Prabhupada: Jnanam ca yad ahaitukam. (Hindi) Jnana and vairagya. (Hindi)

Guest (Indian man): (Hindi)

Prabhupada: (Hindi)

Hari-sauri: As soon as you become covered with some personal desire or endeavor for personal satisfaction...

Prabhupada: Nothing is his personal.

Hari-sauri: ...then you become designated.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is conditioned. The Vrndavana life means the gopis, the cowherd boys, the cowherdsmen, the elderly men, Nanda Maharaja, Yasodarani, his (her) status, every-cows, calves, trees, flowers, Yamunaeveryone is dedicated to Krsna. That is the Vrndavana. They have no other business. That is Vrndavana. Everywhere, the whole description of the Krsna book, center is Krsna.

Hari-sauri: Yeah, Krsna book's so nice.

Prabhupada: That is Vrndavana life, either in rasa dance or the cowherd's play or killing the demons or in dining and dancing. The friends are eating, they are being stolen by Brahmabut the center is Krsna. That is Vrndavana. All activities are going on, just like in other place. But here in Vrndavana, all activities centered around Krsna. When Brahma is stealing His friends, the center is Krsna. The demon is coming to destroythe center is Krsna. When there is forest fire, the center is Krsna. This is Vrndavana beauty. In happiness, in danger, in perplexities, in friendshipeverything Krsna. Kaliya-damana. "Oh, Krsna has gone to Yamuna. He has fallen down in the..., to fight the Kaliya." It is a very, what is called, calamity. But still, the center is Krsna. This is the beauty of Vrndavana. "Krsna has entered Yamuna to fight with Kaliya." It is not at all good news for mother Yasoda, Nanda, friends and family, not at all. Their life is lost. But still the Krsna is center. This is Vrndavana life. In everything Krsna is center, anything. We are having just like: "Krsna's a bad propaganda," opposition.

Hari-sauri: Somehow or other, Krsna's in the center. (laughs)

Prabhupada: I am happy that Krsna is center. That's all. This is the beauty of this movement. Although we are put into some difficulty, but center is Krsna.

Hari-sauri: The difficulty actually is increasing our thinking of Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. The papers are publishing, "Krsnas, they are bad. They are so on, so on, so on." That's all right. Krsna is center.

Hari-sauri: Yes, what you said this afternoon... Actually, I found out, one of the arguments that they're using... These deprogrammers, they're very clever. They've done a lot of research, because they're using that statement of Dr. Radhakrishnan's in the Bhagavad-gita, where he says that man-mana bhava mad-bhakto, "Krsna does not mean think of Him," they're using that against us to say that "This man Radhakrishnan was the president of India, and he says that the Bhagavad-gita is not meant for thinking of Krsna."

Prabhupada: Just see how much great harm he has done.

Hari-sauri: Yes. So now they're trying to use that to say that we are misinterpreting the Bhagavad-gita..

Prabhupada: But we don't say Radhakrishnan is authority. We take Caitanya Mahaprabhu as authority.

Hari-sauri: Now we have to prove now that Radhakrishnan was not an authority on the Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: Yes. He is not in the parampara system. You talk with Ramesvara like this.

Hari-sauri: Actually, by using the Bhagavad-gita, we can defeat their argument very easily anyway.

Prabhupada: Yes. That I've defended in every page, that "These rascals have used this." Where is Ramesvara?

Jagadisa: Coming. Srila Prabhupada, we've been talking about... [break]

Hamsaduta: I shave once a month.

Hari-sauri: Once a month on purnima.

Ramesvara: And our Adi-kesava, he has also grown out his hair for the court case and all the people. He's meeting the politicians.

Prabhupada: That's all right. But we are famous as shaven-headed. That is already advertised. Shaven-headed means Krsnas. So why should we relinquish this...

Hamsaduta: Trademark.

Ramesvara: It has made us famous. That's a fact.

Trivikrama: Yes, it means a monk. In the Far East at least, shaven head means monk.

