January 9, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupāda: That you'll find everywhere. There is no such thing.
Dr. Patel: Americans are more sophisticated. [break]
Prabhupāda: They are thinking like that.
Dr. Patel: The court's ruling like that, then it will be...
Prabhupāda: No, we have got our own fight. The thought-checking. "I am thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Why you are checking me?" This will be our defense. Do you think Kṛṣṇa-thinking is illegal and madness? Then you have to condemn the whole Hindu religion.
Trivikrama: Every religion.
Prabhupāda: No. Kṛṣṇa is taken as Hindu God. So I'm thinking of Hindu God. Why you are checking? [break] We are reading Bhagavad-gītā and killing Kṛṣṇa. This... Our national father is supposed to be a great devotee of Bhagavad-gītā, but Kṛṣṇa is killed. Why the government does not take it seriously? Gandhi wanted Bhagavad-gita as guide. Why they are not taking?
Dr. Patel: That is the Vaiṣṇava (Hindi).
Prabhupāda: That is all bogus. Bogus. Simply bogus. Politics. In Gandhi's āśrama I saw not a single Vaiṣṇava or Viṣṇu or Kṛṣṇa.
Dr. Patel: Photographs, you mean to say.
Prabhupāda: Yes. "He's Vaiṣṇava." Bogus.
Dr. Patel: He never visited any temple.
Prabhupāda: Bogus! Simply politics.
Dr. Patel: He wanted to kill(?) other Muslims and all other... Especially untouchable.
Prabhupāda: The people approached him that "Mahatmaji, you have got influence over the Muslims, why not stop cow-killing?" "I cannot touch on their religious principles." Just see. Cow-killing is religious? Their religious principle. If I say my father-killing, mother-killing is my religion, so Gandhi will say, "Yes, you can do that. Nonviolent." Kill nonviolent. This nonsense contradiction can be tolerated by the fools and rascals. That's all. That is... Nonviolence, at the same time cow-killing. This rascal, another rascal... You are observing Buddha-jayantī and daily cow-killing. As if Buddha, Lord Buddha, recommended cow-killing.
Dr. Patel: Buddhists all eat, are meat-eaters the world over.
Prabhupāda: Not a question of Buddhist. That is Christian, Hindus, everyone. Rascals. Lord Buddha, he was nonviolent, and this Jawaharlal Nehru was observing Buddha-jayantī and at the same time sanctioning cow-killing. What is that? Cow-killing. "What is wrong in eating meat?" He has said that. [break] ...advertising our movement. Everyone's asking, "What is this Hare Kṛṣṇa?" That is the whole American people. Even if one did not know, he is "What is Hare Kṛṣṇa?" And our books are selling, "What is this Kṛṣṇa book?" So indirectly they're advertising. [break] Their greatest shock that "Our people being taught 'No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication.' Then where is our civilization?" This is their greatest shock. Any sane man can understand that this Hindu culture is being forcibly introduced.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Must be. That is also the same person, meat-eating, how you can separate?
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Free. Freedom. We have cherished that type of freedom in our country.
Prabhupāda: No, they are thinking I am checking on their freedom. They eat meat. I say, "No, don't eat meat." So I am checking on their freedom. They'll take it in that way.
Jagadīśa: It's called a fool's paradise.
Dr. Patel: These people must have sort of a false sense of superiority also because of that.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is another point. India is becoming superior.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) I think that is more...
Prabhupāda: And her controlling this younger generation. That is another point of...
Dr. Patel: They're putting black man without any penny in his pocket, like that.
Prabhupāda: In 1971 many papers astonished how one Indian is controlling so many white men. There, our paper became surprised. They cannot control even one white man.
Dr. Patel: This type of mental, sort of makeup, has been created after the industrial revolution, because...
Prabhupāda: These German people have accused that "The old man is sitting in Los Angeles and he has engaged all these young boys and getting money from them." The German propaganda. They're thinking that way, that I have some mind control power, I engaged these young men and they're getting money and I am enjoying.
