January 9, 1977, Bombay
Prabhupada: That you'll find everywhere. There is no such thing.
Dr. Patel: Americans are more sophisticated. [break]
Prabhupada: They are thinking like that.
Dr. Patel: The court's ruling like that, then it will be...
Prabhupada: No, we have got our own fight. The thought-checking. "I am thinking of Krsna. Why you are checking me?" This will be our defense. Do you think Krsna-thinking is illegal and madness? Then you have to condemn the whole Hindu religion.
Trivikrama: Every religion.
Prabhupada: No. Krsna is taken as Hindu God. So I'm thinking of Hindu God. Why you are checking? [break] We are reading Bhagavad-gita and killing Krsna. This... Our national father is supposed to be a great devotee of Bhagavad-gita, but Krsna is killed. Why the government does not take it seriously? Gandhi wanted Bhagavad-gita as guide. Why they are not taking?
Dr. Patel: That is the Vaisnava (Hindi).
Prabhupada: That is all bogus. Bogus. Simply bogus. Politics. In Gandhi's asrama I saw not a single Vaisnava or Visnu or Krsna.
Dr. Patel: Photographs, you mean to say.
Prabhupada: Yes. "He's Vaisnava." Bogus.
Dr. Patel: He never visited any temple.
Prabhupada: Bogus! Simply politics.
Dr. Patel: He wanted to kill(?) other Muslims and all other... Especially untouchable.
Prabhupada: The people approached him that "Mahatmaji, you have got influence over the Muslims, why not stop cow-killing?" "I cannot touch on their religious principles." Just see. Cow-killing is religious? Their religious principle. If I say my father-killing, mother-killing is my religion, so Gandhi will say, "Yes, you can do that. Nonviolent." Kill nonviolent. This nonsense contradiction can be tolerated by the fools and rascals. That's all. That is... Nonviolence, at the same time cow-killing. This rascal, another rascal... You are observing Buddha-jayanti and daily cow-killing. As if Buddha, Lord Buddha, recommended cow-killing.
Dr. Patel: Buddhists all eat, are meat-eaters the world over.
Prabhupada: Not a question of Buddhist. That is Christian, Hindus, everyone. Rascals. Lord Buddha, he was nonviolent, and this Jawaharlal Nehru was observing Buddha-jayanti and at the same time sanctioning cow-killing. What is that? Cow-killing. "What is wrong in eating meat?" He has said that. [break] ...advertising our movement. Everyone's asking, "What is this Hare Krsna?" That is the whole American people. Even if one did not know, he is "What is Hare Krsna?" And our books are selling, "What is this Krsna book?" So indirectly they're advertising. [break] Their greatest shock that "Our people being taught 'No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no intoxication.' Then where is our civilization?" This is their greatest shock. Any sane man can understand that this Hindu culture is being forcibly introduced.
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Must be. That is also the same person, meat-eating, how you can separate?
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) Free. Freedom. We have cherished that type of freedom in our country.
Prabhupada: No, they are thinking I am checking on their freedom. They eat meat. I say, "No, don't eat meat." So I am checking on their freedom. They'll take it in that way.
Jagadisa: It's called a fool's paradise.
Dr. Patel: These people must have sort of a false sense of superiority also because of that.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is another point. India is becoming superior.
Dr. Patel: (laughs) I think that is more...
Prabhupada: And her controlling this younger generation. That is another point of...
Dr. Patel: They're putting black man without any penny in his pocket, like that.
Prabhupada: In 1971 many papers astonished how one Indian is controlling so many white men. There, our paper became surprised. They cannot control even one white man.
Dr. Patel: This type of mental, sort of makeup, has been created after the industrial revolution, because...
Prabhupada: These German people have accused that "The old man is sitting in Los Angeles and he has engaged all these young boys and getting money from them." The German propaganda. They're thinking that way, that I have some mind control power, I engaged these young men and they're getting money and I am enjoying.
Trivikrama: Everyone judges others from their own standard.