Prabhupada: Yes. Shaven-headed. These Buddhist monks, they are shaven-headed.

Hari-sauri: Even in the West they shave their heads. And they look something like that.

Prabhupada: Well, there was some income tax office pleader. So I have given the idea that "The fifty percent, that is promotion expenditure." So he accept..., "Yes, it can be done." Where is the profit? Whatever is profit is promotion expenditure. We give to ISKCON commission, or some way or other, it is spent. So he admitted, "Yes, it can be done." And last night I was suggesting, "For promotion spend." Even if we open a temple, that is promotion.

Jagadisa: Profit means that people are putting money in their pocket and enjoying. And we don't.

Prabhupada: But we're not. No. If we open a center, that is propaganda center. Why do you say "temple"? But this is the way of propaganda.

Jagadisa: Opening a new branch.

Prabhupada: Do you follow?

Ramesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So it is promotion for the books. Whatever we do, it is promotion. That's all. And the main point is that it is not profitable, er profit concern, because you are not giving any royalty to the author. So where is his profit-making? Nobody's making profitthe author, the worker, everyone.

Trivikrama: That's a fact.

Prabhupada: That's a fact. So all expenditurepromotion, that's all. The cost of paper, cost of printing, cost of promotionfinished everything. Make account like that. The income tax father will not touch it.

Hari-sauri: Everything we're doing is propaganda work, everything.

Prabhupada: That's all. If still there is excess, give some bonus to the grhasthas bhaktas. They're family men. Let them have some expenditure.

Jagadisa: Some wage.

Prabhupada: Yes. Finished all... No account. So they admitted, both of them, "Yes, sir, that is... That can be done."

Trivikrama: You're a genius.

Prabhupada: (laughs) And our Gopala, he is going three times and to"How to do it?" Do it like that. Everything spend for promotion. Bas. No money. And actually, that is the fact. Where is the profit, and who is going to take the profit? Nobody is there.

Hari-sauri: We're not opening our temples for a comfortable place to live.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Trivikrama: Sleep on the floor.

Jagadisa: There's no sense gratification.

Prabhupada: That I was explaining, that what is Vrndavana life. In Vrndavana life there is everythingthe cowherds boy, the calves, the cows, the elderly person like Nanda Maharaja, Yasodamayi, friend. What is their aim? The aim is Krsna. The demons... (laughter) Everything is Krsna. The demon is coming there. That is also... Center is Krsna. And gopis are dancing. That is also... Center is Krsna. And Brahma is stealing the friends and cows. That is also center Krsna.

Trivikrama: Now we are also getting the demons.

Prabhupada: That is Vrndavana life. When everything is Krsna, that is Vrndavana life. Why Vrndavana life is so exalted? Because they have no other shelter except Krsna. The whole book Krsna is therefore center Krsna. That's all. But there are many varieties of activities.

Hari-sauri: There's ninety chapters there. That's a drop in the ocean.

Prabhupada: Every page, the center is Krsna. Not only the Krsna book. All our books-Caitanya-caritamrtathe center is Krsna. Bhagavata, the center is Krsna. Bhagavad-gita center is Krsna. Nectar of Devotion, the center is Krsna. This is Krsna consciousness. Similarly, our, this book, the center is Krsna. When we open a temple, the center is Krsna. In this way manage, promotion. All spend for promotion. Then the income tax will not be able to touch your hair, what to speak of your body. (laughter) So now our counterpropaganda is going on. The center is Krsna. Big, big Krsna's name are coming: "These Krsna people," "These Krsna devotees," "This Krsna center"that is our triumph. What is that?

Trivikrama: There is a letter.

Prabhupada: Letter from?

Ramesvara: I was mentioning it this morning. We intercept their newsletters.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Ramesvara: They are simply talking about Krsna.

Prabhupada: (laughs) That is our triumph.

Ramesvara: They're in a Kamsa-sampradaya.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Following the example of Kamsa, unfavorable meditation on Krsna.

Prabhupada: Yes. But that will also do benefit.

