Morning Walk – January 8, 1977, Bombay

What will be benefit by this if I make my son a Vaisnava or a brahmana?

Prabhupada: Some sadhu went [indistinct].

Dr. Patel: No, no. I mean janesu abhijnesu. Abhijnah.

Prabhupada: Abhijnesu. Abhijnah means those who are in knowledge.

Dr. Patel: Knowledge.

Prabhupada: Abhijnata.

Dr. Patel: That means sat-saṅga. Instead of doing sat-saṅga, people go to Kumbha-mela... [laughs]

Prabhupada: No. Kumbha-mela is sat-saṅga. If you go to Kumbha-mela to find out a man of knowledge, then your Kumbha-mela is right. Otherwise, yad-buddhih salile sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. If one thinks that this salila, the water, to take bath in the water, is Kumbha-mela, he is a go-kharah. But the real yaj..., that "Now there are assembly of so many saintly persons. Let me take advantage of their knowledge," then he is intelligent.

[break] ...congress of highly learned saintly persons. People should take advantage.

Dr. Patel: To bring people together on discussion there are different groups, no?

Prabhupada: Still, you can go to different groups of saintly person. Different groups means brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti . There are some yogis, some jnanis, some bhaktas. They are of the same category, little difference. Otherwise...

Dr. Patel: By different ways they have reached the same goal.

Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmeti paramatmeti. Some of them are brahma-parayana; inclined to Brahman realization, some of them paramatma-parayana; inclined to Paramatma realization, some of them are bhakta; devotees of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It doesn't matter. But they're all spiritual. They have no interest in this material world. Tattva-vit. Tattva-vit. They know what is truth.

Dr. Patel: What is the history of this Kumbha-mela, sir?

Prabhupada: They say that Kumbha-mela is..., that spot is very sacred because Mohini-murti brought the nectar there.

Dr. Patel: But in India, Kumbha is..., Kumbha-mela ritually is...

Prabhupada: Kumbha, that kumbha means the waterpot.

Dr. Patel: Waterpot, yes. But at different places round the Nasik... Last year and...

Prabhupada: So might have been all these places.

Dr. Patel: Nasik and Ujjain and this-three places.

Prabhupada: How everything is nice. See the up, sky, how visala and how nice by Krsna. Purnam idam.

[break] The vrksa-yoni is condemned. By Krsna's arrangement the vrksas are also so nicely set up, it becomes beautiful.

Dr. Patel: They're all the representatives of Krsna's creation. This is perfect.

Prabhupada: Purnam. Purnam idam. Purnam adah .

Dr. Patel: It was a challenge to one scientist who taught nonsense...

Prabhupada: Yes. Well... What...?

Dr. Patel: One man challenged by me, a student, you know, "Sir, you said there is no God. Can you make a living cell even of a..., not of, much less animal, of a plant even?" And he just looked with open mouth. "Can you make a single cell living? Cell, like. Not of the whole tree." That is nature. That is God. That is Krsna. That [indistinct].

Prabhupada: Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantara-stham govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs 5.35]. Andantara-stha-paramanu-cayantarastham. Paramanu. Anu. Then paramanu means smaller than the atom. Six paramanus makes one anu. Atomic dimension is the combination of six paramanus. So in that paramanu also the Lord is there.

Dr. Patel: He made it, and then He entered into it. That is what the Veda says.

Prabhupada: Yes. Antara-stha. Yac-chakti... There is verse. The Paramatma, Paramatma is there. The whole human life is meant for understanding all this and glorifying the Lord. And they are wasting the life by imitating the hog. Nayam deho deha-bhajam nrloke kastan kaman arhate vid-bhujam ye [SB 5.5.1]. Vid-bhujam. Vid means stool; bhuja means eating. Yac-chaktir esa sa... What is that? There is a verse:

Dr. Patel: Jagad-anda-koti.

Prabhupada: Ekah. Ekah apy asya. Eko 'py asau racayitum jagad-anda-kotim. They create millions of universes.