Prabhupada: They're surprised, the neighboring people around our temple, "How do you live so comfortably? You have got so many cars and so nice house." But they are working hard like hogs and dogs and we are getting money without doing anything. They are envious.
Trivikrama: We invite them to come and join us.
Prabhupada: That they will not. Why there? Here also. They are envious for this Hare Krsna, but when you call, "You come and live here," that they will avoid. They're envious of my opulence, and when I say, invite, "You come also and join," "No. I'll rot as hog. That's all. I prefer this hoggish life."
Trivikrama: And the she-hog.
Dr. Patel: This will create a sort of a turmoil...
Prabhupada: It has already created.
Dr. Patel: ...America at this particular judgment.
Dr. Patel: It will create much more turmoil.
Prabhupada: The more they create turmoil, the more we become famous.
Hamsaduta: They say mind control and brainwashing, Srila Prabhupada, but actually that is what you are doing. You are cleaning our brain and teaching us how to control our minds.
Prabhupada: Yes. Our method is ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Yes, actually it is washing.
Dr. Patel: Brainwashing is very bad in India, not only in America but the whole world over.
Prabhupada: I condemn everyone, that "You are all dogs and hogs." And United Nations a pack of dogs barking. That's a fact. And in Chicago I said, all women, "You cannot have freedom. You have got only thirty-four-ounce brain, and man has got sixty-four-ounce." I told them. So I became a subject of very great criticism.
Trivikrama: Women's liberation.
Prabhupada: I denied, "No, you cannot have." I told them. One girl in the airship, she was seeing like (makes some gesture-laughter). I asked her, "Give me 7-Up." "It is locked now." So I frankly said that "No, no. You cannot have equal rights because your brain is thirty-four ounce." Actually that's a fact. Where is woman philosopher, mathematician, scientist? Not a single.
Dr. Patel: Apart from that, I mean, they are made for a particular mission.
Prabhupada: How they can have equal rights? Up to date in the history there is not a single woman who is a great scientist or great philosopher or great...
Dr. Patel: Madame Curie was a...
Prabhupada: All bogus. (laughter)
Dr. Patel: You are getting too harsh on them because...
Prabhupada: No, no. How can I give you equal rights, because your brain is less substance.
Dr. Patel: We cannot degrade our mothers that way.
Prabhupada: It is not degrading. It is accepting the actual fact.
Dr. Patel: These girls are misled, these American girls.
Prabhupada: There is no history. There is no history. Just like Kunti's mother. She produced so many heroes, but she was not hero. She could produce heroes like Arjuna, like Bhima. But not that she becomes hero.
Dr. Patel: Mother can produce heroes...
Dr. Patel: How can anybody say?
Prabhupada: That is... How you'll get the equal rights?
Prabhupada: You can produce. That is another thing. A cook can produce foodstuff suitable for rich man, but that does not mean he is rich man.
Dr. Patel: You argue. (laughs)
Hamsaduta: Prabhupada, you told one story about the animals having a meeting and trying to become free from the control of (indistinct).
Dr. Patel: Our sastras say (Sanskrit).
Prabhupada: (Sanskrit) Everyone is (Sanskrit). That is according to his position. That does not mean equal. Krsna Himself worshiped Sudama Vipra. That does not mean Sudama Vipra is as good as the Personality of Godhead. When Narada was coming in Dvaraka, Krsna immediately got down and... Narada was smiling, "Just see the fun." But etiquette. Narada never said that "I am better than Krsna or equal to Krsna." Never said.
Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone. Everyone knew their position. Therefore Krsna is addressed by Arjuna, "Acyuta, You promised to drive my chariot, therefore I'm asking You. Don't forget. You never deviate from Your promise." Acyuta. Senayor ubhayor madhye ratham sthapaya me 'cyuta [Bg. 1.21]. "Don't forget that You are Acyuta. Don't think that I am Your servant, I am ordering." He knows that "I am servant of Krsna. I am ordering Him."