Trivikrama: Their center is Krsna also, only they're demons.

Ramesvara: These are receipts, Srila Prabhupada, each one for two thousand dollars deposited in your account in Los Angeles.

Prabhupada: That is rent tax.

Ramesvara: Yes. We already entered that. Both times from Balavanta in...

Prabhupada: You enter. Enter this.

Hari-sauri: Two from Balavanta, two from Rupanuga.

Prabhupada: Debit.

Hari-sauri: Yes.

Ramesvara: This is from an organization called "Committee Engaged in Freeing Minds." Freeing the mind. That is their name. And this is sent out all over the United States. It says, "Confidential. Not for publication."

Prabhupada: (laughs) And it is out to the enemies.

Ramesvara: In capital letters it says, "HELP PUSH THE HARE KRSNA COURT ACTION. There are two legal cases in progress..."

Prabhupada: Chanting Hare Krsna. Jaya Krsna.

Ramesvara: "There are two legal cases in progress at this time that we must supportone in New York and one in Los Angeles. In New York the two ISKCON leaders have been indicted by the Queens County Grand Jury for unlawful imprisonment and attempted grand larceny. In Los Angeles, ISKCON and Madonna Slavin have accused her family of kidnapping, and charges of unlawful imprisonment have been entered against the mother and several other members of the Slavin family and two friends." These two friends are the professional deprogrammers. Then it says, "As in nearly all of these cases, the media will greatly influence the outcome. Do not underestimate the power of the media. We therefore must tell our story..."

Prabhupada: Krsna's already become media.

Ramesvara: "We must therefore tell our story to them in great number, and in this way the world will hear of it. As of this date, HK," short for Hare Krsna...

Prabhupada: They're chanting Hare Krsna. (laughter) They're chanting Krsna. Yes.

Ramesvara: They say, "As of this date, Hare Krsna has been able to flood both the media and the District Attorney's offices with support for their side..."

Prabhupada: They're admitting. That's good.

Ramesvara: "...and they are way ahead of those on our side who believe that it is not a religious issue. Sun Yung Moon"this is that Reverend Moon"has been largely exposed in the Press. But not the Krsnas."

Trivikrama: Haribol.

Prabhupada: So the more they expose, the more implicated. (laughter)

Ramesvara: "Most people think of them, if at all, as loving, peaceful, prayerful children with strange customs and dress but low-key action and behavior."

Prabhupada: What is that behavior, low...? Lowky?

Trivikrama: Low key.

Ramesvara: Means not violent.

Hari-sauri: Nice people.

Prabhupada: That's a fact.

Ramesvara: "But they do not know about their forceful, harassing solicitation..."

Prabhupada: They know.

Ramesvara: "...begging tactics."

Prabhupada: We do not know.

Ramesvara: They say that most people do not know how aggressive we really are. "Most of the families with young people involved with Hare Krsna..." [break]

Prabhupada: ...very important letter.

Ramesvara: We sent this to all the temples in America.

Prabhupada: Yes. And give me one copy. I shall keep.

Ramesvara: This is for you.

Prabhupada: All right.

Ramesvara: This is all based on the information received by various parent groups. "These people usually fear physical harm that may come to them and to their children who are in Hare Krsna, as well as forcibly permanent separation from their children in Hare Krsna."

Prabhupada: They do not know what is meaning, liberation. This is liberation, forcely separating from maya. That they do not know. mayam etam taranti te. Yes.

Ramesvara: "Hare Krsna is known to hide out those whose families want them out."

Prabhupada: Family?

Ramesvara: If the family wants them out, we have a reputation that we will hide them, so the family cannot get them. "One example is in the Queens case." That's Adi Kesava Maharaja. The charge of attempted grand larceny stems from an alleged extortion attempt against the Shapiro family by the temple leaders who wanted money from the parents and threatened to harm their son..."

Prabhupada: This is false.

Ramesvara: "...unless the money was given."

Prabhupada: This is false.