Dr. Patel: But the standard of creation is the same, sir. That I believe of life. Wherever you see, it's the same. That is the greatness of God, that there is no change.

Prabhupada: So without that...

Dr. Patel: If you are an amoeba or a highest evolved man, the system of life is the same.

Prabhupada: Without...

Dr. Patel: That is the wonder of biology and science. That is where we wonder how great God has made the creation. That is where we feel the presence of God, or the real scientist. [break]

Prabhupada: ...if they believe. Some rascals, they say there is no God.

Dr. Patel: This Khorana, our Indian scientist we are [indistinct], he did this work and he felt aghast: "O God!" Because he had a background of ...

Prabhupada: Hindu.

Dr. Patel: ...religiosity there. Some fellows in America, they talk nonsense about this science: "It's all the chemicals." They believe in what we call that dialectical materialism: that it is a material arrangement which produces consciousness; it is not the consciousness which governs the material. [break]

Prabhupada: ...the brain is conscious?

Dr. Patel: First the God made the...

[break] ...no, but that is God. [break]

Prabhupada: ...adhoksaje. If you want to subsidence of anartha, bhakti-yogam adhoksaje. Anartham upasamam saksad bhakti-yogam adhoksaje, lokasyajana... [SB 1.7.6]. These rascals, they do not know. Ajanatah. Vidvams cakre satvata-samhitam. Therefore Vyasadeva made this satvata-samhita for these rascals and fools. Satyam param dhimahi, janmady asya yatah [SB 1.1.1]. This is the beginning of Srimad Bhagavatam. The origin of everything, anvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah sva-rat. [japa]

[break] There is a very big-what is called-conspiracy against us.

Dr. Patel: Here in America. Yesterday I read about that cutting paper.

Prabhupada: No, no. One secret letter they have, how they are making conspiracy.

Dr. Patel: By the Church.

Prabhupada: Not by the Church.

Dr. Patel: By the society.

Prabhupada: Now they are determined to cut down this movement.

Dr. Patel: They don't like their boys, I mean, getting a better understanding of the life and living a pious life. They want them to be...

Prabhupada: Not here!

Dr. Patel: Here it is different, sir. I mean, we can't compare India with those people. Here we see still there is some signs of...

Prabhupada: I wanted to start this movement. I requested so many friends, "Give me your one son." Nobody.

Jagadisa: Hamsaduta was describing...

Prabhupada: "Swamiji, [Transl. What is the use of this?"]

Jagadisa: What does that mean?

Prabhupada: "What will be benefit by this if I make my son a Vaisnava or a brahmana?"

Dr. Patel: No, but Vaisnavas are born in the family. They did not become sadhus. Why should they?

Prabhupada: No, no. They do not give much importance to the movement.

Dr. Patel: That way.

Jagadisa: Hamsaduta Maharaja was describing that while they were traveling kirtana, in one village one of the village boys wanted to join them. So he was living with them, and they were arrested by the village people and detained, and the boy was sent home, because of the same thing.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jagadisa: Here in India also.

Dr. Patel: What is that conspiracy, sir, in America?

Prabhupada: They are planning how to stop this movement in so many ways.

Dr. Patel: By some sort of physical assault or something like...

Prabhupada: Not physical, but...

Trivikrama: Legal.

Jagadisa: Propaganda.

Prabhupada: Propaganda.

Dr. Patel: The Americans, I mean, always doing like that. There are lot of bad persons.

Prabhupada: Well, there are good and bad every place. They are most of them are... Manusyanam sahasresu [Bg 7.3]. This is Kali-yuga.

Dr. Patel: But I have read somewhere that some of the university professors of philosophy, they are, many of them are in your favor.

Prabhupada: Oh, yes, many.

Jagadisa: All the intelligent class.

Prabhupada: All intelligent, they are in favor.

Dr. Patel: And they will write in your favor.

Prabhupada: They're also grouping to defend us. They are also grouping.

Dr. Patel: That is more important. The fools may say anything, and dogs may bark.

Prabhupada: One priest, very famous priest all over the world, is in our favor, Mr. Cox. Who is that?