Hamsaduta: You were explaining to that reporter in Pennsylvania, Srila Prabhupada, that actually this women's liberation is just a trick by the men.
Prabhupada: Yes! It is trick by the men, yes.
Dr. Patel: How... Could you explain that?
Prabhupada: Because if they remain free, they get young women free. That's rascal's man brain. That "You take freedom."
Dr. Patel: This is a third-class argument.
Prabhupada: This is argument! This is argument. This is fact. These rascals keep these women unmarried to enjoy daily new, new young women, these karmis, these rascals. There is club. There is club. These young women are paid for that topless, bottomless. You do not know.
Dr. Patel: No. I have never seen a girl naked. I refuse to...
Prabhupada: I have... I know everything.
Hamsaduta: Prabhupada, you gave the example that what is the use of keeping a cow if you can get milk in the marketplace.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Cow-keeping is expensive.
Dr. Patel: Why keep a cow when milk is available. (laughs)
Trivikrama: It's a fact. The young men think like that.
Prabhupada: They make pregnant and they go away. And this poor girl, either she has to kill the child or beg from the government, "Give me welfare; otherwise..." Is that freedom? These rascal woman...
Dr. Patel: This is freedom. Actually the government recognized...
Prabhupada: Government means a set of rascals. But practical point of view the woman wants equal right. Equal rights they enjoy, and the woman becomes pregnant, and he goes away, the boy. And she has to kill the child or beg from the government. This is her freedom. And still, equal rights. Where equal right? The boy has gone away. You also go away? No. You'll have to carry the child. To get freedom you have to kill or you have to beg. And still she thinks, "I am free."
Dr. Patel: Such experience (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Rather we are giving freedom, that "Never mind you have got illegitimate son. Come here. Live with us. Chant Hare Krsna."
Trivikrama: And by teaching them to be chaste...
Prabhupada: Yes. And teaching "Don't do it again." That's all. We are giving. And they are happy. My Godbrothers criticize that "You keep women in the temple." I tell them, "I cannot reject."
Dr. Patel: I was also thinking like that, today, I mean, presence I said, that Vaisnavas keep woman...
Prabhupada: It is different situation. I cannot reject anyone.
Dr. Patel: No, that's right. You are right. But this is a great affecting the boys down here. After all...
Prabhupada: But they are taught, "Don't be misled." But if they cannot, that (indistinct). I cannot deny. I cannot deny. I cannot say that "You are woman. You are condemned." I cannot.
Prabhupada: That is personally as a sannyasi, not that... He never said that women should be refused Krsna consciousness.
Dr. Patel: No. Nobody has said so. But they should not mix.
Prabhupada: Here in the Western country it is their custom to mix, intermingle freely. How can I stop it? I may stop in my temple, but they will do it outside. So it is impossible.
Jagadisa: Nowadays even in the universities, they allow the free mixing of boys and girls in the same dormitories. In the same dormitories.
Prabhupada: Same room.
Dr. Patel: In the same dormitories they live together you mean. Girls have no separate...
Jagadisa: Oh, yes. Free mixing.
Trivikrama: Same showers even. Bathroom the same.
Dr. Patel: Oh, were...
Prabhupada: Krsna gives freedom. Striyo sudras tatha vaisyas te 'pi yanti param. "Never mind. Chant Hare Krsna. Come on." Mam hi partha vyapasritya ye 'pi syuh papa [Bg. 9.32]. "Anyone. Come on. Chant Hare Krsna. Take prasada." This is my propaganda.
Dr. Patel: My mind is haunted by those (indistinct). There will be somebody...
Prabhupada: I know that I sincere to Krsna, He'll do the rest.
Dr. Patel: That is right. You have extreme faith.