Ramesvara: This is false, completely false. "One of the things we can do is give moral support to these families. How better to do it than to show your support by writing to the..."

Prabhupada: This we can bring a charge against them: "Prove that we wanted money."

Ramesvara: Yes, we are counter... We are fighting them. "...by writing to the District Attorney's"those are the Justice Department Offices"or contacting your local media." Then they give the addresses of people in New York and two addresses in Los Angeles who you should write to telling them about all the knowledge you have about all the abuses of Hare Krsna. Then it says, "You should commence action for a legal deprogramming. If other families of Hare Krsna victims would go to court to get a legal conservatorship or guardianship with an intended writ of habeas corpus..." Now, what this means is you go to the court, and you say "My dear judge, my son is in Hare Krsna. He has been brainwashed." And you have a paper from a psychiatrist that says, "Yes, he is definitely acting in a robotlike way." Then the court will say, "All right, you're the parent. So we give you legal guardianship over the son."

Prabhupada: No, we can place a counter psychiatrist and counter... Just like Cox's statement.

Ramesvara: There is one law in America where they don't even give you a chance to defend. They immediately give the parents the guardianship. Now, this law was written to protect old people, and they are cheating and using the law against us. Sometimes old people become senile, and, let's say, they'll do harmful things. They may give away their money. They may do things in a state of...

Prabhupada: But we have got parents' organization also.

Ramesvara: Now we do. Anyway, they're using this law against us.

Prabhupada: That they will do. They will do their best. We have to do our best. That's all.

Ramesvara: They say, "This would enable the court to remove the young person from the temple for medical examination and evaluation by cult-knowledgeable psychiatrists and psychologists." In other words, deprogramming. "This is the best thing to do. The media would report it..."

Prabhupada: No, no. But one psyciatrist may give one verdict, but other psychiatrist may give another verdict. Then how the court will decide?

Ramesvara: Because in these temporary guardianship cases, the court is already against us in many places.

Prabhupada: But... Against may be, but so far the decision of the psychiatrist, we can present our psychiatrist.

Ramesvara: There's no equal time given. It's one-sided only.

Prabhupada: That means in the name of justice, injustice is going on.

Ramesvara: Yes. This law is unconstitutional. I mentioned that there is a group of lawyers who are now organizing a committee nationwide to defend us, and they're going to prove that this law should be changed.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the right cause. Yes.

Ramesvara: They're already working on that. So then they say, "If you can do this to your son, then it will get national news media into the scene, and then people will learn about Hare Krsna in particular, and all the effects of destructive cults on our youth." Then it says, "We have a legal packet which contains advice on the procedure and techniques for legal deprogramming."

Prabhupada: So nowhere they have mentioned my name. That is good. (laughter) Otherwise, I would have been the target. That was very dangerous.

Ramesvara: Sometimes... One of the general charges they make against all the different religious groups in America is that the leader is actually making a lot of profit for himself.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Like this Reverend Moon, he lives in a very, very big house, and he has a big car. And this Guru Maharaj-ji, he has his own airplane.

Prabhupada: Guru Maharaj-ji has got?

Ramesvara: He had his own airplane, which they had to sell.

Hari-sauri: That fat boy, Guru Maharaj-ji.

Prabhupada: No, he had. So what is his position now?

Ramesvara: His family has called him a false guru. So there's a slip.

Prabhupada: His mother.

Hari-sauri: What was the effect of that?

Ramesvara: He lost a lot of his following. The main ones... There are a few small ones. Moon, Reverend Moon, he is a big demon, and they're attacking him, so that's good. But then they try to make us to be just like him. I've heard them say that you have a big penthouse in Los Angeles, and you always drive in Rolls Royces. I've heard these things, but we...

Prabhupada: Yes, I heard all this. In Germany they accused me. You told me.

Hamsaduta: Yes, they also say that you're enjoying all this money.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Hari-sauri: Harikesa said that if they're successful in their prosecution against Hamsaduta, then they'll prosecute yourself, one leader to the other. They say that the leaders are manipulating, and the other ones are just robots.