Jagadisa: Cox, yes. Harvey Cox.

Prabhupada: He is determined to defend this movement.

Dr. Patel: Methodist church?

Jagadisa: From Harvard.

Prabhupada: Harvard University.

Dr. Patel: In fact the Christianity is a bhagavata-dharma...

Prabhupada: No, it...

Dr. Patel: ...in a way.

Prabhupada: He has admitted that our Christianity has fallen. Here is the real religious system.

Dr. Patel: They have fallen into the trap. They have forgotten Christ's teachings.

Prabhupada: [greets someone] Hare Krsna. Jaya. [Transl. Is your health all right?]

[break]

Dr. Patel: ...what about me? You'll get up on horse?

Trivikrama: [indistinct-talking at same time as Mr. Patel]

Dr. Patel: [indistinct] That is enlightenment if you are younger generation. Just goes..., just speaks for the future of your country. Younger generation [indistinct]. [break]

Prabhupada: Above your and our.

Dr. Patel: That's right. I mean, that is... All religious scriptures are above endoubtment. It's meant for the humanity in general. And the Christianity is meant for humanity. Christ died for the humanity, not for a particular race or particular..., race. [break]

Prabhupada: Woman's nature is the same everywhere. In spite of your women being so elevated, Canakya Pandita has said, "You don't trust them." [laughter] Visvaso naiva kartavyah strisu raja-kulesu ca. That means nature is the same.

Dr. Patel: It is a system of customs. The society...

Prabhupada: And Urvasi was explaining Pururava about woman's nature.

Dr. Patel: That sanctity of sex, that is not to us.

Prabhupada: Fortunately, our men cannot have sex cult even up to the point of death.

Dr. Patel: Again you say… you don't allow me to say about. [laughs] You see, what I mean to say is that we have really forgotten.

Prabhupada: "Our," if you say, "our," so if one is sticking to the sex cult up to the point of death, he's not "our."

Dr. Patel: Sex cult... This is sex...

Prabhupada: Sex cult, yes. Grhamedhi. Who stick into family life, that is sex cult.

Dr. Patel: That's right. But then so many people take vows...

Prabhupada: It has no other meaning. It is a concession of sex. To remain in household life means a concession of sex.

Devotee: So now you are sixty-five...

Dr. Patel: No, that is not sex. I am prepared to oppose you for hear.

Prabhupada: No, I don't hear you; I hear the sastra.

Dr. Patel: No, but this is also sastra. Please let me...

Prabhupada: Yan maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham [SB 7.9.45].

Dr. Patel: [Transl. Sex life we take…]

Prabhupada: No, maithuna, but maithuna products. You are attached to your sons and daughters. That is also maithun product.

Dr. Patel: That way we are attached to our bodies.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is... Either maithuna... Just like Gandhi. Gandhi, the same thing, a bigger scale. Bigger scale. Maithuna product.

Dr. Patel: Our body is also maithuna product...

Prabhupada: That's all right, but that is the first instruction: "Don't be attached to this body." So if we remain attached up to the point of death to the maithuna or maithuna product, then the same illusion. That is said.

Dr. Patel: So you have to leave the body consciousness and become soul conscious perpetually. It is so many people...

Prabhupada: And that soul consciousness is Krsna consciousness.

Dr. Patel: That is what I am saying.

Prabhupada: Yes. So... But in the soul consciousness...

Dr. Patel: By becoming brahma-bhutah, you have to worship Para-brahman Krsna.

Prabhupada: Cent per cent Krsna consciousness is liberation. Hitva 'nyatha... [SB 2.10.6]

Dr. Patel: Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg 18.54].

Prabhupada: That is beginning.

Dr. Patel: He gets the highest bhakti. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati na kaṅksati, samah sarvesu... [Bg 18.54].

Prabhupada: No, brahma-bhutah... Where is that brahma-bhutah?

Dr. Patel: Then he mad-bhaktim labhate param. Then he gets the real... Otherwise body conscious people cannot do the bhakti without becoming brahma-bhutah. You cannot feel the bhakti.