Prabhupada: Faith means extreme faith. Not reserved. Faith does not mean any reservation. What is that? Bhajate mam ananya-bhak. This is... Ananya-bhak. No reservation. That is... Sadhur eva. He is sadhu. Whatever he does, it doesn't matter. Bhajate mam ananya-bhak. Sadhur eva sa mantavyah [Bg. 9.30]. He sadhu. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah, bhajanty ananya-manaso [Bg. 9.13]. These are the words. Require staunch faithful devotion. Then you are perfect. Then doesn't matter what you are, what you are doing. Whether the real point is fixed up. Bhajate mam ananya-bhak. Fifty percent, ten percent devotion...
Dr. Patel: Not even .001 percent reservation. I mean so far the bhakti's concerned. Bhaktya avyabhicarena.
Prabhupada: That is. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya [Bg. 14.26]. Even in the Brahman platform. Not in the material platform. Sa gunan samatitya. Sama-prakarena utitya(?). Cent percent utitya(?).
Dr. Patel: (indistinct)
Prabhupada: Yes. This is credit.
Dr. Patel: This is credit, and this is also, I mean, that this should happen also...
Prabhupada: Yes. Here is the right movement. This is the test.
Dr. Patel: If all that...
Prabhupada: Who cares for this Transcendental Meditation? They are not hogging any propaganda. It is coming this ear and going this ear. They don't care for it. So many others have gone. Who cares for them? They are not serious for Krsna consciousness, because they know it is changing the whole civilization.
Hamsaduta: There's that one verse you were saying, Srila Prabhupada, that so many Brahmas may come and go...
Prabhupada: Unless there is opposition, it is not genuine. It is not genuine or it is not serious. Opposition must be there. Krsna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead—there is opposition always, from the very beginning of His birth.
Dr. Patel: Krsna had all the opposition throughout His life.
Prabhupada: Throughout His life. That means genuine Supreme Lord. Before His birth.
Dr. Patel: Before, yes. And after, He was cursed (indistinct).
Prabhupada: Sisupala was His cousin-brother.
Dr. Patel: Cousin-brother. (Sanskrit) If you consider that, He rose against all odds. Greater the opposition, better you become.
Dr. Patel: You are right. With that extreme faith, Jesus took to the cross. Huh? [break]
Prabhupada: That is the greatness of the movement. [break]
Dr. Patel: We will be meeting with all people in the whole world. And you will be...
Prabhupada: Yes, I am the oldest.
Dr. Patel: (laughing) Keep in my hand and walk. And I would say, sir, that you also should not take bath in cold water.
Prabhupada: No, I don't take. I... Since 1970, 1966, '67, I am not taking cold bath. Before that, even in America I was taking twice cold water bath.
Dr. Patel: I have never taken cold water in my life.
Prabhupada: Shower I was taking.
Dr. Patel: All these boys take cold water, required from them.
Prabhupada: I never used hot water. In India the Delhi is the coldest part. In my business life, in the hotel I was taking cold water. Everyone was surprised. "How you can?" In Saharanpur, in bitter cold, I was taking cold water early in the morning.
Dr. Patel: This will be extreme cold in river. I have taken bath in the confluence four or five years back. It was not winter, but then it was... It is cold throughout the year because snow melt and keep water very cold.
Dr. Patel: During the times of Moguls you have seen all the pictures with the flag.
Prabhupada: That was the system. Our Pandit Jawaharlal was keeping one flag also, always.
Dr. Patel: But what prosperity India must have. Those people from Europe tried to find out India and went down there and found America. What prosperity they must have... What prosperity India must have then.
Prabhupada: India can have prosperity even now if they take their own culture.
Dr. Patel: No, even material prosperity I mean to say, sir.
Prabhupada: Material. Mind is also material.
Dr. Patel: Europeans came here for material prosperity.
Prabhupada: If you want satisfaction of the mind, that is material. That is not spiritual. Manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani.
Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. (Hindi) [break] Manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani. Mind and the senses, they're prakrti-sthani. They're not spiritual.
Dr. Patel: No, but, sir, if that is material...