Trivikrama: Yes, we're all robots.

Ramesvara: Whenever they meet a devotee who appears to be intelligent and not have any symptoms of being brainwashed, they accuse him of being one of the leaders. If I'm debating with one of them, or if any devotee, and they see he's very intelligent, they say, "But you are one of the leaders."

Prabhupada: Certainly that is a fact. (laughter) All GBC, they are leaders.

Jagadisa: So you're not brainwashed.

Ramesvara: No, the leaders are the ones who are brainwashing everyone else.

Hari-sauri: But then if someone becomes a leader...

Ramesvara: Then they say, "The next best thing to do after you get the deprogramming is to hold a press conference to explain all the reasons that there is a need for criminal conviction of destructive cult leaders. Have ex-victims, especially of Hare Krsna, present. The truth of their personal experiences carry great weight with reporters. It is now necessary to awaken America to how widespread..."

Prabhupada: I... In the beginning... I have told many times when I first went that "If I say these prohibitions, who will accept?" And now it has taken a shape, it has become a problem throughout the country. I was thinking, "Who will hear me? As soon as I'll say this, they'll say, 'Go home.' " But by Krsna's arrangement it has become a problem. That is Krsna's grace. It has become a problem for them; it is success for me. Yes. I presented something which is now a problem for them.

Jagadisa: They waited too long. They didn't tell you to go home soon enough.

Prabhupada: (chuckles) No, my creed is at their home.

Jagadisa: You planted seeds in their home.

Ramesvara: Sometimes they capture... Very rarely they capture one of our members and they convince him to leave. And after they convince him to leave our movement, then they tell him many lies about us. And then he goes on television and tells the American public that we brainwashed him. So sometimes they get some of our ex-members to speak against us. This is going on. In Los Angeles I have met three ex-devotees who viciously lie about us.

Prabhupada: Who is he?

Ramesvara: Just minor devo... They're never leaders.

Jagadisa: Initiated?

Ramesvara: One girl. And they're vicious, very hateful. Because they are constantly being told that we are evil.

Prabhupada: Nitai has gone there to do it? (chuckles) No.

Ramesvara: No. I think... Last I heard he was still in Vrndavana area.

Prabhupada: If he is in Vrndavana, that is good for him.

Ramesvara: He is crazy.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: Then it says, "Other things need to be done. We have to get supportive comments from professionals and authorities in areas of religion, education, mental health and physical health, law, and sociology. Statements by experts and professionals carry a lot of weight."

Prabhupada: That is in our side.

Ramesvara: "Ask your contact to comment or express his opinion of such things as that this is not a matter of religion; that there is resulting mental and physical harm; the right of self-determination means the right to have a free mind; destruction of the family unit..."

Prabhupada: So if one has the right to have a free mind, why he cannot chant Hare Krsna?

Ramesvara: Well, their argument is that we do not allow him to consider alternatives.

Prabhupada: Then where is the question of a free mind? That means you brainwash.

Ramesvara: Exactly.

Prabhupada: Free mind means everyone has the right. That is free mind. If you force something, then where is the free mind?

Ramesvara: So actually they are understanding that once you chant Hare Krsna, you will stop thinking about maya.

Prabhupada: They're admitting.

Ramesvara: They understand that... Their claim is that this chanting of Hare Krsna...

Prabhupada: Is dangerous. (laughs)

Ramesvara: ...is dangerous because it makes you stop thinking about so many other things. That is their...

Prabhupada: That is our victory. That is victory because Narottama dasa Thakura said that visaya visanale, diba-nisi hiya jwale, taribare na koinu upay, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nama sankirtana, rati na janmilo kene tay: "This material world is the burning fire of anxiety. So in order to get rid of it, we have to take shelter of Hare Krsna mantra, which is imported from the spiritual sky." That is a fact. So as soon as you take shelter of Hare Krsna, naturally we are relieved from this blazing fire of material existence. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Finished. Bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. Maha-davagni, this fire of material existence, finished. That's a fact. So they have pointed out. This circumstance, it is good. Yes. That is the position. Yes. Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends that. In order to get rid of this blazing fire, harer nama harer nama harer nama eva kevalam [Cc. Adi 17.21]: chant Hare Krsna.