Prabhupada: Brahma-bhutah. Everyone is sarira-bhutah.

Dr. Patel: That is what I was telling you. And everyone was sarire kunape tri-dhatuke. [SB 10.84.13]

Prabhupada: Yes. So unless one is brahma-bhutah, there is no question of advancing in spiritual life.

[break] ...undam parihrtya kartam.

Finished. No more duty. "I simply surrender to Krsna." He is liberated. Sarvatmana yah saranam saranyam gato mukundam parihrtya kartam. "I have no more duty." That is the brahma-bhutah stage, when one thinks prasannatma, "Why I am suffering this unnecessary...?"

[break] Devarsi-bhutapta-nrnam pitrnam [SB 11.5.41].

[break] Matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam [SB 7.5.30].

One, if he is grha-vrata, he goes to guru or not guru-he'll never be reformed. Grha-vratanam: one who has taken this vow that this home is everything, grha-vrata. Vrata means taken vow: "It is my only duty." Matir na krsne. He cannot place his mind unto Krsna, matir na krsne paratah svato va, either by good advice of guru or personal, svatah; na mithah, nor by meeting, sat-saṅga, so-called sat-saṅga, because the real disease is grha-vrata.

Dr. Patel: No, that is right, sir. But there are ideal grhastas...

Prabhupada: Yes. So the grha-vrata... If we keep ourself grha-vrata, then either guru or personally or by sat-saṅga, nothing will help us. Matir na krsne paratah svato va mitho 'bhipadyeta grha-vratanam. Why? Adanta-gobhir visatam tamisram punah punas carvita-carvananam [SB 7.5.30].

Devotee: Chewing the chewed.

Prabhupada: Chewing the chewed.

[break] Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya ye bahir-artha-maninah [SB 7.5.31]. If one is trying to be happy by material adjustment, that is durasaya. It will never be...

[break] Yavan na vrnita mahiyasam pada-rajobhisekam. Yavan na vrnita. [SB 7.5.32] Bhagavata sloka, each word, each line, concentrated. Vyasadeva's contribution, last thing, by Narada's upadesa. And this is the only means of anarthopasamam. You have created anarthas, and human life [greets someone: Aiye] is meant for arthadam. But....

[greets someone: Hare Krsna]

So therefore real Vedic civilization is that gradually we have to give up this grha-vrata position. At one time you must voluntarily give up. Although I do not like to give up, still, by the order of the sastra, one has to give up.

Pancasordhvam vanam vrajet. Vrajet means compulsory. Just like we accept so many things compulsory, similarly, to give up family attachment after fiftieth year, that is compulsory. We therefore invite all the compulsory-what is called-renouncement. Of course, nobody can go to the forest. That is not possible. They are not trained up as brahmacari. So this Hare Krsna Land-"Come on." All the vanaprasthas, they can live in this land or Vrndavana, Hyderabad, simply for bhagavad-bhajana and no other purpose. Anyabhilasita-sunyam [Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11], making all other purposes zero. Anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam [Cc Madhya 19.167].

Jnana and karma, these are bondage. Karmi, jnani, yogi-they are especially bewildered. They want something, but still they say that "I am now renounced." So long there is want, he cannot be renounced. Renounced means no more want. Svamin krtartho 'smi: "I am fully satisfied now. I don't want anything." Yam labdhva caparam labham manyate nadhikam tatah [Bg 6.22]. "I have got such a nice thing that I have no aspiration for getting any more." That is brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg 18.54]. Svamin krtartho 'smi.

So this is Vedic civilization, that at a certain stage one should forget that "I belong to this family, I belong to this society, I belong to this nation," and so on, there are. Sva-dhih kalatradisu [SB 10.84.13]. Sva-dhih: "My own men, my kinsmen." This is sva-dhih. And beginning from kalatradisu. Kalatra means wife. Wife is the beginning of expansion. From wife, child; from child to grandchild; grandchild to great-grandchild; and so on, so on. Stri means "which increases." Kalatradisu.