Trivikrama: Everyone judges others from their own standard.
Prabhupāda: They're surprised, the neighboring people around our temple, "How do you live so comfortably? You have got so many cars and so nice house." But they are working hard like hogs and dogs and we are getting money without doing anything. They are envious.
Trivikrama: We invite them to come and join us.
Prabhupāda: That they will not. Why there? Here also. They are envious for this Hare Kṛṣṇa, but when you call, "You come and live here," that they will avoid. They're envious of my opulence, and when I say, invite, "You come also and join," "No. I'll rot as hog. That's all. I prefer this hoggish life."
Trivikrama: And the she-hog.
Dr. Patel: This will create a sort of a turmoil...
Prabhupāda: It has already created.
Dr. Patel: ...America at this particular judgment.
Dr. Patel: It will create much more turmoil.
Prabhupāda: The more they create turmoil, the more we become famous.
Haṁsadūta: They say mind control and brainwashing, Śrīla Prabhupāda, but actually that is what you are doing. You are cleaning our brain and teaching us how to control our minds.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Our method is ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Yes, actually it is washing.
Dr. Patel: Brainwashing is very bad in India, not only in America but the whole world over.
Prabhupāda: I condemn everyone, that "You are all dogs and hogs." And United Nations a pack of dogs barking. That's a fact. And in Chicago I said, all women, "You cannot have freedom. You have got only thirty-four-ounce brain, and man has got sixty-four-ounce." I told them. So I became a subject of very great criticism.
Trivikrama: Women's liberation.
Prabhupāda: I denied, "No, you cannot have." I told them. One girl in the airship, she was seeing like (makes some gesture-laughter). I asked her, "Give me 7-Up." "It is locked now." So I frankly said that "No, no. You cannot have equal rights because your brain is thirty-four ounce." Actually that's a fact. Where is woman philosopher, mathematician, scientist? Not a single.
Dr. Patel: Apart from that, I mean, they are made for a particular mission.
Prabhupāda: How they can have equal rights? Up to date in the history there is not a single woman who is a great scientist or great philosopher or great...
Dr. Patel: Madame Curie was a...
Prabhupāda: All bogus. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: You are getting too harsh on them because...
Prabhupāda: No, no. How can I give you equal rights, because your brain is less substance.
Dr. Patel: We cannot degrade our mothers that way.
Prabhupāda: It is not degrading. It is accepting the actual fact.
Dr. Patel: These girls are misled, these American girls.
Prabhupāda: There is no history. There is no history. Just like Kunti's mother. She produced so many heroes, but she was not hero. She could produce heroes like Arjuna, like Bhima. But not that she becomes hero.
Dr. Patel: Mother can produce heroes...
Dr. Patel: How can anybody say?
Prabhupāda: That is... How you'll get the equal rights?
Prabhupāda: You can produce. That is another thing. A cook can produce foodstuff suitable for rich man, but that does not mean he is rich man.
Dr. Patel: You argue. (laughs)
Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, you told one story about the animals having a meeting and trying to become free from the control of (indistinct).
Dr. Patel: Our śāstras say (Sanskrit).
Prabhupāda: (Sanskrit) Everyone is (Sanskrit). That is according to his position. That does not mean equal. Kṛṣṇa Himself worshiped Sudāmā Vipra. That does not mean Sudāmā Vipra is as good as the Personality of Godhead. When Nārada was coming in Dvārakā, Kṛṣṇa immediately got down and... Nārada was smiling, "Just see the fun." But etiquette. Nārada never said that "I am better than Kṛṣṇa or equal to Kṛṣṇa." Never said.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone. Everyone knew their position. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is addressed by Arjuna, "Acyuta, You promised to drive my chariot, therefore I'm asking You. Don't forget. You never deviate from Your promise." Acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye rathaṁ sthāpaya me 'cyuta [Bg. 1.21]. "Don't forget that You are Acyuta. Don't think that I am Your servant, I am ordering." He knows that "I am servant of Kṛṣṇa. I am ordering Him."