Ramesvara: Anyway, this goes on, but then what they're saying is there has to be a very big case where a cult leader of Hare Krsna is sentenced to jail. So they're writing to say that "Now we have to find lawyers who will be willing to take up this cause very inexpensively."

Prabhupada: That means there is no money.

Ramesvara: But one recent development which will change that is that they have appealed to the government that they are an educational group. Therefore they should be tax exempt like any other educational organization, and the government has agreed. Now they have gotten their tax exemption, so now these parents can donate lots of... Different people will start donating lots of money to them as tax write-offs. So I think that we will see that their activities will be expanded this year, because now they are tax exempt, they'll get a lot of money.

Hari-sauri: That news article said that someone had given them $105,000. Some parents of a cult...

Prabhupada: No, there are rich parents. They can do that. And every parent is unhappy. (chuckles)

Ramesvara: The fighting will increase this year. It's getting very acute, as you said in that letter.

Prabhupada: So they are feeling the strength of Hare Krsna.

Ramesvara: We're becoming the main target. Formerly it was this Reverend Moon, but his movement has been..., so many scandals, that it is beginning to lose its appeal to people. So now we are the main target faced. That is the most significant thing about this newsletter, that they are saying that "Formerly Reverend Moon... But he has already been exposed. So now let us direct all our energy against Hare Krsna."

Prabhupada: But they do not know whom to expose. That they do not know. That's nice.

Ramesvara: They are making it possible for us to preach in all the TVs, radios, and newspapers.

Prabhupada: (chuckles) That is our opportunity. The governor has invited.

Jagadisa: In the Krsna book, after Krsna told Rukmini that He would have to leave her...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jagadisa: ...then she was speaking to Him and saying that "You say that no one can understand Your activities. And also no one can understand the activities of Your devotee." So nobody knows what we're doing. They all put some psychological name, but they can't grasp the essence of Krsna consciousness. So they're afraid.

Ramesvara: One of their big charges is that when we go out and distribute our books we are very aggressive, and therefore it is a sign that we are not actually religious.

Prabhupada: Every salesman must be aggressive. That is a qualification.

Ramesvara: They say we are interfering with the right of the person. He doesn't want to speak to us, but we insist that he speak to us.

Prabhupada: That is salesman's qualification. Nobody is dying for our book, but if we can create market for our book, that is our qualification.

Ramesvara: So then they will say, "Then that means you are not a religion. You're simply a business."

Prabhupada: Yes. From business side... Religion means we are expert in every way. We can cheat also very nicely, which you cannot do. That is religion, expert in everything. Sad-aisvarya-purnah. And Krsna says that "Amongst the cheaters, I am the greatest cheat."

Hamsaduta: They think religious people should be fools.

Prabhupada: Yes, but our religion is not that. The most intelligent man can be religious.

Hamsaduta: They should be fools, and they should be poor. And we are neither fools nor poor.

Prabhupada: (chuckles) Yes.

Ramesvara: We always answer their charge that "You are saying that all the people are being upset by us, but actually the proof is that we are getting so many letters every day, hundreds of letters, and all these letters, no complaints. Simply they want more information. They want to order all our books. So from our mail order we can see that these people are writing to us because they have been sold books on the street."

Prabhupada: So these letters are important. You can publish these letters in book. Those who are ordering our books, they...

Ramesvara: Also, when we tell them, "Our magazine used to sell two hundred thousand copies a month, now it is selling five hundred thousand, seven hundred fifty thousand, some months one million copies. so that means the public is..."

Prabhupada: Yes. Becoming more interested. So let us go on fighting with Krsna consciousness. There is no disappointment. Yudhyasva mam anusmara [Bg. 8.7]. We shall fight and chant Hare Krsna. Then everything is all right. We cannot stop fighting.