Indian lady: [Transl. Svamiji, kindly speak in Hindi. I don't follow English.]

Prabhupada: Eh?

Indian lady: [Transl. Explain in Hindi.]

Prabhupada: [Transl. But these people don't understand Hindi.]

Indian man: Swamiji, [Transl. I have got two questions from what you have just spoken.] I get two thoughts. Number one: having acquired a family, I am willing to renounce, but would I not be running away from the responsibility...

Prabhupada: What is that responsibility?

Indian man: ...in the name of Lord Krsna, for the bringing up and educating the children? And second thing...

Prabhupada: You cannot educate, neither you bring. This is maya. Do you think... Do you think that only in your presence your children will be happy? There are... Just see here in the corner, the father, mother, and the child is always, twenty-four hours, crying. Just see. The father, mother, is there. They are poor men, they are taking care, but still, the child is unhappy; it is crying twenty-four hours. There are many you'll find. So does it mean that in the presence of father, mother, a child is happy? Everyone is being conducted by his destiny. The father, mother may be there or may not be there; his destiny will go on. This is the law of nature. You see here. Do you mean to say, because that man is poor, he's not taking care of the child? Why the child is crying twenty-four hours? So if one child is made to cry by his destiny, even in the presence of his father, mother, he has to cry. Nobody can make him happy. So this is called illusion, that "I am doing." Ahaṅkara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg 3.27].

A rascal, he thinks like that. But it is not the fact. The fact is prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih. His destiny or her destiny is to suffer. So even though father, mother... Suppose a rich man's son is sick. He has engaged good physician, good doctor. Does it mean that he will guarantee life? Then what is the principle? Balasya neha saranam pitarau [SB 7.9.19].

Prahlada Maharaja said that "It is not a fact that when the children are under the protection of father and mother, he's secure." Tvad-upeksitanam: "If You neglect, that 'This child must cry; this child must die,' then even by the greatest care of the father and mother, he will die." So what is the use, saying that your duty? That is maya.

Indian man: Second thing is...

Prabhupada: No, first of all you understand this, then bring second thing-that you have no duty. Your only duty is to surrender to Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam [Bg 18.66]. That is your only duty. But because you are under the mental platform, you are creating duties. So..., but that also must be finished after certain age. That is compulsory, that "You are very good, responsible man. All right, do your duty up to this. No more duty. No more duty." So this "duty," "no duty," this is our creation. We are under fully control of the nature. But we have created our mental concoction: "This is duty. This is good. This is bad." That is our mano-dharma. Real dharma is sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam. This is real dharma. And everything is mano-dharma, mental creation. Therefore the Bhagavata in the beginning it is said that dharmah projjhita-kaitavo 'tra [SB 1.1.2]:

"This false dharma is rejected." These are all false dharmas. Real dharma is to surrender to Krsna. But it takes time. Therefore sat-saṅga is required. But actually real dharma is to become Krsna conscious and do everything anukulyena krsnanusilanam [Cc Madhya 19.167]. What Krsna wants, we must know it and do it. And this is real dharma.

Dr. Patel: How to know it?

Prabhupada: You can know from Krsna. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita. It is open to everyone. If you cannot understand, then go to guru. He will explain to you. "And how to know it?" you cannot say. "Keep to the left" is there. You cannot say that "I did not know the law." You have deviated. Why you have gone to the right? The signboard is there, "Keep to the left." You have gone to the right; you are criminal, must be punished. So Krsna comes personally, and He is giving instruction. How can you say "How to know?" This is criminal.

Dr. Patel: We should follow Bhagavad-gita.

Prabhupada: This is criminal to say that you do not know what to do; you do not see God. God has given the law. There is no question how to know. Know it! Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg 4.34]. Tad viddhi. Know it! Why you are neglecting? Tad viddhi. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. That if you do not... What is called? Ignorance of law is no excuse. You cannot say in the court, "Sir, I did not know the law." Aiye. You know or not know, you have violated the law; you must be punished. [greets someone] Hare Krsna. Sit down.