Haṁsadūta: You were explaining to that reporter in Pennsylvania, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that actually this women's liberation is just a trick by the men.
Prabhupāda: Yes! It is trick by the men, yes.
Dr. Patel: How... Could you explain that?
Prabhupāda: Because if they remain free, they get young women free. That's rascal's man brain. That "You take freedom."
Dr. Patel: This is a third-class argument.
Prabhupāda: This is argument! This is argument. This is fact. These rascals keep these women unmarried to enjoy daily new, new young women, these karmīs, these rascals. There is club. There is club. These young women are paid for that topless, bottomless. You do not know.
Dr. Patel: No. I have never seen a girl naked. I refuse to...
Prabhupāda: I have... I know everything.
Haṁsadūta: Prabhupāda, you gave the example that what is the use of keeping a cow if you can get milk in the marketplace.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Cow-keeping is expensive.
Dr. Patel: Why keep a cow when milk is available. (laughs)
Trivikrama: It's a fact. The young men think like that.
Prabhupāda: They make pregnant and they go away. And this poor girl, either she has to kill the child or beg from the government, "Give me welfare; otherwise..." Is that freedom? These rascal woman...
Dr. Patel: This is freedom. Actually the government recognized...
Prabhupāda: Government means a set of rascals. But practical point of view the woman wants equal right. Equal rights they enjoy, and the woman becomes pregnant, and he goes away, the boy. And she has to kill the child or beg from the government. This is her freedom. And still, equal rights. Where equal right? The boy has gone away. You also go away? No. You'll have to carry the child. To get freedom you have to kill or you have to beg. And still she thinks, "I am free."
Dr. Patel: Such experience (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Rather we are giving freedom, that "Never mind you have got illegitimate son. Come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa."
Trivikrama: And by teaching them to be chaste...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And teaching "Don't do it again." That's all. We are giving. And they are happy. My Godbrothers criticize that "You keep women in the temple." I tell them, "I cannot reject."
Dr. Patel: I was also thinking like that, today, I mean, presence I said, that Vaiṣṇavas keep woman...
Prabhupāda: It is different situation. I cannot reject anyone.
Dr. Patel: No, that's right. You are right. But this is a great affecting the boys down here. After all...
Prabhupāda: But they are taught, "Don't be misled." But if they cannot, that (indistinct). I cannot deny. I cannot deny. I cannot say that "You are woman. You are condemned." I cannot.
Prabhupāda: That is personally as a sannyāsī, not that... He never said that women should be refused Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Dr. Patel: No. Nobody has said so. But they should not mix.
Prabhupāda: Here in the Western country it is their custom to mix, intermingle freely. How can I stop it? I may stop in my temple, but they will do it outside. So it is impossible.
Jagadīśa: Nowadays even in the universities, they allow the free mixing of boys and girls in the same dormitories. In the same dormitories.
Prabhupāda: Same room.
Dr. Patel: In the same dormitories they live together you mean. Girls have no separate...
Jagadīśa: Oh, yes. Free mixing.
Trivikrama: Same showers even. Bathroom the same.
Dr. Patel: Oh, were...
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa gives freedom. Striyo śūdras tathā vaiśyās te 'pi yānti parām. "Never mind. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Come on." Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa [Bg. 9.32]. "Anyone. Come on. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Take prasāda." This is my propaganda.
Dr. Patel: My mind is haunted by those (indistinct). There will be somebody...
Prabhupāda: I know that I sincere to Kṛṣṇa, He'll do the rest.
Dr. Patel: That is right. You have extreme faith.