Prabhupada: Yes. Mind is subtle matter. Bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir.... Bhinna prakrtir astadha [Bg. 7.4]. They are separated five material energies. Apareyam. They are inferior. Those who are in the mental platform, they are also inferior. The so-called philosopher, scientist and others, they are on the mental platform. Therefore they're inferior. Apareyam. These eight elements, those who are dealing with these eight elements, apara, inferior. And they are advertising that "We are superior." "The spiritual consciousness is brainwashed. We are superior." This is the fault. Of the inferior position, they are claiming superior position. Apareyam itas tu... And Krsna is giving practical example: "Apareyam: this is inferior. Beyond this there is a superior nature. What is that? Jiva bhuta." Immediately. And still the rascal cannot understand what is superior, inferior. (Indian lady converses in Hindi with Prabhupada) Chase after them, "Get out! Get out! Your visa is finished." (Hindi) Hundred cases. Hundred times hundred. (Hindi) [break]
Ramesvara: That is our argument.
Dr. Patel: It would be the brainwash. To have washed it against...
Prabhupada: I am thinking of Krsna, and if you stop me to think of Krsna, is it not going against my thought? Bhagavad-gita, it is recommended, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. So this is a standard thing. So I thinking of Krsna. Why you should stop me? Is it not infringement my freedom?
Ramesvara: They argue that they are not stopping you from thinking about Krsna. They want to stop you from being a member of the Hare Krsna movement.
Prabhupada: Why? If I have to think of Krsna, I must be member of the society. Otherwise how can I think of? Suppose if I have to do business, share business, I have to become a member of the share market.
Ramesvara: They say that the way the society is managed...
Prabhupada: You can say. But this is the system. If you have got some thought, you must mix with such similar thoughtful men. That is everywhere. The scholars, they associate; the medical men, they associate. How can you stop it?
Ramesvara: They don't think it's healthy.
Prabhupada: They may think anything nonsense, but this is practically going on. The medical men, they make their association. Especially in your country, unless one is member of the medical association he cannot practice.
Ramesvara: But the medical association does not take up twenty-four hours.
Prabhupada: No. Not only twenty-four hours, twenty-six hours.
Ramesvara: That is their charge, that it is too extreme. They say we isolate the devotees from the real world. We don't let them read newspapers, we don't let them...
Prabhupada: That is your real world, but you do not know what is reality. Your real world is this body. But this body is not real. That, you rascal, you cannot understand. Your reality is this body, but body not real.
Ramesvara: Even if this world is not real, temporarily it's real.
Prabhupada: Temporary, yes. So I am eternal. I must associate with eternity. Why shall I..., temporary. Suppose if somebody comes in India, American, that is his temporary residence. Why shall I accept India as everything? Similarly this body is another India or for Indian, American. It is temporary, asann, asat. Asann api klesada asa dehah [SB 5.5.4]. This body is temporary. That you have no knowledge. Why shall I be attached to the temporary things? I am the owner of the body, I am reality, so I must realize myself. Self-realization. This is self-realization, that "I am not this body, I am pure soul, Brahman." Aham brahmasmi.
Dr. Patel: Even Jesus said so.
Prabhupada: Christ said that if getting everything one loses his own soul... What is that?
Trivikrama: "What is the value?"
Prabhupada: "What is the value?"
Ramesvara: They would say that we are ignoring this world and retreating from it.
Prabhupada: We must! We must! You rascal! You do not know the science.
Trivikrama: They have their retreats and monasteries, Christians also.
Prabhupada: We must. That is the science. That is... You do not know, because your tail is cut you want others also to cut his tail.
Ramesvara: Their main charge is that we are deceptive. In other words, we tell people that we are like this, but actually we are different. They say we tell people we will make them more intelligent...
Prabhupada: If you are different, how the professors and scholars, they are accepting our (indistinct), they're taking our books?
Ramesvara: They say that's all right, but you practice differently than your books.
Prabhupada: No. Our book says man-mana bhava mad-bhakto. We always think of Krsna. We act according, strictly according to our books. That is our position.
Ramesvara: The book says that this is the highest consciousness. They say it is not complete, because it doesn't have anything to do with the real world.