Ramesvara: Actually, one argument that they use... They have found an old Back to Godhead article that I think you wrote, Srila Prabhupada. It was about Arjuna's position during the battle of Kuruksetra, where he had to fight against his relatives. You were commenting that "So sometimes you may have to even kill your family members for Krsna." So they take this magazine article, and they say that "Hare Krsna leaders are teaching all the devotees to kill their parents." So this is an example of how they will distort everything.

Prabhupada: That... You can distort anything. If there is expert distortion, it is...

Trivikrama: We can kill our parents even, like Prahlada.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is actually required. Prahlada did not protest. It is a great sin, if your father is being killed before you, if you do not protest even, "Why you are killing?" not to give protection. But even if you do not, then you are not worthy son. So in that way Prahlada Maharaja was accused that in his presence his father was being killed. He did not protest, neither he... Rather, he was ready with the garland: (laughter) "As soon as my father is killed, immediately garland the Lord." So that is not the fact. And he is... Later on, he requested that "My father was a great offender. So kindly give him protection." So he's not..., that son. He knows... He knew that this, "My father is being killed by the nails of my Lord. It is his great fortune." Why shall he protest? He's seeing that "My father is being released from this material existence." Why shall he protest? And still to confirm it, he requested the Lord that "This, my rascal father made so many offenses..." But for him he did not ask anything, but he's such a good son that for demon father he requested. So how much faithful son he was, this is the proof. Not that he was unfaithful to him. He knew it, that "Let my father's body be separated from his soul by the Lord. That is good for him." And still to confirm it he personally requested that "My father may be excused." "Why your father? Your father's father, his father, everyone, up to fourteen generations."

Jagadisa: Paropakara.

Prabhupada: So to become devotee means to do the best service to the family. If there is one devotee in the family, all the forefathers, they are delivered. So anyway, don't be disappointed. Go on fighting and chant Hare Krsna. Everything will be right. There is no cause of disappointment.

Ramesvara: Actually the field now for preaching in America is better than ever. More people are becoming interested to hear what we are and what our message is than ever before because of all this controversy. Whenever something is making newspapers that is confusing or controversial, they immediately want to hear about it because they have a tendency to look for faults.

Prabhupada: That is everywhere.

Ramesvara: But they're very eager to have us come to the colleges and high schools...

Prabhupada: Envious.

Ramesvara: ...to speak. It's much easier now to get lecturing engagements than ever before. They are after us to give our lectures.

Prabhupada: So why not engage Brahmananda in that business?

Ramesvara: I think he could do well.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: In New York or L.A. Wherever you think...

Prabhupada: Let him go to the colleges accompanied by some other.

Ramesvara: I was thinking that especially right now, this time, is the prime time for preaching in America.

Prabhupada: Yes. Let as many sannyasis as possible. Sannyasi, brahmacari or grhastha, it doesn't matter.

Ramesvara: Cannot possibly cover all the territory.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Ramesvara: There's so much engagement in America right now.

Prabhupada: As far as possible, I think Brahmananda should be engaged with some assistant or some superior. Two. He should not be alone. That is the best solution.

Ramesvara: No one's giving engagements in New York. Now I have two people in L.A. beginning, Jagannath Suta.

Prabhupada: Then this kirtana... This is kirtana, speaking. Whatever little fault is there, that will be rectified.

Ramesvara: He'll like it too. Coming into America to help fight the demons.

Prabhupada: Yes. Immediately do that. This is conclusion. Engage him in preaching, and this is the opportunity. You said that "We require so many." Similarly, Madhudvisa can be engaged also in that way.

Ramesvara: Wow. I was thinking... I wrote him a letter. He was very happy to receive it. He posted it in the restaurant. I invited him to come to Los Angeles. I was encouraging him.

Prabhupada: That I am asking him from the very beginning, that he come.

Ramesvara: If he doesn't feel comfortable coming all the way to India, maybe I can invite him to Los Angeles.