Prabhupāda: Faith means extreme faith. Not reserved. Faith does not mean any reservation. What is that? Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. This is... Ananya-bhāk. No reservation. That is... Sādhur eva. He is sādhu. Whatever he does, it doesn't matter. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. He sādhu. Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ, bhajanty ananya-manaso [Bg. 9.13]. These are the words. Require staunch faithful devotion. Then you are perfect. Then doesn't matter what you are, what you are doing. Whether the real point is fixed up. Bhajate mām ananya-bhāk. Fifty percent, ten percent devotion...
Dr. Patel: Not even .001 percent reservation. I mean so far the bhakti's concerned. Bhaktya avyabhicareṇa.
Prabhupāda: That is. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhuyaya [Bg. 14.26]. Even in the Brahman platform. Not in the material platform. Sa guṇān samatītya. Sama-prakarena utītya(?). Cent percent utītya(?).
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupāda: Yes. This is credit.
Dr. Patel: This is credit, and this is also, I mean, that this should happen also...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the right movement. This is the test.
Dr. Patel: If all that...
Prabhupāda: Who cares for this Transcendental Meditation? They are not hogging any propaganda. It is coming this ear and going this ear. They don't care for it. So many others have gone. Who cares for them? They are not serious for Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because they know it is changing the whole civilization.
Haṁsadūta: There's that one verse you were saying, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that so many Brahmās may come and go...
Prabhupāda: Unless there is opposition, it is not genuine. It is not genuine or it is not serious. Opposition must be there. Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead—there is opposition always, from the very beginning of His birth.
Dr. Patel: Kṛṣṇa had all the opposition throughout His life.
Prabhupāda: Throughout His life. That means genuine Supreme Lord. Before His birth.
Dr. Patel: Before, yes. And after, He was cursed (indistinct).
Prabhupāda: Śiśupāla was His cousin-brother.
Dr. Patel: Cousin-brother. (Sanskrit) If you consider that, He rose against all odds. Greater the opposition, better you become.
Dr. Patel: You are right. With that extreme faith, Jesus took to the cross. Huh? [break]
Prabhupāda: That is the greatness of the movement. [break]
Dr. Patel: We will be meeting with all people in the whole world. And you will be...
Prabhupāda: Yes, I am the oldest.
Dr. Patel: (laughing) Keep in my hand and walk. And I would say, sir, that you also should not take bath in cold water.
Prabhupāda: No, I don't take. I... Since 1970, 1966, '67, I am not taking cold bath. Before that, even in America I was taking twice cold water bath.
Dr. Patel: I have never taken cold water in my life.
Prabhupāda: Shower I was taking.
Dr. Patel: All these boys take cold water, required from them.
Prabhupāda: I never used hot water. In India the Delhi is the coldest part. In my business life, in the hotel I was taking cold water. Everyone was surprised. "How you can?" In Saharanpur, in bitter cold, I was taking cold water early in the morning.
Dr. Patel: This will be extreme cold in river. I have taken bath in the confluence four or five years back. It was not winter, but then it was... It is cold throughout the year because snow melt and keep water very cold.
Dr. Patel: During the times of Moguls you have seen all the pictures with the flag.
Prabhupāda: That was the system. Our Pandit Jawaharlal was keeping one flag also, always.
Dr. Patel: But what prosperity India must have. Those people from Europe tried to find out India and went down there and found America. What prosperity they must have... What prosperity India must have then.
Prabhupāda: India can have prosperity even now if they take their own culture.
Dr. Patel: No, even material prosperity I mean to say, sir.
Prabhupāda: Material. Mind is also material.
Dr. Patel: Europeans came here for material prosperity.
Prabhupāda: If you want satisfaction of the mind, that is material. That is not spiritual. Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni.
Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. (Hindi) [break] Manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni. Mind and the senses, they're prakṛti-sthāni. They're not spiritual.