Prabhupada: But we say that you are rascals. That's all.
Dr. Patel: If they say we have nothing to do with real world, where does the real world go when they are sleeping? (indistinct) I think that you must go for that. No? We must find out the full according to their own folly, not according to our reason.
Ramesvara: Just... The example of their charge of deception is that we are the Hare Krsnas, but when we go to sell our books we are in disguise. Therefore people do not know that they are giving money to the Hare Krsna movement. So they say our whole movement is like that in many different ways; we are tricking people.
Trivikrama: No, but the priests nowadays, they don't always wear the collar, because they want to feel comfortable with the people. They dress...
Ramesvara: They say "If people knew you were the Hare Krsna, they would not give you so much money."
Hamsaduta: Even the police, in order to catch a criminal, they sometimes go in disguise. They act as criminals, in order to catch a criminal. So we also have to do that. We have to act like demons sometimes.
Ramesvara: (laughing) To catch a demon.
Dr. Patel: These boys are very clever. (laughs)
Jagadisa: Vamanadeva also went in disguise. And Krsna, Bhima, and Arjuna went in disguise. They killed Jarasandha.
Hamsaduta: In the Srimad-Bhagavatam you wrote about Prahlada Maharaja, they tried to find out "Where are these Vaisnavas? They must be coming in disguise to teach the boys Hare Krsna."
Prabhupada: What is the wrong there?
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) American gangsters. You can't be gangsters. They will be gangsters.
Dr. Patel: You can't be gangsters. There is some difference between them and you.
Ramesvara: This scholar from Harvard University, he's explained it very nicely. He says that today Christianity and Judaism are materialistic, and the people who follow those religions have misunderstood their own faith, and the Hare Krsna movement is reminding them. And it is the work of God.
Prabhupada: How nice he has...
Ramesvara: His name is Dr. Harvey Cox. He is widely known all over the world as a leading Christian theologian. He has written many books. And he said that Christianity today is synonymous with profit, material gain, accumulation, performance, material success. So it has lost or it has forgotten its original message. And it takes something as exotic as the Hare Krsna movement from India to remind a Christian that there's another way of life, based on simplicity and truth and spirituality.
Prabhupada: He's right. And he's a very important man.
Ramesvara: He has joined this society to defend us. He's now traveling different places in the United States to speak on our behalf.
Prabhupada: He's serious gentleman. That is wanted. Krsna will help us.
Dr. Patel: Aldous Huxley is another, he's also very...
Trivikrama: He's dead.
Dr. Patel: He is dead. No? He is dead? How long?
Trivikrama: Since 1962.
Dr. Patel: I had no idea of it. I am reading his books thinking he is still alive.
Trivikrama: Aldous Huxley.
Prabhupada: Aldous Huxley. He is useless. Anyone connected with the Ramakrishna Mission is a useless. Immediately take it.
Dr. Patel: He was connected with Ramakrishna Mission.
Ramesvara: On one radio show they quoted from this Dr. Radhakrishnan that when you read Bhagavad-gita you should not think that Krsna is God. So then they say, "So even in India they reject this Hare Krsna movement." They say "Look, this is the president of India. He is saying do not take Krsna as God."
Prabhupada: So even in your own country, the priest talks crazily. We should reply that. Why do you go to India? In your country, your countrymen take it.
Ramesvara: Jesus was crucified in his own country.
Dr. Patel: By his own men.
Prabhupada: There is a Bengali proverb (Bengali). In a village, if a saintly person comes from outside, he is invited. And if a saintly person there is in the village, nobody cares for him.
Trivikrama: Yes. The Bible says the same.
Prabhupada: (laughs, repeats saying)
Dr. Patel: This will create some difficulty for your movement?
Prabhupada: We don't care for it. We will go on. Caravan will pass. Let the dogs bark.
Dr. Patel: The dogs may bite.
Prabhupada: No. Barking dog never bites. (laughter) They simply make their show. Neither they can bite. We shall go now? (end)
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