Indian lady: Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Han.

Trivikrama: Once you know, then everyone is benefited. Your family is not neglected.

Prabhupada: The ignorance of law... Why? Why this human form of life? To know. Why you do not try to know it? Then you must be punished. Krsna said, asraddhadhanah purusa [Bg 9.3]. "If you are neglectful to know," dharmasyasya paran-tapa, "this dharma, this science, this duty what I am giving..." Asraddadhanah: "Eh! Bhagavad-gita." Asraddadhanah. There is no sraddha. Rascals. "Then the result will be mam aprapya: he does not get Me." Then what is next? Nivartante: "He goes back." Where? Mrtyu-samsara-vartmani [Bg 9.3]: "Again in the cycle of birth and death, birth and death." Again, after millions and millions of years, he'll come, again get the chance of human body, another chance to know. So this is the chance to know. You cannot expect the dog will know, the cat will know. You have got, human being. You must know.

The signboard "Keep to the left" is meant for the human being. If the dog goes from right to the left, he is not to be punished, because he has no knowledge. This is common sense. But you cannot neglect. You are human being. You cannot say, "I did not see the signboard. I did not know the law. Therefore, by chance, I have violated." No. No "by chance." You must be punished. This is the responsibility of... Narottama dasa Thakura therefore sings, hari hari biphale, janama goṅainu: "I have wasted my time." How? Manusya-janama paiya, radha-krsna na bhajiya: "I got this human form of life. I did not know what is Radha-Krsna." Janiya suniya visa khainu: "Knowingly, I have taken poison."

A human being, if he does not become Krsna conscious, that means knowingly he is taking poison, and he must die. Janiya suniya visa khainu. Sometimes I do not know what is poison. Just like child does not know; he may take. But he'll not be excused. Even a child takes poison, it does not mean the nature's law will excuse him. No. But.... What to speak of child, a human being, if he takes poison, janiya suniya, then what is to be...? So in the human form of life, you cannot neglect the instruction of Bhagavan. Then you'll be punished-severe punishment. Tan aham dvisatah kruran ksipamy ajasram andha-yonisu [Bg 16.19].

Dr. Patel: You are thrown in the lower yonis.

Prabhupada: Lower? Yes, yes. Lower... That is mrtyu-samsara. Suppose next life I become dog. Then my becoming very big scientist, big lawyer, big this and that, everything finished. But that law is not in your hand. After death, you cannot say, "Mother Nature, you are giving this body. I don't like it." No. "It is not in your liking. It is My liking." Karmana daiva-netrena [SB 3.31.1].

When you are criminal, you are under the grip of the magistrate. If he puts you in jail, you cannot say that "I don't like." No. You like or not; you must go. Who cares for your liking? Therefore mudha. Prakrteh... Prakrti, the laws of nature, is working in its own way. Nobody can change it. But ahaṅkara-vimudhatma: those who are rascal, they are thinking, "I am independent. Whatever I like, I can do. There is no God. There is no law." Kartaham iti manyate [Bg 3.27]. That should be avoided, that I am not independent. So that knowledge is lacking at the present moment. "Whatever I think, I can do. It is private. Religion is private." And big, big svamis are supporting, "Yes, religion is your private."

Dr. Patel: Even the state says "Religion is your private..."

Prabhupada: Whatever... The rascal says. A rascal says. It is not private. No private-public. It is laws of nature. You have to abide by that. The nature's law is "Now winter. You have to cover your body." There is no second law. So that is wanting, that we are... The present defect is that every one of us under the laws of God or nature, whatever you say. And still, we are declaring independence. This is the defect. Prakrti-stho 'pi.