Dr. Patel: No, but, sir, if that is material...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mind is subtle matter. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir.... Bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. They are separated five material energies. Apareyam. They are inferior. Those who are in the mental platform, they are also inferior. The so-called philosopher, scientist and others, they are on the mental platform. Therefore they're inferior. Apareyam. These eight elements, those who are dealing with these eight elements, apara, inferior. And they are advertising that "We are superior." "The spiritual consciousness is brainwashed. We are superior." This is the fault. Of the inferior position, they are claiming superior position. Apareyam itas tu... And Kṛṣṇa is giving practical example: "Apareyam: this is inferior. Beyond this there is a superior nature. What is that? Jīva bhūta." Immediately. And still the rascal cannot understand what is superior, inferior. (Indian lady converses in Hindi with Prabhupāda) Chase after them, "Get out! Get out! Your visa is finished." (Hindi) Hundred cases. Hundred times hundred. (Hindi) [break]
Rāmeśvara: That is our argument.
Dr. Patel: It would be the brainwash. To have washed it against...
Prabhupāda: I am thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and if you stop me to think of Kṛṣṇa, is it not going against my thought? Bhagavad-gītā, it is recommended, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. So this is a standard thing. So I thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Why you should stop me? Is it not infringement my freedom?
Rāmeśvara: They argue that they are not stopping you from thinking about Kṛṣṇa. They want to stop you from being a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.
Prabhupāda: Why? If I have to think of Kṛṣṇa, I must be member of the society. Otherwise how can I think of? Suppose if I have to do business, share business, I have to become a member of the share market.
Rāmeśvara: They say that the way the society is managed...
Prabhupāda: You can say. But this is the system. If you have got some thought, you must mix with such similar thoughtful men. That is everywhere. The scholars, they associate; the medical men, they associate. How can you stop it?
Rāmeśvara: They don't think it's healthy.
Prabhupāda: They may think anything nonsense, but this is practically going on. The medical men, they make their association. Especially in your country, unless one is member of the medical association he cannot practice.
Rāmeśvara: But the medical association does not take up twenty-four hours.
Prabhupāda: No. Not only twenty-four hours, twenty-six hours.
Rāmeśvara: That is their charge, that it is too extreme. They say we isolate the devotees from the real world. We don't let them read newspapers, we don't let them...
Prabhupāda: That is your real world, but you do not know what is reality. Your real world is this body. But this body is not real. That, you rascal, you cannot understand. Your reality is this body, but body not real.
Rāmeśvara: Even if this world is not real, temporarily it's real.
Prabhupāda: Temporary, yes. So I am eternal. I must associate with eternity. Why shall I..., temporary. Suppose if somebody comes in India, American, that is his temporary residence. Why shall I accept India as everything? Similarly this body is another India or for Indian, American. It is temporary, asann, asat. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. This body is temporary. That you have no knowledge. Why shall I be attached to the temporary things? I am the owner of the body, I am reality, so I must realize myself. Self-realization. This is self-realization, that "I am not this body, I am pure soul, Brahman." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi.
Dr. Patel: Even Jesus said so.
Prabhupāda: Christ said that if getting everything one loses his own soul... What is that?
Trivikrama: "What is the value?"
Prabhupāda: "What is the value?"
Rāmeśvara: They would say that we are ignoring this world and retreating from it.
Prabhupāda: We must! We must! You rascal! You do not know the science.
Trivikrama: They have their retreats and monasteries, Christians also.
Prabhupāda: We must. That is the science. That is... You do not know, because your tail is cut you want others also to cut his tail.
Rāmeśvara: Their main charge is that we are deceptive. In other words, we tell people that we are like this, but actually we are different. They say we tell people we will make them more intelligent...
Prabhupāda: If you are different, how the professors and scholars, they are accepting our (indistinct), they're taking our books?
Rāmeśvara: They say that's all right, but you practice differently than your books.
Prabhupāda: No. Our book says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. We always think of Kṛṣṇa. We act according, strictly according to our books. That is our position.
Rāmeśvara: The book says that this is the highest consciousness. They say it is not complete, because it doesn't have anything to do with the real world.
Prabhupāda: But we say that you are rascals. That's all.
