning.
Indian man (7): It has no meaning?
Prabhupada: Simply imagination, that's all. (Hindi conversation) (Hindi) ...proper use... (Hindi) This is the meaning. You cannot abolish it. That is not possible.
Indian man (8): What is to world Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence or...
Prabhupada: I do not wish to discuss nonviolen... But we are talking of philosophy, that you cannot stop violence. That is not possible.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yudhya ca. (Hindi conversation) There is some word; the meaning is not clear. Then you can suggest that "Meaning may be like this." But when it is clear, there is no, I mean to say, chance of interpreting.
Indian man (1): As, for example, vicara, those such words which requires some clarification or..., these can be interpreted...
Prabhupada: No, no, when it is clear, why it should be interpreted?
Indian man (1): No, for other words...
Prabhupada: Other words... (Hindi) ...that when it is clear-yudhya ca—then why should you interpret? The example is there in the Sanskrit grammar. Just like... The example is given, where interpretation required. It is said, example is given like, gangayam ghosa-pali, that "There is a neighborhood called Ghosha-pali on the Ganges." So then you can ask that "Ganga is water. How there is a neighborhood?" Then the interpretation: "Not on the Ganges water but on the bank." Then interpretation. But when it is clear that "On the bank of the Ganges there is a neighborhood called Ghosha-pali," then where is interpretation? Interpretation will be required when the meaning is not clear. Otherwise, if the meaning is clear, that is (Hindi), to interpret. But in Bhagavad-gita, in the first line, the word is used, yuyutsvah, "desiring to fight." So desiring to fight, they assembled; they must fight. So where is the question of interpretation? So prasadam ready or not?
Indian man (8): (Hindi)
Prabhupada: Hm? What is that?
Indian man (9): There is a big hall here.
Indian man (9): There is a big hall here where lot of people can come, because lot of people want to listen you.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation)
Indian man (9): It is only fifty steps, hundred feet, yes, not more than that.
Prabhupada: (Hindi) (Hindi conversation)
Prabhupada: You have shown our books to these gentlemen?
Prabhupada: Hm. You can show some of them. (Hindi conversation) Call him. You can perform kirtana here. That will... (Hindi conversation). So go to the hall and begin kirtana immediately. You can go. So you can go and have kirtana.
Indian man (8): But we can start here also.
Indian man (8): Here for some time...
Prabhupada: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. (kirtana begins) [break] Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. (Hindi) (end)
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