Prabhupada: Yes. I have sent him telegram, Madhudvisa. I have sent him telegram that "You come."

Ramesvara: He may be too entangled to come right away.

Prabhupada: What is that entanglement?

Ramesvara: Well, he is not following all our principles.

Trivikrama: Women.

Ramesvara: He's got one woman friend.

Jagadisa: Govinda dasi says that he doesn't want to come to India.

Ramesvara: He thinks it's too austere. He needs something more gradual.

Hari-sauri: He never liked India.

Ramesvara: But this is a good idea.

Prabhupada: Then engage them.

Ramesvara: If he's willing, he could give speaking engagements. I tell you, America is just wide open.

Prabhupada: No, no. Why not take this... Suppose he is attracted by some woman. Let him dress like a gentleman and keep with the woman as husband and wife and preach. What is the wrong there? Whatever is done, you close up that chapter. Now you become a householder. There is no harm. And live as a gentleman householder and preach. But don't play duplicity in the dress of sannyasi to keep private relations. That is not good. That is duplicity. Better openly become a respectable householder and serve Krsna. Our service is main thing, either in this dress or that dress. So if you cannot keep yourself sincerely as a sannyasi, then get yourself married. But you cannot keep the girl as friend. That is also not good.

Jagadisa: But for Brahmananda, he may remain sannyasi? Brahmananda?

Prabhupada: That is his choice. But we say that "Don't be hypocrite." That's all. If he thinks now he'll be able to continue as a sannyasi, he'll not fall down, he'll be careful, let him continue. That will depend on his sincerity. But I say that if you cannot remain as a sannyasi, get yourself married, live like a gentleman and serve Krsna. Why should you give up Krsna's service? That is my point. As you want to live, any way, comfortably, do it. We never condemned grhasthas. If sannyasa is not suitable for you, you remain as a grhastha. What is the wrong there?

Jagadisa: I'm going to call him this evening.

Prabhupada: Why?

Ramesvara: Brahmananda.

Jagadisa: To give him direction.

Prabhupada: No, no, he's coming. Kirtanananda has gone.

Ramesvara: Kirtanananda has gone, but now they are a little confused what should be done next. They originally... The plan was that he was going to come here to be your secretary. So now they need some new instruction. So we thought Jagadisa could call and invite him to come to America to preach.

Prabhupada: That is better. That is better. To write some letters here, that is not so important. But if he can preach and he... At least, we are expecting... He's old sannyasi. He knows how to preach. Let him do that.

Jagadisa: So I'll suggest that he goes straight to America instead of coming here.

Prabhupada: If he's coming here, let him come. We shall talk together. There is no secrecy.

Jagadisa: I'll leave it up to him, as he prefers.

Prabhupada: Yes. If he's coming, don't stop him. That is...

Ramesvara: Srila Prabhupada, I've got a letter here from Jayadvaita and from Jagannatha dasa regarding some corrections. These are two books that are in production right now. So would it be all right to ask you them?

Prabhupada: What is that book? [break] Sarvatmana yah saranam saranyam. Factually Krsna is the ultimate shelter. If he has taken that shelter, he's free, immune. And that Krsna has confirmed here. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo... [Bg. 18.66]. If he's not Krsna conscious, then if he gives such a duty, he's liable to fall down. Therefore Krsna says aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayis... "Because you are giving up all other duties, don't think that you'll be liable to punishment. I'll give you protection." So the conclusion is: if one is not fully Krsna conscious, then he's obliged to do his duty. This is the easiest way to become free from all obligationto become Krsna conscious. That, I think, dusyanta-raja?

Pradyumna: Dusyanta-raja. Dusyanta-raja.

Prabhupada: Or Santanu. Santanu. Santanu Maharaja. He, in the presence of his elder brother, he became king. His elder brother left. So it was considered sinful. But he request his elder brother to come and take charge of the... He said, "No, I am not going." Then he took. Otherwise it was not in the proper order. Because Vedic injunction, that... (end)