Dr. Patel: If they say we have nothing to do with real world, where does the real world go when they are sleeping? (indistinct) I think that you must go for that. No? We must find out the full according to their own folly, not according to our reason.
Rāmeśvara: Just... The example of their charge of deception is that we are the Hare Kṛṣṇas, but when we go to sell our books we are in disguise. Therefore people do not know that they are giving money to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So they say our whole movement is like that in many different ways; we are tricking people.
Trivikrama: No, but the priests nowadays, they don't always wear the collar, because they want to feel comfortable with the people. They dress...
Rāmeśvara: They say "If people knew you were the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they would not give you so much money."
Haṁsadūta: Even the police, in order to catch a criminal, they sometimes go in disguise. They act as criminals, in order to catch a criminal. So we also have to do that. We have to act like demons sometimes.
Rāmeśvara: (laughing) To catch a demon.
Dr. Patel: These boys are very clever. (laughs)
Jagadīśa: Vāmanadeva also went in disguise. And Kṛṣṇa, Bhīma, and Arjuna went in disguise. They killed Jarāsandha.
Haṁsadūta: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you wrote about Prahlāda Mahārāja, they tried to find out "Where are these Vaiṣṇavas? They must be coming in disguise to teach the boys Hare Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: What is the wrong there?
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) American gangsters. You can't be gangsters. They will be gangsters.
Dr. Patel: You can't be gangsters. There is some difference between them and you.
Rāmeśvara: This scholar from Harvard University, he's explained it very nicely. He says that today Christianity and Judaism are materialistic, and the people who follow those religions have misunderstood their own faith, and the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is reminding them. And it is the work of God.
Prabhupāda: How nice he has...
Rāmeśvara: His name is Dr. Harvey Cox. He is widely known all over the world as a leading Christian theologian. He has written many books. And he said that Christianity today is synonymous with profit, material gain, accumulation, performance, material success. So it has lost or it has forgotten its original message. And it takes something as exotic as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement from India to remind a Christian that there's another way of life, based on simplicity and truth and spirituality.
Prabhupāda: He's right. And he's a very important man.
Rāmeśvara: He has joined this society to defend us. He's now traveling different places in the United States to speak on our behalf.
Prabhupāda: He's serious gentleman. That is wanted. Kṛṣṇa will help us.
Dr. Patel: Aldous Huxley is another, he's also very...
Trivikrama: He's dead.
Dr. Patel: He is dead. No? He is dead? How long?
Trivikrama: Since 1962.
Dr. Patel: I had no idea of it. I am reading his books thinking he is still alive.
Trivikrama: Aldous Huxley.
Prabhupāda: Aldous Huxley. He is useless. Anyone connected with the Ramakrishna Mission is a useless. Immediately take it.
Dr. Patel: He was connected with Ramakrishna Mission.
Rāmeśvara: On one radio show they quoted from this Dr. Radhakrishnan that when you read Bhagavad-gītā you should not think that Kṛṣṇa is God. So then they say, "So even in India they reject this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." They say "Look, this is the president of India. He is saying do not take Kṛṣṇa as God."
Prabhupāda: So even in your own country, the priest talks crazily. We should reply that. Why do you go to India? In your country, your countrymen take it.
Rāmeśvara: Jesus was crucified in his own country.
Dr. Patel: By his own men.
Prabhupāda: There is a Bengali proverb (Bengali). In a village, if a saintly person comes from outside, he is invited. And if a saintly person there is in the village, nobody cares for him.
Trivikrama: Yes. The Bible says the same.
Prabhupāda: (laughs, repeats saying)
Dr. Patel: This will create some difficulty for your movement?
Prabhupāda: We don't care for it. We will go on. Caravan will pass. Let the dogs bark.
Dr. Patel: The dogs may bite.
Prabhupāda: No. Barking dog never bites. (laughter) They simply make their show. Neither they can bite. We shall go now? (end)
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