Sad-asad-janma. Why? Karanam guna-saṅgo 'sya. He's associating with the different modes of material of nature, infecting, and that is the cause one is born as demigod, one is born as dog; one is born as tree, one is born as human being. Karanam guna-saṅgo 'sya. Therefore we should associate with sat-saṅga. Sat-saṅga chadi kainu, asate vilasa, te karane lagila mora, karma bandha phansa. [Prarthana. Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura Song 41, Stanza 3] Because we have given up sat-saṅga-om tat sat-Krsna's saṅga, we are entangled in this asat-saṅga. And that is the cause of my karma-bandha phansa. Sat-saṅga chadi kainu, asate vilasa: "I wanted to enjoy with asat." Asato ma sad gamaya. "Therefore I'm entangled."

Dr. Patel: Sat-saṅga is continuously coming in contact with such gurus like you or, I mean, reading that sastras, also is a sat-saṅga.

Prabhupada: But reading... By reading, you cannot understand. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Mundaka Upanisad 1.2.12]. That is also vidhilin: [Sanskrit verbal root as used to mean "Must".] "In order to understand that science, he must go to guru."

Dr. Patel: But, sir, instead of reading no books of knowledge, if you read Bhagavata or Bhagavad-gita, it is a sort of a sat-saṅga, and that develops. Someday he'll go to a guru. He'll find out.

Prabhupada: No, no. If he reads Bhagavata, he is not ordinary man.

Dr. Patel: He is on the way up.

Prabhupada: If he reads Srimad-Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita, he is not ordinary man.

Dr. Patel: He's a sat-saṅgi.

Prabhupada: Satam prasaṅgan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah [SB 3.25.25]. Rasayanah kathah. Unless you discuss Bhagavata, Bhagavad-gita, with sat-saṅga, devotees, it does not become relishable. Therefore he's not attached. Tad-vag-visargo janatagha-viplavah [SB 1.5.11]. In another verse.... Na yad vacas citra-padam harer yaso pragrnita karhicit [SB 1.5.10]. He may read one literature very decoratively written, very interesting, but there is no discussion about the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Yad vacah citra-padam, "Very decorative," na yad vacas citra-padam harer yaso pragrnita karhicit [SB 1.5.10], "but there is no glorification of the Lord." Tad vayasam tirtham: "Such kind of literature is enjoyable by such persons who are like crows."

Dr. Patel: Why?

Prabhupada: Crows.

Dr. Patel: Why, sir, crows?

Prabhupada: Crows, yes. Crows will never come to a nice place. They'll go to the filthy place, where everything rubbish is thrown out. The crow will take advantage of it: "Oh, here is enjoyable thing." Tad vayasam tirtham. So we have been educated to become vayasa, crows, useless black bird. There are other birds also, but these... Amongst the birds, these crows are most disliked by everyone. So our present literature and taste of literature is like that-crows. "Ka, ka, ka, ka, ka." Even amongst the birds, they'll find swan, white swan. And they're black crows. Nature's division is so nice. Na yad vacas citra-padam harer yaso pragrnita karhicit tad vayasam tirtham usanti manasa [SB 1.5.10]. That is rejected by the manasa. Manasa means the birds who live in the manas-sarovara, just like ducks and swans.

Dr. Patel: Hamsas.

Prabhupada: Hamsas. They live in a very nice, clean water, garden. Usanti manasa. They do not go there. Now they are making so much propaganda against our men, but these boys will never go to cinema. Usanti manasa. They are boys. They have no attraction, restaurant and cinema. You'll never find. Usanti manasa. They have rejected. And we see others-they are making line, queue. Yes. Why? Vayasam tirtham. They like that. Crows like... They have been educated like crows.

Dr. Patel: They feed on the filth. This is one difficulty. All people are mad after the cinema.

Prabhupada: They will wait four hours, five hours, standing. Why cinema? I have seen in London the British Museum. Something came there. From morning there is a queue. Exactly like that, they were standing to go and see the museum. Something came. I... Three, four years ago I saw. They were standing. Just like here, for purchasing the cinema ticket they are standing and eating múgaphall [roasted peanuts] [pronounced by Prabhupada moongphalee], just to see; eyesight. They will not come to see the Deity in the temple. They'll not come. Mentality is different. So it is a very dangerous civilization, soul-killing civilization. We should be very, very careful if we want success also. We shall go now? [end]